Why doesn't the Dark One talk to Redcloak?

[PBlades]

The Dark One talks to Jirix (#704), even going so far as to tell him to be the civil leader of Gobbotopia. Why doesn't he talk to Redcloak (#1206)?

Redcloak doesn't know. Any of y'all want to post your guesses or theories here to later point back to once the big reveal happens?

[Tzardok]

The Dark One talked to Jirix because he, y'know, died and went to see him directly. Redcloak never died, nor did he go planes-hopping to visit him (the Dark One would propably also not be happy about that; Redcloak has got a job to do on the Material).
As for why the Dark One doesn't send him visions or something? Maybe he's too busy. Maybe it's exhausting and he doesn't see the need (or he requires a lot more power before being able to do it willy-nilly). Maybe he's a "tough love" guy who wants his high cleric to do his job without holding his hand. Who knows?

[Sigako]

For me it looks TDO doesn't even care about goblinoids anymore, and The Plan is for his personal sake, and he will throw them under the proverbial bus the moment it succeeds (since he can threaten the gods he can install himself as the top god of the world instead of being limited to goblinoids, to still get the divine sustenance).

[hroþila]

It would make sense for the Dark One to actively contact Redcloak, or at least to answer him (I think #1206 implies that Redcloak has tried to speak to the Dark One at least once or twice, although it's not proof), the way Hel answered Vamp Durkon's Commune spells because Durkon was key to her plans. So in that sense something might be off. On the other hand, Thor didn't contact Durkon in any way until he could do it in person in the afterlife, even though Durkon was also very important to Thor's plans.

Maybe it's just that it consumes a lot of energy, and Hel is just less careful about that kind of thing (I'd say that would fit her characterization overall). Maybe the Dark One simply doesn't think Redcloak needs closer guidance because he's already doing what he wants him to do.

For me it looks TDO doesn't even care about goblinoids anymore, and The Plan is for his personal sake, and he will throw them under the proverbial bus the moment it succeeds (since he can threaten the gods he can install himself as the top god of the world instead of being limited to goblinoids, to still get the divine sustenance).
That might well be the case but in itself it doesn't explain why the Dark One wouldn't talk to Redcloak if only for selfish reasons.

[Fyraltari]

Reasonnable guess: Redclaok only gaine dthe ability to call his god sometimes after he crossed one of the many lines he knows he shouldn't have but tells himself it's for the greater good. And like a child with bad grades, he's afraid to confront his authority figure out of shame, so he tells himself that High Priests never making contact with their boss is just the way things are.

Less reasonnable guess: Something is going on with the Dark One that Redcloak doesn't know about and Big Purple doesn't want him finding out.

[Bacon Elemental]

For me it looks TDO doesn't even care about goblinoids anymore, and The Plan is for his personal sake, and he will throw them under the proverbial bus the moment it succeeds (since he can threaten the gods he can install himself as the top god of the world instead of being limited to goblinoids, to still get the divine sustenance).

I think its been pointed out that because the Snarl is an uncontrollable one-shot superweapon, the ability to extract concessions from the other gods is not unlimited. There are a lot of Chaotic or Good gods who might be inclined, if presented with a "Bow down to me or die" ultimatum by the upstart instead of "Let's change things up a bit around here", to choose to go down fighting, and the moment TDO actually unleashes the Snarl he's a dead god walking to the surviving pantheons.

[Kish]

I think its been pointed out that because the Snarl is an uncontrollable one-shot superweapon, the ability to extract concessions from the other gods is not unlimited. There are a lot of Chaotic or Good gods who might be inclined, if presented with a "Bow down to me or die" ultimatum by the upstart instead of "Let's change things up a bit around here", to choose to go down fighting, and the moment TDO actually unleashes the Snarl he's a dead god walking to the surviving pantheons.
As far as that goes, I think the Dark One's plan is doomed. There are too many gods who, because of their portfolios/what their worshipers believe about them/etc., can't give in, even if his demands were all reasonable. And, quite possibly, having been deified by a goblinoid uprising that happened because of human/elven/dwarven treachery, the Dark One is similarly unable to contemplate any approach that doesn't involve forcing compliance, and unable to back down from the gods that he--or his worshipers--associate with that betrayal.

Beyond that, a question Durkon obviously didn't ask Redcloak, because Durkon was trying to negotiate with someone he believed could be reasoned with, which I would very much like to know the answer to, is, "Have you tried casting Commune?"

[Metastachydium]

For me it looks TDO doesn't even care about goblinoids anymore, and The Plan is for his personal sake, and he will throw them under the proverbial bus the moment it succeeds (since he can threaten the gods he can install himself as the top god of the world instead of being limited to goblinoids, to still get the divine sustenance).

That's canonically a false assumption (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?602358-The-problem-with-Thor-and-Durkon-s-plan&p=24253092#post24253092). Would you all please stop bringing it up?


On the other hand, Thor didn't contact Durkon in any way until he could do it in person in the afterlife, even though Durkon was also very important to Thor's plans.

Listen to this guy, folks!


Reasonnable guess: Redclaok only gaine dthe ability to call his god sometimes after he crossed one of the many lines he knows he shouldn't have but tells himself it's for the greater good. And like a child with bad grades, he's afraid to confront his authority figure out of shame, so he tells himself that High Priests never making contact with their boss is just the way things are.

Well, that does sound like Redcloak.


As far as that goes, I think the Dark One's plan is doomed. There are too many gods who, because of their portfolios/what their worshipers believe about them/etc., can't give in, even if his demands were all reasonable. And, quite possibly, having been deified by a goblinoid uprising that happened because of human/elven/dwarven treachery, the Dark One is similarly unable to contemplate any approach that doesn't involve forcing compliance, and unable to back down from the gods that he--or his worshipers--associate with that betrayal.

While the latter is plausible, I wouldn't count on the former. That's not how the Establishment Pantheons work; there's a clear set of rules they all agreed to abide by and one of these is that a simple majority trumps dissent, period. If enough gods agree, what Oh-So-CN/G Deity and their worshippers think is pretty much perfectly irrelevant.

[fergo]

Reasonnable guess: Redclaok only gaine dthe ability to call his god sometimes after he crossed one of the many lines he knows he shouldn't have but tells himself it's for the greater good. And like a child with bad grades, he's afraid to confront his authority figure out of shame, so he tells himself that High Priests never making contact with their boss is just the way things are.

I like this reading because it fits what we know of Redcloak perfectly.

[Psyren]

That's canonically a false assumption (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?602358-The-problem-with-Thor-and-Durkon-s-plan&p=24253092#post24253092). Would you all please stop bringing it up?

Well, the "TDO's real plan is to take over everything" part is indeed false. But the part where he might not actually care about the (living) goblins' welfare is still up in the air.

(Sidenote, thanks for that link, I really do need to just read through all of the Giant's posts at some point.)


Reasonable guess: Redclaok only gaine dthe ability to call his god sometimes after he crossed one of the many lines he knows he shouldn't have but tells himself it's for the greater good. And like a child with bad grades, he's afraid to confront his authority figure out of shame, so he tells himself that High Priests never making contact with their boss is just the way things are.

Less reasonnable guess: Something is going on with the Dark One that Redcloak doesn't know about and Big Purple doesn't want him finding out.

Both of these ring true to me, though the former doesn't explain why TDO hasn't communicated the other way. (Maybe he has guilt of his own? I guess the second one covers that if so.)

...

There's another thing that's been bugging me about the Dark One. He alone out of a googolplex of world attempts ascended entirely on his own (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html), and attained a brand new quiddity as a result. The gods don't appear to know why (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) - which is why it's so imperative that they get TDO's help in this world - and Redcloak's story in SoD doesn't explain why either. But I feel like that secret is something everybody should be doing everything in their power to discover. And what if he does know?

[Metastachydium]

Well, the "TDO's real plan is to take over everything" part is indeed false. But the part where he might not actually care about the (living) goblins' welfare is still up in the air.

That's not untrue, yes, merely speculative.


(Sidenote, thanks for that link, I really do need to just read through all of the Giant's posts at some point.)

(Anytime! And indeed, they are worth being kept up with.)

[Fyraltari]

Both of these ring true to me, though the former doesn't explain why TDO hasn't communicated the other way. (Maybe he has guilt of his own? I guess the second one covers that if so.)
Every time a god and a mortal have a talk, the mortal came to the god (either literally or was the one to cast a spell), it might be that he simply can't.


There's another thing that's been bugging me about the Dark One. He alone out of a googolplex of world attempts ascended entirely on his own (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html), and attained a brand new quiddity as a result. The gods don't appear to know why (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) - which is why it's so imperative that they get TDO's help in this world - and Redcloak's story in SoD doesn't explain why either. But I feel like that secret is something everybody should be doing everything in their power to discover. And what if he does know?
There's a theory floating around that TDO ascended without help because he (and the goblins in general) loathed the established three pantheons. Since Thor's talk with Durkon more-or-less says that the goblins' predicament was a fluke ("we didn't really plan it that way on purpose... but I guess we didn't really prevent it either (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html)"), it might be that this is the first world where a large population was in such a bad position, making it the first time that a large population rejected the gods making it the first wolrd where a mortal died with the absolute devotion of millions of people who didn't also worship other gods, denying the budding deity access to the previous godly quiddities.

Or maybe it's something else.

As for people doing everything in their power to find out how that happened... Well the mortals don't have access to divine essences to study and the gods dare not go near other pantheons for fear of a second Snarl so they all only have access to their own quiddity for analysis making understanding the underlying mechanics a tall order. Also, I really doubt The Giant wants to think of such a mechanism to explain. This isn't Tamriel, we're not here for this kind of meta^physical high concept god-talk.

[Fish]

The Dark One is unwilling to respond; the Dark One is unable to respond; or the Dark One does not exist.

The first seems unlikely; the Dark One has every interest in communicating the Plan (or parts of it) to his people, and this is backed up by his (attested) discussion with Jirix.

The second seems reasonable; the gods do not communicate with their followers very well in general, and specifically on this subject matter. From a meta-narrative standpoint, Rich gates the flow of information to the reader.

The third seems only a dim and distant possibility, and would rely on unreliable narration — characters speaking of TDO as if he existed, but not actually knowing themselves. The gods that were aware of him would have to be mistaken somehow. It would also rely on Rich explicitly lying to the readers that TDO is an entity at all, or that TDO has motivations that Rich could explicate. However, one could imagine Rich’s explanation is a red herring, and TDO was created by the Snarl to do its bidding — destroy the jailers who hold the key to its prison.

[KillianHawkeye]

It's been mentioned before (don't recall where, sorry) that other mortals who have ascended to godhood were always helped by one of the existing pantheons, and thus inherited that pantheon's quiddity. For some reason, this didn't happen with The Dark One.

Is it because none of the other pantheons wanted him? Did they just not notice it? Or was his ascension predicated on the total will of all goblins to punch the other gods in the face? We might never know for sure.

It's important to the story that it happened, but we may never learn the how or the why of it...

[Psyren]

Every time a god and a mortal have a talk, the mortal came to the god (either literally or was the one to cast a spell), it might be that he simply can't.

Point. And the fact that Thor got irritated that Durkon only prepared one Commune backs this up.


There's a theory floating around that TDO ascended without help because he (and the goblins in general) loathed the established three pantheons. Since Thor's talk with Durkon more-or-less says that the goblins' predicament was a fluke ("we didn't really plan it that way on purpose... but I guess we didn't really prevent it either (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html)"), it might be that this is the first world where a large population was in such a bad position, making it the first time that a large population rejected the gods making it the first wolrd where a mortal died with the absolute devotion of millions of people who didn't also worship other gods, denying the budding deity access to the previous godly quiddities.

Or maybe it's something else.

I definitely think it's something else - Thor specifically said Fenris has done this to goblinoids every time they did a fantasy world, so can't just be the fact that goblins in this world got a raw deal. There has to be something else beyond the systemic inequity... maybe no other warlord was successful enough at unifying their Belief before.


As for people doing everything in their power to find out how that happened... Well the mortals don't have access to divine essences to study and the gods dare not go near other pantheons for fear of a second Snarl so they all only have access to their own quiddity for analysis making understanding the underlying mechanics a tall order. Also, I really doubt The Giant wants to think of such a mechanism to explain. This isn't Tamriel, we're not here for this kind of meta^physical high concept god-talk.

I more meant the gods should be looking into it. The secret to mortal ascension has to be the biggest secret in the universe after all, yet not one appears to have a single theory?

[Tzardok]

I more meant the gods should be looking into it. The secret to mortal ascension has to be the biggest secret in the universe after all, yet not one appears to have a single theory?

A) Half the gods don't even belief that the Dark One is actually a new quiddity; B) how do we know that no one has a theory? We only know what Thor told Durkon. I don't know wether Thor would have told Durkon if he has any ideas, but he certainly can't tell him wether those gods who want to wait till an unsupported ascension happens next have any ideas how to accelerate that if they didn't tell him.

[Sigako]

I think its been pointed out that because the Snarl is an uncontrollable one-shot superweapon, the ability to extract concessions from the other gods is not unlimited. There are a lot of Chaotic or Good gods who might be inclined, if presented with a "Bow down to me or die" ultimatum by the upstart instead of "Let's change things up a bit around here", to choose to go down fighting, and the moment TDO actually unleashes the Snarl he's a dead god walking to the surviving pantheons.

This presupposes that TDO is capable of a forethought and social insight beyond that of a brutal warlord. While this is possible, it wasn't yet proven: his death due to betrayal and initial treatment by other gods really skewed his outlook, and with his main source of Belief being the cult led by a petty and hypocritical Redcloack, he might be quite different from a person that united the goblinoids in his life.
So, while this strategy will surely backfire, we are not sure whether TDO himself understands this. Which would actually make for a good conflict, narratively.



Returning to his silence: I'm pretty sure Redcoack at least tried to ask him for a Commune in one of his trances, and the high priest of your religion and your closest proxy in the world would be one of the few persons to set a unique ringtone by default.
Also, the wording implies some of the other gods in fact do deign to chat, or at least grant a direct and clear, of non-interactive vision, about less secret topics.
So, another possibility (and I'm skipping some steps) is that he doesn't see RC as a person with his own will, but merely as an extension of the cloack (which in SoD indeed overwrote his personality to an extent) and The Plan, and, being an Evil and a brutal warlord, thinks it is beneath his dignity to even acknowledge his tools pleas - if RC is competent enough, he will bring success for The Plan on his own, and if he screws up, he's to become a scapegoat for acting on his own, while TDO is beyond reproach.

[hroþila]

What makes you think that a warlord wouldn't be keenly aware that disproportionate demands harden the resolve to resist? That's a very practical and immediately relevant thing for a warlord to understand.

[Roland Itiative]

The gods appear to be somehow unable to contact their mortal servants directly like that, seeing how Thor and The Dark One never did it except when their folowers were dead. Durkula seems like the big exception to it, and even then we don't know why. Maybe it's because he was a dark spirit created directly by Hel, and therefore closer to her than a regular cleric, or maybe it was because Hel had no followers before, so she can focus her attention on the pleas of one of few that existed at that point. Or some other reason altogether.

[Metastachydium]

Every time a god and a mortal have a talk, the mortal came to the god (either literally or was the one to cast a spell), it might be that he simply can't.


The second seems reasonable; the gods do not communicate with their followers very well in general, and specifically on this subject matter. From a meta-narrative standpoint, Rich gates the flow of information to the reader.


Point. And the fact that Thor got irritated that Durkon only prepared one Commune backs this up.


The gods appear to be somehow unable to contact their mortal servants directly like that, seeing how Thor and The Dark One never did it except when their folowers were dead. Durkula seems like the big exception to it, and even then we don't know why. Maybe it's because he was a dark spirit created directly by Hel, and therefore closer to her than a regular cleric, or maybe it was because Hel had no followers before, so she can focus her attention on the pleas of one of few that existed at that point. Or some other reason altogether.

A very good point indeed. (I'm frankly baffled by Thor getting an entirely different treatment for doing the same thing.)


So, while this strategy will surely backfire, we are not sure whether TDO himself understands this.

No, we don't know that it will surely backfire, and wrong, we are, again, absolutely certain Big Purple understands what's too much to ask, because the Giant told us that. Explicitly (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?602358-The-problem-with-Thor-and-Durkon-s-plan&p=24253092#post24253092).

[Fyraltari]

A very good point indeed. (I'm frankly baffled by Thor getting an entirely different treatment for doing the same thing.)

Well for most of the comic it wasn't clear how much Thor was aware of what Durkon was caught up in and Durkon only recently became Thor's own agent for this matter. By contrast Redcloak has always worked at the behest of the Dark One which makes it weird he's allowed complete autonomy without having to report to his master. There's also the fact that during Thor and Durkon's talk Thor requested Durkon cast Commune more frequently assuring that he'll answer to give direction and answer any queries Durkon might have with regards to the task at hand. When the Dark One had the possibility to pass a message to Redcloak through Jirix he did not take it to make the same request, implying that he seems fine with the way Redcloak currently operates even though that seemingly squanders the obvious tactical advantages that having a god in your corner provides. Hel was able to delay the Order by setting up the giant ambush and then notify Durkon* of their ETA. It's almost guaranteed that TDO could trivially see through Serini's anti-scrying measures (the cloud realm allows any random caster to punch through Cloister so a god shouldn't have any issue) meaning that instead of wasting time exploring each dungeon Redcloak could have cast Commune once and be told where the Rift exactly is, bypassing Kraagor's Gauntlet entirely.

And finally TDO's silence is shown by contrasting it with Thor's more open communication during the two priests' negotiation. Hell, we know that even back before Durkon was aware of the Rifts Thor was willing to have a chat with him when he prepared spells. By contrast, the narrative pointed out several times the fact that Red never actually had a talk with his boss, so it feels like something's going on.

[Janmorel]

I'm thinking that it might be a block on Redcloak's side of things, not the Dark One's. TDO sent Jirix back with a message for Redcloak, which means he's not unwilling to communicate. And given how few goblinoids actually return from the afterlife, it might have been his first chance in a while to do so. The thing is, I do believe that Redcloak wants to speak with the Dark One. But, to borrow some metaphors from Oona, I think he only wants to meet with him in the fancy cottage in Right-All-Along. Because if he meets him anywhere else, someone could unleash the dolphins. And that bridge is made of all of Redcloak's self-justification for everything he's done in pursuit of his goals. He might be able to survive that bridge getting eaten at this point, but until he's willing to risk it I'm not sure if he'd be able to hear anything the Dark One tried to say.

[dancrilis]

Redcloak is a smart guy - it is entirely possible that given the opportunity he would ask the Dark One questions which the Dark One would prefer not to be asked.

But we don't know there is also the possibility that the Dark One doesn't actually exist, or that he in imprisoned somewhere and unable to act etc we just don't really have enough information to rule out anything 100% (we can likely rule out some things with a fair degree of certainty of course).

[Metastachydium]

Well for most of the comic it wasn't clear how much Thor was aware of what Durkon was caught up in and Durkon only recently became Thor's own agent for this matter.

For all we know, he might have been aware of Durkon being his most important cleric ever since… What? No Cure? In UD, he seems to imply he was waiting for a long time to have a chat, but he mostly just consistently ignored Durkon even as he was repeatedly pleading with him throughout the previous books. (Also, he never answered Communes before the one cast in Book 7, something he acknowledges himself.)


By contrast Redcloak has always worked at the behest of the Dark One which makes it weird he's allowed complete autonomy without having to report to his master. There's also the fact that during Thor and Durkon's talk Thor requested Durkon cast Commune more frequently assuring that he'll answer to give direction and answer any queries Durkon might have with regards to the task at hand. When the Dark One had the possibility to pass a message to Redcloak through Jirix he did not take it to make the same request, implying that he seems fine with the way Redcloak currently operates even though that seemingly squanders the obvious tactical advantages that having a god in your corner provides.

You seem to be forgetting that Big Purple routinely does more than that for his high priests: he literally breaks all the god rules by giving them the infodump that comes with donning the Mantle. And from SoD, we learn that he likely updates the infodump as the Plan continues, as it imparts with its Bearer things Big Purple learned after creating the Mantle.


Hel was able to delay the Order by setting up the giant ambush and then notify Durkon* of their ETA.

That was some bargain basement godhood (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1080.html) there, I tell ya. Also, Greg was specifically created by Hel, with knowledge (possibly including "call me whenever") in his mind, and we don't know they ever talked without Greg initiating the contact, so it hardly proves much in itself.


It's almost guaranteed that TDO could trivially see through Serini's anti-scrying measures (the cloud realm allows any random caster to punch through Cloister so a god shouldn't have any issue) meaning that instead of wasting time exploring each dungeon Redcloak could have cast Commune once and be told where the Rift exactly is, bypassing Kraagor's Gauntlet entirely.

Well, there are "divination spells that can request limited advice, but they have some restrictions. Primary of which is that [he] can't provide information that he himself doesn't know (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html)." (Whether Redcloak is correct in this belief or not is also irrelevant, so long as this conviction keeps him from casting said spells which seems to be the case.)


And finally TDO's silence is shown by contrasting it with Thor's more open communication during the two priests' negotiation. Hell, we know that even back before Durkon was aware of the Rifts Thor was willing to have a chat with him when he prepared spells.

Let's not get into the canonicity of Thor and Surtr dueling/rampaging in the Mortal Realm with some apparent regularity, shall we? Taking some of the early installment weirdness at face value raises many more questions than it answers. That scene is a big example of that, and it paints Thor in a very unflattering light.


By contrast, the narrative pointed out several times the fact that Red never actually had a talk with his boss, so it feels like something's going on.

Again, despite that, Redcloak knew much more about the Gatelore than the vast, vast majority of mortals (all excluding the Gates' guardians, in fact) because his god told him stuff, through the Mantle in lieu of soaking his feet and ignoring calls, so there's that. Plus, like, he sent a message to Redcloak at his earliest opportunity (the first time that we know of when he raised a fellow goblinoid (cleric?)), amounting to "carry on as before, this is still important; but don't angst over it, I'm generally pleased with your progress."

[hroþila]

Let's not get into the canonicity of Thor and Surtr dueling/rampaging in the Mortal Realm with some apparent regularity, shall we? Taking some of the early installment weirdness at face value raises many more questions than it answers. That scene is a big example of that, and it paints Thor in a very unflattering light.
My take on the idea of "early installment weirdness" is that it's a COPE-OUT for COWARDS. It was shown on-panel, it hasn't been retconned, we can't just wish it away, we just need to DARE come up with explanations that fit the canon. DARE to DREAM

(For example, there's no indication that it happened on the same planet as the main story. Clearly it's some other planet, maybe a sort of test server where the gods try out ideas for future worlds)

[Tzardok]

Or it is a town located on the Outer Planes. At least in the canon Great Wheel, mortals (and some non-mortals) do build settlements on other planes. Maybe they are a "mortal" outsider race, like sylphes.

[Metastachydium]

My take on the idea of "early installment weirdness" is that it's a COPE-OUT for COWARDS. It was shown on-panel, it hasn't been retconned, we can't just wish it away, we just need to DARE come up with explanations that fit the canon. DARE to DREAM

(For example, there's no indication that it happened on the same planet as the main story. Clearly it's some other planet, maybe a sort of test server where the gods try out ideas for future worlds)

Okay. So every time Durkon prays for spells, he and Thor chat. Or could chat. Thor just chooses never to do so, even just to suggest asking for a Commune, once it becomes clear that his cleric he watches closely and chats with knows about the Gates, their exact function and importance because reasons. Should we just rename the thread Why Doesn't Thor Talk to Durkon, then?


Or it is a town located on the Outer Planes. At least in the canon Great Wheel, mortals (and some non-mortals) do build settlements on other planes.

That would be problematic for reasons oft discussed (what happens to mortals chilling on the 'Planes when words get destroyed?).


Maybe they are a "mortal" outsider race, like sylphes.

"Hey, has anyone out here happened to see my village sylphs? White hair, pointy ears? Inexplicably flightless? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html)"

[PBlades]

I'm thinking that it might be a block on Redcloak's side of things, not the Dark One's. TDO sent Jirix back with a message for Redcloak, which means he's not unwilling to communicate. And given how few goblinoids actually return from the afterlife, it might have been his first chance in a while to do so. The thing is, I do believe that Redcloak wants to speak with the Dark One. But, to borrow some metaphors from Oona, I think he only wants to meet with him in the fancy cottage in Right-All-Along. Because if he meets him anywhere else, someone could unleash the dolphins. And that bridge is made of all of Redcloak's self-justification for everything he's done in pursuit of his goals. He might be able to survive that bridge getting eaten at this point, but until he's willing to risk it I'm not sure if he'd be able to hear anything the Dark One tried to say.

That's an interesting thought. TDO and Redcloak has an unusual relationship (like Hel) in that TDO would not and could not threaten Red with losing his power or his plans would be set back tremendously. I don't strictly recall what the Redcloak, the artifact, does other than confer an unaging immortality and be the vestment of the high priest, but I don't believe putting it on, say, Jirix, would give Jirix Redcloak's accumulated XP or anything.


Redcloak is a smart guy - it is entirely possible that given the opportunity he would ask the Dark One questions which the Dark One would prefer not to be asked.

Hmmm. From the way the story is setup I'd have thought TDO would be far more reasonable than Red.

[Satohika]

There's another thing that's been bugging me about the Dark One. He alone out of a googolplex of world attempts ascended entirely on his own (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html), and attained a brand new quiddity as a result. The gods don't appear to know why (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) - which is why it's so imperative that they get TDO's help in this world - and Redcloak's story in SoD doesn't explain why either. But I feel like that secret is something everybody should be doing everything in their power to discover. And what if he does know?

There is a theory that say he is created by/from Snarl itself, that's why he had unusual goblinoid features such as high class levels and violet skin.