Paladin CHA Build Advice — Hard(ish) Mode Campaign

[sirrah_]

[Redacted – Old Post]

[Willowhelm]

The Rules

The big change is to long rests (LR) and short rests (SR), which become one week and 8 hours, respectively. In part, this means reduced opportunities for healing and regaining hit die; and an effective nerf to abilities that recharge on rests. RIP low-level Paladin spell slots and chain-smiting.


I’m sure you’ll get advice on the rest but I just wanted to call this out.

It doesn’t matter how far apart your rests etc are in game time as much as how far apart they are in number of encounters (or at least, resource draining activities).

If the DM throws 10 encounters in one day with a long rest every 24hrs, it’s the same as 10 encounters in a week with long rest at the end of the week.

Obviously spell durations do come into effect. An 8hr or 24hr spell isn’t going to last as long in relative terms, but the key is resource draining and replenishment, rather than “time”.

Do you have any idea how many encounters are to be expected?

[Ogre Mage]

I would take one level of hexblade warlock, possibly two. In a setting like this at-will abilities will be even more powerful and the warlock's at-will is the best. When you attack with your hex weapon the hit and damage bonuses are based on Charisma, not Strength or Dexterity. This allows you to be single ability dependent focused on Charisma. And your hexblade curse and spell slot(s) come back after only a short rest (which is one day in your case). Many paladins struggle at range but eldritch blast solves that problem.

[Kane0]

The Feats
Here’s where I’m really tripping up. I can’t decide whether to take CHA to 18, CON to 16, or roll with Inspiring Leader as a support feat. (Polearm Master sounds cool AF but I think it would need to wait.)

However! The go-to half-feat here, Fey Touched, is a little less appealing with the rest system. It would give Misty Step and another spell—but each would only have one use between long rests. This does ~double the pally’s spell pool at very early levels, and arguably having more spells in such a straitened economy is good.

But I also wonder if other +CHA feats with Short Rest refreshes get stronger here. For example, Fey Teleportation or Telekinetic?

Resilient: CON definitely appeals, but there are another couple of options that I find interesting.

Chef gives +1 CON and helps with the food prep aspect. GM has said treats OR special meal per short rest—not both—but that can double up with cooking a normal meal (potentially also slightly restorative with Xanathar’s rules). I really like this one from a roleplay angle, but treats are really nerfed by the rest system. GM, though, has offered a bonus to extending rations if I take this.

The real interesting contender here is Aberrant Dragonmark, which gives +1 CON and fills in a couple of options lacking under this ruleset. First, my pally would get a cantrip—I’d go with Booming Blade, which also allows some battlefield control and thus party support. Pally would also get a LVL 1 spell that refreshes on a short rest, which is massive. For this, I would probably choose Shield—boosts AC and may help save Lay on Hands for party members.

You're right, Inspiring Leader is the feat you're measuring everything else against here. I think you're correct in saying Fey Touched loses its edge in these circumstances.

Healer might be a contender if someone else takes Inspiring Leader or are using something else that hands out temps (like an artillerist artificer for example), otherwise your Chef idea has merit and seems to fit with what the DM is looking for. Certainly better than the Gourmand UA version in this case.

Resilient is probably not a huge deal if you can make it to level 6 really, but if you are mostly worried about the early game it's a solid pick.

Aberrant Dragonmark, eh I guess? +1 con and short rest shield is fine, but the 50/50 spend hit die for temps or damage a random creature is meh.

You seem to have the right of it though, enjoy!

[CTurbo]

I would take one level of hexblade warlock, possibly two. In a setting like this at-will abilities will be even more powerful and the warlock's at-will is the best. When you attack with your hex weapon the hit and damage bonuses are based on Charisma, not Strength or Dexterity. This allows you to be single ability dependent focused on Charisma. And your hexblade curse and spell slot(s) come back after only a short rest (which is one day in your case). Many paladins struggle at range but eldritch blast solves that problem.


He said Hexblade is a part of the Blade Pact and would be a level 3 feature.

I highly recommend the Blessed Warrior Fighting Style so you can get a ranged damage cantrip to help with the lack of ranged damage.



Can you tell us more about this homebrew Oath? That would help better to give advice.

99% of the time, I'm against all Paladins having to take a Warlock dip, but this may be the 1% where it would really help considering the ridiculous long/short rest rules. Short rest classes hugely benefit from this. I would be tempted in your case to be primarily Warlock with just some Paladin levels, but then again I have no idea about your Oath.

[Ogre Mage]

He said Hexblade is a part of the Blade Pact and would be a level 3 feature.

I highly recommend the Blessed Warrior Fighting Style so you can get a ranged damage cantrip to help with the lack of ranged damage.


Can you tell us more about this homebrew Oath? That would help better to give advice.

99% of the time, I'm against all Paladins having to take a Warlock dip, but this may be the 1% where it would really help considering the ridiculous long/short rest rules. Short rest classes hugely benefit from this. I would be tempted in your case to be primarily Warlock with just some Paladin levels, but then again I have no idea about your Oath.

Ah, I missed that part! :smallredface:

If the OP is trying to decide between the Undead and Undying patrons I would go with Undead. It is far better. The Undying patron is $h*t in my view. But yes, perhaps we should hear more about this homebrew oath.

[Aimeryan]

I would consider ranged combat and pushback to be even more important than usual, since taking damage and healing would be more difficult. Aura of Protection likely needed to mitigate those Con Saves for Exhaustion too.

Check out this build on Tabletopbuilds, particularly the Undead variant (click the Undead version to switch it over): https://tabletopbuilds.com/flagship-build-oath-of-the-watchers-paladin/

Generally, you want two levels of Warlock for Repelling Agonising Eldritch Blast, seven levels of Watcher Paladin for the party winning Initiative (which is even more important with the rules in place) and of course the Aura of Protection. Then if the campaign goes on longer add in Sorcerer levels to make better use of the Spell Slots (Paladin Spells are not great; Bless is one of the best).

That said, with more Short Rests being common than the norm maybe just jumping back into Warlock for the rest of the campaign is preferable. In that case, I would likely Start at Pal 1, grab 3 levels of Undead Warlock instead of 2 (better Short Rest resouces and level 2 Spells), grab the rest the other Pal levels to get to Watchers Aura at level 7 Pal, then continue as Warlock. The Repelling Agonising Blast keeps you doing most of the job of the Warlock, while the Pal levels get you that sweet Aura of Protection and Initiative Aura.

[Keravath]

I’m sure you’ll get advice on the rest but I just wanted to call this out.

It doesn’t matter how far apart your rests etc are in game time as much as how far apart they are in number of encounters (or at least, resource draining activities).

If the DM throws 10 encounters in one day with a long rest every 24hrs, it’s the same as 10 encounters in a week with long rest at the end of the week.

Obviously spell durations do come into effect. An 8hr or 24hr spell isn’t going to last as long in relative terms, but the key is resource draining and replenishment, rather than “time”.

Do you have any idea how many encounters are to be expected?

Not quite true since the 8 hour short rests mean that the party should expect at least six short rests or more over their week long adventuring "day". Even more short rests are possible if the party goes for two weeks without taking a week off to rest and recoup resources. This type of situation swings the balance more towards short rest classes. For comparison, while using the normal rules, I've rarely seen more than two short rests even during a day with eight encounters.

The monk is going to shine in this campaign since they will have full resources every day. I'd also suggest a Mercy monk since it is a decent way to get some healing available with careful ki management.

Also, dungeon crawls will be difficult or almost impossible unless they are scaled to the party having no resource replenishment for the entire set of encounters. {Edit: and expect that the party would need to take a week off for a long rest after any sort of adventure like that}

[Keravath]

That's a good and, in retrospect, key point.

The GM's said he'll aim for 6-8 medium difficulty encounters between long rests, and generally includes (or is open to) options that avert combat.

ETA: He's also implied he expects about 4 encounters to end up with combat, assuming a party that successfully avoids combat as/when possible.

I'd suggest that the con rolls in combat, exhaustion house rules, restoring health from below half hit points, and the long/short rest rules are ALL aimed at making combat as undesirable as possible.

I also suspect that the DM hasn't play tested these house rules at all yet so things may not work out as expected.

In particular "At half HP, characters become “bloodied,” meaning they can’t roll hit die to regain health. (They’d need rest, a remarkably good meal, a potion/cure spell, etc.)" seems to me will become very onerous.

Hit die are only rolled on short rests, unless that has been house ruled as well, which means overnight. This rule means that any combat that leaves a character at less than half hit points will force the party to take a long rest unless they have a lot of healing potions and spells to get the character above 50% hit points so that they can use hit die.

Losing more than 50% hit points could happen to one or more characters in the first combat encounter of the week forcing the party to rest for a week, have one fight, and rest for another week. You may want to ask the DM about this type of situation since either the house rule isn't correct or the DM hasn't really thought about it well enough.

This is especially true if most party healing is dependent on long rest spell slots.

The DM might have to give out ridiculous numbers of healing potions to try to patch up this potentially non-functional house rule.

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Another comment to the OP, given the track record of campaigns not even reaching level 2, how far do you expect this one to get?

Are these different people? Have they played an extended game before? Do they like high level play and is the DM comfortable enough to run a high level game? How long do you realistically think the campaign will run? These are all decent questions to contribute to how you want to build your character. A character that doesn't really come together until level 8 is less than desirable in a campaign that may only hit level 6 or could even take 6 months to a year to hit level 6. It might be worth checking with the DM how quickly they see the characters progressing in levels and perhaps roughly how long they think the campaign might run then plan the character accordingly.

The house rules cited favor a party with stealth, strong ranged attacks, that use ambush tactics to defeat opponents with minimal damage taken since being damaged in this game has very negative consequences. Any character forced to be at the front needs a high AC and decent hit points though honestly they will still go down. I'm not sure how well a paladin fits the play style that the house rules seem designed to encourage.

Even a goblin with a critical hit will drop a level 1 character below 50% HPs or even knock them out. An orc could potentially insta-kill a first level character with a crit. Crits don't care about AC since they always hit.

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All that said, play what you like and hopefully the DM may modify the house rules if they turn out to be too onerous or not much fun.

For a game that may only reach lower levels, I would lean towards a single classed character. If the game spends a lot of time leveling up then level 5 may feel very lackluster if you are multiclassed and don't have whatever level 5 feature you'd really like. On the other hand, for a game run like Adventurer's League or something with fast leveling this isn't an issue.

I'd also check with the DM which aspects of the hexblade feature are restricted to level 3. Is it just the hex weapon/attack with charisma? Is it also the armor and weapon proficiencies that are part of the hexwarrior feature? Is there any difference if someone wants to play a single classed hexblade warlock? (The house rules seem pretty onerous against a hexblade warlock if that is the character someone wants to play rather than taking a dip).

Dhampir sounds like an interesting race to pick - spider climb looks particularly useful. However, the bite feature is only usable proficiency bonus times/long rest. In tier 1, you get to use it 2 times between long rests and it at best heals d4+str (in your case instead of con) so it doesn't do much mechanically but it is a decent role play feature but with these rules, it won't keep your character alive.

Whatever you choose, it looks like it could be an interesting game.

[da newt]

Just general advice - I completely agree w/ the above.

For this sort of a campaign I'd avoid melee types, and long rest casters - this system nerfs them by design. Hi CHA, Hi Stealth, and ranged attacks will be much more effective. Paladin is a great class, but when you get only a couple smites per week, it gets less appealing. I'd strongly consider going DEX over ST so you can stealth when desired w/ med armor. Unfortunately this makes multiclassing very costly unless your DM waives the ST requirement.

BTW - I love the dhampir and especially it's spider climb. It's a great way to limit how often you are targeted and to bypass traps/combat.

With the crazy frequency of CON saves (every 3 rounds), I'd push res con to the top of my feat list.

Undead>>>Undying

I'd be temped to go fighter 1 (for armor/shield and def fs and 2nd wind and CON saves) then all Undead Warlock for this campaign.

If this campaign lasts, it will be very different from most typical games.

[CTurbo]

Usually in a thread like this when there is already an obvious planned class/subclass, I try to help what is asked and not try to get the OP to change his entire plan like playing an entirely different thing, but it's no surprise that you're getting those responses already. But there are some good call outs in there. Those homebrew rest rules are brutal and it does make you rethink decisions that would normally be the best options.

The Paladin is, IMO, one of if not THE strongest classes in 5e, and like I said earlier, I'm usually an advocate for single class Paladins since you get great stuff at nearly every level from 1-20, but I don't think I would like to play a Paladin under the circumstances presented. Your Auras are always on, but you'll rarely be using your other class features. Multiclassing helps, but puts you behind the curve as in getting your second attack and/or auras later than normal, or you wait until way later in levels to multiclass in which you've played for weeks/months as a single class Paladin anyway.

One big call out that I agree with is that in a campaign that wants you to avoid combat as much as possible, I would NOT play a heavy armor character with an 8-10 Dex. If you really want to stick with your Paladin idea, which would be fine, ask your DM if he's waive the 13Str multiclass restriction and prioritize Dex>Str. If not, I'd consider a single class Dex Paladin. Dump Str and put 16 Dex.

But yeah also as mentioned above, we're all wondering if the DM has any idea on what he's getting into with these short/long rest rules. It sounds like there is going to be an excessive amount of downtime, and I would 100% narrow down my class options to Rogue, Battlemaster Fighter, Monk, or Warlock if I were to play with these rules. I'd also lobby to start at a higher level than 1 since 1 combat would likely result in taking a week off.

[CTurbo]

Yeah I would probably put this Paladin idea on the shelf for next time and choose something else this time.

I would probably play a Rogue since most of the time the Rogue doesn't care about rests outside of needed to spend hit dice. I vote Swashbuckler that wants Dex to 20 ASAP and probably starts and ends with a 16 Cha. You have enough skills you could probably still play the face. Half-Elf or Tabaxi make my favorite Swashbucklers. Maybe grab 2 levels of Warlock for a bit of magical goodness and some invocations like Mask of Many Faces, Misty Vision, or Armor of Shadows for a better-than Light Armor AC. Or want even more skills? Beguiling Influence. Maybe even a 3rd level of Warlock for Chain pact improved familiar. I can see that as being even more powerful than normal in this type of game.

I've played in campaigns with lower healing and longer rests before, but never to this extent. It does make for a much harder play, and it does take some fun away from a lot of classes.

[da newt]

I think the above rule set could be made to work, but it will make for a very different type of campaign. With this set of rules I'd expect one combat per day / 'short rest' to be the norm, and two on the same day to be an extreme event. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just different.

A lvl 3 Pali will have 3 spell slots aka smites to dole out over the course of a week. How many combats do you need to spread those over? Who knows. You'll also have 3 hit die and 15 hp of lay on hands for the whole week (unless you get below 50% hp and are out of magic healing - then they'll need a week off to heal at all), and there's a good chance many of the PCs will be exhausted to some level more often than not. Oh and of course if you do use all your hit die, after you take a week off, you get half of them back ...

I'm just not so sure what you'll be doing with all of your non adventuring time. Dungeons don't really work anymore - unless you clear the first trap or monster encounter then retreat to sleep for the night, then return the next day and proceed one more challenge, then leave, and maybe two more days of that before you need to spend a week at a spa for R&R ...

It will encourage solving problems in different mundane ways and utilize cantrips. It may make for a great 'how can I solve this w/ shape water and minor illusion?' puzzle.

That leaves a ton of time for social encounters, travel, prep, planning, crafting, training, farming, doing dishes and laundry, shopping, research, gambling, sleeping, working your normal 9-5 job before donning your alter-ego super hero / adventurer persona and heading out to dole out vigilantly justice ...

Depending on the DM and Players, it could be great or a disaster. Only way to find out is to give it a go and try to make it work.

[Chronos]

One point I'll mention, since you say you don't want to be using healing spells: A paladin's Lay On Hands is better than healing spells, anyway. There are only two amounts of healing that are relevant: Either a single point, or all of it, and a paladin can efficiently do both. For single-point healing, you can use just one single point, and you've got a lot more of those than a cleric has Cure spells. And for big healing, you have the option of dumping your entire supply of Lay On Hands all at once, if it's essential to get someone not just on their feet, but healthy, again, all at once.

Asterisk: Your DM is probably also houseruling in some way to make one-point pop-up healing less effective, so that aspect of it is less relevant. The big burst healing is still useful, though.

[solidork]

I've been thinking lately about how the warlock Invocation Fiendish Vigor is actually quite powerful at low levels - being able to start every combat with 8 extra hit points is a huge deal when that's almost as much as your total HP. A Hexblade Warlock with an origin that gives them a free feat for Eldritch Adept(Fiendish Vigor) seems like a front runner for most durable level 1 build across multiple encounters. Fiendish Vigor eventually falls off, but you can switch it out at any level up and there are lots of good utility options you can take even if you aren't a Warlock - if you are, it gets even better.

I don't anticipate I'll ever play in the kind of high lethality low level grindfest where doing this would be able to shine to its full potential, but it's something to keep in mind.

[Samayu]

In this environment, CHA is king, since you can (and should) use social skills and spells to avoid combat. Also, healing magic will be very important. Keep that in mind if the other person doesn't play the cleric. Of course, with the exhaustion rules...

I wonder what the fun part of this campaign is supposed to be. Is this going to be focused on non-combat operations? A lot of social encounters, and he's trying to punish you for entering combat?

[Keravath]

Hey all, thanks for these comments. I'd had a bit of foreboding about the ruleset, and if it also looks pretty brutal to more experienced folks I may try to negotiate a couple of details. I'd love to play this paladin, but less so if I can only cast spells on alternate Thursdays.

I'd be curious—has anyone played with rules that make things harder, but don't rely so much on straight-up restriction?

ETA: I like the idea of hard/er mode in principle, but have more experience within videogames rather than TT. The GM mentioned the Skyrim Frostfall mod and modded or unmodded survival difficulty in Fallout 4 as inspiration. (Unhelpfully, I haven't played either :P) He does have a lot of experience running games, but I don't know if these rules are newly brewed.

If this set's non-negotiable, I'll swap the character over to a fighter, rogue, or warlock.

Just an additional comment. I was thinking more about the con save issue.

"CON saving rolls are frequent—every 3 rounds in battle and at the end of battle, and periodically/variably during travel. The CON saving rolls link up to an exhaustion system, with penalties for various levels of exhaustion."

1) I really don't see how this is workable at all unless the entire exhaustion system is also being rewritten. As written, one level of exhaustion is lost on a long rest - so that clearly has to change otherwise the party will spend months recovering from one day of travel and fighting when they walk out of it with 3 or 4 levels of exhaustion.

2) I don't really see how it can be better or more "realistic" if 18 seconds of fighting will result in the adventurers all being tired. In addition, presumably the same system applies to the NPCs too? In that case, it is just a lot of extra book keeping that will either destroy the meaning of combat or be insignificant. Low level paladins don't have proficiency in con saves so they are probably looking at typically a +2. This means a DC13 gets failed about 1/2 the time. Even a DC 10 is more than 1/3 of the time.

3) The inspiration for the system coming from video games is also a red flag to me. What might work in a video game isn't that likely to work for a TTRPG.


I can certainly understand the concept of "gritty realism" and adding some house rules to make the game feel a bit more like the older versions of the game but to get that, all you need to do is remove the 100% restoration of hit points and hit die on a long rest and force the party into having a dedicated healer that needs to expend spell slots to heal everyone up. Days off then happen naturally as the party takes days off to recover by having the healer cast spells to restore everyone day after day until everyone is healed (though the healing spells in 5e are far more efficient than previous versions, eg Aura of Vitality, so some tweaking would be required there).

Anyway, there are lots of ways to accomplish a slower/more punishing pace to the game but the added complexity of an exhaustion system that penalizes combat and any sort of physical activity seems to me a bit much.

[Oramac]

CON saving rolls are frequent—every 3 rounds in battle and at the end of battle, and periodically/variably during travel.

The CON saving rolls link up to an exhaustion system, with penalties for various levels of exhaustion.

Resilient: CON definitely appeals, but there are another couple of options that I find interesting.

I didn't read the whole thread, but this jumped out at me immediately. If con saves are as frequent as this suggests, being proficient in them could very literally save your bacon. Especially after 6th level when you can add your Cha to all your saving throws.