Can an improvissed weapon have the finesse quality?

[FabulousFizban]

Can a rogue sneak attack with an improvised weapon? (Let's say they took the tavern brawler feat)

[Unoriginal]

Can a rogue sneak attack with an improvised weapon? (Let's say they took the tavern brawler feat)

If the DM rules that it should be treated like an existing weapon with Finesse, sure.

But in that case Tavern Brawler doesn't change anything.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If the DM rules that it should be treated like an existing weapon with Finesse, sure.

But in that case Tavern Brawler doesn't change anything.

I agree with this. If it's treated as an existing weapon, then TB is irrelevant (it's not an improvised weapon). If it's an improvised weapon, it has no properties.

[strangebloke]

yeah improvised weapons can have any property. The key is that they don't necessarily retain properties from how you'd use them conventionally. So an improvised club (that was a longbow) isn't necessarily two handed or ranged.

[stoutstien]

IMO, sure as long as it makes sense. It's not worth examining past that because it gets real murky real quickly.

Particularly when we're talking about sneak attack the actual damage dealt by the weapon is so inconsequential it's not worth the brain space.

[clash]

If the improvised weapon closely resembles a finesse weapon say a steak knife resembling a dagger then it is treated as such and tavern breaker is not required. Otherwise it can't have finesse. As a dm I would allow it off you took tavern brawler. It's 1d4. It won't break anything.

[KorvinStarmast]

Can a rogue sneak attack with an improvised weapon? (Let's say they took the tavern brawler feat) No, unless the DM thinks that this is a cool idea.

[Sigreid]

Concur with most of this. Anything sufficiently balanced for a fight to have finesse is just a weapon.

[Zetakya]

As long as it makes sense.

Sneak Attack in a tavern brawl with a broken bottle? Sure, go for it.

Sneak Attack in a tavern brawl with a chair? Nuh-uh.

[Greywander]

Can a rogue sneak attack with an improvised weapon? (Let's say they took the tavern brawler feat)
RAW, no. I don't really see why they added this restriction, especially when rogues get longsword proficiency. But they did, so it's RAW.

I wrote up a homebrew wandering merchant subclass that (a) can Sneak Attack with improvised weapons, (b) can use items as a BA like the thief, including throwing vials of acid and the like, and (c) can create a limited number of items such as acid out of thin air, not unlike spending ki or spell slots to create an effect. Haven't had a chance to playtest it yet, and it looks a little weak on paper, but it looks like it would be fun.

Your best bet is to simply ask your DM to allow Sneak Attacks with improvised weapons, especially if you're burning a feat on Tavern Brawler. I'd probably allow it. But outside of homebrew or house rules, your only option is to refluff a finesse weapon to look like an improvised weapon.

[Leon]

Given its a fairly arbitrary limitation (like a lot of things in 5e) if you and your DM deem it suitable weapon for a rogue to catch a target unawares then yes

[greenstone]

Can a rogue sneak attack with an improvised weapon? (Let's say they took the tavern brawler feat)

THe answer will depend on the object in question.

What object do you think should have the finesse tag yet is unlike any weapon on the weapon list?

[Snowbluff]

Can a rogue sneak attack with an improvised weapon? (Let's say they took the tavern brawler feat)

Yes.

Though your question and your title are different questions. The answer to both is yes though.

An improvised weapon can be finesse if the DM rules it is similar to an existing weapon.

An improvised weapon can be ranged, because an improvised weapon is a weapon and therefore must be melee or ranged by RAW. It stands to reason that it can meet the ranged weapon requirement. When and how you make the this determination might be a bit of a shrug, depending on how you read it. Probably by chucking whatever at a person means you're using the weapon more than 5' away to meet that definition.


RAW, no. I don't really see why they added this restriction, especially when rogues get longsword proficiency. But they did, so it's RAW.

I wrote up a homebrew wandering merchant subclass that (a) can Sneak Attack with improvised weapons, (b) can use items as a BA like the thief, including throwing vials of acid and the like, and (c) can create a limited number of items such as acid out of thin air, not unlike spending ki or spell slots to create an effect. Haven't had a chance to playtest it yet, and it looks a little weak on paper, but it looks like it would be fun.


Also I'm saying Flask Rogue is RAW already. A thrown flask is an improvised weapon and is therefor a weapon that is being thrown past 5' and is therefor a ranged weapon.

[Greywander]

An improvised weapon can be ranged, because an improvised weapon is a weapon and therefore must be melee or ranged by RAW.
[...]
Also I'm saying Flask Rogue is RAW already. A thrown flask is an improvised weapon and is therefor a weapon that is being thrown past 5' and is therefor a ranged weapon.
This is somewhat ambiguous, but still worth noting. There are two main schools of thought on this. One says that every weapon must be either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon, and that includes improvised weapons. So yes, a ranged improvised weapon would qualify for Sneak Attack. The other school of thought says that improvised weapons are not weapons, and thus don't have any weapon properties. The improvised weapon rules merely provide a method for making attacks with non-weapons. In this case, an improvised weapon is neither a melee nor ranged weapon, because it isn't a weapon at all.

Do note that the vial of acid only says to make a ranged attack with it, and that it counts as an improvised weapon. At no point does it specify whether it is a melee or ranged weapon. Personally, I suspect the latter school is what's meant to be RAW: that improvised weapons don't count as weapons at all. However, I think this is a bit silly, as there are several features that require a weapon that should logically work with improvised weapons. Furthermore, if you burn a feat for improvised weapon proficiency, then improvised weapons really should be treated as weapons for you. If I were to tweak the rules I'd probably change things to key off of weapons with which you have proficiency. So things like smites or Stunning Strikes or Booming Blades or Sneak Attacks would work with any weapon you're proficient with, but not ones you're not. This way, Tavern Brawler allows you to use improvised weapons for these features, whereas you wouldn't normally be able to.

In the end, you'll have to ask your DM which of these two schools they subscribe to. If the former, and if they consider thrown vials of acid to be ranged weapons, then you're golden. If the latter, well, at your table at least there is no RAW way to Sneak Attack with improvised weapons. It doesn't hurt to ask them to bend the rules for you, though; the worst they can do is say no.

It also bothers me that you can't Sneak Attack with saps, which are basically clubs. Realistic or not, it's still a staple trope in fiction where a sneaky character will knock people out from behind with a sap, or sometimes a simple crude club. If it's not a knife to the ribs or a slit throat then it's probably blunt force trauma to the back of the head, something that 5e simply doesn't allow in a Sneak Attack. Not to mention the more niche karate chop to the neck, which also isn't an option for Sneak Attack.

[Derges]

As long as it makes sense.

Sneak Attack in a tavern brawl with a broken bottle? Sure, go for it.

Sneak Attack in a tavern brawl with a chair? Nuh-uh.

I do not disagree with this however I'm saddened that we still don't have a brutal type of rogue who can sneak attack with things like this. let's face it chairs as sneaky weapons exist in pop culture.

I feel like *boo hiss* 4e had something like it?

[Leon]

I do not disagree with this however I'm saddened that we still don't have a brutal type of rogue who can sneak attack with things like this. let's face it chairs as sneaky weapons exist in pop culture.

I feel like *boo hiss* 4e had something like it?

If your open to unofficial content take inspiration from Solasta and its subclasses, it has a rather nice Rogue one called Hoodlum (and a number of other more interesting than WotC subclasses for other classes aswell although im not sure where outside of the game toy can see a rundown of the subclass)

[Psyren]

If your open to unofficial content take inspiration from Solasta and its subclasses, it has a rather nice Rogue one called Hoodlum (and a number of other more interesting than WotC subclasses for other classes aswell although im not sure where outside of the game toy can see a rundown of the subclass)

+1, Solasta has some interesting subclasses that I'm looking to steal for PnP games. (Way of Survival Monk looks quite strong.)


THe answer will depend on the object in question.

What object do you think should have the finesse tag yet is unlike any weapon on the weapon list?

+1 to this as well.

[Snowbluff]

+1, Solasta has some interesting subclasses that I'm looking to steal for PnP games. (Way of Survival Monk looks quite strong.)



Just gonna third the general Solasta appreciation. Definition one of my favorite CRPG of all time.