PDA

View Full Version : Tattooed Monk: A great example of bad class design



SirNibbles
2023-03-25, 05:22 PM
The purpose of this thread is to show that the Tattooed Monk is a terrible class in every way: the flavor is nonsensical, the rules are often either ambiguous or render the abilities unusable, and it is woefully underpowered even with the most permissive interpretations.

Waltz over to your bookshelf, grab your copy of Complete Warrior, and turn to page 82. Let us begin by addressing the very first sentence that greets us there:




Certain monastic orders bestow supernatural or spell-like powers on their members by inscribing magic tattoos on their skin.

Complete Warrior, page 82


This raises a near-endless number of questions: If supernatural abilities can be bestowed simply by applying a tattoo, why not just make the tattoos items? Why does this need to be a class, especially when the only class feature is getting tattoos (and advancing monk abilities)? If the tattoos can't just be applied to anyone, then how exactly does it work: how do you learn to use your tattoo? Do you apply the tattoos yourself or does someone else do it? What abilities do they need to create the tattoos? Obviously, it's not an ability you gain as a Tattooed Monk: Tattooed Monks don't gain any abilities besides tattoos!



Part 1: How Tattoos are Made

I am aware of the following methods of creating magic tattoos:

Create Magic Tattoo (spell) - Spell Compendium, page 55

2nd level Sorc/Wiz spell that creates tattoos which last for 24 hours and confer small bonuses to the wearer. Requires at least 1 rank of Craft (drawing), Craft (painting), Craft (calligraphy), or a similar Craft skill. Inscribing a magic tattoo requires a successful Craft check: DC 10/15/20 depending on the tier of the tattoo, with higher tiers being available at higher caster levels. Limit of three tattoos at any one time. Requires a material component: inks costing at least 100 gp.

Monk's Tattoo (Wondrous Item) - Magic of Faerūn, page 163

Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be a monk of at least 10th level; Market Price: 80,000 gp; Weight: —

Uniquely only functions for characters with monk class levels. Follows standard creation rules for Wondrous Items, provides a continuous bonus. Does not use an item slot.

Tattoo Magic (feat) - Lords of Darkness, page 189/Races of Faerūn, page 170

Prerequisites: Craft (calligraphy) 1 rank, Craft (painting) 1 rank, Spellcaster level 3rd

Allows for the creation of single-use tattoos which can be used to store targeted spells of up to 3rd level. The bearer of the tattoo is always the target of the spell. Activating the tattoo is a standard action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A magic tattoo occupies a magic item slot based on its location on the body, or can be created to not use a magic item slot for double the normal price. The base price of a tattoo is [Spell Level] x [Caster Level] x [50 gp]. Creating a tattoo requires 1/25 of the base price in XP and raw materials costing half the base price. Creating a tattoo takes one hour.

Scribe Tattoo (feat) - Expanded Psionics Handbook, page 51

Prerequisite: Manifester level 3rd

Functions similarly to Tattoo Magic, with the following differences: tattoos do not use a magic item slot; tattoos can be transferred to another willing living creature or taken from a dead creature as a standard action; activation of a tattoo provokes AoOs; maximum of 17 tattoos- attempting to add more automatically activates all tattoos; creating a tattoo takes one day.

Psionic Tattoo Mastery (feat) - Getting Wired - The Art of Mastering Psionic Tattoos (Web Enhancement)

Prerequisite: Scribe Tattoo
Allows creation of tattoos of psionic powers up to 9th level. It takes 1 day per 1,000 gp of the base price to create a tattoo. You can apply any metaspionic feat(s) you know to your tattoos- they increase the level of the power as normal. Tattoos above third level take up more than one tattoo slot; +2 slots for each level above 3rd, up to 13 slots for a 9th level power (the limit of 17 slots still applies).

I don't see any good reason to separate Psionic Tattoos from Magic Tattoos, and I think it would be worth reworking this system into a single system that allows for psionics and magic, depending on the creator.

The article also introduces 'circuit tattoos': we will be ignoring those for now.


Magical Tattoos (Wondrous Items) - Dragon Magazine #304, page 28

Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item; bark skin and Caster level 2nd (Tattoo of Steel); charm person, cause fear, and Caster Level 2nd (Tattoo of Amity), bull's strength and Caster level 3rd (Tattoo of Pain)

The first two tattoos give small, permanent bonuses. The third tattoo gives 5 uses/day of an ability similar in concept to the Lion tattoo, but activation is a free action (as it should be).


Living Tattoos (Construct) - Denizens of Dread, page 129

Ritual performed by a shaman of the Abber Nomads, requiring 1d8+8 hours, xp cost based on HD or item cost

Essentially functions as a familiar that you can wear.

Thanks to ShurikVch for pointing out that these last two exist.




The first two of the above-listed methods of obtaining magic tattoos share some similarity with the way that a Tattooed Monk's tattoos function: Create Magic Tattoo gives small, continuous bonuses; the Monk's Tattoo is a permanent effect that gives continuous bonuses. Tattoo Magic and Scribe Tattoo can be considered two sides of the same coin, but that coin - single use tattoos that replicate spells/powers - is not very similar to the tattoos of the Tattooed Monk. Nonetheless, those systems are fleshed out to the point that they deserve mentioning. Of the methods of getting tattoos, creating tattoos as Wondrous Items is probably the most logical way to go about it to get as close as possible to the Tattooed Monk's tattoos- if they are slotless, as all Tattooed Monk tattoos are, they cost double.

Having decided that it makes the most sense for similar tattoos to be created as Wondrous Items, the question must be asked: how are non-casters doing it? Naturally, they aren't. Therefore, in order for this class to make any sense, these must be mundane tattoos that somehow become supernatural through the training of the Tattooed Monk. This is bad flavour. It fails to be sufficiently explained or particularly interesting in the way that a class like Runescarred Berserker (Unapproachable East, page 31) is. However, bad flavour isn't the end of the world: at least you get some cool abilities, right?



Part 2: An Analysis of the Tattooed Monk's Tattoos

The Tattooed Monk gets its only class feature, tattoos, at every odd level. There is no capstone ability. I do not know how to further explain that this kind of design is atrocious- I hope others may do it for me in the replies. Many of the abilities you do get are triple-scaling: the duration, power, and number of uses all scale with level. This means at low levels, the power, duration, and number of uses are completely insignificant- many of the abilities don't actually last long enough to be usable: more on that when we analyse individual tattoos.




All tattoos are magical, and the abilities they bestow are supernatural (except for the crescent moon). A tattooed monk in an antimagic field loses all benefits of his tattoos. Unless the effect of a tattoo is continuous, activating a tattoo is a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.


Complete Warrior, page 83


Note: Throughout this section, I will occasionally be shortening 'Tattooed Monk' to 'TM' and 'Tattooed Monk Level' to 'TML'. +Tattoo = an ability gives a bonus equal to the number of tattoos you have; , Tattoo/day = ability is usable a number of times per day equal to the number of tattoos you have; Rd/TML = ability lasts 1 round per Tattooed Monk Level.



Tattoo
Benefit/Description
Analysis


Arrowroot
Move action to heal others by touch, limited to [Wis] x [TML] HP per day
Similar to Lay on Hands but can't be used to heal yourself or damage undead. Move action instead of standard. Still worthless, especially at low levels.



Bamboo
Tattoo/day, +tattoo enhancement bonus to Con, 1 rd/TML

At best, gives you +5 Con enhancement bonus for 10 rounds, 5 times a day. The increase is comparable to Bear's Endurance but with a much shorter duration. For a first level TM, one time per day you can get a +1 enhancement bonus to Con for 1 round: this is for a minimum 6th level character. This is shockingly bad.



Bat
Tattoo/day, +tattoo enhancement bonus to Dex, 1 rd/TML

Same as above, Cat's Grace.



Bellflower
Tattoo/day, +Cha as enhancement bonus to any ability score, 1 rd/TML

Same issues as above but, even worse, the bonus is dependent on Charisma, usually a dump stat for Monks. Possibly exploitable by looping to give a bonus to Charisma, but even so the gain is minimal and short-lived.


Butterfly
Tattoo/day, +tattoo enhancement bonus to Wis, 1 rd/TML

Same as Bamboo/Bat, Owl's Wisdom.



Centipede
Shadow Walk 1/week, minimum 5th level TM

Gets you shadow walk sooner than a Wizard would get it, but only 1/week. No scaling. Somewhat viable, but do you really need shadow walk and is it worth 5 levels of this class?



Chameleon
Tattoo/day, Alter Self 1 hr/TML

Another second level wizard spell a few times a day. Useful for disguise but very little utility otherwise. Somewhat viable, especially given it lasts at least an hour rather than a single round at low levels.



Crab
+Tattoo DR 2/magic, stacks with other sources

DR/magic isn't a good ability. By the time you pick up this tattoo, it will be easily bypassed. By the time it reaches full potential, it will be nearly useless.



Crane
Immunity to nonmagical disease, immunity to poison, immunity to aging

Strangely only scales twice and only if you get it before other tattoos, but the effects are useful nonetheless. Regular monk also gets all of these abilities.



Chrysanthemum*
Heal TML/hour HP while in direct sunlight

Useful at lower levels for healing outside of combat, if you're in an environment with sun. 1 hp/hour at 6th level isn't great.



Dragon
Tattoo/day fire breath as with elixir of fire breath

4d6 single target fire, DC 13 reflex half. Can breathe 3 times per elixir within 1 hour of drinking. Gives you a ranged attack that doesn't need an attack roll. Very low reflex save DC doesn't scale with level or ability score. Possibly viable at lower levels.



Dragonfly
1/day +tattoo dodge bonus to AC 1 rd/TML

Up to +5 dodge to AC once a day for 10 rounds? Or +1/1 round to start? Worthless.



Falcon
Immune to fear, allies within 10 feet gain +[TM's Cha] +[Tattoo] as morale vs fear.

Fear immunity is nice, and increasing your allies' saves is nice. Very similar to 3rd level Paladin ability, but 3 levels of Paladin is better than 3 levels of TM.



Lion
Tattoo/day, +4 attack/+TML damage on a single melee attack

A smite evil that works on any enemy but has a smaller damage bonus. Max is 5/day +10 damage. Remember, this is a single roll and uses a move action. Worthless.



Monkey
+1 competence/Tat to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks

That's a lot of skills. Unfortunately you need to take 9 levels of TM to max the bonus and some of those skills aren't class skills. Somewhat viable for skill monkeys.



Moon, Crescent
1/day Ethereal Jaunt SLA, minimum 9th level TM

Comes online 1 level after Wizard, same level as Sorcerer. But do you need Ethereal jaunt? Usable.



Moon, Full
Tat/day +2 luck bonus to a single attack roll, skill check, or ability check. Can't be used during daytime.

Requiring a move action to use makes no sense or makes this useless in most cases. Even as a free action, this isn't a good option.



Mountain
Can't move in exchange for untyped +4 con and 4 wis, 1 rd/TML. -20 to Dex skill checks, immunity to trip and bull rush

*casts grease* I don't know what the benefit of this ability is supposed to be.



Nightingale
Heal self or allies x [TML] HP/day.

20 hp of healing per day as a move action at level 15. Worthless.



Ocean
Don't need to eat, sleep, or drink

Convenient, especially at low level, though some DMs ignore eating/drinking as needless bookkeeping. Valuable if imprisoned.



Phoenix
SR 15+TML, minimum 7th level TM

Nice to have, but regular monk gets it around the same level anyhow.



Pine
Remain Conscious

How is this a class feature requiring 2 levels of investment?



Scorpion
Tattoo/day, force opposing attacker to use worst ability score for attack roll

A few times a day you can make your opponent more likely to miss you with an attack. Probably most useful for avoiding ranged touch attacks. Not great. Also can be activated on opponent's turn, but still requires a move action somehow.



Spider
Instead of Stunning Fist, DC 10+TML+Con Poison, initial and secondary 2 Con dmg

If you can stun it, you'd rather stun it than poison it. If you can't stun it, you probably can't poison it. Worthless.



Sun
As full moon, but only during the day.

As bad as full moon, but during the day.


Tiger
Tattoo/day, +1 atk/+1d6 dmg with UAS, 1 rd/TML

Hurts to burn a move action to activate at the start of a fight, and isn't a huge benefit; better off using a wand of Bull's Strength or something. At low level, the duration makes it pretty much unusable.



Tortoise
Tattoo/day, use TML instead of skill rank for a skill check, even if untrained.

Specifically calls out UMD meaning you can use 'trained only' skills that you don't have trained, which could be useful for a skill monkey with no skills, but why would you be that? Possibly useful for fringe skills.



Unicorn
1/day reroll any roll, must take the new result

Not worth 2 levels of investment for a marginal ability.



Wasp
Tattoo/day, haste 1 rd/TML

Haste is nice but the duration is short and there are better ways to get haste



White Mask
+10 bluff, immune to detect thoughts, detect lies, and attempts to magically discern alignment

A convenient, always active ability. A real standout among all of the trash that Tattooed Monk has to offer.



*I know that this tattoo is out of alphabetical order. This is the order in which they are listed. I was not an editor for Complete Warrior.

To summarise, the following tattoos are not worthless: Centipede, Chameleon, Crane, Dragon, Falcon, Monkey, Crescent Moon, Ocean, Phoenix, Tortoise, Wasp, and White Mask. That's 12 of 30 tattoos that are even worth considering taking.



Part 3: Proposed Solutions

1. Condense the class into 5 levels with a tattoo at every level. Halve the minimum class level requirement for all tattoos. This is the easiest solution but also solves the fewest number of problems.

2. Make the knockoff Bear's Endurance-style tattoos just function as SLAs of the spells which they are clearly meant to mimic. 1/4th the bonus for 1/10th the duration is ridiculous. The same bonus for 1/10th the duration is still ridiculous. This is also an easy solution and doesn't fix the core issues of the class.

3. Remove the class entirely and make your own Wondrous Item tattoos with similar effects or make up your own. Set a limit to the number of tattoos a creature can possess.

4. Allow the class to use single use tattoos (see Tattoo Magic, Scribe Tattoo) without them disappearing after every use- options include guaranteed retention of tattoos with a cooldown, a chance for a tattoo to fade with use, and tattoos of a certain level and lower being multi-use.

5. Make the class a partial-casting class, with +1 spellcasting at each even level. This can be combined with other solutions. Not particularly elegant and doesn't fix the base problems, but at least it's a power increase of some kind.

6. Give every tattoo a passive and active component. For example, add the following active ability to Monkey: Branch to Branch (Spell Compendium, page 38) as an SLA a number of times per day equal to the number of tattoos you possess. Add the following passive ability to Mountain: as long as you have moved less than 20 feet in the last round, you gain a +4 bonus to resist trip, overrun, and bull rush attempts.

7. Fix the boring and poorly-explained flavor - if these are mundane tattoos that become magical through meditation and self-discovery, include that somehow. If these start out as magic tattoos, give the class some ability to make magic tattoos.

8. Individually fix the tattoos that are awful to be less so. I've already taken a long time to write this and will never end up posting if I try to come up with variations for each tattoo.





Tattoo
Benefit/Description
Analysis


Arrowroot





Bamboo






Bat






Bellflower





Butterfly






Centipede






Chameleon






Crab






Crane






Chrystanthemum*






Dragon






Dragonfly






Falcon






Lion






Monkey






Moon, Crescent






Moon, Full






Mountain






Nightingale






Ocean






Phoenix






Pine






Scorpion






Spider






Sun





Tiger






Tortoise






Unicorn






Wasp






White Mask








I will continue to add to this list, but, as I said before, at some point I have to post. Thank you to everyone who suffered reading through this.

ShurikVch
2023-03-25, 07:29 PM
Tattooed Monk in Oriental Adventures can get one more useful tattoo: Crow - immunity for Shadowlands Taint and +1 Will save for 1 day/tattoo; once it runs out - it can't be used again for 5 days.
Obviously, it's very setting-specific, but otherwise useful (at least - as long as your DM don't punish you for using it: I heard they using "moth to the flame" logic for all the Shadowlands nasties in the surrounding area)

Maat Mons
2023-03-25, 08:07 PM
It may also be worth noting that the OA version of the Crab tattoo granted DR that could only be overcome by a weapon with an enhancement bonus at least equal to your Constitution bonus. So if you had Con 22, you got DR/epic.

Personally, I think Crystal Master (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215623/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d) is pretty close to Tattooed Monk done right.

St Fan
2023-03-26, 06:03 PM
As with everything, how useful is the prestige class depends entirely on the build.

Chameleon, for instance, is quite useful for a character that otherwise qualified for Warshaper, since he can use the alter self power to be transformed for several hours, thus gaining the advantages while still humanoid (and the form adopted may even be still his own with little difference [like being clean-shaved]).

Crane can notably gain the designed monk abilities way sooner.

The fact that very few of the tattoos are actually useful isn't that much of a drawback when a character can only pick five of them anyway.

My selection for a build I have in mind will certainly include, in order, Crane, Chameleon, Falcon, White Mask and Monkey.

SirNibbles
2023-03-26, 08:20 PM
It may also be worth noting that the OA version of the Crab tattoo granted DR that could only be overcome by a weapon with an enhancement bonus at least equal to your Constitution bonus. So if you had Con 22, you got DR/epic.

Personally, I think Crystal Master (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215623/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d) is pretty close to Tattooed Monk done right.

I hadn't seen Crystal Master before, but it definitely looks like Tattooed Monk done right, from the way the Embedded Gems work to the fact that it advances manifesting. Thanks for that. It's also a shame to see that Crab got nerfed for no reason.


As with everything, how useful is the prestige class depends entirely on the build.

Chameleon, for instance, is quite useful for a character that otherwise qualified for Warshaper, since he can use the alter self power to be transformed for several hours, thus gaining the advantages while still humanoid (and the form adopted may even be still his own with little difference [like being clean-shaved]).

Crane can notably gain the designed monk abilities way sooner.

The fact that very few of the tattoos are actually useful isn't that much of a drawback when a character can only pick five of them anyway.

My selection for a build I have in mind will certainly include, in order, Crane, Chameleon, Falcon, White Mask and Monkey.

I agree that you can pick five tattoos you'd want for any given build, but it is rather bad design that almost 20 tattoos aren't worth choosing- every tattoo should at least have a single build that might want to use it. The dead levels, especially where you should get a capstone, are just ridiculous.

ShurikVch
2023-03-26, 09:22 PM
Some more examples of in-game tattoos:

Feats
Atlan's Mark (Dragon #315) - Every inch of your skin is covered in an elaborate tattoo, a ritualistic marker of your status as chosen of the Underworld.
Sacred Tattoo (Races of Faerūn) - You have been spiritually touched by one of the god-kings of the Old Empires and bear his or her symbol in the form of a tattoo in the shape of a holy symbol.
Skincaster (Dragon #359) - You copy all spells directly to your skin instead of a spellbook.
Tattoo Focus (Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5/Player's Guide to Faerūn) - You bear the powerful magical tattoos of a Red Wizard of Thay.


Class Features
Thayan Knight -

Zulkir's Favor (Su): At 1st level, a Thayan knight undergoes a long and painful tattooing ritual. A magic tattoo, placed either on the back or the forehead, provides a +2 resistance bonus on Reflex saves. The tattoo also marks the knight as someone loyal to the Red Wizards. The knight automatically fails any saving throw against a mind-affecting spell cast by a Red Wizard. When the tattoo is visible, the knight gains a +2 morale bonus on Intimidate checks as an extraordinary ability.


Racial Traits
Aelfborn -

The mystical tattoos of the Aelfborn stave off some of the effects of their inherent madness. Should their magical tattoos ever be suppressed (through an anti-magic field, they must make a Will save (DC=10) every round or suffer the effects of a confusion spell until the tattoo's magic returns. This is a supernatural ability.


Templates
Magic-Infused (https://web.archive.org/web/20130531124332/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041222a) -

and the sudden appearance of tattoos linked thematically to the creature in some way (such as an orc skull with an arrow through it on a ranger whose favored enemy is orcs).
Spellstitched -

A spellstitched undead can be identified by the runes that cover its body, either carved into its skeletal remains or tattooed onto its rotting flesh. Under casual observation or while in combat, the runes can be noticed only with a DC 15 Spot check, otherwise simply appearing to be cracks in the creature's bones or wrinkles in its skin.
Spellstitched creatures can be created only by a wizard or sorcerer with the Craft Wondrous Item feat and of sufficient level to cast the spells to be imbued within the undead's body. The creation process takes a number of days equal to the Wisdom score of the undead creature being spellstitched (so a minimum of 10 days) and requires the expenditure of 1,000 gp for carving or tattooing materials in addition to 500 XP × the undead creature's Wisdom score.



Tattoos
By the use of tattoos, some wizards turn their own bodies into spellbooks, and high-level tattooed mages can often be covered with arcane designs and symbols from head to toe. Some spell tattoos can be placed so that the caster can read them simply by looking down, while others need the aid of mirrors or even a familiar to study their tattoos.
...
Because tattoos must save on space to fit in a comparatively small area, they must be scribed with great care and the finest reagents and inks, requiring 200 gp per page-equivalent, a time of 24 hours plus an additional 8 hours per spell level, and a Craft (tattooing) check (DC 20 + spell level if the caster scribes the tattoo himself; DC 10 + spell level if someone else does the work). To have the work done by another tattoo artist, the wizard must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level) to prepare a carefully executed sketch or diagram of the tattoo to be scribed. Tattoos that can't be read by a wizard without assistance (those placed on areas of his body he can’t always see) must be scribed by someone else.



Bonding with a Living Tattoo
Only tribal shamans of the Abber Nomads know how to perform the complex ritual that bonds a living tattoo with its host. Usually, the shaman only performs the rite to honor a tribe member for an act of great bravery. Occasionally, a shaman may be persuaded to give these tattoos to outlanders in return for services performed for the welfare of the tribe.
Once the shaman has chosen the design for the tattoo, he carefully cuts into the skin with a small ink-filled bone. This process is extremely painful, requiring ld8+8 hours to complete, and inflicting 2d4 points of nonlethal damage per hour. When the design is complete, the shaman and host meditate to draw a dream spirit into the tattoo’s pattern. If the host succeeds at a DC 14 Wisdom, a spirit responds. The host must then spend XP to bond with the tattoo. For tattoos with creature models, the cost is 200 XP per HD of the model. For object models, the cost is 1/25 the item’s market price in XP (100 XP minimum).


Craft Wondrous Items (Dragon #304)
Tattoo of Amity
Tattoo of Pain
Tattoo of Steel

Bucky
2023-03-26, 09:31 PM
Simply gaining one tattoo per level seems like it fixes most of the problems. Niche options have half the cost, Tattoo/day abilities have twice the endurance, and ability score enhancers get twice the bonuses. Nothing becomes particularly overpowered for its level.

Rebel7284
2023-03-27, 10:32 AM
I think there are a number of things that worked together to make TM as bad as it was.

1. I believe I have heard that CW was the very first of the complete books (too lazy to check), so the designers were much less in tune with understanding power level back then. Not like they ever got great at balancing content, but it was certainly worse early on.
2. I think their main goal was to update a 3.0 class to 3.5 because they enjoyed the flavor, they didn't really consider that this was an opportunity to make the class better, even if they realized that it was weak (see point 1)

As far as overall flavor, I can totally understand the designers being excited about a Monk getting powers from specific tattoos. It would be nice if they specified the HOW, but eh? this is D&D, a wizard did it or something. The lack of flavor can be a benefit to making a character since it's easier to insert whatever works for your back story!

Bohandas
2023-03-27, 09:39 PM
Another problem wih the class is the name. Instead of Tattooed Monk it should be called the Hipster (they don't seem to be sailors or bikers or prisones)

Seward
2023-03-28, 12:44 AM
Missing from this thread but pretty important is the opportunity cost to be a Tattooed monk.

First - waste 8 skill ranks in Kn Religion, in a class that is very MAD (so low intellegence) a skill list packed with useful skills and only 4 points/level to spend. You will have worse skills than a monk, just from this prereq, before even entering the class

Second - waste a feat on Endurance, and either a second feat on improved grapple or sacrifice stunning fist. Monks need their feats to make up for stuff like "I don't get routine bonuses for using weapons, instead am using fists that don't have even masterwork bonuses". A tattooed monk will have WORSE feats than a normal monk built the same way before even entering the class.

The only good thing is you can enter after level 4 monk, except for that Kn Religion requirement. If you go all monk, as soon as possible you are exiting monk at level 5, which is a terrible place (0 bab and no saving throw increases). But lets just say the player isn't stupid and takes monk to level 6 first (or is Something1/Monk4) and skip this opportunity cost.

Third - Monk levels do NOT stack with Tattooed monk for FLURRY progression. So you're losing Greater Flurry, which is a whole, full BAB attack, or at best delaying it for 10 levels.

So you've now tanked your skill points, your feats and your unarmed strike full attack significantly before we've even gotten to the 2nd line of the class description. Also slow fall progression but I admit that is insignificant.

Fourth - Some rather important class abilities are skipped for 10 levels of TM, between levels 7-16.
Wholeness of Body and Spell Resistance is basically using 2 of the 5 tattoos
Nothing compensates for loss of poison immunity and dimension door and DR lawful.

So all you get for losing all the stuff described above is 3 tatoos over 10 levels. You'd better get something pretty freaking amazing for those tatoos! You don't. The class is a complete waste and a basic monk is always better. Whether you dip or whether you go all 10 levels. Even the skill bonuses don't really compete with something like, I dunno, Monk/Rogue or Monk/Paladin.

Gruftzwerg
2023-03-28, 03:09 AM
I don't get all the hate towards Tattooed Monk (and even monk in general).

The Iron Chef round for TM (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626458-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CIX/page4)was nice imho. It showed a variate of builds that are imho far more interesting than a straight monk would be. Sure you lose Flurry progression and some other stuff, but what you get in return is worth it imho.

Chameleon : Alter Self all day = secondary Natural Attacks = qualifies for Improved -/Multiattack, which can be abused by monk's US for even more attacks, if we go strict RAW here. But even without a pure raw interpretation, we get more attacks as compared to flurry. Also qualifies your for Warshaper and can use the abilities all day long, since the TM ability has a very good scaling duration.

Tortoise : Turns you into a wannabe skillmonkey. You can be the face of the party one day, while playing the scout the other day. And if the healer is "dying", you try to use a wand to heal him up. This is an "always useful" ability which makes the "monk" very flexible.

Chrysanthemum : You don't need healing most of the time. Imho a very nice to have ability. Sure not as broken as regeneration or fast healing, but still a passive healing.

If we compare this to the regular monk class, imho these are worthy exchanges.

The thing is, that mundane characters in 3.5 need much more system knowledge to have a fine character build. And as soon as you compare it to "spell classes" it always gets the short end of the stick.

AvatarVecna
2023-03-28, 06:44 AM
Tattooed Monk is only bad if your point of comparison is most of the game. If your point of comparison is monk, at worst it's a slight downgrade in exchange for fun fluff.

The problem with improving Tattooed Monk is also a point of comparison issue. In the ideal version of the game, is monk 20 supposed to be real-life Bruce Lee, martial artists from spaghetti westerns, Kung Fu Panda, Naruto, Dragon Ball Z, The Monkey King, Saitama? Well that kinda depends on where the casters are, doesn't it? Does the rest of the party justify playing a monk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm), or a monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?475720), or a monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?477086), or a monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?406572), or a monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?431660)?

Troacctid
2023-03-28, 12:33 PM
The original version in OA is a lot better, both in mechanics and lore. CW really nerfed the class.

zlefin
2023-03-28, 01:29 PM
I'd say the real problem with the tattooed monk isn't about bad class design, because it's not really a 'designed' class, it's an update of a conversion from another system. It's just using one of the things that existed in the L5R setting/CCG, that was then converted into an OA supplement, that then had the serial numbers filed off. The actual original design makes sense; the problme is when you do all the converting/adapting and removing from the original setting it ceases to make sense.

SirNibbles
2023-03-28, 03:34 PM
Some more examples of in-game tattoos:

Thank you for the wealth of information. Some of these I had seen already but ignored (because they were either non-magical or did not explain how they were made and were thus of no use in analysing how Tattooed Monks might make their tattoos) while there were some which I hadn't heard of.


Simply gaining one tattoo per level seems like it fixes most of the problems. Niche options have half the cost, Tattoo/day abilities have twice the endurance, and ability score enhancers get twice the bonuses. Nothing becomes particularly overpowered for its level.

It definitely increase the overall power on the back end but it doesn't change the fact that when Wizards are casting Teleport and Mass Enlarge Person, you are using your turn to get +4 Con bonus which lasts 4 rounds. It also doesn't help with the issues of most abilities lasting a single round for a 6th level character.


As far as overall flavor, I can totally understand the designers being excited about a Monk getting powers from specific tattoos. It would be nice if they specified the HOW, but eh? this is D&D, a wizard did it or something. The lack of flavor can be a benefit to making a character since it's easier to insert whatever works for your back story!

If a Wizard makes the tattoos for them, why does this need to be a class instead of an item?


Another problem wih the class is the name. Instead of Tattooed Monk it should be called the Hipster (they don't seem to be sailors or bikers or prisones)

The Yakuza class from OA doesn't get any tattoos but the lawful monk does!


Missing from this thread but pretty important is the opportunity cost to be a Tattooed monk.

<snip>

The class is a complete waste and a basic monk is always better. Whether you dip or whether you go all 10 levels. Even the skill bonuses don't really compete with something like, I dunno, Monk/Rogue or Monk/Paladin.

Agreed. (You can get Endurance through Ranger 3/Mystic Ranger 4 if you wanted to go that route, but there's still not much reason to go Tattooed Monk vs something like Sacred Fist).


I don't get all the hate towards Tattooed Monk (and even monk in general).

The Iron Chef round for TM (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626458-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CIX/page4)was nice imho. It showed a variate of builds that are imho far more interesting than a straight monk would be. Sure you lose Flurry progression and some other stuff, but what you get in return is worth it imho.

Chameleon : Alter Self all day = secondary Natural Attacks = qualifies for Improved -/Multiattack, which can be abused by monk's US for even more attacks, if we go strict RAW here. But even without a pure raw interpretation, we get more attacks as compared to flurry. Also qualifies your for Warshaper and can use the abilities all day long, since the TM ability has a very good scaling duration.

Tortoise : Turns you into a wannabe skillmonkey. You can be the face of the party one day, while playing the scout the other day. And if the healer is "dying", you try to use a wand to heal him up. This is an "always useful" ability which makes the "monk" very flexible.

Chrysanthemum : You don't need healing most of the time. Imho a very nice to have ability. Sure not as broken as regeneration or fast healing, but still a passive healing.

If we compare this to the regular monk class, imho these are worthy exchanges.

The thing is, that mundane characters in 3.5 need much more system knowledge to have a fine character build. And as soon as you compare it to "spell classes" it always gets the short end of the stick.

I'm not sure I agree with it qualifying you for Warshaper, but I do agree that there are tattoos which are useful. The issue is the huge number of tattoos which aren't useful. Also, as Seward said, you also have to pay to get into the class (skills and feats) compared to the regular monk.


Tattooed Monk is only bad if your point of comparison is most of the game. If your point of comparison is monk, at worst it's a slight downgrade in exchange for fun fluff.

The problem with improving Tattooed Monk is also a point of comparison issue. In the ideal version of the game, is monk 20 supposed to be real-life Bruce Lee, martial artists from spaghetti westerns, Kung Fu Panda, Naruto, Dragon Ball Z, The Monkey King, Saitama? Well that kinda depends on where the casters are, doesn't it? Does the rest of the party justify playing a monk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm), or a monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?475720), or a monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?477086), or a monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?406572), or a monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?431660)?

Let's be honest, if your power is 'slightly downgraded from Monk' you're going to be struggling quite a lot. I love the basic fluff of Tattooed Monk. I just think the execution of the fluff was awful. There needs to be something that makes the class work and be functionally different from things that aren't that class- Tattooed Monk fails to do that.


The original version in OA is a lot better, both in mechanics and lore. CW really nerfed the class.




Certain monastic orders in the lands of Oriental Adventures bestow supernatural or spell-like powers on their members by inscribing magic tattoos on their skin. These tattooed monks shave their heads, speak in cryptic riddles and maxims, and—in many cases—travel the countryside furthering their quest for enlightenment by facing and conquering temptation. The great majority of tattooed monks begin their careers as monks. A small number of samurai, shamans, and shugenjas adopt the tattooed monk prestige class.

Oriental Adventures, page 49


I don't think the OA version was much better in either respect.

Flavour:
In both OA and CW, Tattooed Monks are stated to usually be Monks who somehow make their own magic tattoos despite having no abilities that allow them to make magic tattoos. Forget magic tattoos, you apparently don't even need the ability to make mundane tattoos (Craft skill) to make Tattooed Monk tattoos.

Power:
Most of the tattoos are copied and pasted from OA to CW, including the editing error that places Chrystanthemum out of order. CW adds Endurance as a prereq, which Seward notes means you lose a useful feat you otherwise would have chosen- the OA version gets it as part of the Pine Tattoo in addition to Remain Conscious; Pine is still not worth it but it's definitely better than having to burn a feat.

More often than not, the class is the same in OA and CW.


I'd say the real problem with the tattooed monk isn't about bad class design, because it's not really a 'designed' class, it's an update of a conversion from another system. It's just using one of the things that existed in the L5R setting/CCG, that was then converted into an OA supplement, that then had the serial numbers filed off. The actual original design makes sense; the problem is when you do all the converting/adapting and removing from the original setting it ceases to make sense.

I'm not familiar with the original setting so I can't say much in that regard. I can only see the final product and find it lacking.

AsuraKyoko
2023-03-30, 10:14 AM
I'm not familiar with the original setting so I can't say much in that regard. I can only see the final product and find it lacking.

In the original setting (Rokugan), the Tattooed Monk comes from one of a few a specific monastic orders that use the blood of a god to make the tattoos.

Mechanics-wise, in Legend of the Five Rings, monks get subtle supernatural abilities, and the tattoos give much flashier abilities. I'm AFB right now, so I don't have much in the way of specific examples, and I may be wrong about some stuff, but they can do things like run on water, breathe fire, jump 30ft straight up, etc. They also have special social standing, which is very important in that setting.

Edit: The article on the ever-excellent L5R Wiki on Tattooed Monks provides some info about their origins: https://l5r.fandom.com/wiki/Tattooed_Monk

SpyOne
2023-04-01, 04:00 AM
Palladium Books had a similar thing in Rifts.

Significantly, the tattoos were defined as being magic items that could be used by other classes, although having more than a few of them would block the ability to cast spells.

The knowledge of how to make them was, initially, limited to people who were long dead and one race of God-like bad guys who would put them on slaves because the tattoos only worked on Humans (and a couple of races of basically-humans, and one kind of Dragon believed to be extinct).

Even there, I'm not sure I see why this needed it's own class.