PlaneScape Discussion (New Product coming Q4 2023)

[Pixel_Kitsune]

So, for anyone who didn't see we have a quad of new products announced. The one that makes me happiest is PlaneScape making a return. It and Darksun were my favorite 2nd Ed settings and I continue to lean back to them as I run campaigns.

What do we think will stay the same, what do we think will change? Will they acknowledge the Faction War and Die, Vecna, Die? Or will it reset to Status Quo the way 4e Darksun did?

My biggest curiosity is going to be how a more indepth look at Aborea and the Beastlands will be, since the Feywild is almost entirely lifted from those two places with the writers going "Maybe the entire Fey world should NOT be pure good...."

[Xervous]

The happiest recent thing was the statement they wouldn’t be giving Dark Sun the treatment. My expectations based on past performance forecast little more than an adventure book(let) with mangled/absent lore. The interesting stuff they could do with the setting requires establishing the setting, elaborating on details and putting forth HEAPS of lore (relative to prior releases).

Best we’d probably get is a flavorful adventure with choice colloquialisms and good flavor sidebars. I don’t expect the release to stand on its own for Planescape.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Just to put in contrast where your opinion comes from.

Assuming you did not like the Spelljammer books?

Were you good with the Ravenloft book?

Just trying to get a good gauge for further discussion. :)

[Dr.Samurai]

This doesn't really touch on your questions, so sorry :smallredface:, but the thing I find most interesting about Planescape is the idea of taking the alignments and traits of the planes, and letting people with easy access to them really immerse themselves in these qualities, and having those experiences bear fruit as philosophical outlooks and perspectives.

So I'd like to see the various Factions get the Personality/Ideals/Bonds/Flaw treatment, so players have an aid for roleplaying.

And I'm always looking for new subclasses, feats, and critters and items so hopefully those are there as well :smallcool:

[Xervous]

Just to put in contrast where your opinion comes from.

Assuming you did not like the Spelljammer books?

Were you good with the Ravenloft book?

Just trying to get a good gauge for further discussion. :)

The spelljammer books didn’t offer enough to actually run the setting, be it the lore hole or the absence of ship rules in a setting all about ships. There just wasn’t enough there to view it as anything more than a vaguely SJ themed amusement park ride. I’m mostly indifferent on SJ as a setting, but if you asked me to run SJ with just that book I know I’d unintentionally pull something like Disney’s Hercules having Zeus and Hera happily married.

Ravenloft is not my cup of tea, but the impressions I got from glances were that it had more foundation for actually running the setting. I’ve heard things about lore butchering but that’s just how editions go.

Radiant Citadel is another detail in the mix, sharing the same general hub concept as Sigil. Its presentation was more concerned with shuttling players off to the adventures in vaguely detailed locales. Dragonlance was another old setting being dredged up with the focus being on delivering an adventure. Strixhaven - adventure.

Planescape play typically involves plenty of plane hopping. It’s the “planes are accessible to low level parties” setting. This makes it perfect for an adventure collection that sells itself on visiting all sorts of planes that players don’t usually see because of the general trend for groups not making it to high levels. The “philosophers with clubs” aspect of Planescape goes way too close to topics WotC deems too risky to include, so I expect lore to be de-emphasized in favor of presenting a safe adventure centric product.

[Kane0]

What Xervous said

[Pixel_Kitsune]

This doesn't really touch on your questions, so sorry :smallredface:, but the thing I find most interesting about Planescape is the idea of taking the alignments and traits of the planes, and letting people with easy access to them really immerse themselves in these qualities, and having those experiences bear fruit as philosophical outlooks and perspectives.

So I'd like to see the various Factions get the Personality/Ideals/Bonds/Flaw treatment, so players have an aid for roleplaying.

And I'm always looking for new subclasses, feats, and critters and items so hopefully those are there as well :smallcool:

Actually, those all sound amazing. I'll be very curious to see how they handle the fact that you run smack into Ethical, Moral and general Philosophical outlooks that are physically present and manifested.

One MAJOR curiosity I have is how the Upper Planes Exemplars will be handled. We have the LE and CE Devils and Demons, a little bit less but still present NE Yugoloths. We have the LN Modrons and the CN Slaad. But in 5e, hitting the upper planes generically kept the Angels, which were always straight servants of gods, not exemplars. There's been no sign of the LG, NG or CG Exemplars. I'll be curious if that gets addressed and if so I'm VERY curious on the CG. LG and NG are easy, Archons and Guardinals are cool and easy to bring in without issue. But the CG? Called Eladrin, they're a Faerie Court run by a CG version of Asmodeus essentially. I'll be real curious if they invent new, change the name, or just have two things called Eladrin and don't fuss.


...The “philosophers with clubs” aspect of Planescape goes way too close to topics WotC deems too risky to include, so I expect lore to be de-emphasized in favor of presenting a safe adventure centric product.

I have thoughts and agreements and disagreements with the rest, but trying to stay focused on Planescape and I'm pretty sure we're just on a "We disagree" place, not usually a great discussion. :)

But for this part. I don't think so. At least not with the original Factions, because the Factions don't really hit on Risky things automatically. Oh, it's absolutely there, but nothing even in the Box Set jumps that far into any of them. If we look at the original Factions (because I REALLY hope they go there, specially with the announcement for a Vecna adventure) you don't run into too much real world issues unless you deliberately push there.

[Xervous]

I have thoughts and agreements and disagreements with the rest, but trying to stay focused on Planescape and I'm pretty sure we're just on a "We disagree" place, not usually a great discussion. :)

But for this part. I don't think so. At least not with the original Factions, because the Factions don't really hit on Risky things automatically. Oh, it's absolutely there, but nothing even in the Box Set jumps that far into any of them. If we look at the original Factions (because I REALLY hope they go there, specially with the announcement for a Vecna adventure) you don't run into too much real world issues unless you deliberately push there.

I agree that Planescape does not really venture into things that are broadly objectionable. I’m not the one publishing the new book however. I suspect WotC is going to err on the side of caution after getting stung by SJ and making a big fuss over certain topics in the OGL kerfuffle.

I would love to see lore get explored and expanded, so another Vecna event could work if they’re daring enough. The question is whether and how much they’d build after such an upheaval.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I would love to see lore get explored and expanded, so another Vecna event could work if they’re daring enough. The question is whether and how much they’d build after such an upheaval.

Venturing off the main but they've announced there's been a metaplot throughout most of the Adventures. Going all the way back to Phandelver.

[Brookshw]

What do we think will stay the same, what do we think will change? Will they acknowledge the Faction War and Die, Vecna, Die? Or will it reset to Status Quo the way 4e Darksun did?


I'm assuming post Faction War personally. Interesting question about pulling a DVD, would explain a transition to 1DD like it did for the transition to 3e, Vecna's around the corner and we know they raid older source content frequently (to mixed results). I'm open to the idea they'd do something like that.



So I'd like to see the various Factions get the Personality/Ideals/Bonds/Flaw treatment, so players have an aid for roleplaying.


My guess is they'll do the Faction's through backgrounds, possibly with supporting feats, but P/I/B/F could be another avenue.

[Unoriginal]

I am expecting that the Planescape book will be either an adventure module or an adventure compilation. Maybe in the Ghost of Saltmarsh style, with several past editions' scenarios actualised but still with something tying them together.

Based on the artwork we got to see for a tiny instant (which s a deliberate homage to the classic, gorgeous Planescape art style), I feel like they gave the making of this book to people who love and care for the subject, so at least that is a good sign.

[verbatim]

Venturing off the main but they've announced there's been a metaplot throughout most of the Adventures. Going all the way back to Phandelver.

Most adventurers have a mysterious obelisk and the one in Out of the Abyss can be used to teleport. Having them be a plane traversal mechanism could be an interesting tie in.

[Millstone85]

My biggest curiosity is going to be how a more indepth look at Aborea and the Beastlands will be, since the Feywild is almost entirely lifted from those two places with the writers going "Maybe the entire Fey world should NOT be pure good...."Indeed and this was even acknowledged in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes.
First-time visitors might be excused for not being sure which of the two planes they're on for a time after arriving. Unlike Arvandor, however, which is a plane of good, the Feywild leans toward neither good nor evil; both are equally prevalent and powerful there.I would say there is or should be a similar relationship between Hades and the Shadowfell. Let the latter have some nice locales, please.

Originally, the Elemental Chaos was 4e's reinterpretation of Limbo, complete with slaadi and githzerai as direct neighbors to elemental creatures. The 5e Elemental Chaos not only had to give the slaadi and githzerai back to Limbo, but is also described as inhospitable to regular elementals. I would have the new Planescape walk back a little on that, perhaps exploring the idea of pure chaos not being constrained by the Outer/Inner planar dichotomy.

In addition and in contrast, 4e eventually gave Primus an origin story as a being of the Elemental Chaos who became fascinated with its opposite, a lesser-known plane of pure order he called the Accordant Expanse, and sought to create the Elemental Planes as a display of "raw elemental power molded by symmetry and order" (Dragon#414 p19). His project was ultimately thwarted, leaving the 4e cosmology without Elemental Planes, but wouldn't it be cool if 5e Primus was given a victorious version of this story?

I think it would all go well with Planescape's concept of a mutable reality. The planes were not always as Sigil's inhabitants now know them.

[Kane0]

I think it would all go well with Planescape's concept of a mutable reality. The planes were not always as Sigil's inhabitants now know them.

I am intrigued, but also not confident that WotC would go down a lore rabbit-hole like that.

[Unoriginal]

I mean, I remember several people who worked on 5e stating that the Great Wheel model was not quite factual and more just a convenient model for making sense of the way many, including most of Sigil's inhabitants, perceived the planes.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I mean, I remember several people who worked on 5e stating that the Great Wheel model was not quite factual and more just a convenient model for making sense of the way many, including most of Sigil's inhabitants, perceived the planes.

I'd be asking if we might finally get the third transitive plane that connects the Outer Directly to the Inner...

But, adding the Feywild and the Shadowfell borks the over all numbers. Unless we assume the Feywild and Shadowfell are part of the Prime.

[Millstone85]

I mean, I remember several people who worked on 5e stating that the Great Wheel model was not quite factual and more just a convenient model for making sense of the way many, including most of Sigil's inhabitants, perceived the planes.
I'd be asking if we might finally get the third transitive plane that connects the Outer Directly to the Inner...

But, adding the Feywild and the Shadowfell borks the over all numbers. Unless we assume the Feywild and Shadowfell are part of the Prime.Like the people of Sigil, I have my own current interpretation/headcanon for the 5e cosmology. And while I hope you get your wish for an outer-inner transitive plane, I would certainly struggle to make it fit. :smallbiggrin:

It goes like this:

The Prime Material is at the junction between four encompassing planes: the Positive (radiant), the Negative (necrotic), the Astral (psychic) and the Ethereal (force).
The Prime Material's shores with each of the four planes are, respectively, the Feywild, the Shadowfell, Wildspace and the Border Ethereal.
The Outer Planes are great clusters of astral dominions organized between the cardinal points of Law, Good, Chaos and Evil.
The Inner Planes are great clusters of ethereal provinces organized between the cardinal points of Fire, Air, Water and Earth.
The Positive and the Negative could contain their own planar wheels, great clusters of domains of delight and dread organized along unknown axes.
Casting etherealness on the Prime Material, the Feywild, the Shadowfell or in Wildspace shifts you more or less to the same Border Ethereal, while the Inner Planes have their own distinct ethereal borders for the spell to use. It has no effect when cast on any other plane.

[Unoriginal]

Isn't the Outer-Inner transitive plane the Material Plane?

It's where elementary matter and spiritual ideals connect.

[Millstone85]

Isn't the Outer-Inner transitive plane the Material Plane?

It's where elementary matter and spiritual ideals connect.It is on the travel path, which goes Outer --> Astral --> Material --> Ethereal --> Inner.

Now wouldn't that be a fun journey?

You are on an outer plane.
You find an astral color pool.
You find another astral color pool, specifically a silver one (DMG p47).
You cast etherealness.
You find an ethereal curtain before the spell's duration runs out.
You find another ethereal curtain, either orange, pale blue, green or reddish-brown (DMG p49).
Finally, you hope the expired spell will shunt you from the new ethereal border into the inner plane itself.

Actually, you could find a spiraling white astral color pool and skip the Material, though I am still unsure how to do the last Border-to-Inner step.

Or be super boring and just cast plane shift. :smallamused:

[Psyren]

Isn't the Outer-Inner transitive plane the Material Plane?

It's where elementary matter and spiritual ideals connect.

This, and also the Astral and Ethereal are interfaces.


I would say there is or should be a similar relationship between Hades and the Shadowfell. Let the latter have some nice locales, please.


I don't know about "nice" but there are definitely areas of the Shadowfell that should be relatively benign. Spooky-looking perhaps, but not actively harmful.



Originally, the Elemental Chaos was 4e's reinterpretation of Limbo, complete with slaadi and githzerai as direct neighbors to elemental creatures. The 5e Elemental Chaos not only had to give the slaadi and githzerai back to Limbo, but is also described as inhospitable to regular elementals. I would have the new Planescape walk back a little on that, perhaps exploring the idea of pure chaos not being constrained by the Outer/Inner planar dichotomy.

In addition and in contrast, 4e eventually gave Primus an origin story as a being of the Elemental Chaos who became fascinated with its opposite, a lesser-known plane of pure order he called the Accordant Expanse, and sought to create the Elemental Planes as a display of "raw elemental power molded by symmetry and order" (Dragon#414 p19). His project was ultimately thwarted, leaving the 4e cosmology without Elemental Planes, but wouldn't it be cool if 5e Primus was given a victorious version of this story?

I think it would all go well with Planescape's concept of a mutable reality. The planes were not always as Sigil's inhabitants now know them.

I definitely wouldn't look to 4e for this, they tried to hammer alignment down from a grid to a line, hence taking "Elemental Chaos" a smidge too literally when elements should really be neutral. The elemental planes already oppose each other, they don't need another "more orderly" opposite.

I would say that whatever Planescape ends up landing on, would need to comport with the Player's Handbook visual representation of the Great Wheel:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/a2/Planes-5e.jpg

[Brookshw]

Pixel's referring to a piece of older lore where there was a theoretical 3rd transitive plane (the Ordial Plane) that hadn't been discovered, it's existence was presumed based on the Rule of Threes is PS, and that while we had the Ethereal for the Prime and inners, and Astral for Prime and Outers, there wasn't something for Inners and Outer by way of direct connection.

Kind of a fun DM hook/tool where you can drop a whole plane of whatever should you want.

[Envyus]

I'd be asking if we might finally get the third transitive plane that connects the Outer Directly to the Inner...

But, adding the Feywild and the Shadowfell borks the over all numbers. Unless we assume the Feywild and Shadowfell are part of the Prime.

Shadowfell and Feywild are reflections of the prime. Influenced by the Negative Plane and Positive Plane.

Anyway we got some news about the book. It will be a slip case like Spelljammer, but the lengths are different.
96 page Gazetter, 96 page Adventure, 64 page Bestiary.

[Unoriginal]

Shadowfell and Feywild are reflections of the prime. Influenced by the Negative Plane and Positive Plane.

Anyway we got some news about the book. It will be a slip case like Spelljammer, but the lengths are different.
96 page Gazetter, 96 page Adventure, 64 page Bestiary.

Thanks for sharing the info!

Mmmh, not sure if it's good news or bad news.

Well at least it confirms that there will be space for the setting and for the adventure.

I'm curious about the Bestiary's content, though. That would give us real insight on what's covered.

[Millstone85]

The elemental planes already oppose each other, they don't need another "more orderly" opposite.I think you misunderstood. In this scenario the Elemental Planes were the more orderly alternative to the Elemental Chaos, precisely because of the way the Elemental Planes are sorted and balanced.

And I thought it was a neat idea for the modrons to have had a hand in this. Oh, a hodgepodge of elements? That just won't do. Fire goes in this corner, Water on the other side, then Air and Earth perpendicular to that. Much better!


Anyway we got some news about the book. It will be a slip case like Spelljammer, but the lengths are different.
96 page Gazetter, 96 page Adventure, 64 page Bestiary.96/96/64 is better than 64/64/64 but I am still not a fan of this format. I would rather have the adventure be the short one, or even entirely absent.

Edit: This will likely be the DM screen. (https://twitter.com/TonyDiTerlizzi/status/1640752967719481346)

[Unoriginal]

Edit: This will likely be the DM screen. (https://twitter.com/TonyDiTerlizzi/status/1640752967719481346)

Amazing.

DiTerlizzi really has the perfect artstyle for the setting.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Isn't the Outer-Inner transitive plane the Material Plane?

It's where elementary matter and spiritual ideals connect.

Material Plane isn't transitive.

The old cosmology was that the Inner Planes go through the Ethereal to Prime Material which then goes through the Astral to the Outer planes. (Which was already mentioned).

Planescape had three rules in mind when it was made.

1: Center of the multiverse: As the planes are truly infinite, the center of all things is really subjective. I mean, from where your standing, THAT'S the center of the multiverse. It may sound odd, but in a game where belief can shape things, that one POV can have real power, depending on who, where, and when you are.

2: The unity of rings: Everything gets circular after a while, if you look hard enough. Sigil's a ring, the great road is a ring, the world serpent is...you get the idea. Logic gets circular out on the planes, too. Especially the outer ones...at least that's what the inners will tell you, but what do they know?

3: Rule of threes: Everything happens in threes. Once is serendipity, twice is coincidence, three times is typical. Even your basic rules to remember come in a stack of three. The multiverse is nothing if not consistent.

So, the rumor/fan theory fun was that since you're supposed to have things in threes AND things are supposed to be circular... The Overall cosmological map doesn't work because it's a line. But if it's secretly a ring then there's another transitive plane (Because we have Three Stable planes and only 2 Transitive) that connects the Outerplanes to the Inner. It was suspected that Ao, Io and an unknown Third Over-Deity dwelt there as well.

All fan theory and unconfirmed, but it was a continuous push for a while back in the day.

[Kane0]

My current planar model is the prime; which connects to the feywild (which doubles as the ethereal); which connects to the elemental ring; which connects to the shadowfell (which doubles as the astral); which connects to the outer ring (which i squished down to six planes). Then you have the far realm beyond that but it's walled off by the powers so it doesnt flood in and wreck everything.

[Millstone85]

Amazing.

DiTerlizzi really has the perfect artstyle for the setting.I am a bit confused by the characters' sizes, though. Her Serenity can probably shrink or enlarge herself as she pleases, so nevermind her not being a giant in this picture. But despite their resemblance to Gru's minions, the monodrones and quadrones are actually supposed to be Medium.

[Unoriginal]

I am a bit confused by the characters' sizes, though. Her Serenity can probably shrink or enlarge herself as she pleases, so nevermind her not being a giant in this picture. But despite their resemblance to Gru's minions, the monodrones and quadrones are actually supposed to be Medium.

Could be they're Medium even if they're sort of short because they're wide?

A Monodrone probably out-circumference a Dwarf, at least

[Millstone85]

Could be they're Medium even if they're sort of short because they're wide?

A Monodrone probably out-circumference a Dwarf, at leastOh, yeah, that makes sense.

[Psyren]

96/96/64 is better than 64/64/64 but I am still not a fan of this format. I would rather have the adventure be the short one, or even entirely absent.

I have to agree with this. "Gazetteer" doesn't sound like it will be meaty enough to be a true campaign setting book :smallfrown:

[Millstone85]

I have to agree with this. "Gazetteer" doesn't sound like it will be meaty enough to be a true campaign setting book :smallfrown:And to think I was let down when a single coast of Faerûn got only 154 pages as a campaign setting, yet now I worry they will try to cram the Outer Planes into 96 pages. :smallannoyed:

Or it will just be about Sigil and maaaybe the Outlands' gate-towns.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Honestly, looking at my 2nd Ed AD&D box set, the main book is only about Outlands and Sigil and is less than 100 pages. There's a separate book with the Faction Kits and Races, but realistically we're looking at something close to the same. The planes being expanded in 2nd was all supplements and extra box sets.

[Millstone85]

Honestly, looking at my 2nd Ed AD&D box set, the main book is only about Outlands and Sigil and is less than 100 pages. There's a separate book with the Faction Kits and Races, but realistically we're looking at something close to the same. The planes being expanded in 2nd was all supplements and extra box sets.Truly? Then perhaps I should be more optimistic.

[Psyren]

Honestly, looking at my 2nd Ed AD&D box set, the main book is only about Outlands and Sigil and is less than 100 pages. There's a separate book with the Faction Kits and Races, but realistically we're looking at something close to the same. The planes being expanded in 2nd was all supplements and extra box sets.

Thanks for that context, I do feel a bit better.

I'd feel even better still if they went back to publishing worldbuilding articles and such. Most of the articles they do publish on DDB are player-oriented these days.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Thought I'd offer the full info on the 2nd Ed Box Set.

The full 2e Box Set Contains the following:

A Player's Guide to the Planes: A 32 page book of PC information that includes 5 pages on general feel and scope of the planes. Then New Races and the Factions as Class Kits. Honestly, I expect the same from the new book. While Class Kits in feel are much like Subclasses in 5e, the amount of rules and such really fit them more like Backgrounds with Roleplaying reqs. They change a few things but not tons. Example: The Transcendent Order is a faction based on around trusting instinct and the flow of the universe. They get a +1 on Initiative Rolls (Equivalent of having Prof in 5e I'd say) but in exchange are not allowed to change their minds. Once the player says they're doing something there's no "Wait, never mind." It was a bit weird but an interesting way to push playing a faction.

A DM's Guide to the Planes: A 32 page book on DM information that includes how magic is affected (Spells work differently in 2e depending on what Plane you're on and, if in Outlands, how close to the Spire you are), Travel methods and a few pages on each plane. Honestly, this is more information than the 5e DMG gives on the planes, but not too much more IMO. And it's hit and miss. For example, the section on Baator/Nine Hells is a full page (VS I think two or three Paragraphs in the DMG) But it's really just a single paragraph giving very vague generalities on each layer. I feel like with the information spread out that tells us how most realms work we're covered here.

Sigil and Beyond: A 96 page Full out look at Sigil and the Outlands that includes the Gate Towns and Sigil and some info on using Portals and travel.

Monstrous Supplement: A 32 page book of Planar Monsters and Critters to use.

It also contained a Map of the Planes and a DM screen.

So it had a total of 192 Pages of Data. The new one will have 256 Pages. Now if the data is good for you, well written, that'll have to be judged when it comes out. But I think we're comparable here. I think we'll have less info on the Setting because we have more pages on Monsters, but we'll have to see. :)

[Millstone85]

Thought I'd offer the full info on the 2nd Ed Box Set.
Sigil and Beyond: A 96 page Full out look at Sigil and the Outlands that includes the Gate Towns and Sigil and some info on using Portals and travel.So there was and will be the same number of pages for the main book, interesting. And I would be happy enough with the same focus on the Outlands, including Sigil and the gate-towns.

[Brookshw]

I'd like to nominate Xanxost as our narrator, or possibly Morvun and Phineas.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

So there was and will be the same number of pages for the main book, interesting. And I would be happy enough with the same focus on the Outlands, including Sigil and the gate-towns.

In the interest of honesty I do have to point out 5e will have less info. They're both 96 pages but 2e had a separate 32 page book with PC options, where as in 5e it'll be in that book.

[Kane0]

I'd like to nominate Xanxost as our narrator

Probably a better pick than Morte.

[Millstone85]

I'd like to nominate Xanxost as our narrator, or possibly Morvun and Phineas.After looking those up, I would vote for Morvun and Phineas.

Not only are they bleakers, my favourite faction, but they are "bleakniks", which I find hilarious.

[Rukelnikov]

So there's two things that give me worry about the 5e iteration of PS.

First is quantity of material, tbh the page count from the original boxed set is interesting to put things into comparison, and makes the coming one look much better, I went back and checked 3e's Manual of the Planes, and the last page is numbered 223, so no that much more, but decided to look a bit more specifically:

Basics (what are the planes, connecting to your campaign) - 20
PC stuff (Races, Prestiges, spells) - 18
Material plane - 4
Transitive planes - 20
Inner planes - 20
Outer Planes - 68
Demiplanes - 6
Monsters - 42
Variant planes and cosmologies - 21

If we consider the core of the 3e MoP to be the Transitives, Inners and Outers, that's only 108 pages, not that far from 96, but when you take into account, that some of the other stuff will likely need to appear in the 5e PS (like the basics), and that they will likely dedicate some pages to PC stuff, I think a conservative guess would be to expect about half as much wordcount for each transitive, inner and outer.

If that wordcount is of good quality and design, then I guess it's fine, I'd have liked a bit more, but its ok.

My second worry though, is that since I started playing in 2e every edition has felt safer for adventuring than the previous one, 3e was safer than 2e (more nat regen, more accessible resurrections), late 3.5 was much safer than 3e with the introduction of spells like Revivify, Delay Death and Alter Fortune. 3P at release was maybe about as safe as late 3.5, it lacked some key spells, but everyone could now go further into the negative hit points before dying. 5e did away with negative hit points alltogether, with the only special clause being "if excess damage would oneshot you from full hp, then you die".

So my worry is that 5e will strip PS from its dangers, and what used to be a more dangerous location to exist, will now be turned into a safe amusement park.


Probably a better pick than Morte.

How dare you, berk! He was my guide to Planescape and he did exceedengly well

[Beelzebub1111]

One thing I liked about the planescape factions was that even the worst among them had understandable goals and even had good aspects to their philosophy and they showed that even the most altruistic of the groups had negative outcomes and bad actors in their ranks that truly believed in the philosophy.

Like, after hearing about the Fated (takers) you wouldn't think it, but their faction leader is chaotic good. And among the upper ranks they are as much about improving sigil as they are about quid pro quo.

I hope none of that nuance is lost and they aren't reduced to their surface level and stated goals.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

One thing I liked about the planescape factions was that even the worst among them had understandable goals and even had good aspects to their philosophy and they showed that even the most altruistic of the groups had negative outcomes and bad actors in their ranks that truly believed in the philosophy.

Like, after hearing about the Fated (takers) you wouldn't think it, but their faction leader is chaotic good. And among the upper ranks they are as much about improving sigil as they are about quid pro quo.

I hope none of that nuance is lost and they aren't reduced to their surface level and stated goals.

Eh, that was in word only, not how they wrote him. Factol Rowan Darkwood was power hungry to the point of stupidity culminating in him plunging the entire city into war because he couldn't handle the Lady being above him and ultimately lead to tons of upheaval and damage.

Honestly, I don't think it was an accident that he was "Chaotic Good" I think he was a parody of an Ayn Rand character.

[Millstone85]

I went back and checked 3e's Manual of the Planes, and the last page is numbered 223, so no that much more, but decided to look a bit more specifically:

Basics (what are the planes, connecting to your campaign) - 20
PC stuff (Races, Prestiges, spells) - 18
Material plane - 4
Transitive planes - 20
Inner planes - 20
Outer Planes - 68
Demiplanes - 6
Monsters - 42
Variant planes and cosmologies - 21Assuming they go for a full manual of the planes, here is the last one they made. The last page is numbered 159, which is about the same as the announced 160 pages of gazetteer plus bestiary.

Exploring the Planes (overview, traits, travel methods, Sigil) - 28
The Feywild (mostly the same as now) - 16
The Shadowfell (ditto, including DoD) - 14
The Elemental Chaos (≈ Inner Planes) - 22
The Astral Sea (≈ Astral/Outer Planes) - 28
Monsters of the Planes - 26
Planar Characters (paragon paths, rituals, magic items) - 22

[Brookshw]

Assuming they go for a full manual of the planes, here is the last one they made. The last page is numbered 159, which is about the same as the announced 160 pages of gazetteer plus bestiary.

Exploring the Planes (overview, traits, travel methods, Sigil) - 28
The Feywild (mostly the same as now) - 16
The Shadowfell (ditto, including DoD) - 14
The Elemental Chaos (≈ Inner Planes) - 22
The Astral Sea (≈ Astral/Outer Planes) - 28
Monsters of the Planes - 26
Planar Characters (paragon paths, rituals, magic items) - 22

The Planes of X series is mostly fluff and should be pretty accessible to anyone look to supplement the setting, they clocked in at around 700-ish pages total I want to say (too lazy to check), then there's the Guide to the Ethereal and Outlands books.

One thing I'm wondering about, I feel like they borked the cosmology with SJ and the the change to the Astral becoming Wild Space, so will they update the planar model somehow? I guess it's not necessary to do so, but I'm also dubious how much they'll retain.

[Millstone85]

One thing I'm wondering about, I feel like they borked the cosmology with SJ and the the change to the Astral becoming Wild Space, so will they update the planar model somehow? I guess it's not necessary to do so, but I'm also dubious how much they'll retain.To be precise, they reinterpreted Wildspace as a form of Border Astral.


In Wildspace, the Material Plane and the Astral Plane overlap. Creatures and objects in Wildspace age normally and are effectively on both of those planes at once.Which still leaves me with questions like "Can an astral dreadnought go there?", "Can an astral projection go there?" or "Can you become ethereal there?". My guesses are no, no and yes, with the overlap existing only to explain why leaving a planetary system eventually sees you transition into the regular Astral Plane (aka the Astral Sea, aka the Silver Void) as it was described in the DMG.

Anyhow, 5e has now clearly ditched the Phlogiston, when before we were just unsure of its fate. 5e had already done away with the Quasi-Elemental Planes, though there is still room to write those back in somehow. What other changes do you foresee?

[Brookshw]

To be precise, they reinterpreted Wildspace as a form of Border Astral.

Which still leaves me with questions like "Can an astral dreadnought go there?", "Can an astral projection go there?" or "Can you become ethereal there?". My guesses are no, no and yes, with the overlap existing only to explain why leaving a planetary system eventually sees you transition into the regular Astral Plane (aka the Astral Sea, aka the Silver Void) as it was described in the DMG.

Anyhow, 5e has now clearly ditched the Phlogiston, when before we were just unsure of its fate. 5e had already done away with the Quasi-Elemental Planes, though there is still room to write those back in somehow. What other changes do you foresee?

Fair. I think what strikes me as the change is there's no longer one solidified material plane, and it's now pockets scattered. At least that was my take, but I returned that book and may be misremembering.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

So my worry is that 5e will strip PS from its dangers, and what used to be a more dangerous location to exist, will now be turned into a safe amusement park.

This I REALLY have to say is a matter of the DM, as much as I don't fully think Rule 0 protects everything, it does here. How lethal a campaign is is up to the table. I rarely had characters die in 2e, despite how "dangerous" it was on paper. I've had several meaningful deaths in 5e, because despite "Oh, Revivify is just available at level 5" the Diamond cost easily limits it's usage.

[Envyus]

Something I should bring up is that 2e books like the Planescape ones have roughly 25% less words per page than 5e books.

[Rukelnikov]

This I REALLY have to say is a matter of the DM, as much as I don't fully think Rule 0 protects everything, it does here. How lethal a campaign is is up to the table. I rarely had characters die in 2e, despite how "dangerous" it was on paper. I've had several meaningful deaths in 5e, because despite "Oh, Revivify is just available at level 5" the Diamond cost easily limits it's usage.

Sure, and my group has tried like 10 different ways of making 5e less safe, because we want the game to be more dangerous, that doesn't mean that the base game isn't safer by design.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Sure, and my group has tried like 10 different ways of making 5e less safe, because we want the game to be more dangerous, that doesn't mean that the base game isn't safer by design.

Again, that's on the DM, not the game. Sorry, had 2nd Ed games where I had characters who were never in danger thanks to the build, set up and playing remotely intelligent. Had characters run from level 1 to 15 without ever once being in significant danger of actually dying, including a level 5 character in a DarkSun game going into the mouth of a Mekilot...

Meanwhile The game I ran last night, group of 6 level 7 Characters vs a Beholder. Two went down, one to Petrification and one to Disintegration. They had a relatively easy time finding a Greater Restoration for the Petrified Barbarian but the other is dead and it's going to either be a quest to find someone to rez them or a new PC for that player. And it wasn't the beam targeting a Squishy on purpose to take advantage of a bad save, it was a Ranger/Monk botching a Dex Save they should have made.

During that fight there was actually a Death Ray and another Disintegration that both got narrowly averted because one of the characters is a Chronurgy Mage and gave them Save rerolls.

The Encounter had 2 out and out deaths, only one of which the party could handle and 2 more deaths that only got avoided because of a specific ability.

The DM sets how difficult and dangerous things are, regardless of the game system.

But anecdotes are anecdotes. Could you share specifically what you think makes it too soft in 5e? You mentioned the drop to 0 and death saves vs the -HP, but really. The fact that two attacks on a downed character is guaranteed death, or that even just left alone there is a 50% chance you're dead, that's potentially harsh. And the only "Easier" rez ability is Revivify which has a time constraint and an expensive material component.

[Rukelnikov]

Again, that's on the DM, not the game. Sorry, had 2nd Ed games where I had characters who were never in danger thanks to the build, set up and playing remotely intelligent. Had characters run from level 1 to 15 without ever once being in significant danger of actually dying, including a level 5 character in a DarkSun game going into the mouth of a Mekilot...

Meanwhile The game I ran last night, group of 6 level 7 Characters vs a Beholder. Two went down, one to Petrification and one to Disintegration. They had a relatively easy time finding a Greater Restoration for the Petrified Barbarian but the other is dead and it's going to either be a quest to find someone to rez them or a new PC for that player. And it wasn't the beam targeting a Squishy on purpose to take advantage of a bad save, it was a Ranger/Monk botching a Dex Save they should have made.

During that fight there was actually a Death Ray and another Disintegration that both got narrowly averted because one of the characters is a Chronurgy Mage and gave them Save rerolls.

The Encounter had 2 out and out deaths, only one of which the party could handle and 2 more deaths that only got avoided because of a specific ability.

The DM sets how difficult and dangerous things are, regardless of the game system.

But anecdotes are anecdotes. Could you share specifically what you think makes it too soft in 5e? You mentioned the drop to 0 and death saves vs the -HP, but really. The fact that two attacks on a downed character is guaranteed death, or that even just left alone there is a 50% chance you're dead, that's potentially harsh. And the only "Easier" rez ability is Revivify which has a time constraint and an expensive material component.

Well, in 2e I had multiple characters die at lvl 1 and 2, in 3e I had a couple, in 5e I had none.

Of course, the DM can always make things harder, impossibly hard if they want or just "rocks fall, everyone dies", but what used to be dangerous, like falling 30 feet, now is just a picnic away from not even having happened.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Well, in 2e I had multiple characters die at lvl 1 and 2, in 3e I had a couple, in 5e I had none.

Of course, the DM can always make things harder, impossibly hard if they want or just "rocks fall, everyone dies", but what used to be dangerous, like falling 30 feet, now is just a picnic away from not even having happened.

I think I see the disconnect between us. You're talking cruel twist of fate meaningless deaths.

Yeah, I've never played with DMs that went that direction. The idea that you slip and fall 30' and you might have to roll a new character is uninteresting to me, always has been. Death in all my games has been because you took on something powerful and failed. Or you attempted something of great risk and came up short. There was always an almost unspoken protection from levels 1-3 where unless you act really dumb or the party just abandons you, you'll make it through.

[Kane0]

There was always an almost unspoken protection from levels 1-3 where unless you act really dumb or the party just abandons you, you'll make it through.
Oh man you havent lived until you've taken an orc crit before level 3.

[Rukelnikov]

I think I see the disconnect between us. You're talking cruel twist of fate meaningless deaths.

Its not always the cause of death, but yeah, unlucky roll climbing fell from high up, maybe didn't die, but the damage piled up. The removal of natural enviroments (not creatures, enviroments) as a threat is one of the reasons exploration is so lame in 5e, it has a single possible outcome.


Yeah, I've never played with DMs that went that direction. The idea that you slip and fall 30' and you might have to roll a new character is uninteresting to me, always has been. Death in all my games has been because you took on something powerful and failed. Or you attempted something of great risk and came up short. There was always an almost unspoken protection from levels 1-3 where unless you act really dumb or the party just abandons you, you'll make it through.

Well, at some point during 3e this started to somewhat develop in my group, but we decided to instead of having 2 levels with kid gloves on to just start at level 3.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having one, three or ten seesions of grace periods where characters can't die, one of my favorite systems Tenra Bansho Zero, you pretty much can't die unless you as the player choose to allow for the possibility of your death. But I don't think this safety should be baked in the DnD system because it nullifies one of the core elements of medieval fantasy, the journey, which I think is much more interesting when it isn't a foregone conclusion that you'll arrive at the destination, at that point only what happens at the destination is uncertain and thus interesting.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

One reason things feel safe, I think, is WOTC's philosophy of encounter design and the adventuring day. The rules-as-published in most of the early modules (I haven't bought one since Dragon Heist so I don't know what the new stuff is like) involve the players taking journeys of weeks and months with two or three encounters per day. Those encounters are rolled on tables, and most of them are incredibly easy. My sense is that some DMs just skip 99% of them, going from set-piece to set-piece, essentially guaranteeing that players are operating with full resources at all times. For those that do run the random encounters, uh, yeah, it's hard to threaten a party of level 6 characters with four CR 1/4 enemies that don't have ranged weapons standing in a big open field. A few of those and the game feels tediously easy; a few more and the party feels invincible. Older editions, I think, had a bit more spice on their random encounter tables. It was a bit less "here's the table of CR-appropriate encounters with some wiggle room" and more "here's the stuff you'd find on the way to the City of Brass; hope you don't instantly die!".

Planescape, I hope, will have some more spice to it. It really is a setting that lends itself to non-combat solutions rather than combat ones, so maybe they can loosen the shackles a little bit (and also write some forking rules and stop making me do nine hours of prep for every hour of table time).

[Unoriginal]

Worth noting that the Lost Mines of Phandelver introductory adventure is pretty infamous for it's first encounter's lethality.

Curse of Strahd and Tomb of Annihilation also start pretty lethal, with ToA staying that way for the whole book (though the reason for the lethality changes chapter from chapter). I've read more than one person on this forum mention how Rime of the Frostmaiden can easily results in TPK or near TPKs, and I've seen it happen once in a Livestream.

And Descent into Avernus's first part is flabbergastingly out of tune in term of encounter danger. First fight is explainable because you're supposed to get NPC support, first dungeon is a big wtf as you face elite mooks, fireball-throwing casters and a boss with stats that wouldn't be out of place on a titan, while the PCs are supposed to be around lvl 3. Thankfully the next fights and dungeons are much more well-adjusted.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Tomb is a great example of one that feels scarier if you pare the hex-crawler portion way back and just hit the high points. And just by virtue of how HP changes with level, level 1 lethality is always going to be an order of magnitude higher than level 2+.

Also, as a random idea, I wonder if DMs look at some of the hard stuff and realize, whoa, this is way out of whack, and bring it back in line with expectations, but they aren't also up-tuning the encounters that are, like, six orcs with shovels against four PCs with lightsabers.

[Unoriginal]

Tomb is a great example of one that feels scarier if you pare the hex-crawler portion way back and just hit the high points.

The hex-crawl is supposed to be three rolls on the encounter tables per day without counting the relevant locations, though, if the PCs are on foot. Adding to that the ressource expenditure you may have to do daily just to travel without sickness, thirst or starvation, and going through the jungles can be scarry on its own.

Main issue is there is a big risk the constant danger and ressource spending make the hex-crawling tedious after a while.



Also, as a random idea, I wonder if DMs look at some of the hard stuff and realize, whoa, this is way out of whack, and bring it back in line with expectations, but they aren't also up-tuning the encounters that are, like, six orcs with shovels against four PCs with lightsabers.

Some DMs tune all encounters as they feel is needed, some only down-tune, some only up-tune.

Personally I don't mind some of 'yeah, those guys are way weaker than you" or "yeah, you're way weaker than them" encounters, but last campaign I ran I did up-tune some NPCs as I felt their statblocks lacked some of the oompf they were supposed to have.

[Millstone85]

Fair. I think what strikes me as the change is there's no longer one solidified material plane, and it's now pockets scattered. At least that was my take, but I returned that book and may be misremembering.That's what I thought too, but now I see it might already have been the case.

One of the major traits of the Phlogiston was its prohibition of planar travel. It would also negatively affect anything that relies on other planes of existence, such as a bag of holding, a summoning spell, or the recovery of divine magic.

If we consider the Material to be the plane where the Astral and the Ethereal meet, didn't that make the Phlogiston very much unlike it? If so, the Material existed only as a collection of scattered pockets, each protected from the Phlogiston by a crystal shell.

There is no longer a need for crystal shells, as Wildspace now gradually transitions into the Astral Sea, but the Material otherwise retains the same general shape.

[Brookshw]

That's what I thought too, but now I see it might already have been the case.

One of the major traits of the Phlogiston was its prohibition of planar travel. It would also negatively affect anything that relies on other planes of existence, such as a bag of holding, a summoning spell, or the recovery of divine magic.

If we consider the Material to be the plane where the Astral and the Ethereal meet, didn't that make the Phlogiston very much unlike it? If so, the Material existed only as a collection of scattered pockets, each protected from the Phlogiston by a crystal shell.

There is no longer a need for crystal shells, as Wildspace now gradually transitions into the Astral Sea, but the Material otherwise retains the same general shape.

No? The Phlogiston was still in the material plane, as were all the crystal spheres; now its more like islands in the astral that are each a material plane, rather than it being one solid one. I get where you're coming from though.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

To be clear, re-reading the 5e description, it's still "One" Prime Material plane. You have to think about it metaphorically and outside of a 3 dimensional space.

Sure you "Go far enough" and you cross into the Astral. Well, that makes a certain level of sense. The Inner planes connect through the Astral Plane to the Prime where all the "worlds" are. From there you can transition to the Ethereal and if you "go far enough" you end up in the Outer Planes.The joys about things like this is that by nature of design D&D is a 5 dimensional world, not a 4 dimensional one like the real world is seen to be. You can travel forward and backward along any access with the right tools, Length, Depth, width, time, planar, essentially.

[Brookshw]

To be clear, re-reading the 5e description, it's still "One" Prime Material plane. You have to think about it metaphorically and outside of a 3 dimensional space.

Sure you "Go far enough" and you cross into the Astral. Well, that makes a certain level of sense. The Inner planes connect through the Astral Plane to the Prime where all the "worlds" are. From there you can transition to the Ethereal and if you "go far enough" you end up in the Outer Planes.The joys about things like this is that by nature of design D&D is a 5 dimensional world, not a 4 dimensional one like the real world is seen to be. You can travel forward and backward along any access with the right tools, Length, Depth, width, time, planar, essentially.

My recollection of SJ 5e may be spotty, but isn't it impossible to go from one setting to another without going through the astral?

[Pixel_Kitsune]

My recollection of SJ 5e may be spotty, but isn't it impossible to go from one setting to another without going through the astral?

Which wouldn't make it separate primes automatically. If I want to go to my bedroom I have to walk through the hall. If I want to then go from my bedroom to my spouse's office I can't go straight through the wall, I have to go back into the Hallway and then enter their office. They're still right next each other in the same place in my home.

Metaphysical space gets wonky to imagine because we only perceive 3 dimenions. As an example, how do you deal with the idea of a repeating cycle where a force of evil breaks into reality and tries to unravel it yet keeps failing over and over again never learning or doing better?

Well, from our perspective it's a repeating cycle. But imagine our world, Time included, is the inside of a Tire spinning. Meanwhile the evil force is a nail that hits the outside of the tire, then gets removed and the hole patched. From the perspective of something on the inside stationary watching the tire spin above a new hole keeps appearing as the Nail tries to puncture through over and over again. But from the Nail's perspective it only ever tried once.

[Brookshw]

Which wouldn't make it separate primes automatically. If I want to go to my bedroom I have to walk through the hall. If I want to then go from my bedroom to my spouse's office I can't go straight through the wall, I have to go back into the Hallway and then enter their office. They're still right next each other in the same place in my home.

Metaphysical space gets wonky to imagine because we only perceive 3 dimenions. As an example, how do you deal with the idea of a repeating cycle where a force of evil breaks into reality and tries to unravel it yet keeps failing over and over again never learning or doing better?

Well, from our perspective it's a repeating cycle. But imagine our world, Time included, is the inside of a Tire spinning. Meanwhile the evil force is a nail that hits the outside of the tire, then gets removed and the hole patched. From the perspective of something on the inside stationary watching the tire spin above a new hole keeps appearing as the Nail tries to puncture through over and over again. But from the Nail's perspective it only ever tried once.

There's a lot in your analogy to unpack. Short answer, feels like you're trying to force it, the hallway and wall analogy creates discrete and discontinuous existences for the rooms which was not the case in prior editions as far as locations went, there was always and only one material plane going back to dragon magazine #8 when they were first introduced (#7? One of those). D&D planes come with an extra hiccup because not only are they discrete from one another, but they're are also part of one unified cosmology that's further discrete for other planes (i.e., nightmare dimension, far plane).

[Millstone85]

My current vision would, amusingly enough, make use of an illustration of the Phlogiston.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/9/9a/Ethereal-map-2e.jpg
It did identify the Phlogiston as filling up most of the Material, but what I am looking at is the way they had the Ethereal "bubble" into it to represent how only the crystal spheres had an ethereal border. In 5e, I would imagine the Ethereal similarly "bubbling" into the Astral.

A ship would never come across a big wall separating the Ethereal from the Astral, nor could it move along any tendril protruding from it. The ship could only encounter spheres of ethereal (and by extension inner-planar) influence floating amidst the Astral.

This would be inverted from the perspective of the Deep Ethereal, with spheres of astral (and by extension outer-planar) influence floating around. Entering those would bring you to the same wildspace systems, only with you being in that invisible and intangible state.

Not sure if that could actually make sense with any n-dimensional geometry. I know the story of a sphere passing through a flat plane and being perceived as a growing then shrinking disc, and how we would likewise see a 4-dimensional object as a shapeshifting 3-dimensional object, but here it would be more like two equal planes at an odd angle or something.

[Unoriginal]

My recollection of SJ 5e may be spotty, but isn't it impossible to go from one setting to another without going through the astral?

No, you can use a teleportation circle (if you have the circle's identifying sigils), you can use that Blue Dream spell from the Tasha's (if you have an item from the setting in question), or you can travel to a different plane via Plane Shift then Plane Shift again to be in the Material Plane but on a different world (may not work depending on the world's conditions and protections).

Planewalkers can also do it as one of their explicit abilities. Since Planewalkers are a D&D thing too since a while ago.

[Rukelnikov]

No, you can use a teleportation circle (if you have the circle's identifying sigils), you can use that Blue Dream spell from the Tasha's (if you have an item from the setting in question), or you can travel to a different plane via Plane Shift then Plane Shift again to be in the Material Plane but on a different world (may not work depending on the world's conditions and protections).

Planewalkers can also do it as one of their explicit abilities. Since Planewalkers are a D&D thing too since a while ago.

Tbh I don't mind "planeswalkers being a thing" because most my T4+ Characters are planeswalkers too, so for me planeswalkers is the epic or near epic tier for dnd, and has been so since 3e (I never had a character higher than 9 in 2e). But OTOH, I met the planes through PS:T, and BG2 also featured some planar travel (even if they didn't go to other primes)

[Brookshw]

No, you can use a teleportation circle (if you have the circle's identifying sigils), you can use that Blue Dream spell from the Tasha's (if you have an item from the setting in question), or you can travel to a different plane via Plane Shift then Plane Shift again to be in the Material Plane but on a different world (may not work depending on the world's conditions and protections).

Planewalkers can also do it as one of their explicit abilities. Since Planewalkers are a D&D thing too since a while ago.

Oh, sorry, I was referring to non-spell means, apologies if that was unclear. I acknowledge spells can bypass the Astral. That's an interesting point about teleportation circle, I don't think 5e included a bit about teleportation using the astral to function as it used to.

[Millstone85]

Theros would fit really well in the Astral Sea, as a lone flat material world with its own private sun and tightly surrounded by astral dominions.

Still no clue where to put the Blind Eternities, though.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Short answer, feels like you're trying to force it.

Not at all. The Inner Planes, Astral, Prime Material, Ethereal, Outer planes are essentially a dimension. The same as Time, Width, Height and Depth.

The two rooms I mentioned, they both exist on the same plane of left to right from the perspective of the hallway, but you have to travel along the plane of forward to back to get to each one. And you have to travel the plane of up and down to get to my office which is below my spouse's.

On the same logic there is, say, Today, April 11th, 2023 where this is my house with my spouse and I in it and then there is say April 16th, 2005 where this is not my house and other people are in it.

Further on the same logic This "space" exists on the Prime material plane but you could (For sake of this argument) move to the Astral or the ethereal from here. And if you were to keep traveling on one or the other you keep moving onward to other things.

Quantum Physics is a nightmare to wrap your head around for the most part.


there was always and only one material plane going back to dragon magazine #8 when they were first introduced (#7? One of those). D&D planes come with an extra hiccup because not only are they discrete from one another, but they're are also part of one unified cosmology that's further discrete for other planes (i.e., nightmare dimension, far plane).

None of which changed. The Primes are essentially sitting next to each other with near impenetrable barriers between them which you can circumvent with magic as Unoriginal mentioned, or by traveling to the Astral and Back, or the Ethereal and back. The difference between the Primes now and the Primes before is that they are surrounding by the Astral Sea instead of arbitrary expanse of infinite gasoline.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I really wish they hadn't ghosted Todd Stewart and let him write PlaneScape material.

[Millstone85]

The Inner planes connect through the Astral Plane to the Prime where all the "worlds" are. From there you can transition to the Ethereal and if you "go far enough" you end up in the Outer Planes.
The Inner Planes, Astral, Prime Material, Ethereal, Outer planes are essentially a dimension. The same as Time, Width, Height and Depth.You seem to have a tendency to switch the positions of the Ethereal and the Astral. :smallsmile:

Anyway, yeah, before Spelljammer I would have described the 5e cosmology as a 7-dimensional sandwich.

Each plane is 4-dimensional, possessing temporality, width, height and depth. Then the planes are stacked on top of each other along a 5th dimension, although some are grouped in rings hence the need for a 6th and 7th dimension.

To prepare the sandwich you first put the ring of the Inner Planes, then the Ethereal, then the Material, then the Astral, and finally the ring of the Outer Planes.

The Positive and the Negative would be sauce flowing down opposite sides of the sandwich, forming the Feywild and the Shadowfell on the sides of the Material.

Also, you are the Far Realm looking hungrily at the sandwich. :smallbiggrin:

Joke aside, this is the vision I tried to convey on my map of the planes (see signature).

However, 5e Spelljammer made it so it is now possible to travel from the Material to the Astral, and back, without resorting to any 5th dimension. Just move along the width of a material planetary system, and of course through time, and you will reach an astral expanse.

That complicates things. Now you have to go into how each plane could "bend" upward or downward, and also something something quantum. Or just throw your hands in the air and go for the boring old "It's magic I ain't gonna explain it". :smallyuk:

[Brookshw]

Not at all. The Inner Planes, Astral, Prime Material, Ethereal, Outer planes are essentially a dimension. The same as Time, Width, Height and Depth.

The two rooms I mentioned, they both exist on the same plane of left to right from the perspective of the hallway, but you have to travel along the plane of forward to back to get to each one. And you have to travel the plane of up and down to get to my office which is below my spouse's.

On the same logic there is, say, Today, April 11th, 2023 where this is my house with my spouse and I in it and then there is say April 16th, 2005 where this is not my house and other people are in it.

Further on the same logic This "space" exists on the Prime material plane but you could (For sake of this argument) move to the Astral or the ethereal from here. And if you were to keep traveling on one or the other you keep moving onward to other things.

Quantum Physics is a nightmare to wrap your head around for the most part.



None of which changed. The Primes are essentially sitting next to each other with near impenetrable barriers between them which you can circumvent with magic as Unoriginal mentioned, or by traveling to the Astral and Back, or the Ethereal and back. The difference between the Primes now and the Primes before is that they are surrounding by the Astral Sea instead of arbitrary expanse of infinite gasoline.

I understand your interpretation and appreciate your effort in explaining it, however, I disagree with your assertions of the pre-5e SJ state of being which may be the difference here. The "Primes" were the "Prime Worlds" not the "Prime Material Plane", the sea of gas still sat within the PMP, whereas the Astral does not. To go from point A if Forgotten Realms/Realm Space to point B on Greyhawk/Greyspace was, effectively, a straight line (possibly/probably with physical bodies in the way), there was no requirement to ever leave the PMP to arrive at your destination. To your analogy, previously you could, say, bust a hole in the ceiling to arrive at wife's office, removing a physical impediment rather than a spacial one; that simply is no longer the case which is why I don't agree with the analogy.

What this new approach/cosmology 5e SJ proposed seems, at least to me, to be more akin to the treatment of demiplanes within the Ethereal where each is a distinct planar entity even if they're the same 'type' of plane (a demiplane in that case, a PMP in SJ's). Admittedly that's not a perfect comparison as there are various types of planar boundaries for each demiplane, but I think its closer to this new model.

Otoh, there's a certain ontological threshold matter to be resolved about what constitutes a "plane" and if they require spacial continuity to be the same plane. As far as D&D is concerned, I believe the answer traditionally, at least in most cases, leans towards 'yes'. It get a bit tricky when you start talking about layers, though most can be traversed from one to another through some type of physical path without leaving the plane (I'm sure there are exceptions).


I really wish they hadn't ghosted Todd Stewart and let him write PlaneScape material.

That would have been fantastic, Todd Stewart is great and would have done a terrific job with a setting he clearly loves.

[OvisCaedo]

That would have been fantastic, Todd Stewart is great and would have done a terrific job with a setting he clearly loves.

I think loving the setting normally disqualifies someone from being a setting writer for 5e

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I think loving the setting normally disqualifies someone from being a setting writer for 5e

*eladrin noises of agreement*

[Pixel_Kitsune]

You seem to have a tendency to switch the positions of the Ethereal and the Astral. :smallsmile:

Thank you for the correction, agree with the rest. :)


I understand your interpretation and appreciate your effort in explaining it, however, I disagree with your assertions of the pre-5e SJ state of being which may be the difference here. The "Primes" were the "Prime Worlds" not the "Prime Material Plane", the sea of gas still sat within the PMP, whereas the Astral does not. To go from point A if Forgotten Realms/Realm Space to point B on Greyhawk/Greyspace was, effectively, a straight line (possibly/probably with physical bodies in the way), there was no requirement to ever leave the PMP to arrive at your destination. To your analogy, previously you could, say, bust a hole in the ceiling to arrive at wife's office, removing a physical impediment rather than a spacial one; that simply is no longer the case which is why I don't agree with the analogy.

Except the analogy doesn't go anywhere, just the level of effort to do it one way or another. Pre 5e the Crystal Sphere barriers were unbreakable and impenetrable save for a few specific magical methods. Just like in 5e you can't go straight from one prime to another without certain specific magic. The type of magic changed some, but not the core idea.

[Brookshw]

I think loving the setting normally disqualifies someone from being a setting writer for 5e

Yeowch! Fair. :smallbiggrin:



Except the analogy doesn't go anywhere, just the level of effort to do it one way or another. Pre 5e the Crystal Sphere barriers were unbreakable and impenetrable save for a few specific magical methods. Just like in 5e you can't go straight from one prime to another without certain specific magic. The type of magic changed some, but not the core idea.

From understanding the layout of the cosmology I see a difference in all Prime Worlds existing in one PMP, even if not easily traversed, and a scattering of PMPs with no connection, YMMV. I suppose as a note, not all crystal sphere's actually require magic to traverse, some, such as Greyspace, do enjoy spontaneous gates that allow for egress.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

From understanding the layout of the cosmology I see a difference in all Prime Worlds existing in one PMP, even if not easily traversed, and a scattering of PMPs with no connection, YMMV. I suppose as a note, not all crystal sphere's actually require magic to traverse, some, such as Greyspace, do enjoy spontaneous gates that allow for egress.

Maybe that's the disconnect between us? I see the primes as rooms in a row next to each other, you have to go to the Astral(hallway) to go to a different room. Or, with the right magic, you can traverse through the wall from one to another.

The only difference is Ships could just go before where as now it takes teleport circles of the Tasha spell. As for the spontaneous gates, those are still magic, they're just randomly occurring on their own vs the ones that are forced into being.

[Brookshw]

Maybe that's the disconnect between us? I see the primes as rooms in a row next to each other, you have to go to the Astral(hallway) to go to a different room. Or, with the right magic, you can traverse through the wall from one to another. Probably. Where I think this matters for D&D's cosmology is that if there are multiple primes rather than a single PMP then I don't know how we can really say that the PMP is at the center of a great wheel model (iB4 center of all), seems like the Astral really moves into the central and the prime worlds just become,...I don't know, candy topics scattered on a cake? Or islands? I think you get it.


The only difference is Ships could just go before where as now it takes teleport circles of the Tasha spell. As for the spontaneous gates, those are still magic, they're just randomly occurring on their own vs the ones that are forced into being. Well, see my above. As to the gates, naturally occurring phenomena of magical original maybe? That's just one example, I haven't really looked closely at the setting in almost 30 years so I'd have to go pull out books to check all the different ways you can access the sphere's without taking some type of action (aside from moving forward).

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Probably. Where I think this matters for D&D's cosmology is that if there are multiple primes rather than a single PMP then I don't know how we can really say that the PMP is at the center of a great wheel model (iB4 center of all), seems like the Astral really moves into the central and the prime worlds just become,...I don't know, I don't know, candy topics scattered on a cake? Or islands? I think you get it.

Except you can't go from the Astral straight to the Ethereal. You have to go through a Prime world. So it remains the "center".

For your analogy there has to be some type of whole impenetrable barrier between the frosting and the air requiring you to go through the sprinkles to traverse.

[Brookshw]

Except you can't go from the Astral straight to the Ethereal. You have to go through a Prime world. So it remains the "center".

Why would access to the Ethereal determine the center, and which Prime world is at the center?:smalltongue::smallwink:

[Envyus]

Why would access to the Ethereal determine the center, and which Prime world is at the center?:smalltongue::smallwink:

The Prime is the Center cause you can get to both the Astral and Ethereal from it, but without magic you can’t get to the Ethereal to Astral or vice versa.

[Millstone85]

I see the primes as rooms in a row next to each other, you have to go to the Astral(hallway) to go to a different room.And approaching any of a room's walls automatically brings you to the hallway? I don't know, I think that analogy doesn't work for me either.


Why would access to the Ethereal determine the center, and which Prime world is at the center?:smalltongue::smallwink:Well there are two transitive planes that each hold roughly half of the cosmology. Material worlds have a close relationship with both, so that puts them in a kind of central position.

They do have competition though:

The ethereal border of each material world is a close contender to the material world itself.
White astral color pools link directly to the (Deep?) Ethereal.
Ether cyclones have a 1 in 20 chance to hurl you into the Astral (Sea?).

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

The Prime is the Center cause you can get to both the Astral and Ethereal from it, but without magic you can’t get to the Ethereal to Astral or vice versa.

So if we're extending the house analogy from earlier, the Outer Planes are, uh, the inside of the house, like the drawing room or whatever. Then the Astral is the hallway, connecting all the bedrooms, which are the various PMPs. Only the bedrooms have windows (Ethereal windows!) which allow you to jump, uh, outside into the Inner Planes. This is a dumb analogy.

The Prime ends up being the center of the cosmology when modeled from the perspective of planar travel. But in an Astral Sea model rather than a PlaneJammer one, with multiple PMPs scattered throughout the Sea, the travel model and a graphical/mapping model don't match, and don't have the same center. It's like a more pronounced Geographical North Pole versus Magnetic North Pole.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Why would access to the Ethereal determine the center, and which Prime world is at the center?:smalltongue::smallwink:

Because the Prime is only the "Center" when looking at the fact that the Inner leads to the Ethereal leads to the Prime leads to the Astral leads to the Outer.

Planescape has always taken a very clear concept that whereever you are is the "Center of the Multiverse" Because every plane being infinitely big means there's no true center, only conceptual centers based on perception and placement.

Why do people think Sigil is the center of the Outer planes? Because it's in the middle of the TN plane? Because the TN plane has Portals to everywhere? Better yet, how can you give dimension to the TN Plane when it's technically infinite too with the portals to other planes being a perceived certain distance out? Which, by the way, that Distance is theoretically 3 days travel from the Spire or 18, or if you go anywhere else in the middle keep compounding that number. Since Travel is wonky and unreliable as a time measurement in the Outer planes.

Measurement and time have no coherent meaning in about half of D&D reality and any coherent mapping or layout is mostly for our basis of use and understanding.


And approaching any of a room's walls automatically brings you to the hallway? I don't know, I think that analogy doesn't work for me either.

I am explaining a 5 dimensional space using 3 dimensions as an analogy. It won't hold up perfectly, it's there to comprehend the rough idea.


So if we're extending the house analogy from earlier, the Outer Planes are, uh, the inside of the house, like the drawing room or whatever. Then the Astral is the hallway, connecting all the bedrooms, which are the various PMPs. Only the bedrooms have windows (Ethereal windows!) which allow you to jump, uh, outside into the Inner Planes. This is a dumb analogy.

Since the analogy is just to demonstrate moving along different dimensions, not a literal comparison, it is indeed dumb.

But to put it in perspective, if the Hallway is the Astral and the two rooms are the Prime. The Ethereal is outside the bedroom windows, which you cannot reach from the hallway, you have to go from the hallway into a room and through the window.

Now, again, as a comparison or full fledged diagram, yeah, it doesn't hold. Because the goal was never a full diagram, the goal was to show that things can exist on the same plane (in this case the Left-Right axis) without being able to access each other.

[Millstone85]

And then there is Eberron, which Rising from the Last War decided was hiding somewhere in the Deep Ethereal in order to remain undisturbed by the gods of the Astral and Outer Planes.

This could be irrelevant to the upcoming Planescape product, unless perhaps if Crawford decides to once again showcase his character: the gnome artificer Vi, born on Eberron but most active in Sigil.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

And then there is Eberron, which Rising from the Last War decided was hiding somewhere in the Deep Ethereal in order to remain undisturbed by the gods of the Astral and Outer Planes.

This could be irrelevant to the upcoming Planescape product, unless perhaps if Crawford decides to once again showcase his character: the gnome artificer Vi, born on Eberron but most active in Sigil.

It's the only way to have Eberron be part of the greater multiverse while still maintaining it's own cosmology.

It's not new, there's always been Prime worlds that are obscure and pocketed away. Look at DarkSun which is so cut off from the Astral that it has literally no gods.

[Brookshw]

Because the Prime is only the "Center" when looking at the fact that the Inner leads to the Ethereal leads to the Prime leads to the Astral leads to the Outer.

Planescape has always taken a very clear concept that whereever you are is the "Center of the Multiverse" Because every plane being infinitely big means there's no true center, only conceptual centers based on perception and placement.

Why do people think Sigil is the center of the Outer planes? Because it's in the middle of the TN plane? Because the TN plane has Portals to everywhere? Better yet, how can you give dimension to the TN Plane when it's technically infinite too with the portals to other planes being a perceived certain distance out? Which, by the way, that Distance is theoretically 3 days travel from the Spire or 18, or if you go anywhere else in the middle keep compounding that number. Since Travel is wonky and unreliable as a time measurement in the Outer planes.

Measurement and time have no coherent meaning in about half of D&D reality and any coherent mapping or layout is mostly for our basis of use and understanding.


Sheesh, I just mentioned center of all and here you go trying to explain it :smalltongue:

Anyway, kidding aside, I'm curious if they'll make any [further] changes to the cosmology when PS is released (and hoping the answer is 'no').

Would be nice to see a few things progress like the Loth's finally finishing their third tower.

[Millstone85]

It's the only way to have Eberron be part of the greater multiverse while still maintaining it's own cosmology.There is another way, which alas would be disparaged as a 4e-ism:

Thelanis is Eberron's specific echo in the Feywild.
Dolurrh is Eberron's specific echo in the Shadowfell.
The rest are astral dominions close to "Shardspace".

Denying souls to the Outer Planes is the Shadowfell's bread and butter, so just have Dolurrh be especially good at it. This would justify the gods' (possible) disinterest for Eberron.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

There is another way, which alas would be disparaged as a 4e-ism:

Thelanis is Eberron's specific echo in the Feywild.
Dolurrh is Eberron's specific echo in the Shadowfell.
The rest are astral dominions close to "Shardspace".

Denying souls to the Outer Planes is the Shadowfell's bread and butter, so just have Dolurrh be especially good at it. This would justify the gods' (possible) disinterest for Eberron.

Works for me, specially with how Dolurrh describes as bleaching and killing off everything that made a soul an individual...

Never bothered me with different interpretations of worlds. After all, the main world in my shared universe with my spouse is technically a chunk of the Domains of Dread broken away by something approaching deity power and hiding who knows where. None of which fits the normal lore of 5e or older editions.

[Rukelnikov]

It's the only way to have Eberron be part of the greater multiverse while still maintaining it's own cosmology.

It's not new, there's always been Prime worlds that are obscure and pocketed away. Look at DarkSun which is so cut off from the Astral that it has literally no gods.

And, if memory serves, the Realms are supposedly forgotten because they are hard to reach (for instance, Lolth needed to follow a champion of Corellon thru the abyss to be able to find them)

[Pixel_Kitsune]

And, if memory serves, the Realms are supposedly forgotten because they are hard to reach (for instance, Lolth needed to follow a champion of Corellon thru the abyss to be able to find them)

That's an interpretation, I always took it as just Lolth wasn't paying attention at the time. Infinite Prime worlds a deity is bound to miss a few. From her perspective the World of Faerie was destroyed. She probably paid no attention to the few who fled, or that the world had an elven presence already.

But yeah, she learns of the Realms when some Orcs summon a Tanar'ri that was subjugated by her and it kidnapped a Champion of Correlon's spouse. So she marched into the Abyss after him. Then ran into Kiaransalee, who agreed to give the Champion a path to her target in exchange for declaring every victory in the Abyss in the name of Corellon.

Queue Lolth glancing over metaphorically and seeing an Elf killing demon after demon after demon shouting "For Corelleon!" each time and then beating a Tanar'ri even Lolth was sketchy about to death with a sword. She follows them back, then finds the Drow that worship Guanadar in the south and gets to work.

All that story aside, I don't think you can call Toril "Forgotten" to the greater multiverse after 17,600 DR when a literal chunk of the CG Outer Plane Aborea was yanked and stuck in the western ocean off the sword coast...

[Rukelnikov]

That's an interpretation, I always took it as just Lolth wasn't paying attention at the time. Infinite Prime worlds a deity is bound to miss a few. From her perspective the World of Faerie was destroyed. She probably paid no attention to the few who fled, or that the world had an elven presence already.

But yeah, she learns of the Realms when some Orcs summon a Tanar'ri that was subjugated by her and it kidnapped a Champion of Correlon's spouse. So she marched into the Abyss after him. Then ran into Kiaransalee, who agreed to give the Champion a path to her target in exchange for declaring every victory in the Abyss in the name of Corellon.

Queue Lolth glancing over metaphorically and seeing an Elf killing demon after demon after demon shouting "For Corelleon!" each time and then beating a Tanar'ri even Lolth was sketchy about to death with a sword. She follows them back, then finds the Drow that worship Guanadar in the south and gets to work.

All that story aside, I don't think you can call Toril "Forgotten" to the greater multiverse after 17,600 DR when a literal chunk of the CG Outer Plane Aborea was yanked and stuck in the western ocean off the sword coast...

It can't be as secretive to the creatures of Arborea, but I don't know if that means all the outer planes know about Evermeet which is pretty much a natural demiplane (given conventional sailing won't get you there, but fulfilling some criteria will, and it connects to different planes)

EDIT: btw I always liked Kethrillya's story because its one where a moon elf screws up in the pursuit of a well intended enterprise, and yet she is one of the only 2 "major" champions acknowledged with statues in Evermeet. Its a way a being chaotic good, "good that doesn't think about the consequences of their actions"

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I don't know that all the planes know about the place, just that it's probably not that secretive.

In general I was really pleased with Evermeet because it's line after line of people who have good intentions but fail in spectacular ways. It makes them human, because they're not perfect.

Durothil nearly goes full on evil and screwed up and leads to the death of several good beings before finally making a good choice, his evil never known because the legacy of his actions is too important.

Sharlario literally starts a chain reaction of doom across the series by accepting the Scrying dagger from Ka'Narlist.

We covered Kethrylia. Meanwhile Starleaf killed how many in trying to create an Elven Homeland?

Rolim Durothil and Ava Moonflower were by all accounts great barring a few hiccups, but then, we see little of them in the story as a result.

Their Grandson who's name escapes me is a stark constract of bad person and noble lord and the line is weird...

[Rukelnikov]

I don't know that all the planes know about the place, just that it's probably not that secretive.

In general I was really pleased with Evermeet because it's line after line of people who have good intentions but fail in spectacular ways. It makes them human, because they're not perfect.

Durothil nearly goes full on evil and screwed up and leads to the death of several good beings before finally making a good choice, his evil never known because the legacy of his actions is too important.

Sharlario literally starts a chain reaction of doom across the series by accepting the Scrying dagger from Ka'Narlist.

We covered Kethrylia. Meanwhile Starleaf killed how many in trying to create an Elven Homeland?

Powerful but fallible, closer perhaps to Tolkien elves.


Rolim Durothil and Ava Moonflower were by all accounts great barring a few hiccups, but then, we see little of them in the story as a result.

Their Grandson who's name escapes me is a stark constract of bad person and noble lord and the line is weird...

I don't really remember them.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I don't really remember them.

Rolim and Ava were mostly off screen. We have one chapter with Rolim who is offended by his mousy moonelf wife and in general is the typical Sun Elf Supremacy. During their sailing to Evermeet the ship is attacked and he's dimissive of the Sea Elves dying to protect them. He makes a comment and Ava essentially threatens to kill him if he brings his racism to Evermeet. He watches the fighting and has an understanding of how wrong he's been, rushing to aid the sea elves. The two of them end up well matched and become the non Monarch Rulers of Evermeet the rest of their life, being regarded as fair and good.

Their Grandson, who's name I still can't think of, was an Elven High Wizard with some of the Sunelf superiority in mind but not as bad as others. He in general spends his chapters trying to maneuver himself into an actual Kingship, but in the process saves a crashing Spelljammer, gives Evermeet it's Starwing Fleet, barters or tames several Krakens and Dragon Turtles into guarding Evermeet and in general is a solid guy.

[Rukelnikov]

Rolim and Ava were mostly off screen. We have one chapter with Rolim who is offended by his mousy moonelf wife and in general is the typical Sun Elf Supremacy. During their sailing to Evermeet the ship is attacked and he's dimissive of the Sea Elves dying to protect them. He makes a comment and Ava essentially threatens to kill him if he brings his racism to Evermeet. He watches the fighting and has an understanding of how wrong he's been, rushing to aid the sea elves. The two of them end up well matched and become the non Monarch Rulers of Evermeet the rest of their life, being regarded as fair and good.

Their Grandson, who's name I still can't think of, was an Elven High Wizard with some of the Sunelf superiority in mind but not as bad as others. He in general spends his chapters trying to maneuver himself into an actual Kingship, but in the process saves a crashing Spelljammer, gives Evermeet it's Starwing Fleet, barters or tames several Krakens and Dragon Turtles into guarding Evermeet and in general is a solid guy.

Thanks, their grandson sounds very cool.

[Unoriginal]

And, if memory serves, the Realms are supposedly forgotten because they are hard to reach (for instance, Lolth needed to follow a champion of Corellon thru the abyss to be able to find them)

I think the name comes because some realms in Toril come from Earth. As in, they got yanked whole and the Earth humans forgot about them.

[Thane of Fife]

The explanation for the name of the Forgotten Realms comes from the first boxed set:


The "Forgotten Realms" derive their name from the fictitious fact upon which play in my campaign is based; that a multiverse exists, of countless parallel co-existing Prime Material Planes (including the world presented herein, our own modern "Earth," and any other fantasy settings the DM may wish to incorporate in play), all related to the Known Planes of Existence presented in the AD&D system. Travel betwixt these planes was once far more common than is the case now (when few know the means of reaching other worlds, or even believe in the existence of such fanciful places); hence, the Realms have been "forgotten" by beings of Earth. Our legends of dragons, vampires, and of other fearsome creatures and magic are due to this formerly widespread contact between the worlds; most have of course become confused and distorted with the passage of time and many retellings.

This of course predates the Spelljammer/Planescape retcon which changed the formerly many Prime Material Planes into just one.

[Millstone85]

All that story aside, I don't think you can call Toril "Forgotten" to the greater multiverse after 17,600 DR when a literal chunk of the CG Outer Plane Aborea was yanked and stuck in the western ocean off the sword coast...
It can't be as secretive to the creatures of Arborea, but I don't know if that means all the outer planes know about Evermeet which is pretty much a natural demiplane (given conventional sailing won't get you there, but fulfilling some criteria will, and it connects to different planes)For something that would make Realmspace known among the Outer Planes in general, I would point to all the gods born of the Realms who now run afterlives of various alignments.

Some examples:

Bane's Black Bastion is part of Avalas, the first layer of LN/LE Acheron.
Cyric's Shattered Castle is part of Cocytus, the second layer of CN/CE Pandemonium.
Mystra's Dweomerheart is part of Eronia, the second layer of NG Elysium.

On that note, I consider the World Tree to be compatible with the Great Wheel. I see the tree as a planar shortcut that keeps Realmspace in touch with its gods, wherever their homes may otherwise be located.

I also headcanon that when the Spellplague killed the tree in 1385 DR, it had the effect of pulling out the divine realms from their respective Outer Planes, transforming them into drifting astral dominions. Other wildspace systems and their gods would have heard of this event but not otherwise been affected by it. Then, as of 1489 DR, Realmspace, its afterlives and perhaps the World Tree itself have fully healed from the Spellplague.

I don't have any theory to explain the disappearance of the Phlogiston between editions. That will have to remain a straight retcon.


This of course predates the Spelljammer/Planescape retcon which changed the formerly many Prime Material Planes into just one.Then I guess we are now back to multiple material planes.

[Beelzebub1111]

I wonder if they will include things about how magic is affected on different planes or how casting ability is weakened the further away the plane you are currently on is away from your god.

Probably not. At most they will have the Outlands spell level limits the closer you get to the center. 5e will not under any circumstances inconvenience a player's abilities.

[Millstone85]

I wonder if they will include things about how magic is affected on different planes or how casting ability is weakened the further away the plane you are currently on is away from your god.

Probably not. At most they will have the Outlands spell level limits the closer you get to the center. 5e will not under any circumstances inconvenience a player's abilities.And I believe that the two characters page 67 of the DMG should be dead.
You don't touch the Spire, much less stand on it, and survive.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/8/89/Sigil-5e.jpg

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I wonder if they will include things about how magic is affected on different planes or how casting ability is weakened the further away the plane you are currently on is away from your god.

Probably not. At most they will have the Outlands spell level limits the closer you get to the center. 5e will not under any circumstances inconvenience a player's abilities.

I think some of those rules were commonly house-ruled or ignored even in the heyday of Planescape.

[Brookshw]

I think some of those rules were commonly house-ruled or ignored even in the heyday of Planescape.

I can't imagine they'll bring back spell/power keys or the magic items properties weakening as they move away from their plane of origin, huge tracking annoyance. (and yes, definitely ignored those in the heyday)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I can't imagine they'll bring back spell/power keys or the magic items properties weakening as they move away from their plane of origin, huge tracking annoyance. (and yes, definitely ignored those in the heyday)

It would be an immense (and welcome?) swerve if, in the rules-lite edition where the DM is expected to figure everything out, where they don't have ship combat or docking crunch for Spelljammer, they publish a massive table of super detailed inter-planar magic interactions. Cast fireball on the Elemental Plane of Air as a cleric of Nobanion on Tuesday? It acts as if it's been cast from a spell slot one level higher! Cast fireball as a lore bard who worships Urdlen while you're in the Beastlands, and it's Wednesday? That's a paddlin', you better believe it. And don't even get me started on what happens if you do it on Cania!

Yeah. My expectation is they'll nod to it in a four-sentence sidebar. "Magic works differently on the Planes, if you choose you can change the behavior of spells based on the location of the caster and the traits of the plane, this is your world."

[Brookshw]

It would be an immense (and welcome?) swerve if, in the rules-lite edition where the DM is expected to figure everything out, where they don't have ship combat or docking crunch for Spelljammer, they publish a massive table of super detailed inter-planar magic interactions. Cast fireball on the Elemental Plane of Air as a cleric of Nobanion on Tuesday? It acts as if it's been cast from a spell slot one level higher! Cast fireball as a lore bard who worships Urdlen while you're in the Beastlands, and it's Wednesday? That's a paddlin', you better believe it. And don't even get me started on what happens if you do it on Cania!

Yeah. My expectation is they'll nod to it in a four-sentence sidebar. "Magic works differently on the Planes, if you choose you can change the behavior of spells based on the location of the caster and the traits of the plane, this is your world."

Heh. I'd guess (or, at least, hope,) they'll keep a few spell conditions that have a fundamental connection to a plane (e.g., no ethereal travel on the outer planes, etc.) but doubt we'll see much beyond that. I think your guess at a sidebar of optional rules could be a good one.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Heh. I'd guess (or, at least, hope,) they'll keep a few spell conditions that have a fundamental connection to a plane (e.g., no ethereal travel on the outer planes, etc.) but doubt we'll see much beyond that. I think your guess at a sidebar of optional rules could be a good one.

If they don't keep at least some of that stuff then I don't know what the point of publishing the setting is.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If they don't keep at least some of that stuff then I don't know what the point of publishing the setting is.

[half-blue]Cashing in on nostalgia?[/half-blue]

[Brookshw]

[half-blue]Cashing in on nostalgia?[/half-blue]

No way am I paying money for another spelljammer :smallmad:

[PhoenixPhyre]

No way am I paying money for another spelljammer :smallmad:

Yeah. That's the real risk, especially with nostalgia elements--it's really really easy to ruin them and destroy the "franchise" by not understanding why people liked it. Which often aren't the reasons that they seemed to be. Plus, since everything is prettier through nostalgia goggles...competing with that is hard.

----

Personally (and unpopularly), I think neither OG Planescape nor OG Spelljammer was all that great to begin with. The whole Great Wheel is jank, and bolting more stuff onto it in various ways just increases that. But that's all I'll say on this thread.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Yeah. That's the real risk, especially with nostalgia elements--it's really really easy to ruin them and destroy the "franchise" by not understanding why people liked it. Which often aren't the reasons that they seemed to be. Plus, since everything is prettier through nostalgia goggles...competing with that is hard.

----

Personally (and unpopularly), I think neither OG Planescape nor OG Spelljammer was all that great to begin with. The whole Great Wheel is jank, and bolting more stuff onto it in various ways just increases that. But that's all I'll say on this thread.

What matters I think is whether WOTC's current design team has the capacity to do it well. A setting that's totally faithful to 2E Planescape could bomb if it's poorly thought-through, as we saw with 2E Planescape books like Warriors of Heaven. A setting that throws out all the old assumptions and rebuilds them could be super popular, if they have the ability to make it really good. Reaction to Spelljammer, which I didn't buy, suggests they don't (plus their reluctance to write setting-specific material, other than hashtag-corporate synergy or influencer IP). There's definitely a lot of fixing that can be done around the edges of the Planescape setting, but some of the choices they've made in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes etc suggest that maybe they have a bit of a Chesterton's Fence problem.

[PhoenixPhyre]

What matters I think is whether WOTC's current design team has the capacity to do it well. A setting that's totally faithful to 2E Planescape could bomb if it's poorly thought-through, as we saw with 2E Planescape books like Warriors of Heaven. A setting that throws out all the old assumptions and rebuilds them could be super popular, if they have the ability to make it really good. Reaction to Spelljammer, which I didn't buy, suggests they don't (plus their reluctance to write setting-specific material, other than hashtag-corporate synergy or influencer IP). There's definitely a lot of fixing that can be done around the edges of the Planescape setting, but some of the choices they've made in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes etc suggest that maybe they have a bit of a Chesterton's Fence problem.

Strong agree. Combined with some "designers gotta design" issues.

[Brookshw]

What matters I think is whether WOTC's current design team has the capacity to do it well. A setting that's totally faithful to 2E Planescape could bomb if it's poorly thought-through, as we saw with 2E Planescape books like Warriors of Heaven. A setting that throws out all the old assumptions and rebuilds them could be super popular, if they have the ability to make it really good. Reaction to Spelljammer, which I didn't buy, suggests they don't (plus their reluctance to write setting-specific material, other than hashtag-corporate synergy or influencer IP). There's definitely a lot of fixing that can be done around the edges of the Planescape setting, but some of the choices they've made in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes etc suggest that maybe they have a bit of a Chesterton's Fence problem.

They've already changed some key points in the setting, like the Oinloth no longer being the title for one of the supreme leaders of the Loth's but now is just a type of loth, though some changes like to the Slaad backstory don't seem of have any real significance.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

They've already changed some key points in the setting, like the Oinloth no longer being the title for one of the supreme leaders of the Loth's but now is just a type of loth, though some changes like to the Slaad backstory don't seem of have any real significance.

I mean, the big one for me is eladrin being sparkle-elves, not chaotic good exemplars. I like the concept, don't get me wrong, just... pick a different name!

They've done a lot of rearranging. A positive interpretation is that they've swept away a lot of the detritus that's built up over fifty years of Planar lore. Does it really matter if nupperibos are baatezu or baatorians? Does it matter if Asmodeus had a wife, actually? Honestly, not really. Start with a clean slate, simplify, then build on more stable foundations. A more negative interpretation is that they've gotten rid of a lot of the interesting nooks and crannies of the multiverse. It does matter that Asmodeus had a wife, and loved his wife, and had a daughter with his wife, and that Levistus killed her. That's the most interesting thing about Asmodeus! It makes him sympathetic, and what an incredible advantage for the Lord of Hell to possess!

It feels like there a lot of changes for the sake of change, and personally I'd like to see a bit more faithfulness to the source material than they've demonstrated so far. Or, as I've said with most of what they've done so far, I'd like them to just get it over with and make a clean break away from the assumptions of the past. Either do it or don't.

[Brookshw]

I mean, the big one for me is eladrin being sparkle-elves, not chaotic good exemplars. I like the concept, don't get me wrong, just... pick a different name!

They've done a lot of rearranging. A positive interpretation is that they've swept away a lot of the detritus that's built up over fifty years of Planar lore. Does it really matter if nupperibos are baatezu or baatorians? Does it matter if Asmodeus had a wife, actually? Honestly, not really. Start with a clean slate, simplify, then build on more stable foundations. A more negative interpretation is that they've gotten rid of a lot of the interesting nooks and crannies of the multiverse. It does matter that Asmodeus had a wife, and loved his wife, and had a daughter with his wife, and that Levistus killed her. That's the most interesting thing about Asmodeus! It makes him sympathetic, and what an incredible advantage for the Lord of Hell to possess!

It feels like there a lot of changes for the sake of change, and personally I'd like to see a bit more faithfulness to the source material than they've demonstrated so far. Or, as I've said with most of what they've done so far, I'd like them to just get it over with and make a clean break away from the assumptions of the past. Either do it or don't.

All absolutely fair points. As much as I'd appreciate fidelity (to the extent its possible) with existing lore, I guess at the end of the day I'd be happy with something reasonably detailed and developed as a setting (which wasn't the case with SJ); if they actually put forth a complete package setting wise, I'd at least consider, its not that hard to pull in old stuff if I'm inclined, and who knows, maybe they'll do something interesting that I'd want to use.

Otoh, if they do something stupid like Pages of Pain, NOPE!

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I wonder if they will include things about how magic is affected on different planes or how casting ability is weakened the further away the plane you are currently on is away from your god.

Probably not. At most they will have the Outlands spell level limits the closer you get to the center. 5e will not under any circumstances inconvenience a player's abilities.

In general hindering the players out and out is just asking for balance issues. Taking away tons of abilities from some but not all the party isn't particularly enjoyable at most tables.


And I believe that the two characters page 67 of the DMG should be dead.
You don't touch the Spire, much less stand on it, and survive.

I hadn't even noticed how screwed up that is. You're not even supposed to be able to see the Spire from Sigil or vice verse.

Also, you can be by and on the Spire, 2e talks at length about the occasional person trying to climb it like Mt Everest. The only problem is it's infinitely tall so no matter how high you get you're never anywhere near the top.


I mean, the big one for me is eladrin being sparkle-elves, not chaotic good exemplars. I like the concept, don't get me wrong, just... pick a different name!

I have my fingers crossed for the Archons, Guardinals and Eladrin returning. Personally at my tables they never went anywhere and the PC Eladrin (And in general seasoning Eladrin) are just another version of them. In fact, I have an Eladrin PC that's essentially based on Gwydion from Welsh mythology (with the evil filed off) that is an agent of Morwel to this day.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Otoh, if they do something stupid like Pages of Pain, NOPE!

I will be very interested in how they handle the Lady of Pain, and what the status of Sigil is. I am... not optimistic.

[Millstone85]

I hadn't even noticed how screwed up that is. You're not even supposed to be able to see the Spire from Sigil or vice verse.Uh, why not?


Also, you can be by and on the Spire, 2e talks at length about the occasional person trying to climb it like Mt Everest. The only problem is it's infinitely tall so no matter how high you get you're never anywhere near the top.The dangers of the Spire must have been oversold to me. I thought the effects on magic eventually got so dire that even your life force was suppressed.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Uh, why not?

The dangers of the Spire must have been oversold to me. I thought the effects on magic eventually got so dire that even your life force was suppressed.

For your first question, because. Honestly, it's never explained exactly how something can be at the top of an infinitely tall object. It's also very carefully avoided ever addressing if that really is Sigil up there. From the outside, on the spire, you can't ever reach the top to verify if that disc at the top is actually Sigil. From the inside of Sigil if you actually burrow down or climb to the edge you see Nothing. And I don't mean there's nothing there, or darkness. I mean the literal concept of nothing that no mortal mind can actually handle and it breaks your brain. You either lose it entirely or just can't even remember what you saw.

For the second, as far as the 2e Box set says it's just full magical annulment but it ends up being a great neutral ground because everyone is rendered anti magiced from mortals to Greater Powers. But nothing about it being harmful other than the anti magic.

The actual wording is "At the center of the Outlands, around the base of the spire that supports Sigil, is the ultimate negation of power. No magic or godly faculties of any type work here. This is the ultimate in meeting grounds, for here everyone, no matter how powerful, is rendered equal. It's rarely visited, for only the most pressing business can fore the greater gods to parley here."

[Millstone85]

From the inside of Sigil if you actually burrow down or climb to the edge you see Nothing. And I don't mean there's nothing there, or darkness. I mean the literal concept of nothing that no mortal mind can actually handle and it breaks your brain.Lol, what? Better never look up, then, as you would see the opposite inner surface of Sigil framed between two mindbreaking Nothings.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Looking up I think you can in theory travel across, but you never see the Spire. Sigil breaks the laws of physics.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Looking up I think you can in theory travel across, but you never see the Spire. Sigil breaks the laws of physics.

I thiiiiink assuming 2E canon when you look up you see Sigil's sky: smoke and fog, rain and smog. Where that comes from, no one really knows, though enterprising types will tell you it's based on the Lady's mood and take your money to tell you what the weather will be tomorrow. Mostly what you see is buildings, and 'a gray arc with a few lights'. The torus is open, but if you tried jumping across you'd end up in the same place you would if you went over one of the sides: in the void, and from there into a random plane. You could interpret the portal diagram in Into the Cage as saying that trying to go 'across' the ring puts you in the Inner Planes and going over the sides puts you into an Outer plane, but that's just my interpretation of a picture.

[Millstone85]

Now I get why 4e thought it could have Sigil without the Outlands, not even floating in the Astral or anything. So after all, I like the 5e illustration better. Walking at a 90° angle inside a ring that visibly floats above the summit of a mountain at the apparent center of all the heavens and hells, that to me feels like a much more interesting brand of weirdness. Plus you can still get creative with whatever might be above the ring.

As an aside, 4e gave Sigil a rather claustrophobic makeover.


Sigil is a plane unto itself, existing outside the ordered structure of the rest of the universe and yet intricately connected to it through its unnumbered planar portals. It’s a filthy, noisy city with smokechoked alleyways and crowded streets. The city is built on the inside of a gigantic, hollow ring that has no outside.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/c0/Sigil_-_Jason_Engle.jpg

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/21/Sigil_by_night.jpg

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

For your first question, because. Honestly, it's never explained exactly how something can be at the top of an infinitely tall object. It's also very carefully avoided ever addressing if that really is Sigil up there. From the outside, on the spire, you can't ever reach the top to verify if that disc at the top is actually Sigil. From the inside of Sigil if you actually burrow down or climb to the edge you see Nothing. And I don't mean there's nothing there, or darkness. I mean the literal concept of nothing that no mortal mind can actually handle and it breaks your brain. You either lose it entirely or just can't even remember what you saw.

For the second, as far as the 2e Box set says it's just full magical annulment but it ends up being a great neutral ground because everyone is rendered anti magiced from mortals to Greater Powers. But nothing about it being harmful other than the anti magic.

The actual wording is "At the center of the Outlands, around the base of the spire that supports Sigil, is the ultimate negation of power. No magic or godly faculties of any type work here. This is the ultimate in meeting grounds, for here everyone, no matter how powerful, is rendered equal. It's rarely visited, for only the most pressing business can fore the greater gods to parley here."

Assuming old lore -- I don't know how 4E handles anything, and 5E's made a lot of change-for-the-sake-of-change adjustments -- questions like 'how high up is that' are sorta the wrong kind of question on the planes. Sigil can be at the top of an infinitely tall object the same way a gate town can be at the edge of an infinitely wide plane, or a finite creature like the draeden Ulgurshek can also be an infinite Abyssal layer, or four locations on a plane can all be 3d6 days travel from each other, no matter how far apart they actually are. The river Styx cuts across several planes and is a transportation artery through the lower planes; how does that work when all those planes are infinite in size? How can Sigil be visible from anywhere on an infinite plane? It just can; that's just how it works.

The Spire's effect not just magic annulment, it includes anything that would be considered Su or SLA in 3.5, and even some Ex abilities like natural poison cease to function. I don't have a cite for that, but I think it's in Player's Guide to the Outlands.

Edit: Player's Primer to the Outlands, pg 6: 6th ring, non-divine psionics stop functioning. 5th ring, all life-draining abilities cease functioning (presumably including Ex abilities). 4th ring, poison ceases to function.

[Millstone85]

Going back to a couple things.


But the CG? Called Eladrin, they're a Faerie Court run by a CG version of Asmodeus essentially. I'll be real curious if they invent new, change the name, or just have two things called Eladrin and don't fuss.
I mean, the big one for me is eladrin being sparkle-elves, not chaotic good exemplars. I like the concept, don't get me wrong, just... pick a different name!
I have my fingers crossed for the Archons, Guardinals and Eladrin returning. Personally at my tables they never went anywhere and the PC Eladrin (And in general seasoning Eladrin) are just another version of them.If the eladrin of old were a celestial faerie court, it may be as simple as saying eladrin have another court that is just fey. I am reading they have also always been elf-like in appearance, so them or some of them now having "Elf" as a creature subtype isn't so bad.

Maybe the Feywild's court was founded by eladrin who fell (or "sauntered vaguely downwards" like in Good Omens) from CG to CN. Or maybe the court in Arborea was founded by eladrin who successfully returned in Corellon's good graces. Either way, that event would be ancient and shrouded in legend.


I'd be asking if we might finally get the third transitive plane that connects the Outer Directly to the Inner...
Pixel's referring to a piece of older lore where there was a theoretical 3rd transitive plane (the Ordial Plane) that hadn't been discovered, it's existence was presumed based on the Rule of Threes is PS, and that while we had the Ethereal for the Prime and inners, and Astral for Prime and Outers, there wasn't something for Inners and Outer by way of direct connection.So first, it is a bit strange that this theoretical third transitive plane received a name that doesn't mean anything. I wonder if it is supposed to be midway between "ordinal" and "ordeal", or if it was a typo that stuck, or what.

Anyway, I understand the idea having appeal.

http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/allmap2.gif

So if the Astral is psychic stuff connecting planes of beliefs, and the Ethereal is like a fifth more evanescent element to connect the other four, would the Ordial be like astral ether, maybe the Aether that MtG planes are hiding in? That would be one way to resolve that crossover. :smallbiggrin:

Or the Ordial could be the forge of worlds, where all the overdeities hang out while massive elemental constructs (think Marvel's Celestials) assemble air, fire, water and earth into atmosphere, sun, ocean and land. Completed wildspace systems would then be sent to the less busy treshold between the Astral and the Ethereal.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Going back to a couple things.

If the eladrin of old were a celestial faerie court, it may be as simple as saying eladrin have another court that is just fey. I am reading they have also always been elf-like in appearance, so them or some of them now having "Elf" as a creature subtype isn't so bad.

---

So first, it is a bit strange that this theoretical third transitive plane received a name that doesn't mean anything. I wonder if it is supposed to be midway between "ordinal" and "ordeal", or if it was a typo that stuck, or what.

Anyway, I understand the idea having appeal.

http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/allmap2.gif

So if the Astral is psychic stuff connecting planes of beliefs, and the Ethereal is like a fifth more evanescent element to connect the other four, would the Ordial be like astral ether, maybe the Aether that MtG planes are hiding in? That would be one way to resolve that crossover. :smallbiggrin:

Or the Ordial could be the forge of worlds, where all the overdeities hang out while massive elemental constructs (think Marvel's Celestials) assemble air, fire, water and earth into atmosphere, sun, ocean and land. Completed wildspace systems would then be sent to the less busy treshold between the Astral and the Ethereal.

See, I just want eladrin to be the CG Exemplar. Not elves, not fey, not Corellon. CG Exemplars. I know that ship has sailed, but damnit I don't care.

The Astral plane is the plane of thought, what living beings do to arrive at belief, which is the aspect of the Outer planes. The Ethereal plane is possibility. Applied to the facts of the Inner planes, we arrive at life on the Material. The missing Ordial Plane, the Plane of Proof, would connect Belief to Fact. Of course, once you start talking about faith and philosophy, it's impossible to actually make that connection, so it's no surprise that the Ordial continues to elude anyone who searches for it. Granted, that's all classical Great Wheel-based speculation, but Planescape should be Great Wheel-based. Speaking solely for myself I'm happy for the Ordial to remain a hypothetical plane that can't be proven to exist.

[Rukelnikov]

See, I just want eladrin to be the CG Exemplar. Not elves, not fey, not Corellon. CG Exemplars. I know that ship has sailed, but damnit I don't care.

I don't think I get this, at least since 3e (and 90% sure at least since 2e) Eladrins have been celestials native to Arborea mostly serving Corellon. They are the CG exemplar, they also are elves, feyish, and servants of Corellon.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I don't think I get this, at least since 3e (and 90% sure at least since 2e) Eladrins have been celestials native to Arborea mostly serving Corellon. They are the CG exemplar, they also are elves, feyish, and servants of Corellon.

That may be true starting in 4E, which I know essentially nothing about. In both 2E and 3E, eladrin are neither elves nor fey, and exist separately of Corellon (or any of the other Powers on Arborea, for that matter). Warriors of Heaven and Book of Exalted Deeds are unambiguous about this. There's not a lot of detailed information about them, largely because there's not a lot of information on any plane that isn't Baator, the Abyss, or featured as a location in The Great Modron March, which skips Arborea.

There are plenty of elves on Arborea, especially in 2E, but that's a separate thing.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I don't think I get this, at least since 3e (and 90% sure at least since 2e) Eladrins have been celestials native to Arborea mostly serving Corellon. They are the CG exemplar, they also are elves, feyish, and servants of Corellon.

To be fair it's half way between that and what Quickly said.

The Eladrin were always relatively elf and fae like in how they presented, acted, organized themselves.

But no, while individual Eladrin might serve Corellon the group as a whole's allegiance, such as it is (They are CHAOTIC-Good angels) is to Morwel, the Queen of Stars.

And to be perfectly frank, while it's kind of debatable and never super clear. It's in general shown that Morwel, Asmodeus, Zaphikiel, and to a lesser extent Demogorgon are more than capable of curb stomping Greater Powers. Even things like Orcus and Primus can match Greater Powers but their nature gives major weaknesses that can be exploited. Morwel's people do not server Corellon, they acknowledge and respect them and will work with them as is needed, but their loyalty is to their queen (again, as much as that extends).

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

To be fair it's half way between that and what Quickly said.

The Eladrin were always relatively elf and fae like in how they presented, acted, organized themselves.

Elves and fey organize themselves in different ways, and fey in particular vary so much that talking about fey as having organizations as a class is kind of pointless. Elves and fey don't necessarily look the same, either, except that both are usually drawn with pointed ears. Fauns, satyrs, pixies, sprites, dryads -- they're bipedal but otherwise have pretty significant visual differences. And all this assumes eladrin are presenting as dudes and dudettes, not as globes of scintillating rainbow light, pillars of flame or whirlwinds of coruscating snow. And you shouldn't expect a moon elf to behave like a satyr, which shouldn't behave like a dryad. Eladrin don't necessarily behave like any of them, wandering freely doing good in the manner that fits their current whim. They're action-oriented; they find things to do, then do them. And they don't exactly have an internal order, nor do they impose order on what's around them. Morwel's authority is by example, not imposition; she's Queen because she's revered by her peers, not revered because she is Queen, like one of the Celestial Hebdomad.

Eladrin may appear elvish (except when they look like sprites or pixies, like coures, or half-elves, like firre, or nixies, like novieres) when interacting with mortals, though there are pretty clear visual distinctions like the glowing eyes, but they're not elves, and they're not fey. They look the way they do because they reflect the internal nature of Arborea, and any resemblances to mortal creatures are purely coincidental. When encountered on the Prime, they often look like elves because they're required to veil themselves (it's never explained why) and cannot reveal their nature; those who do are confined to Arborea for 1,001 years.

Might have changed in 4E! Certainly has changed in 5E! But in 3.x and earlier, it's pretty unambiguous. Not elves, not fey, not servants of Corellon.

[Rukelnikov]

That may be true starting in 4E, which I know essentially nothing about. In both 2E and 3E, eladrin are neither elves nor fey, and exist separately of Corellon (or any of the other Powers on Arborea, for that matter). Warriors of Heaven and Book of Exalted Deeds are unambiguous about this. There's not a lot of detailed information about them, largely because there's not a lot of information on any plane that isn't Baator, the Abyss, or featured as a location in The Great Modron March, which skips Arborea.

There are plenty of elves on Arborea, especially in 2E, but that's a separate thing.


To be fair it's half way between that and what Quickly said.

The Eladrin were always relatively elf and fae like in how they presented, acted, organized themselves.

But no, while individual Eladrin might serve Corellon the group as a whole's allegiance, such as it is (They are CHAOTIC-Good angels) is to Morwel, the Queen of Stars.

And to be perfectly frank, while it's kind of debatable and never super clear. It's in general shown that Morwel, Asmodeus, Zaphikiel, and to a lesser extent Demogorgon are more than capable of curb stomping Greater Powers. Even things like Orcus and Primus can match Greater Powers but their nature gives major weaknesses that can be exploited. Morwel's people do not server Corellon, they acknowledge and respect them and will work with them as is needed, but their loyalty is to their queen (again, as much as that extends).

I've never really played 4e, so IDK how it is there, but in 3e Eladrins look like elves (in the images and in their descriptions), have features associated with fey like Unearthly Grace and a DR/Cold Iron, most have alternate forms which the original elves had, and while I know their queen is Morwel, they are listed in Complete Divine as the creatures Corellon sends in response to Plannar Ally and the like.

So while, yeah, Eladrins are not technically Elves, or Fey, they are the quasi divine version of them.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I've never really played 4e, so IDK how it is there, but in 3e Eladrins look like elves (in the images and in their descriptions), have features associated with fey like Unearthly Grace and a DR/Cold Iron, most have alternate forms which the original elves had, and while I know their queen is Morwel, they are listed in Complete Divine as the creatures Corellon sends in response to Plannar Ally and the like.

So while, yeah, Eladrins are not technically Elves, or Fey, they are the quasi divine version of them.

It's probably a semantic issue. Corellon sends Eladrin the same way Pelor might send Archons. Which is to say there are Eladrin known to Corellon and some might be interested in helping mortals at his direction. But they don't serve him. (Again, individuals might, but as a whole, no).

Quickly, saying they don't look elven they look like sprites or pixies is... Not sure if you see a huge distinction, but in general I said Elven or Fae and I'll stand by that. Morwel herself looks like an Elf, so does Faerinall, same with Ascodel. Vaeros and Gwynharwyf look less elven but still the pointed ears, lithe, dextrous, etc that I wouldn't be surprised to see people think they're elven.

Also, keep in mind that Corellon isn't an "Elf" in the sense we think of elves, They're a non-binary cloud of potential that takes millions of forms and changes with their mood. The reason they so often look like an "Elf" is that they created the Elves and thus the Elves that revere them paint them in that light.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

they are listed in Complete Divine as the creatures Corellon sends in response to Plannar Ally and the like.

They're on good terms with the elven patheon, and they love excuses for direct action. Plus, presumably, an eladrin directly called to the Material Plane through planar ally isn't subject to the requirement that it veil its form while traveling. Admittedly, that's conjecture, but it seems to fit.



Quickly, saying they don't look elven they look like sprites or pixies is... Not sure if you see a huge distinction, but in general I said Elven or Fae and I'll stand by that. Morwel herself looks like an Elf, so does Faerinall, same with Ascodel. Vaeros and Gwynharwyf look less elven but still the pointed ears, lithe, dextrous, etc that I wouldn't be surprised to see people think they're elven.

Also, keep in mind that Corellon isn't an "Elf" in the sense we think of elves, They're a non-binary cloud of potential that takes millions of forms and changes with their mood. The reason they so often look like an "Elf" is that they created the Elves and thus the Elves that revere them paint them in that light.

Personally, I don't think being thin with pointed ears outweighs having horns and goats' legs, or being 2' tall with wings, or being blue and scaly with gills. If you think otherwise, ok! Warriors of Heaven says some can pass for elves, but also lays out each subtype's features that clearly distinguish them from elves (and, when appropriate, the subtypes that are most often mistaken: bralani and ghaele).

That's how Corellon appears in 5E, but not in 3rd or earlier, so it's not super relevant in a discussion of earlier editions. In 3E, he's given male pronouns and usually appears as an androgynous elf in a sky-blue cloak.

[Rukelnikov]

It's probably a semantic issue. Corellon sends Eladrin the same way Pelor might send Archons. Which is to say there are Eladrin known to Corellon and some might be interested in helping mortals at his direction. But they don't serve him. (Again, individuals might, but as a whole, no).

That's true, serve is not a good term, but again most (maybe all) of the Seldarine have Eladrins listed as their "allies" (which are the creatures they send in response to plannar ally and the like), so while Eladrins are not constrained to the Seldarine, I think its fair to say its more than a few strays that choose to lend their help to the Elven Court when its in need of champions.


Quickly, saying they don't look elven they look like sprites or pixies is... Not sure if you see a huge distinction, but in general I said Elven or Fae and I'll stand by that. Morwel herself looks like an Elf, so does Faerinall, same with Ascodel. Vaeros and Gwynharwyf look less elven but still the pointed ears, lithe, dextrous, etc that I wouldn't be surprised to see people think they're elven.

I just checked this, its not only the images, its also the description, they are all described as elf looking, Morewell "Bears resemblance to an elf", Faerninaal "Handsome elflike man", Gwynharwhif "A short, stocky elf" (Gwyn is not even elf-looking, it just says elf), and all the various generic Eladrin (Bralani, Ghaele, Tulani, etc.) are described in way or another as elf looking.


Also, keep in mind that Corellon isn't an "Elf" in the sense we think of elves, They're a non-binary cloud of potential that takes millions of forms and changes with their mood. The reason they so often look like an "Elf" is that they created the Elves and thus the Elves that revere them paint them in that light.

I know, elves are currently grounded for having taken permanent form, originally all elves, like Corellon, were protean creatures that could freely change form. It's not that I think Eladrin are elves, its the other way round actually, I think Elves are Eladrin.

From a more philosophical point of view, there are 2 kind of petitioners in Arborea, Elves and Bacchae, that alone should tell a lot, petitioners are kinda the essence of the plane taken form, if the essence of the plane Eladrins come from takes the form of Elves or Satyr-like creatures, then it isn't a stretch to say that Elves are Eladrin, or that Eladrin are in essence Elves.


They're on good terms with the elven patheon, and they love excuses for direct action. Plus, presumably, an eladrin directly called to the Material Plane through planar ally isn't subject to the requirement that it veil its form while traveling. Admittedly, that's conjecture, but it seems to fit.

Yeah, they don't "serve" Corellon, but there are enough of them in good terms with the Elven Court to basically act as their Champions.


Personally, I don't think being thin with pointed ears outweighs having horns and goats' legs, or being 2' tall with wings, or being blue and scaly with gills. If you think otherwise, ok! Warriors of Heaven says some can pass for elves, but also lays out each subtype's features that clearly distinguish them from elves (and, when appropriate, the subtypes that are most often mistaken: bralani and ghaele).

As I wrote above, its not just the images, their descriptions mention them looking like elves.


That's how Corellon appears in 5E, but not in 3rd or earlier, so it's not super relevant in a discussion of earlier editions. In 3E, he's given male pronouns and usually appears as an androgynous elf in a sky-blue cloak.

Well, he wasn't look very androgynous when he cut Gruumsh's eye out, but that's ok, Corellon is suppossed to not like staying in the same shape for long (though IDK how much they would consider "long"), so him changing appeareance every edition is not only ok, but actually expected.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Yeah, they don't "serve" Corellon, but there are enough of them in good terms with the Elven Court to basically act as their Champions.

Yes? They don't serve Corellon. That was the original statement, and it's wrong.


As I wrote above, its not just the images, their descriptions mention them looking like elves.

And also explains the bits where they don't. And since we're talking about both 2E and 3E, other source material says that "some" can "pass", and later explains which ones are more likely to. Right there, in the source material. Not ambiguous. And you would not describe a tree as 'resembling a tree'. Eladrin aren't elves in earlier editions. They're not fey in earlier editions either.


Well, he wasn't look very androgynous when he cut Gruumsh's eye out, but that's ok, Corellon is suppossed to not like staying in the same shape for long (though IDK how much they would consider "long"), so him changing appeareance every edition is not only ok, but actually expected.

"Usually appears as an androgynous elf in a sky-blue cloak" is a direct quote from Deities and Demigods. How he looks during one particular action, I don't know or care.

I believe you've misunderstood the relationship between the plane and the petitioners. Souls migrate to either the divine realms of their deities or the planes that most closely match their values and alignment. For most elves, that's Arborea. Souls that go to the Elven Court become petitioners. Others merge with Arborea itself or become planar-aligned creatures. You wouldn't say that, because celestial horses are native to Arborea and elven souls merge with Arborea, that celestial horses are elves. Same deal with eladrin. Elves may help power the plane, but what the plane creates is far larger. Eladrin are the manifestation of the intersection of Chaos and Good.

[Rukelnikov]

And also explains the bits where they don't. And since we're talking about both 2E and 3E, other source material says that "some" can "pass", and later explains which ones are more likely to. Right there, in the source material. Not ambiguous. And you would not describe a tree as 'resembling a tree'. Eladrin aren't elves in earlier editions. They're not fey in earlier editions either.

All my quotes are from 3e books, Monters Manuals, BoED, MoP, all of them describe Eladrin looking like elves, you may not like that being the case.


I believe you've misunderstood the relationship between the plane and the petitioners. Souls migrate to either the divine realms of their deities or the planes that most closely match their values and alignment. For most elves, that's Arborea. Souls that go to the Elven Court become petitioners. Others merge with Arborea itself or become planar-aligned creatures. You wouldn't say that, because celestial horses are native to Arborea and elven souls merge with Arborea, that celestial horses are elves. Same deal with eladrin. Elves may help power the plane, but what the plane creates is far larger. Eladrin are the manifestation of the intersection of Chaos and Good.

I'd expect a celestial horse from arborea to showcase the traits of the plane, resulting in a feyish looking horse. As I said in the previous post it's more Elves are Eladrin than Eladrin are Elves.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

All my quotes are from 3e books, Monters Manuals, BoED, MoP, all of them describe Eladrin looking like elves, you may not like that being the case.

They also describe the points where they don't (it's nice saying that tulani "resemble" elven nobles, but it also says they've got pure yellow-gold skin and bright purple eyes. Shiradi are eleven feet tall with serrated earlobes and hair that moves on its own). Warriors of Heaven, the most comprehensive and detailed source, says they "pass" for elves. And if you look at them with true sight, they appear simultaneously in their bipedal forms and their alternate forms, as pillars of fire, clouds of shattered light, swirling coruscating sand, or spheres of flickering light.


As I said in the previous post it's more Elves are Eladrin than Eladrin are Elves.

Here's your original post:

I don't think I get this, at least since 3e (and 90% sure at least since 2e) Eladrins have been celestials native to Arborea mostly serving Corellon. They are the CG exemplar, they also are elves, feyish, and servants of Corellon.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. Not elves, not fey, not servants of Corellon. What they look like frankly doesn't matter. leShay look like elves too. They very much aren't.

[Rukelnikov]

Wrong, wrong and wrong. Not elves, not fey, not servants of Corellon. What they look like frankly doesn't matter. leShay look like elves too. They very much aren't.

They look like elves, come from a plane that has elves as petitioners, has fey qualities, and Corellon sends Eladrin when his Clerics casts Planar Ally. LeShay very much are ancient elves.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Personally, I don't think being thin with pointed ears outweighs having horns and goats' legs, or being 2' tall with wings, or being blue and scaly with gills. If you think otherwise, ok! Warriors of Heaven says some can pass for elves, but also lays out each subtype's features that clearly distinguish them from elves (and, when appropriate, the subtypes that are most often mistaken: bralani and ghaele).

All of the Court of Stars look full eleven. Then looking at the individual types of Eladrin we know.

Tulani look like elves plane and simple.
Shiradi look like 11' tall winged elves.
Shiere are 6'-7' elves.
Novieres are alternatively defined as looking like Sea Elves or Nixies.
Ghaele are High Elves with a radiant aura
Firre are stocky elves with fire hair and eyes
Coure are the one exception specifically looking more like Sprites and Pixies. But Sprites and Pixies... look like Elves.
Bralani are literally defined as modern day Eladrin, Elves with hair that shifts with their mood and reflects the seasons.



That's how Corellon appears in 5E, but not in 3rd or earlier, so it's not super relevant in a discussion of earlier editions. In 3E, he's given male pronouns and usually appears as an androgynous elf in a sky-blue cloak.

Their having a full on mutable form is new to 5e, their not being gendered or being all genders is not new. To look at the description from Demihuman Deities back in the day.

"As the personification of all things elven, Corellon was at once a warrior and a poet, a mage and a bard, and a male and a female. However, in his love of Araushnee, he settled into the aspect of a male gold elf warrior, a counterpart to her female dark elf artist.[34] While he retained the capacity to assume female or male form, he conventionally appeared as an androgynous male elf possessed of lithe build and preternatural beauty. His avatars stood 7 feet (2.1 meters) tall and displayed exceptional speed, reflexes, and grace, as well as a strength obvious to all."

It literally says they're enby but chose male to make Aruashnee happy. To take it a step further the only times AFTER Arushnee falls that Corellon shows up as pure male is when addressing people with Angharradh who, as the fusion of the three highest elf goddesses, is kind of an epitome of elven femininity thus justifying Corellon deliberately being male to present a full spectrum.

As a solid aside on the elves or not elves. Eladrin aren't "Elves" They don't report to the Seldarine as a whole, they're not mortal. They're literally a physical manifestation of the abstract concept of Pure Selflessness mixed with Pure Personal Free Will.

That said, the entire Seldarine are in Aborea, the realm of the Eladrin. Which came first, chicken or egg? It's possible when the elves took a physical form they copied the Eladrin. But no one will really know for sure because that's a piece of Lore that has no relevant purpose in being explored in official works.

[Millstone85]

That may be true starting in 4E, which I know essentially nothing about.
I've never really played 4e, so IDK how it is thereOh boy... Not only were 4e eladrin from the Feywild but they also replaced high elves.


Eladrin are close cousins to the elves and are occasionally called high elves or gray elves.
The most numerous eladrin are those also known as moon elves or silver elves. [...] The second group of eladrin are markedly less common. They are known as sun elves or gold elves

While I am at it, 4e used the World Axis cosmology:




Astral Sea
(with drifting astral dominions)




Shadowfell
Mortal World
Feywild




Elemental Chaos
(with drifting elemental realms)


Each mortal world (i.e. Nerath, Toril, Athas or Eberron) had its own shadowfell, feywild, astral dominions and elemental realms, with the Athasian Feywild having some dark humor to it as "scholars believe that the total amount of the plane remaining in existence, combining all fragments scattered across Athas, would fit inside the walls of Tyr" (DSCS p17).

No set of planes included an Arborea. The worlds of Nerath and Toril both had an astral dominion called Arvandor but neither gave it a defining alignment. Plus the two worlds disagreed on whether Corellon was "Unaligned" (defined as "not taking a stand" so I guess Neutral) or "Good" (defined as "freedom and kindness" so I guess Chaotic Good).

And so, having no room for alignment exemplars, 4e felt free to use their names on other things. As unrecognizable as the "eladrin" was the "archon", an elemental bound to a set of armor. 5e now calls it an elemental myrmidon. So it can soon have proper archons again? Maybe.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

They look like elves, come from a plane that has elves as petitioners, has fey qualities, and Corellon sends Eladrin when his Clerics casts Planar Ally. LeShay very much are ancient elves.

Looks like =/= is. Every plane might have elf petitioners within an appropriate divine realm. They don't have the Fey type or subtype. And Corellon also sends other Good-aligned outsiders.

LeShay are explicitly not elves per the Epic Level Handbook. One could speculate that they're elf precursors of some sort, but that supposition is not supported in text.



All of the Court of Stars look full eleven. Then looking at the individual types of Eladrin we know.

Without bothering to rehash any of the previous discussion about this, it doesn't matter at all, because they're not elves which was the original statement.

@Millstone: Thanks, that's interesting.

[Rukelnikov]

Looks like =/= is. Every plane might have elf petitioners within an appropriate divine realm. They don't have the Fey type or subtype. And Corellon also sends other Good-aligned outsiders.

LeShay are explicitly not elves per the Epic Level Handbook. One could speculate that they're elf precursors of some sort, but that supposition is not supported in text.




Without bothering to rehash any of the previous discussion about this, it doesn't matter at all, because they're not elves which was the original statement.

@Millstone: Thanks, that's interesting.

Do you consider Elves to be a subgroup of the Eladrin?

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Without bothering to rehash any of the previous discussion about this, it doesn't matter at all, because they're not elves which was the original statement.

No, I said the Eladrin looked very Elf and Fae, then the rest of the conversation flowed. With you arguing they didn't look fae or elven because of varying reasons. No one has argued "They are elves" other than casually from linking how 5e Eladrin are essentially Bralani from me. All I ever argued is that they look elven and are elven in much of their behavior, and Morwel and her court supports that.


Do you consider Elves to be a subgroup of the Eladrin?

I am guessing they most assuredly do not. Eladrin as we're speaking about them in this thread are Physical manifestations of the concept of Chaotic-Good. Much the way Devils are the physical manifestation of Lawful Evil.

Since Corellon is ALSO a physical manifestation of Chaotic Good it is reasonable that the Elves took their appears at the dawn of time from the Eladrin, but nothing firm is stated about this.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

No, I said the Eladrin looked very Elf and Fae, then the rest of the conversation flowed. With you arguing they didn't look fae or elven because of varying reasons. No one has argued "They are elves" other than casually from linking how 5e Eladrin are essentially Bralani from me. All I ever argued is that they look elven and are elven in much of their behavior, and Morwel and her court supports that.

Why do you do this, man? Like what's the point? It's right there in the thread:



See, I just want eladrin to be the CG Exemplar. Not elves, not fey, not Corellon. CG Exemplars. I know that ship has sailed, but damnit I don't care.


I don't think I get this, at least since 3e (and 90% sure at least since 2e) Eladrins have been celestials native to Arborea mostly serving Corellon. They are the CG exemplar, they also are elves, feyish, and servants of Corellon.

That's where this whole stupid discussion started. Your first contribution quoted that post above. What is this horrible gaslighting nonsense about no one saying they're elves?

[Pixel_Kitsune]

That's where this whole stupid discussion started. Your first contribution quoted that post above. What is this horrible gaslighting nonsense about no one saying they're elves?

Yes, I quoted that, then said they were elf and fae like but not elves and the conversation moved on.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Yes, I quoted that, then said they were elf and fae like but not elves and the conversation moved on.

And on and on and around and around as the goalposts recede endlessly into the distance. I've said my piece, none of the responses are interesting or especially thought-provoking, and that's the last time I'll engage with you on this topic. These motte-and-bailey debates happen endlessly on this site, and I should have known better than to get dragged into one.

[Millstone85]

So, um, what I got from all this is that exemplars work best when they have their own leadership, distinct from the gods of mortals.

That water had already been muddled by Lolth, who is both a demon lord and a goddess of the elves, but at least she is just one of many demon lords.

4e's decision to give clerics to the top archdevil was worse, though again no Great Wheel in 4e. So perhaps the worst is 5e keeping a divine Asmodeus in the Great Wheel.

Anyway, if celestial eladrin return, they can't be among Corellon's elves like fey eladrin are.

[Unoriginal]

So perhaps the worst is 5e keeping a divine Asmodeus in the Great Wheel.

I don't have any issue with that, since 5e mentions that a) he didn't start out as a god, he became one well after the Nine Hells got their current setup and b) it's a convenient way for him to get all the power from *every* act devil worship in the multiverse (since the other devils can have cults but can't get power from worship).




Anyway, if celestial eladrin return, they can't be among Corellon's elves like fey eladrin are.

Aren't fey Eladrins the ones who said "eh, no more Corellon's business, the Feywild is better anyway"?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I don't have any issue with that, since 5e mentions that a) he didn't start out as a god, he became one well after the Nine Hells got their current setup and b) it's a convenient way for him to get all the power from *every* act devil worship in the multiverse (since the other devils can have cults but can't get power from worship).


Pre-divinity, Asmodeus could grant spells anyway as the Ruler of Hell, and worship directed to the other eight flowed to him. It's a bit of a weird thing to explain why he could and did, Primus didn't and Demogorgon maybe couldn't, though.

My personal ideal solution would just be to say that clerics of exemplar rulers are receiving their power from the aligned plane directly as clerics of a concept. So a cleric of Asmodeus received power from the Nine Hells as a Cleric of Law and Evil. That ship's sailed, and just making Asmodeus divine is an easier solution as Wizards can't quite figure out how much they want to lean into non-theistic clerics in official material. I'm not sure what the problem it's solving is, but that's ok.

I'm interested to see how divinity is handled for other exemplar rulers (and which ones are even mentioned). I have a hard time imagining Zaphkiel, for example, getting more than a passing mention, and he shouldn't be divine. Demogorgon appears in Out of the Abyss, where he's obviously not divine either. A big part of the Planescape setting is the delicate balance between Law and Chaos, and Good and Evil; is it going to be unbalancing if Asmodeus is divine but none of the other planar rulers are?

[Unoriginal]

I'm interested to see how divinity is handled for other exemplar rulers (and which ones are even mentioned). I have a hard time imagining Zaphkiel, for example, getting more than a passing mention, and he shouldn't be divine. Demogorgon appears in Out of the Abyss, where he's obviously not divine either. A big part of the Planescape setting is the delicate balance between Law and Chaos, and Good and Evil; is it going to be unbalancing if Asmodeus is divine but none of the other planar rulers are?

Being a god doesn't necessarily mean a power boost, in 5e.

It lets you be powered by your worshipers, let you empower some mortals as Clerics, and make you impossible to kill unless all your worshipers are dead or your opponent has a divine spark of their own (and even then coming back is possible/being dead doesn't stop you from doing some things), and in exchange you have to obey a whole lot of rules that vary from worlds to worlds and are tied to the fate of the mortals empowering you.

Primus would have no interest in that power set, as he has no interest in mortal faith or spreading the ideology of Law on an individual level, is so staggeringly powerful what he would get from already existing worshiper would be a drop in the ocean in comparison, and having to distort how Law works depending on each world would be detrimental to his core nature. Furthermore, IIRC if Primus is killed, the next most powerful Modron just becomes Primus, so acquiring divinity would just make him *more* mortal than he is (and also possibly influenced by his worshipers, which is certainly not something he wants).

Asmodeus, on the other hand, gets a whole new array of toys by becoming divine:

-One more way to influence mortals

-A ton of rules he can try turning to his advantages

-A far more restricted pool of creatures theoretically capable of killing him

-(Alternatively to the above) being only killable by non-divine if devil worship is utterly annihilated in the Great Wheel

-A small but appreciably constant stream of power

Demogorgon is the most powerful of the Demon Princes, and he can beat up quite a few deities, but he is not actually a planar ruler. If anything, having an actual ruler would impose Law on the Malevolent Chaos (and Chaotic Malevolence), which would cause more damage than anything. The Abyss might get more dangerous as a result, of course, because its raw might would be directed toward what the ruler wants instead of the current diffuse mess, but pound for pound it would be incredibly weaker.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Don't think it's specified in 5e but I distinctly remember either 2e or 3.X talking about the fact that worshipping exemplars lead to clerics powered by the concept, not the actual beings.

And, as Unoriginal went into in more detail, being a god doesn't give you a leg up over the non gods. Demogorgon is "weak" because he's one of a dozen super demons. In general the Tanar'ri vs Baatezu has always been quantity vs Quality. Demogorgon wouldn't be able to handle Asmodeus in any way shape or form, but if Demogorgon, Orcus and Graz'zt decided to take Asmo down they might succeed.

Similarly Primus has a weakness because it's built to be replaced, it's not mortal from the get go, it's the central cog in the machine and when a cog wears out you replace it. That design structure to it is why it has been killed in the past and why it's not near invincible.

But Morwel, Zaphkiel, Talisid? They're every bit as powerful and frightening as an opponent as Asmodeus. But their nature means they're rarely interfering or causing trouble the way the Lord of the Nine is.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Demogorgon is the most powerful of the Demon Princes, and he can beat up quite a few deities, but he is not actually a planar ruler. If anything, having an actual ruler would impose Law on the Malevolent Chaos (and Chaotic Malevolence), which would cause more damage than anything. The Abyss might get more dangerous as a result, of course, because its raw might would be directed toward what the ruler wants instead of the current diffuse mess, but pound for pound it would be incredibly weaker.

True, I forgot about how the Abyss has changed in 5E. In old canon, Demogorgon's title as the Prince of Demons (not the same thing as a demon prince!) imposes a limitation on all other demons; none can grow beyond his power without first overthrowing him and claiming his title (or Demogorgon vacating the title in some other way, as Mishka did when the vaati sealed him away). In that conception of the planes, the distinction between planer ruler through Law and de facto ruler through a combination of the nature of the plane and personal power is blurrier.

I don't necessarily mean that Asmodeus being a god while Morwel isn't makes Law and Evil unbalanced through strength. A Power with the juice of Asmodeus gains as many disadvantages as he does advantages. It does change his goals, though, and pulls some of his attentions away from extraplanar concerns and onto the Prime.

[Psyren]

The "are Eladrin fey or celestials" thing has always confused me too, and I can definitely see how 4e likely made it worse. I don't have high hopes that 5e Planescape will make it any simpler.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

If the Exemplars get listed I picture one of two likely scenarios:

1: The Eladrin continue to be "Eladrin" and as Exemplars of CG are from the first Elves that didn't keep a specific form and so stayed pure. Corellon, needing not guide or control them, left them alone and they became what they are under Morwel.

2: They'll keep Morwel and the Court and change the name of the creature.

[Unoriginal]

In general the Tanar'ri vs Baatezu has always been quantity vs Quality.

That's not really true, in 5e at least.

Objectively speaking, in term of individuals, Demon armies have both quantity and quality over the Devil armies, and while the non-Asmodeus rulers of the Nine Hells are no slouches, there are many, many Demon Princes who can at least match them in might and skills both.

The Blood War is a stalemate because the Demons are an unfocused storm having to crawl through the fortified bottleneck of Avernus.

[Psyren]

That's not really true, in 5e at least.

Objectively speaking, in term of individuals, Demon armies have both quantity and quality over the Devil armies, and while the non-Asmodeus rulers of the Nine Hells are no slouches, there are many, many Demon Princes who can at least match them in might and skills both.

The Blood War is a stalemate because the Demons are an unfocused storm having to crawl through the fortified bottleneck of Avernus.

I don't think the last part is at odds with saying they're lower quality. Yes, both individually and collectively the demons might be stronger - but if they spend so much time getting in their own way or not being able to properly utilize tactics or terrain, then ultimately the devils can be seen as having the better forces/army.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I think a lot of that perception occurs based on the idea of matching "Similar" creatures in the MM. Like seeing that Pit Fiend is a CR 11 vs the Balor's CR 19 But First, the Balor just rages and goes where as the Pit Fiend fights smarter, set up traps, have groups working in tactical unison.

So I can see the image of "No, Baatezu don't have quality over quantity" But I think we're underestimating intelligence and tactics vs individual power.

[Unoriginal]

I don't think the last part is at odds with saying they're lower quality. Yes, both individually and collectively the demons might be stronger - but if they spend so much time getting in their own way or not being able to properly utilize tactics or terrain, then ultimately the devils can be seen as having the better forces/army.


I think a lot of that perception occurs based on the idea of matching "Similar" creatures in the MM. Like seeing that Pit Fiend is a CR 11 vs the Balor's CR 19 But First, the Balor just rages and goes where as the Pit Fiend fights smarter, set up traps, have groups working in tactical unison.

So I can see the image of "No, Baatezu don't have quality over quantity" But I think we're underestimating intelligence and tactics vs individual power.

Devils definitively have the edge on both tactics and strategy. And it's true that if a Demon can tear their Devil counterpart apart in an 1 vs 1 fight, the Devil will do their best to manoeuvre to make sure it is not a 1 vs 1 fight.

Still, I don't think that the Devils' greater discipline is enough to state that they have the better army.

If the situation was reversed and it was the Devil armies having to cross the Styx to invade a layer of the Abyss, the Devils would also face the difficulty of trying to dislodge enemies on their home turf.

I also contest the idea that a Balor "just rages and goes". A Pit Fiend (which I have to point out is CR 20, not 11) is somewhat smarter, wiser and more charismatic than the Balor, but the Balor is still a genius on par with the greatest (non-magically boosted) mortal minds, and that transpires in how they fight too.

Furthermore, let's not forget that Devils are just as much hindered by their lawful evilness than Demons are by their chaotic evilness. Demons may not be able to form a decent battle formation, or retreat properly when things go wrong, or care about about leadership beyond what the leader can impose on any Demon in range, but Devils have to worry about things like one officier refusing to send in reinforcement because a particular unit being destroyed is helpful to a scheme of theirs, or a strategist favoring a plan that makes them look more impressive to the higher-ups over one that is less costly in allied casualties, or political tensions between two Archdukes resulting in different parts of the army being given conflicting orders.

[Brookshw]

Keep in mind that both the celestials and Loth's prop up the war, it's not purely a devil vs. demon situation.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

And the Yugoloth angle is significantly important too for all that 5e kind of ignores it.

I almost think that 5e writing off the General of Genehena and the Oinoloths as insignificant or small players is a Lore choice to specifically show how much pull and manipulation the Yugoloths can bring to bare.

And to the second point Brooksh brought up, the Celestials, at least the Archons, actively encourage the war to continue whenever possible. I don't know that the Guardinals do and the Eladrin have their own war with the Abyss going on thanks to Pale Night's machinations and Ascodel's failure.

Though I do look at Androlynne and wonder if it's a sign of the Abyss' greatest Failure. They managed, through their efforts towards evil, to create a Celestial Foothold 471 layers down the Abyss.... The ramifications of this if the Eladrin ever brought in Archon or Guardinal help is... interesting.

But even aside from that, the 2e Aasimon are shown to be devastating when they actually, you know, act. Considering the Basic Foot soldier of their ranks is an 8th level Cleric who can cast Shapechange at will with no CR restriction, though they keep their own HP.

[Brookshw]

And the Yugoloth angle is significantly important too for all that 5e kind of ignores it.

I almost think that 5e writing off the General of Genehena and the Oinoloths as insignificant or small players is a Lore choice to specifically show how much pull and manipulation the Yugoloths can bring to bare. I blame 3e, the Loth's were interesting up until then. I would love to see a return of the Baernaloth's, even a few of them, to the planar stage; imo they should be done up as somewhere along the lines of demon lords rather than the poor showing they had in previous editions, I guess in some ways their place was usurped by Obyriths.


Though I do look at Androlynne and wonder if it's a sign of the Abyss' greatest Failure. They managed, through their efforts towards evil, to create a Celestial Foothold 471 layers down the Abyss.... The ramifications of this if the Eladrin ever brought in Archon or Guardinal help is... interesting. Ehh,...the celestials learned the hard way not to stick their noses too far into the blood war, and trying to take on the Abyss I can't imagine ending well for them, if for no better reason than it would empower the devils (not to mention the infighting that would eventually emerge in the celestial ranks).

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I blame 3e, the Loth's were interesting up until then. I would love to see a return of the Baernaloth's, even a few of them, to the planar stage; imo they should be done up as somewhere along the lines of demon lords rather than the poor showing they had in previous editions, I guess in some ways their place was usurped by Obyriths.

I just hope Shemeska makes a return... She continues to have a presence in my campaigns.


Ehh,...the celestials learned the hard way not to stick their noses too far into the blood war, and trying to take on the Abyss I can't imagine ending well for them, if for no better reason than it would empower the devils (not to mention the infighting that would eventually emerge in the celestial ranks).

It's more that the Eladrin are a combination of too proud to admit the screw up and too concerned for the lives of the children to look at the situation from a place of benefit.

But being honest, it's not even like "Oh, the Celestials have a portal deep into the Abyss". It's "Oh, our clever trap for Eladrin children responded in a frigging CG City in the middle of Pale Night's domain that keeps spontaneously summoning Celestials from all over to defend it."

If the Archons learned about it there would be some interesting activities. Carefully balanced because too much good too fact would just cause the layer to fall upward into Aborea.

[Millstone85]

Aren't fey Eladrins the ones who said "eh, no more Corellon's business, the Feywild is better anyway"?
Although eladrin have the closest connection to Corellon because of their ancestry, they are alone among elves in feeling little affinity for Arvandor. Eladrin don't long to end their cycle of rebirth and rejoin Corellon, but rather to meld with the Feywild when they are reincarnated. They believe that an eladrin who excels in life throughout a series of incarnations can eventually come back as a member of the Seelie or Unseelie court or, in extreme cases, even as an archfey.In short, yes. However, I am not sure it is enough of a disconnect.

If I understand correctly, dead eladrin can still get a temporary afterlife in Arvandor before being reincarnated. They just hope it will be in the Feywild again and as fey eladrin rather than humanoid eladrin or, worse, a different type of elf. Fey eladrin may not be ageless or that hard to kill, and fey are welcome in Arvandor, so they are not truly out until they become archfey. And even then, it doesn't mean they wouldn't still recognize Corellon as their god. They may even think him pleased by their regained independence and freedom of form.

Now, this is all part of MToF lore which plays heavily on Lolth's revolt and Corellon being angry with elves in general and with dark elves in particular. WotC has since had a moral crisis and, I believe, stopped printing that book as well as VGtM, replacing both with MotM. Here it just says eladrin are elves of the Feywild, some of which count as humanoid and others as fey.


My personal ideal solution would just be to say that clerics of exemplar rulers are receiving their power from the aligned plane directly as clerics of a concept. So a cleric of Asmodeus received power from the Nine Hells as a Cleric of Law and Evil. That ship's sailed, and just making Asmodeus divine is an easier solution as Wizards can't quite figure out how much they want to lean into non-theistic clerics in official material. I'm not sure what the problem it's solving is, but that's ok.
Don't think it's specified in 5e but I distinctly remember either 2e or 3.X talking about the fact that worshipping exemplars lead to clerics powered by the concept, not the actual beings.That would be a great piece of lore, that may or may not work with my headcanon on D&D divinity.

I consider that the gods too are largely personifications, most clearly when they go by titles like "god of war", but can't actually use all the faith that mortals unknowingly put in the concepts themselves. What they do have is the ability to help, hinder or just let happen a cleric's access to such pools of divine power. The gods also gather petitioners to shape these pools into astral dominions, celestial realms and other afterlives that the gods then hold considerable influence over. This is why a god may not be able to fight with the strength of a billion clerics despite having at least as many to their name across the universe. This is also why clerics of an ideal are rare, especially on worlds like Toril where the gods jealously defend their portfolios.

As personifications of the big four that give the Great Wheel its shape, exemplars could be prevented from being supergods by the feeling of being caught in a storm. They would also have a hard time becoming personifications of something more manageable. Meanwhile, mortals who wishes to tap directly into the celestial and fiendish expanses would have to take such precautions that the art would often be equated to arcane spellcasting.

Alternatively, the true lead examplars are much more alien that the ones mortals normally interact with, and they usually don't let the latter play at divinity. For example, Primus is indeed the central cog of a big machine, but it is the machine in its totality that decides who can or can't use the power of Law.

[Joe the Rat]

Something to keep in mind is that Clerichood is primarily a Power-sided choice - That priesthood and clerichood overlap, but are separate lines. It's really only in 5E boogaloo that all priests (acolytes) have some divine magic.
This makes Ideal or Exemplar-fueled clerics particularly interesting in that they are driving the empowerment process backwards (more akin to the Paladin's Oath), tapping into the Concept behind the Powers. (sidenote: In Pathfinder, this is how Oracles work.)

Going back to Old Lore (1st and 2nd edition), Clerics could be somewhat self-propelled, Their lowest level spells could be fueled by their faith alone, which only is an issue when they are cut off from their Power due to outside inflence (planar weirdness, ususally). See also the Kuo-Toa. And the entire point of the Factions - Belief shapes Reality.

Aligning the concepts, we still have the potential of unasked clerics ("You. You're my Hand now."), but also of faith driving the question of power, and the Power responding (you want to be a cleric, and have the right stuff, and your object of worship says "yeah, sure."*). With the Concept, this becomes a bigger push on the side of the to-be cleric, but it is less asking and more aligning oneself to the Concept. Believe in and embody Life (or Trickery, or the Tempest), and tap into the concept at that fundamental level**. You have a much greater need to adhere to your beliefs, since Concepts don't have the wiggle room of making decisions that Powers have. This does have implications in settings (The FR Gods really prefer that one of their names is attached to divine works and beliefs, suggesting that the organized temples might be somewhat hostile to non-union miracle workers. Or the existence of a "Temple of X" organization to raise new acolytes), and may not fit every game, but definitely has a place in the Cosmology toolbox.

* - arguably this further muddies the waters between Clerics and Warlocks - "How big is your Sugar Daddy" is not a good distinguishing trait.

** - That or I need to stop reading Cultivation novels.

[Unoriginal]

You know, thinking about it, I have to ammend what I said earlier.

While Devils are amazing at tactics, they are, as a rule, hella bad at strategy in 5e.

Tactics is "how we fight", operations is "where we fight and howwe make that fight happen here", and strategy is "why we fight", as in "is it a good idea to do this, what are the consequences?".

All of 5e's lore on the question paints the Nine Hells as an openly ultra-expentionist power which will only be satisfiedby the absorbtion or destruction of the rest of reality. In other words, the only reason why they are not actively warring against the whole cosmos at once is because they're mostly contained within their territory by the never-ending tides of the Abyss. And even on this smaller scale, they regularly make strategic listakes (ex: changing the overseeing general for petty reasons and forcing restructuration).

Asmodeus is a genius, a beyond amazing liar and many other things, but he just cannot resist reminding everyone that any help given to Hell is an help given to a future with Hell's boot firmly on your face.

[Millstone85]

All of 5e's lore on the question paints the Nine Hells as an openly ultra-expentionist power which will only be satisfied by the absorbtion or destruction of the rest of reality. In other words, the only reason why they are not actively warring against the whole cosmos at once is because they're mostly contained within their territory by the never-ending tides of the Abyss. Asmodeus would convince you that you got it backward. The Abyss is an ever-hungry maw that would devour the rest of reality then consume itself into oblivion. Demons are just starting with the hardest bit, the Nine Hells, knowing everything else will easily be theirs afterward.

The General of Gehenna would then convince you that yugoloths are saving everyone by keeping the Nine Hells and the Abyss in a stalemate. And since they are profiting off the Blood War, you can trust them.

[Unoriginal]

Asmodeus would convince you that you got it backward. The Abyss is an ever-hungry maw that would devour the rest of reality then consume itself into oblivion. Demons are just starting with the hardest bit, the Nine Hells, knowing everything else will easily be theirs afterward.

Not wrong in itself but it won't change the fact that the Demons are the one thing keeping the Devils from being a war threat to everyone else (although I'd say the Abyss propagate rather than consume).

If you say "the only reason why X didn't murder me is because Y murdered them first", pointing out how Y is a murderer and would come to you if given the chance doesn't change the fact X was trying to murder you in the first place.



The General of Gehenna would then convince you that yugoloths are saving everyone by keeping the Nine Hells and the Abyss in a stalemate. And since they are profiting off the Blood War, you can trust them.

I mean, you can trust that no one has the funds to make the Yugoloths as a whole want to end the war one way or another. But there is certainly many ones who has the funds to make *some* of the Yugoloths want to end the war one way or another.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Not wrong in itself but it won't change the fact that the Demons are the one thing keeping the Devils from being a war threat to everyone else (although I'd say the Abyss propagate rather than consume).

I do want to point out that I think it's often overstated how much of a threat the Abyss or the Nine Hells would actually be.

The issue is not that they'd sweep out and win, though that is often painted in the image, the issue is that they'd cause who knows how much devastation and death to innocents and weaker creatures in the process.

Being perfectly clear, the armies of the three main heavens are... Frightening to be perfectly honest. Their selflessness is largely what keeps them from doing things. They don't want to control or enslave or see death of billions, so they act more subtly. But looking at the whole.

You can't attack Celestia, showing up dumps you in an ocean of Holy Water populated by Celestial Dragons that make the regular ones seem tame. Then you hit the beaches and run straight into armies of Archons, the weakest ones are essentially turret batteries blasting radiant energy from significant distances. You're going up an ocean that's burning you, getting swatted by great wyrms to hit abeach in the face of endless holy fire and THEN you might get to the real defenses. And if they FINALLY push through all that they'll met Barachiel, who robs them of all their senses and traps them in a vision of whatever's at the top of the mountain, meanwhile he's already summoned the others who are.. Well, Raziel makes Zariel seem like a kitten and would likely be a match one on one for most Lords of the Nine and Demon Princes. Then there's the fact that, much like Asmodeus might not be the horned guy smiling at you, he might be some who knows how big serpent still healing it's wounds down in the cracks of Nessus. Zaphkiel might not be the shining gold figure, it might be, or serves the, serpent that threw Asmodeus down there in the first place.

I already talked about the Eladrin, they're not unified like Archons. But even in that freedom and disunity... I mentioned Androlynne earlier. The Abyss managed to steal 1000 Eladrin Children, a "triumph" of trickery and a strike against good. These children were trapped 400+ layers down the Abyss and set to be tortured endlessly. Two issues with that though. First and more significantly, this wasn't the Tanar'ri, this was the older, nastier Obyriths which the Eladrin nearly wiped out in said war. Second, the trapped eladrin were supposedly unreachable. Except their very presence forced open celestial portals and now that layer is swarming with armies of foo creatures, Ki-Rin, Couatls, Hollyphants, Moondogs, etc. The Eladrin have no unified war effort. They simply needed help and good will always come if it can.

No, the Celestials have no fear of the Devils or Demons directly. What they fear is what the devils and demons would do to mortal lives and worlds on the march there and the devastation it would cause.

[Unoriginal]

I do want to point out that I think it's often overstated how much of a threat the Abyss or the Nine Hells would actually be.

The issue is not that they'd sweep out and win, though that is often painted in the image, the issue is that they'd cause who knows how much devastation and death to innocents and weaker creatures in the process.

Being perfectly clear, the armies of the three main heavens are... Frightening to be perfectly honest. Their selflessness is largely what keeps them from doing things. They don't want to control or enslave or see death of billions, so they act more subtly. But looking at the whole.

You can't attack Celestia, showing up dumps you in an ocean of Holy Water populated by Celestial Dragons that make the regular ones seem tame. Then you hit the beaches and run straight into armies of Archons, the weakest ones are essentially turret batteries blasting radiant energy from significant distances. You're going up an ocean that's burning you, getting swatted by great wyrms to hit abeach in the face of endless holy fire and THEN you might get to the real defenses. And if they FINALLY push through all that they'll met Barachiel, who robs them of all their senses and traps them in a vision of whatever's at the top of the mountain, meanwhile he's already summoned the others who are.. Well, Raziel makes Zariel seem like a kitten and would likely be a match one on one for most Lords of the Nine and Demon Princes. Then there's the fact that, much like Asmodeus might not be the horned guy smiling at you, he might be some who knows how big serpent still healing it's wounds down in the cracks of Nessus. Zaphkiel might not be the shining gold figure, it might be, or serves the, serpent that threw Asmodeus down there in the first place.

I already talked about the Eladrin, they're not unified like Archons. But even in that freedom and disunity... I mentioned Androlynne earlier. The Abyss managed to steal 1000 Eladrin Children, a "triumph" of trickery and a strike against good. These children were trapped 400+ layers down the Abyss and set to be tortured endlessly. Two issues with that though. First and more significantly, this wasn't the Tanar'ri, this was the older, nastier Obyriths which the Eladrin nearly wiped out in said war. Second, the trapped eladrin were supposedly unreachable. Except their very presence forced open celestial portals and now that layer is swarming with armies of foo creatures, Ki-Rin, Couatls, Hollyphants, Moondogs, etc. The Eladrin have no unified war effort. They simply needed help and good will always come if it can.

No, the Celestials have no fear of the Devils or Demons directly. What they fear is what the devils and demons would do to mortal lives and worlds on the march there and the devastation it would cause.

Well, the fear isn't that the Abyss or the Hells stop attacking each other and pick fights with other targets, the fear is that the Abyss conquers the Hells or the Hells conquer the Abyss, resulting in something that has the raw power of the Abyss and the surgeon-like manner to apply it of the Hells.

It's not the end of the Blood War that's scary, it's the theoretical assimilation of the defeated plane into the victorious one.

All in all, if attacked in an 1 vs 1, each of the good planes, the neutral planes and even the rest of the evil planes would likely kick the Abyss's and the Hells' asses.

[Brookshw]

I do want to point out that I think it's often overstated how much of a threat the Abyss or the Nine Hells would actually be.

The issue is not that they'd sweep out and win, though that is often painted in the image, the issue is that they'd cause who knows how much devastation and death to innocents and weaker creatures in the process.

Being perfectly clear, the armies of the three main heavens are... Frightening to be perfectly honest. Their selflessness is largely what keeps them from doing things. They don't want to control or enslave or see death of billions, so they act more subtly. But looking at the whole.

You can't attack Celestia, showing up dumps you in an ocean of Holy Water populated by Celestial Dragons that make the regular ones seem tame. Then you hit the beaches and run straight into armies of Archons, the weakest ones are essentially turret batteries blasting radiant energy from significant distances. You're going up an ocean that's burning you, getting swatted by great wyrms to hit abeach in the face of endless holy fire and THEN you might get to the real defenses. And if they FINALLY push through all that they'll met Barachiel, who robs them of all their senses and traps them in a vision of whatever's at the top of the mountain, meanwhile he's already summoned the others who are.. Well, Raziel makes Zariel seem like a kitten and would likely be a match one on one for most Lords of the Nine and Demon Princes. Then there's the fact that, much like Asmodeus might not be the horned guy smiling at you, he might be some who knows how big serpent still healing it's wounds down in the cracks of Nessus. Zaphkiel might not be the shining gold figure, it might be, or serves the, serpent that threw Asmodeus down there in the first place.

I already talked about the Eladrin, they're not unified like Archons. But even in that freedom and disunity... I mentioned Androlynne earlier. The Abyss managed to steal 1000 Eladrin Children, a "triumph" of trickery and a strike against good. These children were trapped 400+ layers down the Abyss and set to be tortured endlessly. Two issues with that though. First and more significantly, this wasn't the Tanar'ri, this was the older, nastier Obyriths which the Eladrin nearly wiped out in said war. Second, the trapped eladrin were supposedly unreachable. Except their very presence forced open celestial portals and now that layer is swarming with armies of foo creatures, Ki-Rin, Couatls, Hollyphants, Moondogs, etc. The Eladrin have no unified war effort. They simply needed help and good will always come if it can.

No, the Celestials have no fear of the Devils or Demons directly. What they fear is what the devils and demons would do to mortal lives and worlds on the march there and the devastation it would cause.

Color me skeptical given that when the celestial's tried to get serious and involve themselves (yes, they had all the trappings then as they do now), the blood war paused so that the Big E sides could and did devastate the Big G. I'm not so sure why you think it would necessarily go a different way. What's worse is that the celestial's getting serious is exactly the type of situation that leads to their corruption and fall themselves, so there's the risk of losing even if they were somehow winning. That's not to say Big G isn't powerful in its own way, but the extent of that power is another matter. There's no real means of comparison here other than what the lore offers us, and a tiny outpost isn't much to go on (personal power means basically nothing, heck, the hell's have an entire legion where each member can toss around a Wish).

As to the twin serpents, I'll be curious to see if that gets revived because it sure seems like they chucked it with 3e and beyond. Heck, the whole thing with the blood war is a bit of a crap shoot as we don't know which edition they'll use as a basis, and the editions certainly aren't consistent with one another.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Color me skeptical given that when the celestial's tried to get serious and involve themselves (yes, they had all the trappings then as they do now), the blood war paused so that the Big E sides could and did devastate the Big G.

Which lore is that? I'm interested to research. The only in canon examples of the Big G's getting directly involved in a War I'm aware of is a 2e reference to devils taking on an army of Aasimon and the Aasimon glassed the mountain the devil army was on. Other than that it's just the Eladrin vs the Obyrith that, while also having the Tanar'ri revolting, was a curb stomp with Androlynne's issue being the only sort of victory and achieved by the only Obyrith that's still alive as far


There's no real means of comparison here other than what the lore offers us, and a tiny outpost isn't much to go on (personal power means basically nothing, heck, the hell's have an entire legion where each member can toss around a Wish).

I didn't mention a tiny outpost, I mentioned the first layer of Celestia and then I mentioned half of a layer of the abyss. Androlynne isn't a tiny outpost, half of it is held by Celestials who aren't there to win or triumph or defeat evil, they're purely there defensively.


As to the twin serpents, I'll be curious to see if that gets revived because it sure seems like they chucked it with 3e and beyond. Heck, the whole thing with the blood war is a bit of a crap shoot as we don't know which edition they'll use as a basis, and the editions certainly aren't consistent with one another.

Fair, and I wasn't claiming canon, just going off the overall lore available. Either way though, Asmodeus ended up thrown into Nessus. Something threw him.

[Brookshw]

Which lore is that? I'm interested to research. The only in canon examples of the Big G's getting directly involved in a War I'm aware of is a 2e reference to devils taking on an army of Aasimon and the Aasimon glassed the mountain the devil army was on. Other than that it's just the Eladrin vs the Obyrith that, while also having the Tanar'ri revolting, was a curb stomp with Androlynne's issue being the only sort of victory and achieved by the only Obyrith that's still alive as far Oh, sure, Hellbound, Dark of the War booklet, page 12, an army of millions (plural) or Archons and Aasimon try to get involved, 3000 survive, it was over in a week.




I didn't mention a tiny outpost, I mentioned the first layer of Celestia and then I mentioned half of a layer of the abyss. Androlynne isn't a tiny outpost, half of it is held by Celestials who aren't there to win or triumph or defeat evil, they're purely there defensively. I was just referring to the Androlynne portion, I just don't find it very significant. The lore around that layer isn't all that consistent, like, originally it wasn't Pale Nights layer, but then later it was? It was a 3e invention/retcon, 2e instances of Archons diving into the Abyss ended up with a lot of corrupted Archons.




Fair, and I wasn't claiming canon, just going off the overall lore available. Either way though, Asmodeus ended up thrown into Nessus. Something threw him. Yeah, he fell somehow, no argument there (unless we go back to 1e), by what force or forces is a giant question mark overall, though there are lots of specific answers that stop being true when another writer gets involved. Its one of the annoying parts of planar lore because everything's true right up until it isn't.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Oh, sure, Hellbound, Dark of the War booklet, page 12, an army of millions (plural) or Archons and Aasimon try to get involved, 3000 survive, it was over in a week.

Thank you, hadnt added that to my collection, did so. Read the section (and more, but not relevent here). Just a few points to debate though. First, the info comes from In Game Yugoloth sources, the truthfulness and veracity is questionable. It says an Army of millions of "Celestials" and describes them entirely in the image of generic angels, which most celestials aren't. So that suggests it was likely an Archon army more than anything. It also says they descended INTO the lower planes and massacred without stop or real resistance for a year. Then when all sides turned on them they had to withdraw and many didn't make it out. If I had to guess, this is probably Triel's folly?

But knowing the author and reading the actual words, it looks like a large force of Archons attacked Hell, murdered indiscriminately for a year before then having to retreat. That's not exactly the same as an intelligent placement or defense of a place that's not the actual lower planes. Much in the same way I pointed out the utter insanity of attacking Mount Celestia I would give a similar analysis of trying to get through Dis. Avernus I'm always amused and somewhat confused that it's managed to stay in Baator instead of sliding into Hades.

[Unoriginal]

I prefer the version that Asmodeus is the first of the lawful evil rather than a fallen something.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I prefer the version that Asmodeus is the first of the lawful evil rather than a fallen something.

I should specify, not fallen as in once good and fell to evil, that's it's own story and it's one Asmodeus tells so I doubt it's truth.

No, the fall is an old lore that states the 9 hells used to be the 7 hells. Asmodeus was always the chief LE and there's a LG counterpart out there. They fought and his sister metaphysically choke slammed him so hard into the 7 hells that he cratered 2 more into existence and his true form is in the ravines of Nessus still healing. Whatever his Sister is, it either commands or manifests as an avatar the first Archon Zaphkiel the Watcher.

[Brookshw]

Thank you, hadnt added that to my collection, did so. Read the section (and more, but not relevent here). Just a few points to debate though. First, the info comes from In Game Yugoloth sources, the truthfulness and veracity is questionable. It says an Army of millions of "Celestials" and describes them entirely in the image of generic angels, which most celestials aren't. So that suggests it was likely an Archon army more than anything. It also says they descended INTO the lower planes and massacred without stop or real resistance for a year. Then when all sides turned on them they had to withdraw and many didn't make it out. If I had to guess, this is probably Triel's folly?

But knowing the author and reading the actual words, it looks like a large force of Archons attacked Hell, murdered indiscriminately for a year before then having to retreat. That's not exactly the same as an intelligent placement or defense of a place that's not the actual lower planes. Much in the same way I pointed out the utter insanity of attacking Mount Celestia I would give a similar analysis of trying to get through Dis. Avernus I'm always amused and somewhat confused that it's managed to stay in Baator instead of sliding into Hades.

Pretty much all PS books are from someone's point of view, if that disqualifies the book from being treated as canon, get ready to shrink your connection, but you're not wrong it's open to interpretation as to whether the Loth's may have embellished (naturally, they later claim the keep the most honest histories). The celestials are specifically named as Archons and Aasimon. Note, they didn't "murder indiscriminately" for a year, they fought, and as soon as they actually faced both sides, it was over in a week. The lessons the celestials walk away with was "okay, not trying that again".

Celestia has strongholds in places, but it's not exactly a fortress overall, hit a stronghold, sure, it'll be a fight, but that doesn't mean the defenders would win, most of celestial are just petitioners whereas the lower planes will just convert you to a demon and throw you to the meat grinder.

Anyway, this is mostly theoretical, the whole point of the blood war, at least the celestials propping it up, is to prevent them ever having to find out (including letting innocents be 'sacrificed' to avoid that coming to pass).

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Pretty much all PS books are from someone's point of view, if that disqualifies the book from being treated as canon, get ready to shrink your connection, but you're not wrong it's open to interpretation as to whether the Loth's may have embellished (naturally, they later claim the keep the most honest histories).

Oh, I know, I appreciate it. I'm also not doubting the key notes. An army of Celestials descended to the Lower Planes, fought for a year, then were driven back. My doubts are on the "Millions" to start with, the level of route they faced, the lack of mention of exactly how far IN they got. Like, if the Archons pushed down to say the fifth or sixth layer of hell and then everything closed behind them, yeah, almost wiped out escaping makes sense. But there's just too much not mentioned that deliberately paints the idea that the Celestials are outmatched. which never seems to actually happen in known lore, only in the before times as told by the NE daemons.


The celestials are specifically named as Archons and Aasimon. Note, they didn't "murder indiscriminately" for a year, they fought, and as soon as they actually faced both sides, it was over in a week. The lessons the celestials walk away with was "okay, not trying that again".

Poor wording on my part for the Murder line, my apologies. And yeah, missed the first read but they specify Archons and Aasimon. So that's not the Celestials, that's the LG Celestials acting alone with a comparative handful of Aasimon (Remember, the Aasimon are essentially the artificial Celestials, the Good Angels that serve gods, not the bastions of the concept of goodness). And yeah, I would never argue that the Archons alone could handle the Tanar'ri AND the Baatezu. But the Archons Alone could handle them each individually, if with too great a cost to be valuable. The Eladrin already proved they could with the Tanari'ri's predecessors.


Celestia has strongholds in places, but it's not exactly a fortress overall, hit a stronghold, sure, it'll be a fight, but that doesn't mean the defenders would win, most of celestial are just petitioners whereas the lower planes will just convert you to a demon and throw you to the meat grinder.

Celestia is a fortress when it comes to repelling evil. There's no way in for the forces of evil that doesn't drop them in the Ocean of Holy Water to start, there's no ability to force through the first layer before Barachiel could call for help if he deemed help necessary, and nothing short of a Demon Prince of Lord of the Nine is going to stand up to the Hebdomad, let alone the Archon armies. I'm not looking at it as a best case scenario but as an all out could it even work. Similarly, if we want to be real honest, barring Demon Prince involvement I'm fairly sure Zariel could stand by herself at the entrance to Dis and hold back the tide, but then she'd never do anything else.


Anyway, this is mostly theoretical, the whole point of the blood war, at least the celestials propping it up, is to prevent them ever having to find out (including letting innocents be 'sacrificed' to avoid that coming to pass).

Where we disagree is that I don't think the Celestials are super concerned about "What if evil has a single presence to push outward, will we be overwhelmed" Beings of Pure Selflessness don't think like that. I think they want the Blood War to go on forever because it keeps most of the devastation away from mortals and innocents that'd get rolled over in the process if it spread "upward".

[Brookshw]

Oh, I know, I appreciate it. I'm also not doubting the key notes. An army of Celestials descended to the Lower Planes, fought for a year, then were driven back. My doubts are on the "Millions" to start with, the level of route they faced, the lack of mention of exactly how far IN they got. Like, if the Archons pushed down to say the fifth or sixth layer of hell and then everything closed behind them, yeah, almost wiped out escaping makes sense. But there's just too much not mentioned that deliberately paints the idea that the Celestials are outmatched. which never seems to actually happen in known lore, only in the before times as told by the NE daemons. I agree there's a big question mark around it, but proposing they got to the 5th or 6th layer sounds like a strong bias, nothing indicates they got that far, and doing so would probably limit them to fighting devils, whereas they got smacked by both sides. As to the last sentence, we kinda do know though, we just need to step back further in the timeline and outside of Planescape to the war between law and chaos (dovetailing into your subsequent comment nicely). When the forces of law and chaos lined up to duke it out, the CG forces stayed out of it once they realized what Obyriths and demons were up to, and it became a war between LE and LG vs. CE. The lead on the L side, the Vaati*, lost worlds and were nearly annihilated right? They went from an empire spanning worlds (no idea what that in terms of population count, if anything like our world, maybe 20 - 30 billion? Who knows, there was never a real count of how many worlds or what the population was per) down to the population that fit into a tiny secluded vale (so, what, maybe a few thousand?). And that was with the support of most of the G factions (or what would have become the G factions? it's about the time that E and G became a thing in the cosmology). I'd call that a big loss for good (at least the lawful part of it), even with LE's help, they couldn't defeat the Obyriths and demons, and had to settle for a hail mary with the rod of law and then run off to leave LE to fight it out with CE. Granted, yes, other forces weren't involved on the G side, but neither were forces on the E side.

*just for comparison, your low end Vaati was a bit more powerful than a 5th level character or thereabouts, with the average for them being somewhere around a 10th-11th level character. It's not a great comparison across editions but that's about where I think we'd call them now.




Poor wording on my part for the Murder line, my apologies. And yeah, missed the first read but they specify Archons and Aasimon. So that's not the Celestials, that's the LG Celestials acting alone with a comparative handful of Aasimon (Remember, the Aasimon are essentially the artificial Celestials, the Good Angels that serve gods, not the bastions of the concept of goodness). And yeah, I would never argue that the Archons alone could handle the Tanar'ri AND the Baatezu. But the Archons Alone could handle them each individually, if with too great a cost to be valuable. The Eladrin already proved they could with the Tanari'ri's predecessors. Archon's couldn't handle CE with LE's and others help. As to Eladrin, this is one of those things that drifts across editions, personally, no, I don't think it is well established in the lore that Eladrin can handle the Obyriths.




Celestia is a fortress when it comes to repelling evil. There's no way in for the forces of evil that doesn't drop them in the Ocean of Holy Water to start, there's no ability to force through the first layer before Barachiel could call for help if he deemed help necessary, and nothing short of a Demon Prince of Lord of the Nine is going to stand up to the Hebdomad, let alone the Archon armies. I'm not looking at it as a best case scenario but as an all out could it even work. Similarly, if we want to be real honest, barring Demon Prince involvement I'm fairly sure Zariel could stand by herself at the entrance to Dis and hold back the tide, but then she'd never do anything else.



Where we disagree is that I don't think the Celestials are super concerned about "What if evil has a single presence to push outward, will we be overwhelmed" Beings of Pure Selflessness don't think like that. I think they want the Blood War to go on forever because it keeps most of the devastation away from mortals and innocents that'd get rolled over in the process if it spread "upward".

All depends what editions/sources you want to look at, in PS nothing stopped you from conjuring/gating in evil creatures to Celestia, you can always stroll along the World Tree or the Infinite Staircase to get there, go through Excelsior (though you'd need to fly to avoid the ocean dip you mention), naturally occurring portals, etc. I don't think we're really disagreeing as much as weighing the Celestials differently, in strength and what their "lose condition" is, in my eyes, if the upper planes turn into war zones, they've already lost, strength wise, well, I don't think they're weak, but don't think they're the heavies you view them as, the Vaati were plenty heavy and got annihilated trying to stop just one faction of Chaos, and that was with support.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I agree there's a big question mark around it, but proposing they got to the 5th or 6th layer sounds like a strong bias, nothing indicates they got that far, and doing so would probably limit them to fighting devils, whereas they got smacked by both sides.

I used 5/6 as a random choice. But honestly, given the Tanar'ri's complete inability to actually agree on or do anything. (in fact, the plot of Expedition to the Demon Web pits was specifically how dangerous that would be). I'd say it's less that a formal truce happened and more that the Devils hired the Loths, the two fought back and forced the Celestials to retreat and then pulled on their troops from Avernus so the Celestials ran straight into the Demons.

Again, this is pure speculation, I'm not assuming anything in particular. The only thing I'm taking as fact is "Celestials attacked, succeeded for a while, then had to retreat when faced with the combined forces of both." How many, how long the attack really was, how bad the route was, all of that is, I feel, deliberately left open.


Archon's couldn't handle CE with LE's and others help. As to Eladrin, this is one of those things that drifts across editions, personally, no, I don't think it is well established in the lore that Eladrin can handle the Obyriths.

Archons couldn't handle both and likely all three, Sounds like they'd do just fine one on one so to speak. As for the Eladrin, the book you're referencing states it happening. The Obyrliths are gone, the Eladrin are not given to boasting or lies. If they say they took them out at the end of the Law Chaos war, I don't find reason to doubt the way I do with Yugoloth histories. I mean, the book you leaned towards literally claims the General of Gehena created the Baatezu and Tanar'ri and forced the creation of Law and Chaos.

[Brookshw]

I used 5/6 as a random choice. But honestly, given the Tanar'ri's complete inability to actually agree on or do anything. (in fact, the plot of Expedition to the Demon Web pits was specifically how dangerous that would be). I'd say it's less that a formal truce happened and more that the Devils hired the Loths, the two fought back and forced the Celestials to retreat and then pulled on their troops from Avernus so the Celestials ran straight into the Demons.

Again, this is pure speculation, I'm not assuming anything in particular. The only thing I'm taking as fact is "Celestials attacked, succeeded for a while, then had to retreat when faced with the combined forces of both." How many, how long the attack really was, how bad the route was, all of that is, I feel, deliberately left open. It's possible, though nothing notes the celestials as succeeding, just that their intervention is one of the very few times that the blood war paused (I like to think of it as kind of a family feud, 'we're allowed to fight each other, no outsiders allowed').




Archons couldn't handle both and likely all three, Sounds like they'd do just fine one on one so to speak. As for the Eladrin, the book you're referencing states it happening. The Obyrliths are gone, the Eladrin are not given to boasting or lies. If they say they took them out at the end of the Law Chaos war, I don't find reason to doubt the way I do with Yugoloth histories. I mean, the book you leaned towards literally claims the General of Gehena created the Baatezu and Tanar'ri and forced the creation of Law and Chaos. Oh, I'm pulling from more than the just Hellbound, but there's nothing in that book that credits the Eladrin with wiping out the Obyriths, Hellbound calls out Eladrin specifically as staying out of the blood war; Obyrith's are kinda ignored in PS (heck, Faces of the Fiends doesn't even mention them and it covers everyone else's progenitor). For the early years of the war of L&C I look back to Rod of Seven Parts (I might be mixing in stuff from Elder Evils, I'd have to double check all the sources to know where each piece came from). The forces of law didn't fare too well against one evil faction there, not sure we can realistically say the Archons could handle one by themselves (which isn't to say it wouldn't be a fight, I'm not proposing they're pushovers either).

[Millstone85]

Well, the fear isn't that the Abyss or the Hells stop attacking each other and pick fights with other targets, the fear is that the Abyss conquers the Hells or the Hells conquer the Abyss, resulting in something that has the raw power of the Abyss and the surgeon-like manner to apply it of the Hells.

It's not the end of the Blood War that's scary, it's the theoretical assimilation of the defeated plane into the victorious one.How would that work, though? Say all nine of the Hells get pulled into the Abyss. Would the last surviving devils offer their expertise in doing surgeon-like operations? Maybe. Would demons accept their surrender and follow their teachings? I don't believe they would. Or perhaps the very nature of the two planes would even out, making the Abyss move toward Law, which would be a victory for Evil but not so much for the Chaotic Evil that demons are supposed to be exemplars of.

What I envision instead is one of two scenarios:

Baator is left as an empty shell of itself. The Abyss remains the Abyss, just with either 675 or ∞+9 layers, unhindered by Lawful Evil, and free to turn its attention to the other planes. Which is, contrary to your opinion, the whole reason why celestials didn't want the Blood War to have a victor.
Baator vanishes entirely. Gehenna, Hades, Carceri, the Abyss and Pandemonium all slide one step to the left of the Wheel. However, these only look lawful when compared to new lower plane that forms between Pandemonium and Limbo. The young plane may become a threat or just be a symptom of the shift in the balance of Law and Chaos through the universe.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

There's also the fact that it can't actually work.

The Nine Hells could be crippled in the sense that the Tanar'ri could take over the portion of Avernus that has the portal to Dis... And then, as we know happens in PS, that section of Avernus tilts Chaotic and starts falling right so to speak into the other lower planes, it's no longer part of the Nine Hells and so no longer is that significant, the Devils make a new portal to Dis, super reinforce the original and wall it off and... Things continue.

You can't take ground in a world where the ground is infinite and if you manage to actually take any significant piece of it it just shifts to become part of your ground instead of theirs.

[Joe the Rat]

To borrow from my fellow shiny-head-and-vandyck enthusiast, the concern isn't which planes become the new X, because there isn't a new X.

Hell winning the war means they can move to conquest, everything gets turned LE, and the multiverse falls apart.
Abyss wins, they can turn all their attention to swarming across the planes, everything goes CE, and the multiverse falls apart.
The 'loths get bored playing both sides against one another to enjoy their suffering and make a profit, reorient them to the rest of the planes, everything goes Evil of Any Flavor, and the multiverse turns into Warhammer40k.


As a counterthought, what if that's not how it works? One of the things to remember is that Outsiders are literally made of their alignments. It may be the case that relocating will in time cause you to reorient. Say Jubilex, in a move that nobody saw coming, conquers Avernus. After squishily relocating his blobby minions, they start getting to work, initially oozing all over, but then start focusing and branching, creating a network of connections even more efficient than the Japanese railway system war roads already laid on the plane. In response to their new location (and everything they are eating), the slimes and molds go Lawful. That would suggest that over millenia a post-demonic conquest wheel would revert to its pre-conquest flavor, only with more arms and horns on its denizens. I suppose that takes the threat off of the issue since while trillions of entities would suffer, and thanks to unchecked encroachment the majority of souls coming out of the material planes would lean far more to the deep end of the alignment pool, the cosmic balance would eventually remain.

The challenge to this fun thought is that gate towns can become part of their adjacent Plane. CE gate towns have an established history of falling into The Abyss if they get too Chaotic and Evil. I don't remember what the Planar / Petitioner / Prime mix is in these places, so it's a question of this being an effect of mortals being able to influence, where Outsiders do not, or if the local population, regardless of form, determines the plane's flavor.

[Unoriginal]

There's also the fact that it can't actually work.

The Nine Hells could be crippled in the sense that the Tanar'ri could take over the portion of Avernus that has the portal to Dis... And then, as we know happens in PS, that section of Avernus tilts Chaotic and starts falling right so to speak into the other lower planes, it's no longer part of the Nine Hells and so no longer is that significant, the Devils make a new portal to Dis, super reinforce the original and wall it off and... Things continue.

You can't take ground in a world where the ground is infinite and if you manage to actually take any significant piece of it it just shifts to become part of your ground instead of theirs.

Making a part of the territory you're attacking a part of your territory is the definition of conquest.

Avernus becoming part of the Abyss would be a cosmology-shaking event, as while the planes are infinite they each are the embodiment (or rather, en-locatiomment) of a part of the mortals' soulscape.

Lawful malevolence losing 1/9th of its whole and said 1/9th being absorbed by chaotic malevolence would have *massive* impact, likely resulting in everything on the Material Plane going partially more chaotic.

Not to mention the fact all the lawful evil souls would now show up into Dis, and that the "you can only open portals to the first layer of Hell" rule would now apply to Dis as well. And the fact the Demons can now use the Styx to get into Dis. Dispater's city is not suited for that kind of exposure, and Dispater himself would be horrendous at handling that kind of pressure, being a paranoiac more adept at urban scheming that warfare.

Worth noting that 5e makes clear the Abyss wouldn't need to absorb Avernus to reach Dis. It's mentioned in the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes that the Blood War nearly spilled into Dis at least once, an event that is the reason for Baalzebul's punishment in this edition.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Making a part of the territory you're attacking a part of your territory is the definition of conquest.

Avernus becoming part of the Abyss would be a cosmology-shaking event, as while the planes are infinite they each are the embodiment (or rather, en-locatiomment) of a part of the mortals' soulscape.

I clearly explained this badly and I apologize.

Let me be more clear hopefully. In the definition of conquest we are seeing this in our mind as Place A goes to Place B and takes Place B as their own. In a Zero Sum game where there is finite land.

That is not what I meant. Avernus is an Infinitely large plane. It can't be "taken". If, in the worst case scenario, the Tanar'ri HELD the portal to Dis and started being in place. It would slowly become more Chaotic. As it slips away from perfect balanced LE it would leave the Nine Hells. It wouldn't go to the abyss, it would become part of Archeron. The Demons would then have no real reason to care about keeping it so there it would be. Meanwhile on the infinitely large Avernus still in the Nine Hells the Devils refortify somewhere else.

We saw this in other domains. As mentioned by Joe, Gate Towns in the Outlands have to carefully balance not being TOO whatever they're a gate to or they just cross over into that realm. The reason the Formians and so much non mechanics are on Mechanus is because either the Harmonium or the Formians (Depending on lore) Brought too much Non-Good Law into sections of Arcadia and made part of it slide. When too much balance and structure hits parts of Aborea it tilts into Beastlands. Too much chaos tilts to Ysgard. It never goes full tilt somewhere else, it slides.

So TLDR: You can't conquer Avernus, it is infinitely big and any place you hold onto for any length of time suddenly turns out to be somewhere other than Avernus.

[Millstone85]

It would slowly become more Chaotic. As it slips away from perfect balanced LE it would leave the Nine Hells. It wouldn't go to the abyss, it would become part of Archeron.Gehenna, not Acheron.

But speaking of Acheron, the plane of war as a blood-oiled machine that just won't stop, is it then a reflection or model for the Blood War? There has to be some way for devils and demons to count points in their conflict. Either the planes and their layers aren't actually infinite spaces, or they are but still contain a finite amount of soulstuff or something.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Gehenna, not Acheron.

Had it backwards in my mind, thank you. :)


But speaking of Acheron, the plane of war as a blood-oiled machine that just won't stop, is it then a reflection or model for the Blood War? There has to be some way for devils and demons to count points in their conflict. Either the planes and their layers aren't actually infinite spaces, or they are but still contain a finite amount of soulstuff or something.

Or the side effect of being a full on physical manifestation of a Concept is that you can't see beyond that concept. Demons HAVE to be free, HAVE to destroy anything in their way, HAVE to chafe at structure. Devils will ALWAYS try to find the legal loophole, the coherent, planned way through. Modrons are so rigid that something killing their Primus and stepping into it's place automatically becomes Primus with no question. The Eladrin will never organize coherently even if it would let them tip things to their desire ultimately.

It works the other way too. Said example of something becoming Primus was suddenly inflicted with so much Law that they had to quickly get rid of being Primus or risk switching into an actual Modron. Archons so focused on winning the war by destroying their enemy end up Devils. I think I recall that Asura's are essentially Archons that refused to follow orders, and they kinda resembled winged Firre Eladrins.

[Unoriginal]

I clearly explained this badly and I apologize.

Let me be more clear hopefully. In the definition of conquest we are seeing this in our mind as Place A goes to Place B and takes Place B as their own. In a Zero Sum game where there is finite land.

That is not what I meant. Avernus is an Infinitely large plane. It can't be "taken". If, in the worst case scenario, the Tanar'ri HELD the portal to Dis and started being in place. It would slowly become more Chaotic. As it slips away from perfect balanced LE it would leave the Nine Hells. It wouldn't go to the abyss, it would become part of Archeron. The Demons would then have no real reason to care about keeping it so there it would be. Meanwhile on the infinitely large Avernus still in the Nine Hells the Devils refortify somewhere else.

We saw this in other domains. As mentioned by Joe, Gate Towns in the Outlands have to carefully balance not being TOO whatever they're a gate to or they just cross over into that realm. The reason the Formians and so much non mechanics are on Mechanus is because either the Harmonium or the Formians (Depending on lore) Brought too much Non-Good Law into sections of Arcadia and made part of it slide. When too much balance and structure hits parts of Aborea it tilts into Beastlands. Too much chaos tilts to Ysgard. It never goes full tilt somewhere else, it slides.

So TLDR: You can't conquer Avernus, it is infinitely big and any place you hold onto for any length of time suddenly turns out to be somewhere other than Avernus.

The planes are only infinite from the inside. Most of the multiverse is outside of Avernus, making it finite when you are outside of it.

Avernus being conquered is a real possibility. It doesn't really matter if B stays where it is so long as it is now owned by A and part of A.

And yes, maybe Avernus would become part of Acheron first, but Demons don't stop claiming a place until it's part of the Abyss, and I doubt the forces of Acheron are willing to oppose that significantly (although maybe some will try claiming some of the plane before it continues its path to Chaos).

To put it differently: if the abyssal gatetown becomes too abyssal and slip into the Abyss, then this part of the gatetown's original plane is amputated and absorbed by the Abyss. It is a physical expression of the metaphysical fact there is now more chaotic malevolence and less [what the gatetown's original plane was].

To go further into this: by making parts of Arcadia non-good, Law became more powerful as Lawful Benevolence (aka Benevolent Law) became weaker.

The infinite planes and their layers are just a physical metaphore for the universal, metaphysical concepts. To give an example, if Tiamat gained ownership of even some parts of Dis by some twist of fate, then everything Dis represents
/embodies would become more draconic, proportionally.

It's not "the plane is infinite so the ruler can afford losing ground infinitely".

[Pixel_Kitsune]

The planes are only infinite from the inside. Most of the multiverse is outside of Avernus, making it finite when you are outside of it.

Not really the way it works, the impossibility is part of it, each if infinitely big and still next to each other, doesn't matter.


Avernus being conquered is a real possibility. It doesn't really matter if B stays where it is so long as it is now owned by A and part of A.

It does, because once it falls into Gehenna it's not part of the Nine Hells, it has no significance. When a Portal Town "falls" it just is suddenly on the other side of the portal, it no longer can defend the portal, it doesn't take a portal with it, it leaves the portal behind. If you took the land around the portal to Dis and it slid to Gehenna the portal wouldn't go with it. Avernus wouldn't go with it. The only way it stays useful to the Demons is if the Demons hold enough order to not upset the balance and in that case they'll slowly slide to Lawful and Asmodeus will bring them into the fold.


And yes, maybe Avernus would become part of Acheron first, but Demons don't stop claiming a place until it's part of the Abyss, and I doubt the forces of Acheron are willing to oppose that significantly (although maybe some will try claiming some of the plane before it continues its path to Chaos).

They can hold onto it as it slides all the way to the Abyss, it's troops not actually in the blood war then.


To put it differently: if the abyssal gatetown becomes too abyssal and slip into the Abyss, then this part of the gatetown's original plane is amputated and absorbed by the Abyss. It is a physical expression of the metaphysical fact there is now more chaotic malevolence and less [what the gatetown's original plane was].

The Town slides through the portal so to speak and a new town will end up being built where it used to be, the Portal doesn't move, the Outlands doesn't become smaller in any way.

[Millstone85]

When a Portal Town "falls" it just is suddenly on the other side of the portal, it no longer can defend the portal, it doesn't take a portal with it, it leaves the portal behind. If you took the land around the portal to Dis and it slid to Gehenna the portal wouldn't go with it.If a town on Avernus with a portal to Dis suddenly found itself on the other side of the portal, then the town would now be on Dis. If the same town is instead transported to Gehenna, then it was not through the portal to Dis.

This looks like a more complex scenario than what regularly happens to the Outlands' gate-towns, because it involves three locations instead of two.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Personally, the Blood War has never made any sense in the context of infinite planes. In no small part because of infinite planes--those have never made any sense to me either. If the planes are infinite, the resources (including manpower) of each plane must be infinite even if all but a tiny fraction of each plane is empty. And with instant travel within a plane (as is required for anything to work at all), you can instantly gather your (infinite) forces anywhere. And you'd expect an infinite number of Demon Prince-caliber creatures.

I much prefer nicely finite cosmologies. Especially finite and transitive cosmologies.

So yeah. Planescape and the associated Great Wheel have never really been my favorites.

[Millstone85]

Either the planes and their layers aren't actually infinite spaces, or they are but still contain a finite amount of soulstuff or something.
If the planes are infinite, the resources (including manpower) of each plane must be infinite even if all but a tiny fraction of each plane is empty.What I had in mind was an infinite space that would be empty except for stuff that originally came from somewhere else. Souls, faith, some actual matter, all imported.

Like if I put a cookie in a bottomless jar. I would now have an infinite cookie jar... containing a single cookie.

[Unoriginal]

Personally, the Blood War has never made any sense in the context of infinite planes. In no small part because of infinite planes--those have never made any sense to me either. If the planes are infinite, the resources (including manpower) of each plane must be infinite even if all but a tiny fraction of each plane is empty. And with instant travel within a plane (as is required for anything to work at all), you can instantly gather your (infinite) forces anywhere. And you'd expect an infinite number of Demon Prince-caliber creatures.


It would likely be more accurate that the planes are "non-definite" rather than "infinite", at least in 5e.

To explain what I mean: when visiting Avernus as a mortal in Descent into Avernus, there are locations... but there is no real distance between them. It can take someone days to go from A to B, or it might take a fraction of that.

Because the Outer Planes are not physical places and it's more a question of "I make the plane make be at the spot I want to be".

Conceptualizing the planes as infinite is more mortals trying to impose physical characteristics of a fundamentally arbitrary and metaphysical concept. Without the metaphorical-becoming-literal and personifications processes that are naturally part of the D&D setting, the Nine Hells are simply the collective weight of most lawful evil soul that are or ever were in every Material Planes.

As for the Blood War, it exists because Law and Chaos must fight, as those two extremes are defined by their eternal struggle, and the malevolent parts of Law and Chaos are the only parts who are still willing to fight.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

If a town on Avernus with a portal to Dis suddenly found itself on the other side of the portal, then the town would now be on Dis. If the same town is instead transported to Gehenna, then it was not through the portal to Dis.

This looks like a more complex scenario than what regularly happens to the Outlands' gate-towns, because it involves three locations instead of two.

I wasn't saying the Fortress in Avernus would fall through the Portal to Dis. I was saying that if said Fortress was held by Tanar'ri and forced more chaotic and went to Gehenna it wouldn't yank the Portal along with it.


Personally, the Blood War has never made any sense in the context of infinite planes. In no small part because of infinite planes--those have never made any sense to me either. If the planes are infinite, the resources (including manpower) of each plane must be infinite even if all but a tiny fraction of each plane is empty. And with instant travel within a plane (as is required for anything to work at all), you can instantly gather your (infinite) forces anywhere. And you'd expect an infinite number of Demon Prince-caliber creatures.

The Wars and such happen because these things aren't creatures that are of a certain alignment, they're that Alignment incarnate. We think of it in terms of a person. A Politician might be Lawful Evil, but there's bit of chaos, bits of decency, and ultimately they aren't purely tied to LE. But a Devil? No, a Devil is always and perfectly LE.

And there's not Infinite Travel, it's that Travel is determined by reference to land mark and some aspect of Will power. Generally it takes 3d6 days to get from one place to another and the time is not always even.

Example, if I want to travel from Chronepsis' Mausoleum to the GateTown of Sylvania, it'll take 3-18 days. If I wanted to travel from Sylvania to Xaos it'd take another 3-18 days, But if you then Stop halfway there and decide you want to go to Glorium instead it then takes 3-18 more days to get there. Then if you decide to continue onto Xaos... 3-18 days. And from there you decide you want to go straight back to Sylvania? Only 3-18 days to get back despite the fact that you spent 9-54 days to get there.

[Millstone85]

Because the Outer Planes are not physical places and it's more a question of "I make the plane make be at the spot I want to be".Which might be best represented by the Hinterlands, or not.

You can reach the Hinterlands by trying to explore the Outlands beyond its ring of gate-towns. As you move further and further away from the Spire, things around you become increasingly more dreamlike and bizarre. Yet no matter how far you go, the journey back never takes more than a week. Walking all the way through the Hinterlands does not seem possible, though some claim to have done just that and reached the Outer Planes.

It is like the Great Wheel is telling you "Oh, you want space? More places to see? Fine, I will half-ass something".

Unless it is something else entirely. Either way, that's a piece of Planescape lore I would like 5e to mention.

[Brookshw]

Personally, the Blood War has never made any sense in the context of infinite planes. In no small part because of infinite planes--those have never made any sense to me either. If the planes are infinite, the resources (including manpower) of each plane must be infinite even if all but a tiny fraction of each plane is empty. And with instant travel within a plane (as is required for anything to work at all), you can instantly gather your (infinite) forces anywhere. And you'd expect an infinite number of Demon Prince-caliber creatures.

I much prefer nicely finite cosmologies. Especially finite and transitive cosmologies.

So yeah. Planescape and the associated Great Wheel have never really been my favorites.

Spacial issues aside, what else would you need to find it appealing?

[Pixel_Kitsune]

It is like the Great Wheel is telling you "Oh, you want space? More places to see? Fine, I will half-ass something".

I use that idea in a LOT of places. Most present in that there's one campaign where the PCs have established a new Feywild Realm (Long story, it's a continued Campaign after Witchlight ended and one of the PC's was Zybilna's "Grandson" who wanted his own realm. Basically it started off as just a small beach and a cliffside castle based on the Maldives (Look it up if you're curious). When the heir and their spouse first climbed to the top they hoped to find grasslands where a small village could grow and have crops... And there it was. Then they brought in a spirit that wanted forest and one started growing. A druid decided they wanted to find hotsprings and guess what was on the other side of the beach if you climb the natural breakwater at one end?

It's a fun way to do outerplanes or really any not prime place.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Spacial issues aside, what else would you need to find it appealing?

It's less about more and more about less. I fundamentally dislike (as an aesthetic thing, not making claims of objective quality) many of the core assumptions. Including, but not limited to the following:

1) Unversality. And in fact multiversality. I much prefer if each setting defines its own cosmology from the ground up. That goes extra for identical races, gods, extra planar creatures/powers etc. all across the various settings. It's a straightjacket that stifles creativity.
2) Baked-in cosmological alignment. Alignment sorta kinda works as a roleplay aid/shorthand. As a fundamental property of matter? Nah.
3) The simultaneous state of being stuffed with a bunch of duplicative stuff due to the cruft of a thousand splats over several editions AND ALSO mostly having empty, yet insanely hazardous planes. This means that planar adventures are in one of a few locales and/or restricted to high level characters only. Which wastes 99% of the potential.
4) The fact that it's entirely incoherent by design, due to being assembled out of the dregs of a thousand splats over several incompatible editions.
5) (planescape specific) the insistence on cloaking basically pedestrian, mundane ideas in layers of jargon and cant.
6) everything being choked in high-power NPCs.
7) the absolute insistence than unless you're an arcane caster (or maybe a cleric) you're useless and pointless in the planes. Because even surviving there requires copious and constant amounts of spell-casting (not just magic, but spells).

All in all, it's everything I dislike about Forgotten Realms, taken to the Nth degree. I don't mind kitchen sinks. But this feels like someone just piling more stuff without trying to make it all fit into a coherent whole. An exercise in box-checking for the sake of box-checking. There is a box where everything is placed and it must be forced to fit that box...even if that makes utterly no sense and there's a nice <thing>-shaped hole right over there. Which describes modern WotC pretty darn well, to be honest.

I like integrated cosmologies, where you can find a rift at level 3 and have a nice little adventure in a pocket of another plane. Ones where the entire cosmology works hand-in-hand, where there is a sense of a "cosmic economy" (of energy/power). And ones that have a reasonable sense of scale. Having infinite space is pointless if all you have is one or two real locations and an endless amount of wish-it-were-procedural-generation. Procedural generation is actually better than what you get here, which is just...half-baked. It's like No Man's Sky was before they fixed it--hollow.

[Brookshw]

I like integrated cosmologies, where you can find a rift at level 3 and have a nice little adventure in a pocket of another plane. Ones where the entire cosmology works hand-in-hand, where there is a sense of a "cosmic economy" (of energy/power). And ones that have a reasonable sense of scale. Having infinite space is pointless if all you have is one or two real locations and an endless amount of wish-it-were-procedural-generation. Procedural generation is actually better than what you get here, which is just...half-baked. It's like No Man's Sky was before they fixed it--hollow.

Thank you. Would you mind elaborating a bit on what you mean by 'cosmic economy's?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Thank you. Would you mind elaborating a bit on what you mean by 'cosmic economy's?

The sense that everything (at least at one point) works together to keep the universe turning. Every piece had a purpose, even if now that purpose isn't upheld in many cases. A cosmic order, even if only the skeleton remains.

For example, my setting[1] has the following structure:


1. Everything is made out of aether/anima (both names are used). Different forms of matter are the result of applying aspects to it--effectively a bunch of elemental (and other) sliders that all apply at the same time. So a piece of matter might have the Umbral Earth and Luminous Fire aspects both turned up to +MAX and the others neutral or even -MAX. Each aspect provides different properties in isolation, in combination you get complexity.
2. Aether is produced by mortal souls as they grow and change. In fact, more aether is produced than is consumed (in the normal state of affairs).[2]
3. The excess aether, plus the aether released by the body as it decays (and the "spirit") travels up through Shadow[3] into the Astral[4], where the Great Mechanism and the lucian inhabitants of that plane work together to transport it where it needs to be in the Elemental[5] planes, consuming some of it as they go[6].
4. The Elemental planes apply aspects to the aether and elemental forces (both sentient and not) bring it back to the Mortal in the form of matter and energy, fulfilling all the normal cycles (air, water, geological, etc) in place of the normal processes.[7].
5. The "Angels" are those Lucians[8] who get their necessary aether from the Great Mechanism by way of duty. Theirs was the choice in the long ago to act as defenders of the world against Things from Outside as well as from internal (planar) threats. Effectively, they're the police force of the universe. Rarely get involved with mortals.
6. The "Devils" (not what they call themselves) get their energy from fulfilling contracts. Either with the gods/ascendant powers/etc (ie forces of the Astral) or by contracting with mortals for a claim on their "excess" energy. Those horrific forms? Those are merely vessels, shapes created by the summoning spells. "Celestial" vs "Fiend" is a matter of source of energy, not morality.
7. Demons[9], on the other hand, get their energy by being hosts for effectively entropy-spirits, the same entities that fuel (and control) the undead. It's a fine balance; they have to maintain their dominance by feeding the spirit other souls, entire.
8. Ascendants (ie powerful Astral entities, mostly ascended mortals) get their power from worship and belief (which channels aether to them directly). They get fairly free rein, but are limited in power (the weakest being only slightly stronger than your average mortal). But in return, they're shaped by their worshipers. They become what they're worshiped as. This makes them local in scope. They can't grant clerical spells, only make warlock-style pacts/teach mortals tricks.
9. Gods, on the other hand, get their power directly from the Great Mechanism in exchange for being the PR department of the universe. They answer prayers/manage the interface between mortals and the Astral. The Sun God (Tor Elan) is not the sun itself; without him the sun would be just fine. But he represents the focal point for things related to the sun for mortal prayers. They can grant clerical spells (basically give delegated user accounts on the Great Mechanism itself), but are subject to fairly tight constraints on how they can act viz mortals.
10. The fey are what happens when the innate "spirits of the land" get obsessive about something mortal. An emotion, a practice, a quirk, etc. They imitate it. If they hold together long enough, they get more powerful and more "human". But they're deathless--kill a fey and its constituent spirits simply scatter back to the land. These same spirits are how druids and rangers get their power.

[1] Which is only the size of the Inner Solar System, spread across 3 overlapping planes and some pocket planes.
[2] Yes, energy is not conserved. Magic, non-mortal beings, and a few other things consume anima. There's a mechanism to burn huge chunks of it when it gets too dense, translating that into new basic operating procedures for the universe.
[3] The closest I have to an afterlife; it's the combination of some of the Hells, some of the Abyss, the Feywild, Shadowfell, the Ethereal and pieces of the Astral (the transitive parts), all wrapped up into a 3-layered blanket the size of a planet. It's the interface between the Mortal and the other planes, the bearings on which it all turns.
[4] Basically all of the Outer Planes, minus the "hell" nature. Still tons of room to maneuver, but it's the home to most of the gods, ascendants, devils, and angels.
[5] All 12 of them, 3 for each element ("pure" + two partial overlaps with neighbors). These also create the seasonal cycle as the planet rotates through their (fixed spatial) influence.
[6] Anything not mortal is, by definition, a parasite/symbiote. Only mortals can create energy. Which is why everyone else needs them to flourish. They may want to conquer or manipulate, but not utterly destroy. Except the jotnar, the entropy spirits. And the Things from Outside. They don't really care and have their own agenda, if you can call "bring everything back to nothing" an agenda in the case of the jotnar.
[7] Even though the world has been continually inhabited and mined (etc) for 25k years...they don't run out of ores. Why? Because the earth elementals come behind them and fill in the mines. One of the major forms of employment in the planes of earth is planning and figuring out where to place minerals.
[8] Children of Light, those whose essential "self" is bound up in True Names derived from the Primordial of Light before the beginning. Immortal, not fundamentally killable (without extreme measures), but also incapable of true growth/creativity without mortal involvement. The inhabitants of the Astral. And, in part, the ancestors (or descendants of a common ancestor) of the elves.
[9] Who live in the Abyss, a tumorous cyst/prison that formed around the source of the jotnar "leakage". They serve the Universal Order (unwillingly/unknowingly, mostly) as a loose plug in that gaping wound. They may or may not be evil, but they're dangerous to be around. Summoning them contaminates the world with jotnar. Which is bad.


So basically a sense that the world, as a world, exists as an organic whole, not just a bunch of backdrops thrown together for adventures. I'm particularly resistant to the "it's just like Real Life, except with a layer of magic which breaks the rules thrown on". I want the cosmology to inform everything, from the laws of physics on up. Take a consistent idea and build on that, throwing away the pieces that don't fit. Have restrictions on what can be played, instead of just making something up and shoving it in wherever it kinda fits.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

It's less about more and more about less. I fundamentally dislike (as an aesthetic thing, not making claims of objective quality) many of the core assumptions. Including, but not limited to the following:

6) everything being choked in high-power NPCs.
7) the absolute insistence than unless you're an arcane caster (or maybe a cleric) you're useless and pointless in the planes. Because even surviving there requires copious and constant amounts of spell-casting (not just magic, but spells).


These two kind of get fully addressed by Planescape.

For #6, most stuff is stronger than regular mortals, sure, but some of the scariest people out there aren't scary because they're Ultra powerful, but because of their connections, knowledge and skill.

That's already true in other places, sure Xanathar might be a Beholder, which is powerful, but they're JUST a Beholder. Their skill, wits and choices make them significant.

For Planescape, Shemeska is probably the most well known and frankly frightening Yugoloth known. But mechanically she is an Arcanoloth without anything more than what any other of her kind have.

Titivilus is a prominent and frightening figure and isn't powerful per say.

For 7, the entire point of Planescape and Sigil is that there's portals everywhere and it doesn't take being a spellcaster, it takes knowledge to know the key to a portal and knowledge to survive wherever the portal takes you.

[PhoenixPhyre]

These two kind of get fully addressed by Planescape.

For #6, most stuff is stronger than regular mortals, sure, but some of the scariest people out there aren't scary because they're Ultra powerful, but because of their connections, knowledge and skill.

That's already true in other places, sure Xanathar might be a Beholder, which is powerful, but they're JUST a Beholder. Their skill, wits and choices make them significant.

For Planescape, Shemeska is probably the most well known and frankly frightening Yugoloth known. But mechanically she is an Arcanoloth without anything more than what any other of her kind have.

Titivilus is a prominent and frightening figure and isn't powerful per say.

For 7, the entire point of Planescape and Sigil is that there's portals everywhere and it doesn't take being a spellcaster, it takes knowledge to know the key to a portal and knowledge to survive wherever the portal takes you.

When I say "high power", that's exactly what I mean. The floor on the power level is stupid high. Your baseline mook is CR 5+, with buckets of CR 10+ normal dudes (normal relative to their area). It reinforces the "you can't play here until you're high level" attitude. Which is a total waste.

And as for 7...sure, you can take those portals. You'll just die instantly to the constant damage or other environmental effects unless you've stacked all the right spells and gear to be immune. In which case the entire place is just an empty waste with nothing to see or do except in a single place per plane, and every part of each plane is homogenous. The planes are entirely one-note by design. It's a design ethos that says "ok, we have these boxes we need to fill[1]. Let's slap one thing in each box and call it a day." We need a Law + Good plane. So we get that one. And it's basically just Law + Good. No internal complexity. The Upper planes get this worse, since WotC's concept of "good" is so utterly insipid and bland. The Lower Planes at least get some internal variety, but even then they're pretty one-note.

Edit: And planescape has the Comic Book Cosmology problem--there have been so many conflicting books written, precious few of which actually took the time to read the others and find coherence. What powers does Superman have? Well, it depends on what book you're reading. Same with the planes. You can't stitch together a coherent description...or rather you can stitch together almost any description you want. It's overstuffed with the detritus of a thousand splats. And worse, novels with meta plots.

[1] Start with the decision to have planes matching alignment. Everything else in the outer planes follows, by cookie cutter.

[Unoriginal]

7) the absolute insistence than unless you're an arcane caster (or maybe a cleric) you're useless and pointless in the planes. Because even surviving there requires copious and constant amounts of spell-casting (not just magic, but spells).

What are you referring to here?

It's not something I've noticed. Unless you mean the Inner Planes being lethal to most humanoids.

[PhoenixPhyre]

What are you referring to here?

It's not something I've noticed. Unless you mean the Inner Planes being lethal to most humanoids.

The Inner Planes were the worst cases. Positive Energy? Swell up and die within a day, at best. Negative energy? Waste away and die real fast. Elemental planes? Better be able to fly/not need air/dig through solid rock/survive constant fire damage. But even the Lower Planes are (in Planescape) basically lethal unless you can throw down with high-power baddies constantly and avoid the bad effects (which involve high-power magic). The Upper Planes? You'll get changed to the point where you don't want to live real fast. Etc.

Basically, big fat "you must be this tall to ride" signs posted everywhere.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

The Inner Planes were the worst cases. Positive Energy? Swell up and die within a day, at best. Negative energy? Waste away and die real fast. Elemental planes? Better be able to fly/not need air/dig through solid rock/survive constant fire damage. But even the Lower Planes are (in Planescape) basically lethal unless you can throw down with high-power baddies constantly and avoid the bad effects (which involve high-power magic). The Upper Planes? You'll get changed to the point where you don't want to live real fast. Etc.

Basically, big fat "you must be this tall to ride" signs posted everywhere.

I don't remember that case with the Outer Planes. Yeah, the Inner Planes are elemental energy incarnate and so are inhospitable, no argument. But can you reference book or page or source for the Upper Planes being like that? Cause I don't recall that ever happening in my PlaneScape games.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't remember that case with the Outer Planes. Yeah, the Inner Planes are elemental energy incarnate and so are inhospitable, no argument. But can you reference book or page or source for the Upper Planes being like that? Cause I don't recall that ever happening in my PlaneScape games.

I'm going off of having read materials (from the original planescape on) across many editions, plus bunches of forum discussion. So no. I can't cite sources. But it follows relatively directly from the descriptions in even the 5e DMG, where every day you spend in the Upper Planes has a substantial and cumulative chance of altering your attitudes and behaviors so you don't want to leave.

And even if I could, there is no single source of truth or canon for planescape/the Great Wheel.

[Brookshw]

I'm going off of having read materials (from the original planescape on) across many editions, plus bunches of forum discussion. So no. I can't cite sources. But it follows relatively directly from the descriptions in even the 5e DMG, where every day you spend in the Upper Planes has a substantial and cumulative chance of altering your attitudes and behaviors so you don't want to leave.

And even if I could, there is no single source of truth or canon for planescape/the Great Wheel.

I was interested in your feedback as to what you'd want to see to make the setting more interesting to you, and I've been working backwards to that from the issues you've perceived. I'm generally not inclined to provide feedback/comments on your list because, hey, you do you, but to this point about "must be X tall", that's misunderstanding the setting as well as inaccurate. For example, the very first adventure in Well of Worlds involves a bunch of 1st level PCs in Avernus and having to get out and involved a number of more powerful creatures, most PS adventures were designed for low levels and involved traveling all over the place. Really, there are not that many planes that are innately hostile to you in an immediate, environmental sense (long term exposure being another matter, ). The setting also doesn't expect you to be fighting every high powered thing you run across; high level demon or devil? Chat em up, see what's going on. They don't immediately want to devour your face (for a given value). I realize that having an entry in a monster manual generally causes people to immediately lean towards those creatures as a combat encounter, it's probably one of the things they'd need to work on in the new release. You can, I have, and the setting expects, that you can adventure in it from 1st level.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I was interested in your feedback as to what you'd want to see to make the setting more interesting to you, and I've been working backwards to that from the issues you've perceived. I'm generally not inclined to provide feedback/comments on your list because, hey, you do you, but to this point about "must be X tall", that's misunderstanding the setting as well as inaccurate. For example, the very first adventure in Well of Worlds involves a bunch of 1st level PCs in Avernus and having to get out and involved a number of more powerful creatures, most PS adventures were designed for low levels and involved traveling all over the place. Really, there are not that many planes that are innately hostile to you in an immediate, environmental sense (long term exposure being another matter, ). The setting also doesn't expect you to be fighting every high powered thing you run across; high level demon or devil? Chat em up, see what's going on. They don't immediately want to devour your face (for a given value). I realize that having an entry in a monster manual generally causes people to immediately lean towards those creatures as a combat encounter, it's probably one of the things they'd need to work on in the new release. You can, I have, and the setting expects, that you can adventure in it from 1st level.

If that's so (my only references were the setting materials itself and then forum discussion), that's great and reduces the salience of that issue. But does raise the issue that you wouldn't get that just by reading the setting itself and how people talk about it. Or at least I didn't. It doesn't help that the 2e planescape materials were drenched in heavy cant that obscured just about everything and were "organized" in the classic 2e fashion (ie not at all sanely).

[Pixel_Kitsune]

If that's so (my only references were the setting materials itself and then forum discussion), that's great and reduces the salience of that issue. But does raise the issue that you wouldn't get that just by reading the setting itself and how people talk about it. Or at least I didn't. It doesn't help that the 2e planescape materials were drenched in heavy cant that obscured just about everything and were "organized" in the classic 2e fashion (ie not at all sanely).

I'm not sure where the disconnect there is either since 2e Planescape is specifically designed from 1st level. Aside from what Brooksh already mentioned, The Great Modron March, which is deliberately meant to be a long running series of adventures slowly showing off the Great Wheel as a whole, it is designed for levels 1-10. Beyond that, Sigil is meant to be kind of the base point for a Planescape game the way, say Waterdeep is for Dungeon of the Mad Mage, or Candle Keep or Radiant Citadel for those respective books. And it is not only explicitly welcoming to all power levels but the governing structure of the place ensures that big fights don't break out and even a Balor is going to behave themselves. Because, quite frankly, Shemeska, Rule of Three, Duke Rowan and others all want the city to remain peaceful and even if you think pissing off the arguably strongest Yugoloth, Graz'zt' son and the head of one of the most powerful factions isn't a big deal, getting the Lady's attention is.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

If that's so (my only references were the setting materials itself and then forum discussion), that's great and reduces the salience of that issue. But does raise the issue that you wouldn't get that just by reading the setting itself and how people talk about it. Or at least I didn't. It doesn't help that the 2e planescape materials were drenched in heavy cant that obscured just about everything and were "organized" in the classic 2e fashion (ie not at all sanely).

2E Planescape material definitely does not do a good enough job of explaining that it's something other than a giant cosmic dungeon-crawl, that's true. The introduction to The Great Modron March does explain the philosophy well (GMM starts as an adventure for a level 1-3 party, for what it's worth).


DMs unfamiliar with Planescape adventures have to keep a few things in mind. Simply put, planar adventuring ain't about slaughtering monsters or crawling through dungeons. Sure, there're plenty of opportunities for such things on the planes, but planewalkers have their eyes on more important goals.
...
DMs should design and run planar adventures so that bloods who use skill, wit, and charm have a chance to escape situations that seem impossible. This doesn't mean things are always easy for the player characters, but a body has to realize that adventurers can't be expected to fight off an army of githyanki or fiends - and on the planes, such encounters are possible and even likely.

Further, the tone of a Planescape adventure should reflect its planar surroundings. Nothing should be exactly as it appears. Planewalkers need to keep an open mind about everyone and everything. Enemies might lurk at every turn - but those same opponents could become allies if a basher plays his cards right. Nothing's seen in simple shades of black and white or good and evil. ...

In short, the DM should be aware of differences in power beyond just tougher or easier monsters to fight.

The unfortunate thing I think is that a lot of DMs and especially a lot of players aren't great at running the parts of D&D that aren't combat. A lot of Planescape discussions involve questions that are supposed to be unanswerable, and the sense that there is always something else beyond, something further, larger, more. Those questions too often get reduced to 'could the Lady of Pain beat Ao in a fight' or 'who's stronger, Primus or Ssendam' or 'what if Pandorym fought the gods', and it makes the setting feel less mysterious and more like a prison, where you're constantly trying to beat up a stronger bully. If you like the three pillar model, Planescape games are supposed to lean into the social and exploration pillars more than the combat pillar. The exploration pillar is hard to do. God knows I struggle with it. It requires a bit of a different table vibe than the combat-heavy beer-and-pretzels games that seem most common, at least in my experience.

[PhoenixPhyre]

2E Planescape material definitely does not do a good enough job of explaining that it's something other than a giant cosmic dungeon-crawl, that's true. The introduction to The Great Modron March does explain the philosophy well (GMM starts as an adventure for a level 1-3 party, for what it's worth).



The unfortunate thing I think is that a lot of DMs and especially a lot of players aren't great at running the parts of D&D that aren't combat. A lot of Planescape discussions involve questions that are supposed to be unanswerable, and the sense that there is always something else beyond, something further, larger, more. Those questions too often get reduced to 'could the Lady of Pain beat Ao in a fight' or 'who's stronger, Primus or Ssendam' or 'what if Pandorym fought the gods', and it makes the setting feel less mysterious and more like a prison, where you're constantly trying to beat up a stronger bully. If you like the three pillar model, Planescape games are supposed to lean into the social and exploration pillars more than the combat pillar. The exploration pillar is hard to do. God knows I struggle with it. It requires a bit of a different table vibe than the combat-heavy beer-and-pretzels games that seem most common, at least in my experience.

If I have to read adventures to realize that this is supposed to be different than the setting material provides...

Yeah. I don't buy, use, or read published adventure materials. Hiding important stuff away there, especially when it radically changes how you view the acceptable power levels of the setting is...yeah. Not a good look IMO.

But really, my objections are more to the core principles and assumptions behind the Great Wheel. Planescape itself is a manifestation of those principles and assumptions. So even if you "fixed" that material, I'd still not like it because I don't like the core assumptions of the Great Wheel itself.

I should be clear--I'm not saying it's bad. Just that I, personally, don't like it and have moved away from it. Personally, the 4e World Axis cosmology makes more (but not total) sense to me, and is where I started for my own setting. I don't have any nostalgia for the Great Wheel, since I really started playing at the table top at the very end of 4e and into 5e. Before that was just the various video games, which never really delved into any of the cosmology more than at the surface level. And had very fixed settings.

[Brookshw]

If that's so (my only references were the setting materials itself and then forum discussion), that's great and reduces the salience of that issue. But does raise the issue that you wouldn't get that just by reading the setting itself and how people talk about it. Or at least I didn't. It doesn't help that the 2e planescape materials were drenched in heavy cant that obscured just about everything and were "organized" in the classic 2e fashion (ie not at all sanely).

It's mentioned a few times in the campaign setting, but, yeah, if I had a nickel everytime some wizard fan boy snickered while wishing they'd stat the Lady of Pain so they could kill her I'd be retired.

As to the slang, well, that was just gaming in the 90s, ya know? PS is definitely not the only offender.

[Millstone85]

The sense that everything (at least at one point) works together to keep the universe turning. Every piece had a purpose, even if now that purpose isn't upheld in many cases. A cosmic order, even if only the skeleton remains.

For example, my setting has the following structure:I hope I won't annoy you with my reading of your setting but, in the aspects I am quoting here, what I see is the Wheel after it was well and truly taken over by Mechanus. Now the plane alone defines cosmic order and gives all beings their purpose in it, no longer having to contend with other outer planes pushing different visions of what the universe should be.

the Great Mechanism and the lucian inhabitants of that plane work together to transport [aether] where it needs to be in the Elemental Planes, consuming some of it as they go.It was already my headcanon that, in line with the 4e modron lore I mentioned earlier, Mechanus shaped the Elemental Planes out of the Elemental Chaos and has been keeping them from dissolving back into it.

The "Angels" are those lucians who get their necessary aether from the Great Mechanism by way of duty. Theirs was the choice in the long ago to act as defenders of the world against Things from Outside as well as from internal (planar) threats. Effectively, they're the police force of the universe. Rarely get involved with mortals.
The "Devils" (not what they call themselves) get their energy from fulfilling contracts. Either with the gods/ascendant powers/etc (ie forces of the Astral) or by contracting with mortals for a claim on their "excess" energy. Those horrific forms? Those are merely vessels, shapes created by the summoning spells. "Celestial" vs "Fiend" is a matter of source of energy, not morality.Angels are assimilated, cleaned from any silly concept of morality, and reinvented as law enforcement. Devils are likewise reduced to semi-independent contractors.

[Demons] live in the Abyss, a tumorous cyst/prison that formed around the source of the jotnar "leakage". They serve the Universal Order (unwillingly/unknowingly, mostly) as a loose plug in that gaping wound.Because the Far Realm remains an unsolvable problem, demons are kept as a necessary buffer between it and the cosmos.

Gods, on the other hand, get their power directly from the Great Mechanism in exchange for being the PR department of the universe. They answer prayers/manage the interface between mortals and the Astral. The Sun God (Tor Elan) is not the sun itself; without him the sun would be just fine. But he represents the focal point for things related to the sun for mortal prayers. They can grant clerical spells (basically give delegated user accounts on the Great Mechanism itself), but are subject to fairly tight constraints on how they can act viz mortals.Finally, Mechanus seizes control of divinity. The varakhuts were already on it but now it is fully done.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I hope I won't annoy you with my reading of your setting but, in the aspects I am quoting here, what I see is the Wheel after it was well and truly taken over by Mechanus. Now the plane alone defines cosmic order and gives all beings their purpose in it, no longer having to contend with other outer planes pushing different visions of what the universe should be.
It was already my headcanon that, in line with the 4e modron lore I mentioned earlier, Mechanus shaped the Elemental Planes out of the Elemental Chaos and has been keeping them from dissolving back into it.
Angels are assimilated, cleaned from any silly concept of morality, and reinvented as law enforcement. Devils are likewise reduced to semi-independent contractors.
Because the Far Realm remains an unsolvable problem, demons are kept as a necessary buffer between it and the cosmos.
Finally, Mechanus seizes control of divinity. The varakhuts were already on it but now it is fully done.

The threads are there, sorta. But it requires reshaping the planar structure to have it make some semblance of sense instead of just being "what if each alignment had a (monotone) plane or two".

And angels aren't police, they're more like border patrol. They only watch the outer boundary of the universe. Everything else is part of that effort.

Demons are more like infectious patients in isolation. Some of them are there for no fault of their own. Others are awful, to be sure. And most are highly mixed. The fan favorite character of the setting is the demon prince of Black magic, undead, and contracts. His whole goal is to destroy the abyss and the jotnar. By any means fair or foul. He eats souls, but mostly of those who make and then don't keep their bargains with him. And is a nice guy, overall. As long as you do what you agree to


It's important to note that the Great Mechanism is not Mechanus. It has no will, no "self". It's purely machine, operating on instructions added to it either at startup or later on. And it's a patch, added somewhat later. But still way before the gods--gods are young (in my setting). Specifically, the current concept of gods (as beings entirely fueled by the Great Mechanism) is only 250 years old. Effectively, the timeline goes something like (in years before present):

INFINITY: The Dreaming Dark (sort of like the Far realms, but not really) dreams the Dreamers into existence by thinking "I am me, thus there must be Other."

Infinity - Infinity: One particular Dreamer dreams up the universe and the 9 Primordials, each embodying a concept. They and the creatures created to aid them shape many things, most of which don't look like current stuff. No planes as we know it.

Infinity - 2*Infinity, the Dawn War[1]: One of the primordials "rebels" (or so the story goes), "war" ensues. In this war, the Oblivion Gate (the source of the jotnar) is ripped open by someone (no one knows who). The Dreamer steps in, sacrifices himself and 8 Primordials to form the planes out of their Names (aka bodies/selves). The 9th, the rebel, stripped of his Name, is stuffed along with the Concepts (like causality, etc) that he'd twisted/seduced/coerced into the Abyss around the Gate to form a plug. The Great Mechanism is created out of the Dreamer's self (effectively his circulatory and nervous system, in an esoteric sort of way). Some of the various creatures are placed in the Mortal (having chosen that or being condemned to that) and given souls which are sparks of the Dreamer's essence. Others stay behind, becoming the lucians and elementals (and other assorted immortals). But no gods, not yet. "Worship as power" isn't a thing yet and won't be for a long time

...a long time later...

~4k: Humans[2] (and a few others), desperate for victory against a demon-fuelled horde of orcs[2] and other creatures of many races, employ one of the mechanisms left behind to add a new "rule" to the Great Mechanism, allowing worship/faith to provide power. In both directions. The Old Gods are born, basically what we now call Ascendants. Fueled by faith and worship entirely, but with special privileges on the Great Mechanism's API.

~250: Idiots[3] do idiot things and nearly misalign the elemental planes in the backlash. To fix this, the Great Mechanism eats all (or all that didn't see it coming and hide) the Old Gods. Which was the deal they made when they ascended. Bad things happen globally. The GM, realizing that it needs a voice and to actually report errors and get them fixed, assimilates one god and turns it into a puppet, an output terminal.

~220: New gods, this time chosen from mortals and under strict controls, are chosen. The threads of power are re-plumbed to fit this new style. Ascendants no longer have special admin privileges on the GM itself.

So gods are very much secondary. And there are a lot of people who recognize they exist but refuse to worship them, because why would you consider the second assistant undersecretary for waste management worthy of worship? They venerate ancestors (raising them to Ascendant status in some cases), the nature spirits, or other Ascendants. Or, like many of the sorta-high-elves, worshiping their own arcane power instead.

[1] Yes, this is an old story. Pulled from lots of mythos, including 4e. I never claim originality, because I'm a magpie.
[2] Created only a few centuries before from hobgoblins + elf + magic. Intentionally so. Yes, both humans and orcs are "new". Not as new as halflings or dragonborn, those are only ~1k years old at this point and we can trace exactly when and where they first appeared.
[3] AKA adventurers, aka PCs. In one of the first campaigns in this setting. Turns out telling an artifact of the Dreamer to self-destruct while in the middle of a corruption crisis because someone let the Rebel Primordial out is a Bad Idea.

[Brookshw]

If I have to read adventures to realize that this is supposed to be different than the setting material provides...


Speaking of which, that was one of the interesting things about PS, they advanced the world without destroying it's premise or removing a driving conflict, for example, in Hellbound we find out where all fiend's ability to teleport comes from, and the ability is subsequently, and canonically (as far as PS was concerned), lost, or Faction War shaking up Sigil. There was some interesting stuff which comes from the adventures. Contrasted again Dragonlance or Dark Sun where an author's pet npc solves major setting issues, I know which setting I'll take.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

If I have to read adventures to realize that this is supposed to be different than the setting material provides...

Yeah. I don't buy, use, or read published adventure materials. Hiding important stuff away there, especially when it radically changes how you view the acceptable power levels of the setting is...yeah. Not a good look IMO.

But really, my objections are more to the core principles and assumptions behind the Great Wheel. Planescape itself is a manifestation of those principles and assumptions. So even if you "fixed" that material, I'd still not like it because I don't like the core assumptions of the Great Wheel itself.

I should be clear--I'm not saying it's bad. Just that I, personally, don't like it and have moved away from it. Personally, the 4e World Axis cosmology makes more (but not total) sense to me, and is where I started for my own setting. I don't have any nostalgia for the Great Wheel, since I really started playing at the table top at the very end of 4e and into 5e. Before that was just the various video games, which never really delved into any of the cosmology more than at the surface level. And had very fixed settings.

That's fine! I'm not trying to convince you that Actually Planescape Is Very Good or anything. I love it, and I love Spelljammer and PlaneJammer, but I don't necessarily use them in my own setting. I just think there are a lot of misconceptions about the setting that are driven by how it's been misused by authors, designers and DMs who don't get what it's for.

Settings are tools for storytelling, and the fact of the matter is that some of them are designed to be vehicles for particular story types. The world of Dragonlance is designed to be a tool for telling stories about good and evil in a world where being good is difficult. The Age of Mortals, I think, was poorly received because it took Krynn away from being a place where those stories felt natural. The setting lost its purpose. The stories told in Eberron shouldn't necessarily be the same as the ones in Oerth or Faerun, if you're trying to do something different than a kick-down-the-door combat game.

People want stuff out of Planescape all the time that it's not necessarily designed to deliver*. They want fights against gods and Lovecraftian beings from the Far Realm and solving the big mysteries and winning the big prizes. But the point of Planescape, one of the core assumptions, is that some of the big mysteries can't be solved and you can't beat a god by punching it in the face. Most of the game happens without the dice. If you need the mystery and incomprehensibility of the Far Realm in your Planescape game, you're not Planescaping hard enough; mystery and things beyond the ken of Primes should be all around you.

The Planescape setting in 2E should have been more clear about that in black-and-white, I think. But attitudes at the table were a little different then too, at least in my experience (and I didn't play much 2E, admittedly). I'd love to have updated Planescape material, but I don't think Wizards will do a good job preserving what made Planescape interesting, mostly because I don't think the players really want that stuff. I think they just sorta want a big dungeon to smash around in. Alignment's a pretty passe concept, after all.

*People want stuff out of D&D all the time that it's not designed to deliver, not just any one setting.


Speaking of which, that was one of the interesting things about PS, they advanced the world without destroying it's premise or removing a driving conflict, for example, in Hellbound we find out where all fiend's ability to teleport comes from, and the ability is subsequently, and canonically (as far as PS was concerned), lost, or Faction War shaking up Sigil. There was some interesting stuff which comes from the adventures. Contrasted again Dragonlance or Dark Sun where an author's pet npc solves major setting issues, I know which setting I'll take.

Almost too much interesting stuff is in the adventures, unfortunately. The Savage Tides path is one of the major sources of information on Demogorgon. There's a whole major cosmic shakeup contained in The Great Modron March and Dead Gods. Bastion of Broken Souls is a major source on the Positive Energy Plane. Die Vecna Die is Edition Change: The Adventure. The balance is a little off.

The balance is also off in that 90% of what was written was about demons and devils. There's two books about celestials in all of 2E and 3E and frankly they both kind of stink. Some planes, like the Beastlands, got practically nothing. Unfortunately fanon's required to fill in the corners and empty places, and and fanon is unsatisfying anywhere outside your own table.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Speaking of which, that was one of the interesting things about PS, they advanced the world without destroying it's premise or removing a driving conflict, for example, in Hellbound we find out where all fiend's ability to teleport comes from, and the ability is subsequently, and canonically (as far as PS was concerned), lost, or Faction War shaking up Sigil. There was some interesting stuff which comes from the adventures. Contrasted again Dragonlance or Dark Sun where an author's pet npc solves major setting issues, I know which setting I'll take.

It's all how they handle it. Like, I love the DarkSun Meta history, though I ignore a lot of the book plots. The idea of the Sun mage, the Halfling History and the expanded maps and details on Athas were great. Heck, I don't even mind the NPCs or overall plot. I think my only hiccup is slaughtering all the Sorcerer Kings. I think they'd have been fine just killing Borys and then the Expansion is in a world where Borys and Kalak are gone and the rest are now in an arms race of sorts.

[Brookshw]

Almost too much interesting stuff is in the adventures, unfortunately. The Savage Tides path is one of the major sources of information on Demogorgon. There's a whole major cosmic shakeup contained in The Great Modron March and Dead Gods. Bastion of Broken Souls is a major source on the Positive Energy Plane. Die Vecna Die is Edition Change: The Adventure. The balance is a little off. You're not wrong, though I think there's something to be said about advancing settings.


The balance is also off in that 90% of what was written was about demons and devils. There's two books about celestials in all of 2E and 3E and frankly they both kind of stink. Some planes, like the Beastlands, got practically nothing. Unfortunately fanon's required to fill in the corners and empty places, and and fanon is unsatisfying anywhere outside your own table. I have to have some sympathy for the authors when it comes to celestials, flaws make for interesting characters, and I think there's a certain balance to how many flaws you can give the embodiments of goodness before it starts to look like the whole faction is teetering on falling (not that such settings are bad, I'm plenty fond of GW's settings).

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

You're not wrong, though I think there's something to be said about advancing settings.

I have to have some sympathy for the authors when it comes to celestials, flaws make for interesting characters, and I think there's a certain balance to how many flaws you can give the embodiments of goodness before it starts to look like the whole faction is teetering on falling (not that such settings are bad, I'm plenty fond of GW's settings).

No, I think it's good to advance the settings in reasonable ways. There's just a lot of stuff in the modules that I kind of wish was in the primary source documents.

I think what authors have to be able to do is explain the difference between Good, the cosmic concept, and goodness as practiced by mortals and denizens of the Prime. Some fanon authors and freelancers have done it well. Unfortunately you also get stuff like the Book of Exalted Deeds publishing sanctify the wicked, a sanctified spell of pure Good that lets you yank the soul from a living creature's body, destroying its physical form; trapping the soul in a physical receptacle, slowly twisting it over time into a being of good. It's somehow just as morally horrific as half the stuff in Book of Vile Darkness. And hey, if that's big-G Good, that's a decent explanation for why it'd be just as bad for Good to win the War of Good and Evil.

[Brookshw]

I think what authors have to be able to do is explain the difference between Good, the cosmic concept, and goodness as practiced by mortals and denizens of the Prime. Some fanon authors and freelancers have done it well. Unfortunately you also get stuff like the Book of Exalted Deeds publishing sanctify the wicked, a sanctified spell of pure Good that lets you yank the soul from a living creature's body, destroying its physical form; trapping the soul in a physical receptacle, slowly twisting it over time into a being of good. It's somehow just as morally horrific as half the stuff in Book of Vile Darkness. And hey, if that's big-G Good, that's a decent explanation for why it'd be just as bad for Good to win the War of Good and Evil.

Personally I find BoED to be a hack job that failed on just about every level.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Personally I find BoED to be a hack job that failed on just about every level.

Agreed, unfortunately. I wish it'd been more of a fluff book (also that the, uh, fluff had been better). I get that everything from that era of 3.5 needed a half-dozen PrCs and thirty spells, but ugh.

[Brookshw]

Agreed, unfortunately. I wish it'd been more of a fluff book (also that the, uh, fluff had been better). I get that everything from that era of 3.5 needed a half-dozen PrCs and thirty spells, but ugh.

I suppose in retrospect it would make good inspiration matter for the Harmonium.

[Unoriginal]

Personally I find BoED to be a hack job that failed on just about every level.

I concur for the most part.

Thanks the gods 5e doesn't follow that lore for what good is like.



I think what authors have to be able to do is explain the difference between Good, the cosmic concept, and goodness as practiced by mortals and denizens of the Prime.

In 5e, there isn't really a difference. Good is good.

Also worth noting that the cosmic war between Law and Chaos pretty much ended with good winning, for as much as an "ending" or a "win" is possible, given that the Upper Planes managed to pull out of the conflict while the Blood War continues and messes with the agendas of Fiends.

[Millstone85]

And angels aren't police, they're more like border patrol. They only watch the outer boundary of the universe. Everything else is part of that effort.Well, you called them police, and said they were also defending the world from "internal (planar) threats".

It is, of course, fine to then precise that the emphasis is actually on the border patrolling.


I think what authors have to be able to do is explain the difference between Good, the cosmic concept, and goodness as practiced by mortals and denizens of the Prime.
In 5e, there isn't really a difference. Good is good.My cynical-but-not-too-cynical take would be that one is idealized good, or seven distinct sets of ideals regarding good, shaped by collective belief in the concept. The Upper Planes are regularly tested, perhaps through the Ordial Plane and certainly through interactions with the Material, but still largely follow simple notions of kindness, fairness, righteous wrath and so on.


Also worth noting that the cosmic war between Law and Chaos pretty much ended with good winning, for as much as an "ending" or a "win" is possible, given that the Upper Planes managed to pull out of the conflict while the Blood War continues and messes with the agendas of Fiends.And so in addition, the Upper Planes could have started as places of mutual understanding between Law and Chaos, in contrast with the simple cease-fire of the Middle Planes and the ongoing conflict of the Lower Planes, then later beliefs had good people go there when they die.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

In 5e, there isn't really a difference. Good is good.

Which is a problem for Planescape, I think, but it's a nice simple choice to make and helps make Planescape into something that can be run with a 64-page booklet.

[Aleroth]

I really love Sigil, and the central concept of the factions, these philosophical guilds teetering on the edge of being criminals or cultists, yet also fulfilling an important part of Sigil's government... but felt like they were pretty hard to put into practice in the original 2e Planescape setting. Too many factions came off as caricatures or strawmen of stuff the authors didn't like, or as pastiches of player archetypes (rules lawyers, 'lolsorandom CN' players, etc), and their beliefs were sometimes so extreme that mixing in different factions into the same party seemed ill advised at best.

I hope WotC would try to experiment with moving the setting forward in an interesting way, rather than just retreading old ground, though frankly after Spelljammer I don't have much faith in them either reinventing the setting in a cool way *or* faithfully recreating what used to be. In terms of the thread question...

I think they'll ignore Die Vecna Die, though the Faction War will probably stay. More emphasis on Sigil, less emphasis on the Planes, since there's so many planes to adventure in and it's just plain easier to write around a constrained location rather than infinite realms built on belief. I'd really appreciate if they put some effort into making the good planes more interesting to adventure in, though I won't hold my breath.