'Fireball Formation: How Often are you able to avoid it even if you want to?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Often when discussing how good Paladin Auras are, the side that argues against them being that good points to a desire to avoid 'Fireball Formation' as one of the reasons they don't value the auras that much.

Obviously encounters vary, but the game is called DUNGEONS and Dragons. Most encounters happen in confined spaces of some sort. Characters are travelling between rooms or down hallways/ tunnels of some sort to wider rooms or caves. When posters say they're avoiding Fireball Formation I wonder what they mean. Does it mean the party is strung out along the hallways or tunnels, or do some of the group explore one room while others are in the next room over? Because given the diameter of fireball (and many other spells) is 40', these examples would be the norm if a party is really going to commit to this strategy. The end result will be that some of the group is effectively going to miss round 1; perhaps if those further away aren't surprised they could cast a buff spell or the like, but will have limited impact on combat. A party also opens themselves up to being divided up by various magical and non/magical means.

Our groups often tend to physically divide themselves up by scouts and not scouts where there is a good chance of gaining surprise on the enemy by some characters. We will also keep distance if we have the space, particularly if we're aware enemies are likely to use AOE, though this isn't as common. Once combat is underway we will spread out if it's A) possible, and B) tactically wise, but again this can be circumstantial. Once combat is underway, many spells, including Fireball, have friendly fire so it's less of a risk to pack together when there are multiple enemies anyway.

Long story short, most of the time our groups are getting Fireballed on round 1, and spreading out, while travelling, in a manner that has a lot of disadvantages seems to be bad tactics in most cases. So that's part of the reason I really like the Paly Auras. What's going on at tables where avoiding Fireball Formation is the norm?

[Unoriginal]

Worth noting that 4-7 people (the typical range for an adventuring party) won't be much of a Fireball formation. With 4-7 persons, the adventurers will sometime be close, sometime be spread out, and sometime have enemies in the middle of them, depending on what makes tactical sense at the turn each PC gets to position themselves.

Fireball formation is more when you have a overwhelming (like 14+) number of mooks who are all neatly staying close of each other and in a way that avoids any PC risking being in the AoEs the PCs are dropping. Which is pretty much white room theorycrafting outside of cases like the PCs get to control a bottle neck and the enemies don't care/can't afford to care about the danger they have to put themselves in to reach the PCs.

[llama-hedge]

My group tends to have a lot of fighting in open spaces. This is a trend that carries over multiple DMs and most in-game biomes including traditional dungeons (of which we have very few anyway). Fighting in cramped conditions simply isn't a thing. In spite of this our parties tend to clump up around the paladin while travelling anyway. The one exception is aarakocra, who are almost always ~50ft up in the air because why wouldn't you?

Once combat starts though everyone scatters out. This is not because we're actively trying to avoid AOEs, but because that's just what happens when you have a bunch of different builds that all want to be different distances away and the enemies keep moving around. It's more of a diffusion process or an artefact of the turn structure than a deliberate tactic.

The one time we do consistently actively avoid 'fireball formation' is when we know we're going to fight a dragon. Given that's the other half of the title, it comes up fairly frequently and is usually clearly telegraphed so we can prep and position ourselves appropriately.

[Pex]

At some point Hug The Paladin formation is more important than not being in Fireball formation. Fireball and similar effects do lots of damage, but soon the damage they do isn't relevant to the party's health. Damage is easily healed. Damage is resisted. You make the saving throw for half damage which is only a small percentage of your max hit points. However, when damage is irrelevant failing other saving throws become bad. PCs can lose actions, turns, or free will. It's more important to make that save than worry about damage, so everyone walk in a circle up to 10 ft from the paladin in the center.

If there is no paladin in the party then do as you will and stay out of Fireball/Lightning Bolt formation.

[Frogreaver]

Often when discussing how good Paladin Auras are, the side that argues against them being that good points to a desire to avoid 'Fireball Formation' as one of the reasons they don't value the auras that much.

Obviously encounters vary, but the game is called DUNGEONS and Dragons. Most encounters happen in confined spaces of some sort. Characters are travelling between rooms or down hallways/ tunnels of some sort to wider rooms or caves. When posters say they're avoiding Fireball Formation I wonder what they mean. Does it mean the party is strung out along the hallways or tunnels, or do some of the group explore one room while others are in the next room over? Because given the diameter of fireball (and many other spells) is 40', these examples would be the norm if a party is really going to commit to this strategy. The end result will be that some of the group is effectively going to miss round 1; perhaps if those further away aren't surprised they could cast a buff spell or the like, but will have limited impact on combat. A party also opens themselves up to being divided up by various magical and non/magical means.

Our groups often tend to physically divide themselves up by scouts and not scouts where there is a good chance of gaining surprise on the enemy by some characters. We will also keep distance if we have the space, particularly if we're aware enemies are likely to use AOE, though this isn't as common. Once combat is underway we will spread out if it's A) possible, and B) tactically wise, but again this can be circumstantial. Once combat is underway, many spells, including Fireball, have friendly fire so it's less of a risk to pack together when there are multiple enemies anyway.

Long story short, most of the time our groups are getting Fireballed on round 1, and spreading out, while travelling, in a manner that has a lot of disadvantages seems to be bad tactics in most cases. So that's part of the reason I really like the Paly Auras. What's going on at tables where avoiding Fireball Formation is the norm?

There's many potential tactical formations if you have the space. An example:

Melee Character in Center - for the sake of discussion let's say a paladin. Characters with Ranged Capabilities on each flank about 30ft away. Let's say a Wizard on the left flank and cleric on the right. Then perhaps there's a rogue about 30ft back from the center paladin or possibly 30 ft in front. If any character has enemies come to them the paladin is a single turn away. The rogue can reach any character in a single turn thanks to cunning action. Obviously, This requires adequate space. But also not all enemies have AOEs as large as fireball.

In this formation at most 2 characters can be fireballed at once and at least one of them will be the paladin. The rogue is more than 40 ft from the wizard and cleric. The wizard and cleric are also more than 40 ft apart.


At some point Hug The Paladin formation is more important than not being in Fireball formation. Fireball and similar effects do lots of damage, but soon the damage they do isn't relevant to the party's health. Damage is easily healed. Damage is resisted. You make the saving throw for half damage which is only a small percentage of your max hit points. However, when damage is irrelevant failing other saving throws become bad. PCs can lose actions, turns, or free will. It's more important to make that save than worry about damage, so everyone walk in a circle up to 10 ft from the paladin in the center.

If there is no paladin in the party then do as you will and stay out of Fireball/Lightning Bolt formation.

Often such control effects are AOE in nature as well. More targets even with a save bonus likely means more controlled targets than in the spread out scenario. The only time this isn't true is vs single target effects. I'm more concerned with bad luck die rolls causing multiple party members in a control effect AOE even with a save bonus to lose turns than I am 1 PC being controlled due to not being near the paladin.

Obviously if you can't spread out adaquately then that's when you shift into hug Paladin formation.

[OldTrees1]

In parties with Paladins, I often see them bunch up in Fireball Formation,
... and then accept Maxim 20 "If you're not willing to shell your own position, you're not willing to win."
... and then conclude an enemy casting fireball has made a desirable tactical error.


Of course my sample is skewed by Ancients Paladins. We started requesting fireballs and sometimes supplied our own.


Of course if the party did not want to be in fireball formation, then they probably start with the rear guard a bit behind the front guard. Then the front guard can charge 30 ft in round 1 to bisect the fireball formation. This has the downside of making the party vulnerably to "separate the party" traps.

[Chronos]

There's also the relatively common situation that two or more party members are close together, not because they're actively trying to be, but because they're all in melee with the same enemy. This can be because melee characters are ganging up on the primary threat, or it can be because a melee enemy has closed with a ranged party member, and one or more melee party members move next to them to take some of the pressure off of them.

DM: How close are the cleric and barbarian to you?
Me playing a paladin: Well, the cleric's using Spirit Guardians, and the barbarian's meleeing the same thing I am, so yeah, they're probably both within 10'.

[Dr.Samurai]

For me it's less about not being in fireball formation and more of wanting to be mobile and having the ability to target whatever enemy seems like the right target. I don't want the paladin's positioning to dictate my own positioning, especially when paladin's don't really have a lot of mobility. If they have a steed, then probably we're on a bigger map anyway, and the paladin is faster than everyone, but needs to throttle down the speed so allies can keep up.

But to the OP's point, a lot of combat does occur on smaller maps with tighter spaces, and you might be in Aura/Fireball formation just because you don't have much of a choice. In which case the bonus to saving throws is very much appreciated.

[da newt]

It varies a great deal.

In one of my campaigns I play a very independent gloomstalker SS w/ slippers of spider climb who goes out of his way to be somewhere away from the party if it is physically possible (on a roof, up a tree, on the ceiling).

In another campaign I play a tough shield master barbarian who is always the front line or bashing through it to get to the bigger target.

5' wide hallways are the bane of tactical maneuvering, and I've yet to play at a table with a party who planned much at all and have never have seen a party stick to a plan for more than 2 rounds of combat. Once initiative is rolled, any plans evaporate quickly. Unless your DM encourages excessive table talk, once combat starts it's neigh impossible to do much coordination beyond 'I'll AoE the goons, you go for the BBEG!'

[5eNeedsDarksun]

There's also the relatively common situation that two or more party members are close together, not because they're actively trying to be, but because they're all in melee with the same enemy. This can be because melee characters are ganging up on the primary threat, or it can be because a melee enemy has closed with a ranged party member, and one or more melee party members move next to them to take some of the pressure off of them.

DM: How close are the cleric and barbarian to you?
Me playing a paladin: Well, the cleric's using Spirit Guardians, and the barbarian's meleeing the same thing I am, so yeah, they're probably both within 10'.

Thanks everyone for the responses. This one reminds me of a combat we had in early tier 3 against a Pit Fiend and a few other fiends. It was a close fight and if not for my Paly's 10th level aura the Barbarian would have needed to roll a 20 or be trucking the other direction; with good positioning he didn't even need to roll. It's one of the fights that comes to mind when I read comments minimizing the effectiveness of the auras, or suggesting there's not much being lost by multi-classing out of Paly.

The spellcasters (I think there were 2) did manage to hang back/ spread out and mostly concentrated on the other fiends as I recall, but without the Barb my Paly would have been toast.

[Dork_Forge]

An aside: I read 'Fireball Formation' to be any positioning that leaves the party open to most/all members caught in AOE, not necessarily something as large as Fireball.

In my experience, the party is often grouped up like this, sometimes for auras, sometimes they'll space themselves out with 5ft open space between (though this is sill FF imo), and of course they don't travel spread out like that, it's unrealistic and unintuitive to go through areas spread out significantly unless you're expecting an AOE, otherwise you're just setting yourself up to die.

[Kane0]

Yeah the radius is big enough that even when travelling out in the open the party is often in the area. Its even worse when theyre travelling with a wagon or something, so when you're dungeon delving in places where any given room could be entirely encompassed by a fireball its pretty difficult to avoid without spreading the party out to a dangerous degree.

[sithlordnergal]

...thinking about it, my players usually don't have the option. I like to run combat in confined spaces, with scant few ways to retreat. Usually because I like to use debilitating auras on my players that they have to survive while also surviving combat.

[animorte]

Personally, I would wager that it's actually better to be in "fireball formation" against AoEs. Who's to say you yourself won't be the target of said spell? Might as well gain the Paladin's benefit just in case. :smallamused: