Looking for direct Enhancement Bonuses to "Armor Class"

[Gruftzwerg]

Due to a recent reddit question I stumbled upon this shield special ability:



A shield with this special ability is ringed by a series of scales that lock into a mesh when brought in contact with an ally's shield that possesses the same ability. The wielder of a paired shield gains a +1 enhancement bonus to Armor Class for every adjacent ally also wielding a paired shield.

Normally, defensive enhancement bonuses target either your shield or your armor.

But "paired" targets your "Armor Class" directly (and thus stacks with the others).

Q: What other stuff gives a direct "enhancement bonus to AC"?

IIRC, I have stumbled upon this phenomena elsewhere, but I can't remember where...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The thicken skin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/thickenSkin.htm) psionic power does this.


Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body, providing a +1 enhancement bonus to your Armor Class.

It can then be augmented for larger amounts.

[animewatcha]

Depending upon DM you might be able to 'Reinforce' the shield. increasing base ac bonus by 1.

[Paragon]

The saint template does that iirc

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The saint template does that iircThat's an insight bonus.

[Gruftzwerg]

The thicken skin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/thickenSkin.htm) psionic power does this.


It can then be augmented for larger amounts.

Nice, wasn't aware of that one.



Depending upon DM you might be able to 'Reinforce' the shield. increasing base ac bonus by 1.

Sorry but I'm sole looking for enhancement bonuses directly to AC and not to "armor" or "shields".

__________________________________________________ ___________

Now I remembered where I did see it the last time.. ^^


A defender weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword's enhancement bonus to his AC as a special bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

We recently had a discussion regarding the "defending" special ability. It also directly affects/targets "AC" and explains that it is a special bonus that stacks with all others. Imho "others" is referring to "armor" and "shield" enhancements, since those are generally defined:


Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses).

...

Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses.


So, are there any other examples where something gives a direct enhancement bonus to Armor Class?

[Chronos]

I don't think a Defending weapon applies an enhancement bonus to AC; I think it's applied as a typeless bonus (that's the most reasonable interpretation, I think, of "a special bonus that stacks with all others"). In particular, if you had both the Thicken Skin power and a defending sword, they'd stack, but the pairing bonus from a pairing shield wouldn't stack with Thicken Skin.

[icefractal]

"special bonus that stacks with all others" is such a weird way to phrase that. Especially because a typeless bonus would have achieved the same thing, minus arguably stacking with other Defending weapons (which I don't think was actually a goal).

[Darg]

"special bonus that stacks with all others" is such a weird way to phrase that. Especially because a typeless bonus would have achieved the same thing, minus arguably stacking with other Defending weapons (which I don't think was actually a goal).

Because it's no longer an enhancement bonus. The rules don't use the word "typeless." Instead they use "unnamed bonus." Technically, multiple defending weapons shouldn't stack in the first place considering it comes from the same source. Haste's dodge bonus doesn't stack despite the specific allowance of dodge bonuses stacking. The combining magical effects rules have precedence.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Because it's no longer an enhancement bonus. The rules don't use the word "typeless." Instead they use "unnamed bonus." Technically, multiple defending weapons shouldn't stack in the first place considering it comes from the same source. Haste's dodge bonus doesn't stack despite the specific allowance of dodge bonuses stacking. The combining magical effects rules have precedence.Nope. Those are the general rules. The specific rules are that defending weapons stack with everything, and specific trumps general.

[Darg]

Nope. Those are the general rules. The specific rules are that defending weapons stack with everything, and specific trumps general.

Good to know that bane, crushing despair, and bestow curse stacks with themselves regardless of the rule that effects don't stack from the same source.

[Gruftzwerg]

I picked these quotes for simplicities sake. I did read all the responses and arguments.


I don't think a Defending weapon applies an enhancement bonus to AC; I think it's applied as a typeless bonus (that's the most reasonable interpretation, I think, of "a special bonus that stacks with all others"). In particular, if you had both the Thicken Skin power and a defending sword, they'd stack, but the pairing bonus from a pairing shield wouldn't stack with Thicken Skin.

But that is what the ability explicitly says: "enhancement bonus to his AC"

And I don't think you get to stack it with itself (see below)




"special bonus that stacks with all others" is such a weird way to phrase that. Especially because a typeless bonus would have achieved the same thing, minus arguably stacking with other Defending weapons (which I don't think was actually a goal).

yeah, it's really weird and kind irritating. But imho...

Others != Itself

As said initially, "defensive enhancement bonuses" are normally applied to either "armor" or "shield" and not "directly to your AC". Imho, that is what "special bonus that stacks with all others" is referring to.



___________________________

While I appreciate the rule discussion (and you are free to continue), I would still like to ask again:

Do we have other examples of "enhancement bonuses (directly) to AC" ?

[Crake]

Nope. Those are the general rules. The specific rules are that defending weapons stack with everything, and specific trumps general.

For defending to overcome the “same source doesnt stack” rule, it would need to specifically say it stacks with itself, otherwise, just saying it stacks with everything simply means that it stacks with everything ELSE. Same source rule is the more specific rule here.


Good to know that bane, crushing despair, and bestow curse stacks with themselves regardless of the rule that effects don't stack from the same source.

I don’t know about the others, but I consider each different bane enchantment to be its own effect, so they would stack. But if you had a bow and an arrow with the same bane enchantment, they wouldnt stack.

Edit: oh, and for bestow curse, it would come under same spell, different effect. Like, you couldn’t stack the same penalty multiple times, but you could apply different effects, because those arent stacking, they’re horizontal effects, each affecting their own thing.

[Biggus]

For defending to overcome the “same source doesnt stack” rule, it would need to specifically say it stacks with itself, otherwise, just saying it stacks with everything simply means that it stacks with everything ELSE. Same source rule is the more specific rule here.

Also, the wording is "stacks with all others"; stacking with other bonuses is not the same thing as stacking with itself.

[Darg]

For defending to overcome the “same source doesnt stack” rule, it would need to specifically say it stacks with itself, otherwise, just saying it stacks with everything simply means that it stacks with everything ELSE. Same source rule is the more specific rule here.



I don’t know about the others, but I consider each different bane enchantment to be its own effect, so they would stack. But if you had a bow and an arrow with the same bane enchantment, they wouldnt stack.

Edit: oh, and for bestow curse, it would come under same spell, different effect. Like, you couldn’t stack the same penalty multiple times, but you could apply different effects, because those arent stacking, they’re horizontal effects, each affecting their own thing.

The spell bane. The spells I mentioned are unnamed penalties so would stack with everything.

[Crake]

The spell bane. The spells I mentioned are unnamed penalties so would stack with everything.

Ah okay, that makes more sense.

[Gruftzwerg]

Good to know that bane, crushing despair, and bestow curse stacks with themselves regardless of the rule that effects don't stack from the same source.


The spell bane. The spells I mentioned are unnamed penalties so would stack with everything.

With everything else (or with each other), but they can't stack with themselves.


Combining Magical Effects

Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient.

Same Spell != Other Spell

You can't stack the same spell twice unless the specific spell's text calls it out.

[Darg]

With everything else (or with each other), but they can't stack with themselves.



Same Spell != Other Spell

You can't stack the same spell twice unless the specific spell's text calls it out.

Spell or effect. Which means a character can't benefit from multiple defending weapons at once.

[Gruftzwerg]

Spell or effect. Which means a character can't benefit from multiple defending weapons at once.

Agreed.

Now lets get back to topic^^





Do we have any other examples of direct "enhancement bonuses to AC"?

(I still think we are missing out stuff here. But I can't recall what it is...)

[loky1109]

Do we have any other examples of direct "enhancement bonuses to AC"?

(I still think we are missing out stuff here. But I can't recall what it is...)

I think artificer could manage something.