Splitting levels and choosing archetypes for Fighter/Sorcerer

[Zabilac]

I'm planning on a Fighter/Sorcerer, but I'm unsure on where to split the levels and what their archetypes should be. I know sorcadin, sorlock, and bladesinger are mechanically better gishes, but fighter/sorcerer works best character-wise so I'm sticking with that. The character's someone who fights melee, but is also into blasting; like Urahara from Bleach, he can fight with his sword, but also shoot energy beams and use other kido. Based on what I've read, I thought maybe 5/x or 4/x might be a good place to split, but I'm open to other suggestions. For archetypes, I was thinking maybe Battle Master or Champion; Sorcerer, either Draconic or Storm.

Thank you for help in advance!

[Mastikator]

Definitely 5/x for extra attack.

Draconic is good for blasting (at sorc level 6), pick up empower and transmute for stronger blasting too, or quickened so you can attack and then bonus action cast spell. Quickened fireball and then into melee to mop up the survivors is respectable.

[Dork_Forge]

Generally speaking, you should either take a 1 level dip early or wait until 5th level with martial MCing. Personally, I prefer waiting until 6th level so you get Extra Attack and two ASIs in. For subclasses it really depends on how much casting you want to have on hand:

- Eldritch Knight would give you casting early on allowing you to wait to dip, it also lets your caster level keep increasing regardless which class you're currently pumping, you'd be best off choosing non stat using spells since this is Int.
- Battle Master is just generally solid and gives a big chunk of short rest resources
- Psi Warrior gives you some magicesque abilities that scale well when MCing, I can see this working well for the Bleach inspiration, but the downside is Int is more woven in to the effectiveness of the abilities.
- Rune Knight offers a lot of versatility and magical effects

- Divine Soul gives you access to Guiding Bolt for blasting and Favored by the Gods is just generally great. I'd lean toward this one myself.
- Dragon is good if you want to avoid armor
- Clockwork can help blast in adverse conditions by negating disadvantage

[Bobthewizard]

I like battle master for this. I think it gives the most at low levels. The main benefits of Eldritch knight (shield, absorb elements) are easily covered by one level of sorcerer, while battle master gives you something extra. I'd go straight fighter to level 5-6, then all sorcerer after that.

If you want sorcerer online earlier, you could just go one level of fighter, then use booming blade with sorcerer after that. After you get sorcerer to level 5, then you can go back and get action surge and battle master maneuvers if you want. I think the above option is more effective, but this might get you the character you want earlier and it works well enough.

[solidork]

Psi Warrior/Aberrant Mind seems like a natural fit. I don't know if its enough to pin a whole build to, but Samurai combined with spells that let you make a lot of attacks (like Scorching Ray) is interesting.

[Dork_Forge]

Psi Warrior/Aberrant Mind seems like a natural fit. I don't know if its enough to pin a whole build to, but Samurai combined with spells that let you make a lot of attacks (like Scorching Ray) is interesting.

Fighting Spirit only works with weapon attacks.

[Mastikator]

Another option to consider is blade singer wizard. You get full spell casting progression and spells at level 1, at level 2 you can go into melee. If you're worried about HP then high constitution and the tough feat can offset the low wizard hp.

[RogueJK]

I concur that Fighter 5 or 6/Sorcerer X is the best option, although you could consider a Fighter 2 or 3/Sorcerer X who relies on Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade to scale their lone attack, if you're wanting to be more of a blaster/caster and less of a melee combatant. This route gets your higher level sorcerer spells online sooner, at the cost of only having 1x SCAGtrip attack per turn (or 2x if you burn through Sorcery Points to Quicken a SCAGtrip for a BA attack, but that gets expensive).


Generally speaking, you should either take a 1 level dip early or wait until 5th level with martial MCing. Personally, I prefer waiting until 6th level so you get Extra Attack and two ASIs in.

While that's certainly true from an optimization standpoint, it's tough to wait until after Level 5 or 6 for your "sorcerous fighter" character to get any Sorcerer abilities. Therefore, I'd start Fighter, then take 1 level of Sorcerer at Level 2, and then beeline for Fighter 5 or 6. This also gets you a ranged cantrip online early on, so you're more capable at long range combat than a STR-based Fighter normally would be if relegated to hurling javelins. The 1 level delay to Extra Attack doesn't hurt as much since you can grab Booming Blade to help tide you over at Level 5, and then later still make use of BB with Quickened Spell every now and then for an occasional third BA melee attack.


For Sorcerer subclass, Clockwork Soul is the best option for additional defensive tankiness on a melee-centric Sorcerer multiclass, with their access to extra Abjuration and Transmutation spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard/Warlock spell list, on-demand Advantage/Disadvantage (which scales with Proficiency not Sorcerer level), plus eventually Bastion of Law's damage ward. Divine Soul would be another good choice, with their access to Cleric buff and defensive spells plus the +2d4 saving throw bonus, but that comes at the cost of missing out on Clockwork Soul's additional spells known per level, which effectively doubles the number of Sorcerer spells you know. So of the two, I'd definitely go with Clockwork Soul.

As for Fighter subclass, I'd go either Battle Master or Eldritch Knight. Battle Master gives you 4x d8 Maneuver Dice per short rest, including Commanding Presence that pairs well with your high CHA score. But I think the better option is Eldritch Knight, which gets you some additional cantrips and 1st level spells known, saving your pretty limited Sorcerer spells known for other stuff, plus also means you're 1-2 fewer levels behind in spell slots. And even though you're unlikely to have a high INT in conjunction with your high STR/CON/CHA, you can just pick utility and defensive EK spells that don't rely on your INT at all.


Here's an example build for a Level 11 PC going Eldritch Knight 6/Clockwork Soul 5:

Half-Drow
Fighter 1 -> Clockwork Soul Sorcerer 1 -> Eldritch Knight 6 -> Clockwork Soul 5
STR 15+1
DEX 8 or 10
CON 15+1
INT 8
WIS 10 or 8
CHA 14+2

Wear Heavy Armor and use a Greatsword

Fighting Style: Blind Fighting
Fighter Skills: Athletics, Intimidation
Background Skills: Persuasion, Deception
ASIs: 18 STR at Fighter 4, GWM at Fighter 6, 18 CHA at Sorcerer 4
Metamagics: Quickened and Careful

Spell Slots: 4/3/3/1
Racial Cantrip: Dancing Lights
Sorcerer Cantrips: Chill Touch, Mind Sliver, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth
Eldritch Knight Cantrips: Booming Blade, Message
Eldritch Knight Spells Known: Shield, Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Magic Missile
Clockwork Soul Spells Known: Protection from Evil*, Armor of Agathys* (swapped in for Alarm at Sorcerer 2), Aid*, Enhance Ability* (swapped in for Lesser Restoration at Sorcerer 3), Dispel Magic*, Counterspell* (swapped in for Protection from Energy at Sorcerer 5)
Sorcerer Spells Known: Thunderwave, Darkness, Web, Rime's Binding Ice, Fireball, Fly
Racial Spells (1x/day each): Faerie Fire, Darkness

You've got the Darkness+Blind Fighting combo online starting at Level 3 thanks to racial Darkness, eventually adding additional castings of Darkness starting at Sorcerer 3 when you learn it as a Sorcerer spell too. This D+BF combo, along with Faerie Fire and potentially the Help Action from your Familiar, all provide you frequent Advantage to help counteract your GWM attack penalty. Then you've got several different blasting spells beginning at Level 2 with Thunderwave, and eventually adding Rime's Binding Ice at Sorcerer 3 and Fireball at Sorcerer 5. You have two solid ranged damage options starting at Level 2 with Chill Touch and Mind Spike. And you've got a slew of buff and defensive spells, including adding Temp HP and damage with AoA, adding max HP (and picking up downed allies 30' away) with Aid, and protecting yourself with Protection from Evil, Shield, and Absorb Elements. You can Dispel and Counterspell. Plus you've got a 4th level slot for upcasting Fireball or Counterspell into. And you have a number of utility cantrips, plus utility spells like Fly and Enhance Ability. And you're an excellent Party Face too, thanks to Proficiency in all Face skills and a high CHA. Best of all, any of your buff/blast spells can be Quickened, to still allow you to make both of your Greatsword attacks. Or you can cast Mind Spike with your Action and immediately follow up with a blast spell to capitalize on the -1d4. Or when you really want to go off, you can Action Surge too, to do something like cast a Quickened Darkness and follow up with 4x GWM Greatsword attacks at Advantage, all in Turn 1.

(This build also works with the Levistus Tiefling race and their racial Darkness, if you're okay with having a lower CON and no Faerie Fire in exchange for an additional daily 1st level Armor of Agathys plus Fire Resistance.)

[Zabilac]

Generally speaking, you should either take a 1 level dip early or wait until 5th level with martial MCing. Personally, I prefer waiting until 6th level so you get Extra Attack and two ASIs in. For subclasses it really depends on how much casting you want to have on hand:

- Eldritch Knight would give you casting early on allowing you to wait to dip, it also lets your caster level keep increasing regardless which class you're currently pumping, you'd be best off choosing non stat using spells since this is Int.
- Battle Master is just generally solid and gives a big chunk of short rest resources
- Psi Warrior gives you some magicesque abilities that scale well when MCing, I can see this working well for the Bleach inspiration, but the downside is Int is more woven in to the effectiveness of the abilities.
- Rune Knight offers a lot of versatility and magical effects

- Divine Soul gives you access to Guiding Bolt for blasting and Favored by the Gods is just generally great. I'd lean toward this one myself.
- Dragon is good if you want to avoid armor
- Clockwork can help blast in adverse conditions by negating disadvantage

I considered Rune Knight, but I heard 5 is a "dead" level for it. I'd take Dragon mostly to avoid being squishy, but I have 15 CON and planning to bump it to 16 with Resilient so I think I'll be okay. Divine Soul sounds really interesting though!

[KorvinStarmast]

I considered Rune Knight, but I heard 5 is a "dead" level for it. I'd take Dragon mostly to avoid being squishy, but I have 15 CON and planning to bump it to 16 with Resilient so I think I'll be okay. Divine Soul sounds really interesting though!Why would you take Resilient CON? Both Fighter and Sorcerer have proficiency in CON saves already.
Level 5 is where you get Second Attack. How is that a dead level?

Divine soul is a nice package.

[Zabilac]

Why would you take Resilient CON? Both Fighter and Sorcerer have proficiency in CON saves already.
Level 5 is where you get Second Attack. How is that a dead level?

Divine soul is a nice package.

Ah, right. I was thinking in terms of a Wizard I watched someone play. My mistake. I don't know. It's just what I've read.

[Salmon343]

Honestly when considering Sorcerer gishes, a 2 level martial dip is pretty workable. Especially if your other half is not Paladin - i.e giving up some higher level slots, I'd be wary of going past 3. The SCAG cantrips (now TCE cantrips I guess?) Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade give you comparable damage output to Extra Attack with a weapon. The issue with using these cantrips over Extra Attack is reliability - like a non two weapon fighting rogue, you've only got one attack, so your damage output can be swingy. Sorcery Points come to the rescue here - Quickened Spell lets you make another attack as a bonus action (with Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade, so it's higher DPR on average). Seeking Spell lets you reroll for the same 2 SP cost, useful if you want your bonus action for other things.

I played a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 11 in an Eberron campaign, and didn't feel too hindered by missing Extra Attack. Don't sleep on having access to higher level slots too - being three Sorcerer levels ahead of an Extra Attacker means getting buffs like Haste and Greater Invisibility, and debuffs like Hold Monster a lot earlier. The ability to twin these means that you can buff another martial at the same time, or you can quicken these and still go in for a TCE cantrip. Action Surge means that you can double cast levelled spells in one turn, or triple TCE cantrip if you've got a strong tactical advantage (like a paralysed enemy that failed it's save on its turn). Essentially, Sorcery points means that Sorcerer gishes are less reliant on Extra Attack, and can better leverage their buffs and debuffs - making Action Surge stronger in their hands than in say, your friendly neighbourhood Bladesinger.

I'll recommend Fighter archetypes assuming you just go for three levels. Battlemaster is a pretty good choice. Because you typically only make one attack roll in the turn, just with lots of damage; maneuvers like Precision Attack and Feinting Attack gain a lot more value than for a traditional fighter. Honestly I've never explored this combination before making this post, and it looks pretty tasty. Rune Knight can also work as a more rogue choice. I'd avoid having to pump up an additional DC and pick Cloud Rune and Frost Rune. That'd give you short rest rechargable abilities of redirecting an enemy attack, or gaining +2 to Strength and Con(!) ability checks and saves for 10 minutes. Giant's Might is a pretty nifty feature to have also.

On the Sorcerer side, I'd recommend picking TCE or later subclasses, or Divine Soul. I've never been able to stomach making any other kind of Sorcerer, due to the egregiously low number of spells known - I can never get a build going which is both fun and thematic, and good. Divine Soul also suffers from the same problem, but the spell list is worth it.

[MukkTB]

If I had to do the class combination Fighter//Sorcerer... I think that I would consider Fighter 1 // Sorcerer X very seriously. Variant Human, or some kind of Mongrelman for race in order to get a feat at level 1: Polearm Master. Take quickened spell at level 4 when you get metamagic so you can bonus action out a booming blade or green flame blade. And at level 5 take war caster for your concentration saves and the synergy with polearm master. (This combination can get very cheesy. But I would argue that we aren't abusing it hard in these circumstances.)

A 1 level martial dip off main spellcaster isn't an awful trade. You're pretty close to the effectiveness of a full caster, doing all the things that make full casters great. Fireball the baddies 1 level late at 6. Cool. But you can also quicken out a green flame blade right after the fireball. And if any of the crispy guys try to take revenge by running at you with a sword, you can do another flaming stab with your reaction when they provoke an attack of opportunity. All while wearing stylish heavy armor.

Pick a Sorcerer Origin that fits the theme of the character. Clockwork is strong mechanically with the extra spells. But fairly weak flavorwise most of the time. If you want to be a blaster, consider asking your DM if Transmuted Spell is an allowable metamagic pick. The build should manage the fantasy of being in the middle of combat stabbing and blasting things nicely enough. It shouldn't be so strong that it overshadows anybody. It isn't doing the really cheesy things you can accomplish with polearm master and warcaster - but it does open the door to them so I'd talk to the DM about it beforehand.

[Dork_Forge]

While that's certainly true from an optimization standpoint, it's tough to wait until after Level 5 or 6 for your "sorcerous fighter" character to get any Sorcerer abilities. Therefore, I'd start Fighter, then take 1 level of Sorcerer at Level 2, and then beeline for Fighter 5 or 6. This also gets you a ranged cantrip online early on, so you're more capable at long range combat than a STR-based Fighter normally would be if relegated to hurling javelins. The 1 level delay to Extra Attack doesn't hurt as much since you can grab Booming Blade to help tide you over at Level 5, and then later still make use of BB with Quickened Spell every now and then for an occasional third BA melee attack.


So... you agree with me then? I said one level early on (like you propose here) or wait until 5/6.


I considered Rune Knight, but I heard 5 is a "dead" level for it. I'd take Dragon mostly to avoid being squishy, but I have 15 CON and planning to bump it to 16 with Resilient so I think I'll be okay. Divine Soul sounds really interesting though!

5th level for Fighters has nothing to do with subclass, the only time Fighter 5 is a dead level is in multiclasses where you've already gained Extra Attack from elsewhere.

As Korvin pointed out, Resilient is redundant on this MC combination no matter how you build it. If you want to bump an odd Con with a feat, I'd recommend that you look at the weapon feats from Tasha's, Crusher would give you a +1 Con.

[RogueJK]

So... you agree with me then?

No, because you followed that with your preference being waiting until Fighter 6 before multiclassing to Sorcerer, whereas my preference is to take a level of Sorcerer at Level 1 or 2, depending on whether you need Heavy Armor or not, in order to get at least a bit of Sorcerer online early on.

[Rolero]

For bonkers damage absortion. Go Goliaht (specially if MMotM rules are on the table) and then Rune Knight / Clockwork Sorcerer.

Start as a Fighter till you get second attack. Switch to sorcerer at least two levels to change one of the class spells with Armor of Agatys. Now you will have to decide if you want to bank more levels in your magic class to upgrade the spell as soon as possible, or go back to fighter for no more than two levels for the 7th level rune (hill giant for damage reduction) and an extra feat at 8th. The rest should go to sorcerer all the way.

Even with a 6/6 split, you get a lot from both classes. Between Goliath's stone endurance, Armor of Agatys and Bastion of Law, you can negate a lot of damage, tanking a hell of punishment on the frontlines. You can go two-handed without worries and let your damage sponge tools protect you.

[Skrum]

I would also plug the paladin 2/sorc X build. With quicken and twin, you can get 2 or even 3 attacks in a round if you really want to, or haste for your "extra attack." The downside is the lack of Con save proficiency, but the faster spell progression and Divine Smite are very strong. It's the best gish build IMO, and perfect for anime-inspired builds in particular.

If you're going to go fighter and take it all the way to 5, I'd probably favor pure Eldritch Knight. Getting your first sorcerer level at 6, idk, I mean I guess if the campaign is going to go into t3, that's still probably worth it, less then that....EK has more hit points, an extra feat, war magic, and gives the same low level spell utility.

Another option is something like ranger or paladin and then use a race like "Mark Of," earth genasi, yuan ti, githzerai, etc., that adds cool choice spells to your spell list. This'll make a more gimmicky-type spellcaster (like, focused on one particular tactic or two), but it also keeps you focused on one class. Again, depending on how far this game is going to go, I think there's a lot of value in prioritizing the build "working" as soon as possible.

Edit: sorry, I only skimmed your OP, didn't see that you'd already dismissed sorcadin xD. My bad.

So yeah, my recommendation is pure eldritch knight, with the caveat that if you know this game is going to involve 11, 12, 13th level or higher, fighter/sorc become a lot more attractive. In terms of subclasses, you kinda can't go wrong. All of the fighter subclasses (except champion) are very solid performers so pick something that fits your theme. Echo Knight is probably the most anime, FWIW, though it nominally adds another stat (con) that you really want to boost.

Sorc subclasses, again, can't really go wrong. Shadow or Favored Soul are off the top of my head the standouts. Favored Soul is probably the best sorc subclass, and Shadow has some neat toys that appeal to a martial characters in particular (and races that don't get dark vision). I actually really like the narrative pairing of Shadow Sorc and Echo Knight; there's some clear synergy there.

And lastly, the "options" are 1 level of fighter (heavy armor caster build), 2 levels of fighter (alpha strike caster), or 5 levels of fighter (gish). Idk where you saw that 4 levels is a good investment in fighter, but I would not recommend that.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

It's already been mentioned but yeah, your Fighter Level is going to be either 2, 3, or 5(I prefer 6 for the ASI as someone already said).

What level are you starting at? If you want the magic from the get go but you want to focus on melee and focus on, let's be honest, how Kisuke would have been trained to start with, just go Fighter to the break point you want and then tilt Sorc.

If you want magic early on Consider Eldritch Knight for Fighter, or, Magic Initiate as a Human/Custom Feat or take a Strixhaven background if available.

For terms of what the actual split levels mean.. Fighter 2 if you just need weapons and want Action Surge and a Fighting Style. Fighter 3 if you have a subclass you want.

Now the difference between that and doing the 5/6 choice is.. Are you going to rely on Extra attack or a Bladetrip? I could very easily see using Green Flame Blade and re-flavoring it into Benihime's screams and blasts. And if you go that route, then there's no reason to give up so much spellcasting pushing to Fighter 5 or 6.

If you are going to the Fighter 5 or 6 and you lean Eldritch Knight I would still hold on to level 7. Because then you get your Green Flame Blade and then a Bonus action normal swing.