Six armed insectile wants to use crossbows

[TundraGlutton]

I have a character idea and some of it slapped together. The idea is a genetically dwarfed insectile kenku that uses crossbows. But now I am wracking my brain with nubs of fingers trying to optimize it class wise.

I had started with rogue to get proficiency with hand crossbow, maybe later upgrade to double hand crossbows. Figured fighter for the second and third levels for feats to get me going. But past that I cannot figure out a good progression to optimize the multi weapon damage.

The feats I have written down for a rough progression are:
Point blank
Weapon focus
Multi weapon
Crossbow sniper
Precise shot
Improved multi weapon

[pabelfly]

I don't get why you'd go Rogue for a weapon proficiency when you're doing Fighter the next two levels and get the same proficiency anyway. I'd probably pick Scout over Rogue - Skirmish damage is easier to trigger and there are some helpful bonus feats for an Archer.

So, are you allowed Flaws? And are you allowed Drag Mag content? Any disallowed books?

Without more information, I'd either go with something like Swift Hunter (Skirmish damage for damage boosts) or Fighter X (use bonus feats to pick up bonus damage like Weapon Specialization, Ranged Weapon Master, Crossbow Sniper and Dead Eye).

Your feat list isn't bad but you should add Rapid Shot. And remember Multiweapon Fighting progression is rough, you'll get Improved MWF at 9 BAB unless you go with builds like Swift Hunter or feat Ranger.

[Inevitability]

I don't get why you'd go Rogue for a weapon proficiency when you're doing Fighter the next two levels and get the same proficiency anyway. I'd probably pick Scout over Rogue - Skirmish damage is easier to trigger and there are some helpful bonus feats for an Archer.

So, are you allowed Flaws? And are you allowed Drag Mag content? Any disallowed books?

Without more information, I'd either go with something like Swift Hunter (Skirmish damage for damage boosts) or Fighter X (use bonus feats to pick up bonus damage like Weapon Specialization, Ranged Weapon Master, Crossbow Sniper and Dead Eye).

Your feat list isn't bad but you should add Rapid Shot. And remember Multiweapon Fighting progression is rough, you'll get Improved MWF at 9 BAB unless you go with builds like Swift Hunter or feat Ranger.

Hand crossbows are exotic: fighters don't get proficiency unless they spend a feat.

[YellowJohn]

Drow of the Underdark has Hand Crossbow Focus; it's Weapon Focus (hand crossbows) and Rapid Reload (hand crossbow) in one feat.

With a one level dip into Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior), you can gain the ability to fire your hand crossbows in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity.

In the Dragon Compendium you will find the Deadeye feat; add your Dex to damage within 30' (immunity to critical hits applies).

Back to Drow of the Underdark, there is a fighter ACF: trade your heavy armour and exotic shield proficiency for +2 initiative and Dex to damage vs. flat footed foes (immunity to critical hits applies). Check with your DM; some read this as being drow only.

If you're getting one level of rogue, make sure you get at least 3. you'll be focussing on Dex so Uncanny Dodge is well worth a feat & a couple of hit points. The sneak attack, evasion, and skill points are just gravy.

While we're on the subject of sneak attack, the Craven feat (Champions of Ruin) lets you add your CHARACTER level to Sneak Attack. Be careful with this; you must not be immune to fear which may come back to bite you.

That's all I have off the top of my head :smallsmile:

[Gruftzwerg]

You want to dip at least a lvl into Urban Druid for Proficiency: Crossbow (any)
By RAW, this would include any exotic crossbows like handcrossbow and double handcrossbow. Imho this is to good to pass. Saves you a bunch of feats.

Have a look at my El Mariachi (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609902-El-Mariachi-dual-double-handcrossbow-action) build. It has some optimization for dual double-hand-crossbows in it and some magic for making enemies flat-footed and some healing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ballistas are considered crossbows.

And the sizing/morphing weapon combo is a thing.

Just sayin'...

[Darg]

5 self-loading heavy crossbows with the quick-loading ability or rapid reload. You only need one arm to swap between them to prevent the -4 penalty.

From here you just load up on weapon abilities: flaming, collision, splitting, etc. Enhancement bonus can be given with magic weapon.

[TundraGlutton]

I used rogue to get the hand crossbow proficiency. But if there is an urban archtype for druid that grant prof with all crossbows then I may opt for that at first level.

I am hesitant with skirmish just because of the 10' movement requirement. And with six arms and six crossbows I want to maximize the number of attacks I can make since my damage is low with each. Is there a way to increase the side step from 5' to 10 or 15? Or maybe a way of getting an extra move action a round?

As for the drow of the underdark I would prefer to stay with the genetically dwarfed insectile kenku for the race. This is entirely due to silly flavour and imagery.

The only flaw the character has is that genetic dwarfism, making the character smaller than those of its race. This was done to get size bonus to dex, AC, Attack. But I may be able to convince the GM to allow more.

[TundraGlutton]

5 self-loading heavy crossbows with the quick-loading ability or rapid reload. You only need one arm to swap between them to prevent the -4 penalty.

From here you just load up on weapon abilities: flaming, collision, splitting, etc. Enhancement bonus can be given with magic weapon.

Would it be possible to use unseen servent or mage hand to offset the required second hand?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hank's energy bow creates its own ammunition. You could add morphing/sizing to several copies of that and have them all make their own ammo. No reloading necessary. Then if you want to save a lot of money on additional weapon abilities, use weapon augment crystals from the Magic Item Compendium. Vastly cheaper to get things like +1d6 energy damage that way. (Add several augment crystal abilities together on a single item as per the rules in the MIC to make several more powerful weapon augment crystals.)


Hank's Energy Bow
Price: 22,600 gp
Body Slot: - (held)
Caster Level: 6th
Aura: Moderate (DC 18) evocation
Activation: See below
Weight: 3lb.

Simply drawing your fingers in the air near this finely crafted bow causes it to be strung with an arrow of glimmering energy.

Hank’s energy bow acts as a +2 composite longbow that accommodates a user of any Strength. Although unstrung, it fires arrows of pure magical force that deal 2d6 points of damage. As they are force effects, the arrows do not suffer a miss chance when used against incorporeal creatures. The bow can be used to fire normal or magic arrows, but in such cases the bow does not confer its damage due to force. When drawn, the energy bow sheds light like a torch.

In addition, you can use the bow to make power shots. To do so, before making attack rolls, choose a number to subtract from your attack rolls up to your base attack and add this same number to the damage dealt by the bow with any attack that hits. The penalty on attack rolls and bonus on damage rolls last until your next turn.

Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, magic missile.
Cost to Create: 11,500 gp, 888 XP, 23 days.Just make it a +1 bow to make it cheaper, then purchase 6 copies of it.

[TundraGlutton]

Drow of the Underdark has Hand Crossbow Focus; it's Weapon Focus (hand crossbows) and Rapid Reload (hand crossbow) in one feat.

With a one level dip into Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior), you can gain the ability to fire your hand crossbows in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity.

In the Dragon Compendium you will find the Deadeye feat; add your Dex to damage within 30' (immunity to critical hits applies).

Back to Drow of the Underdark, there is a fighter ACF: trade your heavy armour and exotic shield proficiency for +2 initiative and Dex to damage vs. flat footed foes (immunity to critical hits applies). Check with your DM; some read this as being drow only.

If you're getting one level of rogue, make sure you get at least 3. you'll be focussing on Dex so Uncanny Dodge is well worth a feat & a couple of hit points. The sneak attack, evasion, and skill points are just gravy.

While we're on the subject of sneak attack, the Craven feat (Champions of Ruin) lets you add your CHARACTER level to Sneak Attack. Be careful with this; you must not be immune to fear which may come back to bite you.

That's all I have off the top of my head :smallsmile:

I looked at "drow of the underdark" I had thought it was a race option. But the drow fighter may be a good option as well.

Thank you for your suggestion and sorry for my stupidity.

[YellowJohn]

I used rogue to get the hand crossbow proficiency. But if there is an urban archtype for druid that grant prof with all crossbows then I may opt for that at first level.

I am hesitant with skirmish just because of the 10' movement requirement. And with six arms and six crossbows I want to maximize the number of attacks I can make since my damage is low with each. Is there a way to increase the side step from 5' to 10 or 15? Or maybe a way of getting an extra move action a round?

As for the drow of the underdark I would prefer to stay with the genetically dwarfed insectile kenku for the race. This is entirely due to silly flavour and imagery.

The only flaw the character has is that genetic dwarfism, making the character smaller than those of its race. This was done to get size bonus to dex, AC, Attack. But I may be able to convince the GM to allow more.

Urban druid is not druid; it's it's own class (found in the Dragon Compendium). It opens some fun casting options but nothing that really relates to your shtick and it's not full druid. I'd stick with Rogue, but you do you.

10 foot step... Oriental Adventures makes this a difficult Tumble check - DC30 IIRC. Dipping a level of monk allows the Training Dummy of The Master (Arms & Equipment guide), or for an actual move you could dip Cleric for Travel Devotion.

The DOTU stuff I mentioned: by my reading you don't have to be a Drow to take the ACF; my halfling crossbow archer has it. But I have seen it argued the other way on the forums so check with your DM. If you have a level of actual fighter you'd be trading stuff you won't use for something you will so at least ask the question.
You definitely don't have to be a drow to take the feat.

Edit to add: Swordsage'd.
And there's no stupidity in your post :smallsmile:

[YellowJohn]

While I'm here, four levels of Fighter let's you get Weapon Specialisation into Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHB2). RWM is +2 to hit and damage with all piercing ranged weapons and an extra 20' to the range increment. See if your DM will allow Crossbow Sniper's increased Sneak Attack range to apply to Deadeye (& Hit & Run Tactics, if you go that way). There is a definite shortage of good prestige classes for archers, so more levels of fighter may be the optimum build.

[Gorthawar]

I don't know which level range you're playing but for a small character that just wants to stand and shoot this build is fairly straightforward and should tick most of your boxes by level 10.

Ranger1: Track, EWP: Hand Crossbow
Hit and Run Fighter 1: Hand Crossbow Focus
Fangshield Ranger 2: MWF, Crossbow Sniper
Fighter 2: PBS
Fighter 3:
Fighter 4: Weapon Spec, Precise Shot
Swordsage 1:
Swordsage 2:
Fighter 5: IMWF
Fighter 6: Ranged Weapon Mastery

The second level in swordsage gives you the giant killing stance for +2 to hit / +4 damage against anyone bigger than you. And most enemies in DND tend to be medium or larger. That way you get 8+1.5 Dex damage on your attacks vs flatfooted enemies and 8+0.5 Dex otherwise. You also get a bunch of useful maneuver to teleport, turn invisible, evade charges etc.

Furthermore you get some decent skill points for your ranger and swordsage levels to keep up stealth / perception skills.

[Darg]

Would it be possible to use unseen servent or mage hand to offset the required second hand?

Unseen servant requires liberal application of understanding to allow it. If unseen hand is an extension of yourself, sure. If unseen hand is an entity outside oneself that you command to perform actions as one would a creature, then no. Greater mage hand could do it; though it requires concentration. Need swift concentration to pull it off.


I looked at "drow of the underdark" I had thought it was a race option. But the drow fighter may be a good option as well.

Thank you for your suggestion and sorry for my stupidity.

It's hard to say it works for anything but a drow fighter. "Drow Fighter" is the title of the section, drow fighters are in the description of the section, drow fighters are in the description of the ACF itself. Chapter 2 of the book is titled and states that they are options for drow characters. As written it requires DM permission to allow anything in the chapter for any other character race. So definitely ask the DM.

[YellowJohn]

It's hard to say it works for anything but a drow fighter. "Drow Fighter" is the title of the section, drow fighters are in the description of the section, drow fighters are in the description of the ACF itself. Chapter 2 of the book is titled and states that they are options for drow characters. As written it requires DM permission to allow anything in the chapter for any other character race. So definitely ask the DM.
(Emphasis mine)


Ok, I think that's a step too far. It's The Drow Book, so everything has a drow flavour, but that doesn't automatically make it drow exclusive. The Character Options chapter of Races of the Dragon opens with a paragraph about how 'Dragonblood characters differ from other races', but I've yet to see anyone argue that these options are Dragonblood specific (except where they explicitly are, obviously).

The Alternate Class Features section in DotU starts:

Alternative class features are ways to customize a class by selecting abilities that best reflect a racial choice and character concept. Similar to substitution levels, they offer an option to the class features granted at a particular level. Alternate class features have no prerequisites; you simply select them at the proper levels in lieu of selecting the standard class features.
(Again, emphasis mine).


Anyway, that's the argument. Is the drow stuff just flavor because ACF's have no prerequisites? Or is it mechanical? We all agree it's whatever your DM decides & it costs nothing to try - what else were you going to do with your heavy armour and tower shield proficiencies?
If you want to be safe, write some interactions with The Drow into your backstory - either being an escaped drow slave, or your insectile hive has long running beef with a drow community & you picked up the enemy's tactics.

Edit to add: Whild the ACF in question is in the 'Drow Fighter' section, the ACF itself is called 'Hit and Run Tactics' - a style hardly unique to the drow.

[Rebel7284]

If you are allowed Dragon Magazine content, Exoticist fighter gets a bunch of exotic weapon proficiencies for free and, if I recall correctly, can be combined with the hit-and-run ACF too!

[TundraGlutton]

Thank you so much each and every one of you.

All the suggestions and information given was amazing and incredibly helpful.
I have used what I could, now I just have to see how it plays in the game and how progression through the levels will go.

Thanks again everyone!

[Railak]

Is that the insectile template from savage species?