Reliable "ranged" sneak attack

[Anthrowhale]

(Editing to summarize the thread, thanks to all who commented.)

The goal here is reliable ranged attacks doing significant damage as early as possible. Reliable here is:
(a) usable for many rounds
(b) works over many levels
(c) uses touch AC to avoid the AC rat-race.
(d) Does damage which reliably scales with average hp of monsters.

Reliable sneak attack at "range" requires 4 things.


A way to penetrate immunity to sneak attack. The big one here is undead which are very common, but there are a few others like golem, plant, elemental, ooze. The Lightbringer Rogue ACF gives a way to penetrate immunity given the flank condition. There's also crystal augmentations for weapons, and the Grave/Golem/Vine strike line of spells.
A way to trigger sneak attack. Either deny dex bonus or flank. Double Team with a mount+rider is a decent approach to enable flanking within threatening range. Despana school does similar with you and a summoned monster. Blink+Seeking, Greater Invisibility, Greater Blink, or Woodland Archer + Greater Manyshot + hide in plain sight + darkstalker provide means to deny dex round after round.
A way to do a touch attack (to avoid the AC rat race). Dissolving Spittle (the soulmeld), spells, and blue dragon lineage provide access at level 1. The Dark Whispers ritual provides access when you can afford it although it's only 10'. Pyrokineticist provides access at ECL6. Bloodstorm Blade + Poison Ring provides access at ECL 7.
A way to use iteratives (since sneak attack alone doesn't keep up with the hit point rat race). Spells can't apply sneak attack multiple times per RC page 136 and iterative sneak attack only applies during full-round actions as per the RC volley rules.

(4) limits (3) to Bloodstorm Blade + Poison Ring or Pyrokineticist. Pyrokineticist requires the deny-dex track of (2) while Bloodstorm Blade works on the flank track of (2) since it counts as a melee attack.

The deny-dex track seems to be most easily done with Greater invisibility which either requires casting a spell at the beginning of combat (boo) or a method for persisting.

The flank track induces three requirements: reach, geometry with an ally, and melee attack. Bloodstorm Blade (uniquely) makes a ranged attack count as melee. Geometry with an ally can be softened via Despana School or Double Team. Of these, Double Team is a lower tax. For reach, permanency enlarge person + a Kusari-gama in the off hand is the easiest. This can potentially be further enhanced to 30' via reach extending feats although the 2-feat tax is difficult.


As a baseline, ranged touch attacks with physical weapons are possible via Master Thrower 5 at ECL 10. Other approaches come online earlier

Lightbringer Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 2

Feats:
1. Craven
3. Point Blank Shot
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
6. Double Team

Weapons:
Kusarigama (one-handed reach weapon in DMG)
Poison Ring (Dragon Compendium simple light weapon that uses touch attacks.)

Purchased Spell:
Permanency Enlarge Person at a high caster level.

The basic strategy is:
1) [No action] You and a buddy both are within 20' of an opponent. Since the opponent is threatened by the Kusarigama, Double Team triggers the flanked condition regardless of geometry.
2) [No action] On your turn, expend an Iron Heart Strike to add the returning ability to all thrown weapons using Bloodstorm Blade's Returning Attacks.
3) [Swift action] Trigger Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw so that all thrown attacks count as melee attacks.
4) [Standard action] Throw the Poison Ring at the threatened opponent with the Bloodstorm Blade's Throw Anything feat. Attack bonus 5+Str (6(BAB)+Str-2(range)+1(PBS)) as a touch attack. Damage is ~15+Str (1(base)+7(Craven)+2d6(sneak)+Str) or ~11.5 vs. the sneak attack immune due to the Lightbringer Rogue ACF.
5) [Move action] your choice

At ECL 9 you can pick up full iteratives via Bloodstorm Blade's Lightning Ricochet and no longer need expend an Iron Heart Strike each round. The effect might be something like Naru in Prey.


There were some concerns expressed around this one related to Poison Ring.

Do poison rings only deliver a 1-point touch attack when there is poison in the reservoir? "logic" suggests no given the damage delivery is a property of the weapon rather than the poison, but it does not explicitly state this.

Everyone agrees that the poison ring is an illogical weapon since it somehow bypasses armor that much more impressive weapons do not.


Another approach uses (Sonic) Lash.

<LA+0 fey> Psychic Rogue 1/Martial Wizard 3/Targeteer Fighter 1/(Sonic variant) Pyromancer 1/Unseen Seer <n>

Feats:
1. Point Blank Shot
Wizard 1: Rapid Shot
3. Craven
Fighter 1: Arrow Swarm
6. Assume Supernatural Ability[Pixie, Greater Invisibility]

The idea is to Alter Self[Pixie] to make yourself Greater Invisible, and then use iteratives with the sonic lash to deal out substantial damage. Unseen Seer allows you to pick up Grave Strike for SA immunity penetration. A drawback of this approach is that True Seeing becomes common at higher levels.


A third approach uses alchemicals

<LA+0 fey> Martial Wizard 3/Rogue 1/Targeteer Fighter 1/Unseen Seer <n>

Feats:
1. Point Blank Shot
Wizard 1: Rapid Shot
3. Assume Supernatural Ability[Pixie, Greater Invisibility]
Fighter 1: Arrow Swarm
6. Craven
9. Quickdraw

Items:
Alchemical Fire (or variants)

Again Alter Self[Pixie] for Greater Invisible, and then use iteratives with sneak attacks to deal substantial damage.


The last approach uses Chain Eldritch blast with sneak attack.

Hengeyokai[Sparrow] Warlock 1/Spellthief 1/Warlock 3/Unseen Seer 10/Hellfire Warlock 3/Rogue 1/Sneak attack Fighter 1

With feats:
1. Blend Into Shadows
3. Craven

As a fine creature with a +6 dex bonus, you have a superior hide skill. Blend Into Shadows enables use as a swift action.

CR HP Damage Fraction Notes
1 12 3.5 29% 1d6 blast + Hide
2 21 7 33% +1d6 Sneak Attack
3 27 10 37% +Craven
4 48 14.5 30% +1d6 blast
5 56 15.5 28%
6 69 23.5 34% +1d6 blast +1d6 SA
7 87 24.5+12 42% +Eldritch Chain
8 96 29+14 45% +1d6 blast
9 131 33.5+16 38% +1d6 SA
10 137 38+19 42% +1d6 blast
11 164 39+19+19 47% +second Eldritch Chain
12 196 47+23+23 47% +1d6 blast +1d6 SA
13 196 48+24+24 49%
14 196 49+24+24 49%
15 225 57+28+28 50% +1d6 blast +1d6 SA
16 239 65+32+32+32 67% +3rd eldritch Chain + Hellfire Warlock 1
17 245 73+36+36+36 74% +Hellfire Warlock 2
18 302 84.5+42+42+42 70% +1d6 blast +Hellfire warlock 3
19 356 89+44+44+44 62% +1d6 SA
20 409 93.5+46+46+46 56% +1d6 SA

The biggest issue I see is that you don't always have a secondary target available and there is contention for the swift action when you need to both blend into shadows and use an <x> strike wand. The damage is also a little bit low around levels 4&5. It's tempting to push a level of sneak attack fighter into level 5 although that has ramifications for access to Eldritch Chain.

[Saintheart]

I am really reaching for Devil's Advocate style objections to pry holes in this beautiful work of elegance. This is lovely.

One objection in that spirit: does Throw Anything mean any melee weapon you have now becomes a 'thrown weapon' for the purpose of the rules, since that's what Bloodstorm Blade turns on?

'Thrown weapons' does have a definition:


Thrown Weapons
Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

So, question being whether 'thrown weapons' amounts to a closed category set by the first sentence. A parsimonious DM might object that Throw Anything's intent is to just allow you to chuck table legs at people and not take a -4 on the throw, it doesn't mean the table leg qualifies as a thrown weapon for the purposes of Bloodstorm Blade's abilities.

As said, this is a Devil's Advocate objection - I'd certainly allow the build you have above ... and take a good-natured Throw Anything (DMG) for when you brought it to my table :smallbiggrin::smallcool::smallbiggrin:



EDIT: Also, somewhat off topic, a small Awl Pike wielded in the off hand makes for an interesting adjunct to a Stormguard Warrior build, since all you want to do in the round before is forego AoOs, not actually hit with them.

[Maat Mons]

I seem to remember one of the sources snuck in some language about Reach weapons only giving their benefit if they're sized appropriately for the wielder. I can't seem to find it though.

Edit: I found it. It's on page 151 of Rules Compendium, under Inappropriately Sized Weapons. It might have originally appeared elsewhere, I'll post an update if I find an earlier source.

What do you do when the enemy is 10 feet away? The awl pike can only threaten someone 15 feet away, no closer. Nothing else you have threatens more than 5 feet away. Seems like there's a gap in your coverage.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I seem to remember one of the sources snuck in some language about Reach weapons only giving their benefit if they're sized appropriately for the wielder. I can't seem to find it though.

Edit: I found it. It's on page 151 of Rules Compendium, under Inappropriately Sized Weapons. It might have originally appeared elsewhere, I'll post an update if I find an earlier source. Lucky for those of us who don't own that, it's a completely pointless "correction" on the book's part.

(Honestly, the game seems to work much better and more logically without the RC, far as I can tell.)


What do you do when the enemy is 10 feet away? The awl pike can only threaten someone 15 feet away, no closer. Nothing else you have threatens more than 5 feet away. Seems like there's a gap in your coverage.That, however, is a much more poignant point.

[Anthrowhale]

I am really reaching for Devil's Advocate style objections to pry holes in this beautiful work of elegance. This is lovely.

Thanks :-)



So, question being whether 'thrown weapons' amounts to a closed category set by the first sentence.

This seems dysfunctional, since there are lots of other thrown weapons not introduced in core, like the Atlatl and the Annulat. Given the exception-based system, we have to allow a weapon to be thrown if it says it is thrown, rather than just limiting to the thrown weapons in core.

Throw Anything says: "You can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon." which implies that thrown weapons applies.



A parsimonious DM might object that Throw Anything's intent is to just allow you to chuck table legs at people and not take a -4 on the throw, it doesn't mean the table leg qualifies as a thrown weapon for the purposes of Bloodstorm Blade's abilities.

Bloodstorm Blade is explicit about this when granting the Throw Anything feat. "...you learn to throw swords as easily as others throw daggers".


As said, this is a Devil's Advocate objection - I'd certainly allow the build you have above ... and take a good-natured Throw Anything (DMG) for when you brought it to my table :smallbiggrin::smallcool::smallbiggrin:

It seems well deserved :-)



EDIT: Also, somewhat off topic, a small Awl Pike wielded in the off hand makes for an interesting adjunct to a Stormguard Warrior build, since all you want to do in the round before is forego AoOs, not actually hit with them.
That seems quite synergistic with the build stub since you are already picking up Combat Reflexes and Iron heart strikes.


I seem to remember one of the sources snuck in some language about Reach weapons only giving their benefit if they're sized appropriately for the wielder. I can't seem to find it though.

Edit: I found it. It's on page 151 of Rules Compendium, under Inappropriately Sized Weapons. It might have originally appeared elsewhere, I'll post an update if I find an earlier source.

Oh, that's unfortunate. The best alternative seems to be a Kusari-Gama, although that only gives a 10' reach. I have a vague memory of some other dragon magazine weapon which is Kusari-Gama like with more reach...


What do you do when the enemy is 10 feet away? The awl pike can only threaten someone 15 feet away, no closer. Nothing else you have threatens more than 5 feet away. Seems like there's a gap in your coverage.

Well, you could use a 5' step, although since you and an ally need to both threaten to trigger sneak attack the mechanics of success may also require playing with delay.

Edit: I was thinking of the Rope-dart/meteor hammer in Dragon #319, but it's a 2-handed weapon. The RC rules seems mechanistically funny though, since a halfling with a small awl pike has a 15' reach while a human with a small awl pike has a 5' reach.

[Chronos]

Does Double Team explicitly require "threatened", or just "within reach"? If the latter, then a whip would work.

But yeah, getting reach with a one-handed weapon seems to be something the designers deliberately made difficult.

[Gruftzwerg]

I am really reaching for Devil's Advocate style objections to pry holes in this beautiful work of elegance. This is lovely.

One objection in that spirit: does Throw Anything mean any melee weapon you have now becomes a 'thrown weapon' for the purpose of the rules, since that's what Bloodstorm Blade turns on?

Yes, BB or better said Throw Anything allows you to:

You can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon. The range increment of weapons used in conjunction with this feat is 10 feet.
The sole requirements are:
1. melee weapon
2. proficiency


'Thrown weapons' does have a definition:



So, question being whether 'thrown weapons' amounts to a closed category set by the first sentence. A parsimonious DM might object that Throw Anything's intent is to just allow you to chuck table legs at people and not take a -4 on the throw, it doesn't mean the table leg qualifies as a thrown weapon for the purposes of Bloodstorm Blade's abilities.

As said, this is a Devil's Advocate objection - I'd certainly allow the build you have above ... and take a good-natured Throw Anything (DMG) for when you brought it to my table :smallbiggrin::smallcool::smallbiggrin:

A normal case of Specific Trumps General. The feat does allow you to do things that you normally couldn't do. Nothing new.

As long as it is a melee weapon and you are proficient everything is fine.
Unless we talk about Improvised Weapon (which are objects and not weapons) I don't see any problem here.

Improvised Weapons

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use...

[Darg]

The most reliable ways I know to get ranged sneak attacks are to snipe, or use some other way to remain unseen by your target. If you don't mind teamwork (I know, such a travesty to sacrifice to boost your allies), the Surprising Riposte feat from DotU is a really good option

[ciopo]

Minor nitpick: double team requires the buddy to also have double team. This is relatively nontrivial

[Anthrowhale]

Does Double Team explicitly require "threatened", or just "within reach"? If the latter, then a whip would work.

Threatened.


But yeah, getting reach with a one-handed weapon seems to be something the designers deliberately made difficult.
The Kusari-Gama seems to do it without any rules bending, so we can just pay for Permanency Enlarger Person at caster level 20 (~2700gp) to get reach 20' which is not easily dispelled. That's better than the Awl Pike was giving us anyways.


The most reliable ways I know to get ranged sneak attacks are to snipe, or use some other way to remain unseen by your target. If you don't mind teamwork (I know, such a travesty to sacrifice to boost your allies), the Surprising Riposte feat from DotU is a really good option

That does look generally effective.

Part of the trick here is getting touch attacks at range since those hit much more controllably. Throw Anything + Poison Ring could work even from low levels. Bloodstorm Blade 2 gives it a returning ability which seems very handy (and Bloodstorm Blade 4 gives the only full attack return in the game that I'm aware of).


Minor nitpick: double team requires the buddy to also have double team. This is relatively nontrivial
It does require cooperation and is most obviously viable for mount+rider.

[RNightstalker]

Greater Blink

[Anthrowhale]

Greater Blink

Yeah, that's a super-handy spell.

As an L5 spell, it requires at least ECL9, and typically more if you want to actually be able to deliver sneak attack. The fact that you have to spend an action casting it is also a drag. And, of course, it doesn't provide a means to apply touch attacks.

Something like Illumian Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 4/Sacred Exorcist 1 by ECL 11? That would allow you to persist Greater Blink. Sneak attack ranged touch attacks might be a bit limited, but perhaps something can be done with spells. It's still coming online 4 levels later.

[ericgrau]

I'll just add that there are a whole slew of spells from levels 1-4 that are good on their on without sneak attack, and also grant ranged full attack sneak attack from level 1. One solution might be to be a rogue who talks to the mage, or a mage who talks to the rogue. Furthermore if the rogue goes early he still gets full attack sneak attack from beating the initiative of monsters.

[Anthrowhale]

I'll just add that there are a whole slew of spells from levels 1-4 that are good on their on without sneak attack, and also grant ranged full attack sneak attack from level 1.

I was curious, so I looked into this.

Dealing damage with a full round action is desirable for the Rules Compendium volley rule. Doing this with a Spontaneous (so you can metamagic to a full round action) Cleric is good because of the Sacred Outlaw feat. With the spell domain, they could access Greater Blink. Arcane Casters can access Unseen Seer effectively, and a wizard can work via Uncanny Forethought while a Sorcerer can metamagic. The Halfling Rogue ACF is also nice for giving an extra d6 of sneak attack.

Interesting Options are:
Lantern Light (Cleric 1/Wizard 1) 1d6 with <level/2> rays up to attack/round.
Snilloc's Snowball (Wizard 1) 1d6+5 cold up to 5 up to attack/round.

Cloud of Knives (Cleric 2/Wizard 2) 1d6+5 as a free attack / round.
Ice Darts (Bard 2/Wizard 2) 2d4 half cold up to 5 attacks. SR:no / Save:no

Darkfire (Cleric 3) 5d6 Fire per attack, persistable
Melf's Unicorn Arrow (Wizard 3) 1d8+8+bull rush up to 5 attacks
Stars of Arvandor (Wizard 3/Cleric 4/Druid 4) 1d8 as a free attack/round for up to 10 rounds

Force Orb (Wizard 4) 1d6 up to 10 in one round (fort half)

Darkbolt (Darkness 5) up to 2d8+Daze(Will Neg) up to 7 in one round or 1/round as a free attack.

Certainly, the number of instances of sneak attacks/round from spells can scale well.


One solution might be to be a rogue who talks to the mage, or a mage who talks to the rogue. Furthermore if the rogue goes early he still gets full attack sneak attack from beating the initiative of monsters.
I'm not quite following what "talks to" is meant to imply here. Going early is great if you can, but it's good to have a plan for when you can't.

[Zarvistic]

I think you can only get sneak attack damage on the first attack with spells and casting time doesn't change it. It's in the spell results section of the rc.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I think you can only get sneak attack damage on the first attack with spells and casting time doesn't change it. It's in the spell results section of the rc.Yet another reason to not touch it with a 10.5' pole.

I have yet to see a good reason to use that thing.

[Anthrowhale]

I think you can only get sneak attack damage on the first attack with spells and casting time doesn't change it. It's in the spell results section of the rc.

Ah, it's page 136. Given that, it's not clear to me it's even worthwhile to lose a level of spell access advancement to pick up sneak attack. Just play a mailman instead.

[Zarvistic]

I think pyrokineticist can be interesting too. The sonic version especially. I was thinking maybe a build using swift ambusher and improved psionic sidestep to provoke with the ranged attack and step out to get the 10 feet movement for skirmish for free.

[Anthrowhale]

I think pyrokineticist can be interesting too. The sonic version especially. I was thinking maybe a build using swift ambusher and improved psionic sidestep to provoke with the ranged attack and step out to get the 10 feet movement for skirmish for free.

Using Double Team to enable the sneak attack?

The skirmish damage here seems minor since it's both small in value and you have no method to deal with the Skirmish-immune.

Maybe Rogue 3/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Duskblade 1/Pyrokineticist 1 ?? That triggers by ECL 6 (better than ECL 7) although you don't get the second iterative until ECL 8.

[Zarvistic]

That sounds good. Could perhaps be targetteer fighter 1 for arrow swarm, would allow for 4 attacks per round. And maybe psychic rogue instead of duskblade.

[Condé]

Blue dragon lineage is a good source of ranged touch attack.
I could recommand the rituel of the dark flames too since you can have it in any build for some gold and XP no need for a class dip or anything. The problem with it is the range.10ft only.

[Anthrowhale]

Blue dragon lineage is a good source of ranged touch attack.
It's quite nice, but as a standard action you only get sneak attack once according to RC. (And I don't think there are any methods to finagle it into a full round action.)


I could recommand the rituel of the dark flames too since you can have it in any build for some gold and XP no need for a class dip or anything. The problem with it is the range.10ft only.
This also seems to be just one attack per round. One attack per round doesn't keep up well with mundane ranged sneak attack.

[Anthrowhale]

That sounds good. Could perhaps be targetteer fighter 1 for arrow swarm, would allow for 4 attacks per round. And maybe psychic rogue instead of duskblade.

Makes sense, and congrats on reaching ECL 6 :-)

[Condé]

It's quite nice, but as a standard action you only get sneak attack once according to RC. (And I don't think there are any methods to finagle it into a full round action.)

This also seems to be just one attack per round. One attack per round doesn't keep up well with mundane ranged sneak attack.

You are totally right. But they have the advantage to be accessible as a feat or for... Basically nothing. Do not forget that dark flames is a range touch attack scaling pretty... Okay. 1d6 per level with no cap.
There is some issue tho. Like the lack of support the range and as you said not eligible for iteratives. But it can be a nice backup since few things are resisting or immune to it.

EDIT: you have to find something to negate, prevent or heal the wisdom damage tho. But there is plenty of way to achieve this.

[Troacctid]

It's pretty easy to turn invisible as a swift action, even at low levels. Two levels of monk will do it with Invisible Fist. Swordsages get a maneuver for it. Or you can just cast swift invisibility the old-fashioned way.

You can also easily get a ranged touch attack with Shape Soulmeld.


Yet another reason to not touch it with a 10.5' pole.

I have yet to see a good reason to use that thing.
Calm down, that rule's from CAr, not RC. Yeesh.

[Crake]

Throwing a poison ring seems like a really sus method of getting a ranged touch attack, legalities aside. I also would question the ability for a poison ring to apply sneak attack, as the ring is literally just a few millimeters of a pinprick, designed to deliver a poison, and thus, in my opinion, fails to meet the “must be able to reach a vital spot” requirement of sneak attacks.

A much more reliable method is to use a metamagicked scorching ray to apply the volley rules, and hide in plain sight.

[thatothersting]

For reach extension, Aberration Blood and Inhuman Reach (Lord of Madness) will add 5' of explicitly "natural" reach to any humanoid. Reach weapons, in turn, double your natural reach, so you can have an intrinsically non-magical 20' threatened area with the Kusari-gama for those still fond of the idea. Enlarge Person ofc increases this further, putting your threatened area up to 30' in total, which is the maximum range for sneak attacks without the aid of spells.

[Anthrowhale]

... a range touch attack scaling pretty... Okay.

Yeah. It's a much more convincing scaling if it's hitting everything like wings of flurry.


It's pretty easy to turn invisible as a swift action, even at low levels. Two levels of monk will do it with Invisible Fist.
Once every 3 rounds, so not reliable.


Swordsages get a maneuver for it.

The swordsage recovery mechanism is rough though, so it effectively halves your actions round up.


Or you can just cast swift invisibility the old-fashioned way.

Bard 1 is potentially nice although the limited uses/day is not enough until fairly high level. Also, perhaps invisibility collapses after the first iterative?

A difficulty with all flat-footed techniques is that they do not trigger Lightbringer Rogue damage to the nominally sneak attack immune.


You can also easily get a ranged touch attack with Shape Soulmeld.

3+con bonus/day with a 30' range. Not eligible for iteratives but maybe a decent low level option at least?


Throwing a poison ring seems like a really sus method of getting a ranged touch attack, legalities aside. I also would question the ability for a poison ring to apply sneak attack, as the ring is literally just a few millimeters of a pinprick, designed to deliver a poison, and thus, in my opinion, fails to meet the “must be able to reach a vital spot” requirement of sneak attacks.

I wouldn't want a few millimeters of penetration at certain points on my neck.

A much more reliable method is to use a metamagicked scorching ray to apply the volley rules, and hide in plain sight.
That's disallowed by the RC as per discussion upthread.

For reach extension, Aberration Blood and Inhuman Reach (Lord of Madness) will add 5' of explicitly "natural" reach to any humanoid.
Yeah, although the 2 feat cost is steep here. Still maybe useful options for higher level or if flaws are available.


Reach weapons, in turn, double your natural reach, so you can have an intrinsically non-magical 20' threatened area with the Kusari-gama for those still fond of the idea. Enlarge Person ofc increases this further, putting your threatened area up to 30' in total, which is the maximum range for sneak attacks without the aid of spells.
Reaching 30' does seem quite nice.

[Anthrowhale]

I updated the OP with a summary and realized that Zarvistic's proposal has a hole---the fire lash counts as a ranged attack making it ineligible for flank.

What's the lowest level approach to be able to reliably and every round deny dex to AC to an opponent? And have (say) Grave Strike?

[Condé]

I updated the OP with a summary and realized that Zarvistic's proposal has a hole---the fire lash counts as a ranged attack making it ineligible for flank.

What's the lowest level approach to be able to reliably and every round deny dex to AC to an opponent? And have (say) Grave Strike?

Invisibility. You can reliably have greater invisibility by being a fey (killoren etc...) The assume Supernatural ability feat and the alter self spell. Kinda cheesy tho.

Orherwise Marbles are a cheap way to deny an enemy from its dex to ac.
Any ability or spell that require an enemy to make a balance check work.

[Saintheart]

I updated the OP with a summary and realized that Zarvistic's proposal has a hole---the fire lash counts as a ranged attack making it ineligible for flank.

What's the lowest level approach to be able to reliably and every round deny dex to AC to an opponent? And have (say) Grave Strike?

Grave Strike is Cleric 1, so a level in Cleric + Wand Chamber + Wand of Grave Strike gets you that each round, based on DrComp's rule that a wand of a swift action spell is a swift action to activate.

A drow-based SLA or feat might be able to achieve reliable DEX denial to AC via blinding, since blinded targets are denied DEX to AC. e.g. Gift of the Spider Queen's Blinding Vanish.

[ericgrau]

I'm not quite following what "talks to" is meant to imply here. Going early is great if you can, but it's good to have a plan for when you can't.
Mage goes first round 1, mage sets up sneak attack (with the spells I described which are great even without triggering SA). Rogue goes first round 1, rogue has sneak attack anyway because monsters that haven't gone yet are flat footed. And so on for all the in between cases. Only time the rogue can't sneak attack round 1 is if he goes before the mage yet after all the monsters. Or if the party is surprised.

So with almost trivial party coordination you can have ranged full attack sneak attacks from level 1. Start with grease (even/especially on a passed save) and expand to higher level spells.

I think ranged rogues in general are severely underrated. Besides the full attack every round and countless SA triggers available, rogues are squishy.

[Zarvistic]

With the pyro (cryo?) and targetteers arrow swarm theres 4 attacks. First one could be to throw an eggshell grenade for blindness then follow up with lashes. Would that work?

[Troacctid]

Bard 1 is potentially nice although the limited uses/day is not enough until fairly high level. Also, perhaps invisibility collapses after the first iterative?
A wand of it is pretty cheap. Should be affordable with level 2 WBL. And if you're trying to do it before level 9, there's no such thing as an iterative.


A difficulty with all flat-footed techniques is that they do not trigger Lightbringer Rogue damage to the nominally sneak attack immune.
Well, no, but that's because you asked about ranged sneak attacks, which don't work with penetrating strike. If you want to shift focus to melee sneak attacks, I guess we can do that, but probably you should change the name of the thread in that case, right?

Anyway, you don't need any special tricks to flank an enemy. You just need an ally and maybe some Tumble ranks. Or if you want it to be super reliable, the Island of Blades stance makes it so just being adjacent to an enemy while mounted (or while acting as a mount) gives you flanking. Very easy.


3+con bonus/day with a 30' range. Not eligible for iteratives but maybe a decent low level option at least?
No, it's usable at will. And again, what iteratives? Isn't the premise of the thread to do it below ECL 7?

[Gruftzwerg]

What's the lowest level approach to be able to reliably and every round deny dex to AC to an opponent? And have (say) Grave Strike?

Cleric 1 ?^^

I recommend Ice Slick (Cleric 1) to force enemies into balance checks = flat-footed = no Dex to AC (unless target has 5 ranks in Balance). It's basically Grease but double the size (20ft square). Widen it for extra fun.

[Rebel7284]

Bloodstorm blade is always confusing to me because I was never able to figure out if how the primary ability works.



Thunderous Throw (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, you build up incredible tension as you ready yourself to throw your weapon, which becomes visible around you like heat waves. When you release your weapon, that power rushes out with your weapon. As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties. Attacking into melee, through cover, and so forth incurs the standard penalties. In addition, you can apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage if you wield the thrown weapon with two hands, and you can use Power Attack with your thrown weapon attacks (adding two times the number subtracted from attack rolls as a bonus on damage rolls when throwing a twohanded weapon).


So do you treat your attacks as BOTH ranged and melee or ONLY melee (except for those penalties that are called out). This impacts a TON of interactions with other classes/feats and I don't think it's made clear anywhere.

[Darg]

Bloodstorm blade is always confusing to me because I was never able to figure out if how the primary ability works.



So do you treat your attacks as BOTH ranged and melee or ONLY melee (except for those penalties that are called out). This impacts a TON of interactions with other classes/feats and I don't think it's made clear anywhere.

Basically, think of it as using a ranged weapon to make melee attacks which you can already do at a -4 penalty. The ability gets rid of the -4 and gives it range in essence while being classified as melee.

The attacks are considered melee attacks delivered by ranged weapons if that makes sense.

[Crake]

I wouldn't want a few millimeters of penetration at certain points on my neck.

Except skin is rather flexible, and especially around the neck, and since the prick is attached to a rounded ring, it would have trouble penetrating into the neck without significant, sustained pressure, which a throw cannot provide, as it would just bounce off.

Also, arteries and veins in your neck are pretty decently embedded inside, a couple of millimeters might be scary to think of, and maybe if grabbed and scraped across your neck could cause significant damage, but just jabbed at you for an instant, it probably wouldnt even break the skin.




That's disallowed by the RC as per discussion upthread.

Sorry, i guess I wasnt clear, the reason you metamagic it was to increase its casting time as a spontaneous caster to a full round action, hence triggering those exact rules in question, which allow you to get a sneak attack on all of the volley attacks.

Also, as noted, the volley rules are actually from complete arcane, not RC.

[Anthrowhale]

Invisibility. You can reliably have greater invisibility by being a fey (killoren etc...) The assume Supernatural ability feat and the alter self spell.
It's an interesting approach. The biggest drawback I see is that keeping Alter Self up for the adventuring day is a bit challenging at lower levels, but it bears consideration.


Orherwise Marbles are a cheap way to deny an enemy from its dex to ac.
Any ability or spell that require an enemy to make a balance check work.
These approaches eat actions, no? It's good to have your setup be not an action.


Grave Strike is Cleric 1, so a level in Cleric + Wand Chamber + Wand of Grave Strike gets you that each round, based on DrComp's rule that a wand of a swift action spell is a swift action to activate.
The level pressure is significant, but this may work. It eats the swift action (which could be ok) and costs 15gp / round which seems a bit steep, but not unreasonable in the mid levels.


A drow-based SLA or feat might be able to achieve reliable DEX denial to AC via blinding, since blinded targets are denied DEX to AC. e.g. Gift of the Spider Queen's Blinding Vanish.
This appears rather limited in uses per day? And you are losing on LA?



So with almost trivial party coordination you can have ranged full attack sneak attacks from level 1. Start with grease (even/especially on a passed save) and expand to higher level spells.

I think ranged rogues in general are severely underrated. Besides the full attack every round and countless SA triggers available, rogues are squishy.
I can see this working well in cooperative parties----the wizard sets up the crowd control which enables a ranged SA massacre.


With the pyro (cryo?) and targetteers arrow swarm theres 4 attacks. First one could be to throw an eggshell grenade for blindness then follow up with lashes. Would that work?
You'll need quickdraw to sustain use over rounds but it does seem cheap enough to use. The 5' range increment in combination with Arrow Swarms -4 and an off-hand -2 could be pretty steep. For example, at range 20, I think you are setup for a -14 penalty to hit. Touch attacks are great, but that's a pretty stiff penalty.


A wand of it is pretty cheap. Should be affordable with level 2 WBL. And if you're trying to do it before level 9, there's no such thing as an iterative.
Why level 9? Zarvistic's approach is relying on Arrow Swarm. The wand would be 30gp/round of combat and it looks like you instantly lose the benefit after the first iterative.



Well, no, but that's because you asked about ranged sneak attacks, which don't work with penetrating strike. If you want to shift focus to melee sneak attacks, I guess we can do that, but probably you should change the name of the thread in that case, right?
The quotes in "ranged" were meant to be a hint :-)

Bloodstorm Blade allows you to throw a weapons as a _melee_ attack, which enables flanking to work. The combo with penetrating strike for immunity suppression is what makes this interesting.



Anyway, you don't need any special tricks to flank an enemy. You just need an ally and maybe some Tumble ranks. Or if you want it to be super reliable, the Island of Blades stance makes it so just being adjacent to an enemy while mounted (or while acting as a mount) gives you flanking. Very easy.

Except that we want to succeed with some range to avoid being curb-stomped by any survivors.


No, it's usable at will.

Dissolving Spittle says:

As a standard action...

which I believe means that you can't generally use it as part of a full attack action?


Isn't the premise of the thread to do it below ECL 7?

For good values of 'it', that seem a good question.


Cleric 1 ?^^

I recommend Ice Slick (Cleric 1) to force enemies into balance checks = flat-footed = no Dex to AC (unless target has 5 ranks in Balance). It's basically Grease but double the size (20ft square). Widen it for extra fun.
It's ok in an environment where you have actions and spells to burn. If the goal is dealing SA, dealing SA immediately and continually seems plausibly superior to spend a round or more on setup.


So do you treat your attacks as BOTH ranged and melee or ONLY melee (except for those penalties that are called out). This impacts a TON of interactions with other classes/feats and I don't think it's made clear anywhere.
I was going with the second interpretation as it's more restrictive. The operative part is:

... treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks ...
So all ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons "are" melee attacks for which some of the ranged weapon rules (i.e. range increment, attacking into melee, etc...) apply.


Except skin is rather flexible, and especially around the neck, and since the prick is attached to a rounded ring, it would have trouble penetrating into the neck without significant, sustained pressure, which a throw cannot provide, as it would just bounce off.

Also, arteries and veins in your neck are pretty decently embedded inside, a couple of millimeters might be scary to think of, and maybe if grabbed and scraped across your neck could cause significant damage, but just jabbed at you for an instant, it probably wouldnt even break the skin.

I'm not an expert here. My impression is that in the real world thrown rings dealing significant damage in most cases aren't a thing. Rules-wise, that seems to be invalid in D&D world, where (for example) you can apply your strength bonus to amp up damage to something rivaling a two-handed sword.



Sorry, i guess I wasnt clear, the reason you metamagic it was to increase its casting time as a spontaneous caster to a full round action, hence triggering those exact rules in question, which allow you to get a sneak attack on all of the volley attacks.

Also, as noted, the volley rules are actually from complete arcane, not RC.
This was discussed up thread. There's another RC rule which makes this trick invalid on page 136.

[Crake]

I'm not an expert here. My impression is that in the real world thrown rings dealing significant damage in most cases aren't a thing. Rules-wise, that seems to be invalid in D&D world, where (for example) you can apply your strength bonus to amp up damage to something rivaling a two-handed sword.

The rules text of the poison ring says it does 1 point of damage, not indicating that it scales at all with strength or anything. Now, you can take the stance of “but it doesnt say I dont add my strength” approach, but you’re dealing with dragon content here, and thats a pretty disingenuous approach.




This was discussed up thread. There's another RC rule which makes this trick invalid on page 136.

The RC doesnt negate the Complete Arcane rule, it just omits it, thus, in the case of a full round action cast of a volley spell, the more specific ruling of complete arcane takes precedent.

[Gruftzwerg]

It's ok in an environment where you have actions and spells to burn. If the goal is dealing SA, dealing SA immediately and continually seems plausibly superior to spend a round or more on setup.


You could later quicken Ice Slick. Or go for the time domain and get contingency later.


Alternatively you can buy a Collar of Perpetual Attendance (2k gold) and a huge amount of marbles (2 silver for each application/charge). Let the unseen servant drop the marbles into enemies space to force balance checks.

[Anthrowhale]

The rules text of the poison ring says it does 1 point of damage, not indicating that it scales at all with strength or anything. Now, you can take the stance of “but it doesnt say I dont add my strength” approach, but you’re dealing with dragon content here, and thats a pretty disingenuous approach.
If you want to houserule strength as not working with the poison ring I think that's entirely fine. Asserting that the rules say some melee weapons have a strength bonus applied while others do not definitely requires some backing quote.


The RC doesnt negate the Complete Arcane rule, it just omits it, thus, in the case of a full round action cast of a volley spell, the more specific ruling of complete arcane takes precedent.
I see no rules support for full attack sneak attack with spells in either source. Complete Arcane page 86 says:


Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not.

Rules Compendium page 136 says:


Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster receives a bonus on damage or some form of extra damage (such as precision damage) with such spells, the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not.

The text is almost identical, with both forbidding multiple instances of sneak attack on weaponlike spells in a round.

You could later quicken Ice Slick. Or go for the time domain and get contingency later.
These would work, but seem an exorbitant investment.


Alternatively you can buy a Collar of Perpetual Attendance (2k gold) and a huge amount of marbles (2 silver for each application/charge). Let the unseen servant drop the marbles into enemies space to force balance checks.
Unseen servants are rather slow with only a 15' move per round. I don't see how to make this work round after round at a significant range?

[Saintheart]

Another one for reliable DEX denial to AC, albeit it does require a bit of investment: Improved Feint + Insightful Feint (Sor/Wiz 1). This combination makes a combat feint a free action and puts a +10 to your Bluff check. If the Bluff vs Sense Motive gets up, the target is denied DEX bonus to AC against the next attack. Costs you a swift action each round for casting the spell, though, and in a Wand + Wand Chamber costs you 15gp per round for the spell, but it's round-by-round DEX denial to AC since you've got a +10 on your Bluff check and most creatures don't put a lot of ranks in Sense Motive (although the feint check allows them to add their BAB to it).

If you want to put the Bluff check a bit more beyond doubt, taking a few more levels, then Changeling Rogue ACF for a take 10 on Bluff checks and a level in Marshal for its aura that boosts CHA-based checks. Plus Masterwork Tool, Circlet of Persuasion, etc. Magical Training might get around having to take a level in an arcane spellcasting class if you don't mind sticking to wands your whole career.

[Crake]

If you want to houserule strength as not working with the poison ring I think that's entirely fine. Asserting that the rules say some melee weapons have a strength bonus applied while others do not definitely requires some backing quote.


The weapon entry for the poison ring itself says it does only 1 damage on a hit, and because of that, it requires a DC10 wisdom check to even realise who attacked you with it.

[Saintheart]

The weapon entry for the poison ring itself says it does only 1 damage on a hit, and because of that, it requires a DC10 wisdom check to even realise who attacked you with it.

And to be fair, light weapons themselves do alter how much STR is applicable to a hit with them. No benefit from wielding in two hands as with one-handed weapons, 0.5 STR bonus if wielded in the off hand. Power Attack gives them no bonus at all but nerfs their attack rolls.

[Darg]

The biggest problem with the ring has more to do with whether it allows you to do damage on a touch attack without a dose of poison. Without a dose of poison it makes the statement about doing 1 damage + poison damage as a touch attack false. Logic would dictate that the option is no longer available.

[Anthrowhale]

Another one for reliable DEX denial to AC, albeit it does require a bit of investment: Improved Feint + Insightful Feint (Sor/Wiz 1).
It's a valid combo, but seems like a high investment compared to alternatives. The lowest investment approach so far might be Condé's.


The weapon entry for the poison ring itself says it does only 1 damage on a hit, and because of that, it requires a DC10 wisdom check to even realise who attacked you with it.
A valid observation of course, but is there some implication you have in mind?


And to be fair, light weapons themselves do alter how much STR is applicable to a hit with them. No benefit from wielding in two hands as with one-handed weapons, 0.5 STR bonus if wielded in the off hand. Power Attack gives them no bonus at all but nerfs their attack rolls.
I don't think size matters in a meaningful sense here. According to the rules at least, you could use an oversized one-handed poison ring with the downside just being -2 to attack.


The biggest problem with the ring has more to do with whether it allows you to do damage on a touch attack without a dose of poison. Without a dose of poison it makes the statement about doing 1 damage + poison damage as a touch attack false. Logic would dictate that the option is no longer available.
I'm not following. The table says that it does 1 damage? And if you use poison that does no damage (i.e. no poison), it should do 1 damage? If you have some fine parsing of RAW in mind, maybe you can spell it out?

In terms of approaches using Fire Lash, perhaps:

Fey Psychic Rogue 1/Martial Wizard 3/Targeteer Fighter 1/Pyrokineticist 1
1 Craven
Wizard 1: Point Blank Shot
3 Rapid Shot
Targeteer 1: Arrow Swarm
6 Assume Supernatural Ability[Greater Invisibility]

works reasonably? Access to Alter Self[Pixie] is a bit restrictive, but with a rod of extend spell you should be able to get several hours per day, at least. Since the ability is constant, the clause about using it in combat should not apply unless you are active trying to suppress or resume in combat.

The range is only 15', but that's enough to be out of reach from most large or smaller monsters.

[Darg]

I'm not following. The table says that it does 1 damage? And if you use poison that does no damage (i.e. no poison), it should do 1 damage? If you have some fine parsing of RAW in mind, maybe you can spell it out?

You can use it to make a normal attack for 1 damage. That's what the table actually says. You get the special attack from the weapon description. You make a touch attack to deliver the poison. You aren't given special permission to continue making touch attacks to deal damage without poison.

[Troacctid]

The biggest problem with the ring has more to do with whether it allows you to do damage on a touch attack without a dose of poison. Without a dose of poison it makes the statement about doing 1 damage + poison damage as a touch attack false. Logic would dictate that the option is no longer available.
Logic would dictate that it's never a touch attack. The idea that a little pokey ring would pierce through a shield and a suit of armor better than a pickaxe or a crossbow bolt would is patently ludicrous.


Dissolving Spittle says:

which I believe means that you can't generally use it as part of a full attack action?
There's no daily limit on it, though. You seemed to be under the impression that it was limited based on your Con mod.


For good values of 'it', that seem a good question.
Well, you are the OP. Are you interested in methods that work from level 1 or 2? Or are you just focused on the level 9 game? The answers are going to be different either way.


Except that we want to succeed with some range to avoid being curb-stomped by any survivors.
Then you'll need to either give up on penetrating strike or invest in a Flyby Attack effect.

[Crake]

Logic would dictate that it's never a touch attack. The idea that a little pokey ring would pierce through a shield and a suit of armor better than a pickaxe or a crossbow bolt would is patently ludicrous.

I would definitely be inclined to agree with you, as, when you think about it, a wolf's thick fur, or a dragon's tough hide would also be equally as difficult to pierce through. Kinda the issue with using hastily thrown together dragon magazine content.

[Anthrowhale]

Logic would dictate that it's never a touch attack.
I agree with this. The rules violate logic here.



There's no daily limit on it, though. You seemed to be under the impression that it was limited based on your Con mod.

Ah, you're right.



Well, you are the OP. Are you interested in methods that work from level 1 or 2? Or are you just focused on the level 9 game? The answers are going to be different either way.

Yes, I'm interested.

Let me mention again though the "reliable" desire here. There are a bunch of ways sneak attack doesn't happen (not flat footed or flanked, immune to SA, missed attack, to busy setting up to make an attack, etc...). We'd like to avoid or ameliorate those. We'd also like to have enough range that we can often full attack without moving and have someone else absorb attacks from monsters.

So a Halfling ACF rogue 1 with Dissolving Spittle puts out an impressive 1d6+2d6 SA acid damage at a 30' range but lacks a good method to deal with {not flat footed or flanked, immune to SA}. Suggestions?



Then you'll need to either give up on penetrating strike or invest in a Flyby Attack effect.
Penetrating strike with a 20' or 30' reach seems plausibly good enough to interpose some meat shield, yes? In generally, anything beyond a 10' reach seems like it's potentially useful although the use grows with range out to 30' when SA stops working.


You can use it to make a normal attack for 1 damage. That's what the table actually says. You get the special attack from the weapon description. You make a touch attack to deliver the poison. You aren't given special permission to continue making touch attacks to deal damage without poison.

So, something like Polymorph[Kelvezu] would make you believe that it can be used in touch attacks iteratively? Or preapplication of poison + quickdraw?

[Darg]

So, something like Polymorph[Kelvezu] would make you believe that it can be used in touch attacks iteratively? Or preapplication of poison + quickdraw?

Kelvesu wouldn't work because the ring works with a reservoir, likely similar to a syringe. The creature only coats their weapons with the ability, it doesn't fill things with it. Likewise quickdraw wouldn't work because it still takes a standard to lock the needle into position for use, but it would save you a move to draw the weapon.

[Zarvistic]

Another alternative with alchemical items. I was thinking something like this:
Shadovig race (+1 LA), warlock 1. Taking the darkness sla for Blend into shadows and to turn on the shade abilities. Can already shoot blasts with sneak damage at this point but needs a way to cast gravestrike and similar spells with offhand wands or so, not sure what level to add for that, maybe cleric. Targetteer after this for arrow swarm. Huge dex and size makes for a big attack and hide bonus and has a bunch of extras stuff like invisiblity and mirror image slas. At this point it still needs quickdraw and a class with sneak and craven to be more complete.

[Anthrowhale]

Another alternative with alchemical items. I was thinking something like this:
Shadovig race (+1 LA), warlock 1. Taking the darkness sla for Blend into shadows and to turn on the shade abilities. Can already shoot blasts with sneak damage at this point but needs a way to cast gravestrike and similar spells with offhand wands or so, not sure what level to add for that, maybe cleric. Targetteer after this for arrow swarm. Huge dex and size makes for a big attack and hide bonus and has a bunch of extras stuff like invisiblity and mirror image slas. At this point it still needs quickdraw and a class with sneak and craven to be more complete.

Where is Shadovig listed as LA+1?

[Zarvistic]

In dragon 299 on a sidebar, either same page as their stats or 1 page near it.

[Anthrowhale]

In dragon 299 on a sidebar, either same page as their stats or 1 page near it.

Good. That stat line is impressive:
Dimunitive Fey Str-8, Dex+12, Con+0, Int+2, Wis -2, Cha-2, Sneak Attack 1d6, Uncanny Dodge, Darkvision, Shade Abilities, Poison, SLAs Invisibility, Mirror Image 3/day, Shade Abilities, LA+1
The level adjustment is well deserved.

Two other issues to consider:

Shade Abilities and at-will darkness makes it tempting to dump darkness everywhere, but darkness disrupts the attack if the target is within it since it grants concealment. The spell Ebon Eyes plausibly provides a way around this.
The weight of alchemicals may be a serious concern. The dimunitive multiplier (x1/4) and the -8 strength penalty mean they can carry 1-9 lbs as a light load. Are there any alchemicals weighing less than 1lb?

[Zarvistic]

Totally forgot about weight, good note. Can forget about alchemicals I think, but the race/warlock start still seems really good.

What do you think of the power psychic whip? It needs ML 3 at least to be swift action. But psychic warrior also comes with bonus feats so thats maybe good and there is also practiced manifester.

Also maybe a cleric level for the elf domain and I think there is a domain that lets you see in darkness or something like that.

[Anthrowhale]

What do you think of the power psychic whip? It needs ML 3 at least to be swift action. But psychic warrior also comes with bonus feats so thats maybe good and there is also practiced manifester.
Is the damage mind-affecting?

[Zarvistic]

It reads to me like only the stun effect is minf-affecting.

[Anthrowhale]

It reads to me like only the stun effect is mind-affecting.

Yeah, agreed.

I don't see which cleric domain you have in mind?

[Zarvistic]

I searched for it and it turns out it's one of the planar domains, Baator. So that'll take both domains but maybe still worth it as cleric gets gravestrike at least, not sure tho.

[Anthrowhale]

I searched for it and it turns out it's one of the planar domains, Baator. So that'll take both domains but maybe still worth it as cleric gets gravestrike at least, not sure tho.

Nice.

I believe the proposal is something like:
Shadovig Warlock 1/Cleric[Baator] 1/Psychic Warrior 1
1. Blend into Shadows
3. Darkstalker
Psychic Warrior 1: Practiced manifester
and buy a wand of grave strike

Warlock provides unlimited darkness which also feeds Blend into Shadows. Darkstalker makes the swift hide "stick". Cleric provides the ability to see perfectly in darkness enabling sneak attack to work. It also makes the wand of Grave Strike allow you to at least penetrate the SA immunity of undead. Psychic Warrior provides Psychic Lash which enables a 15' ranged touch attack for 1d6 damage.

Issues I see:
(a) The damage is a bit low at 1d6+1d6 SA.
(b) Blend into Shadows, Grave Strike, and Psychic Lash all compete for the swift action.
(c) You don't have enough PPs to trigger Psychic Lash much.

[Darg]

Nice.

I believe the proposal is something like:
Shadovig Warlock 1/Cleric[Baator] 1/Psychic Warrior 1
1. Blend into Shadows
3. Darkstalker
Psychic Warrior 1: Practiced manifester
and buy a wand of grave strike

Warlock provides unlimited darkness which also feeds Blend into Shadows. Darkstalker makes the swift hide "stick". Cleric provides the ability to see perfectly in darkness enabling sneak attack to work. It also makes the wand of Grave Strike allow you to at least penetrate the SA immunity of undead. Psychic Warrior provides Psychic Lash which enables a 15' ranged touch attack for 1d6 damage.

Issues I see:
(a) The damage is a bit low at 1d6+1d6 SA.
(b) Blend into Shadows, Grave Strike, and Psychic Lash all compete for the swift action.
(c) You don't have enough PPs to trigger Psychic Lash much.

Warlock gives a 60ft ranged touch, gets darkness and devil's sight, and at 4th can deceive item with 2d6 blast damage while grabbing an invocation that makes them impossible to track with scent. 6th level gets them at will invisibility or flight, and grants access to extra invocation which can be useful to grab spider walk if you don't grab flight.

[Anthrowhale]

Warlock gives a 60ft ranged touch, gets darkness and devil's sight, and at 4th can deceive item with 2d6 blast damage while grabbing an invocation that makes them impossible to track with scent. 6th level gets them at will invisibility or flight, and grants access to extra invocation which can be useful to grab spider walk if you don't grab flight.

My understanding is that iteratives at range are not possible, which makes it difficult to keep up.

[Crake]

My understanding is that iteratives at range are not possible, which makes it difficult to keep up.

Depends on what you’re keeping up with. Reliable level d6+level damage every round counts as keeping up at a lot of tables.

[Troacctid]

My understanding is that iteratives at range are not possible, which makes it difficult to keep up.
There are two different invocations that you can take to get multiple attacks for your eldritch blasts: Glaive for melee, Chain for ranged.

[Anthrowhale]

Chain for ranged.
I believe this is a standard action by default. Is there any way to make it into a full-round action? Unfortunately, Empower SLA doesn't change the time.

[Darg]

I believe this is a standard action by default. Is there any way to make it into a full-round action? Unfortunately, Empower SLA doesn't change the time.


Each target struck after the first takes half the damage dealt to the first target. This reduction in damage to secondary targets applies to any effect that increases the damage of your eldritch blast (such as vitriolic blast).

At least for chain, it doesn't matter. The damage done to secondary targets is based on how much is delivered to the primary. You roll for damage once and then multiply it by 50% and deal it to each subsequent target hit.

[Anthrowhale]

Depends on what you’re keeping up with. Reliable level d6+level damage every round counts as keeping up at a lot of tables.

I think you want to keep up with about 1/2 hit points of level appropriate monsters.

So, at CR 20, you are looking to slightly over ~200 damage, which we can think of as 60d6. A baseline rogue with Craven is inflicting about 15d6 damage/hit, so you need 4 hits to keep up at ECL 20.

At CR 10, that's ~65 damage (~= 18d6), with a baseline rogue+craven dealing about 8d6/hit implying slightly over 2 hits.

At CR 5, that's ~28 damage (~=8d6), with a baseline rogue+craven dealing about 5d6/hit implying slightly over 1 hit.


At least for chain, it doesn't matter. The damage done to secondary targets is based on how much is delivered to the primary. You roll for damage once and then multiply it by 50% and deal it to each subsequent target hit.

I'm not sure that's how it works with extra precision damage given the volley rules in the RC. Regardless, chain seems reasonable for crowd control but not for the boss.

[Crake]

I think you want to keep up with about 1/2 hit points of level appropriate monsters.

Again, it highly depends on the table. 1/2 hitpoints of a level appropriate monster means on average 2 monsters are dying per round, since you have 4 party members. For most tables, that is not a realistic pace to be trying to keep up with. If each CR appropriate monster takes 4 rounds to deal with, in a 4 player party, that's closer to 1/16th of a monster's hp each round, which, if a CR20 monster has 400hp, that's 25 dpr. Remember, that's AVERAGE DPR, so including misses and whatnot, the average damage of a HIT will be higher.

Take the ruling that CL bonuses increase eldritch blast damage, which is a recommendation by the author of the warlock class, and you can go rogue 3/warlock 1/wizard 1/unseen seer 10/warlock 5 with practised spellcaster for warlock.

That gets you 7d6 sneak attack, slap on martial stance for assassin's stance for another 2d6, giving you 9d6 sneak attack, plus 9d6 eldritch blast, slap on an extra 2d6 from a greater chausable of fell power for 20d6+20 sneak attack edritch blast damage with craven, which averages you 90 damage on a hit, pretty respectable damage, considering it's vs flat footed touch 90% of the time, so you're probably only missing on a natural 1. By that level you're also easily able to afford a wand of swift invisibility, or be casting the retributive invisibility invocation for at will greater invis, so you can pretty reliably get sneak attack damage off on creatures every round, and you can completely ignore spell resistance by using vitriolic blast.

if you ABSOLUTELY UTTERLY DEFINITELY NEED more DPR ontop of that, you can save belts of battle for clutch situations where you have greater invis/greater blink up and can just slap out some more sneak attack eldritch blasts off.

Also keep in mind, you can cast sniper's shot from your wizard spells, along with edritch spear for 250ft ranged sneak attacks.

[Darg]

I'm not sure that's how it works with extra precision damage given the volley rules in the RC. Regardless, chain seems reasonable for crowd control but not for the boss.

You aren't applying separate instances of precision damage. It's a single instance that improves your first attack which all secondary attacks are calculated from. As for blast damage against the boss, that's what your chausible, warlock's scepter, and gloves of eldritch admixture are for. Add in hellfire warlock and you're up to 25d6 damage. If you want to, you can stack up some SA bonus damage and grab craven. Empower, maximize, quicken SLA are a thing too. Are you going to one shot CR appropriate monsters? No, but then again you're way over performing if you do anyways.


Take the ruling that CL bonuses increase eldritch blast damage, which is a recommendation by the author of the warlock class, and you can go rogue 3/warlock 1/wizard 1/unseen seer 10/warlock 5 with practised spellcaster for warlock.

It already does this by RAW if you have levels in a casting progressing PRC. And it counts class levels, not spellcasting levels for blast die(/level, but that was errata'd out so EB stays level 1)

[Troacctid]

Take the ruling that CL bonuses increase eldritch blast damage, which is a recommendation by the author of the warlock class
I see people cite this a lot, but I think it's a little misleading, because the author actually said, "If eldritch blast were written in such a way that it dealt damage based on the warlock's caster level, it would be fine. But the damage is based on the warlock's class level. While those two things are almost always going to be the same, you have to take a pretty liberal interpretation to let Practiced Spellcaster work on eldritch blast." Which is not really what I'd call a recommendation; it comes across much more like a "We could have done it this way, and it wouldn't have broken anything if we did, but that's not how we wrote it, and that's fine, because the text we ended up with is also not breaking anything."

I've tried tying blast damage to caster level rather than warlock level and I don't recommend it. It does weird things to the level progression (potentially creating dead spots at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 14, and 17 if they no longer line up to give you an extra damage die), and the vectors of optimization it opens up aren't all that fun or interesting. Also, IMO, whatever the intent of the designer of the warlock may be, I think the intent of the designer of the feat is crystal clear that it does not and should not affect anything from the class beyond caster level for that class's spells.

[Zarvistic]

Nice.

I believe the proposal is something like:
Shadovig Warlock 1/Cleric[Baator] 1/Psychic Warrior 1
1. Blend into Shadows
3. Darkstalker
Psychic Warrior 1: Practiced manifester
and buy a wand of grave strike

Warlock provides unlimited darkness which also feeds Blend into Shadows. Darkstalker makes the swift hide "stick". Cleric provides the ability to see perfectly in darkness enabling sneak attack to work. It also makes the wand of Grave Strike allow you to at least penetrate the SA immunity of undead. Psychic Warrior provides Psychic Lash which enables a 15' ranged touch attack for 1d6 damage.

Issues I see:
(a) The damage is a bit low at 1d6+1d6 SA.
(b) Blend into Shadows, Grave Strike, and Psychic Lash all compete for the swift action.
(c) You don't have enough PPs to trigger Psychic Lash much.

Good points, that sounds pretty good but I guess the psw is not really good on this. Was just an idea to get iteratives earlier. For blend activation, I was thinking you only do that once or twice and rest of the time you full attack and hide with the -20 penalty.

Going back to pyro, perhaps warlock 1, cleric 1, wizard 1, targetteer 1, psychic rogue 1, pyro 1. Thats ecl 7 but might be able to buy off the LA before that and does somewhat ok before that level with blasts and sneak. Comes with all the strike spell wands in off-hand, 4 attacks with (sonic) lash 1d6+2d6+craven damage and not competing for the swifts either. Accuracy should be good too, especially with fractional bab. Super ugly tho with all those level 1s.

[Crake]

I see people cite this a lot, but I think it's a little misleading, because the author actually said, "If eldritch blast were written in such a way that it dealt damage based on the warlock's caster level, it would be fine. But the damage is based on the warlock's class level. While those two things are almost always going to be the same, you have to take a pretty liberal interpretation to let Practiced Spellcaster work on eldritch blast." Which is not really what I'd call a recommendation; it comes across much more like a "We could have done it this way, and it wouldn't have broken anything if we did, but that's not how we wrote it, and that's fine, because the text we ended up with is also not breaking anything."

I've tried tying blast damage to caster level rather than warlock level and I don't recommend it. It does weird things to the level progression (potentially creating dead spots at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 14, and 17 if they no longer line up to give you an extra damage die), and the vectors of optimization it opens up aren't all that fun or interesting. Also, IMO, whatever the intent of the designer of the warlock may be, I think the intent of the designer of the feat is crystal clear that it does not and should not affect anything from the class beyond caster level for that class's spells.

Eh, well, even without that ruling, you only lose 2d6 damage, not that big of a deal.

[Anthrowhale]

Again, it highly depends on the table. 1/2 hitpoints of a level appropriate monster means on average 2 monsters are dying per round, since you have 4 party members.
A party consisting of 4 strikers is unusual and may have difficulties with many noncombat challenges. Striker (what we are thinking about here), Crowd Controller/trapmaster (Beguiler) , Buffer+Speedbump (Cleric), Speedbump+Lockdown (Crusader) might be more typical.



...which averages you 90 damage on a hit, pretty respectable damage,
it's decent.


You aren't applying separate instances of precision damage.
Yeah, I understand the argument.


...Super ugly tho with all those level 1s.
Yeah,

There's another trickiness in that you can't snipe with iteratives (although the Chain blast plausibly works). So, at range it's either a single attack+hide or multiple attacks+{Blink+Seeking, Greater Invisibility, Greater Blink}.

[Anthrowhale]

Thinking about the Eldritch Chain approach, how about:

Hengeyokai[Sparrow] Warlock 1/Spellthief 1/Warlock 3/Unseen Seer 10/Hellfire Warlock 3/Rogue 1/Sneak attack Fighter 1

With feats:
1. Blend Into Shadows
3. Craven

As a fine creature with a +6 dex bonus, you have a superior hide skill. Blend Into Shadows enables use as a swift action.

CR HP Damage Fraction Notes
1 12 3.5 29% 1d6 blast + Hide
2 21 7 33% +1d6 Sneak Attack
3 27 10 37% +Craven
4 48 14.5 30% +1d6 blast
5 56 15.5 28%
6 69 23.5 34% +1d6 blast +1d6 SA
7 87 24.5+12 42% +Eldritch Chain
8 96 29+14 45% +1d6 blast
9 131 33.5+16 38% +1d6 SA
10 137 38+19 42% +1d6 blast
11 164 39+19+19 47% +second Eldritch Chain
12 196 47+23+23 47% +1d6 blast +1d6 SA
13 196 48+24+24 49%
14 196 49+24+24 49%
15 225 57+28+28 50% +1d6 blast +1d6 SA
16 239 65+32+32+32 67% +3rd eldritch Chain + Hellfire Warlock 1
17 245 73+36+36+36 74% +Hellfire Warlock 2
18 302 84.5+42+42+42 70% +1d6 blast +Hellfire warlock 3
19 356 88.5+44+44+44 62% +1d6 SA
20 409 93+46+46+46 56% +1d6 SA

The biggest issue I see is that you don't always have a secondary target available and there is contention for the swift action when you need to both blend into shadows and use an <x> strike wand. The damage is also a little bit low around levels 4&5. It's tempting to push a level of sneak attack fighter into level 5 although that has ramifications for access to Eldritch Chain.

[Crake]

A party consisting of 4 strikers is unusual and may have difficulties with many noncombat challenges. Striker (what we are thinking about here), Crowd Controller/trapmaster (Beguiler) , Buffer+Speedbump (Cleric), Speedbump+Lockdown (Crusader) might be more typical.

Except, if you’re saying that, to keep up at your table, you need to be able to do half a CR appropriate monster’s hp as DPR, seems to me like 4 strikers would wipe the floor with any combat in a jiffy. Thats also not mentioning that you can be a striker AND have those other roles.


Blink+Seeking

I don’t think blink+seeking works. Seeking functions by letting your arrows swerve to hit their target, while blink’s miss chance as a user is derived from the fact that theres a chance you’re literally on another plane when you fire your arrow, making it impossible to hit no matter how hard it swerves.

[Anthrowhale]

Except, if you’re saying that, to keep up at your table, you need to be able to do half a CR appropriate monster’s hp as DPR, seems to me like 4 strikers would wipe the floor with any combat in a jiffy. Thats also not mentioning that you can be a striker AND have those other roles.

At low levels, my experience is that a good striker (~1/2 hp of CR = ECL or more) is fairly challenging leaving relatively little resources to handle other tasks. At higher levels I tend to agree.

As an example, the Minimal Mailman (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628874-A-Minimal-Mailman) eats up all your feats and nearly all your spell slots through level 6. After that though, you can certainly grow other capabilities.



I don’t think blink+seeking works. Seeking functions by letting your arrows swerve to hit their target, while blink’s miss chance as a user is derived from the fact that theres a chance you’re literally on another plane when you fire your arrow, making it impossible to hit no matter how hard it swerves.
This is logical but not a stated exception to the scope of Seeking.

[Troacctid]

The Seeking ability is very broadly worded. It ignores all miss chances. That should include the miss chances for blinking.

The bigger issue for a rogue is that negating only the miss chance from concealment without removing the concealment itself doesn't enable you to sneak attack the target, which is unfortunate. I do think it is generally a strong weapon ability for its price, though.

[Anthrowhale]

The bigger issue for a rogue is that negating only the miss chance from concealment without removing the concealment itself doesn't enable you to sneak attack the target, which is unfortunate. I do think it is generally a strong weapon ability for its price, though.

That's an interesting observation---it suggests that the reliability of SA benefits from true seeing for example. Items are probably the best way to address this.

The miss chance imposed on the subject of blink when attacking others doesn't seem to be concealment, and SA specifically hates concealment, not miss chances. Hence, you apparently don't actually need to seeking ability to SA while subject to blink. However, you will benefit from seeking by hitting 20% more.

[Crake]

The Seeking ability is very broadly worded. It ignores all miss chances. That should include the miss chances for blinking.

Disagree, seeking is pretty clearly states as part of it’s rules text that it causes arrows to veer towards their targets, and that arrows shot into empty space still miss. Since blink’s miss chance is from shooting while ethereal, the square you end up shooting is an empty square, and thus seeking does not help.

Seeking would likewise not help against a blinking opponent beyond reducing the 50% miss chance to 20%, as if you could see your target normally, because that 20% miss chance represents their square just simply not being occupied while they are ethereal

[Anthrowhale]

I updated the OP again trying to summarize. That includes adding the approach below.

Overall, it seems like the Warlock approach is plausibly best as it can basically come online at level 1 and as an approach hide works well even into epic.

Other approaches welcome.


<LA+0 fey> Martial Wizard 3/Rogue 1/Targeteer Fighter 1/Unseen Seer <n>

Feats:
1. Point Blank Shot
Wizard 1: Rapid Shot
3. Assume Supernatural Ability[Pixie, Greater Invisibility]
Fighter 1: Arrow Swarm
6. Quickdraw
9. Craven

Items:
Alchemical Fire (or variants)

Alter Self[Pixie] for Greater Invisible, and then use iteratives with sneak attacks to deal substantial damage.