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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Moving the "big combat feats" into the classes as features...what levels?



PhoenixPhyre
2023-03-14, 04:00 PM
In this particular case, assume that PAM, GWM, SS, CBE, and DW are not available (as the point is to move a chunk of the power directly into the classes in more coordinated forms).

Values in () like (X) are variables to be decided on a per-feature basis (so setting (X) = 5 in one feature doesn't change it for any other feature).

Yes, the omission of the paladin from this list is intentional. They're fine as is. At least for now.

V2 changelog:
- Added some text to allow fighters to pick a second choice later. Fighters should be more versatile.
- Changed rangers from "pick one" to "get both". The idea is that fighters get to pick and choose, everyone else is locked in to a couple narrower styles (really one melee and one ranged).

Barbarian
Unchained Fury
Starting at level (X) your primal fury affects your attacks more strongly even when you are not raging. You gain the following benefits:
- When you make a weapon attack and have advantage on the roll, you can choose to roll normally instead. If you do so, you score a critical hit on a (N)+.
- Once per turn when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can choose to carry some of the damage over to creature of your size or smaller within 5’ of them and within your reach. That creature takes damage equal to the unmodified weapon dice roll. Eg. you dealt 2d6 + 5 slashing damage to the original target, rolling 7 on the 2d6. The other target would take 7 slashing damage.

Throw Anything
Starting at level (Y), when you make a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, you can attack out to the long range of the weapon without suffering disadvantage. Additionally, the weapon die of your thrown weapons increases by one die (ie 1d6 -> 2d6).

Fighter
Weapon Specialization
At level (X), your mastery of one type of weapon has increased to new heights. Choose one of the benefits below. It applies with weapons of the designated type. (v2: add "At level (Y > X) you can pick another specialization of your choice").
- When you make an attack with a heavy weapon, you can choose to take a penalty equal to your proficiency bonus to the attack roll. If you do and still hit, you deal additional damage equal to twice your proficiency bonus.
- Once between any two of your turns while you are wielding a spear, pike, glaive, or halberd in two hands and a creature enters or moves 5’ or more within your reach, you can make a special opportunity attack with the weapon. This does not consume your reaction.
- You do not suffer disadvantage when making a ranged attack with an enemy within 5’ of you. Additionally, when you make a ranged weapon attack you can choose to take a penalty equal to your proficiency bonus to the attack roll. If you do and still hit, you deal additional damage equal to twice your proficiency bonus.
- While you are wielding light weapons in each hand, the number of attacks you can make when you take the Attack action on your turn increases by 1. At least one of these attacks must be made with each weapon. The first time you hit the same creature with attacks from both weapons in the same turn, the target takes an additional (Z) damage.
- While wielding a shield, all allies gain ¾ cover from you instead of the normal ½ cover. If they succeed on a Dexterity saving throw against an effect that deals half damage on a success while you are providing them cover, they have resistance to the damage as well.

Ranger
Advanced Fighting Style
At level (X) you gain your choice of (edit v2: replace the choice with "the".) benefits below.
- You do not suffer disadvantage when making a ranged attack with an enemy within 5’ of you. Additionally, when you make a ranged weapon attack you can choose to take a penalty equal to your proficiency bonus to the attack roll. If you do and still hit, you deal additional damage equal to twice your proficiency bonus. If the enemy is one of your Favored Foes or you have hunter’s mark on the target, you do not suffer a penalty to hit.
- While you are wielding light weapons in each hand, the number of attacks you can make when you take the Attack action on your turn increases by 1. At least one of these attacks must be made with each weapon. The first time you hit the same creature with attacks from both weapons in the same turn, the target takes an additional (Y) damage. The additional damage increases by (Z) if the target is one of your Favored Foes.

Rogue
Improved Finesse
At level (X) you gain the benefits listed below.
- When you attack While you are wielding light weapons in each hand, the number of attacks you can make when you take the Attack action on your turn increases by 1. At least one of these attacks must be made with each weapon. If you hit the same creature with attacks from both weapons they cannot use their reaction until the start of their next turn.
- While wielding a hand crossbow you no longer need a free hand to reload it. Additionally, you can use it as if it was a light melee weapon for the purposes of two-weapon fighting. It acts as a light finesse melee weapon with a 1d4 bludgeoning damage in addition to its normal ranged properties.[1]

[1] Intent–you can pistol whip someone with it in melee just like shooting it at someone as well as wield two of them guns akimbo style. Or sword and crossbow.

PhoenixPhyre
2023-03-14, 07:04 PM
Doing some numerical work on the Barbarian one:

setting X = 6 (starting at 6th level) and N = 10 (critting on a 10+) and assuming the additional splash damage does not proc ever (and that the barbarian always is using reckless and rage), the damage profile is similar to that of a GWM (at 4th) barbarian (same starting stats, GWM takes a feat but Experimental doesn't), with an average of 1.77 RED[1] for the experimental and 1.73 for the GWM. The peaks are different--the Experimental is stronger past level 10 and basically stable from level 7 on, while the GWM is stronger from 4-8 (they're basically identical at 9) and but falling off past level 11.

Assumptions:
- In both cases, they start with a 16 prime stat and increase STR at every opportunity except GWM delays by taking feat at level 4.
- In both cases, they're raging 100% of the time and using reckless 100% of the time
- The Experimental never has advantage from reckless, always using it to proc his ability. The GWM always has it.
- Neither one activates the cleave feature of their respective abilities (for modeling simplicity, really).

So it looks like X = 6 and N = 10 is approximately correct for that as a GWM replacement.

[1] a simple level-dependent scaling factor derived from calculating the theoretical, accuracy-adjusted damage dealt by a rogue wielding a shortbow who always procs sneak attack on hit but never has advantage. Here it's entirely being used for ease of comparison. The trends in raw, accuracy-adjusted damage are similar, with GWM jumping a lot at levels 4 and 5 but then basically leveling off with only slight improvements until 20, and the Experimental rising in a nice stair-step pattern every couple levels steadily. I can include graphs if anyone cares.

animorte
2023-03-14, 07:52 PM
What levels? Are you looking specifically at class progression as an overall standard or formatting your concept as classes exist currently?

If it's the former, I developed a standard class progression that looks wonderful (in my personal opinion).


1:
2: subclass
3:
4: ASI
5:
6: subclass
7:
8: ASI
9:
10: subclass
11:
12: ASI
13:
14: subclass
15:
16: ASI
17:
18: subclass capstone (perhaps?)
19: ASI
20:

I like how evenly it spreads out (except that weird level 19 ASI). It perfectly lines up for spell progression and leaves plenty of room for martials to utilize each odd level with class features.

PhoenixPhyre
2023-03-14, 07:56 PM
What levels? Are you looking specifically at class progression as an overall standard or formatting your concept as classes exist currently?

If it's the former, I developed a standard class progression that looks wonderful (in my personal opinion).


1:
2: subclass
3:
4: ASI
5:
6: subclass
7:
8: ASI
9:
10: subclass
11:
12: ASI
13:
14: subclass
15:
16: ASI
17:
18: subclass capstone (perhaps?)
19: ASI
20:

I like how evenly it spreads out (except that weird level 19 ASI). It perfectly lines up for spell progression and leaves plenty of room for martials to utilize each odd level with class features.


In this case, I'm specifically looking at the existing classes. These would be just new class features. And what level is exactly the question at hand.

animorte
2023-03-14, 08:28 PM
In this case, I'm specifically looking at the existing classes. These would be just new class features. And what level is exactly the question at hand.
In that case, I would say to model it after the Paladin's progression. As you said, it's fine as it is. May be a good starting point.

PhoenixPhyre
2023-03-14, 08:57 PM
In that case, I would say to model it after the Paladin's progression. As you said, it's fine as it is. May be a good starting point.

I'm confused. One of us is not understanding the other. There's no "Paladin progression" to match.

The question is very specifically "At what level (per class) should each of the listed features be given to the existing classes for which they're listed". And secondarily, if there's a placeholder (X), (Y), (Z), (N) in there, what should it be.

The rest of the class remains exactly as it is in the PHB. There's no retooling (in this post) of any of the rest of the feature progression. These are just new features being dropped into the existing classes at (as of yet) not determined levels.

I think for barbarian and Unchained Fury specifically, I'm ok with 6th level and critting on a (natural) 10+. The numbers work out fairly well. But that only answers for that one class and feature.

animorte
2023-03-14, 09:11 PM
I'm confused. One of us is not understanding the other. There's no "Paladin progression" to match.

The question is very specifically "At what level (per class) should each of the listed features be given to the existing classes for which they're listed". And secondarily, if there's a placeholder (X), (Y), (Z), (N) in there, what should it be.
That's my fault for not really clarifying. What I'm trying to say is closer to... Let's look at the Paladin's progression and power-spikes. Compare each point with each of the other classes and determine how much weaker (or stronger, if relevant) that particular level is comparatively.

For example, looking at level 2 for Fighter and Paladin. The former has action surge, while the latter gains divine smite and spell-casting (fighter already got fighting style). Is Paladin 2 significantly stronger? Perhaps not, in this example, but if it were, maybe that would be the level to add the bump.

I hope I'm helping! :smallsmile:

stoutstien
2023-03-16, 06:40 AM
Id say level 5 to give extra attack some flex and to give it a chance to make PC another way to dial in the flavor of a hero.

PhoenixPhyre
2023-03-16, 02:46 PM
Id say level 5 to give extra attack some flex and to give it a chance to make PC another way to dial in the flavor of a hero.

Honest question--are there builds that often go 5+ levels into multiple martials? I'm trying to figure out whether I'd need to worry about (e.g.) fighter 5/barbarian 5 being better than fighter 10 because of double-dipping on these sorts of things.

My gut is "no, it's not something that needs worrying about at 5+ levels deep". I mean sorcadins frequently go 6+ into paladin, but the rest is in sorcerer. And neither side benefits from this change. And since Extra Attack itself doesn't stack, I don't see many martials dipping 5+ into another martial.

---------

Second honest question--
do any of the sub-options (especially for fighters) seem ludicrously imbalanced vs the others?

Edit: Made some changes to the OP, listed with V2 markers. Added a changelog.

stoutstien
2023-03-16, 04:58 PM
Honest question--are there builds that often go 5+ levels into multiple martials? I'm trying to figure out whether I'd need to worry about (e.g.) fighter 5/barbarian 5 being better than fighter 10 because of double-dipping on these sorts of things.

My gut is "no, it's not something that needs worrying about at 5+ levels deep". I mean sorcadins frequently go 6+ into paladin, but the rest is in sorcerer. And neither side benefits from this change. And since Extra Attack itself doesn't stack, I don't see many martials dipping 5+ into another martial.

---------

Second honest question--
do any of the sub-options (especially for fighters) seem ludicrously imbalanced vs the others?

Edit: Made some changes to the OP, listed with V2 markers. Added a changelog.

I can't see anything glaring regarding multiclassing that isn't already the case. I'd probably make the barbarian option scale with the class

I don't see anything all that out of line for fighter. Some work better for different subclasses but nothing set off any bells.

PhoenixPhyre
2023-03-16, 06:16 PM
I can't see anything glaring regarding multiclassing that isn't already the case. I'd probably make the barbarian option scale with the class

I don't see anything all that out of line for fighter. Some work better for different subclasses but nothing set off any bells.

The barbarian one does scale (slightly) with Brutal Critical. Because when you're critting on a 10+, those extra dice really add up. And the cleave damage increases similarly--if you crit, the (scaling) crit damage is what transfers.

But yeah, that's fairly small scaling.

stoutstien
2023-03-16, 07:32 PM
The barbarian one does scale (slightly) with Brutal Critical. Because when you're critting on a 10+, those extra dice really add up. And the cleave damage increases similarly--if you crit, the (scaling) crit damage is what transfers.

But yeah, that's fairly small scaling.

Fair it does scale but lacks.. something. The active pact of trading advantage for normal attacks (something I use for twf myself) is probably the best part because it adds a layer on top of the rage/RA -Yes/no toggle mini game but the rest is passive.
Seems like a good opportunity to add something else to interact with that isn't tied to rage. Something grapple/shove based maybe or a way to feel disruptive.
The barbarian feels to nailed down for the lack of a better term.

PhoenixPhyre
2023-03-16, 08:02 PM
Fair it does scale but lacks.. something. The active pact of trading advantage for normal attacks (something I use for twf myself) is probably the best part because it adds a layer on top of the rage/RA -Yes/no toggle mini game but the rest is passive.
Seems like a good opportunity to add something else to interact with that isn't tied to rage. Something grapple/shove based maybe or a way to feel disruptive.
The barbarian feels to nailed down for the lack of a better term.

Since this is part of a "turn feats at least partially into free class features" kick...maybe give a modified chunk of Grappler?

Edit: something like

Powerful Grappler
Starting at level 6, you can pin your opponents better than most. When you successfully grapple a creature, you can choose to pin it as a bonus action taken immediately after the grapple. If you do, the creature is restrained by you as long as it doesn't break free and you spend a bonus action on your turn to maintain the pin.

In addition, you can grapple and pin (as well as shove) creatures up to two sizes larger instead of just one.

stoutstien
2023-03-17, 05:35 AM
Since this is part of a "turn feats at least partially into free class features" kick...maybe give a modified chunk of Grappler?

Edit: something like

Powerful Grappler
Starting at level 6, you can pin your opponents better than most. When you successfully grapple a creature, you can choose to pin it as a bonus action taken immediately after the grapple. If you do, the creature is restrained by you as long as it doesn't break free and you spend a bonus action on your turn to maintain the pin.

In addition, you can grapple and pin (as well as shove) creatures up to two sizes larger instead of just one.

Roll it into throw anything? Like they are so powerful they can throw anything abd if they get a hold of someone that's chuckable they're fair game.

LibraryOgre
2023-03-17, 11:28 AM
You know, it would be somewhat interesting to replace the "fighting styles" with the big combat feats. You don't get to reroll some damage dice, you get Great Weapon Fighting.

stoutstien
2023-03-17, 12:28 PM
You know, it would be somewhat interesting to replace the "fighting styles" with the big combat feats. You don't get to reroll some damage dice, you get Great Weapon Fighting.
I think there's room to develop both especially when you're talking about barbarians, fighters and rogues.

Personally I want fighting styles to be weapon agnostic. Individual styles shouldn't be tied to a weapon as much as a goal and mindset.

PhoenixPhyre
2023-03-17, 01:55 PM
I think there's room to develop both especially when you're talking about barbarians, fighters and rogues.

Personally I want fighting styles to be weapon agnostic. Individual styles shouldn't be tied to a weapon as much as a goal and mindset.

I agree. And posted a thread about it before I saw this :)