Low-Magic Wealth by Level?

[Drakevarg]

Because "low magic" is a bit of a spicy phrase in D&D, I'd like to preface this for clarity: I don't mean NO magic. I do that stuff in WoD now. "Low magic" here means no full casters and no magic marts. Magic items are a thing, but you can't just buy them from a catalog. Unfortunately, it's that latter issue that's become a problem.

My last party wiped because they rolled all casters, one of whom was a Mesmerist, and I had already written up the first dungeon to be 90% mindless creatures by the time I realized how much of an issue that would be. So in addition to the next round of characters being a bit better-balanced, I decided to up the party to level 3 this time around so I didn't need to worry about them being wiped again by a stray rottweiler or something. Then comes the question:

Say, if we're starting at level 3 what should our starting money look like?

Now, the simple answer is obvious: 3,000 gp. However, as I've found many times over scripting low-magic NPCs, you really don't need that much money to outfit yourself if magical trinkets worth as much as a house simply are not on the menu. So, the rates need adjusting. But to what? Unfortunately my Google-fu has failed me; whenever I search I just get discourse on whether low-magic as a concept has any merit, which is a conversation I'm sick of reading. I just need some numbers: assuming I'm handing out magic items through the story as needed, what should I adjust the WBL to? One very-hard-to-find line in the Core Rulebook (p. 453-454) suggests dividing NPC WBL by half for low-magic campaigns, would the same rule of thumb work for PCs?

Edit: (A cursory look through my own post history tells me this is like my fourth thread on WBL over the years. Why does this subject keep coming back to irritate me?)

[Maat Mons]

Bear in mind, full plate still costs 1,500 gp. And mithril costs +1,000 gp even for light armor. I wouldn't start reducing wealth until PCs already have enough for good non-magical equipment.

[El Dorado]

You could use the heroic column (https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Step%206:%20Gear&Category=Creating%20NPCs) in the NPC Gear table. For third level, that would be 1,650 gp. The examples in the NPC index (at least the ones written for the NPC codex) use this amount. I'd check the NPC's equipped gear to see if it falls within the range you want your PCs to have (and then adjust up or down as needed).

[Drakevarg]

You could use the heroic column (https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Step%206:%20Gear&Category=Creating%20NPCs) in the NPC Gear table. For third level, that would be 1,650 gp. The examples in the NPC index (at least the ones written for the NPC codex) use this amount. I'd check the NPC's equipped gear to see if it falls within the range you want your PCs to have (and then adjust up or down as needed).

I was musing on this option, possibly paired by giving each PC a custom magic item. Maybe half that, since again they don't need magic gear (I get Maat Mons' point about full plate and such, but 3rd level seems a bit early for mithril to me). So, 825 gp I guess? Plus the wildcard that is custom items.

[Seward]

OK first to answer your specific problem.

The first 3000 gp are spent this way by most characters.

Non-Platemail Martial - a mw bow adj strength, a golfbag of MW dr penetrating items (eg silver mace, cold iron longsword cover 5 different common low level DR types), armor that adds +0 armor check penalty (+1 studded leather or mithril chain shirt + mw buckler is common) and they're saving up for either a +1 weapon or an adamantine weapon. Until they get a +1 weapon, they are covering that lack with something like Oil of Shillelagh, Magic Weapon or Bless Weapon or they trust you not to put in grudge-monsters with magic-DR if you are depriving them of such items.

Platemail Martial - is spending 2000gp on a masterwork full plate with masterwork armor spikes, and his other 1000gp on masterwork weapons or perhaps a mw shield. His ranged attack is likely a javelin.

The above 2 usually have a light warhorse and kit if the party travels as well, although sometimes the less martial characters provide it as they need less gear.

You don't have primary casters (I assume including bard), but those who have caster levels in something like Ranger or Paladin would normally ditch some of the MW weapons mentioned and maybe live with mw studded leather or scale male in order to get a wand or two. Wand of CLW being the most common, but something like Endure Elements, Magic Stone, Magic Weapon, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge etc might be worth skimping on other gear for some characters.

Level 3 isn't where WBL is primarily spent on magic items. In a game like yours they'll replace the potions and wands (which is all the magic they'd have) with alchemical items or perhaps an extra masterwork weapon or that +1 studded leather with a chain shirt until they find some mithril. Just give them the 3k gold and let it go :)


Edit: (A cursory look through my own post history tells me this is like my fourth thread on WBL over the years. Why does this subject keep coming back to irritate me?)

Likely because the game is balanced around WBL, including what casters and martials can do, so tinkering with it can cause unexpected consequences.

Most notably if you allow casters at all, WBL will tend to impact them less than martials as many spells can, for short times, compensate for those magic items you can't buy without magic marts, or at least cooperative crafting NPCs that can make stuff for you. Plus casters can just take crafting feats and make a WBL starved campaign even more obviously skewed because they'll halve the cost of everything and craft whatever they can afford, just like a magic mart but half the cost.

Been there done that, it's not ideal.

now...positive suggestions.

The primary balance fix you need to do is to take out all the "WBL tax" items, most notably Enhancement Bonus and Resistance Bonus items, and replace them with bonuses of the same type every character gets as class features as they level, simulating the effect of buying said items. That will close most of the problems with how monsters are scaled and balanced. Which is to say, a bit more than Vow of Poverty gives, for everybody.

Roughly how people spend most of their WBL is this:

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Attributes and resistance bonuses to saves
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About every 3 levels, add a +1 cloak of resistance (+2 at 6, 3 at 9 etc, peak at +5 around L15)

About every 4 levels, boost primary combat stat (usually strength or casting stat) by 2, peak at +6 around level 12.

Around every 5 levels boost the two primary defensive stats (dex/con) by 2, peak at +6 by Level 15). classes with deeply important secondary stats (like Paladin or Cleric charisma) should get a similar bonus to that stat, anyone who doesn't have such a secondary stat probably adds it to wisdom, as it is a saving throw stat.


After level 15, just add inherent bonuses to all the stats you boosted with enhancement bonuses at +1 per level to reflect the books you aren't allowed to buy in a low magic/wbl game. That'll eat up the excess WBL in a way that does reflect how folks spend money.

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Martial Armor Class and Weapon "taxes"
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About every 4 levels also assume any weapon, armor or shield weilded by any martial has a +1 enhancement bonus. A martial like a monk not allowed to use armor should just get about a +1 armor bonus per 2 levels (mage armor equivalent by L8, +8 bracers of defense by level 16)

Martials should really also get additional boosts to AC, probably +1/3 levels to reflect other misc AC gear they often buy (ring protection, ioun stone +1 AC) or generate via the consumables your lack of a magic mart will deprive them of (all can use potions, some can use wands/scrolls but likely won't have caster level to get the most out of a barkskin or shield of faith if they cast it themselves).

Finally, damn near every martial buys boots of haste by level 10. Just let your martials automatically use Haste in the same way (no time action to activate, burns 1 round from a pool with each use). I kind of like getting a use per day for each level after 5 (so 5 at level 10, 15 at level 20) but you could just give them 10 uses/day at level 10 as a reward for that achievement and call it a day.

Likewise at about level 10, a martial should be able to align their weapon. matching alignment or if neutral in an axis, picking which to do. At level 15, they can add a second alignment, using same criteria, excluding outcomes that could make a "good+evil" or "law+chaos" weapon. These choices should be made once and fixed.

In normal games, these enhancement bonuses are often cast by full casters, and the need for GMW and Matic Vestment due to ruinous WBL costs beyond the basic +1 causes many martials to give up on AC, and buy things like pearl of power3 and/or rod of lesser extend to encourage primary casters to share their spells. In a WBL-light game with no magic mart, they can't do that.

Full casters don't get these martial bonuses, they have spells and class features for that (see Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer high AC/save threads. They're fine, except for the attribute+resistance item taxes). Martials still need to find/get crafted special material weapons, but silver and cold iron are "buy at level 1 stuff" even in a low magic world...just find a decent smith and maybe make an effort for the raw materials and even Adamantium shouldn't be out of reach by level 4-6ish if the PCs care enough to line up the materials and either a master smith or perhaps a wizard with fabricate.

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What this means
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You can focus your magic item placement on cool stuff, that does interesting things and make use of consumables not crafted by PC's pretty rare. There are still some basic problems. A martial who isn't getting spell assistance from a primary caster and can't buy potions will have some problems the game doens't expect in its balancing, but, for example, being able to pick up any bow at level 12 and have it be a +3 bow with haste they can generate as needed will at least help somewhat vs flying enemies, even if said martial is losing all his HTH feats Hackmaster sword bonuses and such, but they will at least get an iterative attack, the bow will likely all have a strength bonus etc...they'll do SOMETHING to contribute, especially as they don't need an action to drink a potion of fly, and another to get maybe one swipe when charging a flying enemy...)

However as GM you can just choose to not add encounters that cause such problems without also placing some magic items as treasure or in local markets that might help if the PC's find/buy it. Those problems are minimal compared to the havoc caused as WBL expects steady increases in AC, saves, weapon attack mods and basic damage(and damage reduction penetration and, yes, haste effects) that are unavailable to a low magic party.

[Drakevarg]

Likely because the game is balanced around WBL, including what casters and martials can do, so tinkering with it can cause unexpected consequences.

...

However as GM you can just choose to not add encounters that cause such problems without also placing some magic items as treasure or in local markets that might help if the PC's find/buy it. Those problems are minimal compared to the havoc caused as WBL expects steady increases in AC, saves, weapon attack mods and basic damage(and damage reduction penetration and, yes, haste effects) that are unavailable to a low magic party.

I think what annoys me most is how passive-aggressive the entire system is. Balance is evidently written around the assumption that certain magic items will be obtained at certain intervals, but nowhere in the actual text are these ability increases actually laid out as obligatory, so unless the players are all system veterans there's absolutely no way to guarantee that they'll get any of those things and not, say, a fleet of ships or enough holy water to drown an entire city full of zombies.

Like, if these abilities are considered obligatory to remain viable at high levels, why on Earth are they not just class features?

[Seward]

Like, if these abilities are considered obligatory to remain viable at high levels, why on Earth are they not just class features?

They should have been. (ok based on my prior post to solve this issue you can guess that I think this is a fundamental flaw in the game system, most easily resolved by just allowing magic marts and WBL as intended, but can be worked around if you know the problem exists)

It just wasn't as obvious back when 3.0 first came out what they'd done, to the designers or the players. By the time people like me had played enough games to see that every single character at level 15 had an amulet of con+6 and a cloak of resistance+5 or they were frighteningly vulnerable to the threats, the game was an edition change and a zillion splatbooks too late to change anything that fundamental.

[Drakevarg]

They should have been. (ok based on my prior post to solve this issue you can guess that I think this is a fundamental flaw in the game system, most easily resolved by just allowing magic marts and WBL as intended, but can be worked around if you know the problem exists)

It just wasn't as obvious back when 3.0 first came out what they'd done, to the designers or the players. By the time people like me had played enough games to see that every single character at level 15 had an amulet of con+6 and a cloak of resistance+5 or they were frighteningly vulnerable to the threats, the game was an edition change and a zillion splatbooks too late to change anything that fundamental.

Hm... well, I've already houseruled that feats trigger every other level and characters get +2 ASIs every four levels (and that feats and ASIs are equivalent if they want to spend one on the other), so at least some of that is already mitigated. Plus Defense Bonuses from Unearthed Arcana. Think it's enough or should I adjust saves too?


You don't have primary casters (I assume including bard),
Just no 9-level casters. 6-level and 4-level casters are okay (mostly, list is tailored a bit less broadly than that).

[Seward]

The best way to sanity check your adjustments is to build a few characters and level them up in a magic-mart way with usual WBL.

I've played characters that didn't play the AC game, and those who neglected saves into high levels. The amount of system mastery you need to not faceplant and be useless because you are dead or disabled is fairly high, but such is often the road of light infantry type characters, rogues and archers, who tend to try to pick enemies they can drop quickly so their counterattack doesn't matter.

For a typical character who isn't playing rocket tag and trying to win an ambush or quickdraw, they need their basic defensive items, and saving throws+hitpoints are MORE important than armor class for anybody but frontline fighters.

Hm...let me break it down a bit.


Primary importance

1. Offense. If you can't hit an appropriate AC as expected for your level and deal meaningful damage against most EL appropriate enemies you are useless as a martial, and your game is basically all martial or support casters. If you don't provide the to-hit, DR penetration and damage potential normally provided by magic weapons, special material weapons, strength boosters and eventually haste boots, your PCs will start to feel ineffectual. If a support caster is required in every adventuring party you can make up the difference with something like a bard castiing Inspire Courage and Haste every fight, but that means 1 character isn't contributing to offense.

The game assumes that a bard-type is going to supercharge an already strong party offense to make up for being one less person contributing to damage.

You're on the right track providing extra to-hit. But you need to keep up on damage too, both in raw numbers and in ways to reasonably pierce damage reduction in absence of a typical magic mart. Even low level D&D assumes you'll use consumables like Oil of Magic Weapon (magic DR), Oil of Bless Weapon or Align Weapon (alignment DR), get an adamantine weapon at some point. If such aren't available martials will devolve into "2 handed raging barbarians with power attack" because that's a rare chasse that can contribute ok while ignoring most of the DR-bypassing stuff.

If you don't provide specific DR stuff (like "you can just align your weapons at level 10") you could just give every martial some DR penetration automatically vs any DR that grows as they level.

2. Hitpoints/Saving Throws.
All characters need to take a certain amount of damage. For non-frontliners it is usually "take a hit from being charged, then take a hit while moving away from AOO and still be standing". Also it is "get hit by a fireball appropriate to my level and not need to be rescued even if I fail a save". Hitpoints are so vital that low con characters should be redflagged by GM and con items are a given.

Characters have an expected saving throw level for "good" and "bad" saves that is reflected in monster scaling, both character-enemies and scaling by hit-dice that various monsters do. If you don't keep up, saves might as well not exist, you will just always fail your bad saves and only rarely pass a good save. So most folks try to stay in ranges where they can sometimes pass a bad save and usually pass a good save. Doing so pays big dividends when attacked by a lot of low level casters, a situation that in 3.x might not earn you xp but wipe a party with subpar saves.

Spending on saves is super boring but not getting to act because of bad saves usually motivates players to suck it up and spend here eventually.

3. Armor Class
For backrankers like support casters, this can often be tanked completely but in a low magic game this falls in 3 categories.

a. I just don't invest at all. I use other strategies to deal with melee and physical ranged attacks (spells perhaps, fighting from long range, having a bazillion hitpoints and so much offense you kill them before you die, having mobility to ignore melee brutes while going for other enemies) and I do not expect the party to need me to tank ever. These characters absolutely need enough hp to survive a "power attack full charge + cope with any AOO caused by retreating).

b. I invest a normal amount. This will keep me reasonably safe from non-brute enemies who will do small amounts of damage some of the time, but not protect me from brute enemies primary attack. The armor is there to limit how much they can power attack and how many iterative attacks hit. Such a character can nearly always pass the "charge+move away" test and can often stand in front line and trade full attacks for maybe a round or two, but without support can't do more than that.

c. I'm the tank, AC is what I do. character build AND WBL are heavily invested in AC. Such a character can go toe-to-toe for extended periods with melee brutes, only rarely getting hit. You still need a big HP pool for when they roll double-20s, plus it is quite helpful to have a bit of self healing ability to refresh the pool. If the character forgets to do offense, they'll be ignored, the best tanks establish themselves as serious threats early, SEEM to be exposed to full attacks and by the time the opposition realizes it is hopeless the rest of the party runs wild.

You should be shooting for "a normal amount" which is to say "WBL spent on AC when it seems cheap" and that is the amount I suggested above in the prior post for inherent bonuses. The true tank in the party will have feats, class abilities and perhaps be the person issued a found defensive magic item by the party to be far superior to the "normal amount" when facing a dangerous physical threat in full attack range.

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Just take something basic like a archer ranger, spend their WBL mostly (say 80%) on the "item tax" stuff I mentioned, make the same character with your adjustments without those "item tax" items and see how their to-hit, number of attacks in full attack, damage per attack, armor class and saves are, compared to what you provide by leveling.

If it is very different you probably have to adjust the bonuses or allow a bit more routine magic item stuff in the game.

[catagent101]

I think what you're looking for is the automatic bonus progression (http://legacy.aonprd.com/unchained/magic/automaticBonusProgression.html) variant rule.

[Maat Mons]

If you don't want these 3rd-level characters to start with access to mithril, you can just say "no exotic materials as part of starting gear." You could also say "no masterwork items as part of starting gear," if you want.

If no one's trying to do archery, I guess 850 gp just means half-plate armor is the best anyone will start with.

If someone needs a mighty composite longbow (Str 20), that's 600 gp right there. That would leave room for splint mail (200 gp), a greatsword (50 gp), and nothing else. Such is the pain of the archer. Honestly, this is why my low-level Fighter NPCs never use bows. Only slings and thrown weapons for ranged attacks.

[Crake]

I think what you're looking for is the automatic bonus progression (http://legacy.aonprd.com/unchained/magic/automaticBonusProgression.html) variant rule.

Yeah, this is exactly what you want.

It comes in two varieties, a low magic item version, where you get half wbl, but the bonuses start at level 3, or a no magic item variant, where the bonuses start at level 1

[Seward]

That variant rule looks decent, but I still recommend leveling up a comparison character to sanity check it at the level ranges you intend to run.

There might be some surprising holes in the capabilities or it might fall behind at higher levels (as Vow of Poverty in 3.x did). My guess is that it falls behind after level 10, it does better than VoP but makes some of the same assumptions about high level WBL that just aren't accurate (it isn't a linear progression - wealth advances faster than the costs of getting items, so +2 stat items or +1 ring are quite expensive in low levels but you can max several out in mid teens while having several secondary items at +4 stat or +3ish ring level, and a cloak of resistance+5 or armor+5, the whole thing, is about as cheap as just moving one item from +4 to +6). So you have a slow burn in level 1-10 where you get minimal items in a variety of areas and maybe one good item then suddenly everything starts rapidly accumulating to where at L16 your "tax items" are done, and you start looking at inherent bonuses via wish books.

VoP both had the stuff come too late and cap too low, this rule at least seems to bring up some of the basics to cap eventually, but it's happening level 17-18 not 12-15, and only 2 attributes will really rise, where in a normal game your two most important rise like that but several less important are bought "when they seem cheap", including anything that involves a saving throw. Part of the issue is these rules never account for the WBL savings a single spell (Greater Magic Weapon) tends to cause high level parties. They assume a fighter is blowing an extra 50k on his sword just for enhancement and therefore can't afford a +4 con item, +4 dex item and +5 cloak of resistance. Or so it seems.

I do like that it is customizable to some extent (Legendary XXX etc) for the needs of particular character classes, which is a weakness of the "wealth tax item" approach I sketched out, but have not really tested it to see how it holds up.

[Drakevarg]

I can look at a sanity check, but at a cursory glance I think the only real thing missing from my current houserules as-is would be to change saves so good saves are 3/4 HD +2 and bad saves are 1/2 HD. Seems easier to remember than "at this level, this level, and this level, gain +1" and has basically the same end result.

[Seward]

If the sanity check works you are doing it right.

There are a lot of ways to arrive at the correct answer. The danger in simple formulas is scaling over many levels it might diverge from what you expect, either high or low. That formula for saves is certainly a solid step in helping the situation. I'd take a moment and think about hitpoints too. No constitution items might make your characters a bit more fragile than expected as the game progresses. Not really a problem till level 8ish, but it'll get significantly worse as you aproach L12-16.

If you aren't intending to play over a large level range, you won't tend to encounter such traps and any reasonable rule of thumb will probably work out ok, especially if you are comfortable in those level ranges and intuit what is needed.

[Maat Mons]

If you want a very simple set of adjustments, maybe try a sanity check on this:

Potential bonuses from magic items

AC: +5 (magic armor) +3 (+6 Dex item) +5 (deflection) +5 (natural armor) +2.5 (+5 manual) = +20.5
Attack/Damage: +5 (magic weapon) +3 (+6 Str/Dex item) +2.5 (+5 manual) = +10.5
Hit Points: +3 (+6 Con score item) +2.5 (+5 manual) = +5.5 x level
Save DCs: +3 (ability score item) +2.5 (+5 tome) = +5.5
Saves: +6 (resistance item) + 3 (ability score item) +2.5 (+5 tome/manual) = +11.5
Skills (most): +3 (ability score item) +2.5 (+5 manual) = +5.5
Skills (some): +3 (ability score item) +10 (competence item) +2.5 (+5 manual) = +15.5

Simple replacements

Add character level to AC
Add half character level to attack, damage, and saves
Add quarter character level to save DCs and skill checks
Also add half skill ranks to skill checks
Gain max HP each level instead of rolling

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Non-magical characters are basically NPCs, so give them NPC WBL?

[vasilidor]

by level 20 a typical fighter is going to have around a +8 to just about everything from magic items. Attack, damage, AC, saving throws etc. And they need that in order to be effective against CR 20 monsters. In the case of AC, this will probably hit around +13 from magic before taking into consideration what the actual armor is. Without this magic they very quickly start lagging behind around level 6. By level 12 a fighter is not going to be really any good against any CR equivalent to their level.