The fiends endgame

[AeonQuasar]

So the comic is nearing its conclusion now. I guess only a few years left at this pace. (no complain intended)

The question I have been thinking of a little while now are that we do know most of the peoples intention with the gates. The good gods want to seal it away, Redcloak want to teleport the Snarl, Xycon want it as pressure tool etc.

But the fiends we know little of what they want to do with it beside they want it to blow it up as they where hoping for Hel doing their job for them. But that doesn't make a lot of sense, now does it? Why would they destroy it as they are not gods? Not directly at least. Where are their benefit? But then there was this talk about the relic they have that they do not know works or not.

I think the relic they want to use either keeps the souls from being transfered making it impossible to blow up the planet OR makes the transfer of souls to them instead of the gods somehow.

They are playing the ultimate high risk high reward part. They do seem to be under command of some of the dark gods, considering they had to be yelled at from Tiamat from being (in)directly responsible for blowing up quite a few dragons. But they also seem to specify that even they are evil they are not on the evil side. Makes it very possible for them to have their own agenda.

Since we also don't know about their plans yet, but we mostly get the idea of the rest I find it plausible (based on the tumb rule of storytelling) that this is the most likely scenario to happen. The gate somehow gets blown up and the gods start the process of destroying the planet, but then the relic kicks in and we get a confrontation between Oots universe vs the Snarl/Fiends. The real endgame boss.

[Peelee]

I think the relic they want to use either [B]keeps the souls from being transfered making it impossible to blow up the planet

Why would that make it impossible to destroy the planet?

[Precure]

I think they want to destroy upper planes and good gods.

[Fyraltari]

They do seem to be under command of some of the dark gods, considering they had to be yelled at from Tiamat from being (in)directly responsible for blowing up quite a few dragons.
Tiamat having Lee's phone number is no indication they work for her. I'd say that them appeasing her by promising to kill a lot of good dragons is indication that she doesn't know exactly what they're up to.

But they also seem to specify that even they are evil they are not on the evil side. Makes it very possible for them to have their own agenda.
Specifically they mock the notion that there is an "evil side" to begin with. D&D characterizes evil as priorizing one's own goals and gratification over the suffering of other. That doesn't exactly lead to cooperation or fostering a team spirit.


we get a confrontation between Oots universe vs the Snarl/Fiends. The real endgame boss.

I'll bet anything unsubstantial you want that the "real endgame boss" is going to be none other than Xykon.

[brian 333]

I think they want to destroy upper planes and good gods.

That's a good end game if you don't want a new world afterward.

[fergo]

That's a good end game if you don't want a new world afterward.

Some random ill-informed rambling below, based on no D&D theological knowledge and my own, possibly mistaken, understanding of how things work in the OotS-verse.

Do we know exactly how these evil, demony, hell-planes work, exactly? Are they tied to this world, or like the gods do they sort of transfer between them?

I definitely got the idea that the afterlives and maybe the other outer planes were, like the gods, eternal, but I don't know if this was established as a fact or is just what some characters believed/were told. All this talk of gods needing souls to survive into the next world gives me the impression that the afterlives don't continue, at least not in the same way they exist presently.

If the end of the world would mean the end of their plane(s), or even some big drastic change to it--something which might suit the evil gods, but not the devils/demons/whatever--could their objective be to indefinitely delay the end of the world as long as possible, but perhaps in some way which favours them? This wouldn't be quite the same end-goal as Xykon or the Order--it might be a sort of mirror version of Hel's plan. But they'd be strangely united in wanting to make sure the world was saved!

But then... they seem to want the gates to be destroyed--at least, they prevented V from stopping the Order destroying the last one. Hm. But as far as I remember, they didn't intervene in the Hel kerfuffle at all, which they could have done if their plans included the world being destroyed.

Sorry if I'm mistaken in my basic premises or just repeating what everyone is already thinking.

[Tzardok]

The Outer Planes and the outsiders remain untouched by the Snarl. In #274 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) the gods are mentioned as hiding in their homes on the Outer Planes, and in #1147 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html) Thor claims that they erase the outsiders' memories of the destroyed worlds because they become "weird" otherwise.
Finally, I don't see why "the gods need souls" makes the afterlifes not continuing.

[Wintermoot]

My guess, when we get to the explanation of the IFCC endgame is that they have some mechanism/process in plan so that WHEN the gates are undone and the universe resets, they will absorb the energy output and become the new pantheon of gods themselves (the three of them, Lee, Nero and the other one) I think it's a ploy for personal power.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm pretty sure the IFCC lacks some critical piece of information about something that means their plan, whatever it is, isn't going to work. For one thing, they almost definitely don't know that there have been myriads of worlds, or that all the outsiders get their memories erased whenever a new world is made. That alone would mean any plan involving arranging the world to be destroyed wouldn't work out the way they want.

[KorvinStarmast]

(the three of them, Lee, Nero and the other one) I think it's a ploy for personal power.Cedric.....

[brian 333]

The Outer Planes and the outsiders remain untouched by the Snarl. In #274 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) the gods are mentioned as hiding in their homes on the Outer Planes, and in #1147 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html) Thor claims that they erase the outsiders' memories of the destroyed worlds because they become "weird" otherwise.
Finally, I don't see why "the gods need souls" makes the afterlifes not continuing.

If The Snarl is unleashed on the Astral Plane, will it stop at killing one pantheon? One Outer Plane? Why would it not destroy them all?

[Tzardok]

I do not get your question. Is it meant to be a hypothetical, or is it "why didn't it happen"?

[AvatarVecna]

Why would that make it impossible to destroy the planet?

Maybe impossible isn't the right word. Like really it's a question of if the gods with their current throng of dead worshippers have enough energy to survive until they gain new worshippers in the next world. If it's not enough to survive, they need the fuel of incoming dead mortals to sustain themselves long enough to remake the world and seed it with sycophants; this is exactly the thing Thor was worried about for The Dark One, and that was when countless dead goblins who followed him as a general and/or deity were already under his sway, with a full-blown goblin nation following his high priest's every word. If Thor doesn't get the current Thor worshippers cuz the fiends stole their souls, Thor would be dependent on the currently-dead worshipper energy. Is that enough to survive? It's kind of unclear.

I don't think this is the fiend's goal though, because it requires them to be at least a little bit aware that the world's keep getting rebooted, but not why - otherwise they couldn't really afford to play chicken with the oblivion of everything. If the gods could've fixed it by now, they would have, so even if this move would trap them on a dying rock, it would just be a "taking you with me" thing. There's no long-term profit in that for them. The only scenario where they're planning to steal all the souls is one where they know that means the gods wont risk destroying the world, but if the gods were even considering it, the world is like 5 minutes from destruction anyway.

[brian 333]

I do not get your question. Is it meant to be a hypothetical, or is it "why didn't it happen"?

I was pointing out that the Archfiends' plan cannot be to allow The Snarl to discover the outer planes. Once it becomes aware of the Astral Plane, all of the gods are in danger. And once The Snarl has eaten them, who will make the next world? Without a next world, where will the conflict the IFCC craves come from?

[gbaji]

Hard to say what the IFCC's plans are. Here's what we know though:

1. They clearly wanted the fourth gate to be destroyed (used one of their time periods with V to ensure it).

2. They also seem to have wanted Hel's plan to succeed. Not necessarily because they cared about Hel's plan, but because the gods would destroy the world (doing their work for them).

3. They have an artifact, that they're not sure will operate. Sabine is acquiring a vessel for them as well (whatever that actually is). Presumably these must both fit into their plans.

It's so far unclear how the gates fit in, or if they do at all. It's possible that "1" above was merely because they needed that to happen to force the gods to try to destroy the world. One can assume that if "destroy the world" is some automatic response from the gods if the 5th gate is destroyed and the snarl starts to break loose (implied strongly at the godsmoot), then we can expect that they will want to cause this to happen as well. So we should maybe be looking out for them interferring with Team Evil's plan to make sure the gate is destroyed and the gods destroy the world. It's unclear if TE succeeding will cause this. I'm also kinda on the side of "the IFCC doesn't actually want the snarl released to the outer planes" position.

"2" is the only thing we have a clear position on (in terms of "goals"). They seem to actually want the gods to destroy the world. So whatever plan they have requires this. But that's strange because we know that when the gods do this, they wipe the memories of the outsiders (which is what the IFCC are), so that would seem counterproductive for them to try to do. So my speculation is that some aspect of the artifact and vessel act in some manner to preserve their memories at the very least. Otherwise, there's nothing for them to gain here.

I don't think that can be the entire plan though, otherwise why bother trying to get the gods to destroy the world? If they have some means to avoid the memory wipe, they can just sit on that, and when the world is eventually destroyed, just use it then. No rush at all for immortal beings here. I suppose it's possible that they might merely be acting to prevent the risk that the gates present to themselves (and everyone else) by merely existing, and are rushing to get this world destroyed to bypass it. Maybe. Seems a bit weak though, and not nearly nefarious enough.

I suppose there could be some element to "siphoning" something as part of the worlds destruction though, so the OP may not be terribly far off. The one thing we do know happens when the world is destroyed is that everone in it dies and then goes off to their respective outer planes and afterlife. So yeah, something that interferes with that, or gains something for them via that process does seem like a reasonable guess. What's interesting is that what happens to souls when they die appears to be something that's pretty firm, but not unchangeable. Hel's bet shows us this. If souls always just went to the outer plans based on alignment or deity worship, then that bet could not have happened. The gods clearly have the ability to alter the "rules" about where souls go, so that shows said rules can be changed and aren't some unalterable feature of the universe or something. So yeah. Possible, I suppose. That would have to be one heck of an artifact though.

Another possiblity is that when the world is being destroyed, it presumably frees up the very threads of creation (of the prime material plane anyway). So some sort of method to tap into that for their own use might be their goal as well. Here's the thing though, anything they do would be a *huge* gambit. Presumably, the gods wont miss someting on that scale being messed with, so whatever they gain from this has to be great enough to propel themselves in terms of power such that they don't have to worry about the gods punishing them, or wiping them, or otherwise stopping them. Again, that's something pretty darn serious in terms of power level.


And honestly? While I'm sure the plan will come into play, at the end of the day, if the Order succeeds, the IFCC will fail. If we assume that "success" for the Order means that this world is not destroyed, and the gates are restored and/or the rifts sealed, and even (and much worse for the IFCC) the threat of the snarl is eliminated forever (so no more worlds being destroyed over and over), then the IFCC, assuming their plan requires "gods destroy the world" to succeed, are surely boned.

[Psyren]

The number one thing we can expect them to want, is to not be wiped again like the last bajillion iterations. (They may not know it's that many - they may not even know it's more than one, like we didn't know prior to #1139 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html) - but they will definitely have concluded by now that they were wiped at least once, since they'll have no memory of the previous world despite not being mortals.)



I'll bet anything unsubstantial you want that the "real endgame boss" is going to be none other than Xykon.

I honestly don't think so, because ending Xykon doesn't resolve any of the major narrative questions (e.g. fate of the goblins, fate of the Dark One, fate of the world inside the rift etc.) It will be a major climax for sure, just not THE major climax, imo anyway.

The only way I see that changing is if Xykon gets a huge powerup of some kind, e.g. one that makes him a champion or pawn or avatar of one of the more cosmic factions.

[KorvinStarmast]

The only way I see that changing is if Xykon gets a huge powerup of some kind, e.g. one that makes him a champion or pawn or avatar of one of the more cosmic factions.As a practical and tactical matter, the removal of V during a battle between the Order and Team Evil (which I expect to happen as one of the two V "time outs" that the fiends can opt for) acts as a power buff to Redcloak and Xykon bothbecause it removes from the field a very high level arcane caster. The debuff of the Order, in that sense, acts as a buff for Team Evil.
\
And that is when I expect MitD to level the playing field. Why?

Because his friend O-Chul will be battling alongside the Order, and he'll have to make a choice.

[Aquillion]

As a practical and tactical matter, the removal of V during a battle between the Order and Team Evil (which I expect to happen as one of the two V "time outs" that the fiends can opt for) acts as a power buff to Redcloak and Xykon bothbecause it removes from the field a very high level arcane caster. The debuff of the Order, in that sense, acts as a buff for Team Evil.
\
And that is when I expect MitD to level the playing field. Why?

Because his friend O-Chul will be battling alongside the Order, and he'll have to make a choice.
Well, I mean, also, presumably V and Roy (and the rest) have been planning for that very moment since V confessed what was up, since it's extremely obvious that this is a danger and they need to plan around it.

[Precure]

They're going to possess and control V's body as a vessel (they were lying (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html)) to cast the arcane part of the ritual, while the artifact (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) (a clerical soul? Nale?) within the vessel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) (a clerical body?) going to cast the divine part of the ritual. Then they will unleash it into one of the upper planes, and perhaps after that they transfer it into other upper planes next to it by using the planar gateways, with evil gods' help.


1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it...once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

[Peelee]

[QUOTE=Precure;25740661]They're going to possess and control V's body as a vessel (they were lying (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html))/QUOTE]

Five gold on this being wrong. All the rest of it too, but starting with this.

[Precure]

I don't gamble with strangers.

[Peelee]

I don't gamble with strangers.

What about normalers?

[Precure]

What about normalers?

I also don't watch JARCast.

[gbaji]

They're going to possess and control V's body as a vessel (they were lying (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html)) to cast the arcane part of the ritual, while the artifact (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) (a clerical soul? Nale?) within the vessel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) (a clerical body?) going to cast the divine part of the ritual. Then they will unleash it into one of the upper planes, and perhaps after that they transfer it into other upper planes next to it by using the planar gateways, with evil gods' help.

Even if they were lying to V, why would they also say misleading stuff when speaking amongst themselves? They said that Sabine would return with an appropriate vessel in short order (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html). That language suggests any of a number of things could be the vessel ("an" appropriate vessel, not "the" vessel), and presumably a plural number of them are "appropriate". Oh. And that Sabine is fetching it for them, which they would not need to do (nor are doing) with V.

Also, outside of just being Bond villains or something, what does this actually get them? I suppose it's possible that they are just taking their goals of "cause evil and death and destruction" to the nth degree. But I just don't see what they personally gain from this. Completing the ritual to allow the snarl to attack the outer planes would not seem to be a thing that would benefit anyone, especially outsiders, since they literally live in the planes that are not normally threatened by the snarl, unless someone does just this. I could see them unleashing the snarl on the prime material plane to sow death and destruction (and force the gods to destroy everything). I could see them trying to do some sort of energy siphon maybe. Releasing the snarl on the part of the universe they occupy? Seems kinda foolish.

[Precure]

Even if they were lying to V, why would they also say misleading stuff when speaking amongst themselves? They said that Sabine would return with an appropriate vessel in short order (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html). That language suggests any of a number of things could be the vessel ("an" appropriate vessel, not "the" vessel), and presumably a plural number of them are "appropriate". Oh. And that Sabine is fetching it for them, which they would not need to do (nor are doing) with V.

Vessel = Body. There is two vessels: one is V's body, other one is the body of divine caster.


Also, outside of just being Bond villains or something, what does this actually get them? I suppose it's possible that they are just taking their goals of "cause evil and death and destruction" to the nth degree. But I just don't see what they personally gain from this. Completing the ritual to allow the snarl to attack the outer planes would not seem to be a thing that would benefit anyone, especially outsiders, since they literally live in the planes that are not normally threatened by the snarl, unless someone does just this. I could see them unleashing the snarl on the prime material plane to sow death and destruction (and force the gods to destroy everything). I could see them trying to do some sort of energy siphon maybe. Releasing the snarl on the part of the universe they occupy? Seems kinda foolish

Because destroying upper planes is their goal (p. 12) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)

[InvisibleBison]

Vessel = Body.

There is absolutely no reason to think the vessel must be a body. And even if it was, it couldn't be V's body, because Sabine has exactly zero chance of successfully bringing V to the Lower Planes.

[Precure]

There is absolutely no reason to think the vessel must be a body. And even if it was, it couldn't be V's body, because Sabine has exactly zero chance of successfully bringing V to the Lower Planes.

As I said before, there is two bodies/vessels.

[InvisibleBison]

As I said before, there is two bodies/vessels.

Why do you think that? It seems to me to contradict what is said in the comic.

[Precure]

Why do you think that? It seems to me to contradict what is said in the comic.

I don't understand. First vessel is V, second vessel is the divine caster, Sabine is going to deliver the second vessel. Where's the contradiction?

[InvisibleBison]

I don't understand. First vessel is V, second vessel is the divine caster, Sabine is going to deliver the second vessel. Where's the contradiction?

The contradiction is that the comic only ever mentions one vessel. The existence of a second vessel is an idea entirely of your own creation, so you can't use it in support of another idea of yours, which is what you seem to be doing.

[Aquillion]

Because destroying upper planes is their goal (p. 12) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)
tbf we know they lied outright in at least one key part of that page. ("Your actual situation is more or less irrelevant to us" - there's no way to interpret that as just being misleading; it's a direct and baldfaced lie. They'd been working on getting V for a while, for reasons that are entirely about their actual situation.) That throws the rest into doubt.

They used misleading wording for the contract itself (because V had to actually agree to its wording.) But the rest of the things they said around it could have been flat lies, and we know they lied outright on at least one key point.

[gbaji]

Vessel = Body. There is two vessels: one is V's body, other one is the body of divine caster.


As I said before, there is two bodies/vessels.


I don't understand. First vessel is V, second vessel is the divine caster, Sabine is going to deliver the second vessel. Where's the contradiction?

Saying this three times doesn't make it true. Again. Read this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)

There is "the artifact" (that's singular), and "an approrpriate vesssel" (also singular). So one artifact, and one vessel. And the only vessel mentioned is one that Sabine "should return with ... in short order". So not V. Not unless "shortly" is "several days later" and Sabine is somehow going to show up and physically transport V to the IFCC. And why would they do that? They already have the ability to pull V (well, V's soul I guess) down to themselves by using one of their two remaining uses from the deal V made. The vessel, whatever it is, has to be something other than V.

A Vessel is just something that holds other things. Period. It could be a person, but need not be so. I've tossed out the (totally random speculation) that it's the chalice that Qarr was searching for earlier. It could be the Mechane. That's a vessel. It sould be Hinjo's junk (if we're going with the nautical theme). It could be a flower pot, or a box, or... well... anything.

All we can infer from this is that they have an artifact that "does something", and a vessel that "holds something", and that these two things are somehow involved in their plan.


Because destroying upper planes is their goal (p. 12) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)

Well. Storming the upper planes and bathing in the blood of their enemies, sure. But they seemed most interested in actually taking those locations with their own forces under their own control. Releasing the snarl on any outer plane will destroy everything in it, and make it unihabitable for *everyone* not just those aligned with that plane. And as the Giant has pointed out, any portals leading from that plane to another may cause the snarl to move on to other planes as well. And since there's no way to remove said snarl, and the universe lasts a really long time, this is basically amaggedon for any outer plane being. Eventually, the snarl will move and consume everything in every single outer plane.

While one might be tempted to use this and direct this at an enemy plane, eventually it'll turn on them as well. I suppose the gods might get together and somehow seal off an outer plane entirely, preventing any portals from being opened to or from it, to keep the snarl at bay. Maybe. And to be fair to your idea, if the IFCC is counting on this (or something similar) happening, they might think that they can blast one of the "good" aligned planes, and thereby upset the balance in favor of evil from now until the end of time or something. Maybe. It's not totally out of consideration. It's just incredibly risky. There's no reason to assume that the snarl will be blocked off in the very first plane it appears in, much less what other planes it might find access to from there, or how many it'll take out, or where it'll finally end up when enough of the more powerful forces in the unviverse finally decide on a plan to stop its spread.

This is somewhat akin to releasing a deadly incurable virus in your enemy's country and just kinda hoping it never spreads to yours. It's something someone despearate might try, but I don't see the IFCC as being at that level of desperation. TDO isn't actually intending to release the snarl either. He's just using the threat to try to get concessions. He's well aware that it would be just as bad for him as everyone else if it was actually released. I suppose we could assume that the IFCC directors are just that crazy and don't care about the consequences, but that does not seem to match the personalities we've seen from them so far.

Totally sounds like something the holey brotherhood might try to pull off though!

[Precure]

The contradiction is that the comic only ever mentions one vessel. The existence of a second vessel is an idea entirely of your own creation, so you can't use it in support of another idea of yours, which is what you seem to be doing.

Lee referred to V's body as a vessel here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html).

[InvisibleBison]

Lee referred to V's body as a vessel here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html).

How does that support your point?

[Precure]

How does that support your point?

"The contradiction is that the comic only ever mentions one vessel." Didn't you remember what you posted?

[InvisibleBison]

"The contradiction is that the comic only ever mentions one vessel." Didn't you remember what you posted?

The reference to V's body as a vessel was in a different conversation from the reference to Sabine recovering a vessel. There's no reason to think they're connected, which means the reference to a vessel in the first conversation doesn't carry over into the second conversation without some reason to think it does. In the actual conversation about the IFCC's next scheme, only one vessel is referenced, so your assumption that there are in fact two vessels is a contradiction of the text, regardless of the fact that the IFCC mentioned a vessel earlier in a different context.

[Precure]

Why would they refer to V's body in that conversation, it's already ready to serve them when the time comes up, and why would a lack of reference to it count as a contradiction? By that logic, they didn't refer to V at all during that conversation, so their plan must had nothing to do with V!

[Kish]

On the one hand, I think it very unlikely that Rich is going to have a "they were lying when they said they wouldn't or couldn't possess Vaarsuvius' body" reveal.

On the other hand...

...on the other hand...

...if they did, that would both make sense of why they want Vaarsuvius alive (most things they can accomplish by removing them would be more permanently and easily accomplished if Xykon had removed them permanently via death, certainly including them not telling Roy he shouldn't smash Girard's Gate), and go against the "Someone Said It So It's True" thing which I am always happy to see refuted.

[InvisibleBison]

Why would they refer to V's body in that conversation, it's already ready to serve them when the time comes up,

The artifact is also ready to serve them when the time comes up, and yet they mention it. Your argument is based on a false premise.

(It's also based on the unproven premise that they were lying about being able to hijack V's body. I don't think that's directly relevant, but I though it worth mentioning.)



and why would a lack if reference countvas a contradiction?

The text only says that one vessel is involved in the IFCC's plan. You are assuming that because they referred to V's body as a vessel in an earlier unrelated scene, their plan must actually involve two vessels, one of which is V's body. That assumption is the part that contradicts the text.



By that logic, they didn't refer to V at all during that conversation, so their plan must had nothing to do with V!

Yes, this is exactly my position. The IFCC didn't reference V in #1183 and there's currently no evidence their plan has anything to do with V. It's possible something will happen later on that shows their plan does in fact involve V, and it certainly isn't unreasonable to expect that it might, but as of now there's no evidence that it does.

[hroþila]

The earlier reference to V's body as a vessel just proves that "vessel" can refer to a body. Which is something that no one has denied (hence gbaji's "It could be a person, but need not be so"), and something we didn't need the comic to tell us because that's standard English. The point is that we can't know right now if the latter reference to a vessel also refers to a body. In fact, every character that has a body is a potential vessel in this sense, so you can't even say that there are two of them.

(I do believe this vessel the archfiends are talking about as part of their plan is probably a person or at least a body, but still)

[brian 333]

The Vessel is Thog, who is still alive, buried under the rubble of the arena. (There are no starvation rules, and he was never shown with x-eyes.) The Artifact is an intelligent demon bound into a greataxe.

They will be sent to destroy the gate and accidentally dismantle Xykon along the way, forcing Redcloak to team up with The OotS. Faced with certain defeat after Belkar sacrifices himself to save Roy, Redcloak and V team up to seal the rifts.

Every other dangling plot thread gets its own sequel book, taking the OotS well into the 2050s, spawning a new comic empire that grows as authors abandon Manga for digital publication supported by online souvenir sales. In her circa 2101 review of the comic industry, A. Berlew, great grandchild of the current author and future President of Giant In The Playground Publications, remarks on how her ancestor changed the world 100 years in her past by defying the wisdom of his time and self-publishing his dream.

Edit: Crap. I altered the timeline. I need to get in my time ship and fix things up. See you in a minute.

[Precure]

Why did they change the family name?

[brian 333]

Why did they change the family name?

Did I mention accidentally altering the time stream? Don't worry, this timeline will phase out soon and the real one will go on as normal. I fixed it real good this time.

[dancrilis]

I suspect their end game is much like the following:

http://www.geekyhobbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Hungry-Hungry-Hippos-Winning.jpg


Which does have a lot of similarities to Hel's plan.

[gbaji]

Why would they refer to V's body in that conversation, it's already ready to serve them when the time comes up, and why would a lack of reference to it count as a contradiction? By that logic, they didn't refer to V at all during that conversation, so their plan must had nothing to do with V!

I think the reference to V's body as a "vessel" is a decent clue in to the idea that they refer to a body, capable of holding a soul (or "something") as a vessel. So definitely could be a bit of a clue/foreshadowing as to what they are talking about later when they refer to "an appropriate vessel".

But none of that actually points to the idea that V's body will be used as a vessel as part of whatever their plan is. It just tells us that they use the word "vessel" in the traditional meaning (something that holds something else). V's body is a vessel, because it's capable of housing a soul. That's it. A ton of other things are *also* vessels. Two things being referred to by the same broad label doesn't mean that they are connected in any additional way.

Having said all of that, I'm not opposed to the idea that there's more to the whole deal with V than just "we get to hold your soul for X time". While it's useful to take V out of the equation at some critical point in time, that seems like an awful lot of effort to do just that. It's entirely possible that there are other, yet to be discovered, aspects to that deal.

But yeah, that doesn't mean that the artifact and vessel they were speeaking about later are reverences to V in any direct way. My broad speculation, just based on the terms themselves, is that they will use the artifact to "do something" which results in "something" being put into the "vessel" (whatever that is). And that specific vessel is not V's body, because otherwise they would not need Sabine to go retrieve it. Could very well be that said artifact somehow redirects souls or creative power or whatever, into this vessel, which will allow the IFCC to do <something eviil/powerful/whatever>.

Also, as I've speculated earlier, whatever it is they are doing has to be fairly significant and more or less upset the natural order of power. They are outsiders, and get their memories wiped after every "world destroyed then recreated" cycle. Since their plan (strongly appears to) involve(s) the destruction of the world, which will kick off that memory wipe process, whatever they are doing must result in them obtaining sufficient power/whatever to avoid that fate, and be able to survive the process. Otherwise, there's no point in doing it (well, unless we assume they actually don't know about the wipe, and are foolishly doing something that actually wont benefit them in the long run maybe).

This also somewhat implies that the vessel must be powerful enough to hold whatever they are putting into it. Which, presumably, must be whatever is in turn powerful enough for them to hold off the combined power of the gods themselves. This could be a single mortal being, maybe. Don't know. Seems like maybe something more is required though. From a storytelling pov though, it should be something/someone we know something about already though. Maybe. So.... eh. Could go in a lot of different directions here. I suppose it could operate the other way around, and the power is merely channeled thorugh the vessel and into the artifact, which in turn allows them to use that power. Maybe?

Still just way to many unknowns to do more than wild speculation IMO.

[Lumix19]

My suspicion is that the Three Fiends don't actually know much about the Gate or Snarl.

That Sabine went and told them what she learned from Nale about the Gates might imply that was the first they learned of it. She certainly didn't seem to know about them herself.

Of course, that doesn't discount that they did know something and just played along when Sabine came to report to them.

The other thing of note was that despite their claims about destroying the Upper Planes, that doesn't seem to be the whole part of their plan. The excuse they gave to Tiamat regarding Familicide was that it was "an unfortunate necessity of a secret scheme to bring down the gods of Good". Yet Cedrik notes that that explanation is only "technically true".

So is the full scope of their plan greater than that? I think those guessing that the IFCC want to destroy all the gods might not be wrong there. They do already have a non-compete clause with the evil gods which might suggest some past issues on that front.

Perhaps then, they simply believe that they can release the Snarl and direct it towards the gods? They might be under a severe misapprehension about their capacity to control it and their ability to clean up whatever mess it leaves behind.

[ti'esar]

My suspicion is that the Three Fiends don't actually know much about the Gate or Snarl.

That Sabine went and told them what she learned from Nale about the Gates might imply that was the first they learned of it. She certainly didn't seem to know about them herself.

Of course, that doesn't discount that they did know something and just played along when Sabine came to report to them.

The other thing of note was that despite their claims about destroying the Upper Planes, that doesn't seem to be the whole part of their plan. The excuse they gave to Tiamat regarding Familicide was that it was "an unfortunate necessity of a secret scheme to bring down the gods of Good". Yet Cedrik notes that that explanation is only "technically true".

So is the full scope of their plan greater than that? I think those guessing that the IFCC want to destroy all the gods might not be wrong there. They do already have a non-compete clause with the evil gods which might suggest some past issues on that front.

Perhaps then, they simply believe that they can release the Snarl and direct it towards the gods? They might be under a severe misapprehension about their capacity to control it and their ability to clean up whatever mess it leaves behind.

While I've been drawn to the idea that they're intending to destroy all the gods as well, I actually find that conversation a strong argument against it. They give off every indication that "compensating" Tiamat by killing a large number of metallic dragons is very much a thing they intend to do (albeit as a side effect of their actual endgame) rather than implying that the whole issue won't even matter - as would more likely be the case if they intended to destroy Tiamat as well.

[gbaji]

While I've been drawn to the idea that they're intending to destroy all the gods as well, I actually find that conversation a strong argument against it. They give off every indication that "compensating" Tiamat by killing a large number of metallic dragons is very much a thing they intend to do (albeit as a side effect of their actual endgame) rather than implying that the whole issue won't even matter - as would more likely be the case if they intended to destroy Tiamat as well.

Well, "technically" if the gods destroy the world, then all the dragons will die, right?

[Sloanzilla]

So, was rereading the end of the previous book last night and discovered that cutaway where the fiends are discussing their plan. It was stated that Sabine is undercover somewhere.

I'm sure there's a good "Who is Sabine right now?" thread somewhere, but I couldn't seem to find it.

[RatElemental]

I just realized: Since the outer planes survive the snarl's wrath, and the gods have to reset the outsider's memories lest they get "weird," then if the gods just didn't do that how long might the outsiders be able to last? They're immortal in terms of not dying unless killed by violence, and don't seem to need to subsist on an influx of souls like the gods.

The best long term outcome for the IFCC might indeed be to destroy the material plane and keep it destroyed so they can rule hell forever without the gods mashing their reset buttons every thousand years or so. Sure, without new souls fed into the grinder the demons partaking in the blood war will eventually run out, but the IFCC's stated goal is to get the three types of fiends to work together to invade the other outer planes instead of each other anyway.

[brian 333]

I don't think outsiders have no energy requirements. I think they must be powered by the energy of the planes, whether directly, as in elementals, or indirectly such as servants of deities and pantheons.

[Precure]

They're probably feed on souls as well.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Maybe the three IFCC Fiends are just straight-up omnicidal maniacs.

To paraphrase a certain butler, sometimes people simply can't be bought, bullied or reasoned with, they just want to watch the world (or in this case, universe) burn.

Maybe the Fiends' "endgame" is just complete and total cosmological destruction, maybe as revenge for ... I don't know. Some perceived injustice, maybe. Possibly for pure amusement. They don't even necessarily have to have a reason at all.

Since universal destruction precludes having a world to rule, I suspect that Xykon and Redcloak and Co. are going to be forced into a temporary cooperation with the OotS whenever the IFCC puts their vessel/artifact plan into motion and surely blindsides everyone else at once. Then, only once the Fiends' threat is dealt with, will both original sides square off and settle their differences and blood oaths once and for all.

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe the three IFCC Fiends are just straight-up omnicidal maniacs.
Well, they are fiends.

To paraphrase a certain butler, sometimes people simply can't be bought, bullied or reasoned with, they just want to watch the world (or in this case, universe) burn. I could buy into this if all three were chaotic, but only Cedric is Chaotic; Nero is Neutral and Lee is Lawful.
Their long term objective is spelled out in Strip 633. Second-to-last panel. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)

Maybe the Fiends' "endgame" is just complete and total cosmological destruction, maybe as revenge for ... I don't know. Some perceived injustice, maybe. Possibly for pure amusement. They don't even necessarily have to have a reason at all. Nope, their end game motive is spelled out in based on Strip 632 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html)(sixth panel): they see that the Blood War only benefits the Good gods. They intend to divert the energy expended in the Blood War toward the upper planes, and thus inflict their combined violence upon the Upper Planes.
Standard Hell-versus-Heaven-battle-trope (One example of many would be the Diablo III game assault on heaven phase of the game ... IIRC, ACT IV) with an OotS contextual twist.

Since universal destruction precludes having a world to rule, If what they are doing lays waste to the upper planes, the world remains, but it would be under the dominion of demons, daemons, and devils ~ more or less the lower planes would be the only planes with influence.

[Aquillion]

As I mentioned above, I wouldn't trust anything they said to V at all. They told several things we know to be lies there (Qarr even points it out.) And their long-term goal is something they would have particular reason to lie about, since they didn't want V to know that they were targeting them specifically as part of that plan.

[Peelee]

As I mentioned above, I wouldn't trust anything they said to V at all. They told several things we know to be lies there (Qarr even points it out.) And their long-term goal is something they would have particular reason to lie about, since they didn't want V to know that they were targeting them specifically as part of that plan.

I trust the limits of what they can do to V's body/soul, since they didn't lie about that (that we know of) and also the lack of any foreshadowing showing otherwise that's all the audience knows as well.

[Aquillion]

I trust the limits of what they can do to V's body/soul, since they didn't lie about that (that we know of) and also the lack of any foreshadowing showing otherwise that's all the audience knows as well.Oh yeah, I definitely think they had to tell the truth (or use deceptive wording) for the actual deal itself.

But for their actual goals, my assumption is that they straight-up lied. Again, remember, they told V that "your actual situation is more or less irrelevant to us" which is a baldfaced lie (and Qarr called them out on that (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) shortly afterwards, since it was so obviously untrue.)

And the goals they described to V aren't really something that I feel the scene presented as "trustworthy" - it's part of the pitch to V, and also a vital part of the core "we were just passing through" lie. They needed to give V some sort of explanation for their actions and goals that would avoid revealing that the deal was targeted at the gates, and a vague handwavy lie where they claimed to have generic goals suitable for fiends suited that.

[Peelee]

Oh yeah, I definitely think they had to tell the truth (or use deceptive wording) for the actual deal itself.

But for their actual goals, my assumption is that they straight-up lied. Again, remember, they told V that "your actual situation is more or less irrelevant to us" which is a baldfaced lie (and Qarr called them out on that (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) shortly afterwards, since it was so obviously untrue.)

And the goals they described to V aren't really something that I feel the scene presented as "trustworthy" - it's part of the pitch to V, and also a vital part of the core "we were just passing through" lie. They needed to give V some sort of explanation for their actions and goals that would avoid revealing that the deal was targeted at the gates, and a vague handwavy lie where they claimed to have generic goals suitable for fiends suited that.

Oh, totally. But the best lies are sprinkled among the truth.

[Mic_128]

Their long term objective is spelled out in Strip 633. Second-to-last panel. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)
Nope, their end game motive is spelled out in based on Strip 632 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html)(sixth panel): they see that the Blood War only benefits the Good gods. They intend to divert the energy expended in the Blood War toward the upper planes, and thus inflict their combined violence upon the Upper Planes.
Standard Hell-versus-Heaven-battle-trope (One example of many would be the Diablo III game assault on heaven phase of the game ... IIRC, ACT IV) with an OotS contextual twist.

Huh. You know, we did see that evil adventuring party plane-shift their way up there...

[Fish]

Interesting discussion.

V as a vessel. It’s possible that the IFCC was telling the truth when they said they would not possess V’s body. However, that doesn’t mean it is still true. Perhaps they did not previously have a way, and have since gained an ability they didn’t previously have — like the artifact that was mentioned. It’s also possible that something else could possess V’s body, like the roaming soul that escaped the soul splice the first time around, leaving the IFCC’s hands technically clean (“get our followers’ hands dirty”).

The IFCC’s goals. We know the IFCC wants battle with the Upper Planes. I don’t think this information is new or even relevant; it’s kind of what the Lower Planes want by default. It suggests to me that what the IFCC wants most is for the status quo to continue. If they somehow know that their memories keep getting erased, then it’s likely they want that to not happen again.

We can say with certainty that the IFCC wanted the destruction of Girard’s Gate — they intervened when V was about to tell the Order not to. Whether it was the actual destruction itself that they wanted, or some consequence that would follow from its destruction (eg, forcing the showdown at Kraagor’s Gate, the Godsmoot, Hel’s plan), is unclear.

It is not clear to me that they necessarily wanted Hel’s plan to succeed. All they said was “Hel’s plan is indefinitely stalled. It was too much to hope for that the gods would do our work for us.” That could mean a) they wanted the gods to destroy the world or b) they wanted the gods to stop Hel at the Godsmoot but the OOTS did all the heavy lifting by defeating the vampires. If the IFCC was lukewarm on Hel’s plan — and why wouldn’t they be, because they gain nothing from inter-deity politics) then destroying Girard’s Gate might have been a gambit to force Redcloak to Kraagor’s Gate.

The artifact. One, we can guess that it isn’t easily portable — Cedrik says he “had it moved” to his place. He didn’t say “I brought it” or “I took it” to his place. Maybe the artifact is like a big throne or a magic circle or something. Cedrik being Chaotic Evil, this implicates Sabine as a possible user or participant. Two, they don’t know if it works yet, and that Sabine was looking for a suitable vessel. This suggests it is something that they, as Outsiders (including Sabine) cannot test themselves, or one they would never wish to test on themselves. If that is the case, then they may require some other kind of being to actually operate the artifact — a being of a certain class, race (like the red cloak), gender, alignment, or whatever. It might also require that the user of the artifact — or the target of it — to have a soul (as Outsiders do not have a soul separable from their body). Hence, they don’t know yet if it works.

My conclusion: The artifact they created gives someone the power to remotely control or possess other beings while never leaving their home plane.

1. They knew the last remaining gate after Girard’s was Kraagor’s.
2. They suspected that Redcloak would need assistance from an otherworldly being to work out how to find the right logical solution. It is part of his known method (always summoning elementals).
3. Sabine found a quinton that could be used as a vessel for possession, so when Redcloak summoned something, they would be able to place their agent on Redcloak’s team.
4. Some non-Outsider (a living being, a soul, whatever) is being used to operate the device. Could be Nale (who was nominally Lawful, but whose predilection for going off the rails might lead to weird behavior like the number-of-letters rule going on right now; but also could be Sabine, who is good at impersonating others, or even someone else). Or the Outsiders are allowed to use the artifact; they just needed a being (“a suitable vessel”) they could test it on.
5. They could now control V’s body, maybe, but they can’t control it and the quinton at the same time.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, "technically" if the gods destroy the world, then all the dragons will die, right?

Yes, but they don't phrase it like that. They say it'll be poultry to compensate her if things go their way (paraphrasing) not that it won't matter because she'll just be dead too or anything to that effect.

[KorvinStarmast]

1. They knew the last remaining gate after Girard’s was Kraagor’s.
Check

2. They suspected that Redcloak would need assistance from an otherworldly being to work out how to find the right logical solution. It is part of his known method (always summoning elementals).
Check

3. Sabine found a quinton that could be used as a vessel for possession, so when Redcloak summoned something, they would be able to place their agent on Redcloak’s team. I think that's a reach, given that a quinton is a creature of law and is not likely to respond well to Sabine.


4. Some non-Outsider (a living being, a soul, whatever) is being used to operate the device. Could be Nale Nale was lawful? Never came across that way to me. But I guess he has to be since he's the comic opposite of Elan.

I don't see how the fiends control a quinton, TBH.

[gbaji]

Yes, but they don't phrase it like that. They say it'll be poultry to compensate her if things go their way (paraphrasing) not that it won't matter because she'll just be dead too or anything to that effect.

They said that "If our plans for the gates really works, such a slaughter will be trivial" here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html).

Which might lead one to assume that they plan to hijack TDO's plan and use it themselves somehow. Except that they certainly seemed to also want the gods to destroy the world (Hel's plan). Which would also destroy all of the gates, and any ability to use and direct the snarl. I suppose we could technically interpret their statement about getting the gods to do their work for them, as meaning they wanted the gods to vote *against* Hel's plan (ie: vote to *not* destroy the world right now), but it's a pretty torturous interpretation IMO, considering that Hel's plan being "on hold" results in the same thing (the world not being destroyed right now).

It just feels more to me like their "plan for the gates" is basically to manipulate things from a "enough gates to hold the world together" status-quo condition to "the gates are failing and the gods have to end the world". Why they want this is still unclear, but it certainly seems like this is at least the direction they want things to go.

If they really did have a means to hijack TDOs plan, then they'd have wanted V to stop Roy from destroying Girard's gate. TE was minutes away from teleporting in, and would in all likelihood have gained full control of that gate at that time, giving them (presuambly) the exact conditions they needed to seize control themselves (if they had this ability somehow). So whatever they need, it needs to happen as part of a final struggle over the very last gate.


I don't see how the fiends control a quinton, TBH.

Yeah. I don't see it either. It's somewhere in a similar power level under an opposed alignment faction. I also don't really see such things as things that can be controlled. They literally are manifestations of their respective planar alignments. So you could presuambly defeat/dismiss/whatever their manifested forms on the material plane, but control them in some way? Not seeing that.

This also doesn't tell us what the actual plan is. "Control the Quinton" isn't a plan. It's a means to pursue a plan. So yeah. Let's say you somehow hijack control of a Quinton. Then what?

[Rrmcklin]

They said that "If our plans for the gates really works, such a slaughter will be trivial" here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html).

Yes, a statement which inherently implies they plan on fulfilling their agreement. That is the point I'm making. It does not lead itself to mean "we're just going to kill all the gods, including Tiamat, so it won't matter".

They could be planning something like that, and the dialogue is obfuscating that fact because the Giant wants to keep us guessing (he's done similar things before) but until given more reason to assume that's the case with this specific dialogue, I won't assume that.

[Kish]

I'm confused. I don't think gbaji's saying anything about the IFCC wanting to destroy the gods--except as the first sentence of the second paragraph of their most recent post, where it's a lead-in to "someone might think this is their plan but if so I disagree."

[gbaji]

I'm confused. I don't think gbaji's saying anything about the IFCC wanting to destroy the gods--except as the first sentence of the second paragraph of their most recent post, where it's a lead-in to "someone might think this is their plan but if so I disagree."

Correct. My earlier point is that if "get the gods to destroy the world" is part of their plan (which is suggested by their statement about Hel's plan), and "gods destroying the world" presumably includes killing every dragon that lives in the world, then technically, their "plan" mets the promise made to Tiamat.

I'm not even sure where the idea that the IFCC wants to destroy the gods came from. I certainly never proposed it. And yeah, if anything I've dismissed that as a likely scenario because if they had some means to hijack TDO's plan to do their own nefarious thing with the gate/snarl that would allow them to destroy the gods, or the upper planes, or whatever, they would not have needed to stop V from stopping Roy.

Yet they did. Which means that they wanted Girard's gate to be destroyed. Which suggests strongly that their "plan for the gates" doesn't actually involve them "using a gate" for something. It seems far more likely that they are using their destruction to force the gods to destroy the world. Why they want this is subject to a ton of speculation, but this does seem to be at least part of their plan.

[brian 333]

There may be a degree of Brinkmanship going on here. Push the gods to the edge of destroying the world, then provide leverage to save it, thereby increasing their status and power. With the increased status, focus the lower planes against the upper in an all out war that gives all the greater outsiders from the nether regions an opportunity to become indebted to the IFCC.

[Rrmcklin]

I guess I misunderstood then. Sorry.

[Aquillion]

Nale was lawful? Never came across that way to me. But I guess he has to be since he's the comic opposite of Elan.
The Giant has implied that he is not, here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15364378&postcount=36).

[KorvinStarmast]

The Giant has implied that he is not, here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15364378&postcount=36).
Thanks. Glad it isn't just me who has a hard time with Nale being Lawful. :smallsmile:

[JennTora]

Yes, a statement which inherently implies they plan on fulfilling their agreement. That is the point I'm making. It does not lead itself to mean "we're just going to kill all the gods, including Tiamat, so it won't matter".

They could be planning something like that, and the dialogue is obfuscating that fact because the Giant wants to keep us guessing (he's done similar things before) but until given more reason to assume that's the case with this specific dialogue, I won't assume that.

Uh was it the devil one that promised that? I don't know which ifcc member belongs to which subcategory of fiends, but lawful evil often means they'll keep their word, even if only to the letter. So he may have been in effect saying "I did have to promise to kill oodles of good dragons one day." And they basically said "that will happen, don't worry."

[brian 333]

The IFCC is coded for your convenience:
LEe
NEro
CEdrik

[KorvinStarmast]

The IFCC is coded for your convenience:
LEe
NEro
CEdrik
I'd forgotten that some people need to be told that, the joke explained, the frog dissected ...

[Peelee]

But also they're used pretty much interchangeably as far as thr dialogue goes.

[ZhonLord]

But also they're used pretty much interchangeably as far as thr dialogue goes.

Except for when it comes to referring to one's college years.