Wizard duel questions

[herrhauptmann]

Two things came up in a game the other day, and I wanted to check if someone knew the answer.

1. Abjurers with the arcane ward. If they take a small amount of damage that only impacts their arcane ward without causing damage to their body, do they still have to make a concentration check?

2. Counterspells. In a 2 on 2 wizard duel, I understand that if wizard 1 casts a spell, wizard 2 can counterspell, and potentially wizard 3 could counterspell wizard 2s counterspell; allowing wizard 1 to finish their spell. But what if there's only two wizards?

Wizard 1 casts fireball, Wizard 2 counterspells, that's normal. But can Wizard 1 counterspell the casting of Wizard 2 AND get their fireball out? To me, it doesn't seem possible for to interrupt your own spell to cast a second, and still get to finish both.

[Rukelnikov]

Two things came up in a game the other day, and I wanted to check if someone knew the answer.

1. Abjurers with the arcane ward. If they take a small amount of damage that only impacts their arcane ward without causing damage to their body, do they still have to make a concentration check?

2. Counterspells. In a 2 on 2 wizard duel, I understand that if wizard 1 casts a spell, wizard 2 can counterspell, and potentially wizard 3 could counterspell wizard 2s counterspell; allowing wizard 1 to finish their spell. But what if there's only two wizards?

Wizard 1 casts fireball, Wizard 2 counterspells, that's normal. But can Wizard 1 counterspell the casting of Wizard 2 AND get their fireball out? To me, it doesn't seem possible for to interrupt your own spell to cast a second, and still get to finish both.

RAW it works

[Unoriginal]

Inthink the rules say that if you are casting Spell A and starts casting Spell B, Spell A has to be abandonned.

Don't have the books in front of me right now, though.

[herrhauptmann]

RAW it works

That is so bizarre. You'd think there would be a sage advice or something shutting it down.

[solidork]

At my table...

1. The ward takes the damage and not the wizard, so no need for the save.

2. As long as they have their reaction, they can counter the counterspell. From a "how does that make sense, physically?" standpoint, its a somatic only spell so it does not strain my credulity that its a quick cutting gesture you can make in the middle of something else.

You're empowered to decide to play it however you like though. If you don't like counter-counterspelling then you can decide it works differently at your table, even if everyone is telling you that it should work. I wouldn't be too bent out of shape playing at a table that prohibited casting counterspell while casting another spell (or somehow made it more difficult) - its a ruling that cuts both ways, since now enemies can't do it to you either.

[Skrum]

I would encourage you to allow this, especially for duel purposes.

Without countering while casting another spell -

Wiz 1 casts slow. Wiz 2 counters it. Wiz 1's turn ends. Wiz 2 goes, and casts scorching ray. Wiz 1 counters it. And etc., till one of them runs out of level 3+ slots.

With countering -

Wiz 1 casts slow. Wiz 2 counters it. Wiz 1 now faces a choice: use his reaction to counter the counter, or save his reaction for Wiz 2's turn. If he uses it, but Wiz 2 succeeds on his saving throw, Wiz 1 will be exposed to whatever Wis 2 does. There's *far* more strategy in this scenario.

[Veldrenor]

Two things came up in a game the other day, and I wanted to check if someone knew the answer.

1. Abjurers with the arcane ward. If they take a small amount of damage that only impacts their arcane ward without causing damage to their body, do they still have to make a concentration check?

2. Counterspells. In a 2 on 2 wizard duel, I understand that if wizard 1 casts a spell, wizard 2 can counterspell, and potentially wizard 3 could counterspell wizard 2s counterspell; allowing wizard 1 to finish their spell. But what if there's only two wizards?

Wizard 1 casts fireball, Wizard 2 counterspells, that's normal. But can Wizard 1 counterspell the casting of Wizard 2 AND get their fireball out? To me, it doesn't seem possible for to interrupt your own spell to cast a second, and still get to finish both.

1) No, they don't have to make a concentration save. Arcane Ward says that when you would take damage the ward takes it instead. So as long as your ward is up you're not actually taking damage to trigger a concentration save.

2) RAW, in a 1-on-1 wizard duel wizard 1 can counter wizard 2's counter as long as 1) wizard 1 has their reaction, and 2) wizard 1 isn't casting a bonus action spell. But not every table follows RAW on that. At some tables it's cool. At some tables it's not allowed. And at some tables it's only allowed if wizard 1 is casting a spell that doesn't already require somatic components.

[TyGuy]

Make sure you ban or allow dragons across the board for shapechange. Don't allow the door to be opened on BS semantics about pink dragons and purple dragons.

[Rukelnikov]

That is so bizarre. You'd think there would be a sage advice or something shutting it down.

The Sage Advice Compendium confirms that's how its intended to work:


Can you cast a reaction spell on your turn?
You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen:
Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball

As others said though, if you don't like this interaction don't allow it. I think its fine though, cause otherwise a wizard duel will never have any spell as each would counter the other all the time, none being able to get a spell off, this way though:

Wizard A casts Fireball
B counters
A counters the counter
A got their spell off

if B gets to act, A has no reaction left, so he can't counter B's spell, and B will get their spell off as well.

[eversilentone]

How does the Fireball+Counterspell combo work with "a spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action"? Does the bolded part only apply to bonus action spells? I had assumed (perhaps incorrectly) it would include reaction spells too.

[Rukelnikov]

How does the Fireball+Counterspell combo work with "a spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action"? Does the bolded part only apply to bonus action spells? I had assumed (perhaps incorrectly) it would include reaction spells too.

It applies to reaction spells the same way it applies to regular action spells.

If you cast a spell as a bonus action, then the only other possible spells you can cast that turn are 1 action cantrips.

[eversilentone]

So if you cast a bonus action spell you can't cast a reaction spell (e.g. no Misty Step/Counterspell), but if you cast an action spell you can (as per the Fireball/Counterspell example)?

[Rukelnikov]

So if you cast a bonus action spell you can't cast a reaction spell (e.g. no Misty Step/Counterspell), but if you cast an action spell you can (as per the Fireball/Counterspell example)?

Yup.

Note that it only applies to your turn. You can Misty Step on your turn, throw an Eldritch Blast as your Action, end your turn, and then use Counterspell when the enemy Fiendlock casts Fireball.

[eversilentone]

Yup.

Note that it only applies to your turn. You can Misty Step on your turn, throw an Eldritch Blast as your Action, end your turn, and then use Counterspell when the enemy Fiendlock casts Fireball.

I appreciated that. I just took the Bonus Action spells as an indication of a hard limit of one non-cantrip spell per turn. I applied that to Action Surge too, though with what you've written, it would seem that Fireball>Action Surge>Fireball is fine?

[Rukelnikov]

I appreciated that. I just took the Bonus Action spells as an indication of a hard limit of one non-cantrip spell per turn. I applied that to Action Surge too, though with what you've written, it would seem that Fireball>Action Surge>Fireball is fine?

Yup, taking Ftr 2 for Action Surge once you have 9th levels spells is not an unusual recommendation in theorycrafting.

[eversilentone]

I appreciate the clarification - thanks. Seems like Wizard duels have a lot more depth than I thought, much less turn-based. And that I've been playing incorrectly for a long time lol

[Rukelnikov]

I appreciate the clarification - thanks. Seems like Wizard duels have a lot more depth than I thought, much less turn-based. And that I've been playing incorrectly for a long time lol

Glad to be of help!