OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[Liquor Box]

By doing nothing she was slowing them down. They were grinding away at the dungeons and getting nowhere, especially after MitD started Xing doors which had never been explored. Her plan was working, why risk messing that up?


Because her plan was only marginal useful. Slowing them down from reaching their goal is only marginally better (because of the slight chance they somehow implode) than them reaching their goal quickly. Unless of course she has some plan to intervene to actually deny them their goal - which she has said she doesn't (originally it was to call her friends).

Think of it this way
- the whole purpose of Serini's dungeon is to slow serious threats down, and you say it was working because it accomplished that for one or two weeks (how long team evil has been there).
- One feature of Dorukan's gate (besides all the other defences) was the ward on the final gate, and that slowed Xykon down for six months.

[brian 333]

Because her plan was only marginal useful. Slowing them down from reaching their goal is only marginally better (because of the slight chance they somehow implode) than them reaching their goal quickly. Unless of course she has some plan to intervene to actually deny them their goal - which she has said she doesn't (originally it was to call her friends).

Think of it this way
- the whole purpose of Serini's dungeon is to slow serious threats down, and you say it was working because it accomplished that for one or two weeks (how long team evil has been there).
- One feature of Dorukan's gate (besides all the other defences) was the ward on the final gate, and that slowed Xykon down for six months.

We do not know what else Serini had in store for powerful invaders. She only mentioned her friends as her 'If all else fails' backup plan.

She also says if she has time she could restock and reset individual dungeons, which could potentially keep powerful enemies busy forever before they get to the final dungeon. That comment, to my knowledge, has not been examined on this forum.

The theme here appears to be that because Serini did not have a hard stop her defense is not only guaranteed to fail, but it is stupid. Want to know what stupid was? Why didn't Xykon go to the nearest Good village, round everybody up, and make them go one-by-one to touch Dorukon's sigil? He could have defeated that gate in days.

Serini's delay tactics and concealing her presence combine to create a virtually infinite defense. No, it is not a hard stop. But a delay that could potentially work for years?

Until Durkon's arrival, Serini's defense was working. Perhaps what Redcloak is doing now would have been done eventually. We don't know.

Guess what else we don't know? What did Serini plan to do before she called on her last line of defense? Because everything we know about Serini leads us to think that she thinks like ogres onions in layers. To insist that Serini's fallback position was her only option ignores everything we know about her. To insist that because she hasn't spoken of any other option means she has none ignores that she said she had at least one option, and it ignores that we know that she has certainly not told us everything.

Serini's defense may be better than a hard stop because a hard stop can make the opponent consider methods of defeating it. Serini's defense could potentially delay opponents indefinitely, forcing them to run and rerun the dungeons and never get any closer to the end.

Now, if anything short of a perfect defense is stupid, consider:
Lirian's defense was defeated by a forest fire.
Dorukon's dungeon was defeated by making Dorukon mad.
Soon's gate was defeated by breaking one paladin.
Girard's gate was defeated by one spell.

So far, Serini was doing as well as any of the other defenders, and potentially could have continued for an unknown time into the future.

There are a lot of things I'd have done differently if it had been my campaign, but I'm not the author. And my story probably wouldn't have captured the attention of even the majority of posters on this forum. So, every time I consider what I'd do differently, I'm compelled to admit that I do not yet know what The Giant has in mind, but at every turn he has surprised, amuzed, and amazed me.

I think Serini has crafted a fantastic defense. Given time, she could act to keep it going for years to come. It isn't perfect, but that is not its purpose. Its purpose is to create the conditions required for Rich to tell his story. In which case, it could be a line of ducks crossing the road or a toll booth in the middle of the desert that requires someone to go back for a bag of dimes.

TLDR: Serini's defense is not perfect. (The rules of her universe may not allow that anyway because all dungeons are made to be defeated.) But it may be that Serini has plans to make her defense last indefinitely. We don't know, because we don't know everything Serini knows.

[Larsaan]

Because everything we know about Serini leads us to think that she thinks like ogres onions in layers.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to need some examples of what you mean by this, because so far she's been one of the most blunt and straightforward characters in this comic (her personal traumas notwithstanding). With the sole exception of getting Lien to drop her guard, she's yet to tell a lie when cursing and shouting would do.

As for all the other stuff... Serini has said she never expected the defenses to hold out forever, she's said her plan for dealing with real threats was to call in her old friends, and she's said she can't do anything about Xykon. I have no reason to disbelieve her.

[BloodSquirrel]

We do not know what else Serini had in store for powerful invaders. She only mentioned her friends as her 'If all else fails' backup plan.

"There's a bunch of stuff that we don't know/should assume to be true without evidence" has been expected to do an awful lot of work to justify Serini's decision making for a very long time now.

Could there be a super-rigorous final obstacle? Sure, there could be, but I don't see a reason to put it as a high probability. None of Serini's schemes so far have shown that depth of consideration. Her plan to break up her team and never speak again, then rely on them as her last line of defense? Not super well-thought out. Her plan to give the paladins and the Order an amnesia potion and then just sort of hope that all of them give up on their mission and never question the giant hole in their memories? Couldn't have possibly worked. Thinking that letting someone as volatile as Xykon get control over the gate was a good idea? Blindingly optimistic. Refusing to communicate and cooperate with the Order when we now know for a fact that they couldn't have possibly accidentally brought the fight to the gate? Not a great plan.

There's just no reason at all to believe that Serini is playing a subtle long game here where her defenses are stronger than she has personally stated them to be to her own allies. I'm sure the final dungeon will be the toughest, but if she was so confident that whatever is in there can stop Xykon, why did she think the Order stood a chance at getting to the gate, and why does she talk and act as if she doesn't expect them to?


Dorukon's dungeon was defeated by making Dorukon mad.
Soon's gate was defeated by breaking one paladin.
Girard's gate was defeated by one spell.

Having to resort to this kind of hyperbole is never a sign that you've got a strong argument on your hands.

It's kind of astonishing how over-invested people are in propping up Serini as a secret genius. She's a highly flawed character in a webcomic full of highly flawed characters. She's from a team of highly flawed characters whose inability to overcome them seems to be a major thematic point, especially as it ties into their gates' defenses. Her flaws have been very deliberately chosen and used to tell a story that has been more interesting for how it has thrown additional obstacles int the Order's path.

It's okay for Serini to be someone who is very, very clever, but also kind of dumb.

[Ruck]

Considering what the two of them gave up during Start of Darkness, I find this extremely unlikely. Redcloak's sunk cost fallacy has been thoroughly discussed here, and as for Xykon, he might humiliate, maim, or even try to mind control Redcloak, but he's not going to kill him as long as he needs him for the Ritual.

The only piece of information that would realistically change that is that the Plan won't actually benefit him, but considering Redcloak has been keeping that secret since the very first time they met, I don't see why that would pop out here, of all places.

Well, there's the fact that Xykon was starting to suspect that the ritual doesn't do what Redcloak told him it does, which is why he had Tsukiko research it independently. And the fact that Redcloak switched out Xykon's phylactery with a fake. And the fact that Xykon knows Redcloak knows he was going behind his back to figure out what the ritual actually does. And the fact that Redcloak let slip he has magical means of tracking Xykon, which immediately raised Xykon's suspicions, even though he seemed to put them aside.

Those raise the possibilities that Xykon will be suspicious that Redcloak is hiding other things from him, like said phylactery. Or that Xykon may think Redcloak is plotting against him in response to going behind his back and choose some kind of preemptive action. Just for a couple of examples-- and each step down these roads further increases the mistrust and gives each of them more reason to be suspicious of the other and more reason to act. Not to mention the possibility of MitD figuring out a way to egg them on or further drive a wedge between them.

A lot has changed since Start of Darkness, especially in the time since the phylactery was initially lost.

[brian 333]

Because her plan was only marginal useful. Slowing them down from reaching their goal is only marginally better (because of the slight chance they somehow implode) than them reaching their goal quickly. Unless of course she has some plan to intervene to actually deny them their goal - which she has said she doesn't (originally it was to call her friends).

Think of it this way
- the whole purpose of Serini's dungeon is to slow serious threats down, and you say it was working because it accomplished that for one or two weeks (how long team evil has been there).
- One feature of Dorukan's gate (besides all the other defences) was the ward on the final gate, and that slowed Xykon down for six months.


"There's a bunch of stuff that we don't know/should assume to be true without evidence" has been expected to do an awful lot of work to justify Serini's decision making for a very long time now.

Could there be a super-rigorous final obstacle? Sure, there could be, but I don't see a reason to put it as a high probability. None of Serini's schemes so far have shown that depth of consideration. Her plan to break up her team and never speak again, then rely on them as her last line of defense? Not super well-thought out. Her plan to give the paladins and the Order an amnesia potion and then just sort of hope that all of them give up on their mission and never question the giant hole in their memories? Couldn't have possibly worked. Thinking that letting someone as volatile as Xykon get control over the gate was a good idea? Blindingly optimistic. Refusing to communicate and cooperate with the Order when we now know for a fact that they couldn't have possibly accidentally brought the fight to the gate? Not a great plan.

There's just no reason at all to believe that Serini is playing a subtle long game here where her defenses are stronger than she has personally stated them to be to her own allies. I'm sure the final dungeon will be the toughest, but if she was so confident that whatever is in there can stop Xykon, why did she think the Order stood a chance at getting to the gate, and why does she talk and act as if she doesn't expect them to?



Having to resort to this kind of hyperbole is never a sign that you've got a strong argument on your hands.

It's kind of astonishing how over-invested people are in propping up Serini as a secret genius. She's a highly flawed character in a webcomic full of highly flawed characters. She's from a team of highly flawed characters whose inability to overcome them seems to be a major thematic point, especially as it ties into their gates' defenses. Her flaws have been very deliberately chosen and used to tell a story that has been more interesting for how it has thrown additional obstacles int the Order's path.

It's okay for Serini to be someone who is very, very clever, but also kind of dumb.

I do not disagree. I don't have enough information to make that call.

But Serini has been playing the long game all along.

1) TE, and everyone else, thought all they had to do was find the right door. Nobody considered they had to open them all.

2) Serini didn't want The Order interfering with her plan because she thought conflict over the gate was more dangerous to the gate than TE.

3) The Order of the Stick is not her ally, and has never been. She has zero reason to trust them, zero reason to believe they can defeat Xykon, and every reason to believe that they are more dangerous to The Gate than Xykon. Or is it your position that the people who purposely destroyed three out of four gates are credible witnesses when they say they won't do it this time?

That she does not trust them is obvious. What leap of logic does it require to believe her when she tells them she is not going to reveal to them her defense plans?

4) But if we are only going on what she said: she said she could restock and reset dungeons. Given time, she could make TE run the gauntlet until they can complete it faster than she can restock... Oh, wait...

5) She correctly identified the presence of The Order as a threat to her gate. Because Durkon announced himself, Redcloak got the false impression that 'The Gods' are trying to stop him, and now is employing a strategy he otherwise was not using, which may result in his finding the final dungeon before Serini can restock and reset.

6) She has never seemed all that worried about TE until this latest strip. She was far more worried about The Order. Was she on TE's side? Has she simply given up and accepted the inevitable? (One would have to ignore everything she has said to hold those opinions.) Or, one could conjecture that she determined that her defense was working to keep TE away from her gate, and there was no reason to panic.

In conclusion, I trust Serini. You do not. I see no way to reconcile the two positions until we have more information.

[BloodSquirrel]

In conclusion, I trust Serini. You do not. I see no way to reconcile the two positions until we have more information.

We have been getting new information on a regular basis, to little effect.

How Serini could possibly be playing "the long game" when all of her choices have lead her to where she is now, a position she most certainly does not want to be in, is beyond explaining at this point. It's just a strange article of faith that is requiring more and more counterfactuals to be created with every strip to justify it.

[Precure]

Well, there's the fact that Xykon was starting to suspect that the ritual doesn't do what Redcloak told him it does, which is why he had Tsukiko research it independently.

I don't think he suspect the ritual, yet, he seems to planned to replace Redcloak with Tsukiko, which is why he gave the ritual to her for research.

[Kish]

He gave her the arcane half: the half he can cast himself. Presumably he wasn't planning to replace himself with Tsukiko.

[Precure]

Did Xykon even know that it's not the full ritual? Because he surely didn't tell Tsukiko.

[Kish]

Well, I mean. Even if Redcloak didn't tell him "this is your half of the ritual," presumably he knew he could cast all of it, unless he handed it off to Tsukiko without ever looking at it himself. And whatever causes the creature in the darkness to be able to recognize it as half a ritual at a glance...Xykon has to have at least 24 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana to be able to cast epic spells.

[Larsaan]

Well, there's the fact that Xykon was starting to suspect that the ritual doesn't do what Redcloak told him it does, which is why he had Tsukiko research it independently. And the fact that Redcloak switched out Xykon's phylactery with a fake. And the fact that Xykon knows Redcloak knows he was going behind his back to figure out what the ritual actually does. And the fact that Redcloak let slip he has magical means of tracking Xykon, which immediately raised Xykon's suspicions, even though he seemed to put them aside.

Those raise the possibilities that Xykon will be suspicious that Redcloak is hiding other things from him, like said phylactery. Or that Xykon may think Redcloak is plotting against him in response to going behind his back and choose some kind of preemptive action. Just for a couple of examples-- and each step down these roads further increases the mistrust and gives each of them more reason to be suspicious of the other and more reason to act. Not to mention the possibility of MitD figuring out a way to egg them on or further drive a wedge between them.

A lot has changed since Start of Darkness, especially in the time since the phylactery was initially lost.

Tensions are certainly high within Team Evil right now, this is true. However, they are not higher than when
Xykon tried to kill Right-Eye and Redcloak, or when Right-Eye tried to kill Xykon.The former incident established that Xykon will not kill Redcloak until the Plan is completed, because then he'll have turned himself into a lich for nothing. The latter incident established that Redcloak will do, and put up with, virtually anything so long as he gets to use Xykon to complete the Plan. Throughout all of the comic's events, these facts have not changed.

So sure, Xykon might find out about Redcloak's phylactery switcheroo, and if he does he'll probably punish him. He might chop off more body parts, he might massacre the bugbears, he might make RC wear a diaper, he might turn Gobbotopia into a smoking crater... and Redcloak will put up with all of it. But they're not going to kill each other. The only thing that could change that is the reveal that the Ritual doesn't do what Xykon thinks it will, and he doesn't have any spare spellcasters on hand to do that research for him.

Any wedge the MitD could drive between them is a microscopic splinter compared to how much these two hate each other already.

[Liquor Box]

I do not disagree. I don't have enough information to make that call.

But Serini has been playing the long game all along.

1) TE, and everyone else, thought all they had to do was find the right door. Nobody considered they had to open them all.

2) Serini didn't want The Order interfering with her plan because she thought conflict over the gate was more dangerous to the gate than TE.

3) The Order of the Stick is not her ally, and has never been. She has zero reason to trust them, zero reason to believe they can defeat Xykon, and every reason to believe that they are more dangerous to The Gate than Xykon. Or is it your position that the people who purposely destroyed three out of four gates are credible witnesses when they say they won't do it this time?

That she does not trust them is obvious. What leap of logic does it require to believe her when she tells them she is not going to reveal to them her defense plans?

4) But if we are only going on what she said: she said she could restock and reset dungeons. Given time, she could make TE run the gauntlet until they can complete it faster than she can restock... Oh, wait...

5) She correctly identified the presence of The Order as a threat to her gate. Because Durkon announced himself, Redcloak got the false impression that 'The Gods' are trying to stop him, and now is employing a strategy he otherwise was not using, which may result in his finding the final dungeon before Serini can restock and reset.

6) She has never seemed all that worried about TE until this latest strip. She was far more worried about The Order. Was she on TE's side? Has she simply given up and accepted the inevitable? (One would have to ignore everything she has said to hold those opinions.) Or, one could conjecture that she determined that her defense was working to keep TE away from her gate, and there was no reason to panic.

In conclusion, I trust Serini. You do not. I see no way to reconcile the two positions until we have more information.

I'm glad to hear that you trust Serini. I trust her when she says "I never expected to be able to build a place that could hold out forever" and "I thought... the real threats would be slowed down [until I could ask my friends to rescue me]". If you trust what she has said as well, you will stop asserting that Serini had everything under control before the Order showed up, because that directly contradicts what she actually said.

[halfeye]

The former incident established that Xykon will not kill Redcloak until the Plan is completed, because then he'll have turned himself into a lich for nothing.

He turned himself into a lich to get out of a trap he was stuck in, he had no other means of escape, if he hadn't turned himself into a lich he'd have been stuck there to this day, the choice had nothing to do with the plan.

[danielxcutter]

He did it in pursuit of the Plan. That’s close enough.

[Peelee]

I'm glad to hear that you trust Serini. I trust her when she says "I never expected to be able to build a place that could hold out forever".

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”


Anyway. All this talk about how long hers will hold out, when I feel fairly safe in saying they'll last til the end of the world.

[Precure]

Well, I mean. Even if Redcloak didn't tell him "this is your half of the ritual," presumably he knew he could cast all of it, unless he handed it off to Tsukiko without ever looking at it himself. And whatever causes the creature in the darkness to be able to recognize it as half a ritual at a glance...Xykon has to have at least 24 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana to be able to cast epic spells.

Well, as Tsukiko said, he was not educated enough to understand it, as he wasn't even aware that it will teleport the gate.

[brian 333]

I'm glad to hear that you trust Serini. I trust her when she says "I never expected to be able to build a place that could hold out forever" and "I thought... the real threats would be slowed down [until I could ask my friends to rescue me]". If you trust what she has said as well, you will stop asserting that Serini had everything under control before the Order showed up, because that directly contradicts what she actually said.

Since I never asserted that was not the case, I do not see how this in any way refutes my position.

What you appear to be saying is that Serini has nothing else. In the first panel of 1278, Haley asks, "Wait, wouldn't someone be able to tackle the dungeons really slowly and eventually beat them all anyway?"
Serini answers, "If I can't replace 'em fast enough? Maybe. But I'd still consider that a win."

So, it appears she did, in fact, have at least one fallback position before calling for help. As long as the opponent goes slow enough to give her time to restock and rearm the dungeons, she can keep them looking forever.

It is not a hard leap of faith to assume she can disable the final trap.
It is not a hard leap of faith to assume she can redirect the final destination. My favorite redirection would be to that plane Not-Thad got sent to.
It is not a hard leap of faith to assume that there are multiple layers between "The Hollow passively stops the bad guys," and, "Make a desperate call for backup from people who swore to defend the world, but who hate each other."

And finally, does Serini look worried to you?

My sister evacuated for a hurricane with her daughter, who is also her insurance agent. My sister was in a panic over the destruction she was seeing on the news. In order to calm her down I said, "Does she look worried?" The person who was primarily responsible for making sure my sister's damages were repaired or compensated said, "Nope. I got this."

If the person in charge panics, it's time to panic. At this time Serini doesn't appear worried. In fact, she appears to me to be doing her best to prevent The Order from interfering. I have to believe she knows her setup better than I do, and if she thinks The Order is more of a problem than TE, I have to assume she knows something I do not.

[Liquor Box]

Since I never asserted that was not the case, I do not see how this in any way refutes my position.

Great, so we agree that Serini's gauntlet was only meant to slow serious threats like Xykon down and is not expected (by her) to hold out forever? I just want to be crystal clear we agree on that, before addressing your other points.

[brian 333]

Great, so we agree that Serini's gauntlet was only meant to slow serious threats like Xykon down and is not expected (by her) to hold out forever? I just want to be crystal clear we agree on that, before addressing your other points.

That was the final default option, yes. And I have never said otherwise.

So, two questions:

In OotSverse, is there any conceivable method that could potentially hold out forever? If not, then are you not advocating the position that her defense was inferior to an impossible and unachievable perfect theoretical ideal?

Are you seriously dismissing the possibility, (one of which she articulated in the speech bubble prior to the one upon which you are fixated,) that there are potential resolutions which do not involve running for help?

[Liquor Box]

That was the final default option, yes. And I have never said otherwise.

So, two questions:

In OotSverse, is there any conceivable method that could potentially hold out forever? If not, then are you not advocating the position that her defense was inferior to an impossible and unachievable perfect theoretical ideal?

Are you seriously dismissing the possibility, (one of which she articulated in the speech bubble prior to the one upon which you are fixated,) that there are potential resolutions which do not involve running for help?

Question 1:
Yes, a defence that eliminates the attackers does indeed hold out forever against them.

Question 2:
Do you mean replacing monsters? Yes, that might be a possibility against someone who was going really slowly, which is what she says. But I was talking about Team Evil, who has been completing dungeons at quite a brisk pace (several a day) even before summoning that thing.

[Ruck]

Question 1:
Yes, a defence that eliminates the attackers does indeed hold out forever against them.

A series of hundreds (?) of dungeons filled with the mightiest monsters available seems like a pretty good plan in terms of eliminating the attackers, generally speaking.

Although if you have any ideas for a defense system that could do so with more certainty, I'd like to hear them.

[Liquor Box]

A series of hundreds (?) of dungeons filled with the mightiest monsters available seems like a pretty good plan in terms of eliminating the attackers, generally speaking.

Although if you have any ideas for a defense system that could do so with more certainty, I'd like to hear them.

A series of hundred (?) of dungeons filled with strong monsters is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. Serini tells us this explicity.

I don't know what plan could eliminate a threat like Team Evil with certainty. But there are plenty which stand a better chance than simply relying on Serini's dungeons. The most obvious examples include throwing something at them which actually stand a chance of defeating them. Some examples:
1. Serini's original plan of summoning the rest of the Scribble to attack the attackers (if they were alive and she could pull it off)
2. The current plan which has been forced upon Serini of assembling the strongest force to hand (in this case the Order and the paladins) to attack the attackers.
3. Dorukan attacking the attackers
4. Ghost Soon and a squadron of ghost palasins attacking the attackers

As you know, some people have been arguing that the defenders of Girard's gate were a real threat to Xykon. I don't think so, and i think the principal proponent of that argument has realised that the defence strategy was founded on a mistaken understanding of the rules (the idea you could cast spells through those little peepholes). But I do think it is closer to being a threat than Serini's gauntlet.

Some of the above ultimately didn't work (eg Xykon defeated Dorukan), and we know that with the benefit of hindsight. But each of them stood (or stand) a much better chance of stopping Xykon than delaying (for two weeks or so) and hoping his party turn on one another.

[Larsaan]

He turned himself into a lich to get out of a trap he was stuck in, he had no other means of escape, if he hadn't turned himself into a lich he'd have been stuck there to this day, the choice had nothing to do with the plan.

As daniel pointed out, the reason he was in the trap to begin with was because of the Plan. The reason he tried to kill Right-Eye and Redcloak was because of the resulting taste loss, and what made him stand down was pointing out that if he killed Redcloak, he'd have done it to himself for nothing.

[brian 333]

A series of hundred (?) of dungeons filled with strong monsters is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. Serini tells us this explicity.

I don't know what plan could eliminate a threat like Team Evil with certainty. But there are plenty which stand a better chance than simply relying on Serini's dungeons. The most obvious examples include throwing something at them which actually stand a chance of defeating them. Some examples:
1. Serini's original plan of summoning the rest of the Scribble to attack the attackers (if they were alive and she could pull it off)
2. The current plan which has been forced upon Serini of assembling the strongest force to hand (in this case the Order and the paladins) to attack the attackers.
3. Dorukan attacking the attackers
4. Ghost Soon and a squadron of ghost palasins attacking the attackers

As you know, some people have been arguing that the defenders of Girard's gate were a real threat to Xykon. I don't think so, and i think the principal proponent of that argument has realised that the defence strategy was founded on a mistaken understanding of the rules (the idea you could cast spells through those little peepholes). But I do think it is closer to being a threat than Serini's gauntlet.

Some of the above ultimately didn't work (eg Xykon defeated Dorukan), and we know that with the benefit of hindsight. But each of them stood (or stand) a much better chance of stopping Xykon than delaying (for two weeks or so) and hoping his party turn on one another.

Or, you know, delaying them until they kill each other.

If Xykon defeated two epic casters who were known to be among the most powerful in the world and Soon's army of ghost paladins, then none of the methods you cite would have worked.

#2 is a particularly dumb idea because of the way tiers of power work in D&D. Plus, they are the idiots responsible for destroying three out of four of the gates, and there is only one left.

Logically, if everything you can possibly do is going to fail, the correct answer is not to die trying. The advantage of delay is that it often allows time to find a solution you never knew existed.

And yes, the delay tactic was working. Theoretically, it can continue to work. The person responsible for the gate's defense seems far less worried than Roy. Or you.

Maybe there is a reason she's not worried. Maybe she knows something. Maybe she has a plan.

[Liquor Box]

Or, you know, delaying them until they kill each other.

We've been over this. They've been together for 30 years without killing each other. There have been various times in the past when tensions have been higher between them, the cracks wider. In terms of boredom they spent six months at Dorukan's gate, compared with two weeks here (where at least they have the distraction of fighting the dungeons). The chance of them spontaneously bursting into internal fight (without prompting from the Order or the paladins) in the few weeks (or even months if we are generous) that they are progressing through Serini's dungeons is like one in ten thousand.


If Xykon defeated two epic casters who were known to be among the most powerful in the world and Soon's army of ghost paladins, then none of the methods you cite would have worked.

#2 is a particularly dumb idea because of the way tiers of power work in D&D. Plus, they are the idiots responsible for destroying three out of four of the gates, and there is only one left.

Logically, if everything you can possibly do is going to fail, the correct answer is not to die trying. The advantage of delay is that it often allows time to find a solution you never knew existed.

Just because they didn't work, doesn't mean they were never going to. Soon's gate didn't work only because the Miko destroyed the gate. After fighting Dorukan, Xykon said it was a near run thing that could have gone either way. The order of the Scribble was Serini's own plan. As for the order, they've actually defeated him before.

So all were a chance. All were much much more likely to defeat Xykon than simply hoping that delaying him a few weeks might cause an internal fight within his part.


And yes, the delay tactic was working. Theoretically, it can continue to work. The person responsible for the gate's defense seems far less worried than Roy. Or you.

Maybe there is a reason she's not worried. Maybe she knows something. Maybe she has a plan.

The people responsible for the defence of the gate are worried (by that i mean the Order, as they have taken responsibility off Serini - her plan is no longer the plan).

As for Serini, I have no idea why you think she's not worried. She clearly is. She's been acting out for the last 100 or so strips. The very first comment we say her make was that existing was nice well it lasted. Since then she's literaly called her opponent unbeatable. I think it's pretty clear she is terrified, and that's why she's behaving so poorly.

[brian 333]

She made that comment after finding the paladins.

She says direct confrontation with Xykon is more dangerous to the gate than doing nothing. What does she know that you don't?

[Liquor Box]

She made that comment after finding the paladins.

She made that comment at a point where she had successfully captured the paladins, with a plan to turn them free with their memories wiped. So a point at which she didn't anticipate them interfering


She says direct confrontation with Xykon is more dangerous to the gate than doing nothing. What does she know that you don't?

When she said that, she didn't know that this was the last gate. So it's more what we, the audience, knew that she didn't.

Anyway, that is beside the point. I think she's acting very worried. You don't. It's a very minor point.

The main point is that she's told us that her gauntlet was only meant to slow serious threats like Xykon down and is not expected (by her) to hold out forever.

[Peelee]

A series of hundred (?) of dungeons filled with strong monsters is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. Serini tells us this explicity.

A flammabale forest is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A castle that is almost entirely reliant on its aging resident wizard is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A city with a common army and a small cadre of paladins is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A ziggurat almost entirely protected by illusions is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

[Liquor Box]

A flammabale forest is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A castle that is almost entirely reliant on its aging resident wizard is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A city with a common army and a small cadre of paladins is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. A ziggurat almost entirely protected by illusions is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

If by the second and third of those things you are referring to Dorukan and Soon's defences, then I think you are mistaken. They are both a real challenge for even a serious threat, and they were both a close call for Xykon

Lirian's glade, and Girard's pyramid maybe not so much. But I'd still say more likely to eliminate a serious threat like Xykon than Serini's gauntlet. At least they both had another epic combatant there to oppose the serious threat (instead of an epic character trying and failing to make sure noone else attacks the invaders).

There's a reason for that. All of the above were designed to eliminate serious threats (or in Lirian's case imprison). Serini's gauntlet wasn't - she was relying on calling the cavalry.

Don't take my word for it. Take Serini's.

[Peelee]

If by the second and third of those things you are referring to Dorukan and Soon's defences, then I think you are mistaken. They are both a real challenge for even a serious threat, and they were both a close call for Xykon

Lirian's glade, and Girard's pyramid maybe not so much. But I'd still say more likely to eliminate a serious threat like Xykon than Serini's gauntlet.

There's a reason for that. All of the above were designed to eliminate serious threats (or in Lirian's case imprison). Serini's gauntlet wasn't - she was relying on calling the cavalry.

Don't take my word for it. Take Serini's.
I think you're trying to use one argument to make an unrelated point. You're saying that her defenses were not permanent. Except none of the defenses were permanent. There is no such thing as permanent. Given a strong enough enemy, any gates defense will be overrun.

If you want to make the case that Serini's is weak specifically because she planned on calling help, go for it., i won't debate thst. But you are using those arguments to focus on "and so it was always going to be overrun by someone strong enough", which isnt supported by your arguments and will ways be true regardless.

[brian 333]

Don't take my word for it. Take Serini's.

I do. But to get to your position you have to ignore other things Serini said and did.

She doesn't want a direct confrontation over the gate. She said that conflict is more dangerous to the gate than doing nothing.

You are saying conflict is, and should be the correct solution.

You are ignoring what Serini said.

She said she can restock and reset dungeons, which require time, but which could theoretically keep the enemy at bay infinitely.

You argue that delay is temporary and 100% doomed to fail.

You are ignoring what Serini said.

Don't worry, you are in good company; Roy thinks the same way you do. But Serini, after failing to stop a group of mid to high level characters, is now doing her best to delay them, even including having them make a pot of soup while she takes a nap. She does appear worried about what The Order might do, but she does not appear worried about Xykon at all.

But you claim the designer of the defense is ignorant of how her defense works and you advocate they do exactly what she says to not do.

You are ignoring what Serini said.

[Liquor Box]

I think you're trying to use one argument to make an unrelated point. You're saying that her defenses were not permanent. Except none of the defenses were permanent. There is no such thing as permanent. Given a strong enough enemy, any gates defense will be overrun.

I don't think permanence has anything to do with it. I don't think Serini was saying her dungeon wasn't permanent. I think she was saying that she didn't think it would ever stop a serious threat, only slow them down. Wheras I do think that some of the other gate defences might have stopped a serious threat - by killing that threat (or locking it in an underground prison forever).

Of course you are right that, if you ramp up the power of the enemy high enough, none of the gates would have any real chance of stopping them (by destroying them or otherwise). But I don't know that there's anything that powerful in OotSverse, and I don't think Serini was pitching that high when she said 'serious threat'. I think she was meaning someone like Xykon, and all of the other gates came close to actually stopping him. That's something Serini has said her gate cannot do.


If you want to make the case that Serini's is weak specifically because she planned on calling help, go for it., i won't debate thst. But you are using those arguments to focus on "and so it was always going to be overrun by someone strong enough", which isnt supported by your arguments and will ways be true regardless.

On the contrary, I think Serini's plan of building a gauntlet which would take even a strong threat ages (weeks at least) to get through, then calling a powerful force to eliminate that threat might have been very effective. I say 'might have been' because I'm not sure if she could have got the old team back together or not. But if she had, and all of the Scribble had attacked a threat like Team Evil while it was running the gauntlet, I think odds on they win (especially with the advantage of forward planning and surprise). So Serini's defence might have been the best of all when all the Scribble was alive.

Unfortunately, the teeth in Serini's defence was her allies, and all but one of them died decades ago. Without them, her gauntlet is just a speedbump. To her credit, she is able to acknowledge this.



I do. But to get to your position you have to ignore other things Serini said and did.


No, my position is just what Serini said - that her defences wouldn't last forever against a serious threat, and would just slow it down.

All the other stuff you are talking about has nothing to do with what I am saying.

Except this:

She said she can restock and reset dungeons, which require time, but which could theoretically keep the enemy at bay infinitely.

I replied to this on the previous page. THis is what I said:
Question 2:
Do you mean replacing monsters? Yes, that might be a possibility against someone who was going really slowly, which is what she says. But I was talking about Team Evil, who has been completing dungeons at quite a brisk pace (several a day) even before summoning that thing.

[Precure]

Soon's Gate defended worst because it was right next to a guy who was a target of various assassination attempts.

[Rollin]

Lien holders? :smallcool: (Wait, no, Lien has a boyfriend already...)

Whatever we call the fiends in this connection, since their deal can be described as a fixed-term lease with an occupancy date yet to be determined (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html), we can confidently award Vaarsuvius the title of Lessor of Two Evils (and formerly of three).

[Tzardok]

Whatever we call the fiends in this connection, since their deal can be described as a fixed-term lease with an occupancy date yet to be determined (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html), we can confidently award Vaarsuvius the title of Lessor of Two Evils (and formerly of three).

You, good sir, have won the Internet for today. :smallamused:

[Ruck]

Yeesh, I've been meaning to reply for days, but something or another always keeps coming up.


A series of hundred (?) of dungeons filled with strong monsters is a good plan for eliminating threats that aren't serious. But not for eliminating serious threats like Xykon. Serini tells us this explicity.

I don't know what plan could eliminate a threat like Team Evil with certainty. But there are plenty which stand a better chance than simply relying on Serini's dungeons. The most obvious examples include throwing something at them which actually stand a chance of defeating them. Some examples:
1. Serini's original plan of summoning the rest of the Scribble to attack the attackers (if they were alive and she could pull it off)
2. The current plan which has been forced upon Serini of assembling the strongest force to hand (in this case the Order and the paladins) to attack the attackers.
3. Dorukan attacking the attackers
4. Ghost Soon and a squadron of ghost palasins attacking the attackers

As you know, some people have been arguing that the defenders of Girard's gate were a real threat to Xykon. I don't think so, and i think the principal proponent of that argument has realised that the defence strategy was founded on a mistaken understanding of the rules (the idea you could cast spells through those little peepholes). But I do think it is closer to being a threat than Serini's gauntlet.

Some of the above ultimately didn't work (eg Xykon defeated Dorukan), and we know that with the benefit of hindsight. But each of them stood (or stand) a much better chance of stopping Xykon than delaying (for two weeks or so) and hoping his party turn on one another.

I mean, Dorukan was not well-prepared for Xykon at all, and his dungeon didn't resist Xykon very much other than the actual wards on the Gate. So I don't know how you can confidently call his defenses definitely better than Serini's defenses.

But I think this gets to something I mentioned elsewhere, which is that I think you are giving the members of the Scribble and the defense systems you prefer all the benefit of the doubt, and the ones you don't prefer none of it, specifically Girard and Serini. I agree with this:


I think you're trying to use one argument to make an unrelated point. You're saying that her defenses were not permanent. Except none of the defenses were permanent. There is no such thing as permanent. Given a strong enough enemy, any gates defense will be overrun.

If you want to make the case that Serini's is weak specifically because she planned on calling help, go for it., i won't debate thst. But you are using those arguments to focus on "and so it was always going to be overrun by someone strong enough", which isnt supported by your arguments and will ways be true regardless.

Any dungeon or defense system will eventually be defeated by someone strong enough. So I'm not sure why you say the defenses actually beaten by Xykon, like Dorukan's, were good enough, but the ones that haven't yet, like Serini's, or that never had the chance, like Girard's, were definitely not good enough.


Tensions are certainly high within Team Evil right now, this is true. However, they are not higher than when
Xykon tried to kill Right-Eye and Redcloak, or when Right-Eye tried to kill Xykon.The former incident established that Xykon will not kill Redcloak until the Plan is completed, because then he'll have turned himself into a lich for nothing. The latter incident established that Redcloak will do, and put up with, virtually anything so long as he gets to use Xykon to complete the Plan. Throughout all of the comic's events, these facts have not changed.

So sure, Xykon might find out about Redcloak's phylactery switcheroo, and if he does he'll probably punish him. He might chop off more body parts, he might massacre the bugbears, he might make RC wear a diaper, he might turn Gobbotopia into a smoking crater... and Redcloak will put up with all of it. But they're not going to kill each other. The only thing that could change that is the reveal that the Ritual doesn't do what Xykon thinks it will, and he doesn't have any spare spellcasters on hand to do that research for him.

Any wedge the MitD could drive between them is a microscopic splinter compared to how much these two hate each other already.

Tensions were high there, true, but it wasn't that level of mistrust. Xykon wasn't at that point doubting that the ritual did what Redcloak said it did, and Redcloak wasn't making moves behind Xykon's back like the phylactery switch. I think you're underestimating the difference of the kind of tension there-- it's one thing for them to hate each other; it's another for, say, Xykon to realize the ritual doesn't do what Redcloak says it does at all.

MitD does not need to drive a brand-new wedge between them. He simply has to have the capacity to do or say something that could drive the already-existing one to a point it boils over (if you'll forgive the mixed metaphor).

I don't know what would finally be turning point or what that would look like. I just think that with the level of mistrust between them, the more time passes, the likelihood (whatever that is) of them finally turning on each other goes up.

[Liquor Box]

Yeesh, I've been meaning to reply for days, but something or another always keeps coming up.

Happens


I mean, Dorukan was not well-prepared for Xykon at all, and his dungeon didn't resist Xykon very much other than the actual wards on the Gate. So I don't know how you can confidently call his defenses definitely better than Serini's defenses.

He was well prepared. Xykon actually says so. Also, I don't think I've ever said anything was 'definitely' better. But that's all not the point.

The difference between Dorukan's defence (and some others) and Serini's (and some others) is that Dorukan's actually had a realistic chance of actually killing Xykon, through Dorukan personally attacking him. Xykon remarks after their battle how close it was. Serini's gauntlet has nothing that has a real chance to actually kill Xykon.

Once Dorukan was defeated, his dungeon was comparable to Serini's. His dungeon had some monsters, some traps, and a puzzle he had to figure out at the end. Serini's had some monsters, some traps and a puzzle (although this was more of MitD's creation). None of those things, in either dungeon, had much chance of killing Xykon though, only slowing him down. Dorukan did, and that's why I think his defence was superior.

B
ut I think this gets to something I mentioned elsewhere, which is that I think you are giving the members of the Scribble and the defense systems you prefer all the benefit of the doubt, and the ones you don't prefer none of it, specifically Girard and Serini. I agree with this:

Well, obviously from my perspective I am being fair and unbiased and basing my assessment solely on the facts. And from my perspective, it is you who is inexplicably giving Serini and Girard the benefit of the doubt etc. I am sure none of us is free from some subconscious assumptions in this regard.

The way to resolve this is to point out the specific assumptions, or 'benefits of the doubt' we see the other giving their preferred dungeon. Then keep an open mind when listening to any responses to that come from a different perspective. I', sure none of us are perfect at this, but we should all strive for it - and this might help eliminate some of these subconscious biases. Indeed, in my discussion with Gbaji I think each of us has made points that the other has conceded (dispelling benefits of the doubt we'd wrongly given one set of defence), even though we haven't ultimately reached agreement.


Any dungeon or defense system will eventually be defeated by someone strong enough. So I'm not sure why you say the defenses actually beaten by Xykon, like Dorukan's, were good enough, but the ones that haven't yet, like Serini's, or that never had the chance, like Girard's, were definitely not good enough.

Of course you are right, that if the opposing power is overwhelming, then it will probably prevail. But the defences are different as to the level of power they can stand up to. Xykon was not so powerful, that Dorukan's defence had no chance of stopping him. Xykon is so powerful that Serini has conceded that her dungeon has no real chance of stopping him, only slowing him down.

I am not saying that Soon's and Dorukan's dungeons were strong enough that they did stop Xykon, or were certain to do so. Obviously, for different reasons, they didn't. I am saying that they were strong enough that they stood a decent chance of doing so, and may have if there was a rerun of them. Serini has told us her gauntlet does not stand a decent chance of stopping Xykon, only slowing him down. To me that is a pretty clear and distinct difference.

[brian 333]

Serini's gauntlet has nothing that has a real chance to actually kill Xykon.

This is asserted as an absolute, known truth. It is, in fact, the underlying proof of your thesis.

But it is just a guess.

There are no declarative statements to this effect, and we have not seen every monster in the dungeons.

I have a theory which is, at this time exactly as provable as the quote above.

Serini meets and befriends the mother of all gold dragons. (In fact, we see a crayon drawing in her lair recounting the event.) When her dungeon is built, she goes to this Great Wyrm Wizard and invites her to move into a place where she will not be bothered by curious adventurers again until the very fate of the world is at stake. Moad agrees, and moves into the final dungeon.

Xykon may be able to defeat every monster in the Hollow, but when he meets Moad, his game is over. Even a phylactery won't help.

I don't believe this is the case for story reasons. Roy has to beat Xykon.

But, to continue to assert as fact something you cannot know is a major flaw in your argument. If every other point you make is conditional on this one point, your argument becomes a guess.

[OvisCaedo]

Serini herself has repeatedly expressed that she does not expect the gauntlet or dungeons to stop Xykon. (She even exclaimed that he was outright unbeatable (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1249.html)). You seem intent on ignoring everything she's actually said in favor of going "WELL she's not panicking as much as I think she should be, so that must mean she thinks she has it under control". Even before the Order showed up and Redcloak accelerated, she was lamenting the encroaching end of her existence. She has never even tried to argue "I've got this handled", she has always argued "it's better for Xykon to get the gate than for you guys to maybe break it".

And while, certainly, she didn't have much reason to trust the order, her choice of actions while disliking them was STILL completely illogical. She knew completely that they were coming, and any risk their presence posed to Xykon figuring out the dungeon's tricks would come entirely from them stumbling blind into them without warning exactly like they did because she refused to speak to them. The idea that they could accidentally even risk breaking the gate sounds absurd now that we know the mechanism, even; There was absolutely no way they were going to trigger the entrance to the final dungeon accidentally in a conflict, and no feasible way for any conflict to reach it. Even distrusting them, she could have refused to tell them about the tricks, and instead planned to set them loose on Xykon in a circumstance that wouldn't give anything away.

edit: and in general I still don't understand how anyone could think that whatever the reckless evil lich plans on doing with the world-destroying god-devouring monster is a safe bet. I don't think any of them know his actual plan, which I guess maybe wouldn't destroy THIS world immediately, but that just should make it seem even more like a risk that anything could happen or go wrong

[Peelee]

Even before the Order showed up and Redcloak accelerated, she was lamenting the encroaching end of her existence.

Point of order, she lamented the encroaching end of existence (i read it as all of existence, not just hers) when Team Evil and the paladins were there and the Order was imminent - literally every group that destroyed all the other Gates. I hardly think such lamentation is out of hand, considering (and, i should note, she wasn't lamenting the world being ruled by an insane lich, she was lamenting the end of existence).

[OvisCaedo]

Point of order, she lamented the encroaching end of existence (i read it as all of existence, not just hers) when Team Evil and the paladins were there and the Order was imminent - literally every group that destroyed all the other Gates. I hardly think such lamentation is out of hand, considering (and, i should note, she wasn't lamenting the world being ruled by an insane lich, she was lamenting the end of existence).

That is true, but I think still goes pretty strongly against the idea that she thought she had things in hand. Her stances on a lot of things seem to be kind of... contradictory. Presumably because she's terrified and panicking, which is reasonable! I don't hate Serini, I just think she's made some poor decisions, and definitely would not just have things under control without the Order here. Some people hate on her WAY too strongly, but I think others maybe took too hard of a counter-stance and try to defend every poor choice she's made.

I admit that despite bringing it up, I also felt kind of weird about her end of existence lamentation. She took the paladins out, and seemed confident her master plan would take out the Order, but still lamented existence ending. I was kind of thinking it was maybe a moment of clarity where she realized that despite Xykon's goal being to 'rule the world', whatever he was going to try to do with the planet-destroying monster would still only end badly. And she was just too stubborn to let herself admit that risk whenever she was dealing with other people? But, no, that doesn't really seem to be the case.

[Peelee]

That is true, but I think still goes pretty strongly against the idea that she thought she had things in hand. Her stances on a lot of things seem to be kind of... contradictory. Presumably because she's terrified and panicking, which is reasonable! I don't hate Serini, I just think she's made some poor decisions, and definitely would not just have things under control without the Order here. Some people hate on her WAY too strongly, but I think others maybe took too hard of a counter-stance and try to defend every poor choice she's made.

I admit that despite bringing it up, I also felt kind of weird about her end of existence lamentation. She took the paladins out, and seemed confident her master plan would take out the Order, but still lamented existence ending. I was kind of thinking it was maybe a moment of clarity where she realized that despite Xykon's goal being to 'rule the world', whatever he was going to try to do with the planet-destroying monster would still only end badly. And she was just too stubborn to let herself admit that risk whenever she was dealing with other people? But, no, that doesn't really seem to be the case.

I think i can agree with all of that.

[Liquor Box]

This is asserted as an absolute, known truth. It is, in fact, the underlying proof of your thesis.

But it is just a guess.


it is not a guess. It is based on Serini's statement, which you have already agreed with. She said her gauntlet would only slow serious threats down, and would not hold out against them forever. So she felt nothing in her gauntlet would actually destroy Xykon.


And while, certainly, she didn't have much reason to trust the order, her choice of actions while disliking them was STILL completely illogical. She knew completely that they were coming, and any risk their presence posed to Xykon figuring out the dungeon's tricks would come entirely from them stumbling blind into them without warning exactly like they did because she refused to speak to them. The idea that they could accidentally even risk breaking the gate sounds absurd now that we know the mechanism, even; There was absolutely no way they were going to trigger the entrance to the final dungeon accidentally in a conflict, and no feasible way for any conflict to reach it. Even distrusting them, she could have refused to tell them about the tricks, and instead planned to set them loose on Xykon in a circumstance that wouldn't give anything away.
The whole of your post is spot on (except the detail that the paladins had jsut arrived), btu wanted to explicitly acknowledge this, since I hadn't realised it.

You are right, all the speculation was that the Order, likely due to hayley, might expose some shell game. Now we know there wasn't a shell game, that's not a thing. If Serini had just left matters alone, the only way for them to even reach the end dungeon would be to go through the whole gauntlet themselves, so there could have been no imminent confrontation at the final gate. There would be no downside to her if they had simply attacked Team Evil.

[brian 333]

Conflating Xykon as the Serious Threat is your interpretation. Serini may not want to directly confront Xykon, but she does appear to be allowing her defense to work.

She knows she cannot stop Xylon. She does not believe The Order can stop Xykon. But she is still willing to let her defenses work.

You interpret this as, "Serini gave up."

I interpret it as, "Serini still hopes for something other than the end of the world."

If your interpretation is correct, then please explain why an all out assault with everything she can bring to bear is not being tried. It certainly could not result in something worse than everyone dying and the world coming to an end, could it?

And if she is dead set against such an attempt, as she still appears to be, what could 'cowardice' achieve that the assault cannot? At the very least, allowing The Order to try while she hides could not be worse than the end of existence.

There is no logic to your position. In my opinion, Serini is waiting for another solution, (one we lack specific information about,) and to that end, delay is a fantastic defense. It has a purpose and a goal.

So, assuming your analysis is correct, what is her purpose and her goal in doing what she is currently doing?

[Liquor Box]

Conflating Xykon as the Serious Threat is your interpretation. Serini may not want to directly confront Xykon, but she does appear to be allowing her defense to work.

She knows she cannot stop Xylon. She does not believe The Order can stop Xykon. But she is still willing to let her defenses work.

You interpret this as, "Serini gave up."


Nope, I have never said she gave up. I said that her gauntlet would only slow serious threats down, and would not hold out against them forever.

That is what we know. In terms of what I think, I think that her plan when Xykon first arrived was to allow him to take the gate, endure him using it for his ends, and hope someone would rescue the world in the future. Now that she knows him taking the gate would destroy the world, I think her current plan is to work with the Order so they attack Xykon, while perhaps influencing how and where they attack.

[brian 333]

Nope, I have never said she gave up. I said that her gauntlet would only slow serious threats down, and would not hold out against them forever.

That is what we know. In terms of what I think, I think that her plan when Xykon first arrived was to allow him to take the gate, endure him using it for his ends, and hope someone would rescue the world in the future. Now that she knows him taking the gate would destroy the world, I think her current plan is to work with the Order so they attack Xykon, while perhaps influencing how and where they attack.

I think you are wrong on both counts, and I am content to wait and see what happens.

On the first count you are assuming that a hypothetical outlined as polar opposites, not by Serini but by the paladins, was actually her plan. What was said was, given those two options, Xykon getting the gate is better than the destruction of the world. That is absolutely not Serini's position, because at that point she could have simply opened the door for Xykon. She didn't. She let her dungeon work. She has some third thing in mind.

On the second count, if her plan was to work with The Order she'd have opened her bags of holding and outfitted everyone with the best gear and showed them the best place for an ambush. She didn't. Instead, she is stalling The Order with pointless paperwork and planning, dinner, and a nap. All the while, she is letting her dungeon work. She has some third thing in mind.

And that is the point I have tried repeatedly to get you to consider: the possibility of some third thing about which The Order, and we, do not yet know. I could be wrong. The Author is not obliged to write his story the way I would. But he appears to be outlining all of the extreme positions so he can center his shot in the middle.

[brian 333]

Nope, I have never said she gave up. I said that her gauntlet would only slow serious threats down, and would not hold out against them forever.

That is what we know. In terms of what I think, I think that her plan when Xykon first arrived was to allow him to take the gate, endure him using it for his ends, and hope someone would rescue the world in the future. Now that she knows him taking the gate would destroy the world, I think her current plan is to work with the Order so they attack Xykon, while perhaps influencing how and where they attack.

I think you are wrong on both counts, and I am content to wait and see what happens.

On the first count you are assuming that a hypothetical outlined as polar opposites, not by Serini but by the paladins, was actually her plan. What was said was, given those two options, Xykon getting the gate is better than the destruction of the world. That is absolutely not Serini's position, because at that point she could have simply opened the door for Xykon. She didn't. She let her dungeon work. She has some third thing in mind.

On the second count, if her plan was to work with The Order she'd have opened her bags of holding and outfitted everyone with the best gear and showed them the best place for an ambush. She didn't. Instead, she is stalling The Order with pointless paperwork and planning, dinner, and a nap. All the while, she is letting her dungeon work. She has some third thing in mind.

And that is the point I have tried repeatedly to get you to consider: the possibility of some third thing about which The Order, and we, do not yet know. I could be wrong. The Author is not obliged to write his story the way I would. But he appears to be outlining all of the extreme positions so he can center his shot in the middle.

[Liquor Box]

I think you are wrong on both counts, and I am content to wait and see what happens.

On the first count you are assuming that a hypothetical outlined as polar opposites, not by Serini but by the paladins, was actually her plan. What was said was, given those two options, Xykon getting the gate is better than the destruction of the world. That is absolutely not Serini's position, because at that point she could have simply opened the door for Xykon. She didn't. She let her dungeon work. She has some third thing in mind.

On the second count, if her plan was to work with The Order she'd have opened her bags of holding and outfitted everyone with the best gear and showed them the best place for an ambush. She didn't. Instead, she is stalling The Order with pointless paperwork and planning, dinner, and a nap. All the while, she is letting her dungeon work. She has some third thing in mind.

And that is the point I have tried repeatedly to get you to consider: the possibility of some third thing about which The Order, and we, do not yet know. I could be wrong. The Author is not obliged to write his story the way I would. But he appears to be outlining all of the extreme positions so he can center his shot in the middle.

So in summary.
- We agree that Serini thinks her gauntlet would only slow serious threats down, and would not hold out against them forever.
- Although we agree on the above, we disagree on what her actual plan is.

Let's wait and see what happens.

[brian 333]

So in summary.
- We agree that Serini thinks her gauntlet would only slow serious threats down, and would not hold out against them forever.
- Although we agree on the above, we disagree on what her actual plan is.

Let's wait and see what happens.

Serini is smart enough to realize that there is no such thing as a defense that will hold out forever against a serious enough threat. Certainly none of the other Scribblers had such a defense. Agreeing with that premise is like agreeing that water is usually wet.

[gbaji]

Don't disagree with your point, but this part is inaccurate:


There is a very real possibility that Redcloak and Xykon would have gotten frustrated and blew up some of the entrances, denying themselves the final gate by destroying the swapovers they needed to get a tattoo in.

The "trap" that puts the marks on people is not in the swapovers, but located in the entrance to the final room in each dungeon. So blasting the entrance wont destroy this. Now yes, if they destroy the swapovers, they can't get to those rooms (although they might be able to still do so from backstage maybe?), but still...


And, as I have demonstrated, her plan was not, delay and call my friends to bail me out. That was simply her final fallback option after everything else failed.

And this is the biggest point. As you have stated, there's a whole lot of potential stuff that can happen while "slowing folks down" that can result in the folks attempting to get to the gate being thwarted.


4) But if we are only going on what she said: she said she could restock and reset dungeons. Given time, she could make TE run the gauntlet until they can complete it faster than she can restock... Oh, wait...

Another relevant point. Barring a continous concerted effort by very very high level opponents, Serini's defenses, as designed, could have more or less held out "forever".

I'll also point out that this is further support for a point I made earlier, that eventually TE would have likely resorted to this anyway (barring one of those other potentialities you mentioned happening, of course). Redcloak's immediate assumption upon realizing that a marked dungeon had monsters in it was that the hollow was somehow restocking itself. It's reasonable the same conclusion would have been reached if they'd just explored/marked them all and not found the final dungeon. That either MitD mismarked stuff *or* that some dungeons restocked, or something else happened.

While it's possible that TE might have completely changed directions, I think we still have to go on the assumption that they have some information that tells them that exploring the dungeons is the way to the gate, so it's reasonable that "we mist have missed something" would be the go-to assumption, and summoning the Quinton would have been a likely response. You know. Just to be sure.


I don't know what plan could eliminate a threat like Team Evil with certainty. But there are plenty which stand a better chance than simply relying on Serini's dungeons. The most obvious examples include throwing something at them which actually stand a chance of defeating them. Some examples:
1. Serini's original plan of summoning the rest of the Scribble to attack the attackers (if they were alive and she could pull it off)
2. The current plan which has been forced upon Serini of assembling the strongest force to hand (in this case the Order and the paladins) to attack the attackers.
3. Dorukan attacking the attackers
4. Ghost Soon and a squadron of ghost palasins attacking the attackers

Ok. Except that 1, 3, and 4 are all the same thing (get scribblers to help). That really leaves us with 2. And even that isn't really her "plan" at all.

Again. As Brian has pointed out, we don't actually know what other obstacles exist that Serini may be able to employ.


As you know, some people have been arguing that the defenders of Girard's gate were a real threat to Xykon. I don't think so, and i think the principal proponent of that argument has realised that the defence strategy was founded on a mistaken understanding of the rules (the idea you could cast spells through those little peepholes). But I do think it is closer to being a threat than Serini's gauntlet.

Let's avoid cross thread shenanigans here. But for the record, in that thread, I stated that *you* are the one mistaking the spell casting rules. Claiming that I have realized and recognized that your claim is correct and mine is wrong, when I have done nothing of the sort is more than a little annoying.

I actually do agree with your final assertion though. Girard's gate, having active defenders available, would likely have been a more powerful deterrent to TE than Serini's has been. But again, we don't actually know everything about Serini's gate defenses either. I've pretty consistently ranked Soon's highest, then Girard's, then Lirian's, then Dorukan's. Serini's, IMO probably slots in either right above or right below Girard's depending on what else is there we don't know about.

We don't know what other tricks/traps are there. We also don't know to what degree Serini has "planned for her own death" by teaching her friends/monsters to manage the dungeons in her absense. She certainly seemed confident enough in their defenses to leave them alone for long periods of time, which is something no one else did. Whether that was foolishness on her part, or her knowing something we don't is still left to be determined.


Some of the above ultimately didn't work (eg Xykon defeated Dorukan), and we know that with the benefit of hindsight. But each of them stood (or stand) a much better chance of stopping Xykon than delaying (for two weeks or so) and hoping his party turn on one another.

Let's also recall that the gate defenses were not built specifically with Xykon and Redcloak in mind. I also think that "stopping" does not require "killing". Anything that makes your opponents abandon their attempt is "successful defense". Simply being powerful enough to kill an opponent is not required. And against most opponents, the sheer volume of high level monsters present in Monster Hollow will turn them back. And given she has stated that she can restock/reset the dungeons, this means that you can't just go out, clear a few dungeons, leave for a few months, then come back and try again (the "really slow" method Haley mentions). You have to have the ability to just sit there plugging away at those dungeons until you defeat them all, and do so with a speed and constant presence that precludes any restocking by Serini.

And even then, we don't know what ability she has to reset the marks. It's entirely possible that Serini can trivially use backstage to pop in to any of the currently cleared dungeons that they've already gone into with the Quinton, walk up to the now empty final room, and do some quick ritual that resets that trap, thus preventing TE from triggering the entrance to the final dungeon. We just don't know.


I admit that despite bringing it up, I also felt kind of weird about her end of existence lamentation. She took the paladins out, and seemed confident her master plan would take out the Order, but still lamented existence ending. I was kind of thinking it was maybe a moment of clarity where she realized that despite Xykon's goal being to 'rule the world', whatever he was going to try to do with the planet-destroying monster would still only end badly. And she was just too stubborn to let herself admit that risk whenever she was dealing with other people? But, no, that doesn't really seem to be the case.

Possible. I'll also point out, since a couple people have mentioned it, that realistically Serini *should* have taken out the Order. It was only by a frankly ridiculous series of bad luck/rolls that the Order managed to defeat her. I once counted up the number of times she missed Haley with her blowgun and crossbow attacks (somewhere around 10 IIRC). It's a pretty amazingly unlikely set of events. And if she'd hit Haley even once, despite the entire bit with Sunny's eye closing mistake, the Order was still locked down and could not defeat Serini.

Even setting aside the countering lucky series of failed saving throws against Sunny's eyes, the reality is that once Serini hit V the only actual threat was eliminated (because V could fly and was out of the line of effect of Sunny's eye). Once V was hit, you aim the main eye back on the group, and they're back to being locked down again. The only actual threat was Haley being able to continue to not get hit several more times, while climbing up and jumping on Serini. The idea that out of a dozen or so shots, she only hit Roy twice, and V once is frankly stunningly bad. Should have gotten Haley on round 2 or so. After that, even with the eye blink, V gets hit one round after that, and it's back to the entire party locked down, and picking them off one by one.

[Larsaan]

Tensions were high there, true, but it wasn't that level of mistrust. Xykon wasn't at that point doubting that the ritual did what Redcloak said it did, and Redcloak wasn't making moves behind Xykon's back like the phylactery switch. I think you're underestimating the difference of the kind of tension there-- it's one thing for them to hate each other; it's another for, say, Xykon to realize the ritual doesn't do what Redcloak says it does at all.

MitD does not need to drive a brand-new wedge between them. He simply has to have the capacity to do or say something that could drive the already-existing one to a point it boils over (if you'll forgive the mixed metaphor).

I don't know what would finally be turning point or what that would look like. I just think that with the level of mistrust between them, the more time passes, the likelihood (whatever that is) of them finally turning on each other goes up.

Well, my point was that the truth of the Ritual is the only thing that could turn them against each other at this point, and I don't see how Xykon would find out about that. The only person who knows is Redcloak, who definitely isn't going to tell, and Xykon doesn't have the know-how to research it himself, or any other nearby spellcasters to do it for him.

Mistrust is to be expected between them, they've been in a power struggle since the day Xykon turned into a lich. Should the truth about the phylactery come out, the punishment would be nasty... but it wouldn't really change anything, not in any meaningful way.



...



Actually, there is one other thing that might change their dynamic; Redcloak breaking out of his sunk cost fallacy. However, the only one with a snowball's chance in hell of MAYBE accomplishing that is Oona, and the only reason she has the insight to try it in the first place is because of the showdown with Durkon and Minrah.

[Liquor Box]

Serini is smart enough to realize that there is no such thing as a defense that will hold out forever against a serious enough threat. Certainly none of the other Scribblers had such a defense. Agreeing with that premise is like agreeing that water is usually wet.

There are defences that could hold off Xykon by killing him, as I mentioned a page or so back. Serini's just isn't one of them.


And this is the biggest point. As you have stated, there's a whole lot of potential stuff that can happen while "slowing folks down" that can result in the folks attempting to get to the gate being thwarted.

Yes, like what happened at Dorukan's gate, which managed to slow Xykon down for a lot longer than Serini's.


Ok. Except that 1, 3, and 4 are all the same thing (get scribblers to help). That really leaves us with 2. And even that isn't really her "plan" at all.

1, 2, 3 and 4 are all basically the same - get something powerful to attack the threat to the gate. The Scribbles mostly have themselves available, so it is mostly them.

Serini has said that her defences can't hold off a serious threat like Xykon. Someone speculated than no defences could do so - and I pointed out that several gates had defences that could possibly do so. You are right though, the best gate defences have all used different combinations of the Scribble themselves.


Again. As Brian has pointed out, we don't actually know what other obstacles exist that Serini may be able to employ.

We don't know at all. What we do know is, whatever she may have up her sleeve, she doesn't think her Gauntlet will hold out against him, it will only slow him down


Let's avoid cross thread shenanigans here. But for the record, in that thread, I stated that *you* are the one mistaking the spell casting rules. Claiming that I have realized and recognized that your claim is correct and mine is wrong, when I have done nothing of the sort is more than a little annoying.

No cross thread shenanigans here. At the time I posted that remark I had pointed out that casting through the pinholes was against the rules, and you hadn't responded. I assumed you'd accepted the point and moved on, so I said so. Of course, I was proven mistaken as you later did respond arguing a different (IMO tortured) definition, so my comment in this thread no longer holds true.


We don't know what other tricks/traps are there. We also don't know to what degree Serini has "planned for her own death" by teaching her friends/monsters to manage the dungeons in her absense. She certainly seemed confident enough in their defenses to leave them alone for long periods of time, which is something no one else did. Whether that was foolishness on her part, or her knowing something we don't is still left to be determined.

As I noted above, we don't know what other tricks she has, but we do know she thinks they will do nothing more than slow a serious threat like Xykon down.

As for planning for her own death, that is irrelevant, as we have been talking (in this thread) about how strong Serini's defence is now, when she's alive. You and I just went down the rabbit hole of what gate might be stronger after Girard/Dorukan had died, because Dorukan's is obviously stronger when he's alive.


Let's also recall that the gate defenses were not built specifically with Xykon and Redcloak in mind. I also think that "stopping" does not require "killing". Anything that makes your opponents abandon their attempt is "successful defense". Simply being powerful enough to kill an opponent is not required.

Generally I would agree that we should consider possible attackers other than Reddy and Xykon when assessing a gate. But in this case, we were talking specifically about Serini's gate holding up against Xykon.

I also agree that killing the attacker isn't the only way to succesfully defend. But, when I pointed out Serini's lack of confidence in her own defence, it was put to me that no defence could hold out a serious threat forever. I responded by suggesting that several could (and used ones that could kill the attacker as an example). It's certainly conceivable that others could.


And against most opponents, the sheer volume of high level monsters present in Monster Hollow will turn them back. And given she has stated that she can restock/reset the dungeons, this means that you can't just go out, clear a few dungeons, leave for a few months, then come back and try again (the "really slow" method Haley mentions). You have to have the ability to just sit there plugging away at those dungeons until you defeat them all, and do so with a speed and constant presence that precludes any restocking by Serini.

i agree. Serini said she thought people who weren't serious might die.


And even then, we don't know what ability she has to reset the marks. It's entirely possible that Serini can trivially use backstage to pop in to any of the currently cleared dungeons that they've already gone into with the Quinton, walk up to the now empty final room, and do some quick ritual that resets that trap, thus preventing TE from triggering the entrance to the final dungeon. We just don't know.

I don't see much point in speculating about the millions of possibilities about what tricks Serini might and might not have. What we do know is that she doesn't expect her gauntlet to be able to stop Xykon, only slow him down.


Possible. I'll also point out, since a couple people have mentioned it, that realistically Serini *should* have taken out the Order. It was only by a frankly ridiculous series of bad luck/rolls that the Order managed to defeat her. I once counted up the number of times she missed Haley with her blowgun and crossbow attacks (somewhere around 10 IIRC). It's a pretty amazingly unlikely set of events. And if she'd hit Haley even once, despite the entire bit with Sunny's eye closing mistake, the Order was still locked down and could not defeat Serini.

It may be that the chance of Serini missing Hayley several times with her blowgun was highly improbable. But the chance of so many of the order failing their saves and being disabled by the beholder was also highly improbable. Serini was lucky to get as close as she did to defeating the Order.

[brian 333]

I find it amazing how reliant the above argument is upon what Serini said when we know that at the very least Serini is withholding information.

Yes, Serini's design is intended to slow down a serious threat. Yes Serini's fallback plan was to assemble her old team.

There is no room between those things for something else to happen?

What if Xykon's spell works and MitD eats Redcloak?

What if Xykon realizes the ritual won't work the way he wants it to and he kills Redcloak?

What if the Quinton annoys Xykon, Xykon attacks him, and the Quinton kills Xykon?

Delay is a very useful tactic, especially when defending. It makes people do stupid things they otherwise would not have done, and it gives time for unexpected circumstances to arise.

I keep trying to point out that there is also a very broad spectrum between 'He's unstoppable,' and, 'I give up.' Serini refuses to directly confront Xykon, and she did not want The Order to do so either. But, if she had given up already, resigned to the ending of the world, why has she not simply opened the door to the final dungeon? Is it possible that she wants to see it play out before she gives up? If she knows it is going to fail and Xykon is going to win, wouldn't her best chance to save what she can of the world involve some kind of accomodations with TE?

Applying logic:
If Serini has nothing to gain by delay and much to potentially gain through cooperation, delay and passive obstruction are counterproductive.

If Serini can potentially benefit through delay and passive obstruction, then attacking TE or allowing TE to be attacked is counterproductive.

Logically, Serini believes there is a potential benefit to delay and passive obstruction, and pronouncements that she has no other plan than to call upon now dead friends are incorrect.


Epiphany!
Serini has The Scribble bound by oath and can call upon them as Oathspirits like Eugene! She is waiting for Xykon's soul gem to break so she can get the band back together for one more benefit concert!

[Precure]

Another negative point for Serini: her Dungeon isn't magically filled with monsters as we assumed before, and she had to find and bring more monsters to the dungeon to replace the ones Oona's folk hunted.

[brian 333]

Accidental double post

[Precure]

I find it amazing how reliant the above argument is upon what Serini said when we know that at the very least Serini is withholding information.

Not really. There is other things that confirms it.

[brian 333]

Not really. There is other things that confirms it.

And things which refute it. Speculation is speculative, and the less data we have, the less accurate out speculations tend to be.

For example, some posters speculated that there was a means of determining which characters had gotten to the end of each dungeon. Having no evidence of that I hypothesized a mechanic where such would not be necessary. Evidence was then shown in comic that such a means did exist, and my speculation was proven wrong.

Note that the point I'm trying to make is not that the presented speculation regarding Serini's plan is wrong. It is entirely possible that Serini has no plan now and is willing to wait for the end in the comfort to which she has become accustomed.

I speculate that this is not in her nature. I am prepared to be proven wrong. I am not trying to prove anyone else wrong either, but to open up the possibility that there is another plan, even if it has only a marginal chance of success, than to sit back and stop anyone from dying while trying to keep everyone in the world from dying.

(The part in italics is the fundamental logical flaw I am having trouble with. If anyone can clear that up for me, I may be more accepting of the idea that Serini has no plan.)

[halfeye]

Accidental double post

You can delete your own posts here. It's tricky, but I've done it several times.

[Peelee]

You can delete your own posts here. It's tricky, but I've done it several times.

Its just as easy as editing a post.

[Liquor Box]

I find it amazing how reliant the above argument is upon what Serini said when we know that at the very least Serini is withholding information.

Well yes, because it is one of the very few pieces of really solid information we have about the effectiveness of her dungeon. It doesn't matter what else she might be withholding, unless she was lying when she said that her dungeon would only slow down a serious threat, then that is good information we can rely on.


Yes, Serini's design is intended to slow down a serious threat. Yes Serini's fallback plan was to assemble her old team.

There is no room between those things for something else to happen?

Yes, I already said I don't think she gave up. I just don't think she holds out much hope that her dungeon will stop Xykon.


What if Xykon's spell works and MitD eats Redcloak?

What if Xykon realizes the ritual won't work the way he wants it to and he kills Redcloak?

What if the Quinton annoys Xykon, Xykon attacks him, and the Quinton kills Xykon?

Yes, it's not impossible that something will happen. Who knows, maybe monster hollow is on top of a volcano, which might erupt and kill Xykon. I agree that delay is marginally better than simply allowing him the gate, just in case something happens. Just like the delay at Dorukan's date meant that the Order showed up.

[halfeye]

Its just as easy as editing a post.

Not quite: There's a box you have to click that says "delete this post this way", and if you don't click that, it doesn't happen, I've done that at least a couple of times.

[Ruck]

Delay is a very useful tactic, especially when defending. It makes people do stupid things they otherwise would not have done, and it gives time for unexpected circumstances to arise.

Yes, and I wanted to highlight and re-emphasize this because a couple of people have tried to tell me recently that delay is pointless. Anything that gives a greater opportunity for something to go wrong in Team Evil's plans-- including just making them take longer and having more time for whatever fissures are between them to grow wider-- has value.

[Precure]

Not quite: There's a box you have to click that says "delete this post this way", and if you don't click that, it doesn't happen, I've done that at least a couple of times.

Not to mention it's rude to delete your post without any explanation, so I had to write "accidental double posting" anytime I had to delete a post.

[Peelee]

Not quite: There's a box you have to click that says "delete this post this way", and if you don't click that, it doesn't happen, I've done that at least a couple of times.
Clicking a box and clicking delete, as opposed to clicking a text field, typing, and then clicking submit.

You're right, its not quite identical. Its also usually easier.

Not to mention it's rude to delete your post without any explanation
That's news to me.

[halfeye]

Not to mention it's rude to delete your post without any explanation, so I had to write "accidental double posting" anytime I had to delete a post.

It can be seen as rude to delete a post someone has replied to, but IMHO that shouldn't apply to a simple accidental double posting.

[brian 333]

I learned something today. I shall have to forget something else to make room in my RAM.

[gbaji]

For example, some posters speculated that there was a means of determining which characters had gotten to the end of each dungeon. Having no evidence of that I hypothesized a mechanic where such would not be necessary. Evidence was then shown in comic that such a means did exist, and my speculation was proven wrong.

Yup. IIRC, there was initially the "some kind of magic marks" theory, and you proposed the idea that the lights at the end of each dungoen was some form of trigger instead. Either was reasonably plausible. I actually do think the "magic marks" bit does open up some additional problems, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that they will only do so if they are relevant to the story Rich is telling. Which means.... Maybe? :smallsmile:


Yes, I already said I don't think she gave up. I just don't think she holds out much hope that her dungeon will stop Xykon.

Sure. But I think several posters are of the opinion that the dungeon doesn't necessarily have to stop Xykon. Just delaying TE has value, since it opens the possbility that "something else" could happen. Even if it's a sliim hope, it's better than no hope at all.

And I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and declare that this is exactly what did happen. Maybe not in a form that Serini would like (the Order showing up). But that's still "something".


I learned something today. I shall have to forget something else to make room in my RAM.

Feels like that's how it works sometimes, doesn't it?

[Liquor Box]

Yes, and I wanted to highlight and re-emphasize this because a couple of people have tried to tell me recently that delay is pointless. Anything that gives a greater opportunity for something to go wrong in Team Evil's plans-- including just making them take longer and having more time for whatever fissures are between them to grow wider-- has value.

Not sure, if this is directed at me. But to be clear I am not saying delay is pointless. It keeps the door open for the slim chance that some circumstance may intervene. I just think the value is low compared to something that has a chance of actually destroying him.



Sure. But I think several posters are of the opinion that the dungeon doesn't necessarily have to stop Xykon. Just delaying TE has value, since it opens the possbility that "something else" could happen. Even if it's a sliim hope, it's better than no hope at all.

And I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and declare that this is exactly what did happen. Maybe not in a form that Serini would like (the Order showing up). But that's still "something".[/QUOTE]

Agree with both of those. Although the something that did happen was undermined somewhat by Serini trying to prevent it. It's also what happened at Dorukan's.

[KorvinStarmast]

Whatever we call the fiends in this connection, since their deal can be described as a fixed-term lease with an occupancy date yet to be determined (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html), we can confidently award Vaarsuvius the title of Lessor of Two Evils (and formerly of three). *golf clap* :smallcool:

Point of order, she lamented the encroaching end of existence (i read it as all of existence, not just hers) when Team Evil and the paladins were there and the Order was imminent - literally every group that destroyed all the other Gates. I hardly think such lamentation is out of hand, considering (and, i should note, she wasn't lamenting the world being ruled by an insane lich, she was lamenting the end of existence). Yep. Which fits hand in glove with her preference to exist, with Xykon as king of the world, rather than not existing - which she expressed to the Paladins.

I think i can agree with all of that. Is that allowed? :smallconfused:

I interpret it as, "Serini still hopes for something other than the end of the world." Her view on this can be summarized as: existing, and having a {censored} rule the world is better than not existing.

Serini is smart enough to realize that there is no such thing as a defense that will hold out forever against a serious enough threat. Certainly none of the other Scribblers had such a defense. Agreeing with that premise is like agreeing that water is usually wet. Not to mention Murphy's Laws of Combat, which suggest to never interrupt the enemy when they are making a mistake. (Might also be a SunTzuism).

Delay is a very useful tactic, especially when defending. It makes people do stupid things they otherwise would not have done, and it gives time for unexpected circumstances to arise. Clausewitz noted that both defense and negotiation/parley are ways to use time to your advantage.

Epiphany! Serini has The Scribble bound by oath and can call upon them as Oathspirits like Eugene! She is waiting for Xykon's soul gem to break so she can get the band back together for one more benefit concert! Neat idea, but this comic / story is about OotStick, not OotScribble. Plus, Soon has already faded off into the afterlife since Miko broke the gem. I don't think he's recallable.

Another negative point for Serini: her Dungeon isn't magically filled with monsters as we assumed before, and she had to find and bring more monsters to the dungeon to replace the ones Oona's folk hunted. And for someone who is a monster advocate and friend, she's hiring monsters to come and be killed by Xykon/other intruders, and the bugbear tribe.

Yes, and I wanted to highlight and re-emphasize this because a couple of people have tried to tell me recently that delay is pointless. Anything that gives a greater opportunity for something to go wrong in Team Evil's plans-- including just making them take longer and having more time for whatever fissures are between them to grow wider-- has value. Aye, per my Clausewitzian point further up.

[Precure]

And for someone who is a monster advocate and friend, she's hiring monsters to come and be killed by Xykon/other intruders, and the bugbear tribe.

Oona: "Nice hunt we got, good meat to feed young."

Serini: "Dammit! Stop killing my friends/coworkers/Gate's defenders!" *cries*

[Doug Lampert]

Not to mention Murphy's Laws of Combat, which suggest to never interrupt the enemy when they are making a mistake. (Might also be a SunTzuism).

It's actually usually credited to Napoleon (https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1182-never-interrupt-your-enemy-when-he-is-making-a-mistake) IME, although I find one source on the web that credits Sun Tzu, but doesn't list a chapter and I don't have a copy handy to check.

[pearl jam]

They could easily have both expressed the same idea without one being the influence of the other as well, of course.

[Wintermoot]

They could easily have both expressed the same idea without one being the influence of the other as well, of course.

"Or neither of them might have said anything of the sort, and its just the kind of thing that frequently gets misattributed to them."

-- George Washington Carver

[bertrc]

I am still surprised that Rich did not lampshade "Why didn't you make this a gauntlet and a shell game?! a la: You need to traverse all dungeons, getting those magic tattoos, plus you need to know there is this back door through the traps and reach my hidden, sealed-by-magic-rock, lair where you get the final tattoo."

Roy could have yelled this, after Sirini would reply "Well, uh . . . Obviously I would have . . ."; taken a beat (panel); then closed with: "Shut up!"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html

[Peelee]

I am still surprised that Rich did not lampshade "Why didn't you make this a gauntlet and a shell game?! a la: You need to traverse all dungeons, getting those magic tattoos, plus you need to know there is this back door through the traps and reach my hidden, sealed-by-magic-rock, lair where you get the final tattoo."

Roy could have yelled this, after Sirini would reply "Well, uh . . . Obviously I would have . . ."; taken a beat (panel); then closed with: "Shut up!"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html

Well, I would guess because its not a shell game at all, from what we know of it.

[bertrc]

Well, I would guess because its not a shell game at all, from what we know of it.

Well, yeah. That's why I am surprised. For some reason Sirini seems to have simply made this a guantlet and not a shell game, yet nobody in OotS et al has critiqued that oversight.

All of us see the obvious choice in making this dungeon both a gauntlet and a shell game. But Srini only made it a gauntlet. Once you beat your way through all the entrances, you are in the final dungeon. (Unless she is lying about all that)

Given the amount of time she must have had creating this, it is surprising that she never thought: "Gee, wouldn't it be great and effective if, after hitting every single dungeon, the mouth-breathers find a big fat nothin'. They won't even know they also have to find my hidden back door maintenance tunnels and get the final MacGuffin crystal to open the portal."

Roy is certainly smart enough to see such an option immediately. He could then have critiqued it (the lampshade) where the handwave is that Srini just didn't think of it (delivered as a joke and homage to the earlier strip)

Ah well, maybe Sirini is still lying and there is a larger shell game going on.

[Emberlily]

the fact that characters we know to be insightful and clever have seen the information we have and none of them have gone "hey wait a minute this is stupid you should do this thing that sounds obvious to some readers instead" is probably a sign that that isn't actually an obviously better solution within the story. maybe the resource demands of setting up both contingencies is well known enough that ppl don't immediately criticize the plan for not being impossibly expensively perfect, or maybe there's an understanding that simplicity helps prevent magically divining solutions, or maybe it's something as simple as serini doing a clearly obvious character-motivation-based action is important enough narratively that muddying it by having characters nitpick a 50-year-old decision in hindsight for the sake of nitpicking it would only lessen the story (and this is a story that runs on in-universe 'if it makes a better story that can be enough reason for something to happen')

(also as an aside I kno some ppl have a strong interest in taking serini down a peg all the time but like, I don't see any compelling reason to make her pull an early-story belkar just bc it'd be a callback to another halfling's behavior)

[Kish]

I think the answer is that she made a gauntlet and not a shell game because the gate guards she set up were to honor Kraagor's belief in the power of physical might, not Girard's belief in the power of deception.

As for why didn't Serini bring anything herself to the Gate's protections, she did: the understanding that she couldn't build a defense that would hold off a truly powerful enemy by herself, that the Order of the Scribble would need to work together to protect the Gates, just as each of the other Gates fell with only one member of the Order protecting them. People keep looking at her class and expecting "deception" to be her thing, but again--that was Girard. She was the one who prevented the Order from actually murdering each other.

[Emberlily]

serini's survivor's guilt & feelings of inadequacy compared to the rest of the party are both well-established and compelling, and the way those combined together for the longest time with Kraagor makes it very dramatically appropriate and satisfying that she's sublimating all of what she, serini, should be expected to bring to the table to make a fitting memorial for her lost comrade.

and she is bringing in her expertise and skillset (in obvious ways like traps, and in less blunt ways like the strokes of the setup), but the core and essence is her image of Kraagor that she's wrapping herself around. I like it! and by having the various members of the order see the plan, with their own perspectives and skillsets, and not immediately go "hey this plan sucks actually" is I think a deliberate choice to try to tell the audience that we shouldn't try to second guess her and undermine compelling character decisions for 100% Rational Foolproof Planning sorta fanservice setups bc what look to some readers as glaringly obvious alternatives might not be so glaringly obvious after all

edit addition: also, my apologies bertrc, but I think I mistook u for someone who had been involved in the conversation earlier when discussions around "is there a reason to make something hard by straightforward rather than in any way tricky" were abundant, so if this comes across as excessively forceful of an argument I apologise for that

[OvisCaedo]

"why not add one MORE layer of security" is also a pretty endless rabbit hole to go down for things a person obviously could have done. You can always have added one more hoop to jump through ad infinitum.

The gauntlet is already a pretty herculean task for someone to overcome, and Serini correctly identified herself that if a powerful enough force showed up that was REALLY determined to get through, no amount of defenses would ever hold out forever. Trying to nitpick extra layers that could have been is kind of silly, and I don't think there'd be any point in anyone in-comic trying to call her out on it. If there was a fundamental massive hole in the defense, that might be worth pointing out.

[bertrc]

(also as an aside I kno some ppl have a strong interest in taking serini down a peg all the time but like, I don't see any compelling reason to make her pull an early-story belkar just bc it'd be a callback to another halfling's behavior)

:-D I love Serini!!! Nah, I didn't mention this to bring her down a peg. I just felt that not using the backdoor maintenance hallways as part of the challenge, thus adding a requirement of rogue to the requirement of brawn, abandons a massive force multiplier ("force" meaning "Increase of difficulty") It is a big enough bump that I don't think it risks the rabbit hole.

(Also, I think a repeat of Belkar's reaction to V pointing out an obvious aspect in his very well thought out plan would be funny, particularly coming from a fellow halfling)

[brian 333]

She could have put one of the tattoo traps on the moon, on an obscure pebble in the middle of nowhere with no indication that it even exists anywhere.

She could be living in an obscure town with all of the tattoos, but she destroyed one of the traps preventing anyone from getting the last one.

She could have built an elaborate complex in the North Pole, but the real gate is in the South Pole and only protected by a mile-thick glacier.

She could have done lots of things differently.

Would it have made a better story?

Did you enjoy that summer-long campaign where the DM thought it was cute that there was no chalice at the end of the quest for the Holy Chalice Of Life?

[Emberlily]

:-D I love Serini!!! Nah, I didn't mention this to bring her down a peg. I just felt that not using the backdoor maintenance hallways as part of the challenge, thus adding a requirement of rogue to the requirement of brawn, abandons a massive force multiplier ("force" meaning "Increase of difficulty") It is a big enough bump that I don't think it risks the rabbit hole.

(Also, I think a repeat of Belkar's reaction to V pointing out an obvious aspect in his very well thought out plan would be funny, particularly coming from a fellow halfling)

fair enough! I'll assume it's obvious why my first guess to someone drawing a comparison with early-strip belkar would be that it wasn't meant as flattering, though

(also I'm a permanent member of messed up grandmas in fiction defense squad)

[KorvinStarmast]

People keep looking at her class and expecting "deception" to be her thing, but again--that was Girard. She was the one who prevented the Order from actually murdering each other. That last bit seems to get lost in the noise now that we have met Serini "on screen" as it were.

She could have put one of the tattoo traps on the moon, on an obscure pebble in the middle of nowhere with no indication that it even exists anywhere.

She could be living in an obscure town with all of the tattoos, but she destroyed one of the traps preventing anyone from getting the last one.

She could have built an elaborate complex in the North Pole, but the real gate is in the South Pole and only protected by a mile-thick glacier.

She could have done lots of things differently.

Would it have made a better story?

Did you enjoy that summer-long campaign where the DM thought it was cute that there was no chalice at the end of the quest for the Holy Chalice Of Life? And a nice closer. :smallcool: