Can anyone graphically explain Kraagor's dungeon to me?

[Finagle]

I don't understand the "swapovers". Maybe I'm stupid. Can someone make a drawing, possibly in MS-Paint, to show me what's going on?

Also, why do they need to go through every dungeon? How does the dungeon have awareness that they've gone through every one?

Where's our best guess about where the gate is located?

[ZhonLord]

I don't understand the "swapovers". Maybe I'm stupid. Can someone make a drawing, possibly in MS-Paint, to show me what's going on?

Also, why do they need to go through every dungeon? How does the dungeon have awareness that they've gone through every one?

Where's our best guess about where the gate is located?

Sorry it's not graphical, but this is the most thorough explanation I can offer:

1. The swapovers are portals leading to a series of mini-dungeons scattered all over the world. Each one is linked to the central focal point of Kraagor's tomb, but the other end could be anywhere on the Northern, Southern or Western continent.

2. Each mini-dungeon is then filled with the strongest, deadliest monsters Serini can get her hands on. These become the guardians of the Tomb.

3. Each swapover entrance has a set of divination runes mixed in. These runes allow people on either side of the swapovers to see the other side, making the illusion of an unbroken corridor.

Presumably there is a separate divination at the heart of each mini-dungeon that tracks whether a person has successfully "cleared" the place.

4. When all doors have been entered by the same individual, and the heart of each chamber is reached, the sum total adds together to unlock the path to the FINAL dungeon, at the end of which is the Gate. Think of it like a giant lock with hundreds of keyholes, and each dungeon cleared puts a copy of that person's key in a given lock.

As to where it is, I'm going to guess it's right underneath the stone pedestal where Kraagor's statue was until the point when Redcloak animated it. I'm betting it'll rise out of the ground like a pillar or monolith and reveal a ramp/stair downward to the final dungeon.

[Fyraltari]

https://i.ibb.co/wwCwvrj/Swap-over.png

Hope this helps. The swap-over is in green

[Tass]

https://i.ibb.co/wwCwvrj/Swap-over.png

Hope this helps. The swap-over is in green

Yes. Exactly.

And just to clarify and explain for anyone who might need it: The black lines are the physical connections, but the swapovers transport you from red to red or from blue to blue when you cross. Also when you are in a blue area the swapover is scrying on the other blue area so that it looks like a solid continuation, but from the the red places (where only "employees" are supposed to be) it does not. Therefore the order saw Xykon, but Xykon didn't see them. Roy would have seen Blackwing if he had looked behind when he poked through, but blackwing would only see the outside.

[SlashDash]

The point of going through every dungeon is to honor both Kraggor being a barbarian - as in you need to survive a lot of tough fights - while also honoring Serini being a cunning rogue.

If you're looking for a "logical" and not symbolic reason? Note the conversation between Roy and "Julia" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1276.html). She tells him that dungeon is likely in the center, because if it was near one of the edges, it would make it that anyone going methodically has a 50-50 shot of getting their asap.

But one could also argue that putting in near the center would just send someone to start from the center and go back and forth.

Either way, going through all the doors is the only way to ensure that someone isn't just lucky on a first try.



You need to go through all of the dungeons but likely fast enough before the monsters respawn.
Once you go through all of them, then the entrance to the last dungeon would be opened.


As for how does it work, V mentioned earlier (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1223.html) that she saw signs of divination in the swapovers.

This makes it likely that somehow you are "marked" by each door and likely that the divination checks to see if you passed through all of them. If you did, you'll go to the final dungeon. If you don't, you'll go to a another dungeon you need to complete.

[Roland Itiative]

I wonder if the dungeons do have to be cleared by the same person/group for it to count. So far each Gate's protection has had one flaw that led to its defenses being circunvented. So far Serini's defenses seem spotless, Xykon and co are just working within the confines of the system she set up on purpose. But the flaw in her system could be "didn't account for teamwork", as she grew jaded after her party split up.

[theangelJean]

I wonder if the dungeons do have to be cleared by the same person/group for it to count. So far each Gate's protection has had one flaw that led to its defenses being circunvented. So far Serini's defenses seem spotless, Xykon and co are just working within the confines of the system she set up on purpose. But the flaw in her system could be "didn't account for teamwork", as she grew jaded after her party split up.

Wouldn't this act as an extra fail-safe, rather than a flaw? If she didn't account for teamwork, the rule would then be "only a person who has reached the end of all the dungeons will find the entrance to the final dungeon". If a team split up and each explored some of the doors, when they had explored all the dungeons combined, none of them individually would qualify to reach the final dungeon - which is exactly what Serini wants. It isn't *just* a test of endurance and strength, after all.

[gbaji]

Which actually leads us to an interesting question: Can the Order actually follow Team Evil into the "final dungeon"? If I were constructing this, I'd have some sort of "tag" on each person that identifies "reached the end of dungeon X", and once someone tries to pass through a swapover with all 100 (or whatever number) tags on them, they are transported to the final dungeon with the gate. Until that condition is met, anyone walking through just goes to whatever dungeon is normally associated with that door.

Which makes things really tricky for the Order.

[Fyraltari]

Which actually leads us to an interesting question: Can the Order actually follow Team Evil into the "final dungeon"?

That would be what the backstage area is for, I think.

[KorvinStarmast]

Which actually leads us to an interesting question: Can the Order actually follow Team Evil into the "final dungeon"? Why can't they accompany TE to the final dungeon? Durkon has a chance to maybe talk to Redcloak again.

[brian 333]

Why can't they accompany TE to the final dungeon? Durkon has a chance to maybe talk to Redcloak again.

I don't think Durkon could say anything that Redcloak wants to hear anyway.

And since Serini believes conflict is the greatest danger to the gate, I do not think she will show the OotS how to bypass her entire dungeon crawl. I think the dungeons will prove successful at preventing both teams from getting to the final gate.

I can't graphically demonstrate how the swapovers work, mostly because I have zero skills with digital imagery. But also, because we don't know.

What we do know is that one swapover is a two-way link from Monster Hollow to a dungeon in an unspecified other location, and that bypassing it using the method Haley employed allows access to the backstage area. Without bypassing it again, the swapover appears to grant visual and aural observation of the original entrance, but only grants access to the dead end of presumably the same backstage tunnel they occupy. In other words, from backstage it is not a portal or whatever, but only an observation port.

Use as is: Go from Monster Hollow to dungeon, or dungeon to Monster Hollow. View same.

Bypass with osquip method: Go from Monster Hollow to Backstage.

Use from Backstage: Go to Backstage tunnel dead end. View Monster Hollow entrance.

Literally everything else is speculation.

Some good speculation, in many cases, but not demonstrable by anything seen in comic.

Logically, all the swapovers work the same way. This is not demonstrated, except by the fact that the bugbears do not report otherwise, and TE appears to be going in and out of the dungeons they visit.

Does each door link to a unique single dungeon? Or are the doors and dungeons randomized or variable in some way?

Does the osquip method, used from Backstage, get them back to the Monster Hollow entrance? (Haley thinks so.)

What does a viewer see from the dead end?

Is there another setting on the gate that allows access to a third point? Like use with a password or key item, for example.

Is there a way to turn off or control the portals that is a part of its original design?

What part do the swapovers play in the eventual discovery of the gate?

And so on.

[Psyren]

And since Serini believes conflict is the greatest danger to the gate, I do not think she will show the OotS how to bypass her entire dungeon crawl. I think the dungeons will prove successful at preventing both teams from getting to the final gate.

Conflict WAS the greatest danger to the Gate in her view. Now, she knows it's the gods (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1256.html), who are all set to pull the plug whether Xykon wins outright or the gate is destroyed in the process.

[brian 333]

Conflict WAS the greatest danger to the Gate in her view. Now, she knows it's the gods (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1256.html), who are all set to pull the plug whether Xykon wins outright or the gate is destroyed in the process.

Either way, her goal will be to keep both teams away from her gate, and teleporting traps appear to be a very convenient way to do that, if they can be reprogrammed to send them elsewhere.

[Psyren]

Either way, her goal will be to keep both teams away from her gate, and teleporting traps appear to be a very convenient way to do that, if they can be reprogrammed to send them elsewhere.

She won't keep the Order away (not actively, anyway) if it looks like Xykon is going to seize control of it uncontested, that's the point. Him doing so will mean the world's destruction just as surely as if they fought next to it and blew it up, and she knows that now.

[gbaji]

That would be what the backstage area is for, I think.

I don't think so. If it was, then no one would actually need to go through the trouble of exploring all the dungeons to get to the final one. Serini has specifically stated that backstage isn't the final dungeon. While she doesn't state this explicitly, it's reasonable to assume that you can't just get to the final dungeon by finding and traveling through backstage either. Otherwise, it would be too easy to bypass.

Backstage is just where all the swapovers are built, and where Sereni keeps an eye on things. It would defeat the purpose and design of the security of the gate if there was a shortcut there.


Why can't they accompany TE to the final dungeon? Durkon has a chance to maybe talk to Redcloak again.

If we are assuming that the whole "must explore every dungeon" is somehow tied to the swapovers (once you've explored every single one, you get transported to the final dungeon), then we kinda have to assume this only works for the people who have physically explored every single dungeon. The swapovers transport people. Why on earth make it so that once any person or group has explored every dungeon then anyone at all can now just walk to the final dungeon.

I'm not at all precluding the possiblity that once TE exploers all the dungeons, it just "unlocks" the final dungeon, and a new entrance appears or something that anyone and everone can walk through. It's possible. It does seem like poor design though. She presumambly made this gate to last a long time, presumably (hopefully) well after her death. Making it work this way would be like having a lock on a door that can only be locked once. Once it's unlocked it's now open for all.

Since the system already somehow has to track who actually explores every dungeon (presumably some magic "tag" or something that hits them maybe when they enter the final room of each dungeon?), and the system already has magic transporters that move people from the entrance hallways to the dungeons, then it makes the most sense to utilize the features already there and just have the swapovers themselves activate differently for anyone who is "tagged" with all of the dungeons (takes them to the final dungeon). But it has to also only work for those who have explored every dungeon. Which means that anyone walking with them will just get transported to the normal dungeon that swapover normally takes people to.

Alternatively, it could just be a timed thing. As long as anyone enters all of the dungeon final rooms within X time, the entrance to the final door opens up and stays open for Y time (a few hours? A day?). Then the whole thing resets. This method would allow for the Order to follow TE into the final dungeon, while still making it "work" as a viable long term defense. I suppose it could also open up an entrance to the final dungeon from the final room of the last dungeon they explore. Which could lead to TE entering the last one, then not coming right back out like the rest, and then the Order scrambling to follow them (and having to fight the monsters in that dungeon). There's a few ways to do this.

Um... My personal headcannon (total theory here, so put about a .1% chance of being right), is that something will happen, at the final gate, while TE is performing the ritual, and that'll lead us to more shenanegans, including some more info about the snarl, world within the snarl, etc (and perhaps/probably/certainly a whole "Belkar gets sucked into said snarl" bit). Given the time frame we've been told it takes to set up and perform the ritual, this sequence can't happen if the Order can just follow TE into the final dungeon immediately though (although there could be other things in the dungeon that change things a bit).

From a story point of view, this could require that the Order find their own way into the dungeon, and it take them a couple weeks to do so. Sereni would prefer this not happen, but I'm 99% certain that whatever final climatic conflict occurs, it will happen at the final gate, and said gate will open during said conflict. Broken clocks and all that... right? :smallwink:


What we do know is that one swapover is a two-way link from Monster Hollow to a dungeon in an unspecified other location, and that bypassing it using the method Haley employed allows access to the backstage area. Without bypassing it again, the swapover appears to grant visual and aural observation of the original entrance, but only grants access to the dead end of presumably the same backstage tunnel they occupy. In other words, from backstage it is not a portal or whatever, but only an observation port.

Use as is: Go from Monster Hollow to dungeon, or dungeon to Monster Hollow. View same.

Bypass with osquip method: Go from Monster Hollow to Backstage.

Use from Backstage: Go to Backstage tunnel dead end. View Monster Hollow entrance.

One minor correction (I think). There is no dead end tunnel at backstage. The "back" of the swapover goes to the tunnel entrance and to the door you came in from. I think that dead end section is just a dead end section connected to the actual dungeon. So the dungeon has a dead end hallway, the other side of which goes into where the monsters are. 10 feet in from that dead end, is where the swapover is.

Crappy ascii art to follow:

Back stage:

| _ _ __ ____
aX b
_ ________
|


"a" is the side where the door is. X is the swapover. "b" is the side where backstage is (with side tunnels that connect to other entrances, which I'm not going to draw out.

Dungeon:

_________
| cXd
|_________

"c" is the dead end. X is the swapover. "d" is the side that leads to the dungeon. (see how I made "b" the backstage, and "d" the dungeon. So clever. So totally accidental).

The swapovers just connect a<->d and c<->b.

So. Adventure enters the dungoen though a door from the hollow at "a". The swapover shows them a scene of "d". They walk through the swapover and travel to "d", never realizing they've been teleported. They look back though the swapver and see "a", just as they expect. They can travel back and forth as normal.

Disarming the swapover just means that the normal a<->b and c<->d connections exist. So if you disable while at "a", you then step through to "b" and are back stage. You walk back while it's disabled and you arrive at "a" again.

If you are at "b", and the swapover is active then you are transported to "c" (the dead end in the dungeon). Whiich is exactly what happened to Roy.

We can assume that if the swapover is disarmed while in the dungeon, you would transport back to "c" as well (cause that's what's physically there).

Note that what appears at first to be special srying magic, is merely the absense of the "you see through the swapover" on two sides. At "b", you see the actual entrance "a" at all times. Also, "c" seems to always see the dungeon, and not where it swaps you to either (see Darkwing behind Roy here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1223.html)). Darkwing is at "d". So the whole "shows you what's on the other side of the swapover" only occurs when viewing it from "a" or "d" (each seeing the other).

The dead end has to be part of the actual dungeon, because otherwise, where is it? We already know that "backstage" has two sides. The entrances from outside (through the doors) and the tunnels that connect all the entrances. There are no dead ends physically there. We can imagine there could be, but why? There are four sides to each swapover, so if we put the dead ends in backstage somewhere, then where is the actual physical other "side" of the tunnel that leads to each dungeon ("d")? Makes the most sense for it to actually physically be part of the actual original physical dungeon. Presumably, if one found themeslves at "c" (as Roy did), and disarmed the swapover and walked through, they'd find themselves at "d".

That's the simplest model for this. Two hallways. Two sides to each hallway. Four "ends" attached to each swapover.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think so. If it was, then no one would actually need to go through the trouble of exploring all the dungeons to get to the final one. Serini has specifically stated that backstage isn't the final dungeon. While she doesn't state this explicitly, it's reasonable to assume that you can't just get to the final dungeon by finding and traveling through backstage either. Otherwise, it would be too easy to bypass.

Backstage is just where all the swapovers are built, and where Sereni keeps an eye on things. It would defeat the purpose and design of the security of the gate if there was a shortcut there.

Serini needs a way to access the Gate, or at the very least to observe it from there, though.

[brian 333]

She won't keep the Order away (not actively, anyway) if it looks like Xykon is going to seize control of it uncontested, that's the point. Him doing so will mean the world's destruction just as surely as if they fought next to it and blew it up, and she knows that now.

She knows that's what they said. But why trust the people who blew up three of the four gates, (one of which was intact and not threatened at the time?


As for the swapovers, the dead end is simply the end of the tunnel leading from backstage. Disarming the portal didn't make it not work, it simply gave it another destination. Otherwise, the entrance from Monster Hollow, where Xykon stood while Roy was slashing, would have been what he saw when he poked his head through. I'm willing to bet that if the swap over from the Monster Hollow side had been dispelled or anti-magicked, it would have been a dead end as well.

This would have been the default action of any number of magic user characters with whom I've played. Certainly, Serini has thought of that.

[gbaji]

As for the swapovers, the dead end is simply the end of the tunnel leading from backstage. Disarming the portal didn't make it not work, it simply gave it another destination. Otherwise, the entrance from Monster Hollow, where Xykon stood while Roy was slashing, would have been what he saw when he poked his head through. I'm willing to bet that if the swap over from the Monster Hollow side had been dispelled or anti-magicked, it would have been a dead end as well.

Except that the swapover was active when roy slashed at Xykon, and when he poked his head through. So the swapover was transporting roy somewhere else, which lead to the dead end. Had the swapover been deactivated, he would have walked back into the entrance, just like they walked from the entrance to backstage when it was deactivated.

My model requires only two hallways, with a swapover in each one moving things crossing them to the other hallway. Your model requires... three hallways? And swapovers that have different states depending on which way you are going, and apparently an "armed", "disarmed" and "something else?". Are you suggesting a model like this:

Entrance from hollow:


|______
aXb |
________|
|



Entrance to backstage:


| |
| |
_____________| |
| cYd |
|____________ |
| |
| |



Dungeon:


______________
? eZf monsters?
______________


So in this model, there's three swapovers in each intersection? They enter at "a", hit "X" and are transported to "f", which leads to the dungeon. If X is disabled, it takes you to "d" instead, which leads to backstage. If you are at "d" (like the Order was), and enter "Y", while it's active, it takes you to "c"? But if you look back through it, you see "f"? Presumably, since there must be a way out of backstage, you deactivate "Y" to be transported to "a" (which makes it transport you when disabled, but not transport you when active, which seems backwards). Presumably as well, if you are at "f" (the dungeon), while active Z will take you back to "a". When disabled, it takes you to "e". Ok. What happens if you travel from e, and hit swapover Z? Does that take you to backstage as well (or that side just doesn't do anything)? Heck. What is at "e"? Is that an entrance from some other part of the world, where the monstes came from initially (totally possible btw)?

It's certainly possible that it's set up this way, and does allow for restocking of the monsters over time. If we assume that Z always takes e->f, but when active takes f->a (and deactive takes f->e?). X when active takes a->f, when deactive, takes a->d. How does one even get to "b"? We know that "c" takes you back to "d" when active, so is that reversed as well and takes you to "b" if deactivated"? And where does X take you when active from "b" (if you do find yourself there)? Maybe like Z and just always takes you back out to a?

Is it possible to go from a->f, turn around, deactivate Z, and then walk out to e, and out into some other part of the world somewhere? That would be interesting, at least.

This model basically requires that deactivating "X" doesn't really deactivate it at all, but merely changes where it goes. I guess I do like the structure because it allows for restocking. But it's not necessary to describe everything we've seen so far, and requies speculating that the "disarm" function works differently than one would assume. From a model perspective, it's interesting, but falls pretty squarely into Occam's Razor territory. It also creates an oddity that the illusion/view/whatever at a shows f. But the illusion at c *also* shows f. Presumably e shows f when looking in that direction as well. f sees a (we don't know what happens when it's deactivated). d also sees a, and appears to do so even when deactivated, so... no consistency or logic to the viewing stuff. At least not from a "how would you connect these with magic" kind of way.

It also somewhat assumes that "backstage" is not physically connected to the entrances, but it certainly could be, just looking here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1237.html). If the tunnels leading to backstage were all just empy dead ends that had swapovers taking them to the actual entrance tunnels in the hollow, why have them all lined up like that? A simpler model just has the entrance doors lead to tunnels that go directly to backstage. Then farther into the hollow, there are dungeons with no direct connection to anywhere. Just dead end tunnels that lead into a dungeon. The swapover takes you from the entrance to the dungeon and back to the entrance in the other direction. The same pair of swapovers take you from the dead end in the dungeon to backstage (and in reverse order, which is what Roy did). This requires just two tunnels, and just two swapovers per pair, and a very simple "swapover" when active, and "go to the tunnel that's physically there" when deactive.

Yeah. It doesn't explain where the monsters come from. Which is the only reason to add anything extra to the model. But the "dead end" need not have anything to do with it, nor do we need to assume a dead end at "c" above (or "b" for that matter). If we're adding in another swapover anyway, why not just assume a one way swapover placed somewhere in the world that leads into the dungeon somewhere else? And heck. If we're assuming swapovers that can go to two different places, depending on conditions, whe could even place it at the same "entrance to the dungeon" (Z above), and not bother with extra tunnel segments at all?

[brian 333]

That's a really complicated method there. Try this:

Tunnels from Monster Hollow are all dead ends.

Tunnels from Backstage are all dead ends.

Dungeon corridors lead from outside, (wherever they are,) to the monster lairs.

Portals from Monster Hollow have two states:
1) armed = leads to dungeon corridor.
2) disarmed = leads to backstage.

If their magic is broken or anti-magicked, they expose a dead end. Wizards cannot Dispell their way backstage.

Portals from Backstage have two states:
1) armed = allows viewing of the corridor to which they link. I presume being on the dead end side allows looking into the dungeon hallway.
2) disarmed = links to Monster Hollow entrance one way, or the linked dungeon the other way.

If dispelled it ceases to function, leaving the observer in a dead end tunnel.

The Dungeon portals have two functions, depending on the status of the observer:
1) tagged by the portal in Monster Hollow = allows viewing of and exit to the foyer of the doorway in Monster Hollow.
2) not tagged = allows normal use of the dungeon tunnel to enter and exit the tunnel.

This method requires a third portal for every pair, but it prevents wizards like V from simply dispelling the portal and discovering the backstage area.

You are free to prefer another method, at least until The Author says otherwise.

[gbaji]

That's a really complicated method there. Try this:

Tunnels from Monster Hollow are all dead ends.

Tunnels from Backstage are all dead ends.

Dungeon corridors lead from outside, (wherever they are,) to the monster lairs.

That's exactly what I drew up above (the second one, based on what you were saying). So I'm assuming those graphics are a correct representation of your model of the swapovers and the various tunnel layouts? Just want to make sure we're on the same page here.


Portals from Monster Hollow have two states:
1) armed = leads to dungeon corridor.
2) disarmed = leads to backstage.

If their magic is broken or anti-magicked, they expose a dead end. Wizards cannot Dispell their way backstage.

Ok. That makes sense.


Portals from Backstage have two states:
1) armed = allows viewing of the corridor to which they link. I presume being on the dead end side allows looking into the dungeon hallway.

Except we know from the comics that viewing from the backstage area always shows the Monster Hallow entrance. view from backstage to monster hallow tunnel while disarmed (panel 10) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html) and view from backstage to monster hallow while armed (panels... well just about all of them) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html)

And sure, we can assume the dead end side from the entrance views back to the "real" entrance (cause why put any sort of magic viewing bit there. But where this gets inconsisitent is the view back when Roy poked his head through into the dead end from backstage. He didn't see his group standing in backstage, like you would expect (no reason not to, right?). He instead saw a view of the dungeon we see Darkwing behind Roy, who went through the active swapover and is in the dungeon corridor (panel 18) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1223.html)

There's no reason to put magic on the dead end sides to create such viewing if it's actually some sort of magic intended to fool people. The only such places to do so are at "a" and "f", each showing a view of the other side of the swapover when active, so that someone who doesn't find the trap, doesn't even realize anything is up. Once someone has gotten to backstage, or the dead end (or either dead end in the "three hallways" model), there's no reason for the subterfuge. The views shown do make complete sense in the two hallway model, since from backstage you are actually looking down the normal natural corridor to the entrance, and from the dungeon dead end, you are actually just looking down the normal natural corridor to the dungeon. Only when either at the entrance, or the dungeon, do you see the location the swapover is taking you. Those are the "customer facing sides" so to speak.

Not saying that the three hallway model is wrong, but it is more complex, and has some inconsistencies.


2) disarmed = links to Monster Hollow entrance one way, or the linked dungeon the other way.

Sure. Or we eliminate the two additional dead ends, connect the entrance and backstage physically, and disarmed it just takes you where the hallway goes. Why would the dead end of backstage take you to the dungeon if disarmed? That seems... odd as well.


If dispelled it ceases to function, leaving the observer in a dead end tunnel.

Which, again, is one strong aspect in support of this. This is somewhat dependent on how powerful the transportation actually is though. But yeah. I actually like this model for this reason.


The Dungeon portals have two functions, depending on the status of the observer:
1) tagged by the portal in Monster Hollow = allows viewing of and exit to the foyer of the doorway in Monster Hollow.
2) not tagged = allows normal use of the dungeon tunnel to enter and exit the tunnel.

Ok. That works as well.


This method requires a third portal for every pair, but it prevents wizards like V from simply dispelling the portal and discovering the backstage area.

I'm not sure you can "simply dispell" an enchantment like this. I could see an AMF maybe preventing it from operating though. But you are correct. Having an additional gap between the entrance tunnel and backstage does make it harder for someone to just bully their way through. Then again, I suspect that rogues capable of spotting the trap and disarming it are probably more common than spellcasters who can disable it in some manner. I mean, we have an epic level lich and a high level (17th I think?) cleric, and neither of them seem to have even noticed that they were transported, despite presumably having things like true sight and whatnot running the whole time (and having other magic resistances as well). Whatever magical methodology these swapovers use, it doesn't seem to be easily thwarted or even detected by most other forms of magical spells.


You are free to prefer another method, at least until The Author says otherwise.

Both models "work". And the three hallway model actually has a couple additional features that are useful (blocking direct passage in the case of swapover failure, and automatic re-stocking of the dungeons). The two hallway model is the "occam's razor preferred" one though, since it explains everything we've seen (so far) with the least complexity. Until we see someone use AMF (or similar) and find themselves in a dead end (either entering through the hallow entrance, or heading back from backstage), or we see a monster wander in from the "outside" side of the dungeon hallway, we have no reason to assume additional complexity in the model exists.

But yeah. It's a perfectly valid speculation as to the actual layout.

[brian 333]

I suppose I misread your diagrams. My apologies. We mostly agree, but explain things using different language.

A quibble:
The backstage swapover appears to not portal Roy. But from one side he sees Xykon, and from the other he sees Darkwing. This implies, to me, that it's purpose is to allow Backstage occupants to view the tunnels in both directions, both into the dungeons and into the foyers of Monster Hollow. Its secondary purpose may be to access either direction from backstage when disarmed. Otherwise, it simply lets people walk past it as if it was not there.

[gbaji]

I suppose I misread your diagrams. My apologies. We mostly agree, but explain things using different language.

Hah.. Communication? What's that? :smalltongue:


A quibble:
The backstage swapover appears to not portal Roy. But from one side he sees Xykon, and from the other he sees Darkwing. This implies, to me, that it's purpose is to allow Backstage occupants to view the tunnels in both directions, both into the dungeons and into the foyers of Monster Hollow. Its secondary purpose may be to access either direction from backstage when disarmed. Otherwise, it simply lets people walk past it as if it was not there.

Yeah. That occurred to me right after I posted. It does make sense that there's an additioinal view-magic thing going on there as well. This allows for folks in backstage to spy on people entering the dungone (backstage side shows a view of the hollow entrance tunnel), and to spy on people in the dungeon itself (backstage dead end side shows a view of the dungeon).

The three hallway model does require a lot more complexity. We have to assume that "disarming" the trap does different things in different situations, and that the default state of each swapover acts differently as well. There's also still some odd inconsitencies with the view-magic stuff as well. Also by adding an additional swapover in there, you now have six sides to consider, and the view-magic has to be applied differently. The swapovers are less "things that swap you over" (literally connect two sides of two different halways togther when armed, and don't when disarmed) than a series of portals, with different "sides" of the portal doing different things depending on a variety of conditions.

Totally possible. And absolutely allows us to infer solutions to potential problems we haven't seen yet (what happens if someone hits the swapover with an AMF, and how do the dungeons restock?). But yeah. We have no direct observations that require that additional complexity to "work". Still... I put that very high on the "possible ways this could actually be laid out".

It is, at least, almost certainly one of those two models.

[brian 333]

One other detail: the monsters in the dungeons do not appear to be exiting into Monster Hollow and exploring the other nearby dungeons. If there was not a mechanism that prevented them from doing so, I would imagine Monster Hollow would long since have become a battlefield piled high with corpses or a bazaar filled with merchants from every dungeon, or both.

[gbaji]

One other detail: the monsters in the dungeons do not appear to be exiting into Monster Hollow and exploring the other nearby dungeons. If there was not a mechanism that prevented them from doing so, I would imagine Monster Hollow would long since have become a battlefield piled high with corpses or a bazaar filled with merchants from every dungeon, or both.

Sure. But if we're already assuming some sort of "the swapover in the dungeon only transports you back to the entrance if you have previously transported from the entrance to the dungeon", then that rule doesn't say anything about whether backstage is physically connected to the hallow entrances or there's a swapover between them as well.

We could just as easily assume a third swapover (technically, a second "pair" of swapovers), but not "sharing space/duty" with the same one that takes you back to the hallow entrance, but located elsewhere in each dungeon, that merely "swaps over" to some other location where the monsters come from, and assume this sort of tagging is being used on both. This allows each dungeon to be stocked, prevents people exploring the dungeons from the hallow to find exits to other parts of the world, and prevents monsters who enter the dungeons through those swapovers from other parts of the world from wandering out into the hallow (Anyone who uses a swapover to get to a dungeon can travel back through the one they entered, but not the one they didn't, thus solving the problem).

This model also perserves the concept of "swapovers" actually just "swaping over", as opposed to "teleport people to different locations based on whether you've triggered or disarmed something else". It also preserves the idea of magical devices that perform their one fundction when "active/functioning", and *nothing* when disactivated/disarmed. Your model requires a very odd condition on the backstage side of the first swapover in which the default condition is to *not* transport people, but transports them back to the hallow entrance when "disarmed". My model has all swapovers transporting you to and from a single specific location when "armed", and simply doing nothing (allow you to walk through the tunnel normally) when "disarmed". And yeah. You can disarm one using AMF, or a rogue skill. No difference.

We have no solid evidence either way. By yeah... Occam's Razor. One model is vastly simpler and more consistent than the other.