Is it just my impression or is this forum a little slow?

[Rukelnikov]

I noticed today that the threads in the bottom of the first page have a last post of almost 10 days ago. Was it always like this? I feel like there used to be more movement in the past.

[Ortho]

No, I've noticed it too. I think it's a combination of factors:

the poor quality of recent 5e releases
the whole OGL snafu
OneD&D being impressively underwhelming

I don't know about you, but all the above makes me a bit burnt out on this forum. I don't want to post here as often since there's just a lot more negativity in here than there used to be.

EDIT: Two more factors that might be relevant, but aren't directly related to 5e:

5e's just been around awhile, so the pace of discussion will naturally slow over time
The forum shutting down for a few months in 2020 probably caused a drop-off in active members

[J-H]

There's also not as much room for edge-case optimization as there is in 3.5. You can still find new handbook topics to write for 3.5, new broken combos, or new ways to make things that don't work, work. 5e is mostly a solved problem, mechanically speaking, so there's not much demand for new discussions around mechanics and rules compared to 3.5.

[animorte]

I don't know about you, but all the above makes me a bit burnt out on this forum. I don't want to post here as often since there's just a lot more negativity in here than there used to be.
I've only been active on the forum for about a year, so I assumed this was me just being more active with everything in general, that I started noticing.

I suppose a combination of OGL and One have been a bit discouraging, and I understand the results.

I've also been branching out more, so while I still participate often, I've found that I'm a bit less interested in the mechanical debates. While I still love and play D&D (5e and 3.5e), there's a lot of other stuff out there worth seeing. If it's a little simpler, I appreciate the opportunity, whether I stick with it or not.

[Samayu]

EDIT: Two more factors that might be relevant, but aren't directly related to 5e:

5e's just been around awhile, so the pace of discussion will naturally slow over time
The forum shutting down for a few months in 2020 probably caused a drop-off in active members

I don't think it's the latter. Posting has definitely decreased since that time, even in just the last year.

[Willowhelm]

I have had to take multiple extended breaks from the forum because it induces strong negative feelings regularly. I would not be surprised if others just don’t come back.

Every thread derails as soon as someone makes a minor error or assumption and triggers one of the regular loud voices to get on their soap box and start a pointlessly long back and forth about their personal pet peeves and petty grievances. At that point the thread circles the drain until it reaches the inevitable conclusions that it always does.

It is simply a bad medium for discussion and the personalities that are still here and posting regularly drive others away.

There are also some uniquely giantitp factors which hamper open discussions and contribute to the same threads occurring over and over.

[Unoriginal]

There was a time where people made threads to speculate about upcoming books, months before said books were even announced officially.

There was a time where examining UAs was a regular occurrence.

There was a time where this subforum was livelier, faster, happier.

It's over and gone, now.

[Amechra]

It is simply a bad medium for discussion and the personalities that are still here and posting regularly drive others away.

Yeah... not naming any names, but I've put a surprising number of people on my ignore list thanks to this subforum.

I still read and respond to their posts because I'm weak and can't help myself (I sometimes read the forums on my phone, where I'm not logged in and I can see everything), but I acknowledge that that's probably not healthy behavior.

(inb4 I'm one of the toxic people that chases people away from the subforum...)

[Psyren]

There's a natural boom-bust around major content releases, which we haven't had in a while (I think the last was Dragonlance, nearly 5 months ago at this point.) I agree with J-H as well, the low content pace and smaller balance range means not a lot of fodder for optimization discussions and not a lot of folks asking questions either.

Given that they promised a meaty UA release for OneD&D next month I'm looking forward to that.

[Unoriginal]

There's a natural boom-bust around major content releases, which we haven't had in a while (I think the last was Dragonlance, nearly 5 months ago at this point.) I agree with J-H as well, the low content pace and smaller balance range means not a lot of fodder for optimization discussions and not a lot of folks asking questions either.

Given that they promised a meaty UA release for OneD&D next month I'm looking forward to that.

I'm hoping it comes with One D&D getting is own subforum.

[No brains]

I'm surprised so many other people are experiencing the troubles that I have noticed. It's good to not feel so invisible and alone.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

No, I've noticed it too. I think it's a combination of factors:

the poor quality of recent 5e releases
the whole OGL snafu
OneD&D being impressively underwhelming

I don't know about you, but all the above makes me a bit burnt out on this forum. I don't want to post here as often since there's just a lot more negativity in here than there used to be.

EDIT: Two more factors that might be relevant, but aren't directly related to 5e:

5e's just been around awhile, so the pace of discussion will naturally slow over time
The forum shutting down for a few months in 2020 probably caused a drop-off in active members


I'll agree with your point 1 and 3. They're kind of related for me. The crap that has been released lately has me firmly convinced I don't have any interest in One D&D. Most of the topics I see have been discussed in one form or other.

[animewatcha]

OGL debacle already mentioned.

Part of it can be the wait for the arcane and martial releases of Playtests. And how WOTC will screw these up alongside coming up with few beneficial things. WOTC wants to keep same deadline for D&Done despite possible need for more playtest releases.

[Zuras]

There's a natural boom-bust around major content releases, which we haven't had in a while (I think the last was Dragonlance, nearly 5 months ago at this point.) I agree with J-H as well, the low content pace and smaller balance range means not a lot of fodder for optimization discussions and not a lot of folks asking questions either.

Given that they promised a meaty UA release for OneD&D next month I'm looking forward to that.

There hasn’t been much besides the 1DD playtest to speculate on, and with the OGL issues many people may have been looking into other systems—I know I have.

Beyond the pace and quality of new releases, it’s also hard to get as invested in 5e when you know the whole applecart will be overturned soon.

[Psyren]

I'm hoping it comes with One D&D getting is own subforum.

That's possible, though given that neither 3.5e nor PF2 did it doesn't seem likely.


There's also not as much room for edge-case optimization as there is in 3.5. You can still find new handbook topics to write for 3.5, new broken combos, or new ways to make things that don't work, work. 5e is mostly a solved problem, mechanically speaking, so there's not much demand for new discussions around mechanics and rules compared to 3.5.

This is part of why I'm interested in 1DnD, some of the more fundamental system changes like moving TWF out of the bonus action and killing Variant Human/Custom Lineage dead will have build implications even for a lot of tables that otherwise stick with 5e material.

There's also the (albeit slim) chance that Black Flag will have enough interesting design and buzz to borrow for 5e/1DnD games.

[animewatcha]

When it comes to 5e, other than WOTC ( and it's offhshoots like Crit role), who are major third party publishers that do 5e content?

[Xihirli]

When it comes to 5e, other than WOTC ( and its offhshoots like Crit role), who are major third party publishers that do 5e content?

Kobold Press is a big one. Calling Critical Role and offshoot of WOTC is an... interesting definition, but those are the big ones really. Fourth place is way way way behind.

[Kane0]

I keep TastyKibbles and LaserLlama on my radar, plus our home-grown Grod has done two 'everything' style books.

[Waazraath]

There's also not as much room for edge-case optimization as there is in 3.5. You can still find new handbook topics to write for 3.5, new broken combos, or new ways to make things that don't work, work. 5e is mostly a solved problem, mechanically speaking, so there's not much demand for new discussions around mechanics and rules compared to 3.5.

For me this is part, as well as the quality of recent releases and 1dnd not being interesting enough to follow and discuss.

I guess 1dnd deserves it's own subforum as soon as it's released, it being a new edition and all that, but at the same time changes so far seem marginal enough to personally consider it a 5.5.

[Kane0]

At present it appears more like a .5 than new edition, so i guess it'll be put here much like 3.5 was put in with 3.0 subforum?

I dont really mind if it does, there'll be plenty of talk going back and forth between them for a while if nothing else.

[Goobahfish]

Well, my joke that never seems to have landed is to call it 5.1 (1 for OneD&D and .1 because it really isn't a different game in any meaningful sense). It is meant to be pejorative (in a tongue-in-cheek way)

With the release of OneD&D no sensible content creator of any size will be touching 5e with anything new. Everything will devolve into speculation on the new edition (which have been... robust). This is intermittent at best and so 'inoffensive' in the main that there is nothing to say. It's not like 3e had much of a life once 3.5 came out. If 6e was more controversial (i.e., 4th) there would probably be more to dig up and it would give the 5e grognards (again tongue-in-cheek) greater confidence to keep going their own way. With 5.1 being basically 5e... I can't imagine that much of a dedicated '5e crowd' will remain. TBH, I think this subforum is probably doomed to die. But it will be a slow... faltering death.

[Waazraath]

Well, my joke that never seems to have landed is to call it 5.1 (1 for OneD&D and .1 because it really isn't a different game in any meaningful sense). It is meant to be pejorative (in a tongue-in-cheek way)

With the release of OneD&D no sensible content creator of any size will be touching 5e with anything new. Everything will devolve into speculation on the new edition (which have been... robust). This is intermittent at best and so 'inoffensive' in the main that there is nothing to say. It's not like 3e had much of a life once 3.5 came out. If 6e was more controversial (i.e., 4th) there would probably be more to dig up and it would give the 5e grognards (again tongue-in-cheek) greater confidence to keep going their own way. With 5.1 being basically 5e... I can't imagine that much of a dedicated '5e crowd' will remain. TBH, I think this subforum is probably doomed to die. But it will be a slow... faltering death.

Geee thanks for this bright and optimistic note to start my day with!

:smallbiggrin:

[Witty Username]

Yeah... not naming any names, but I've put a surprising number of people on my ignore list thanks to this subforum.

I still read and respond to their posts because I'm weak and can't help myself (I sometimes read the forums on my phone, where I'm not logged in and I can see everything), but I acknowledge that that's probably not healthy behavior.

(inb4 I'm one of the toxic people that chases people away from the subforum...)

Stuff like this leads to me taking days off from the forum, either because of others or my concerns about getting too worked up in conversation and being part of the problem.

Which is weird in all honesty, I feel like alot of the time arguments here alot of the time are between people that are in 90% agreement but the 10% is the hill people have chosen to die on.

But either way, low activity is probably more healthier than high activity. Generally if a thread is like 20 pages deep its a red flag, at least lately.

[Chaos Jackal]

People have more or less named the primary factors, so I'll just expand a bit upon some of them.

Simply put, 5e isn't 3.5.

The quality of recent content is definitely at least questionable and on top of that, while the pace of releases has actually sped up over the years, it's not enough to cover the completely glacial one of the early days. Over eight and a half years, there's less content than there was in two years of 3.5 and while you could make an argument for bloat and a ton of useless crap being in 3.5's book releases, it also doesn't change the fact that even said crap stirred people to speculate and create; Iron Chef, a contest where you're given a terrible prestige class and asked to make the most out of it, is still running in GitP after 13 years, because there's just so much to experiment with before you even get to the actually good stuff. 5e not only has significantly less content, it's also significantly stricter in what it allows. Whatever its effect might be on the balance or entry level of the game, there's no doubt that its effect on discussions is stifling. 5e can be "solved" a lot quicker from an optimization standpoint, as mentioned in another post, and even from a non-optimization one, there are only so many ideas; I can't remember the last time I saw someone ask a question or propose an idea in a thread topic and not think "haven't I seen that question/idea 5 times over the last couple years?" There's just not enough in this game to drive a high number of discussions for a decade.

And then you have things about forums in general and GitP in particular.

Forum culture has declined, let's not forget that. Sure, it's not dead, but these are the years of Reddit; hell, we're probably almost past those years too. The years where the largest communities for any given thing were found in dedicated forums are long gone. Forums were already past their heyday in 2014 and it's been nine years since then. People move on and ever-fewer ones are added in. And well... Like it or not, optimization discussions have always been a very big contributor in forum talk and on top of the aforementioned issues about 5e not lending itself too well to such talk, especially by now, there's the added problem of the 5e community in general being indifferent or even averse to it.

And this combines with GitP's quirks to create a miserable experience.

The Playground might be seemingly cleaner on the surface with its behavior rules, but at times that has contributed to a very toxic environment in certain topics, the aforementioned optimization ones very much included, that cannot be fought off. People are hijacking and derailing threads while holding an extremely contemptuous and passive-aggressive attitude, an attitude that is actually far worse than that of those resorting in a ton of f-bombs and direct callouts. Because you cannot do something about it. You cannot call them out because personally attacking someone is not allowed, but at the same time sweeping, derogatory statements and arguing in bad faith are not acted upon as long as they do not name specific people or use offensive language. The whole thing devolves into glancing blows and indirectly attempting to trip up others, incredibly frustrating if you just want to have a proper coversation without worrying about someone rudely interrupting. It looks healthier than an attack punctuated with some choice insults and directed at specific people, but in a number of cases, it arguably isn't. So those that get tired of every thread they might have an interest in getting derailed into oblivion eventually bother less and less while those thriving in this passive-aggressive environment carry on and drive even more people off, aided by the fact that there are progressively fewer sticking around to argue (pointlessly) with them. It's a vicious cycle. Amechra mentioned having a large ignore list upthread; for all I know, I might be part of it myself, but for what it's worth, mine's also quite long and it's not just because of leftover Sorcerer King alts.

[Kane0]

I might be part of it myself, but for what it's worth, mine's also quite long and it's not just because of leftover Sorcerer King alts.
I havent seen him in ages either come to think of it.

[Ortho]

Yeah... not naming any names, but I've put a surprising number of people on my ignore list thanks to this subforum.

I've only ever put one person on my ignore list and even then only because they were being inexcusably rude, but...yeah, if it's this widespread I'm inclined to think it's a systemic issue rather than those specific individuals.



But either way, low activity is probably more healthier than high activity. Generally if a thread is like 20 pages deep its a red flag, at least lately.

Tell me about it. I've been too scared to open up the OneD&D Druid and Paladin thread because I know exactly what I'll find.

[Aimeryan]

Well, my joke that never seems to have landed is to call it 5.1 (1 for OneD&D and .1 because it really isn't a different game in any meaningful sense). It is meant to be pejorative (in a tongue-in-cheek way)

Given how they seem to be simplifying things even further than 5e, I call OneD&D in my head Baby's First D&D. In the forums I regularly go for D&Done because to me it is getting to the point I might be done with D&D.

[Mastikator]

I've only ever put one person on my ignore list and even then only because they were being inexcusably rude, but...yeah, if it's this widespread I'm inclined to think it's a systemic issue rather than those specific individuals.

I concur with the system issue theory, given that different platforms can have widely different levels of toxicity. I mean this forum is definitely less toxic than 4chan or twitter, but those are really low bars. Even as a semi-former "one of those" specific individuals I think the problem isn't uh.. us.

Edit-


And this combines with GitP's quirks to create a miserable experience.

The Playground might be seemingly cleaner on the surface with its behavior rules, but at times that has contributed to a very toxic environment in certain topics, the aforementioned optimization ones very much included, that cannot be fought off. People are hijacking and derailing threads while holding an extremely contemptuous and passive-aggressive attitude, an attitude that is actually far worse than that of those resorting in a ton of f-bombs and direct callouts. Because you cannot do something about it. You cannot call them out because personally attacking someone is not allowed, but at the same time sweeping, derogatory statements and arguing in bad faith are not acted upon as long as they do not name specific people or use offensive language. The whole thing devolves into glancing blows and indirectly attempting to trip up others, incredibly frustrating if you just want to have a proper coversation without worrying about someone rudely interrupting. It looks healthier than an attack punctuated with some choice insults and directed at specific people, but in a number of cases, it arguably isn't. So those that get tired of every thread they might have an interest in getting derailed into oblivion eventually bother less and less while those thriving in this passive-aggressive environment carry on and drive even more people off, aided by the fact that there are progressively fewer sticking around to argue (pointlessly) with them. It's a vicious cycle. Amechra mentioned having a large ignore list upthread; for all I know, I might be part of it myself, but for what it's worth, mine's also quite long and it's not just because of leftover Sorcerer King alts.

You know for the longest time I've had this nagging feeling that some the rules of this forum is completely backwards and directly empower bad faith behavior. I was worried "is it just me?", but seeing someone else basically hit the nail perfectly gives a bit of relief. So thank you for that :smallsmile:

[Goobahfish]

Geee thanks for this bright and optimistic note to start my day with!

:smallbiggrin:

Well, on the bright side a lot of traffic will migrate to whatever 1D&D becomes and if the mods make the (probably sensible) to merge the forums as suggested above, it will keep going. Hopefully in that form for as long as possible.

That said, I 100% agree with Chaos Jackal. I'd even go further (perhaps controversially so). 3.5 and a forum like this works kind of because 3.5 is badly designed? That is to say, the kinds of conversations which occur regularly here are due to the flaw in the system which creates this kind of fun space where you are trying to work out how to do something that A) fulfils an obvious fantasy trope but doesn't work with the base classes or B) combines two or more weird mechanics into something cute and potentially OP. It is a fun game to play but not exactly D&D?

Given that there seems to be a shift towards slightly more bland things (a good example is Wildshape or the new merged spell lists) the potential in these 'streamlined' games for 'theorycrafting' is quite diminished which is good and bad (good for 'baby D&D' - thankyou Aimeryan) but bad for old-school crunchy D&D stuff.

[Chaos Jackal]

I havent seen him in ages either come to think of it.

Maybe they got burnt out too, who knows?


That said, I 100% agree with Chaos Jackal. I'd even go further (perhaps controversially so). 3.5 and a forum like this works kind of because 3.5 is badly designed? That is to say, the kinds of conversations which occur regularly here are due to the flaw in the system which creates this kind of fun space where you are trying to work out how to do something that A) fulfils an obvious fantasy trope but doesn't work with the base classes or B) combines two or more weird mechanics into something cute and potentially OP. It is a fun game to play but not exactly D&D?

It's less about being badly designed (though of course it's a flawed system) and more about the things, in general, that it allows you to do combined with a massive library. As someone (I forget who) once put it in the 3.5 subforum here, 3.5 has appeal because it allows you to optimize into godhood, but it has even more appeal because it allows you to optimize seemingly non-functional things into relevance.

If you have an idea for a character, odds are that a class or prestige class covers it. If said class or prestige class isn't good, you can still make something out of it the majority of the time. I mean, we're talking about a system where PCs and NPCs play by the same rules. You wanna do X, the way Y does it? Well, there are ways to gain access to it. And the options are so many, their combinations are so numerous, that even after twenty years you still have the chance of seeing something you haven't seen before.

Whereas 5e? Not only are the pieces much fewer, the system itself prevents you from fitting them in whatever way you want. You can still make things, of course, but it's not the seemingly endless stream of ideas that 3.5 was. And as you correctly put it, it seems like it'll become worse with One D&D apparently headed in a direction of even more limited and simple design. You just can't have as long-lasting interest in discussions and as many or unique ideas with such a system.

[Unoriginal]

I have to acknowledge the fact I've likely contributed to making this subforum worse for quite a few people over the years.


For this, hollow as it may sound, I sincerely apologize.

I will try my best to be better, and do better.

[firelistener]

Since I've been on GitP, I can't say I've noticed a real trend in any direction, but I'd be interested in seeing data on post frequency. Probably like most obsessed with D&D, I think stats are fun lol.

But this place is indeed a bit slower than more popular things like Reddit, 4chan, or Twitter. Personally, I exclusively use this forum now because those others allow or even encourage meanness. People can say really hurtful things and nothing is done on the faster-paced and more popular discussion platforms. Yeah, you might eventually get banned for using slurs or threatening violence on Reddit or Twitter, but nothing is really done for just insulting someone. Here, I feel comfortable knowing that most posters will at least attempt to be kind to one another, and that means a lot to me. This is my favorite place to discuss 5e.

[MadBear]

I noticed today that the threads in the bottom of the first page have a last post of almost 10 days ago. Was it always like this? I feel like there used to be more movement in the past.

I've felt over the years this forum has become increasing negative and cynical in a way you didn't see 4-5 years ago. As a result I post less and read less threads.

[Brookshw]

I've felt over the years this forum has become increasing negative and cynical in a way you didn't see 4-5 years ago. As a result I post less and read less threads.

Longer than that I think, I gave up on the 3.5 subforum around 2016 because there was a certain toxicity.

The current decline doesn't seem to be just this subforum, other subforums have seen a drop off as far as I can tell.

[Psyren]

When it comes to 5e, other than WOTC ( and it's offhshoots like Crit role), who are major third party publishers that do 5e content?

Wellllll, I don't know how you define "major" but Matt Colville, the Dungeon Dudes, and Pointy Hat have all released stuff I found interesting. And of course you can just browse through DTRPG/DMsG and see what catches your eye.

It's natural there's a lull right now though as people are waiting to see what the adoption of 1DnD ends up being before any major releases.


I keep TastyKibbles and LaserLlama on my radar, plus our home-grown Grod has done two 'everything' style books.

+1 LaserLlama as well! Their stuff is over on GMbinder IIRC.


Over eight and a half years, there's less content than there was in two years of 3.5 and while you could make an argument for bloat and a ton of useless crap being in 3.5's book releases, it also doesn't change the fact that even said crap stirred people to speculate and create; Iron Chef, a contest where you're given a terrible prestige class and asked to make the most out of it, is still running in GitP after 13 years, because there's just so much to experiment with before you even get to the actually good stuff. 5e not only has significantly less content, it's also significantly stricter in what it allows.

This is a very valid point. Even if a high-volume stream ends up containing (or consisting of) effluent... well, effluent makes great fertilizer; so too has 3.5's torrent of jank led to a great deal of ideas on how to make the most of it.



And then you have things about forums in general and GitP in particular.

Forum culture has declined, let's not forget that. Sure, it's not dead, but these are the years of Reddit; hell, we're probably almost past those years too. The years where the largest communities for any given thing were found in dedicated forums are long gone. Forums were already past their heyday in 2014 and it's been nine years since then. People move on and ever-fewer ones are added in. And well... Like it or not, optimization discussions have always been a very big contributor in forum talk and on top of the aforementioned issues about 5e not lending itself too well to such talk, especially by now, there's the added problem of the 5e community in general being indifferent or even averse to it.

This is valid too. Simply put, traditional message boards like this one are declining as a whole. They're costly to maintain and moderate, they're a magnet for bad actors and bots, and they lack the agility and features of their younger siblings like Reddit, Discord, or social media. Discord communities can have things like animated avatars, integrated image hosting, polls, games, voice chat, community controlled bots, and many more things that forums would struggle with. And the game we're all talking about is a lot easier to actually play in an environment like that compared to PbP. So it's no surprise that fewer and fewer of the younger generation(s) would gravitate to places like this one. It's nothing to be sad over I'd say, it's just the nature of all things technology - the same happened with BBS and AOL chatrooms back in the day.

[animorte]

Here, I feel comfortable knowing that most posters will at least attempt to be kind to one another, and that means a lot to me. This is my favorite place to discuss 5e.
GitP is not a host to the same (nearly) free reign of toxicity as found on those mainstream platforms.* I personally have never participated in them.

I know I've mentioned this once before: Even at it's slowest, GitP still has loads more activity than DnDBeyond forums, last I posted there several months ago.

I also think it's definitely worth mentioning that, when somebody makes requests, there's a lot of friendly and helpful response contributed to the discussion (whether that thread descends into chaos or not).

*Thanks to mods that do their job.

[Psyren]

I know I've mentioned this once before: Even at it's slowest, GitP still has loads more activity than DnDBeyond forums, last I posted there several months ago.

The activity there has picked up pretty heavily in the wake of The Controversy I'd say. I also lurk on the DnD subreddit anda few other places. (Can you tell my day job is boring? :smallbiggrin:)

[Amechra]

And this combines with GitP's quirks to create a miserable experience.

The Playground might be seemingly cleaner on the surface with its behavior rules, but at times that has contributed to a very toxic environment in certain topics, the aforementioned optimization ones very much included, that cannot be fought off. [...] It's a vicious cycle.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who has noticed this, honestly. The really distressing part, to me at least, is that sometimes I'll make the mistake of thinking that a thread that has devolved into an argument is still on-topic, make a long-ish post with my thoughts on the topic, and then get soundly ignored. Really kills the urge to participate, honestly — the only posts that seem to get any traction are the ones that (in retrospect) are just me feeding the fire.

That said, I think a lot of this can kinda-sorta be blamed on what we actually have to discuss here. Traditionally, these are the three BIG topics that people like to talk about when chatting about RPGs:


Optimization! Glorious min-maxer monkeycheese.
Setting details and DEEP LORE.
Homebrew/"here is this thing I made!", from NPCs to new monsters and player options.


#1 is kinda off the table, thanks to 5e being nowhere near as broken or complex as some other RPGs (and it has a slow release schedule on top of that). #2 is off the table because the team writing 5e appears to be entirely uninterested in this part of the game (and, when they do engage in it, it tends to be big picture stuff that no-one really cares about, like the "every dragon is the Chrestomanci" thing). And #3 is honestly hampered by a ton of things that push homebrewing off-site that I don't really want to discuss in depth because they make me sad (I miss the thriving homebrew community we used to have here).

With those three topics largely off the docket, that kinda leaves us with...


"I am new and confused - can you explain this thing?"
"We finally got some new spoilers — here's my opinion on them!"
"Let's talk about playstyles (and why mine is the best, and yours is trash garbage)."
"It's been 15 minutes — shall we have another thread beating the dead horse? I hired a guy who said that he's a necromancer..."


And those aren't really fertile grounds for discussion, especially since #2 has largely turned into "yeah, we're not excited about new spoilers because WotC has pulled shenanigans".

[ZRN]

I've also been surprised by how little discussion there is here around the new playtest content. It feels (to me) like even stuff like earlier UA releases got a lot more varied discussion... now we seem to get one long-ish thread for each UA release, and everything past maybe page 3 is back-and-forth on one or two specific technical aspects of that.

Like, the current druid/paladin thread is 35 pages long. I bet there are some great ideas/critiques/etc. in there but they get buried.

I have no suggestions for fixing this. :-/

[Psyren]

FYI we are getting some D&D news today (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?655229-D-amp-D-Direct-Showcase-Today-at-9am-PST) - I made a separate thread for that.


I've also been surprised by how little discussion there is here around the new playtest content. It feels (to me) like even stuff like earlier UA releases got a lot more varied discussion... now we seem to get one long-ish thread for each UA release, and everything past maybe page 3 is back-and-forth on one or two specific technical aspects of that.

Like, the current druid/paladin thread is 35 pages long. I bet there are some great ideas/critiques/etc. in there but they get buried.

I have no suggestions for fixing this. :-/

My approach was to pull out just the bits I wanted to comment on more specifically (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?655181-1DnD-Two-ideas-to-preserve-Paladin-identity-(Steed-Smites)) into a separate thread :smallsmile:

I wouldn't worry about ideas being buried though, they're paying more attention to the surveys anyway.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Which is weird in all honesty, I feel like alot of the time arguments here alot of the time are between people that are in 90% agreement but the 10% is the hill people have chosen to die on.

I agree with this. I used to keep this fact more in the forefront of my thoughts when posting, but will confess I have lost sight of this useful truth on more than one occasion.

There are a number of reason for the decay of internet civility, and many of those reasons, have been excellently detailed by other posters.

I do wonder if some of the friction that has been evident, might be in small part to fracturing within the D&D market.

New D&D products receive hardly a mention here. The most recent Anthology modules, have had no threads, that I am aware of. This might be due to the fact that many people here haven’t bought them.

The same might be true for the more recent campaign/Adventure Paths: Dragonlance and Spelljammer. A lot of people, likely didn’t buy the products, and there may be an insufficient plurality to engender discussion.

OneD&D is also divisive, in the sense there are many people that simply are not that interested in OneD&D as a concept, or in dissecting ever changing Playtest documents.

So if the topics in general, are failing to keep people’s interest we add emotions to the mix, and suddenly we are very interested…but discussions about feelings, likely have to be conducted in a different manner, to be effective, then more data driven discussions.

Personally, I am fatigued of the constant nitpicking. 3 years ago, at the start of the pandemic, I had more time to craft a detailed post.

My life, now, has largely returned to a pre-pandemic rhythm, and I lack the time to craft a D&D post that is as detailed as professional publication trying to prove that Oumuamua was or was not a Solar Sail.

I like discussions that highlight the differences of play and interpretation that people have, but I simply don’t think the trend of trying to ‘prove’ that there is only one correct way to play the game is fruitful, or even that enjoyable.

[Amechra]

I've also been surprised by how little discussion there is here around the new playtest content. [...]

Unfortunately, I feel like that's because quite a few people have just kinda checked out of the next edition for a bunch of different reasons. The other issue is that the current batch of UA docs aren't really portable — when you get something like the Giant UAs or whatever, we get to discuss them in the context of the entirety of 5e. When we got the Druid/Paladin, we get to discuss them in the context of... what, the Bard/Cleric/Ranger/Rogue that we've seen so far? Nothing's set in stone.

That said, we did get the Wild Shape threads out of the latest UA, so...

[Kurt Kurageous]

We agree it's not what it was. I got here almost eight years ago.

Setting aside things beyond the control of GitP, I don't want to complain because I don't want the BE a moderator.

But given the state of things:
I don't say anything vaguely controversial any more for fear of being misconstrued as antagonistic by a moderator looking to champion a nameless faceless underrepresented imaginary/invisible community to whom the comment was not addressed.

Sometimes censure happens, and random reinforcement is the most effective kind. It only has to happen once for it to be chilling. And that has consequences.

Whataboutism aside, when we are all inoffensive, there is no discussion and no learning.

I don't mind being proven wrong with reason. But I have to take a position first in order for it to be attacked. You truly know a position once you've been force to defend it.

Every system is perfectly designed to get the results it gets. This is the system, these are the results.

Without introspection and intentional change, the law of atrophy and entropy will prevail.

[JonBeowulf]

With those three topics largely off the docket, that kinda leaves us with...


"I am new and confused - can you explain this thing?"
"We finally got some new spoilers — here's my opinion on them!"
"Let's talk about playstyles (and why mine is the best, and yours is trash garbage)."
"It's been 15 minutes — shall we have another thread beating the dead horse? I hired a guy who said that he's a necromancer..."


And those aren't really fertile grounds for discussion, especially since #2 has largely turned into "yeah, we're not excited about new spoilers because WotC has pulled shenanigans".

I was just going to say we're running out of stuff to discuss, but you went deeply and explained why we're running out of stuff to discuss. Thanks!

This forum has been for... several years and there's been lots of analysis into every aspect, feature, and quirk of the game. Every rule has been thoroughly dissected. Debates over someone's opinion get boring pretty quickly. There's just not much left.

[Willie the Duck]

And then you have things about forums in general and GitP in particular.

Forum culture has declined, let's not forget that. Sure, it's not dead, but these are the years of Reddit; hell, we're probably almost past those years too. The years where the largest communities for any given thing were found in dedicated forums are long gone. Forums were already past their heyday in 2014 and it's been nine years since then. People move on and ever-fewer ones are added in.
It probably doesn't help that The Order of the Stick doesn't have the same draw and name recognition it once did.

[e42randy]

Whataboutism aside, when we are all inoffensive, there is no discussion and no learning.

...

Without introspection and intentional change, the law of atrophy and entropy will prevail.

But people can have introspection and intentional change without offending others. If anything, people shut down and are less willing to consider other points of view when the speaker is being offensive. I for one prefer inoffensive discussion and learning, and I'm sure there are other people who read silently and don't engage because they feel the same.

[strangebloke]

I've felt over the years this forum has become increasing negative and cynical in a way you didn't see 4-5 years ago. As a result I post less and read less threads.

Its not negativity, its antiquation.

How many posters here are under 30? I can't say for sure, but based on conversations I've had I'd guess its a severe minority. This is an old-ass forum that's still running on Vbulletin and a rules list that hasn't been seriously updated in ages. Moderation is handled through PMs. Forums aren't where the culture is made these days, and Giantitp is a boomer forum even compared to other boomer forums. Kids getting into DND are going to end up on Reddit or Youtube or tumblr before they end up here.

So the userbase is aging, and over time there's attrition. People stop playing DND. Or they switch to games that aren't really heavily discussed here (I've been playing more Fabula Ultima and Ascendant recently). Sad to say it, but people also simply die. Heck there's even a lesser form of "death" among members. Permanent infractions are a thing, and sooner or later old members accrue enough of them to get banned. I have 300 points that are never going away, meaning if I get infracted even once or twice now I automatically get looked at as someone who might need to eat a ban, even though I've been clean for most of a year. That's just the nature of the structure.

MaxWilson, for example, used to be one of the most active people on this subforum, but he's just gone now entirely. Did that make for less toxic discussions? Well it certainly made for fewer discussions.

Even among older gamers who are looking for an oldschool forum after getting back into DND, there's really no reason for them to end up on Giantitp. The webcomic updates sporadically and the other media that used to update on this site like Erfworld is gone the way of the dodo. Much more likely they'd end up on DNDbeyond's forums or Enworld's.

At some point the question isn't "Why aren't there more people in the 5e subforum of giantitp" and is "why is anyone in the 5e subforum of giantitp?"

[ZRN]

FYI we are getting some D&D news today (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?655229-D-amp-D-Direct-Showcase-Today-at-9am-PST) - I made a separate thread for that.



My approach was to pull out just the bits I wanted to comment on more specifically (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?655181-1DnD-Two-ideas-to-preserve-Paladin-identity-(Steed-Smites)) into a separate thread :smallsmile:


I do appreciate that approach - I'd rather see a couple pages of discussion on a single sub-topic than 30+ unfocused.


I wouldn't worry about ideas being buried though, they're paying more attention to the surveys anyway.

I meant buried in the sense that it's hard to get a discussion going on them - I really don't think the devs are reading this forum. I just enjoy the discussion!

[Dr.Samurai]

Its not negativity, its antiquation.

How many posters here are under 30? I can't say for sure, but based on conversations I've had I'd guess its a severe minority. This is an old-ass forum that's still running on Vbulletin and a rules list that hasn't been seriously updated in ages. Moderation is handled through PMs. Forums aren't where the culture is made these days, and Giantitp is a boomer forum even compared to other boomer forums. Kids getting into DND are going to end up on Reddit or Youtube or tumblr before they end up here.

So the userbase is aging, and over time there's attrition. People stop playing DND. Or they switch to games that aren't really heavily discussed here (I've been playing more Fabula Ultima and Ascendant recently). Sad to say it, but people also simply die. Heck there's even a lesser form of "death" among members. Permanent infractions are a thing, and sooner or later old members accrue enough of them to get banned. I have 300 points that are never going away, meaning if I get infracted even once or twice now I automatically get looked at as someone who might need to eat a ban, even though I've been clean for most of a year. That's just the nature of the structure.

MaxWilson, for example, used to be one of the most active people on this subforum, but he's just gone now entirely. Did that make for less toxic discussions? Well it certainly made for fewer discussions.

Even among older gamers who are looking for an oldschool forum after getting back into DND, there's really no reason for them to end up on Giantitp. The webcomic updates sporadically and the other media that used to update on this site like Erfworld is gone the way of the dodo. Much more likely they'd end up on DNDbeyond's forums or Enworld's.

At some point the question isn't "Why aren't there more people in the 5e subforum of giantitp" and is "why is anyone in the 5e subforum of giantitp?"
I think you and Kurt Kourageous hit it on the head.

I'm mostly here because I've been here for a long time and I'm already familiar with it and I play PbPs here. But boy does this forum have some questionable rules. People are allowed to engage in some pretty rotten forms of argumentation, but you're not allowed to call them out on it. There's also an art form to being as insulting and passive aggressive as you can be without technically breaking the rules. And there's no... honor? in these discussions. People will be nasty throughout a conversation, and the moment they don't like a response, they weaponize the mods and report it. So it's like... either eat all the crap people dish out, or play the "I report you first" game, neither of which I'm interested in.

I myself have 300 infraction points as well. I mentioned to a mod that the boards have really changed since I originally started posting here and they disagreed, but I don't recall ever being concerned I would be banned years back. Now it's like... you have to think if it's worth it to enter a conversation, give an opinion, engage with someone. The level 7 optimization thread that just got locked... the second I saw a certain someone start posting I was like... should I stay in this conversation and risk getting reported or should I play it safe and exit? Within a day the thread was locked.

To Kurt's point, the system results in what it is designed for. And that goes for the actions WotC has taken, the content they are putting out, and the rules this forum enforces.

[strangebloke]

To Kurt's point, the system results in what it is designed for. And that goes for the actions WotC has taken, the content they are putting out, and the rules this forum enforces.

Don't think you can blame wotc at all. Not a fan of their recent content, but lol go on YouTube. Go on Reddit. Catch a crit role stream. Watch honor among thieves starring Chris Pine.

DND is like a thousand times bigger now than it was in this forums heyday, wotc's questionable releases aside.

The hobby isn't dying off.

This site is.

[Pex]

Sorry. I've been quite busy lately. I've been lapse in sharing my wisdom to the masses.

[Aimeryan]

You cannot call them out because personally attacking someone is not allowed, but at the same time sweeping, derogatory statements and arguing in bad faith are not acted upon as long as they do not name specific people or use offensive language.

Yup. Even calling out generalised arguments (so not any single person) as bad faith (via misdirection/oversaturation of a discussion by means of easily deconstructed strawmen and/or moving of goalposts) can get you warned and the post censored - however, the people that maintain the behaviour are free to continue. Reminds me a lot of the some real world politics where you can get thrown out of a chamber of discussion for pointing out someone is being misleading, but the misleading person is free to continue.

[JonBeowulf]

Sorry. I've been quite busy lately. I've been lapse in sharing my wisdom to the masses.

I gotta say, man, half the time I'm like "Preach it, Pex!" and the other half I'm like "WTF are you talking about?!" Don't ever change, dude. Don't ever change.

[TyGuy]

I notice more red text these days, if you catch my drift. And the fact that I can't explicitly say what I meant by that and have to delicately skirt the issue, if you catch my drift.
WoTC has made design decisions about 5e that can't be earnestly discussed in this sub forum for 5e. But people wanted to, and they tried. It derailed threads for months, and got them locked. It's slowed down, but I suspect that did some damage.
I've noticed about the same rate of locked threads, however, in 2017 they were silly necros, now they're verboten conversations and tone policing.
I've witnessed uneven policing as well. If I'm not alone, perhaps that has driven down engagement. Double standards are pretty off-putting.

[Xervous]

I notice more red text these days, if you catch my drift. And the fact that I can't explicitly say what I meant by that and have to delicately skirt the issue, if you catch my drift.
WoTC has made design decisions about 5e that can't be earnestly discussed in this sub forum for 5e. But people wanted to, and they tried. It derailed threads for months, and got them locked. It's slowed down, but I suspect that did some damage.
I've noticed about the same rate of locked threads, however, in 2017 they were silly necros, now they're verboten conversations and tone policing.
I've witnessed uneven policing as well. If I'm not alone, perhaps that has driven down engagement. Double standards are pretty off-putting.

The one silver lining is it’s nowhere near RPG.net grade involvement.

[Rukelnikov]

I gotta say, man, half the time I'm like "Preach it, Pex!" and the other half I'm like "WTF are you talking about?!" Don't ever change, dude. Don't ever change.

This got a chuckle out of me, and I gotta say I feel the same lol

Btw, I'm not sorry about what I started

[strangebloke]

Sorry. I've been quite busy lately. I've been lapse in sharing my wisdom to the masses.
I mean you're actually bringing up a good point.

As people leave/get banned certain perspective are just straight up lost. To bring up Maxwilson, I often disagreed with him, but he had a unique POV. Nobody's repping that POV.

And as the diversity of opinions gets concentrated around a smaller and smaller group of people you end up with less diversity and more stagnation. For example you've got a pretty particular POV, and in a diverse forum with lots of posters it'd be a breath of fresh air.

But if the forum becomes you and Tanarii or unoriginal or whoever locked in a cage match with no third voice, I don't think anyone would want to be present, even as a spectator.

I notice more red text these days, if you catch my drift. And the fact that I can't explicitly say what I meant by that and have to delicately skirt the issue, if you catch my drift.
WoTC has made design decisions about 5e that can't be earnestly discussed in this sub forum for 5e. But people wanted to, and they tried. It derailed threads for months, and got them locked. It's slowed down, but I suspect that did some damage.
I've noticed about the same rate of locked threads, however, in 2017 they were silly necros, now they're verboten conversations and tone policing.
I've witnessed uneven policing as well. If I'm not alone, perhaps that has driven down engagement. Double standards are pretty off-putting.
I think its pretty normal to assume the mods are biased (even if they're very fair) but I do echo Jackal's concerns that the rules incentivize a certain kind of ass-covering posting style more than actual good-faith debating.

You see this all the time on here someone will go, "but of course when other people do stupid things they have bad games :smallamused:" and that's fine, they've not called anyone stupid or said they're playing the game wrong, they've just VERY OBVIOUSLY implied that.

[Dr.Samurai]

Don't think you can blame wotc at all. Not a fan of their recent content, but lol go on YouTube. Go on Reddit. Catch a crit role stream. Watch honor among thieves starring Chris Pine.

DND is like a thousand times bigger now than it was in this forums heyday, wotc's questionable releases aside.

The hobby isn't dying off.

This site is.
I hear you, and you're probably right. But I'm skeptical. It's certainly more popular, but I'm not convinced that it's because things are going in the right direction, and therefore it will remain at least this popular. Maybe it will because it's just easier for things to be mainstream these days.

Maybe I'm the orchestra on the Titanic, and the things that I like are no longer relevant.

But I suspect if there was interesting stuff to talk about re 5E, we'd be talking about it on this forum.

Sorry. I've been quite busy lately. I've been lapse in sharing my wisdom to the masses.
Lol, apology accepted :smallbiggrin:

Yup. Even calling out generalised arguments (so not any single person) as bad faith (via misdirection/oversaturation of a discussion by means of easily deconstructed strawmen and/or moving of goalposts) can get you warned and the post censored - however, the people that maintain the behaviour are free to continue. Reminds me a lot of the some real world politics where you can get thrown out of a chamber of discussion for pointing out someone is being misleading, but the misleading person is free to continue.
This states more clearly what I was trying to say, and I didn't realize Chaos Jackal had already said it as well.

I gotta say, man, half the time I'm like "Preach it, Pex!" and the other half I'm like "WTF are you talking about?!" Don't ever change, dude. Don't ever change.
Lol, agreed, and I tend to feel this way about a lot of the posters here, which is part of the joy in posting here. You get to see how other people think about the game.

(Unrelated but sort of related, kind of... but up until recently I used to pronounce genasi as "jen-uh-sigh", and one of our group is playing one and said "jen-ah-see". And I was like... Oh. My. God. How did I not know to pronounce it that way all this time???)

I notice more red text these days, if you catch my drift. And the fact that I can't explicitly say what I meant by that and have to delicately skirt the issue, if you catch my drift.
WoTC has made design decisions about 5e that can't be earnestly discussed in this sub forum for 5e. But people wanted to, and they tried. It derailed threads for months, and got them locked. It's slowed down, but I suspect that did some damage.
I've noticed about the same rate of locked threads, however, in 2017 they were silly necros, now they're verboten conversations and tone policing.
I've witnessed uneven policing as well. If I'm not alone, perhaps that has driven down engagement. Double standards are pretty off-putting.
Agreed.

The one silver lining is it’s nowhere near RPG.net grade involvement.
I'm not sure if this is the site I checked out but I looked for alternatives and one site I went to hit me with a million pop-up bubbles about all types of things that I just was not interested in, so needless to say I didn't create an account there. Are there active PBP forums out there? The one here is actually pretty slow for 5E game recruitment.

[TyGuy]

I think its pretty normal to assume the mods are biased
And that assumption is evidenced by getting reprimanded for the same behavior in posts that don't get scrubbed. The differences being who posted and what side of the argument the post is on.
I brought it up to the mod. Nothing happened to the post that did the same thing. And I got told effectively to mind my business and don't worry about even application of forum rules.
When questioned, the mod wouldn't commit to any clarification on why it was ok for some and not for others. Refused to lay out definitions or objective parameters. It was clear they made a subjective call, and didn't want to make a comment that limited their ability to make more subjective calls in the future.
So yes, when the mod acts like a mind reader and unevenly applies the rules because they hold a favorable assumption for one poster and an unfavorable assumption for another. I am going to assume there is a bias at play.

Edit: fixed quote

[Zuras]

Unfortunately, I feel like that's because quite a few people have just kinda checked out of the next edition for a bunch of different reasons. The other issue is that the current batch of UA docs aren't really portable — when you get something like the Giant UAs or whatever, we get to discuss them in the context of the entirety of 5e. When we got the Druid/Paladin, we get to discuss them in the context of... what, the Bard/Cleric/Ranger/Rogue that we've seen so far? Nothing's set in stone.

That said, we did get the Wild Shape threads out of the latest UA, so...

I think discussing the virtues (or lack thereof) of the 1DD playtest material just seems pointless for many people.

I don’t particularly like the changes they’re making, but I also realize many of my complaints are basically “who moved my cheese” annoyance with changes that seem driven purely by business considerations (new version for the 50th anniversary of D&D, etc.). If they came up with some brilliant new mechanical solution to the issues that actually plague current 5e, I’d be fascinated to see it, but the changes don’t seem to be aimed at balancing short and long rest classes, giving martials non-combat things to do at high levels, or giving DMs better tools to evaluate encounter difficulty.

Most of the 1DD stuff can be summed up as “not terrible, but not justifying a purchase of three new books either”. Also, the interesting stuff where they’re attempting to rework everything into standardized subclass levels simply can’t be judged till the whole system is in place. Until then, there’s no way to judge if the simplifications were worth it, so there isn’t really much to discuss if I don’t just want to do some old school grognard grumbling.

[animorte]

I Maybe I'm the orchestra on the Titanic, and the things that I like are no longer relevant.
Ha, nicely put. I think it's less about that and more in line the mainstream comment. There are more easily accessible platforms for the younger folk (I'm just over that 30 threshold previously mentioned). :smalltongue:

Oh, I meant to add, it's nice to have a mobile version of the site, but I always wondered whether or not there's, as the saying goes, "an app for that."

[Captain Cap]

Are there active PBP forums out there? The one here is actually pretty slow for 5E game recruitment.
RPG Crossing (https://www.rpgcrossing.com/index.php?referrerid=78341) is pretty active, is very newbie friendly (there is an entire section for solo games to help new members get a grasp of the rules and modality) and from my limited experience games tend to be more long-lived than here.
For 5e games in particular it's not atypical to reach 20 or so applications, and even more obscure games manages to scrape together a whole party usually. The other side of the coin is that if you're a player looking for a game, competition to get in can be quite cut-throat :smallbiggrin: (unless you go for one of those few games that are always recruiting)

[Dr.Samurai]

Ha, nicely put. I think it's less about that and more in line the mainstream comment. There are more easily accessible platforms for the younger folk (I'm just over that 30 threshold previously mentioned). :smalltongue:
Lol, yeah, I definitely prefer the forum medium to something like Discord. I was on the Eberron discord server for a time (still am but it's muted). It's just way too much to keep up with the conversations for me. Here, I can read through the thread or the previous pages, but the chat mediums go so quickly that it's overwhelming. (Also, that server was just way too political for my tastes as well. To their credit though, the mods seemed to not appreciate it and tried to clamp it down. Maybe it's gotten better now.)

RPG Crossing (https://www.rpgcrossing.com/index.php?referrerid=78341) is pretty active, is very newbie friendly (there is an entire section for solo games to help new members get a grasp of the rules and modality) and from my limited experience games tend to be more long-lived than here.
For 5e games in particular it's not atypical to reach 20 or so applications, and even more obscure games manages to scrape together a whole party usually. The other side of the coin is that if you're a player looking for a game, competition to get in can be quite cut-throat :smallbiggrin: (unless you go for one of those few games that are always recruiting)
Awesome, thank you! I will give it a shot!

[strangebloke]

I hear you, and you're probably right. But I'm skeptical. It's certainly more popular, but I'm not convinced that it's because things are going in the right direction, and therefore it will remain at least this popular. Maybe it will because it's just easier for things to be mainstream these days.

Maybe I'm the orchestra on the Titanic, and the things that I like are no longer relevant.

But I suspect if there was interesting stuff to talk about re 5E, we'd be talking about it on this forum

Well, there's an awful lot of content out there on the internet as far as DND goes - I think it'd be arrogant to think we'd seen it all. There's always discussions of lore and table dynamics and such, which on a healthier forum would be an infinite well. But here such topics are not an infinite well because there's only like a dozen regular posters. I could bring up a question about line of sight rules but I sort of already know what Pex and RSP29 and such are going to say. There's no point.

[Rukelnikov]

Well, there's an awful lot of content out there on the internet as far as DND goes - I think it'd be arrogant to think we'd seen it all. There's always discussions of lore and table dynamics and such, which on a healthier forum would be an infinite well. But here such topics are not an infinite well because there's only like a dozen regular posters. I could bring up a question about line of sight rules but I sort of already know what Pex and RSP29 and such are going to say. There's no point.

I share that feeling a bit that once you've already talked many things with some posters you kinda have a guess as to what they are gonna say, and I guess that having a stagnant or receeding population means the percentage of posters who you feel like you already know what are gonna say gets proportionately higher with the passage of time, since you get to know the posters better.

I must say though, I get the feeling that once a week or so I'm reading thru a thread by someone who's nick I don't recognize, the question becomes why don't they stick around? Or maybe they do but don't post?

[Luccan]

I'll echo those who say the forum can get nasty regardless of the rules. I've definitely ejected entirely from threads when I notice the topic turning away from the main point and I now consciously try to avoid being the person to do it. Also, you can genuinely be super insulting even within the forum rules without there being much recourse (I suspect this is partly because reporting people just on the edge of breaking the rules tends to shut threads down). I've definitely logged out for a few days over feeling things got too hostile. For my part I'm sorry if I've made anyone feel like they didn't want to be here.

I think another issue here vs the 3.X forum is that we don't have any legacy threads except the UA. And that has always been tense because it's the future of the game, essentially. 3.5 has competitions, rules patch discussions like the Level Adjustment threads, and even fan made rankings to discuss i.e. the Tier List. Here we don't have any games/rituals like that. Except, again, the argument-inviting UA threads

[strangebloke]

I'll echo those who say the forum can get nasty regardless of the rules. I've definitely ejected entirely from threads when I notice the topic turning away from the main point and I now consciously try to avoid being the person to do it. Also, you can genuinely be super insulting even within the forum rules without there being much recourse (I suspect this is partly because reporting people just on the edge of breaking the rules tends to shut threads down). I've definitely logged out for a few days over feeling things got too hostile. For my part I'm sorry if I've made anyone feel like they didn't want to be here.

I think another issue here vs the 3.X forum is that we don't have any legacy threads except the UA. And that has always been tense because it's the future of the game, essentially. 3.5 has competitions, rules patch discussions like the Level Adjustment threads, and even fan made rankings to discuss i.e. the Tier List. Here we don't have any games/rituals like that. Except, again, the argument-inviting UA threads

Well there's Ludic's build thread.

But yeah.

[animorte]

Well there's Ludic's build thread.

But yeah.
And we've got the 5e subclass and base class contest threads over in homebrew that I've been hosting for several months now! It's a good read, at least.

[strangebloke]

And we've got the 5e subclass and base class contest threads over in homebrew that I've been hosting for several months now! It's a good read, at least.

honestly the fact that our homebrew gets pushed to a different subforum where it has to compete with all the other content really doesn't help matters.

but the last time I brought this up and how people tried to skirt this so that they could get actual feedback, I nearly got infracted. Soooooo

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: closed for review.