Community Inquiry: What do you want from a Summoner Class?

[BerzerkerUnit]

Aloha all!
I'm Matt, I've designed dozens of homebrew classes and the Summoner is something I always struggle with. Full Casters have so much in their kit that summoning is a great option, but just an option.

I know what I want, but what do you members of the D&D playing community want from a class whose core means of combat and exploration is summoning creatures to do their bidding or fight for them?

Edit: below you’ll find a link to the draft of the summoner class. I’ve used a 1D&D format and refer to elements of the 1D&D play test such as the find familiar spell. It maybe best to familiarize yourself with that for clarity. Thanks!

1. Is there a narrative element you want baked in? Like defeating creatures, making pacts, collecting their souls etc as a prereq to summoning?

2. Is there a particular aesthetic you prefer from myth or pop culture?

-2a. Would you want subclasses to lean into different aesthetics or be malleable enough to fit any aesthetic? Like pokemon training and King Solomon's sorcery from 3000 years of longing have some parallels.

3. Do you prefer the template spells from Tasha's/Fizbans or Monster Manual statblock summons?

4. Do you want the summoner to be a caster or have some kind of Summoning Feature? Even if we use the Tasha's era summoning spells, sacrificing spellcasting warrants finding other ways to buff it.

5. Mechanics for fielding multiple summons? As I look at the 1D&D Find Familiar spell it's simultaneously more and less powerful than previous iterations and if we're sticking with Tasha's era spells, it's all you've got for 2 levels. I have an idea on how to make it work, but I'd like suggestions.

Those are some of the questions I'd like you, the player or DM to answer. Any input is appreciated!

[Kane0]

Aloha all!
I'm Matt

You fool! You have revealed your true name!


Anyways, answers are all my opinion:

1. A strong thematic connection is pretty important, otherwise it just becomes a 'play X instead' situation. If it's just 'summoner', then there isn't any flavor to really justify it even if there is a mechanical space for it to exist.

2. Not off the top of my head, 'guy who magics up others to do things for him' is pretty broad on it's own (see above, you really want to avoid 'generic')
2a. One for one big summon/pet, one for swarms of little summons (or a literal swarm), one for merging with your summon (or sharing HP pool, the gishy one), one for expendable summons (limited duration, explode when they die or something). Alternatively, can subclass out via creature types. A slime summoner would be very different from a celestial summoner. Can probably fit in a dual-selection here like the warlock's Patron and Boon. There is so much you can do with the warlock framework its not funny.

3. Personally Tasha's summons are good, generic-ish statblock with one or two traits that are more specific to what you're doing is easier to manage than paging through a book, although using the Monster Manual like a literal spellbook is an interesting concept in it's own right. Room for both, especially with subclasses.

4. Half-casting at most, with a separate class resource for their summoning. Preferably mixture of short and long rest resourcing,

5. Shared HP between whatever you place on the field is one way to limit them in a meaningful and manageable way. Also if you dont give cantrips and/or meaningful weapon attacks you have a lot more space to use summons as proxies for your at-will attacks (say one attack with primary summon, bonus action familiar or something).

[BetweenComments]

Aloha all!
I'm Matt, I've designed dozens of homebrew classes and the Summoner is something I always struggle with. Full Casters have so much in their kit that summoning is a great option, but just an option.

I know what I want, but what do you members of the D&D playing community want from a class whose core means of combat and exploration is summoning creatures to do their bidding or fight for them?

1. Is there a narrative element you want baked in? Like defeating creatures, making pacts, collecting their souls etc as a prereq to summoning?

2. Is there a particular aesthetic you prefer from myth or pop culture?As Kane said, I'm not very picky but I want something. The two dedicated summoners we have in base 5e (conjuration and shepherd) are generic to the extreme and thematically hard to build character around as a result. As for pop culture, I'd perfer a lean away from animals/pokemon/digimon/etc as Druid kinda already covers that, if poorly. Some type of demon summoner where maybe each sin is a template would be cool as despite Warlock we really lack that thematic space. Maybe subclasses describe your relationship with the demons? Like if you made a contract, enslave them, are a servant of them, want to redeem them, etc etc


-2a. Would you want subclasses to lean into different aesthetics or be malleable enough to fit any aesthetic? Like pokemon training and King Solomon's sorcery from 3000 years of longing have some parallels.I could see with either working, tbh go with whatever fits the class idea best.


3. Do you prefer the template spells from Tasha's/Fizbans or Monster Manual statblock summons?Templates by a mile. Choosing specific creatures runs into so many issues with look up times and poor balancing of CR. By contrasts templates give a clear balance point and are easy to use as a player.


4. Do you want the summoner to be a caster or have some kind of Summoning Feature? Even if we use the Tasha's era summoning spells, sacrificing spellcasting warrants finding other ways to buff it.I'd prefer it to be a class feature. Not only would this let you have an Invocation style system to customize what you summon, this lets you focus on the summon. If they were a full caster with spell summons this would quickly run into issues with the spellcasting dominating the class, and if they were a half caster I could see a lot issues with the summon's spell level. Plus if you use a class feature you could make the summoner person something like a half caster focused on supporting the more powerful summon.


5. Mechanics for fielding multiple summons? As I look at the 1D&D Find Familiar spell it's simultaneously more and less powerful than previous iterations and if we're sticking with Tasha's era spells, it's all you've got for 2 levels. I have an idea on how to make it work, but I'd like suggestions.

Those are some of the questions I'd like you, the player or DM to answer. Any input is appreciated!Please no multiple summons (except maybe find familiar). While the idea is cool, it is not fun at the (virtual) table and I know several DMs (and also frankly, myself) that allow homebrew but will veto anything vaguely like "I conjure 16 velociraptors".

I hope this helps!

[animorte]

If you season it right, anything can have good flavor.


As Kane said, I'm not very picky but I want something. The two dedicated summoners we have in base 5e (conjuration and shepherd) are generic to the extreme and thematically hard to build character around as a result. As for pop culture, I'd perfer a lean away from animals/pokemon/digimon/etc as Druid kinda already covers that, if poorly.
I second most of the thematic talk here, we want the summons to be more focused!

However, I want to touch on this suggestion. Taking inspiration from pop culture can give us really cool things like Wildfire Druid, Shadow Sorcerer, and Battlesmith Artificer. Each of them have a specific summon that they can do specific things with.


Please no multiple summons (except maybe find familiar). While the idea is cool, it is not fun at the (virtual) table and I know several DMs (and also frankly, myself) that allow homebrew but will veto anything vaguely like "I conjure 16 velociraptors".
I agree here as well, but I think it's worth mentioning something like the Flock of Familiars spell. That could be a good bar to set for the higher expectation on summoning more than 1.

Another way to account for higher numbers of summons without getting Shepherd ridiculous is through subclasses like Ancestral Barbarian, Spores Druid, and Swarmkeeper Ranger. (Honorable mention goes to the Cloak of Flies invocation.)

[Old Harry MTX]

Personally, I think I'm going against the tide a bit, but I don't really like classes with a specific background. I prefer to have the leeway of a wizard or a fighter. I'm also not a big fan of templates, unless they are many and highly customizable.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Thanks so much for your feedback!

So please take a look at this non spell casting version: The Summoner (https://docs.google.com/document/d/17UXuY2ZzXaMgHWJdLjHkgLr-XJ1f9i14ZIbATh3tFjk/edit?usp=sharing)

As always, any feedback is appreciated.

[BetweenComments]

Overall I think this is a fairly good Summoner base idea, my main issue with it ironically is that I’m not sure how exactly to suggest balancing changes as it seems to be based on Onednd and as written at the moment I’d use a Fighter or Barbarian as a balancing point. Going to go through the various parts of it down below then suggest balancing based on 5e.

Oh also you might want to mention in the document this is based on Onednd rules as not everyone is familiar with the new Find Familiar and the like.


Summoner’s Engram
At 1st level you gain a Summoner’s Engram, a framework for channeling aetheric energies which appears as sigils in your preferred eye and on your preferred appendage. The Summoner’s Engram grants access to the Summoner Spell List. You can use it to cast any of the listed Cantrips or the spells of 1st level and higher as if you had used a spell slot of a level equal to half your Summoner level, rounded up.
The effective spell slot level must equal or exceed the level of a Summoner spell in order for you to cast it. Charisma is your Spellcasting Ability. You can use your Summoner’s Engram a number of times as shown on the Summoner Class Table. You regain 1 use after a short rest and regain all uses after a long rest.
Two issues here, one I assume cantrips are not supposed to drain your usages of Engram, however as written they do. Secondly, you need to include what your spell save and spell attack modifiers are. I’m assuming it’s a standard charisma calculation but it’s not listed here.


Battle Familiar
At 1st level, whenever you cast Find Familiar, the Familiar gains a bonus to its AC equal to your Proficiency bonus and temporary hit points equal to your Proficiency bonus + twice your Summoner level. The Familiar regains these temporary hit points at the end of any rest.
When you or a creature you have created or summoned with your Summoner’s Engram hits a target within your familiar’s reach, the Familiar deals an additional 1d8 damage of the type dealt by the familiar’s Otherworldy Scratch.
Ok, so I will be assuming this is constantly up as it does not require concentration. So post level 3 you will have this + a summon spell + (cantrip or weapon attack).


Cheer/Goad
Also at 2nd level you learn to urge creatures you’ve created or summoned with a Summoner spell to greater achievement. As a bonus action on your turn you can grant such a creature within 30 feet a 1d4 bonus to its next d20 test.
When a creature within 30 ft that can see or hear you fails a d20 test, you can use your reaction to grant them a 1d4 bonus. You can use this feature in this way a number of times equal to your Charisma bonus and regain all uses after a long rest.
Does the second paragraph apply to anyone or just summons?


Direct Control
At 5th level, when you take the Attack action you can forgo an attack you would make to have a creature you have summoned or created with your Summoner Engram use its reaction to make one of its attacks at a target in range or within its reach instead.
Additionally, when you take the dodge, dash, or disengage action, you can choose to have any creatures you have created or summoned with your Summoner Engram do the same on their turn.
Ok... so the offensive implications of this worry me a bit, see below.

Ok, the higher level features look generally good, however until the final two they don't really change the class's base turn, so I'm going to skip over for brevity (and also I don't have enough play around level 15-20 to comment on balance).

So the Specialist functions about how I expect it to for a 'beast tamer'ish summoner. It is very much though a Dm determined power level subclass.

Aibo is fairly interesting as the fighting side by side option. Triple advantage on nearly any check is... really really strong though. I'd consider nerfing this? As it stands you can have your familiar gift anyone in your party triple advantage on an attack or skill check for nearly free.

Incarna is probably what I would play for this class (it gives me FF16 vibes). As a question, how does concentration work with this? Like, if your Summon gets hit, do you need to make a saving throw? If not, I'd recommend making it also to where you cannot use this on your familiar, as that would result in issue where it becomes impossible to break your concentration. If so, you probably want to boost this subclass's con save as they will have issues staying in form. I'm also assuming Direct Control is redundant with this subclass, which I am fine with.

Divine Panoply needs some form of item summon limit and/or expiration time.

Second, Demigodhood needs some form of really heavy nerf. As it stands its an infinite source of d6 bardic inspirations on a reaction.

Ok, doing my damage calculation for the base class, I'm assuming that the damage is equal to a Summoner who used their Engram to summon Find Familiar and the most damaging summon spell available to them ahead of time, then used an action to cast Firebolt or Direct Control.



level
damage


1
12=1d10+(1d8+2)


3
22.5=1d10+(1d8+3)+(1d8+4+1) (Beast)


5
34.5=(1d8+4)+2x(2d6+6)(Fey)


7
51.5=(1d8+5)+3x(2d6+7)(Fey)



This is.... a lot. Like for context around level 5, a wizard who used a 3rd level summoning spell before combat, would need to burn a 2nd or 3rd level spell to deal your sustained damage, and tbh a fighter would need to probably action surge to beat you. Can I recommend that you get rid of Direct Action? It would normalize these damage values and quite frankly 3rd level summons is enough of a bonus, this class really doesn't need a class feature at that level.

Edit: Thinking on this, it probably means Incarna has massive issues as it allows you to functionally have the damage of two summon spells. I'd maybe change it so that you can use any action you normally could while in the Summon, then one action+bonus action the summon could on your turn. Make the main utility of the subclass before level 6 its defensive power and the lack of concentration to worry about.

[Kane0]

I like the chakras angle, might be worth leaning into that. Makes me think of alchemists being build around the four humours.

[LibraryOgre]

A pet peeve of mine that isn't really a problem in D&D but: Summoning should not mean "I change form into a summoned creature for a bit."

A dedicated summoner class should make summoned creatures better than someone else casting the same spell. They should have class abilities that actively improve summoned creatures; a Shepherd druid is a good example of this, with a minor summon that they can use to aid allies, and getting a 6th level ability that simply makes summoned creatures better than those summoned by other druids.


1. Is there a narrative element you want baked in? Like defeating creatures, making pacts, collecting their souls etc as a prereq to summoning?

2. Is there a particular aesthetic you prefer from myth or pop culture?

-2a. Would you want subclasses to lean into different aesthetics or be malleable enough to fit any aesthetic? Like pokemon training and King Solomon's sorcery from 3000 years of longing have some parallels.

3. Do you prefer the template spells from Tasha's/Fizbans or Monster Manual statblock summons?

4. Do you want the summoner to be a caster or have some kind of Summoning Feature? Even if we use the Tasha's era summoning spells, sacrificing spellcasting warrants finding other ways to buff it.

5. Mechanics for fielding multiple summons? As I look at the 1D&D Find Familiar spell it's simultaneously more and less powerful than previous iterations and if we're sticking with Tasha's era spells, it's all you've got for 2 levels. I have an idea on how to make it work, but I'd like suggestions.

To your questions:
1 and 2a) I don't require a specific narrative element or aesthetic, but I think subclasses specializing in different KINDS of summons is a good idea. You might have the Feyspeaker, the Diabolist, the Theurgist, and the Elementalist, all of whom get specialized bonuses with a specific kind of summon... a Feyspeaker CAN summon demons or angels or elementals, but all their subclass bonuses specifically revolve around summoning fey.

3) Templates should be the default; I don't have a problem with the Monster Manual Summons, but they require someone to go in and make summoning cards... "I will frequently summon dinosaurs, so here's a chunk of dinosaur statblocks."

4) I prefer a spellcaster; it lets them have some other features, too (for example, your summoner might also have Bless, to make their summons more effective). If not a dedicated spellcaster, I'm always a fan of using the Warlock as a basis... I've got a few spells I can cast, but a lot of my power comes from Invocations. I've got two separate aspects to my power (for warlocks, Patron and Pact), each of which add something unique to my character, and open up other options.

5) For me, I would give them a "tactical summons" option. They can cast certain spells as an action, but instead of an hour with concentration, it lasts a minute with no concentration. So, I might cast Summon Fey and keep concentration on it for an hour, but meanwhile, I will cast Summon Fey as a tactical spell, and THAT fey creature stays only for a minute. I would also give them a ritual option; casting a spell as a ritual, so they require no spell slot.

If going with a Warlock as a base class template (it is my default; I love pact magic, I love the options opened up by the combination of patron, pact, and invocations), you might make these two separate "pact boons"... the tactical summons being similar to the pact of the blade, the ritual summons being similar to the pact of the tome, and the pact of the chain being more or less the same... you have a special summons that gives you a long-term companion better than other people's long term companion (every summoner can cast Find Familiar; you get it for free, and it isn't just a minor spirit, but uses a better stat block).

For an early summon that they can do, I would consider allowing EVERYONE a tactical find familiar option... you spend a slot, you summon a familiar with an action that lasts for 1 minute. You might even make it their "eldritch blast"... the cool cantrip that most of them know, that is enhanced by various "incantations." This incantation gives them Temporary HP. This one makes their attacks a bonus action, instead of an action.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Overall I think this is a fairly good Summoner base idea, my main issue with it ironically is that I’m not sure how exactly to suggest balancing changes as it seems to be based on Onednd and as written at the moment I’d use a Fighter or Barbarian as a balancing point. Going to go through the various parts of it down below then suggest balancing based on 5e.

Oh also you might want to mention in the document this is based on Onednd rules as not everyone is familiar with the new Find Familiar and the like.

Thank you so much for your feedback! This was probably some of the best I've read. I'll go point by point. Also, feel free to comment on the gdoc at any time.

I mentioned 1d&d in point 5 of my OP, but I'll try to make it more explicit.


Two issues here, one I assume cantrips are not supposed to drain your usages of Engram, however as written they do. Secondly, you need to include what your spell save and spell attack modifiers are. I’m assuming it’s a standard charisma calculation but it’s not listed here.

Fixed.


Ok, so I will be assuming this is constantly up as it does not require concentration. So post level 3 you will have this + a summon spell + (cantrip or weapon attack).

Made this d8 once per turn.


Does the second paragraph apply to anyone or just summons?

Yes anyone though in a more limited capacity, I made it more explicit in the text.


Ok... so the offensive implications of this worry me a bit, see below.

I've addressed some of this as explained. I'd love to see your numbers after a reevaltuation.


Ok, the higher level features look generally good, however until the final two they don't really change the class's base turn, so I'm going to skip over for brevity (and also I don't have enough play around level 15-20 to comment on balance).

Developers have stated that high level play is not attentive to balance concerns due to the low #s actually playing at those levels (a self fulfilling prophecy). I think the limited variety of spells makes this less of a problem for this summoner.


So the Specialist functions about how I expect it to for a 'beast tamer'ish summoner. It is very much though a Dm determined power level subclass.

You are correct to a degree. Technically, TECHNICALLY, at level 6 you could summon any of your spell based summons, hybridize them, trap them in the trinket (they're willing) and go from there. That is a way around counterspelling, but not much else.


Aibo is fairly interesting as the fighting side by side option. Triple advantage on nearly any check is... really really strong though. I'd consider nerfing this? As it stands you can have your familiar gift anyone in your party triple advantage on an attack or skill check for nearly free.

I think PBxLong rest is limited enough.


Incarna is probably what I would play for this class (it gives me FF16 vibes).

Good!


As a question, how does concentration work with this? Like, if your Summon gets hit, do you need to make a saving throw? If not, I'd recommend making it also to where you cannot use this on your familiar, as that would result in issue where it becomes impossible to break your concentration.

That is intended to be the primary strength of the class since you're in combat (likely melee). Most summons are painfully short on HP with terrible ACs, so the direct feed from Life Channel is intended to keep them up, but this is a d8 HD class so it's not infinite and you can only heal with HD.


If so, you probably want to boost this subclass's con save as they will have issues staying in form. I'm also assuming Direct Control is redundant with this subclass, which I am fine with.

There will likely be instances where you don't want to be Incarnated, and direct channel may be preferred at those times (like if you're trying to stay hidden and use a summon as a distraction).


Divine Panoply needs some form of item summon limit and/or expiration time.

Added "for the duration of the spell." A free heal potion is not a big deal and at the higher levels Plate armor will be comparable to many summons AC, though taking Heavy Armor Master for it will be awesome.


Second, Demigodhood needs some form of really heavy nerf. As it stands its an infinite source of d6 bardic inspirations on a reaction.

Made it Cha bonus / rest. It's comparable to lore bard but you aren't a true 9th level caster on top of it. You don't have access to it when not incarnated anyway.


Ok, doing my damage calculation for the base class, I'm assuming that the damage is equal to a Summoner who used their Engram to summon Find Familiar and the most damaging summon spell available to them ahead of time, then used an action to cast Firebolt or Direct Control.



level
damage


1
12=1d10+(1d8+2)


3
22.5=1d10+(1d8+3)+(1d8+4+1) (Beast)


5
34.5=(1d8+4)+2x(2d6+6)(Fey)


7
51.5=(1d8+5)+3x(2d6+7)(Fey)



This is.... a lot. Like for context around level 5, a wizard who used a 3rd level summoning spell before combat, would need to burn a 2nd or 3rd level spell to deal your sustained damage, and tbh a fighter would need to probably action surge to beat you. Can I recommend that you get rid of Direct Action? It would normalize these damage values and quite frankly 3rd level summons is enough of a bonus, this class really doesn't need a class feature at that level.

Edit: Thinking on this, it probably means Incarna has massive issues as it allows you to functionally have the damage of two summon spells. I'd maybe change it so that you can use any action you normally could while in the Summon, then one action+bonus action the summon could on your turn. Make the main utility of the subclass before level 6 its defensive power and the lack of concentration to worry about.

I limited access to Multiattack for Incarna so now your attack is one of the summons but you could Cantrip and can still Cheer/Goad etc as well.

Thank you so much for this evaluation! As I said above I'd really appreciate another damage eval with the new limits.

[BerzerkerUnit]

A pet peeve of mine that isn't really a problem in D&D but: Summoning should not mean "I change form into a summoned creature for a bit."

A dedicated summoner class should make summoned creatures better than someone else casting the same spell. They should have class abilities that actively improve summoned creatures; a Shepherd druid is a good example of this, with a minor summon that they can use to aid allies, and getting a 6th level ability that simply makes summoned creatures better than those summoned by other druids.



To your questions:
1 and 2a) I don't require a specific narrative element or aesthetic, but I think subclasses specializing in different KINDS of summons is a good idea. You might have the Feyspeaker, the Diabolist, the Theurgist, and the Elementalist, all of whom get specialized bonuses with a specific kind of summon... a Feyspeaker CAN summon demons or angels or elementals, but all their subclass bonuses specifically revolve around summoning fey.

3) Templates should be the default; I don't have a problem with the Monster Manual Summons, but they require someone to go in and make summoning cards... "I will frequently summon dinosaurs, so here's a chunk of dinosaur statblocks."

4) I prefer a spellcaster; it lets them have some other features, too (for example, your summoner might also have Bless, to make their summons more effective). If not a dedicated spellcaster, I'm always a fan of using the Warlock as a basis... I've got a few spells I can cast, but a lot of my power comes from Invocations. I've got two separate aspects to my power (for warlocks, Patron and Pact), each of which add something unique to my character, and open up other options.

5) For me, I would give them a "tactical summons" option. They can cast certain spells as an action, but instead of an hour with concentration, it lasts a minute with no concentration. So, I might cast Summon Fey and keep concentration on it for an hour, but meanwhile, I will cast Summon Fey as a tactical spell, and THAT fey creature stays only for a minute. I would also give them a ritual option; casting a spell as a ritual, so they require no spell slot.

If going with a Warlock as a base class template (it is my default; I love pact magic, I love the options opened up by the combination of patron, pact, and invocations), you might make these two separate "pact boons"... the tactical summons being similar to the pact of the blade, the ritual summons being similar to the pact of the tome, and the pact of the chain being more or less the same... you have a special summons that gives you a long-term companion better than other people's long term companion (every summoner can cast Find Familiar; you get it for free, and it isn't just a minor spirit, but uses a better stat block).

For an early summon that they can do, I would consider allowing EVERYONE a tactical find familiar option... you spend a slot, you summon a familiar with an action that lasts for 1 minute. You might even make it their "eldritch blast"... the cool cantrip that most of them know, that is enhanced by various "incantations." This incantation gives them Temporary HP. This one makes their attacks a bonus action, instead of an action.

Aloha, thank you so much for your reply.

There’s a link above to the draft of the class.
It uses spells but not slots. A subclass offers the MM summons option with fairly harsh limits of single type, limited CR, and limited number.

Almost everything uses concentration and that’s intended to be a strong limiting factor in addition to the fairly low HP and AC of the summon spells available.

[BetweenComments]

Thank you so much for your feedback!Glad it was useful!, just going to go back through this...




Made this d8 once per turn. So... I'm a bit embarrassed to say I initially misread this as only affecting your familiar, so my previous calcs were effectively with this change.




Yes anyone though in a more limited capacity, I made it more explicit in the text.Thanks! The additional clarity is always useful.


Developers have stated that high level play is not attentive to balance concerns due to the low #s actually playing at those levels (a self fulfilling prophecy). I think the limited variety of spells makes this less of a problem for this summoner. Yeah, we don't have high level play because no one tests high level play because we don't have- Tis an unfortunate catch 22.



-Incarna changes-Looks good.




Thank you so much for this evaluation! As I said above I'd really appreciate another damage eval with the new limits.

Ok so my turn to be slightly embarrassed again as the previous calcs were effectively the same for this version. Going to do a calc with/without direct control to illustrate the difference.

...or ok that was still insufficent. Thinking what if we turn battle familiar into an enhancement to the find familiar spell only, and enforce a strict one summon limit.




level
current
no direct control
one summon
no direct control+one summon
Concentrating Warlock


1
12=1d10+(1d8+2)
12=1d10+(1d8+2)
12=1d10+(1d8+2)
12=1d10+(1d8+2)
13=1d10+1d6+4(Hex)



3
22.5=1d10+(1d8+3)+(1d8+4+1) (Beast)
22.5=1d10+(1d8+3)+(1d8+4+1) (Beast)
15=1d10+(1d8+4+1) (Beast)
15=1d10+(1d8+4+1) (Beast)
13=1d10+1d6+4(Hex)



5
34.5=(1d8+4)+2x(2d6+6)(Fey)
32.5=2d10+(1d8+4)+(2d6+6)(Fey)
26=2x(2d6+6)(Fey)
24=2d10+(2d6+6)(Fey)
26=2d10+2d6+8(Hex)


7
51.5=(1d8+5)+3x(2d6+7)(Fey)
48.5=2d10+(1d8+5)+2x(2d6+7)(Fey)
42=3x(2d6+7)(Fey)
39=2d10+2x(2d6+7)(Fey)
44=2d10+8+2x(1d10+7)(Aberration)



Ok, this is a lot better as we are a bit below a warlock's damage on most levels with the base class. Luckily for us, each subclass here should add damage in a tight enough range that I feel comfortable saying this class will always do similar damage to any subclass warlock with comparable magic items.

So my proposed changes are as follows:

1. Add a limit that you can ever only summon one creature with Summoner's Engram (at least until that higher level class feature).
2. Limit the effects of battle familiar to only ever effect Find Familiar.
3. Allow you to summon Find Familiar separately as a normal 1st level ritual spell, without the benefits of battle familiar. This allows you to have a cute scout without them breaking the damage calculations
4. Direct Control doesn't need to be removed however I will show what that would look like numbers wise.

[Old Harry MTX]

5) For me, I would give them a "tactical summons" option. They can cast certain spells as an action, but instead of an hour with concentration, it lasts a minute with no concentration. So, I might cast Summon Fey and keep concentration on it for an hour, but meanwhile, I will cast Summon Fey as a tactical spell, and THAT fey creature stays only for a minute. I would also give them a ritual option; casting a spell as a ritual, so they require no spell slot.

I like a lot this idea, it could also work as a class feature or as a dedicated spell (but always considering that a bard could learn it using Magical Secrets).

[BerzerkerUnit]

I like a lot this idea, it could also work as a class feature or as a dedicated spell (but always considering that a bard could learn it using Magical Secrets).

Aloha,

Thanks so much for your feedback!

Here's a link to the current working draft of the Summoner (https://docs.google.com/document/d/17UXuY2ZzXaMgHWJdLjHkgLr-XJ1f9i14ZIbATh3tFjk/edit?usp=sharing).

The class doesn't use spell slots and one of the goals was to strongly limit the ways in which you can field more than 1 summoned creature and your familiar. There is an 18th level feature that allows you to summon 2 as if you'd used a 5th level slot and bolster both with one of your summoning arts. a scaling Planar Binding does afford some army building options if you can afford it, but given its cost and potential for becoming a hazard via dispel magic you're running a high risk/reward strategy.

All of the Tasha's summon spells are 1 action casts, so tactical availability already exists. I'm also using the 1D&D familiar which is a slightly more combat worthy minion out of the gate.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Glad it was useful!, just going to go back through this...

...snip...

Ok so my turn to be slightly embarrassed again as the previous calcs were effectively the same for this version. Going to do a calc with/without direct control to illustrate the difference.

...or ok that was still insufficent. Thinking what if we turn battle familiar into an enhancement to the find familiar spell only, and enforce a strict one summon limit.




level
current
no direct control
one summon
no direct control+one summon
Concentrating Warlock


1
12=1d10+(1d8+2)
12=1d10+(1d8+2)
12=1d10+(1d8+2)
12=1d10+(1d8+2)
13=1d10+1d6+4(Hex)



3
22.5=1d10+(1d8+3)+(1d8+4+1) (Beast)
22.5=1d10+(1d8+3)+(1d8+4+1) (Beast)
15=1d10+(1d8+4+1) (Beast)
15=1d10+(1d8+4+1) (Beast)
13=1d10+1d6+4(Hex)



5
34.5=(1d8+4)+2x(2d6+6)(Fey)
32.5=2d10+(1d8+4)+(2d6+6)(Fey)
26=2x(2d6+6)(Fey)
24=2d10+(2d6+6)(Fey)
26=2d10+2d6+8(Hex)


7
51.5=(1d8+5)+3x(2d6+7)(Fey)
48.5=2d10+(1d8+5)+2x(2d6+7)(Fey)
42=3x(2d6+7)(Fey)
39=2d10+2x(2d6+7)(Fey)
44=2d10+8+2x(1d10+7)(Aberration)



Ok, this is a lot better as we are a bit below a warlock's damage on most levels with the base class. Luckily for us, each subclass here should add damage in a tight enough range that I feel comfortable saying this class will always do similar damage to any subclass warlock with comparable magic items.

So my proposed changes are as follows:

1. Add a limit that you can ever only summon one creature with Summoner's Engram (at least until that higher level class feature).
2. Limit the effects of battle familiar to only ever effect Find Familiar.
3. Allow you to summon Find Familiar separately as a normal 1st level ritual spell, without the benefits of battle familiar. This allows you to have a cute scout without them breaking the damage calculations
4. Direct Control doesn't need to be removed however I will show what that would look like numbers wise.

Alright, I changed the wording on Battle Familiar so the familiar itself doesn't benefit from the d8 (it was never intended to anyway), the first paragraph only ever affected the familiar. Typically, this means you're going to get 2d8 out of it at level 3 and above (when you can have a summoned beast). Given Hex and hunter's mark are the standard damage adds, this feels on par with a dual wielding ranger at level 1 since, while an enemy has the same option of breaking caster concentration, foes of the summoner have the additional option of killing the familiar. Conjure Lesser Demons I don't see as an issue because they're hostile to all and I would argue share the same turn, so one might get the bonus each round, but they might be as likely to attack the familiar itself. That makes using the familiar to attack as well a high risk, low reward scenario since using your own reaction denies you use of Life Channel to keep it alive (though you do get the free 1/day planar escape).

I see I had misread the spell and thought it retained the old "give up your action" warlock style rules that I modeled Direct Control on, but now its "use your reaction on its turn"... I guess that means it can't opportunity attack either?

I don't think the "1 creature" limit is viable. The Summoner, unlike other Mage classes, cannot front load damage (with Fireball or Shatter etc) and has very limited control options, so in that respect they are more like warriors in their contribution on the field, extra HP and targets for enemies to chew through, staying power through multiple fights. I think creating 2 separate summoning features for familiars and spells is unnecessarily confusing as would familiar based exceptions.

I also tweaked some features. I level gated some of the Summoning Arts, made Titanic Summons a high level art, move Twin Summon to 17, and made the capstone the much more boring but necessary "when you roll initiative you recover a use of your Summoner's Engram feature."

[MrStabby]

What I want from a summoner, above almost anything else, is speed.

I think many of us have seen the way in which druids or necromancer with multiple summons can slow down the game, both through their actions but also reactions and multiple independent saves all needing to be rolled.

Likewise we have seen the analysis paralysis of the player delving into splatbooks and monster manuals to find the optimal creature for the circumstances to summon.

For me a perfect summoner doesn't have these problems. Summons are powerful, but limited in number and must be preselected at the start of the day (players can agonise over summoner selection, but so far as possible let it happen between sessions).

Summoners also should get to use the summons for more than combat and should get non combat uses also.

[BerzerkerUnit]

What I want from a summoner, above almost anything else, is speed.

I think many of us have seen the way in which druids or necromancer with multiple summons can slow down the game, both through their actions but also reactions and multiple independent saves all needing to be rolled.

Likewise we have seen the analysis paralysis of the player delving into splatbooks and monster manuals to find the optimal creature for the circumstances to summon.

For me a perfect summoner doesn't have these problems. Summons are powerful, but limited in number and must be preselected at the start of the day (players can agonise over summoner selection, but so far as possible let it happen between sessions).

Summoners also should get to use the summons for more than combat and should get non combat uses also.

Aloha, thanks so much for your feedback!

Pls have a look at this class. It was a branching path from the Summoner class I linked up thread.

Stand Master (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NFSOLpt6mQyUlgeMAMad48E1ZN_Iis8S/view?usp=share_link)
https://media.tenor.com/XQWVeTsLxWMAAAAC/jojos-bizarre-adventure-ora-ora.gif
Limited # of summons, always just you and the creature. Creature doesn't get increased # of attacks, you just give up yours. Primary contributions in combat are the extra target and HP on the field. The tank is fairly sticky, the "utility/healer" is only 2 real mechanics but they're good mechanics. All have circumstantial benefits so there's some strategy in picking which one to summon, but your subclass will point your to a default or you can go with RP and use the evolutions to enhance all of your options.

If you get a chance to playtest it, pls let me know how it goes!