This thread focus on problem solving on D&D 3.5 character creation.

[EdenNotRaven]

Hello guys,
First, let me tell you the details,
Second, the problem itself.
And then, please help me solve the problem.

1. In the campaign I play right now, I play a Synad, Psychic Warrior 10, and ECL 11 (DM said this is worth +1 LA because the rest of the party is not psionic, and this is not the issue.), I play as a frontline defender with a Trip strategy with a halberd. - this is very nice.
Now, I'm afraid that I will die during a mission because, in the last mission, I survived on 20 hp, and leveled up to 10...
Ok, So... let's go next:
1.5. The next character is Human, with a Half-Red Dragon template (LA +3), Paladin of Tyranny 6 (Variant of Paladin), and Blackguard 2.
I want to use the next 5 books: PHB - Human (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#humans), MM1 - Half-Dragon template (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm), DMG - Blackguard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm), - Unearthed Arcana - Paladin Variant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny), Draconomicon - Dragonsteed (https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Dragon_Steed).
Paladin of Tiamat, that become Blackguard, Red dragon always should be chaotic evil, but the DM said it's not necessary and he can be lawful evil.

Now! The Problem:
DM House Rules: 3 Books, including PHB itself.
So, I need to see how I can make what I want with 3 books only.



Please help me guys, the DM said this is the rule and I need to respect that.



Happy Passover \ Easter \ and Ramadan Holidays!
Best Regards,
Eden

[EdenNotRaven]

Ok so...
PHB - I must because there are no humans in any of the other books from what I know, so I'll go Human, and take it, it's the best race in the game I think, and there's nothing on PHB2.
MM1 - I must take it for the half-dragon template, there is no option.
On Draconomicon, this is additional to the template, but not necessary, the only necessary, is the Dragon steed Feat I want. - https://imgur.com/vaC6jzK
DMG - I must take it to become a blackguard, and service Tiamat.

Now, If I use, PHB, DMG, and MM1, I'm unable to use Draconomicon, and Unearthed Arcana... Which makes my character idea useless.
Idk what to do.
If I lose Unearthed Arcana, with No special mount access, and no option for lawful evil character... I'll go barbarian level 6 and will take heavy armor proficiency feat, but chaotic evil will never work with the party I got now, Chaotic evil can't hide his alignment with roleplay like lawful evil.
If I lose Draconomicon and no special mount access, I'll lose interest in dragon steed, which I want very much.

This is not fair!
I don't know what to do.
Can somebody help?

[Khedrac]

I think the first question is "what do you want from each of these features?"

For example, there is a lot of overlap between Blackguard and Paladin of Tyranny so why do you want to be both?
Note: you shouldn't need to take DMG to serve Tiamat, the gods of a setting should be part of the setting and not linked to having to select a book with them in - talk that one over with your DM.

So far I can tell that you want some form of evil draconic knight riding a draconic mount, but I don't know why you wan the half-dragon template not he draconic template (even if the abilities are lesser, the Lower LA is usually more important and I think you might need fewer books using it).

So, please describe the features of the character you want to play and we can then suggest options which might (or might not ) appeal>

[EdenNotRaven]

I think the first question is "what do you want from each of these features?"

For example, there is a lot of overlap between Blackguard and Paladin of Tyranny so why do you want to be both?
Note: you shouldn't need to take DMG to serve Tiamat, the gods of a setting should be part of the setting and not linked to having to select a book with them in - talk that one over with your DM.

So far I can tell that you want some form of an evil draconic knight riding a draconic mount, but I don't know why you want the half-dragon template, not the draconic template (even if the abilities are lesser, the Lower LA is usually more important and I think you might need fewer books using it).

So, please describe the features of the character you want to play and we can then suggest options that might (or might not ) appeal>

Dear Khedrac, Thank you for your comment.

: I'll answer the question
what do you want from each of these features?

Well, Let's begin:
The most important thing is ECL - Level 11.

Race - Human, as the basic humanoid creature, I like this race, and I want to have the extra feat and have the extra skill points, this is very nice, and this is a medium creature.

Template - Half Red-Dragon, takes a lot of LA, yes, this is true, but what it gives in return... is wonderful.
Gives +4 Natural armor.
Gives Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, and Cha +2 Abilities - Which is incredible.
Gives the Human dark vision out to 60 feet and low-light vision - what the human missing.
Gives immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and an additional immunity based on its dragon variety - Fire element.
Gives breath weapon, 30-foot cone of fire, deals 6d8 points of damage.
Gives natural weapons - Bite Damage 1d6 and Claw Damage 1d4, Which can be useful without weapons.
The human type changes to a dragon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType).

That's it for the template, +3 is a lot, but it deserves it.

Paladin of Tyranny, Level 6 - The option to be Lawful Evil, to work well with most of the Chaotic Neutral party, I got also 1 Lawful Neutral and 2 Lawful Good characters.
Chaotic Evil roleplay with make everyone hates me.
Also, I like the contagion and the option for Special Mount, and Still, be Paladin of Tyranny.
If I replace it with Barbarian, I must be Neutral Evil - Which I hate this alignment or Chaotic Evil... I don't want to be, Because is far away from what.
But let's look over the class features:
Aura of evil - Wonderful.
Detect good - Gives me the option to see who is good in the party, and how to role-play with him, or if we have good enemies, I can make them suffer when they try to attack us with:
Smite Good 2/day - Adds CHA vs good characters? I will be happy to do this.
Deadly touch - causes wounds when grappling the enemy, this is very adorable, and beautiful to see how my enemies suffer there.
Aura of despair - got it with the blackguard, which does not make stuck - causes enemies within 10 feet of my character to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws. - great for me.
Divine health - gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases. - Do I need to explain more?
Rebuke undead - My DM hate this mechanic, so she replaces this with a feat, which is great.
Cause disease 1/week - I do not need to explain how I can people who turn against me suffer from something like the coronavirus.

Spellcasting - It's ok but not needed.

The role-play basic:

Code of conduct:
A paladin of tyranny must be of lawful evil alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of tyranny's code requires that he respect authority figures as long as they have the strength to rule over the weak, act with discipline (not engaging in random slaughter, keeping firm control over those beneath his station, and so forth), help only those who help him maintain or improve his status, and punish those who challenge authority (unless, of course, such challengers prove more worthy to hold that authority).

Associates:
While he may adventure with characters of any evil or neutral alignment, a paladin of tyranny will never knowingly associate with good characters unless it serves his needs, nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A paladin of tyranny may accept henchmen and followers of any alignment, but may only accept cohorts who are lawful evil.


The Blackguard! :
Level 2 right now.
The option to role-play is even better because you're not only a paladin, but a blackguard of Tiamat... allowing you to role-play even deeper.
I'll skip what I get in these levels that I got with the Paladin of Tyranny.
Poison Use - Wonderful to kill enemies and those who betray me, and for more reasons.
Dark Blessing - Amazing, just amazing.
Gives more Smite Good.
Another good spellcasting.

In the next levels:
Command Undead - My DM hates this mechanic and will replace this with the feat, which is great.
Sneak Attack - Really great with cleave.
Fiendish Servant - Amazing feature, which goes great with Dragon Steed.
More Smite Good per day.

Draconomicon:
Dragon Steed feat - gets well with Fiendish Servant and Special Mount.
I can't use it because I'm level 8, but it will inspire me to play and have fun and motivate me to be the greatest me, to get my Dragonnel, which gives me wings when I'm not bigger yet to have my own wings.

In the future, after level 5 blackguard - start the Talon of Tiamat prestige class.
To serve her well, and make her grant new powers!

[Khedrac]

Hmm, to be honest because you have listed class features it's less helpful than I hoped. My mistake - I didn't properly explain what I meant by "abilities.

First off, The alternative paladin spellcasting is, quite frankly poor (and as a PoT 6 you only have first level spells).
Pretty much all of the good Paladin spells were added by other books so are not in the alternaive paladin lists. The Blackguard is slightly beter off as they also had spells added though not as many, but as a PoT 6 BG 2 you have first level spells only - there is little point in this.
I suspect you would be much better off by starting as Paladin and having a background in which you fell and became a blackguard - that would give you BG 8 - much better, though the main loss is divine health.

Most of you touch abilities DCs will be low enough to make them of limited use in combat (oh, and don't assume you will automatically hit with a touch attack in a grapple - you still need to make the attack roll) Diseases particularly as very slow - they are mainly for the DM to use on you, people you will want to infect you will prbably just kill first.

Anyway, how do you see you character? - A mounted combat specialist, a spellcasting knight of evil or what?
I think there's a good chance that a Crusader build might work better for you reducing the number of books required, then we just need to work out how to make you draconic-featued (perhaps a dragonborn of bahamut as race which gives breath-weapon and would fit with a fallen paladin theme) or similar. If you can describe the character you want rather than the class features people might be able to come up with fun potential builds for you.

[Akal Saris]

Well, based on your book limitations, if you can only use 3 books, then my advice is to use the PHB, UA, and Draconomicon, and to use the Dragon Cohort feat instead of Dragon Mount, because with your prestige class levels you will get a much better mount from Dragon Cohort.

ECL 11: Human Paladin of Tyranny 5/Talon of Tiamat 6.

Below is an example build, assuming that you're building a mounted charger.

Feats:
1: Power Attack
1: Dragonthrall [Hmn] (prerequisite for Talon of Tiamat)
3: Mounted Combat
4: Ride-by Attack [replacing Command Undead]
6: Spirited Charge
9: Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon)

Dragon Cohort can get you a wyrmling red dragon (medium sized) or a wyvern (large size) at ECL 11. At ECL 14 you could have a very young red dragon (large size).

Talon of Tiamat isn't particularly strong, but I had a lot of fun playing one (my character was a half-dragon bard/talon of tiamat).

Good luck!

[RNightstalker]

Is this character build for a potential replacement character in case your current one dies or for the next game?

[Zarvistic]

You could drop the template and go for paladin 11, then trade in 10 levels for blackguard levels. That leaves you with some nice features and still would have space for 1 more book to start a new prestige class.

[pabelfly]

Template - Half Red-Dragon, takes a lot of LA, yes, this is true, but what it gives in return... is wonderful.
Gives +4 Natural armor.
Gives Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, and Cha +2 Abilities - Which is incredible.
Gives the Human dark vision out to 60 feet and low-light vision - what the human missing.
Gives immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and an additional immunity based on its dragon variety - Fire element.
Gives breath weapon, 30-foot cone of fire, deals 6d8 points of damage.
Gives natural weapons - Bite Damage 1d6 and Claw Damage 1d4, Which can be useful without weapons.
The human type changes to a dragon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType).
That's it for the template, +3 is a lot, but it deserves it.

A few observations about templates:
Lower-LA templates usually have better bang-for-your-buck. I can combine three LA 1 templates that far outperform one LA 3 template. Probably less relevant since you have limited source material, but still worth considering
Template bonuses matter less at higher levels. 6d8 damage is amazing at level 1. At level 10, it's maybe half the health of an ECL 10 melee opponent if you're lucky.
You lose three levels of character progression for a LA 3 template. Losing caster progression, even if it's Paladin casting, is something that should at least make you pause.

This thread (which tiers some templates) might also be of interest: https://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=7044.0. Definitely needs work but not a bad starting reference

Secondly, I would check out the Dragonspawn template (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, p222) as an alternate template if you want to get some draconic flavour to your character. It has varying levels of Level Adjustment, but the LA 1 version gives you better natural armor, a flight speed, bite and claw attacks and darkvision. The LA 3 version has all of that, plus a better stat bonus than half-dragon does.

Anyway, good luck building your character

[lylsyly]

Secondly, I would check out the Dragonspawn template (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, p222) as an alternate template if you want to get some draconic flavour to your character. It has varying levels of Level Adjustment, but the LA 1 version gives you better natural armor, a flight speed, bite and claw attacks and darkvision. The LA 3 version has all of that, plus a better stat bonus than half-dragon does.

Totally right if the OP has access to the book. For the same LA you can get blue dragonspawn, +7 NA, casting as a 1st level sorcerer which would allow you to use wands, ect. of sorc/wiz spells without UMD, flight at twice your base speed, +6 STR, +4 CON, +2 WIS, +4 CHA, A breath weapon pretty much on par with half dragon but usable every 2d4 rounds not 1/day. And thematically a fit because they were created to serve Tiamat. If you take the LA +1 or +2 versions you still get everything but with less Ability Score Bonuses! This could allow you to squeeze in more class levels. (Yes, I love me some dragonspawn, used it many times over the years)

As far as blackguard prc goes it was kinda designed to use on a PHB paladin so I would consider that and drop UA for the Spell Conpemdium for better spells.

Good luck ;-)

[Jay R]

You're approaching it backwards.

You have a five-book build, and are only allowed three books. Don't keep going forward with that build. That way only leads to frustration.

Stop trying to find a way to make a five-book build with three books, and instead, try to find an exciting three-book build. This is the rule and you need to respect it. You do that by building within the rule, not by trying to make something illegal fit that build.

Save the five-book build for a later game in which you can do it right.

[EdenNotRaven]

Hmm, to be honest, because you have listed class features it's less helpful than I hoped. My mistake - I didn't properly explain what I meant by "abilities.

First off, The alternative paladin spellcasting is, quite frankly poor (and as a PoT 6 you only have first-level spells).
Pretty much all of the good Paladin spells were added by other books so they are not in the alternative Paladin lists. The Blackguard is slightly better off as they also had spells added though not as many, as a PoT 6 BG 2 you have first-level spells only - there is little point in this.
I suspect you would be much better off by starting as Paladin and having a background in which you fell and became a blackguard - that would give you BG 8 - much better, though the main loss is divine health.

Most of your touch abilities DCs will be low enough to make them of limited use in combat (oh, and don't assume you will automatically hit with a touch attack in a grapple - you still need to make the attack roll) Diseases, particularly as very slow - they are mainly for the DM to use on you, people you will want to infect you will probably just kill first.

Anyway, how do you see your character? - A mounted combat specialist, a spellcasting knight of evil, or what?
I think there's a good chance that a Crusader build might work better for you reducing the number of books required, then we just need to work out how to make you draconic-featured (perhaps a Dragonborn of Bahamut as a race that gives breath-weapon and would fit with a fallen paladin theme) or similar. If you can describe the character you want rather than the class features people might be able to come up with fun potential builds for you.

Dear Khedrac, Thank you for your wonderful comment! I've read all, I will answer these questions:
1. I used the lawful evil handbook to imagine the character I play... Let me give you the details with "on the tip of the tongue" from the backstory: A Human, Half-Red Dragon, Named whatever... was born to a human mother and a red dragon father. His parents were deeply in love and hoped to raise their child together, despite the challenges posed by their different genders.

their happiness was short-lived. When he was only a few years old, his father was killed by a group of adventurers who saw him as a threat to their town. His mother was devastated by the loss of her husband and struggled to raise him on her own.

One day, when he was a boy, he encountered a group of Tiamat worshippers. They saw his dragon blood as a sign of his worth and offered him a place among them. he was desperate for a sense of belonging and acceptance, and he accepted the offer.

from here, he becomes Tiamat's Paladin of Tyranny, who makes what he should do to serve his goddess, and after that, he is raised to a new rank, Blackguard of Tiamat.

2. a Paladin, with little powers from Tiamat, to use what he needs to serve her right. In the next levels, he develops to become greater, and he will prevail!
3. He's a Human, Half-Red Dragon, with a Full plate colored black, Has Axe, and Shield.


Well, based on your book limitations, if you can only use 3 books, then my advice is to use the PHB, UA, and Draconomicon, and to use the Dragon Cohort feat instead of Dragon Mount because, with your prestige class levels, you will get a much better mount from Dragon Cohort.

ECL 11: Human Paladin of Tyranny 5/Talon of Tiamat 6.

Below is an example build, assuming that you're building a mounted charger.

Feats:
1: Power Attack
1: Dragonthrall [Hmn] (a prerequisite for Talon of Tiamat)
3: Mounted Combat
4: Ride-by Attack [replacing Command Undead]
6: Spirited Charge
9: Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon)

Dragon Cohort can get you a wyrmling red dragon (medium-sized) or a wyvern (large-size) at ECL 11. At ECL 14 you could have a very young red dragon (large size).

Talon of Tiamat isn't particularly strong, but I had a lot of fun playing one (my character was a half-dragon bard/talon of Tiamat).

Good luck!

Dear Akal Saris, Thank you for your comment! I've read everything, and I can say, this is very cool to do. I'll try to see how I can use it.
Dragon Cohort will lock me into the LE cohort, and this is why I can't get everything, But I'll dig down to see what I do...

This rule makes me think, like a lawyer... how to break the rule without breaking it really, this is very hard... But I'm sure we will find a way!


Is this character build for a potential replacement character in case your current one dies or for the next game?

Dear RNightstalker, Yes! This is what I want if my character dies because of dice rolls or because of battle... Right now I'm on 20 HP... we don't know what will happen in this Friday session.


You could drop the template and go for paladin 11, then trade in 10 levels for blackguard levels. That leaves you with some nice features and still would have space for 1 more book to start a new prestige class.

Dear Zarvistic, Why drop the template? But you know what? You give me the idea... Maybe become Paladin of Tyranny) Tiamat until level 11, and then make something good... lose the powers, make a scene where I will pray and ask for my goddess forgiveness, and will get the Blackguard class! but... Then I lose divine health... :-( I don't want to lose


A few observations about templates:
Lower-LA templates usually have better bang for your buck. I can combine three LA 1 templates that far outperform one LA 3 template. Probably less relevant since you have limited source material, but still worth considering
Template bonuses matter less at higher levels. 6d8 damage is amazing at level 1. At level 10, it's maybe half the health of an ECL 10 melee opponent if you're lucky.
You lose three levels of character progression for a LA 3 template. Losing caster progression, even if it's Paladin casting, is something that should at least make you pause.

This thread (which tiers some templates) might also be of interest: https://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=7044.0. Needs work but not a bad starting reference

Secondly, I would check out the Dragonspawn template (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, p222) as an alternate template if you want to get some draconic flavor to your character. It has varying levels of Level Adjustment, but the LA 1 version gives you better natural armor, a flight speed, bite and claw attacks, and dark vision. The LA 3 version has all of that, plus a better stat bonus than Half-Dragon does.

Anyway, good luck building your character

Dear pabelfly, Thank you for your comment! I've read everything, and even enter the link to read and understand that this template is not amazing, but this is OK for me, I don't need to be the strongest or the evilest thing in the room \ Party. I just want to have fun and have fun with the role-play of my character.

Dragonspawn is strong, more than a half-dragon template.
But I don't see how I can get Blackguard class from the Dragonlance book...


Right if the OP has access to the book. For the same LA, you can get blue dragon spawn, +7 NA, casting as a 1st-level sorcerer which would allow you to use wands, etc. of sorc/wiz spells without UMD, flight at twice your base speed, +6 STR, +4 CON, +2 WIS, +4 CHA, A breath weapon pretty much on par with half dragon but usable every 2d4 rounds not 1/day. And thematically a fit because they were created to serve Tiamat. If you take the LA +1 or +2 versions you still get everything but with fewer Ability Score Bonuses! This could allow you to squeeze in more class levels. (Yes, I love some Dragonspawn, I used it many times over the years)

As far as Blackguard PRC goes it was kinda designed to use on a PHB paladin so I would consider that and drop UA for the Spell Compendium for better spells.

Good luck ;-)

Dear lylsyly, Thank you for your comment.
I want to play Half-Red Dragon, and not Half-Blue Dragon... yeah +7 NA is amazing.

I cannot use Spell Compendium, the DM does not approve.


You're approaching it backward.

You have a five-book build and are only allowed three books. Don't keep going forward with that build. That way only leads to frustration.

Stop trying to find a way to make a five-book build with three books, and instead, try to find an exciting three-book build. This is the rule and you need to respect it. You do that by building within the rule, not by trying to make something illegal fit that builds.

Save the five-book build for a later game in which you can do it right.

Dear Jay R, I know.
I know I can't use this build... I also wanted to use PHB2 and then I was seen how hard it is because it's a reference to PHB1.
DM told me I can't replace PHB with other books that are similar to PHB.


Thank you, everyone!
I hope to hear from you!
Best Regards,
Eden

[pabelfly]

From what I’ve gathered, we want to be a Lawful Evil paladin-type character, that’s also part-dragon, that also rides on a dragon. And we want to do it with three books, one of which is PHB.

I’d suggest the following three books to do it:

PHB, Human, Paladin class
Unearthed Arcana – paladin of Tyranny variant, a LE variant of Paladin.
Dragonlance Campaign Setting – Dragon Rider prestige class, Dragonspawn template or Draconic races

Race: We can go with a PHB race and get a Dragonspawn template, or we can go with the Kapak or Baaz from Dragonlance Campaign Setting. These are two draconic races with 2RHD and either 1 or 2 LA. If we go with a DCS Dragon race, we can do eight levels of Paladin of Tyranny, if we use the template, we need 10 levels of Paladin to get into our prestige class.

Classes:
Paladin of Tyranny is LE Paladin without the need of a book we aren't otherwise using. We don't have enough books to fit the Blackguard, and if we just want an evil Paladin feel this will do quite fine.

Dragon Rider gives us a bonus to leadership for getting dragons on-side, which means we can disregard the Dragonsteed feat.



The only downside of this is that you’ll be at least two levels away from actually getting that dragon mount with an LA 1 option, and further if you want a better template. Maybe you can talk the DM into using Unearthed Arcana's LA buyoff rules to make it just level 11 when you get to start riding a dragon.

But let me know what you think.

[EdenNotRaven]

From what I’ve gathered, we want to be a Lawful Evil paladin-type character, that’s also part-dragon, that also rides on a dragon. And we want to do it with three books, one of which is PHB.

I’d suggest the following three books to do it:

PHB, Human, Paladin class
Unearthed Arcana – paladin of Tyranny variant, a LE variant of Paladin.
Dragonlance Campaign Setting – Dragon Rider prestige class, Dragonspawn template, or Draconic races

Race: We can go with a PHB race and get a Dragonspawn template, or we can go with the Kapak or Baaz from Dragonlance Campaign Setting. These are two draconic races with 2RHD and either 1 or 2 LA. If we go with a DCS Dragon race, we can do eight levels of Paladin of Tyranny, if we use the template, we need 10 levels of Paladin to get into our prestige class.

Classes:
Paladin of Tyranny is LE Paladin without the need for a book we aren't otherwise using. We don't have enough books to fit the Blackguard, and if we just want an evil Paladin to feel this will do quite fine.

Dragon Rider gives us a bonus to leadership for getting dragons on-side, which means we can disregard the Dragonsteed feat.



The only downside of this is that you’ll be at least two levels away from actually getting that dragon mount with an LA 1 option, and further if you want a better template. Maybe you can talk the DM into using Unearthed Arcana's LA buy-off rules to make it just level 11 when you get to start riding a dragon.

But let me know what you think.
Dear pabelfly...
I've talked with my DM, and she said, that dragon lance is not part of her world and that this book is not approved to use.

I'm looking for help \ advice, this is complicated for me.

[pabelfly]

Dear pabelfly...
I've talked with my DM, and she said, that dragon lance is not part of her world and that this book is not approved to use.

I'm looking for help \ advice, this is complicated for me.

Okay, does this work for you?

PHB - Cleric, Human character
Draconomicon - Dragon Steed feat, Tiamat deity
MM1 - Half-Dragon template

Cleric is similar to Paladin in that you have character requirements regarding alignment, you can be a LE character if you want without needing Unearthed Arcana. You're also much stronger than Paladin due to much better spellcasting.

Draconomicon lets us get Dragon Steed feat and has some Cleric domains related to Dragons which are pretty nice flavour for your character. You could also look at the Dragon Rider and Talon of Tiamat classes to see if you like the bonuses there. I'd consider doing Talon of Tiamat since it's very much like your character concept.

Monster Manual 1 lets us pick up the half-dragon template to get our draconic character concept.

Hope this works for your character concept instead.

[Jay R]

Dear Jay R, I know.
I know I can't use this build... I also wanted to use PHB2 and then I was seen how hard it is because it's a reference to PHB1.
DM told me I can't replace PHB with other books that are similar to PHB.

Good luck finding a three-book build.

But save this build. Someday you'll be in a game where this build is legal, and you'll love playing it -- far more than you would enjoy playing a scaled-down version of it now.

I suggest you start over completely, designing something completely different. Under the three-book limit, I would deliberately only use two books, thereby leaving the option to pick something else from any book later.

The best build I know with only two books is the gnome illusionist Shadowcraft Mage. The three most essential aspects are the gnome illusionist substitution levels, the Shadowcraft Mage prestige class, and the Earth Spell feat -- all from Races of Stone. And if you show up with a build that only uses two books (PHB and Races of Stone), then besides being able to add something from any book later, you have also shown the DM that you really respected the three-book limit. [Never underestimate the value of impressing the DM.]

[lylsyly]

Snip......

What your asking us is to snip 5 books down to 3. It's not possible for the character you have envisioned.

As a Buddhist I would tell you to modify your wanting ...

If you are allowed MM4 Perhaps look at Spawn of Tiamat.

Good Luck ;-)

[RNightstalker]

Good luck finding a three-book build.

But save this build. Someday you'll be in a game where this build is legal, and you'll love playing it -- far more than you would enjoy playing a scaled-down version of it now.

I suggest you start over completely, designing something completely different. Under the three-book limit, I would deliberately only use two books, thereby leaving the option to pick something else from any book later.

The best build I know with only two books is the gnome illusionist Shadowcraft Mage. The three most essential aspects are the gnome illusionist substitution levels, the Shadowcraft Mage prestige class, and the Earth Spell feat -- all from Races of Stone. And if you show up with a build that only uses two books (PHB and Races of Stone), then besides being able to add something from any book later, you have also shown the DM that you really respected the three-book limit. [Never underestimate the value of impressing the DM.]


What your asking us is to snip 5 books down to 3. It's not possible for the character you have envisioned.

As a Buddhist I would tell you to modify your wanting ...

If you are allowed MM4 Perhaps look at Spawn of Tiamat.

Good Luck ;-)

I think those guys summed it up quite well. The build you want to play won't fit in your current DM's game, so come up with a build that will and save this build for a game it will fit in.

[EdenNotRaven]

Okay, does this work for you?

PHB - Cleric, Human character
Draconomicon - Dragon Steed feat, Tiamat deity
MM1 - Half-Dragon template

Cleric is similar to Paladin in that you have character requirements regarding alignment, you can be a LE character if you want without needing Unearthed Arcana. You're also much stronger than Paladin due to much better spellcasting.

Draconomicon lets us get Dragon Steed feat and has some Cleric domains related to Dragons which are pretty nice flavour for your character. You could also look at the Dragon Rider and Talon of Tiamat classes to see if you like the bonuses there. I'd consider doing Talon of Tiamat since it's very much like your character concept.

Monster Manual 1 lets us pick up the half-dragon template to get our draconic character concept.

Hope this works for your character concept instead.

Dear pabelfly, you're a genius!
But first, can you me me compare Cleric + Talon of Tiamat vs paladin + blackguard, please?
Who's better? Who wins?
BAB, Saves, Spells, Class features, skills, and calculate everything plus template before rolling dice with dm to understand what we need for those classes more and what we can drop.

Btw, paladin got code of conduct. What about cleric?

Thank you,
Best Regards,
Eden

[pabelfly]

Dear pabelfly, you're a genius!
But first, can you me me compare Cleric + Talon of Tiamat vs paladin + blackguard, please?
Who's better? Who wins?
BAB, Saves, Spells, Class features, skills, and calculate everything plus template before rolling dice with dm to understand what we need for those classes more and what we can drop.

Btw, paladin got code of conduct. What about cleric?

Thank you,
Best Regards,
Eden

Who's most powerful is generally decided by who has the best and most powerful spellcasting, and this doesn't change here. So let's rank what we have here:
1) Cleric, no prestige class or template - ninth-level spellcasting is amazing.
2) Cleric, no prestige class + Half-Dragon - you barely reach eighth-level spellcasting, which is still really powerful
3) Cleric + Half-Dragon + Talon of Tiamat - you'd get 6th-level spells, which is still really solid. The bonuses from Talon of Tiamat don't make up for it but you should take Talon of Tiamat if you want a flavourful class, not a strong one.
4) Paladin + Blackguard - some nice stats but weak spellcasting and few spells. You might reach 4ths at level 20.

Code of conduct - "A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description)."

[Khedrac]

A couple more thoughts for you:

1. If you do want to combine alternative paladins with Blackguard in a build, as the DM if the way blackguard can replace paladin levels can be extended tomn the alternative paladin classes.

2. Consider Tome of Battle for the third book - and ask the DM if you can refluff Ruby Knight Vindicator from Wee Jas to Tiamat? Then you can start out as a cleric/crusader of Tiamat and get "promoted" to Ruby Knight. You can still have either the half-dragon or draconic template on top.

[EdenNotRaven]

Who's most powerful is generally decided by who has the best and most powerful spellcasting, and this doesn't change here. So let's rank what we have here:
1) Cleric, no prestige class or template - ninth-level spellcasting is amazing.
2) Cleric, no prestige class + Half-Dragon - you barely reach eighth-level spellcasting, which is still really powerful
3) Cleric + Half-Dragon + Talon of Tiamat - you'd get 6th-level spells, which is still really solid. The bonuses from Talon of Tiamat don't make up for it but you should take Talon of Tiamat if you want a flavourful class, not a strong one.
4) Paladin + Blackguard - some nice stats but weak spellcasting and few spells. You might reach 4ths at level 20.

Code of conduct - "A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description)."

Dear pabelfly, thank you for your comment!
I've updates to bring to the table.

I've talked with the DM today.
The DM approve to use "half-dragon" template from draconomicon, because it's has a section by itself with additional information and variants.
Which make us leave the MM1 for good.
The second thing, we got now conflict, Unearthed arcana, vs DMG.

What I should do? I really need help.

Thank you for your amazing support!
Best regards,
Eden



A couple more thoughts for you:

1. If you do want to combine alternative paladins with Blackguard in a build, as the DM if the way blackguard can replace paladin levels can be extended tomn the alternative paladin classes.

2. Consider Tome of Battle for the third book - and ask the DM if you can refluff Ruby Knight Vindicator from Wee Jas to Tiamat? Then you can start out as a cleric/crusader of Tiamat and get "promoted" to Ruby Knight. You can still have either the half-dragon or draconic template on top.

Dear Khedrac,
Thank you for your comment, beautiful.

2. Tom of battle is banned book in this campaign.
So I cannot use crusader or ruby knight.

1. I can go with Paladin of Tyranny, and fall, and then replace all class features with blackguard...
B U T, I have talked about this with the DM, and she told me that maybe Tiamat will not let me return as blackguard even if I repair the good thing I've done.
So, I think it's not an good option.
She told I can use DMG for items.

What I can do?

Best regards,
Eden

[pabelfly]

Dear pabelfly, thank you for your comment!
I've updates to bring to the table.

I've talked with the DM today.
The DM approve to use "half-dragon" template from draconomicon, because it's has a section by itself with additional information and variants.
Which make us leave the MM1 for good.
The second thing, we got now conflict, Unearthed arcana, vs DMG.

What I should do? I really need help.

Thank you for your amazing support!
Best regards,
Eden

You shouldn't need Unearthed Arcana or Dungeon Master's Guide. Instead of evil paladin or a blackguard, you are an evil cleric, which only requires the PHB.

Does your three book rule include picking a book for your character's equipment?

[EdenNotRaven]

You shouldn't need Unearthed Arcana or Dungeon Master's Guide. Instead of evil paladin or a blackguard, you are an evil cleric, which only requires the PHB.

Does your three book rule include picking a book for your character's equipment?

Dear pabelfly, thank you for your help and support.

Three book rule, include items from the magic items from this website: https://www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicItems.htm
And items from the books I picked, like draconomicon.

I still don't feel great with begin cleric of Tiamat, I want to be paladin, with small spellcasting and small effort to the team.
Because I'm not wanted to be used, but to use.
I know cleric is tier 1 class, and paladin tier 4 class.
But look on our party:

We got right now, from what I know.

1. Human, duskblade, 11.
2. Human, something with dervish, 11.
3. Human, warlock 11.
4. Tiefling, wizard and something related to bharai the bear goddess.
5. Yuan-ti, monk, and another prestige class that I don't know, I think... But I think he will die next session.

Item compendium and spell compendium is banned to open for players.

[pabelfly]

Dear pabelfly, thank you for your help and support.

Three book rule, include items from the magic items from this website: https://www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicItems.htm
And items from the books I picked, like draconomicon.

I still don't feel great with begin cleric of Tiamat, I want to be paladin, with small spellcasting and small effort to the team.
Because I'm not wanted to be used, but to use.
I know cleric is tier 1 class, and paladin tier 4 class.
But look on our party:

We got right now, from what I know.

1. Human, duskblade, 11.
2. Human, something with dervish, 11.
3. Human, warlock 11.
4. Tiefling, wizard and something related to bharai the bear goddess.
5. Yuan-ti, monk, and another prestige class that I don't know, I think... But I think he will die next session.

Item compendium and spell compendium is banned to open for players.

Now you've managed to get everything else down to one book, there's no reason not to be an evil Paladin if you want to be. You'll need PHB and Unearthed Arcana to get Paladin of Tyranny (Lawful Evil) so those two and Draconomicon will make three books.

[EdenNotRaven]

Now you've managed to get everything else down to one book, there's no reason not to be an evil Paladin if you want to be. You'll need PHB and Unearthed Arcana to get Paladin of Tyranny (Lawful Evil) so those two and Draconomicon will make three books.

Dear pabelfly,
So... Draconomicon, Unearthed Arcana, and PHB.
But I don't want to go paladin after level 6, because I need it's not necessary...
Maybe I'll go prestige?

Best regards,
Eden

[EdenNotRaven]

Update:
DM said in the future she will approve the use of an additional book.
I think I'll wait for this to obtain Blackguard's prestige class.

Thank you.

[pabelfly]

Dear pabelfly,
So... Draconomicon, Unearthed Arcana, and PHB.
But I don't want to go paladin after level 6, because I need it's not necessary...
Maybe I'll go prestige?

Best regards,
Eden


Update:
DM said in the future she will approve the use of an additional book.
I think I'll wait for this to obtain Blackguard's prestige class.

Thank you.

It sounds like you're better off waiting until you can use more sourcebooks. I've done my best to come up with new variations of your idea, but if my suggestions aren't working any more (which is totally fine) then it's time to accept you can't do this character. In the meantime, you might have to come up with another character idea that can be done with three books.