Help with Druid multiclass

[Swooshfinn]

I am the most recent addition to the campaign, a homebrew, in which I play a Kalashtar Circle of the Stars druid. We are currently at level four. Our group consists of two experienced players, myself and a Druegar Forge Domain cleric, and three newer players, one is a Loxodon Totem Spirit Barbarian, another is a Changling College of Whispers Bard, and finally a Sea-Elf Storm Sorceress that is leaning towards a melee build.

Last session the other experienced player and myself felt the pressure of not having a sneaky/stealthy archetype character and I mentioned that I would be willing to multiclass. I also inherited a black guard drake in a recent session, which might impact my decision.

Initially during the session, I was brainstorming what would work thematically with my current build, and I was thinking Soul Knife Rogue, building a stronger psionic character. But I am not sold on that, so looking over other archetypes available, I am also interested in Scout Rogue, Thief Rogue, Drake Warden Ranger, and Gloomstalker Ranger.

Out of these options, I seem to be getting the most synergy ideas for the Soul Knife, Scout, and the Gloomstalker. I was liking the idea of being a “dragon master”, but talking with my DM, she would fuse the summoned drake from the Drake Warden into my inherited guard drake, kind of nerfing the idea, and making sure that I only have one dragon instead of two.

As the druid, I am focusing on battlefield control with spells like moonbeam, thorn whip, gust, and entangle with healing word and good berry as support.

This is making me think Scout or Gloomstalker might make good choices. But not sure my current DEX is 13, the rest of my stats are: STR 10, CON 15, INT 12, WIS 17, and CHA 9.

Open to your analysis, feedback, suggestions, and criticisms. Thank you in advance.

[animorte]

Stars is hands down my favorite Druid! How deep are you willing to multi-class (aka how many levels are you ok with stepping back from Druid)?

So, you're looking for stealthy shenanigans, eh? Of course, I don't think any Ranger is a bad way to go.

If you don't wish to invest too much, you could instead consider just one level for Trickery Cleric making any individual the scout. (Invoke Duplicity is also sweet, but not necessary for stealth.)

Also, three levels to arrive at Shadow Monk might not be a bad idea, as you also acquire some pretty sweet base Monk goodies along the way.

[sambojin]

Druids are by and large stealthy characters anyway, with a minimum of effort, so just take another level of druid. The extra spell slots and prep will cover your needs in that area.

Stuff like Giant Wolf Spider, Panther, Jaculi, Male Steeder, or even just a rat or a cat wildshape form will let you stealth easily enough, no matter your stats. And you've probably seen a big hunting cat as a druid at some point, it doesn't need to have specifically been a Panther. Even stuff like Warhorse has its uses, when moving around rather than stealthing on by is just as good. With Pass without Trace they are even better, and make the whole party pretty good at stealth too.

Sure, it might take a wildshape charge or a lvl2 spell slot, but how many times per long rest does it really come up? You can even merge stuff into your wildshapes if item sneakyness is needed, and can still talk in wildshape with telepathy as a Kalashtar. Every druid has access to reasonable stealth with wildshape, and sometimes superb stealth, depending on your spell preps for the day.

I dont think there's any dip that would give you the +7 +10 to stealth that Giant Wolf Spider and PwT already gives you for an hour at a time, and more druid is good druid.

(Even stuff like wildshape find familiar, Enlarge/Reduce to go small/ tiny (or embiggen for fun), Enhance Ability (Cat's Grace), or Summon Beast fit in fine on your prepared spell list on any given day for stealthing/ scouting/ stealing, and have a tonne of other uses as well. You can even write them off as psionic powers and micro dragon summoning if you want. You really do "have a spell for that", or should, because they're all good spells, and there's plenty of them available. At lvl5 you can even try and conjure in a stealth posse of beasts, or at worst summon in a teleporting Fey spirit to do your bidding. Its pretty hard for a DM to say no to all of it, even if they say no to some of it. I mean, cast Longstrider and Jump on yourself at some point, and wildshape into a Warhorse for a good laugh some time. Druids don't just have options, they have shenanigans)

((Yes, the stealth character was you, all along.

Stealth isn't invisibilty, but not many characters can get 40+' speed, spiderclimb (or a climb speed), and +16-17 for stealth checks (or +6-7 with advantage to all Dex checks) as easily as the average druid can. Or get a summon or familiar to do it for them))

[Sherlockpwns]

I have to agree here. Being a rogue doesn’t make you stealthy-type. Is it stealth needed or is it also thieves tools you are lacking?

Pass without trace is such a huge stealth boost you already have. No multiclass will change that.

Now if you need to pick up proficiencies; then there is some reason. Rogue and artificer get you the tool proficiency. Neither are particularly exciting for a level 4 Druid. Doubt I’d take more than 1 level.

I think I could build a multiclass stars druid, but I’m not sure I could convert an existing one to be a rogue archetype that would benefit from it.

[elyktsorb]

Last session the other experienced player and myself felt the pressure of not having a sneaky/stealthy archetype character and I mentioned that I would be willing to multiclass. I also inherited a black guard drake in a recent session, which might impact my decision.

Initially during the session, I was brainstorming what would work thematically with my current build, and I was thinking Soul Knife Rogue, building a stronger psionic character. But I am not sold on that, so looking over other archetypes available, I am also interested in Scout Rogue, Thief Rogue, Drake Warden Ranger, and Gloomstalker Ranger.

This is making me think Scout or Gloomstalker might make good choices. But not sure my current DEX is 13, the rest of my stats are: STR 10, CON 15, INT 12, WIS 17, and CHA 9.

Open to your analysis, feedback, suggestions, and criticisms. Thank you in advance.

So, I've played a Rogue/Druid before (a few in fact) and just taking a single level of Rogue and putting your expertise into Stealth is going to be more than enough to make you the stealthiest when combined with Pass Without Trace and Wildshape options.

If you really want to go for a subclass (or 4 levels for the ability score) it really depends on what role you fill in the group.

I love Scout Rogue, thematically, technically, it's very boring and underwhelming. Survival is a useful skill to have (or have expertise in) but Nature is the most worthless skill in the game imo. I find Skirmisher is a good feature for long range people, who if they get rushed suddenly can step back, this could work well if you primarily cast concentration spells as a Druid, which would help you avoid being hit from melee attacks. It is also a decent choice as it doesn't add onto your bonus action load for the most part.

I am a firm advocate for the Thief in any situation, but it's usefulness will directly correlate to how often you'll use your bonus action for mundane items, or sleight of hand. If you think you can find something interesting to do in your role with that, then go for it.

Drakewarden will eat up your bonus action since your Drake has to be commanded with the bonus action, otherwise it can only dodge on its turn.

Though just the level 1 rogue chassis will serve you well, I recall a time I cast Heat Metal on a vampire's armor (they had armor on) and then just continually avoided being hit by being able to disengage as a bonus action and dash away in the same turn, while the vampire had to keep trying to get to me by either risking the opportunity attacks from my allies and dashing over to be able to hit me on their next turn, or taking the disengage and then trying to position themselves to where they could move to attack me on their next turn, all while having disadvantage on attacks on top of it. Suffice to say, they were unable to get me to drop the spell. (For reference I was a Moon Druid/Assassin Rogue with a pretty even level split in that game)

A single Rogue dip is exceptionally worth it, 2 expertise, and Cunning Action alone is worth it for the utility you get, expertise for certain skills, and Cunning Action is very good for positioning yourself on the field, or getting out of bad situations with minimal risk.

[sambojin]

Yeah. But if I was going to expertise anything, it'd be Athletics. Extreme grapple Defense is never bad, alongside wildshape free Str and movement. Rogue isn't a terrible dip, but Stars Druids do have things to do with their bonus action (Archer attacks mostly, but as I've pointed out, not always the best use of a wildshape charge).

A lot of people play druids like they would a wizard, but they only have concentration spells. And only choose the basic lockdown/ combat buffs. Yet they forget they can pick any of the spells, within limits.

At lower levels, wizards have nothing on the flexibility of a Druid's daily spell loadout or buffing potential for a party. And this is exactly the time where roles and rolls and basic abilities matter a lot.

Then they have all the other things wildshape can do as well, alongside that.

The spells listed in my above post are handy to have prepared, about 1-2 of them on any given day, no matter your flavour of druid by lvl3+. And in the particular of a Stars Druid, no-one really minds if you just sit back and Guiding Bolt or cantrip for 1-2 turns in a big battle. Because it lets you do so much more at any other point with your spells and wildshape, leading up to it, or afterwards. Druids contribute in so many ways other than tools/ skills/ damage/ lockdown, that the fact that they get a few of them successfully used every day as well, seems ridiculous. Or that they can turn other characters into broken-feeling characters alongside them with the right spells too.

I mean, I love proficiencies and tools. But as a druid you can sometimes say "don't need them, I'll think my way around this problem with all the options I have", or you can just go "you do that, I'll make you *way* better at it". This even goes for combat and lockdown and stuff, but they're more of a somewhat self-contained force multiplier than anything. And a somewhat brokenly powerful one from lvl2-13 one at that.

[Swooshfinn]

I think I worded it wrong initially, the other experienced player and I were looking for the skills and thieves’ tools proficiency. My first time using the wild shape with this character I used the Constellation wild shape, but the second instance I became a baboon to go ahead of the party and open unlocked doors in the same dungeon.

Maybe taking EXPERTISE as my next feat is a better option overall?

[sambojin]

Nah. Go a level of Rogue in that case. Have fun 😊

(Then straight back to Stars Druid for the rest of it.

I'd honestly just hold off until lvl5 Stars, and spell buff whoever has the highest untrained stat in "whatever comes up, use a twig or a sledgehammer or whatever if you need to". Then take rogue1. You'll love the extra 2x lvl3 spell slots and +1 spell prep from Stars5, more than you'll enjoy the Rogue stuff. But after that, if it's still a problem, sure. Go Stars5/ Rogue1. Although, at Stars6, you do get Omen, which can +/-d6 some *very* important rolls on a reaction, three times a day (PB worth), and gives you an extra spell prep and a lvl3 slot too, so you do you. But lvl5 Stars Druid is *so f'ing good* compared to lvl4, that I wouldn't take that Rogue level. Level 6 Stars is pretty spectacular too. Not to mention lvl7....

Seems like it's the Forge Cleric's problem. He can magic up either normal objects/ tools or maybe +1 tools, ordained by his god, in theory. He probably should learn how to use them. You can buff him so it looks like he knows what he's doing.

Between Guidance from him/her, and Enhance Ability from you, it should be a shoe-in. Make for an interesting dynamic as well, psionic/nature and divine/forge, but being able to harness all that you both are together, for the party and the outcome of the adventure. Even with a couple of mini-dragons looking on and smirking all lizard'y and wise. I mean, the sea-elf sorcerer *has* to have ok Dex, don't they?)

[elyktsorb]

Maybe taking EXPERTISE as my next feat is a better option overall?

If you're just after Expertise with Thieves Tools, then there isn't actually a feat that can help you. There is no feat that gives expertise with a tool. Prodigy and Skill Expert only work for skills and not tools (it's probably something your DM would allow, but I don't know how much of a stickler your DM is)

Rogue's Expertise feature specifically allows them to get Expertise on Thieves Tools (The Bard's for example, does not let you put Expertise on Thieves Tools) and Artificers get on all Tools at level 6.

Ultimately a single level of Rogue is way more valuable than taking Prodigy or Skill Expert for Thieves Tools (if your DM allows it) as a feat

[Mastikator]

A single level of rogue will get you thief's tools proficiency and expertise, you can pick thief's tools expertise tool. Otherwise for stealth you can just cast Pass Without Trace and then wildshape into a panther for a sum of +16 to stealth checks, which is kinda insane.

Edit- the feat Artificer Initiate also gives you proficiency in one tool, which could be thief's tools. Also a 1st level spell and a cantrip from the artificer spell list.

Skill Expert doesn't let you pick a tool to gain proficiency, but if you're human you can pick Progeny which would let you get thief's tools.

If you're going rogue (which is a fine option) then you can also pick expert perception, which should jive really well with your high druid wisdom. I wouldn't actually take stealth at all as a druid, since you already have pass without trace as an option.

[elyktsorb]

Skill Expert doesn't let you pick a tool to gain proficiency, but if you're human you can pick Progeny which would let you get thief's tools.

Prodigy allows you to pick a Skill Proficiency and give it expertise after you get a skill and tool proficiency, and a language fluency. It does not allow you to select a tool to gain expertise. There is no feat that gives tool expertise.

[Mastikator]

Prodigy allows you to pick a Skill Proficiency and give it expertise after you get a skill and tool proficiency, and a language fluency. It does not allow you to select a tool to gain expertise. There is no feat that gives tool expertise.

That's a good point. A 1 level dip into rogue is probably best then.

[sambojin]

Nope. Lvl5 druid for the level-up, and ask your forge cleric to make a set of thieves tools on a short rest for the party.
That's probably the best.

If it's still a problem for your party, grab a lvl of Rogue after then. Lvl5 is a big-good thing for full casters. Don't waste that, if you're already at lvl4 Stars Druid.

Lvl5 Stars Druid, then vaguely consider Stars5/Rogue1 at next level. If that's still a thing that is bothering your party. It probably won't be.

(I am just trying to give "good advice" here. It's not bad advice)

[RogueJK]

You definitely don't want to water down your Druid levels with more than 1 or 2 other class levels, since you want to keep your spellcasting moving ever upward. And regardless, you definitely won't want to multiclass for a level or two until after Druid 5, and Level 3 spells are a huge jump in power.

Therefore, I'd recommend one of three options:

1) After you hit Druid 5, take 1 level of Rogue (provided you have at least a 13 DEX, otherwise this isn't an option), then back to Druid full time. This will let you pick up a skill proficiency, Thieves Tools proficiency, and Expertise in two skills (or one skill and Thieves Tools). But you'll be a level behind in spellcasting, and you won't be able to capitalize on the +1d6 Sneak Attack damage very often.

2) Don't multiclass, continuing with just Druid levels, and just take the Skill Expert feat as your Level 8 ASI. This would allow you to round your 17 WIS up to 18, plus give you a skill proficiency and Expertise in one skill. The downside is still no Thieves Tools proficiency.

3) After you hit Druid 5, take 2 levels of Knowledge Cleric, then back to Druid full time. This gets you some additional WIS-based Cleric cantrips and access to 1st level Cleric spells, along with Proficiency and Expertise in two Knowledge skills, plus lets you use your Channel Divinity to gain proficiency with any skill or tool for 10 minutes per Short Rest. This can be used to become proficient with Thieves Tools as needed for several minutes throughout the day, and if that's not needed during that period, you can burn the Channel Divinity before a Short Rest to regain a spell slot using Harness Divine Power. This also keeps your spell slots scaling, so while you'll be 2 levels behind in Druid spells known, you'll still be on track with upper level spells lots for upcasting the spells you do have. (And lots of your spells upcast well to take advantage of these extra upper level slots, like Summon Beast, Summon Fey, Conjure Animals, Command, Moonbeam, Call Lightning, Guiding Bolt, and your various healing spells.)


Personally, I'd lean towards #2 or #3. As noted, Stealth skill proficiency isn't necessarily required for you to be stealthy, since as a Druid you have access to both Pass Without Trace for +10, as well as numerous Wild Shape forms with high Stealth bonuses. And you can ask your DM about you or another party member using downtime training to gain Thieves Tool proficiency.


Prodigy allows you to pick a Skill Proficiency and give it expertise after you get a skill and tool proficiency, and a language fluency. It does not allow you to select a tool to gain expertise. There is no feat that gives tool expertise.

Prodigy requires you to be a Half-Elf, Half-Orc or Human, and the OP's character's race is Kalashtar. Plus, Prodigy doesn't give any Expertise, just proficiency in a skill, a tool, and a language. You might be thinking of Skill Expert, which doesn't have a racial requirement, but doesn't give any tool proficiency, just a skill proficiency and a skill expertise.


ask your forge cleric to make a set of thieves tools on a short rest for the party

The issue isn't that they can't get a set of Thieves Tools... The issue appears to be that nobody is proficient with Thieves Tools.

[Gignere]

The issue isn't that they can't get a set of Thieves Tools... The issue appears to be that nobody is proficient with Thieves Tools.

OP should probably just ask the DM to allow the optional rule of downtime training to gain proficiency in tools.

[sambojin]

And then, as mentioned, when it comes up again, spell buff the *stuff* out of that.

Gotta forge cleric? Gotta stars druid? I reckon they can concentrate momentarily on the task at hand, if needed.

Seems to be a non-problem. Or if it is, grab a level of Rogue, *after* level 5 as a full list, full caster. Especially as a druid.

If you've got thieves tools, you've got a druid, and you've got a cleric, it sort of becomes stat independent. There might be someone better than you with them, but a D20+d4+1or2 with advantage works a fair bit of the time on DC15'ish locks.

Untrained? No worries. Advantage and disadvantage cancel out. So D20+d4Guidance+stats it is. Seems like a non-problem.

(How high DC locks are we talking here? And are they show-stoppers, or "just maybe more loot?". Because a barbarian can break through a locked door, or smash open a locked chest, raging or not. Maybe your DM *wants* you to engage with a Rouge'ish element in the adventure, and you're missing the point)

[elyktsorb]

Prodigy requires you to be a Half-Elf, Half-Orc or Human, and the OP's character's race is Kalashtar. Plus, Prodigy doesn't give any Expertise, just proficiency in a skill, a tool, and a language. You might be thinking of Skill Expert, which doesn't have a racial requirement, but doesn't give any tool proficiency, just a skill proficiency and a skill expertise.


I only initially cited it to correct the other user and I'm just going to post the entirety of Prodigy so people can stop quoting me wrong info about it.

Prodigy
XGE p75
Prerequisite: Half-Elf, half-orc, or human
You have a knack for learning new things. You gain the following benefits:
- You gain one skill proficiency of your choice, one tool proficiency of your choice, and fluency in one language of your choice.

- Choose one skill in which you have proficiency. You gain expertise with that skill, which means your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with it. The skill you choose must be one that isn't already benefiting from a feature, such as Expertise, that doubles your proficiency bonus.


As for everyone saying 'Don't delay Druid 5th lvl' as someone who has played a 5th level druid, the spells you get at 5th level as a druid aren't the end all be all of spells unless your big on summoning things, and given the playstyle you mentioned, delaying 5th level won't be a big deal.

[Sorinth]

Since your focus is on battlefield control spells then I would probably go Rogue over Ranger. Being able to BA hide/disengage can really help you maintain concentration on those spells. Also attacking while hidden helps you land those extra Guiding Bolts.

But if your go to Starry Form is Archer then Cunning Action is a lot less useful.