Bard - Party face with some good combat mechanics

[Nibenay]

Hi all,

Disclaimer: I have never played bard in any edition since 2ed! But 5e seems interesting!

Me and my friends are about to start a group and I'd like to play the party face. The previous character was a light cleric with high cha (18) just for fun, and the DM is a long time player but new DM. He was pretty good at letting us use more non-combat skills (which tends to be not very highly appreciated when other DMs has a lot of dungeon crawl). So now I'd like to try playing a Bard and focus a little bit on social skills. At the same time I'd still want to be okay with combat as we WILL have to fight quite a bit and usually we tend to optimize the characters to a certain extent. the DM wants us to generally to NOT make super cheesy OP characters, and I have no problem with that.



====
some useful details
====


starting lvl 1, so having a plan for first 3-6 levels is ok for now.
its a 3 person party. 1 moon druid and 1 unknown.
Paladin is not allowed
it's a ravenloft-esque setting with undeads/werewolves and demons are likely encounters at higher levels.
the holy weapon of the "one" good deity is a spear, so shield and spear might be a nice future choice if weapons are required.



I can chose between 3 homemade races and the most relevant abilities mentioned

City dwelling human +2 cha, +1 other. Gets a free feat from a restricted list. No great weapon fighter or polearm master etc, but a good list to chose from such as diplomat and skillmastery.
Roaming human +2 cha, +1 dex. Advantage on perform when telling stories and tales.
Aasimar variant +2cha, +1wis. advantage on persuasion against humanoids. Resistance against Radiant/Necrotic can be nice vs undeads. Darkvision, which only 1 other race has in this setting. EDIT: I forgot to add inn that this race starts with an "advanced jump" allowing to add half normal move as jump distance. Eventually it can get flight.



my stats before modifiers, these can be moved around:
str: 5
dex: 15
con: 14
int: 8
wis: 14
cha: 16

so my questions are below:

1) Is pure bard ok for combat?
2) is multiclassing to hexblade (or other warlock) for cha-attack weapon (or just eldritch blast) in order to have some high stat attack worth it?
3) Alternatively sorcerer?
4) Is there a good way to buff AC as I might be forced to use light armor at higher levels, but medium will be ok if I have prof. Shield prof might be useful.

[Skrum]

This'll be fairly dependent on the DM's style, but if you know this is gonna be a more combat-heavy game (or even just have challenging combats), I would be very leery of going bard, especially with a three person group. Bards are fundamentally a support class. Having 33% of the group in a support role...yeah I think you're going to get better results with a more focused class. Bards have some moves, but they are not a combat-focused class. You're gonna do a lot of "umm move 30 ft, cast vicious mockery, use bardic inspiration." That does not pull nearly the same weight as one of the other full casting classes or even a martial class spec'd for damage.

But, you know the DM, and presumably have had a session 0. If this is going to be more RP/intrigue, bard will do great.

2) multiclassing hexblade is great, if you have a plan for it. Just getting Cha for your melee attacks does not make you a melee combatant. Valor bard is practically required here, but even then I anticipate you feeling awfully squishy. When enemies realize you're a spellcaster that's opting to stay on the front lines, that could get ugly

3) I would favor sorcerer, absolutely

4) No, not really. Buffing AC is usually getting heavy armor, use a shield, and then stack defensive reactions like the shield spell. This is exactly why I think you're gonna be quite squishy, and with a 3 person group, you're not exactly gonna be able to "slip into background" in quite the same way

[TyGuy]

1) Yes
2) No
3) No
4) Don't worry about AC. Let the moon druid soak damage and help your allies.

If the DM is going to ban paladin and ask that you don't build OP characters, then they're in no position to punish a PC with studded leather AC.

[animorte]

Definitely Bard over the other options (unless you're considering Celestial Warlock or Divine Soul Sorcerer). Druid is clearly going the tank route, otherwise, why play Moon?

As Bard, I think your goal is leaning into the support and skill role as much as you can. You'll have plenty out of combat stuff covered and you'll still be useful in combat, just not pulling extreme numbers.

Now onto that Warlock or Sorcerer. Both of them get their subclass at level 1 so you don't have to wait for your niche to be effective.
- If you're worried about being squishy, the Celestial Warlock (perhaps well-renowned on this site, generalist) will keep you safe under many circumstances.
- If you want to meta-magic Twin buff your allies, the Sorcerer can provide more burst support than the Bard concept will. This will be a lot less useful outside of combat though.

All of these options will have an effective "party face" game, being focused on Charisma and depending on what skills you decide on.

[Skrum]

support and skill role as much as you can. You'll have plenty out of combat stuff covered and you'll still be useful in combat, just not pulling extreme numbers.


This is exactly why I would not recommend bard for a 3 person party. If the DM is pushing difficulty hard enough, I wouldn't even recommend bard in a 4 person party - their jack of all trades, master of none schtick is *really* at odds with turn-based combat. Being able to do 5 different useful things is not nearly as effective as having 2 very strong options when you're still only getting 1 action and 1 bonus action per turn.

[animorte]

This is exactly why I would not recommend bard for a 3 person party. If the DM is pushing difficulty hard enough, I wouldn't even recommend bard in a 4 person party - their jack of all trades, master of none schtick is *really* at odds with turn-based combat. Being able to do 5 different useful things is not nearly as effective as having 2 very strong options when you're still only getting 1 action and 1 bonus action per turn.
That's fair. Exactly why I recommended the other options.

I had another idea. OP could go with Order Cleric or Fey Wanderer Ranger do a good job with party-face, but Ranger requires level 3 for the subclass. Otherwise, they both have reliable skills without falling short in combat.

Also worth noting that controlling the enemy is just as, if not more, valuable. Control prevents damage too, just another for of support.

[RogueJK]

You can make a weapon-focused Bard work, but you'll want a few things:

1) Medium Armor and Shield proficiency (if melee-focused). This can come from Valor Bard, but their subclass abilities are lackluster. So a better route would either be a Hexblade 1 or 2 level dip, or the Moderately Armored feat as your Human Level 1 feat (which also happens to be a DEX half-feat too).

2) Extra Attack, or access to a SCAGtrip to scale your melee damage (if melee-focused). Valor and Swords Bards get eventual access to Extra Attack, or you can grab Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade via Magic Initiate Sorcerer, a Hexblade dip, or a racial cantrip from High Half Elf, High Elf, or Kobold.

3) A means to add additional damage to your attacks. Swords Bard has this as a subclass ability, as does Whispers Bard. (Note that both of them work with all weapon attacks, not just melee attacks. So you can also use them on a ranged Bardcher.) If going Ranged, Sharpshooter is also a good option for added damage. You could also use spells to achieve this, but that ties up your Concentration.

So good "Combat Bard" options could include:
Melee-focused City-Dwelling Human with the Moderately Armored Feat at 1, going Swords Bard and using medium armor, rapier, and shield, with the Dueling fighting style. Start DEX 15+1 (from Mod. Armored), STR 5+1, and CHA 16+2
Melee-focused any race Hexblade 1/Swords Bard X using medium armor, spear, and shield, taking Dueling Fighting Style at Bard 3 and Polearm Master at Bard 4. Start STR 5+1, CHA 16+2.
Melee-focused any race Hexblade 1/Whispers Bard X using medium armor, spear, and shield with Booming Blade. Start STR 5+1, CHA 16+2.
Ranged-focused Elf (or other race with racial Longbow proficiency) Swords Bard, taking Sharpshooter at Bard 4. Start DEX 15+1, CHA 16+2 Fighter 1/Swords Bard X is also an option here, if you don't want to be an Elf, and want access to Archery fighting style. Eventually grab stuff like Conjure Volley and Swift Quiver as Magical Secrets at Bard 10.
Melee-focused City-Dwelling Human with Moderately Armored, going Lore Bard, and using medium armor, rapier, and shield. Take Magic Initiate Sorcerer at Level 4 for Lightning Lure, Booming Blade, and Shield/Silvery Barbs/Absorb Elements, then pick up Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon as your Magical Secrets at Level 6. By Bard 6, you're basically an Alt-Cleric, using BB/LL + SG + SW as your go-to combat options. Start DEX 15+1 (from Mod. Armored), STR 5+1, and CHA 16+2.


Or, if you're okay with beefing up your melee output at the cost of your higher level spellcasting and Bard abilities, you could go Hexblade Bladelock 5 -> Whispers Bard 5 -> Bladelock X. This gets you Extra Attack and CHA-based attacks, while also letting you "Smite" with your Bardic Inspiration (5x/Short Rest at Bard 5), which stacks with Eldritch Smite too for when you really want to nova. About as close to a Paladin build as you can get without the Paladin class. Would work well with Polearm Master and a spear+shield.

Another multiclass combo to consider if you want to be a "Blaster Bard" instead of a weapon-user is Tempest Cleric 2/Lore Bard X. This gets your Bard armor and shield proficiency, plus some extra support spells like Bless and Protection from Evil, along with the ability to maximize thunder and lightning spell damage 1x/short rest. Bards already get access to Thunder AoE spells like Thunderwave and Shatter, and as a Lore Bard you can pick up additional stuff like Lightning Bolt and Call Lightning via Magical Secrets at Bard 6, and eventually add Chain Lightning via Magical Secrets at Bard 10. You'll be a spell level behind in spells known, but not spell slots, so you have room to upcast your Maximized Thunder/Lightning AoE spells. (For example, at Character Level 5 - Cleric 2/Bard 3 - you'll be able to throw out an upcast 3rd level Shatter for 32 damage, which is more than the average damage of a Fireball that a non-multiclassed caster gets access to at the same level.)


However, there are several other non-Bard good options for a combat-focused Face, even with Paladin off the table:

A) Pact of the Blade Warlock. Solid ranged and melee damage options. Can get Medium Armor and Shield either by going Hexblade, or by going Moderately Armored Human with a different Patron. Can be CHA-SAD if you go Hexblade, otherwise will need to invest in scaling STR/DEX. Still a full caster like the Bard. (But if not going Hexblade, a 1 level Fighter dip is appealing for CON saves, weapon/armor/shield proficiency, and a fighting style.)

B) Celestial Warlock Generalist: CHA-SAD, with solid ranged and melee damage options, plus lots of utility casting (handy with no Wizard), and makes a great combat healer too. Still a full caster like the Bard. See https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds/

C) Samurai Fighter. All the Fighter combat goodies, plus gets +WIS to Persuasion at Level 3. So with Proficiency, a high STR/DEX and CHA, and a moderate WIS, you're in good shape. You can pick up Skill Expert for Expertise to boost Persuasion even higher, or boost a secondary Face skill like Insight or Deception. Combine with GWM or Sharpshooter to boost your damage output. But unlike the Bard, not a caster.

D) Fey Wanderer Ranger. Lots of combat goodies, including spells to boost damage, and gets +WIS to all CHA checks at Level 3. With Face skill proficiency, a high CHA, and a moderate WIS, you're in good shape. You get one Expertise via Canny at Level 1 to boost a Face skill even higher. Skill Expert gets you Expertise in another. But unlike the Bard, only a half-caster.

[windgate]

This is exactly why I would not recommend bard for a 3 person party. If the DM is pushing difficulty hard enough, I wouldn't even recommend bard in a 4 person party - their jack of all trades, master of none schtick is *really* at odds with turn-based combat. Being able to do 5 different useful things is not nearly as effective as having 2 very strong options when you're still only getting 1 action and 1 bonus action per turn.

Odd, I go the opposite route with it...

3 People makes it difficult to cover skill checks adequately. Jack of all trades + Bardic inspiration means someone in the party has a decent chance of passing any check. As for combat. there are only three characters but by extension there will be fewer monsters a well. Disabling a single threat (ex: hold person or sleep) would make a big impact. (Edit: Druids have guidance as well so if your third person decides to go for a sneaky class fights will often happen on your terms due to people having really good stealth checks).

At low levels the moon druid is going to be carrying both damage and tanking roles (unless you are doing the UA version).

Edit2:
Ask your DM if you can use the new UA base form of the ranger. Use that revision with the Fey wanderer subclass that was already recommended.

[windgate]

4) No, not really. Buffing AC is usually getting heavy armor, use a shield, and then stack defensive reactions like the shield spell. This is exactly why I think you're gonna be quite squishy, and with a 3 person group, you're not exactly gonna be able to "slip into background" in quite the same way

I agree partially. With three people, everyone will be taking attacks.

If you are willing to "waste" a feat. You could go for a bard subclass with medium armor and shield proficiency. The feat would be medium armor master (which would let you sneak around without disadvantage). IF you have 16 Dex, AC would be equal to Heavy armor wearers.

[Psyren]

I just wanted to disagree strongly with the folks discounting/dismissing Valor Bard as a weak option for this concept. It gets overshadowed a lot in typical balance discussions because Additional Magical Secrets from its core counterpart Lore is so strong for a 5th-man type of Bard, but in a situation like this where you have a smaller party and therefore might want more of a gish/frontline presence on your bard, or at the very least can expect to be targeted a lot, getting Medium Armor and Shields baked into the class is fantastic in the long run.

A number of the suggestions here are recommending that you go with a different bard and pick up Moderately Armored, but Valor not needing to do that in the first place lets you branch out and grab other powerful feats that much sooner - feats like Fey-Touched, or War Caster, or Resilient Con, or Crossbow Expert etc. And speaking of the latter, the weapon proficiencies from Valor Bard matter too - letting you switch-hit by giving you proficiency with martial weapons (as well as Extra Attack), so you can much more easily have a strong ranged weapon handy when that's a better option for a given fight than sticking with melee. (And keep in mind that defaulting to ranged might be a good idea anyway given your extremely low Strength - a lot of Strength saves and checks are delivered via melee.)


TL;DR Valor is not only fine for this, it could easily make you a better bard when you have stronger defenses protecting both you and your concentration than other bards in this situation might.

[Skrum]

I just wanted to disagree strongly with the folks discounting/dismissing Valor Bard as a weak option for this concept. It gets overshadowed a lot in typical balance discussions because Additional Magical Secrets from its core counterpart Lore is so strong for a 5th-man type of Bard, but in a situation like this where you have a smaller party and therefore might want more of a gish/frontline presence on your bard, or at the very least can expect to be targeted a lot, getting Medium Armor and Shields baked into the class is fantastic in the long run.

A number of the suggestions here are recommending that you go with a different bard and pick up Moderately Armored, but Valor not needing to do that in the first place lets you branch out and grab other powerful feats that much sooner - feats like Fey-Touched, or War Caster, or Resilient Con, or Crossbow Expert etc. And speaking of the latter, the weapon proficiencies from Valor Bard matter too - letting you switch-hit by giving you proficiency with martial weapons (as well as Extra Attack), so you can much more easily have a strong ranged weapon handy when that's a better option for a given fight than sticking with melee. (And keep in mind that defaulting to ranged might be a good idea anyway given your extremely low Strength - a lot of Strength saves and checks are delivered via melee.)


TL;DR Valor is not only fine for this, it could easily make you a better bard when you have stronger defenses protecting both you and your concentration than other bards in this situation might.

I don't disagree, and if the OP is pretty committed to bard, this would be a very solid pick.

For this archetype though, I would probably favor something like Earth Genasi Eldritch Knight with Ritual Caster. Doesn't have the skills like the bard does, but far stronger in combat and honestly better utility/OoC spells.

[Waazraath]

I think valor bard could work well within these requirements.

One thing though: with Strength 5, you might want to check your DM on if he enforces carrying capacity (cc). That's 75 lb. with str 5, so if you go for a route where you wear medium armor (40 lb.), a shield (6 lb.), wield a rapier (2lb.), have a longbow (2lb), 20 arrows (1 lb.) and clothes (3lb.), you're at 54 already. Some standard aventuring equipment (bedroll, rations, torches, a backpack, extra set of clothes, a rope, backup weapons, tools, some musical instruments (mhhh what was the class again)) and you are already (close to) exceeding your max cc. If you like some potions, gadgets like grappling hooks, caltrops, alchemist fire, holy water, manacles, a crowbar): too bad.

Fifth edition mostly did away with bookkeeping with very generous cc, but with Str 5 I'd really look for options that don't require armor, unless your DM handwaves it.

[Psyren]

I think valor bard could work well within these requirements.

One thing though: with Strength 5, you might want to check your DM on if he enforces carrying capacity (cc). That's 75 lb. with str 5, so if you go for a route where you wear medium armor (40 lb.), a shield (6 lb.), wield a rapier (2lb.), have a longbow (2lb), 20 arrows (1 lb.) and clothes (3lb.), you're at 54 already. Some standard aventuring equipment (bedroll, rations, torches, a backpack, extra set of clothes, a rope, backup weapons, tools, some musical instruments (mhhh what was the class again)) and you are already (close to) exceeding your max cc. If you like some potions, gadgets like grappling hooks, caltrops, alchemist fire, holy water, manacles, a crowbar): too bad.

Fifth edition mostly did away with bookkeeping with very generous cc, but with Str 5 I'd really look for options that don't require armor, unless your DM handwaves it.

All of this is true and valid, but I wanted to point out that the major benefit of Moderately Armored/Valor is the shield proficiency moreso than medium armor. With 16+ Dex, OP would probably have wanted to stick with light armor anyway even without the abysmal strength score.

(I'd also consider swapping the 5 into Int and the 8 into Str - being a little dumber wouldn't hurt a Valor Bard nearly as much as not being able to carry their gear.)

[RogueJK]

I just wanted to disagree strongly with the folks discounting/dismissing Valor Bard as a weak option for this concept.

Valor's baked-in Medium Armor and Shield are great. Combat Inspiration, not so much. It's right about the worst Inspiration-related subclass ability.

Since they have an easy means to get a free feat at Level 1 anyway with the City Dweller Human, I'd much rather have the significantly better subclass features of the Swords/Whispers/Lore Bard and spend the feat on Moderately Armored to gain armor/shield proficiency and round up DEX to 16. (Or dip Hexblade for armor/shield, plus CHA-SADness, plus a better ranged attack option, plus Shield and a short rest slot, plus Hexblade's Curse, plus...)

Plus, with this route you'd have armor and shield proficiency right from the start at Level 1, rather than having to wait until Level 3 to gain those proficiencies.

[Psyren]

Everything Valor does, Swords does better... except using a shield.

I disagree with this too, and I'm not sure where the belief that Swords > Valor came from. Even putting aside the worse defenses without the feat tax, which is a problem compounded by OP's small party size, Swords and Valor actually get the same damage boost most rounds, the latter just does it through their allies and without being forced to use their attack action to activate it. Frankly though, you should be spending your BI dice on your allies rather than yourself anyway, especially at early levels before FOI.


Since they have an easy means to get a free feat at Level 1 anyway with the City Dweller Human, I'd much rather have the significantly better subclass features of Swords/Whispers/Lore Bard and spend the feat on armor/shield proficiency and on rounding up DEX.

Plus, with this route you'd have armor and shield proficiency right from the start at Level 1, rather than having to wait until Level 3 to gain those proficiencies.

1) There's nothing wrong with saving an unnecessary feat tax by waiting two levels; 15 AC is fine for levels 1 and 2.

2) The OP hasn't actually elaborated on the other 1st-level feat options (including MA, which we don't actually know is on the table yet). Assuming it is, I'd expect things like Warcaster or Fey Touched to be available too, so that would definitely inform my decision.

[Nibenay]

Wow thanks for all the replies and seems it sparked a bit discussion. It's fairly late and I've not really read closely through every bit. but here are some thoughts from me that might be useful.

Social skills:
My first pick with be Aasimar-variant or Roaming-human due to advantage on the rolls by default. I'm leaning towards the Aasimar for thematic purposes and going with Eloquence bard for a safe 10 roll (Eloquence), expertise (Bard) and advantage on persuasion vs humanoids (Aasimar-variant). I'm just concerned it'll be a short career with all that focus on persuasion and less combat.

Stats:
The two human variants offers best stats +2cha+1dex both of them. I played the city-variant last time which worked nice as a Cleric due to some inherent bonuses towards religion.

Limited feats at lvl 1: It's quite a few except the most popular ones. Also any feat that gives a +stat normally, does not give that. Medium Armor Master is included, but only the city-human gets to chose from the restricted feat list. Feats at lvl 4 and up works as normal.

Combat:
I forgot to mention that the Aasimar starts out with "underdeveloped spectral wings" or something that allows for 50% of the movement speed to be added to a jump. I'm assuming this means I can jump 15ft+result of roll. So the Druid will tank and I was thinking to just get out of the way by abusing the jump movement. It should be noted that they may develop into "real" wings and offer flying movement later on at some unknown point, but only with light armor.

I do agree that with 3 players it's harder to hide in the background. Also depends what the 3rd guy picks. There is an off-chance that a 4th hexblade will join us, but he's just so busy in RL I count this as unlikely.

The DM will for sure pick on the STR score (although not unfairly so), so due to that I was thinking to go with light armor and maybe a bow or rapier (or spear as mentioned before). Here also comes into the option of having a good cantrip in Eldritch blast to have range and potentially not having to carry a bow.

Finally
I'm not hell-bent on playing Bard but the DM was good to let me be the face last time and the social skill mattered, it was good fun. That was a light Cleric with 18 wis and 18 cha. I would normally never "waste" an 18 on cha that really did nothing, but my rolls were insane so to not "overpower" my character compared to the others. I put 16 on dex with MA, which worked well! If not bard I'm tempted to pick a Warlock. Celestial would be perfect thematic fit but I find the abilities somewhat boring. Same with Divine Soul sorc, which I could easily combo with Paladin if it was allowed. (Playing Ancients Paladin/Divine Soul sorc as evil drow, its amazingly kick arse).

[windgate]

I think valor bard could work well within these requirements.

[/snip] One thing though: with Strength 5, you might want to check your DM on if he enforces carrying capacity [/snip].


I didn't even notice the bit about the strength score. People tend to be expected to acknowledge their dump stats when roleplaying (atleast when it comes to the later three attributes). A strength 5 person is WEAK. You are looking at a maximum limit of 75 pounds of carrying capacity here. Roleplaying that score as a melee character would be hard especially if they are already packing the typical 40+ lbs of gear in the starting equipment backpacks.

Edit:
Perhaps go with human and take magic initiate (wizard or sorcerer) for the free feat. Your character casts mage armor on himself each day which he learned after a longish life of being physically frail...

[Psyren]

Limited feats at lvl 1: It's quite a few except the most popular ones. Also any feat that gives a +stat normally, does not give that. Medium Armor Master is included, but only the city-human gets to chose from the restricted feat list. Feats at lvl 4 and up works as normal.

Thanks - could you elaborate on this at all? If none of the other starting options are good that would affect my recommendation.


Combat:
I forgot to mention that the Aasimar starts out with "underdeveloped spectral wings" or something that allows for 50% of the movement speed to be added to a jump. I'm assuming this means I can jump 15ft+result of roll.

While the 15 helps, assuming you interpreted that ability correctly, keep in mind your strength isn't great which could hurt your check.



The DM will for sure pick on the STR score (although not unfairly so), so due to that I was thinking to go with light armor and maybe a bow or rapier (or spear as mentioned before). Here also comes into the option of having a good cantrip in Eldritch blast to have range and potentially not having to carry a bow.

Spear isn't a finesse weapon (unless your DM changed that?) so a Hexblade dip will be mandatory if you want to go that route. Rapier and Bow will be fine however.

[windgate]

Another thought.

Swashbucker Rogue. Use a dagger and light armor to acknowledge your strength issues. The subclass gets benefits from your charisma score and the extra proficiencies will let you use your wisdom score too.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

This is exactly why I would not recommend bard for a 3 person party. If the DM is pushing difficulty hard enough, I wouldn't even recommend bard in a 4 person party - their jack of all trades, master of none schtick is *really* at odds with turn-based combat. Being able to do 5 different useful things is not nearly as effective as having 2 very strong options when you're still only getting 1 action and 1 bonus action per turn.

Except the 5e Bard is NOT a jack of all trades master of none. They're a Jack of All Trades Master of some as well.

Bards are in a place to potentially fill the Healer/Thief/Controller role almost simultaneously.

Generically a Bard ends up with 5 skills, 7 if you pick the right race, Choose a Background that gives you Thief Tools, there's the Expert covered.

Choose the right spells and they are a devastating battlefield controller AND Healer.

Now your Subclass can take it further and fill yet ANOTHER role for the party. In theory you grab Valor and now you're a Tank/Healer/Expert.

I mean if I REALLY wanted to just lean into being a "Jack of All Trades" while not being weak or a 5th party member.

1/2 Elf Bard 1/Warlock 1/Bard X

You now get to pick 7 skills of your choice plus either a language or a tool set to go with your Thief Tools and three instruments.

Standard array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 and we go: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16 At level 5 (Bard 4) you take Cha 18, at level 9 (Bard 8) War Caster, Level 13 (Bard 12) Charisma 20.

Aim for Halfplate and a Shield and whatever weapon you want thanks to a level of HexBlade. Now we're looking at an eventual AC of 19 with a good damage output from melee.

Don't even need to take Valor or Blades bard. Just use a Warlock Cantrip for Green Flame or Booming and use that. Choose your subclass for fun or enjoyment or pick another role to fill. Use your Expertises to round out the skills that normally need a good Dex.

Now you're a Tanky character with good AC, solid HP (d8 isn't great but a +3 Con is good) and solid damage output who can also open locks and disarm traps. And none of that touches their spellcasting at all. Pick up the healing stuff and then fill the openings with whatever you think will be the most fun.

[Corran]

1) Is pure bard ok for combat?
Yes.

2) is multiclassing to hexblade (or other warlock) for cha-attack weapon (or just eldritch blast) in order to have some high stat attack worth it?
Yes. It's difficult to waste a better personal defense and ranged attack in a small party.

3) Alternatively sorcerer?
As a dip instead of hexblade? No. Lack of AoE might hurt you a little in tier 2 if you dont go lore -> fireball, but I'd wait it out.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

1) Is pure bard ok for combat?
2) is multiclassing to hexblade (or other warlock) for cha-attack weapon (or just eldritch blast) in order to have some high stat attack worth it?
3) Alternatively sorcerer?
4) Is there a good way to buff AC as I might be forced to use light armor at higher levels, but medium will be ok if I have prof. Shield prof might be useful.

I apologize, you had specific questions and we've mostly derailed into general application.

1: Yes, Bards can make solid front line warrior, Controllers and archers.

2: If you want to be a weapon user I would strongly recommend it. It not only gives you the Cha-Attack but Medium Armor and Shields.

3: I would say no. Warlock gets you the best Attack Cantrip one way or another and let's you became SAD and gives you better armor. Sorcer provides none of that and delays your spell access.

4: As mentioned, Hexblade will immediately give you Medium and Shield. Your starting aim is a shield and then either Scalemail or Chain Shirt depending on if you care about stealth (AC of 17 or 18 with Disadvantage on Stealth)

As an aside, it's been mentioned that this could limit your AOE, but there's two angles for this. If you need BIG AOE, then yeah, Lore Bard and at level 7 (Bard 6) you pick Fireball. BUT, in a more narrow AOE option, take Green Flame Blade. That means that you always have the ability to hit 2 targets, either with Green Flame or Eldritch Blast.

[RogueJK]

Lack of AoE might hurt you a little in tier 2 if you dont go lore -> fireball, but I'd wait it out.

All Bards get access to stuff like Shatter and Synaptic Static for AoE blasting, plus other great Tier 2 AoE options like Slow and Hypnotic Pattern.

You don't really need to go Lore to get Fireball just to have an AoE option. (And Fireball would be like #12 down the list of Magical Secrets picks anyway.)

[Pixel_Kitsune]

All Bards get access to stuff like Shatter and Synaptic Static for AoE blasting, plus other great Tier 2 AoE options like Slow and Hypnotic Pattern.

You don't really need to go Lore to get Fireball just to have an AoE option. (And Fireball would be like #12 down the list of Magical Secrets picks anyway.)

Seconding this. Taking the fairly open to tweaking Tank/Expert/Heals and Utility build above. Take Lore and here are some ideas for furthering your abilities with the level 6 Magical Secrets:

Spirit Guardians: Why spend your 3rd level slot on 8d6 Damage once somewhere you aren't, when you can deal 3d8 damage to everything w/in 15' of you every round while also forcing them to deal with difficult terrain?

Spiritual Weapon: Cast it and Forget, an extra attack using your Charisma to hit and damage and bringing another 1d8 damage per round.

Revivify: Utility and normally a Cleric Tax, Your Moon Druid should handle this, but if you two decide they shouldn't you should.

Honorable Mention to Armor of Agathys, but since you took a Warlock Dip you already have this.

These can also lead to some interesting nonsense.

At level 10 lean into Paladin choices and grab Find Greater Steed and Holy Weapon. Spells aimed at Tier 3 and 4 paladins.

Summon yourself a Pegasus. Your Armor of Agathys and Spirit Guardians affect it as well as you. Hop off and not only are you the same vicious you always were but there's a flying swarm of Radiant Damage and difficult terrain that can wander the battlefield as needed.

Meanwhile Holy Weapon is a spell meant for a 17th level Paladin, so at level 11 (Bard 10) let's have your bard start getting the effect of a 1st level Paladin Smite every swing along with a Nova they can set off to deal more damage and blind everything around them.

[RogueJK]

Don't forget Counterspell. Bards make the best counterspellers outside of Level 10+ Abjurer Wizards, since they get to add half their Proficiency to the spellcasting check thanks to Jack of All Trades.

Then there's Aura of Vitality, which represents the best bang-for-the-buck in healing spells, able to heal 20d6 (average 70) total HP over the course of a minute with just one 3rd level slot. Aura of Vitality and Revivify are practically must-have picks for a Lore Bard who's filling the role of party healer.

Conjure Animals or Summon Undead are also solid options for a Lore Bard's 6th level Magical Secrets. Bards don't normally get access to summoning spells (other than Animate Objects, which kinda counts). Having extra meat shields around could be especially handy in a small party. Conjure Animals is the power play, but the Druid in this particular party already gets that. Whereas Summon Undead serves double-duty as both a combat spell as well as a utility/exploration spell, giving you the ability to summon a friendly Ghost for an hour who can fly and can pass through walls. It's also one of the only Summon spells that lets you summon an ally with long ranged attacks, like Skeletal's 150' Grave Bolt attack, for times when you want another ally in a long ranged ambush.


So Fireball is way down the list on 6th level Magical Secrets picks. For example, here are a bunch of potentially better picks than Fireball, in no particular order, and not counting stuff like Bless/Misty Step that can be easily gained via Fey Touched :
(Though of course it will vary depending on your style of play, character flavor, and party needs/makeup)
1) Conjure Animals
2) Summon Undead
3) Aura of Vitality
4) Find Steed
5) Revivify
6) Counterspell
7) Haste
8) Pass Without Trace
9) Spirit Guardians
10) Spiritual Weapon
11) Fly

Yep, about 11 other spells I'd consider before I'd start thinking about maybe taking Fireball.

And those are just the broadly useful ones. There are specific situations when I'd take additional spells ahead of Fireball, like Armor of Agathys on a frontliner Lore Bard, or Goodberry on a Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard 6, or Lightning Bolt/Call Lightning on a Tempest Cleric 2/Lore Bard 6, etc.

[Waazraath]

Another thought.

Swashbucker Rogue. Use a dagger and light armor to acknowledge your strength issues. The subclass gets benefits from your charisma score and the extra proficiencies will let you use your wisdom score too.

This makes sense imo, if not sold on Bard.

Additionally, to the OP: did you check 1 lvl hexblade dip with the DM? Cause I also see a 'non-cheesy' requirement, and for some dipping hexblade 1 level falls in to that category.


As for Fireball vs Spirit Guardians: do note though that Spirit Guardian is normally on a character wearing full plate and a shield, and then (in my experience) often utilized with taking the dodge action as well (together with a spirtual weapon bonus action). That works great, but for a lore bard without much of AC and without a decent con save that can be asking for failed concentration checks and having the spell prematurely ended.

[RogueJK]

As for Fireball vs Spirit Guardians: do note though that Spirit Guardian is normally on a character wearing full plate and a shield, and then (in my experience) often utilized with taking the dodge action as well (together with a spirtual weapon bonus action). That works great, but for a lore bard without much of AC and without a decent con save that can be asking for failed concentration checks and having the spell prematurely ended.

Full Plate is not needed on a frontline Cleric utilizing Spirit Guardians. The difference in AC between Medium and Heavy armor is 1 point. And most of discussion around Lore Bard in this thread has been about one who has access to Medium Armor and Shield proficiency, either via the Moderately Armored feat or a Hexblade dip. So their AC would be equivalent to any Cleric.

Like Bards, Clerics don't get CON save proficiency either, so just like the Lore Bard they'd need to make do with a moderate CON bonus until they can take Warcaster/Resilient CON to boost their Concentration.

Therefore, a Medium Armor Lore Bard can hang on the front lines with Spirit Guardians just as well as any Cleric.

However, I wouldn't do it with Light Armor alone.

[Waazraath]

Full Plate is not needed on a frontline Cleric utilizing Spirit Guardians. The difference in AC between Medium and Heavy armor is 1 point. And most of discussion around Lore Bard in this thread has been about one who has access to Medium Armor and Shield proficiency, either via the Moderately Armored feat or a Hexblade dip. So their AC would be equivalent to any Cleric.

Like Bards, Clerics don't get CON save proficiency either, so just like the Lore Bard they'd need to make do with a moderate CON bonus until they can take Warcaster/Resilient CON to boost their Concentration.

Therefore, a Medium Armor Lore Bard can hang on the front lines with Spirit Guardians just as well as any Cleric.

However, I wouldn't do it with Light Armor alone.

Concur, that 1 point of difference in AC isn't going to make the difference, and in the context of a medium armored bard with a shield I agree (with the usual caveat that it also depends on party composition, cause if a party is lacking in other long range capabilities I'd might prefer FB to SG even then) - but for this specific bard, as I mentioned earlier, medium armor will be quite a challenge with Str 5.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

The nastiest Spirit Guardians use I ever bothered with is a Crystal Dragonborn Grave Cleric leaning full into Radiant Damage.

They're currently still wearing Scalemail with a shield and due to luck of the dice I only have a +1 for Dexterity.

Spirit Guardians reaps havoc and holds the line perfectly well with only an 17 AC. And I'm not taking Dodge Actions, It's Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon + either Breath Attacks or Sacred Flame or Guiding Bolt (All flavored as Breath attacks).

Also, I'm curious, how does "Non-Cheese" automatically cause issue with a Hexblade dip?

All it takes is the tiniest bit of flavor to justify it if you're in a game where the DM isn't taking the route of "Build the character you want and shape the lore to it." A Shadar-Kai or a Shadar-Kai Half-Elf does the job all by itself. So does a Variant Human or Custom Lineage with the Shadow Touched Feats.

And I know I said Bard 1/Warlock 1/Bard X in my suggested build, but that was from the perspective of getting wide open skill options. If two of the skills you want happen to be in the Warlock list then there's no reason not to take Warlock 1/Bard X. And given that the ACTUAL lore for Warlocks has nothing to do with continuing agreements, only that you have already completed service for your patron, there's no flavor issues at all.

[Waazraath]

Spirit Guardians reaps havoc and holds the line perfectly well with only an 17 AC. And I'm not taking Dodge Actions, It's Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon + either Breath Attacks or Sacred Flame or Guiding Bolt (All flavored as Breath attacks).

Also, I'm curious, how does "Non-Cheese" automatically cause issue with a Hexblade dip?


Happy for you that it works out - based on the games I've played, I think an SG using character could get in trouble with that AC - but as always it depends - if you have a reliable frontline and enemies who don't focus ranged attacks on the SG-user in the backline, I'm sure it could work out fine.

As for Hexblade dips: dipping Hexblade 1 is often seen as cheesy. Of course it's possible to justify it with some background story, but the main problem people have with it is that it's a bad designed subclass if that gives far to much power to characters with a (1 or 2) level dip, especially to cha-based characters. I remember the Throwdowns at this site (optimization challenges) in which it was explicitly forbidden cause it limited creativity too much (as in: it was so powerful that it was overused). Regardless on personal opionns on the matter, it's something I'd recommend to check with the DM.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Happy for you that it works out - based on the games I've played, I think an SG using character could get in trouble with that AC - but as always it depends - if you have a reliable frontline and enemies who don't focus ranged attacks on the SG-user in the backline, I'm sure it could work out fine.

Interesting, cause I'm usually dealing with super dangerous encounters. Most recent one was this character in a Curse of Strahd game and we accidently invoked the Swarm approach at the Winery (There's NPC Druids and Plant creatures spread out across the place but certain actions bring the entire army down on you at once). Was fielding multiple attacks a round and doing just fine. While a +1 to AC is a significant issue it's not insurmountable.

Also, my example was a character using sub-optimal medium armor AND with a sub-optimal Dexterity. Put that same build with Halfplate and a +2 Dex and we're at AC 19. Not at all a bad number.


As for Hexblade dips: dipping Hexblade 1 is often seen as cheesy. Of course it's possible to justify it with some background story, but the main problem people have with it is that it's a bad designed subclass if that gives far to much power to characters with a (1 or 2) level dip, especially to cha-based characters.

It makes Charisma characters SAD. Something Str, Dex, Int and Wis character already get to have the advantage of. It grants medium armor and shields, something that can be picked up with a dozen classes. Genuinely don't see the argument that it's more powerful than a Cleric with the Nature Domain or Magic Initiate Druid being able to use Wisdom for everything. Heck it's worse because it's MC dip instead of just a Class, or maybe a Feat.

The rule of "Ask the DM" is a given for any and every table. But to claim it's unrealistic or automatically cheesy is a step too far. This isn't "I took 2 levels of Fighter for a Style and Action surge because I want them but my character never shows any type of martial interest or training." I gave a few casual answers that give real background for it.

That's without going into the fact that so many people keep misunderstanding a Warlock as being like a Cleric where you're actively in service to your Patron. You CAN be, sure, but the assumed Lore is you already did your service, you're done and you have the keys to your power.