Gestalt-lite. Thoughts on progression

[TyGuy]

I've been thinking about how bad multiclassing is in 5e and how it's so appealing despite its flaws. I think customization is one of the biggest draws.

It seems to me that the majority of multiclass builds only desire a dip. Suggesting the customization or boons are quickly realized.

Gestalt offers the customization of multiclassing without the sacrifices a normal build must make. But it's too complicated for a lot of casual players. And it may be overkill if much of the customization options are achieved in the first few levels.

I implemented free feats to satisfying effect. We do a free feat at the start of every tier (levels 1, 5, 11, 17). It does wonders for variety and distinguished PCs. Though it's not quite the same level of a multiclass.

And thus I'm playing with the idea of gestalt light. The concept is to give the assets of a multiclass dip for free.
I think the "free levels" will be 1-3 of the donor. Skill proficiencies follow the multiclass table. Equipment profs follow gestalt (just get them as if it's the main class at level 1). No extra save profs, HP, or HD. Spell slots run in parallel instead of additional caster levels. Donor spellcasting modifier can convert to the main class's if it has spellcasting.

Now, something I'm not sure of. The stages to provide the free levels. I don't think the start of each tier really works for this. I want it to come online in time to get plenty of play, and to equalize all the options since classes get their specializations at 1, 2, or 3. What do you think? Levels 2, 4, 6?

Any other thoughts on the matter?

[Kane0]

A super easy way to do it is completely ignore the chassis of the second class and only grant the features. Like a free feat but that feat is 'gain the abilities of a level 1 [class]', then levels 2 and 3 respectively.

I'd go with levels 2, 7 and 12 or 4, 9 and 14. Not the same levels you generally get subclass bonuses, ASIs or big power bumps like 5 and 11 (though of course every class varies).

[TyGuy]

A super easy way to do it is completely ignore the chassis of the second class and only grant the features. Like a free feat but that feat is 'gain the abilities of a level 1 [class]', then levels 2 and 3 respectively.
What do you consider chassis? Everything in the block under the class table? Wondering where you're drawing the line on spellcasting & slots.



I'd go with levels 2, 7 and 12 or 4, 9 and 14. Not the same levels you generally get subclass bonuses, ASIs or big power bumps like 5 and 11 (though of course every class varies).
I still haven't played or ran a campaign that went past 10. I feel like anything past 9 is simply not going to be realized outside one-shots.
Maybe don't prescribe the levels... let it be player driven. Could work in an XP campaign at least. Let the players buy their "features levels" with XP. Giving them the choice of how much they want to prioritize diverging XP from their main class.

[Kane0]

What do you consider chassis? Everything in the block under the class table? Wondering where you're drawing the line on spellcasting & slots.

Yes HP and Proficiencies (saves, skills, equipment, tools, languages)
If you're only talking a max of three levels in this fashion you could double-up on spellcasting or just treat it as multiclassing (so bonus levels of progression). The latter is probably simpler.



I still haven't played or ran a campaign that went past 10. I feel like anything past 9 is simply not going to be realized outside one-shots.

That may be connected to your problem. Perhaps just try a higher level game first if you can, see if your experience differs. A lot of multiclassing doesn't happen until certain big breakpoints (especially 5) so you just aren't seeing it due to the span of time/levels available to do so.

[stoutstien]

A super easy way to do it is completely ignore the chassis of the second class and only grant the features. Like a free feat but that feat is 'gain the abilities of a level 1 [class]', then levels 2 and 3 respectively.

I'd go with levels 2, 7 and 12 or 4, 9 and 14. Not the same levels you generally get subclass bonuses, ASIs or big power bumps like 5 and 11 (though of course every class varies).

Yea. I call this the hybrid approach. It's level by level but is also inherently more limited than either class as a single option.
It would be kinda difficult to do in 5e due to how random the major stuff is distributed lv 1-3 but it wouldn't be hard to fix that.

[Greywander]

I've actually tackled a similar problem. What I came up with really is a hybridization between multiclassing and gestalt, and handily solves issues I had with both.

The premise is pretty simple: only your highest level in a single class counts towards your character level. Your "extra" class levels in other classes are handled just like the extra levels of a gestalt character, the difference being that you're still buying each class level one-by-one instead of getting a second class level for free. The main impact this has is that multiclassing (i.e. not leveling your highest class) doesn't increase your HP/HD or your proficiency bonus, but it also doesn't increase the XP required to level up again.

My rules for gestalt levels allow you to trade up an HD, and gain +1 HP for every step higher the new HD is (giving you the same average HP as if you had that HD all along), but otherwise you don't gain any HP or HD from these extra levels. The order of your levels doesn't matter either; you always have the best HD you could from the classes that you have. The only other thing is spell slots; I let caster level stack, but cap it at 20. You can optionally cap it at your character level so you can't double up and get high level slots early. Everything else is handled using the normal multiclassing rules. That's it, it's that simple.

Interestingly, if you stay as a single classed character, then this is functionally identical to vanilla. The advantage of doing so is that you reach higher levels sooner than someone who multiclasses. If you're going to multiclass, you want to do it early and often to get the most bang for you XP bucks. One thing I like about this is how it ends up looking like a flexible gestalt option: you can get as many extra class levels as you're willing to pay the XP for, so you have to make a choice whether to focus on one class to reach high levels faster or spread yourself out to benefit from more class features at the cost of being behind in your character level (and thus HP and proficiency bonus).

Now, there is an issue with this, and that's that there pretty much isn't a reason not to dip at least one level into every class. At 1st level, each dip is 300 XP a pop, which will hold you back in the short term but you'll barely notice the difference later on. So we need a way to limit how many classes you can take. One possibility is to just limit you to a number of classes equal to your proficiency bonus. This allows you to immediately dip into a second class, but requires you to wait until 5th level to take on a third, 9th level for a fourth, etc., and by then it isn't so cheap to dip anymore. Another possible limit is that you can't dip into a new class until you find a member of that class who is at least 5th level who is willing to train you.

For good measure, I also wrote up some rules for "half" levels in classes, and dipping only puts you at half a level in that class, with a second level up needed to fully reach 1st level. Basically, because of how frontloaded classes tend to be, I just split their 1st level features across two levels. It's actually kind of nice for giving you that feeling of learning the new class; like you don't just instantly get six spells and three cantrips with a wizard dip, you get one cantrip and four spells known, only one of which you can prepare.

I'd also recommend pairing this with another house rule that allows spending epic boons on class levels, which are again treated like the extra levels of a gestalt character, so you stay locked at 20th level. For this, there is no limit on the number of classes, as leveling up is as expensive as it will ever be. (Well, technically the most expensive is going from 19 to 20, which costs 50k compared to the 30k of epic boons.) And yes, this means you can eventually raise every class to 20, but in practice the campaign will end long before you even get close. Most campaigns don't even make it to 20. But this does grant some peace of mind in that you don't have to worry about how your build will "end up" at 20, because you will always be able to add more on to it (assuming the campaign keeps going).