Innapropriate loot and encounters

[HoboKnight]

Hey guys,
I have a lot to unpack here, but I’m sure you’ll be able to give some insight into my(mechanical) conundrum.
I have a party of 4 optimized paladins and 1 highly optimized ranged Fighter. They are lvl 9 and they just delete stuff. Great CC(fear), great saves all around(auras), etc. They are highly optimized group and could easily be considered lvl 11.

Recently they mowed down (have expended some resources, true) nine deadly encounters (devils) with no rest. Some devils had some disadvantage, so let’s say 8 deadly encounters.

Now, I’m making a dungeon. Floor map is not as important, but the story, loot and challenge rating is.

The story:
This is a layered dungeon with first three sublevels cleared by lower level parties. First three levels are thus mostly empty. Fourth level, however, is graveyard of parties. Most lvl 2, 4, 6 parties have fled from there or have been killed. Several members of two lvl 7 parties have been killed in subfloor 4/5. One lvl 9 party was TPKd in subfloor 5.

Meaning:
Loot:
First three floors are pretty much empty as far as loot goes. In the fourth floors, there should be loot remains of a few lvl 2, 4 and 6 deceased party members as well as a few remains of lvl 7 party. On subfloor 5 there should be remains of lvl 7 and TPKd lvl 9 party(their loot).
I did a bunch of random generator rolls, but I got some REALLY UNSATISFACTORY results. One of the thing is, one of the party members is pretty “naked”. While others are sporting optimized gear like adamantium armor, he is seriously lacking behind. I’d love to make the loot with an emphasis of being able to equip a solid paladin at around lvl 9.

So I’m posting a list here, it’s mostly bits and bobs of various levels, I think most of these things are interesting, but nothing really useful.

Monsters:
I rolled up a bunch of monsters(deadly encounter) and am really unhappy with them. I’ll just give one example: I rolled up 2 death tyrants as an encounter. Death tyrants are beholders. They do not suffer competition and would just fight each other. Survivor would make his way on with his disintegration ray. He would amass an army of undead and go to the surface or just go somewhere else underground. Not to mention 5 ft wide corridors are too small for the taste of such monsters. My encounters make no sense. I’d really appreciate a bit of conceptual filtering from a good soul. Purple worms sort of make sense… they hunt a certain area and it makes sense for them to be an encounter.

So, loot and encounters. I'd really appreciate your insight

Lvl 11
1. 4x Cloaker
2. 2x Death Tyrant
3. 1x Mummy Lord, 1x zombie, 1x ogre zombie, 1x wight, 2x wraith
4. 1x mummy lord, 1x Beholder zombie, 1x minotaur skeleton, 1x zombie, 1x ghoul
5. 4x Grick Alpha, 6x Grick
6. 7x vampire spawn(eundead adventurers)
7. 7x Umber Hulk
8. 4x Grick Alpha, 6x Grick
9. RANDOM ENC: 7x Troll, 3x Goblin
+1 dart
+1 spear
Potion of superior healing
Elemental Gem, Yellow Diamond
Spell Scroll of Gentle Repose
Potion of Greater healing
Moon Touched Schimitar
Potion of Healing
Enduring Spellbook
Cast-Off Armor Chain Shirt
Spell Scroll Minor illusion
Potion of Climbing
Lvl 12
1. 13x Flame Skull
2. 3x behir
3. 2x Death Tyrant
4. 3x Guardian Naga
5. 3x Stone Golem
6. 9x Cambion
7. 2x Death Tyrant
8. 2y Purple Wurm
9. RANDOM ENC 3x Behir
Sentinel Shield
Rapier of Vengenace
Sickle of Warning
Elixir of Health
Folding Boat
Oil of Slipperiness
Philter of Love
Spell Scroll of Tashas Mind Whip
Potion of Greater Healing
Potion of Growth
Staff of Flowers
Veteran's Cane
Wand of Scowls
Hat of Vermin
Pot of Awakening
Bead of Refreshment
Pole of Collapsing
Lvl 13
1. 7x Grick Alpha
2. 2x Stone Golem, 4x mage
3. 3x behir
4. 6x Grick Alpha, 4x Grick
5. 6x Cloaker
6. 7x Stone Giant
7. 2x Purple wurm
8. 6x Spirit naga
9. RANDOM ENC 2x Death tyrant
Adamantine Chain shirt
Figurine of Wondrous Power, Silver Raven
Staff of the Python
Light Crossbow of Warning
Potion of Superior Healing
Scroll of Protection from Fiends
Potion of Stone Giant Strength
Portable Hole
Potion of Thunder Resistance
Cap of Water Breathing
Elemental Gem, Yellow Diamond
Spell Scroll of Fortunes's Favor
Potion of Acid Resistance
Wand of Secrets
Rope of Climbing
Alchemy Jug
Spell Scroll Vampiric Touch
Spell scroll Beast Sense
Horn of Silent Alarm
Wand of Smiles
Bead of Nourishment
Bead of Refreshment
Wand of Smiles
Charlatan's Die
Dark Shard Amulet
Shield of Expression
Cloak of Many Fashions

[Unoriginal]

If you don't like the randomly rolled results, you can just re-roll or pick whatever you want instead.


I'm curious about what were those 9 Deadly Devil encounters, if you remember still.


For the Death Tyrants, here's my take:

This place used to be the lair of a Beholder named Mighty Mehizdradle, but they got swarmed by adventuring party a while ago and had a battle Mehizdradle decided to partake in as they were sure they would win... which they did, except the last adventurer alive was an Artificier who tried to escape with an helicopter-like experimental device. That device malfunctioned and exploded as Mehizdradle killed the Artificier, resulting in the Beholder being split in two by a mass of sharp, spinning metal.

The thing is, reality is a funny thing for Beholders, especially inside their lair, and Mehizdradle's sheer refusal to admit they would die in such a ridiculous way was enough to make so they had not... sort of. Each half of Mehizdradle became a Death Tyrant, with one side the Death Tyrant's typical giant skull appearance and the other side a spectral version of the Beholder's original look.

Both halves are independent of each other, but both have the same mind, the same personality and the same goals as the then-alive Mehizdradle, and they (to their own surprise) can't bring themselves to hate each other (due to being the same megalomaniac person split in two), but they still think that this experience of duality is deeply embarrassing, so they simply refuse to acknowledge each other. As such, they simply politely share the same work space, using their powerful Beholder minds and self-knowledge to predict what each other may need/where they may want to go and using that to stay out of each other's ways.

[Keravath]

First comment - if you are the DM designing the dungeon then you don't roll random creatures or challenges - choose what makes sense for the setting or adjust the setting to make sense for what you put in there. It isn't a video game with procedurally generated content. The DM creates it and the DM gets to choose.

Second - devils aren't really as deadly against paladins as others. All the paladins can smite and do extra damage against fiends and by level 9 they have enough extra spell slots to smite a few times. You also didn't mention their equipment. Even "optimized", level 9 characters are fine, even paladins, unless they have cool magical treasure and/or rolled stats that boost their power levels. Any of these paladins have a holy avenger sword by any chance? Also, in terms of saving throws, one paladin is as good as four if they are grouped together since the auras don't stack. In addition, against devils which have magic resistance, the chance of landing those fear spells is greatly reduced.

I am assuming that the "story" of the dungeon with previous parties dying is just lore that you are using to make the dungeon sound dangerous ... but if you want a level 9 party to have TPKed ... you need to put in opponents that could actually have done that.

Have the level 5 of the dungeon inhabited by five Nalfeshnee demons for example (Hit points could be as high as 256/creature - if Nalfeshnee aren't strong enough - pick something more challenging :) ). They are trapped by wards set on the outside of the level and can't leave. They made a mistake killing off the last party to encounter them since they were angry at their imprisonment but have decided to subdue the next party - keep all but one prisoner and send the one out to break the wards and free them - if not they will kill the rest of the prisoners. If the party wins then they were really overpowered and if they get trounced and all knocked unconscious then they have a chance to survive the encounter if the demons take their opportunity to leave when the wards drop leaving the party, perhaps making death saves, behind them. At this point the party still gets the treasure since the demons didn't want it (maybe they have a mission to complete for their lord and master) and perhaps learn that there are threats out there where they need to be more considered in their approach. On the other hand, if they win then the players get an ego boost and the DM learns to put something a bit more challenging in their way.

P.S. Have the opponents use intelligent tactics and focus their attacks on one target at a time.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Mess with them a bit, recalling some evil Liches have 20 intelligence scores.

Let them just plow through some more devils but later meet a good evil Lich/necromancer/spellcaster who sacrifices minions to allow him to stay at range dropping Fireballs.

Or something similar.

Don't tpk them with DM all knowing knowledge but scare them, make it interesting, think, "would a REALLY smart opponent do this".

[solidork]

Whatever you do, just be sure to tell them that the first few floors are already cleared of anything of interest and let them skip to the actual content. In a dungeon setting you're expected to carefully clear every room and doing that when there is nothing interesting to find is one of my pet peeves.

[da newt]

As others have said, random is a little gamey - pick a theme and design something that follows that theme.

If you know what you'd like to give the one Pali, just put it in there (the sentinel shield is an awesome item already), and if you want to challenge a group of paladin and an archer pick some foes that are challenging for them - something immune to fear condition, something that can block vision, something that is most effective at range and can fly, underwater, something resistant to radiant damage, etc and add some lair action, legendary actions and resistances, and don't make everything a fiend or undead.

[JonBeowulf]

Why is there still loot on the dead NPC parties? The gear carried by adventuring parties is always** better than the gear carried by whatever wiped them. The bad guys killed them and just walked away?

** Not always, but close enough.

[Oramac]

Just throwing in my 2 cents here.

First, neither paladins nor ranged fighters have jack squat in the way of AOE damage. CC yes, but not so much in damage. So for monsters, I'd just resurrect all those dead parties as undead minions of a Lich or something. Throw a bunch of Ogre Zombies at them, reflavored as whatever the dead party members were. Perhaps put in a couple of Frost Giant Zombies too (Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, pg 288). According to 5eTools (https://5e.tools/index.html), 2 Frost Giant Zombies and 4 Ogre Zombies is an "Absurd" encounter for four 11th level players. The paladins will do extra damage, but it should still be pretty tough.

Second, I didn't see it mentioned, but keep in mind that the auras don't stack. They only get the best bonus, but not all of them.

Third, I'd just pick loot instead of rolling it. One party member is lagging behind? Cool, here's a couple items specifically for that party member. The trick here is to make sure it doesn't feel like you're just playing favorites or anything.

[J-H]

Stacking on the zombie suggestion, have you ever heard of exploding zombies? When killed, they explode, damaging living creatures in a 15' radius with 4d8 necrotic damage, Dex save half (the dex save is to get behind cover, etc.).

Use terrain... narrow bridges, chasms, vertical tubes for the death tyrant, etc.

[Unoriginal]

Tons of low-CR mooks is indeed very deadly for AoE-lacking parties.

Doubly so if at least some of them have ranged weapons.

Idea: you could add an undead knight of some kind, who offers to duel the Paladin you think lacks magic equipment, and if he wins 1 vs 1 the undead knight formally gives him the armor and weapons they had during the duel.

[Segev]

When rolling loot randomly, I strongly recommend going to the "quirks" tables at the front of the magic item generation section of the DMG (p. 142-3). Roll on each of those, and then think about how they could fit together. Tweak and alter and even be willing to change some of the rules of the magic item to fit with it.

A Ring of Swimming that was one of the first magic items I dropped on a Tomb of Annihilation party rolled up that it could tell the owner the direction of north. I altered that so that the ring and its wearer always floated, and the ring had a compass on it that would rotate the ring in any water so its N pointed north. The wearer could do similar, holding out the ring while floating in water and his body would rotate so the ring pointed north.

Example 1: Cloakers + Cast-off Chain Shirt
For example, in your Level 11 setup, you have some cloakers as an enemy, and I notice some cast-off chainmail as an item. Perhaps one or more of the cloakers, when defeated, can be forced to serve the party, being worn as a cloak that acts as cast-off armor. I rolled on the "Minor Properties" table "Harmonious," but that doesn't apply to non-attuned items. "Guardian" seems like something a living suit of armor might have, though, as the cloaker warns its master of danger, so it gives +2 initiative to the wearer! Nice. Rolling on "quirks," I got "frail," and while having it be fussy and fragile and always getting hurt could be an interesting theme, right below that is "hungry," which requires the item be fed a little blood each day in order to work. And THAT seems VERY fitting for a tamed cloaker!

So, now your cast-off chain shirt is actually a cloaker that will surrender to the party and plead for its life if it is defeated (or close to defeat), and if the party chooses to keep it, it'll serve as a chain shirt that can fly off at the wearer's command, will keep an eye out and give warning when a fight is about to start (granting +2 initiative), but grows petulant and intractable (refusing to be donned) if not fed some blood on a daily basis.


Example 2: Moon-Touched Scimitar
This one doesn't have an obvious monster to associate with it, so I rolled on the "intended user" table and got "drow." Being moon-touched, I think it's probably more likely associated with Elistraee than Lolth, but let's keep going.

On the "history" table, I got "Arcane," suggesting it's made by an arcane order of some sort and likely has their marking.

Continuing, the minor property I got is "delver," which lets it always know the depth beneath the ground and the direction to the nearest staircase or other path to the surface. Goes nicely with it being a drow item, actually.

My initial roll for a quirk came up as "slothful," which doesn't really mesh well with anything else rolled nor the item itself. A second roll gave me "repulsive." The item makes the wielder feel repulsed or disgusted just holding it.


Incidentally, I did a second roll on the "intended wielder" table and got "undead," because you had no drow, but I am going to stick with "drow" because this came together thusly:

One of the two Mummy Lords was a drow Sword Dancer (a gish devoted to Elistraee) who was in a party that delved this level and ultimately died. The other Mummy Lord was a drow priestess of Lolth whose tomb this whole level is. She directed her minions at the sword dancer in particular, making sure to slay her, so she could desecrate the holy scimitar devoted to Elistraee into a weapon corrupted by Lolth. It still bears Elistraee's mark, but now obscured by etchings from spider venom that make web-like patterns. It still glows with moonlight, and it still points to the nearest staircase or way back up, but if it is ever exposed to the light of the sun, it will be destroyed. The corruption of Lolth loathes the heroic intentions of Elistraee, and the original purpose of bringing Elistraee's light into the underdark loathes what it has become, causing anybody who wields it to be disgusted by it. The Sword Dancer Mummy Lord wields it, and cannot let it go. The bandages of the Mummy Lord wrap around the sword as a sheathe for it when it is not in use.

Example 3: Yellow Diamond Elemental Gem, an ornamental item for the Priestess of Lolth Mummy Lord
I rolled "water elemental" for intended user, "ornament" for history, "wicked" for its minor property, and "confident" for the quirk.

This yellow diamond is encased in a case of unmelting ice that is textured like fish scales and gives a blue coloring where the scales are thickest (letting the yellow through where they are thinner). A Marid kidnapped and imprisoned a Dao rival's son within this gem, and the petulant child rages within, taking glee only when the weilder inflicts cruelty on the world around it as a means of sharing its misery at imprisonment. The smug confidence of a marid lord fills the wearer, especially when the dao child's cruel desires are catered to.

If ever shattered, the dao child (who has stagnated and possibly even grown weaker and more stupid or insane or both in its confinement) has the stats of an Earth Elemental and is cowed by the concentrated will of its liberator into obedience, unless that concentration is broken and the confidence of the liberator is thus displayed to be too weak, in which case the dao child rages uncontrolled and revels in as much destruction as it can get away with before the duration of its summoning is up and it finally escapes home to the elemental plane of Earth.




I hope these examples give some ideas for how you might tie your random loot to your monsters and give them more interesting themes!

[Oramac]

When rolling loot randomly, I strongly recommend going to the "quirks" tables at the front of the magic item generation section of the DMG (p. 142-3). Roll on each of those, and then think about how they could fit together. Tweak and alter and even be willing to change some of the rules of the magic item to fit with it.

Example 1: Cloakers + Cast-off Chain Shirt

Example 2: Moon-Touched Scimitar

Example 3: Yellow Diamond Elemental Gem, an ornamental item for the Priestess of Lolth Mummy Lord

These are freakin awesome! I'm totally going to use this idea in my own games.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

For loot, it's already been said: stop rolling. Figure out who needs a little bump and make sure there's a good item for them. Then put in a few more minor items; it seems like your group doesn't need more power.

For encounters, there are a number of ways of making things difficult on one side or the other; some groups are really good at utilizing tactics that trivialize encounters. My top 3 would be Surprise, Darkness, and Range/Kiting. With the group you've got It's possible they could be vulnerable to all 3, though you mentioned the Devils being a cake walk, so I'm guessing most/ all of them can deal with magical darkness. If not, creating a situation where the Devils (with Devil Sight) get advantage and the party gets disadvantage is great. The party, on paper is a big, clanking, pile of metal, so there's a good chance the enemy hears them coming, so surprise them. Third, Paladins are generally poorer at range, so stay away; this, in combination with hordes (as others have mentioned) should be effective. Using these 3 things in combination should help big time; Surprise the party with a bunch of winged whatevers and fill them full of arrows. Good luck.

[tchntm43]

I use my own random generators a lot for encounters and treasure as well. But remember that you are the DM and you don't have to accept the results. Just take out one of those Death Tyrants and give it a bunch of undead minions instead. Wraiths and Wights are good options, and if you want to really be a jerk add a Will-o-the-Wisp or two.

Most random generators lack the depth needed to make good encounters. They may not have a concept of minions and allies built in, and instead always give a result that is X <creatures all of the same type>. Most generators do not allow for regular monsters to rarely have basic magic items (like a goblin with a healing potion or an orc lucky enough to have a +1 weapon).

[HoboKnight]

Okay. So many great contributions here, I'll try to answer most.

@Unoriginal

8x Deadly Fiends

1.

5x Spined devil

2x Berarded devil

2x Hellhound

2.

3x Barbed Devil

2x Spined devil

3.

2x Chasme

4x Spined devil

4.

1x Chain devil

5xSpined devil

5.

1x Horned devil

1x Spined devil

6.

3x Barbed devil

2x Spined devil

7.

10x Spined devil

8.

1x Ice devil

Dual Death Tyrant idea is pure gold And I'm using it.

Death Knight duel is a great idea.

@Keravath
Splendid ideas. I'm using Nalfeshnees too. The idea of them being imprisoned is pretty awesome TBH.

@solidork
Very good advice, I was planning this too.

@JonBeowulf
Good point. Zombies with gear on them are a great idea.

[sithlordnergal]

Sooo...you need traps and setup my friend. Traps and setup.

First, make this a full on beholder lair. I love Unoriginal's idea for why two Death Tyrants would work together. As such, verticality should be a major theme. Don't just have enemies be on the same plane as the party, they should be above or below the party. And able to strike from those areas. So if the party is in a room, have skeletons shoot at them from above where the party can't reach them. Or go the Thousand Tiny Deaths route and just have skeletons or devils constantly peppering them from full cover within the walls and ceilings.


Second, this seems like an undead zone. Paladins are gonna rip through that, but you have some options. The first two floors should be there to wear the party down with dangerous traps, or small but difficult encounters. A fun idea that I enjoy, Bodaks in the walls. All you need to do is put the party in a hallway that they cannot easily pass through, and put Bodaks behind cover that the party can't reach through. I enjoy solid stone walls with holes that are just big enough to let their deadly aura through, and that the Bodaks can see through.

My encounter involved a 10ft wide hallway that was blocked by an Ogre Zombie wearing Plate Armor and a shield. Said Ogre Zombie only took the Dodge Action as it was passively healed every turn by a modified Skull Lord. Said Skull Lord took pot shots at the party with spells, staying behind full cover when he could, while buffed Wraiths popped in and out of the walls to attack the party. Now, I was nice and gave the party a room to hide in that saved them. But had I not given them that room, they'd have been taking unavoidable damage from Bodak auras because of the Bodaks in the walls. Cause there is no save against a Bodak's Aura of Annihilation, you just take damage if you end your turn in it.

Finally, because the Bodaks were behind the walls, you could not target them with melee weapons, they had 3/4th cover from ranged attacks, and you could boost their AC by tossing them into regular armor as well...but that's a bit mean. Though the armor wouldn't hinder them. They don't cast spells, they aren't there to make ability checks or melee attacks. Its just a matter of "Do you want the Bodaks to have 23 to 25 AC with 3/4ths cover, or just stick with 20 AC?" Finally, because the Bodaks are hidden behind the wall, a player will HAVE to look through the holes to target them, which triggers the Bodak's Death Gaze


Add some spells to the Skull Lord. I gave my Skull Lord


Chill Touch
Ray of Enfeeblement
Blight
Summon Undead
Circle of Death
Harm
Grease
Heat Metal



----
For the Wraiths, I actually scale them according to Windows to the Past, with a minor buff. So T3 wraiths, which your party sounds like they can handle, have the following stats:

HP: 113(14d8 + 53)
Dexterity is 18 (+4)
immune to non-magical weapons
once per day has
advantage on saving throws versus magic and magic effects
Life Drain’s Constitution DC is 16, though I prefer 17
Life Drain becomes +9 and deals 26 (5d8 + 4) necrotic damage
Give them Multiattack

Have the wraiths remain in the walls or under the floor, and attack the party through said walls and floor. Never let the party get a full attack on the wraiths. Hell, the strategy of having a bunch of wraiths attack from the walls and floor nearly TPK'd a T4 party I was in, and we were a highly optimized AL party with cherry picked magic items cause of the adventures we had done. All the DM did was have them move into and out of the room, so there was never a wraith to target on our turn.

I will admit, I did not scale the wraiths during the encounter I am describing. Cause I didn't need to. But here's how you can scale them anyway

-----

Lastly, the bodaks. I did not scale my Bodaks for this encounter, but in case you want to, here's what I have planned for future encounters:

HP: Boosted to 80

AC: 16

Strength is 16

Death Gaze DC boosts to 15-16

Withering Gaze deals 5d10, DC 15-16

Aura of Annihilation deals 10 damage and stacks with a regular Bodak aura



For traps, puzzle rooms that deal some necrotic damage every round are handy. Pit traps and reverse pit traps are fun too. I enjoy the old vacuum trap, which is basically a room with a multi-step puzzle in it. The moment the party enters the room, it seals shut and all air is sucked out of the room. I'd let the party notice holes in the ceiling to try and figure out what will happen. If they hold their breath, great. If not, roll into initiative, and use the Suffocation rules. I.E. you can survive a number of rounds equal to your Con Modifier, then you drop to 0 HP and cannot be stabilized by any means until you can breathe.

EDIT 1: There's also the microwave hallway. Basically a single hallway that seems empty. When a creature enters it, they are under the effects of a 3rd level Heat Metal spell. Every 10 to 15 feet, the spell level increases. So it starts at 3d8, then 4d8, 5d8, 6d8, ect. Make the area difficult terrain so they have a hard time just running through. At the end of the hallway, immediate combat with a level appropriate golem. Personally, I didn't tell the party about the golem. They took off all their armor, went and fought a golem with none of their armor.


EDIT 2: OHHH!! I ALMOST FORGOT!! The invisible fire room! Made this trap based off of hydrogen leaks at Nasa. Basically, hydrogen is invisible to the naked eye, and does not give off a ton of radiant heat. Nasa workers had to literally hold out brooms in front of them or risk burning to death in order to detect hydrogen leaks, till they made tech to find it. Just make a tempting looking room, but the moment you step inside you start taking fire damage and are on fire. I basically use the stats from a Fire Elemental. So 1d10 Fire damage when they enter, then 1d10 fire damage at the start of each round. Party has to figure out what is passively killing them on their own. Its non-magical, cause its hydrogen, so Detect Magic does nothing. Plus you have the added bonus of possibly suffocating in there. ^_^

[Unoriginal]

@Unoriginal

8x Deadly Fiends

Thanks!

I checked with Kobold Fight Club, and I think the problem was that the encounters which were Deadly got that rank due to the high number of enemies (most encounters barely making it into the Deadly category), when Paladins can delete lower-HPs Fiends quite easily, when the one with the Horned Devil and the one with the Ice Devil were only Hard and had the NPCs at a massive action economy disadvantage. To illustrate what I mean: the "10 Spinned Devil" encounter was only Hard despite the action economy advantage being on the monsters' side this time, and I can't imagine the 10 devils lasted much more than 1 round if they ever got in Paladin melee range.

All in all, no reason to think there is too much power here, it's just that their classes are meant to melt through that particular kind of enemy setup.



Dual Death Tyrant idea is pure gold And I'm using it.

Thank you a lot!



Death Knight duel is a great idea.

I'd be careful using a Death Knight from the MM against a solo lvl 9 Paladin, especially one who doesn't have the same kind of magic arsenal as their teammates.

Thankfully D&D has no shortages of ways to make an undead knight type.



@Keravath
Splendid ideas. I'm using Nalfeshnees too. The idea of them being imprisoned is pretty awesome TBH.
.
.
I always like the idea of imprisoned Demons being genuinely grateful when freed (if the people didn't piss them off just before).


I love Unoriginal's idea for why two Death Tyrants would work together.

Thank you a lot!

[Angelalex242]

4 paladins huh?

...For lulz, have a Holy Avenger stuck in a stone, Excalibur style. Make them succeed at a bunch of Arthurian style ethics and morality tests to see which of them is worthy to draw it.

Have a Solar or something run the tests.

[Keravath]

Okay. So many great contributions here, I'll try to answer most.

@Unoriginal

8x Deadly Fiends

1. 5x Spined devil,2x Berarded devil,2x Hellhound
2. 3x Barbed Devil,2x Spined devil
3. 2x Chasme,4x Spined devil
4. 1x Chain devil,5xSpined devil
5. 1x Horned devil,1x Spined devil
6. 3x Barbed devil, 2x Spined devil
7. 10x Spined devil
8.1x Ice devil



I was curious and decided to check the challenge rating for your devil fights listed using D&D Beyonds encounter tool using 5 characters of 9th level.

1-4,6 come out in the barely deadly category but if you remove any one of the opponents they are all just rated hard.
5,7,8 are just rated hard to start with.

The other aspect of this is that the encounters used a large number of spined devils. The problem with that particular choice is that these creatures are so low a CR that they are largely no threat to a level 9 party. By level 9, even without magic armor, a paladin would be expected to have plate armor and a shield for AC20 - possibly AC22 with shield of faith, or could protect themselves from these creatures with protection from evil. With a +1 shield and +1 armor the AC is 22-24 (or 20-22 without the shield). The spined devil only has a +2 or +4 to hit with their attacks and they don't do a lot of damage.

Probably, the spined devils only hit with 1/5 to 1/10 of their attacks - which means that for a typical combat that takes 3 or so rounds, they might land one hit each, maybe - except that they are so easy to kill that they won't be around long.

If you leave the Spined devils out of the encounter CR calculations, all of the encounters range from easy to hard with only two in the hard category which probably matches your experience with how easily the party dealt with the encounters.

On the other hand, 3 Nalfeshnee is still unlikely to be a deadly encounter if the players know what they are doing. Although even two is considered deadly using the encounter calculator, these are fiends vs a party of paladins. Even using low level smites, the party of paladins is likely to take at least one of these out each turn even with 184 hit points (could be as high as 256 if you want), if they are smart and cast protection from evil then every opponent will have disadvantage on their attacks. So, my suspicion is that your party might have less trouble than expected even faced with 3 Nalfeshnee though each has the potential to do decent damage each turn but even with their +10 to hit will probably hit less than 1/2 the time.

This is also where the CR calculators break down. Two Nalfeshnee is still considered a deadly encounter for 5 x level 11 characters. However, a party with four level 11 paladins is likely to turn 2 Nalfeshnee into an easy encounter. With both smites and improved divine smite against fiends (and the possibility of casting protection from evil on themselves) ... they really won't be that much of a challenge.

In addition, if these paladins are really optimized then the odds are good that at least some of them are multi-classed with hexblade warlock and will have the shield spell making them even harder to hit.

P.S. If your players are playing paladins well then if you want to use either fiends or undead as reasonable opponents you are likely going to have to increase the CR of the opponents substantially.

[HoboKnight]

Allrighty, I'm stitching together a dungeon with a lot of mentioned monsters, and I'm at nafleshnee prison. Any ideas on how it should be shaped?

I have to admit demons behind bars are a sad and a lame sight. Plus, these guys teleport. They could be in AMFs, but again it would be PCs just shooting them through the bars.
TBH I'd love an idea of magical prison slowly corroding - and for this to be visible. If PCs don't intervene, prison will open in 5 or 10 years... to the town above. I'm thinking PCs should be able to open cell1, which starts the timer for cell 2, then cell 3... sort of race against time that they do not face all enemies at once.

Spatial/visual and conceptual ideas very welcome.

[Dork_Forge]

Allrighty, I'm stitching together a dungeon with a lot of mentioned monsters, and I'm at nafleshnee prison. Any ideas on how it should be shaped?

I have to admit demons behind bars are a sad and a lame sight. Plus, these guys teleport. They could be in AMFs, but again it would be PCs just shooting them through the bars.
TBH I'd love an idea of magical prison slowly corroding - and for this to be visible. If PCs don't intervene, prison will open in 5 or 10 years... to the town above. I'm thinking PCs should be able to open cell1, which starts the timer for cell 2, then cell 3... sort of race against time that they do not face all enemies at once.

Spatial/visual and conceptual ideas very welcome.

Not fiends, but I ran my players through an encounter that was a holding area, a bunch of barred cells, where monsters were being kept. A mind controlled Beholder acted as their keeper and would pull levers on the wall with telekinesis to open more cells, the players could pull levers too of they got there.

So you could have a jailer be a fiend of a rival faction, that then releases them when the party turns up?

[da newt]

I don't want to speak for Keravath but I like the idea that the magic wards that bind these 'five Nalfeshnee demons' create a boundary that the demons cannot cross, but give them a rather large and interesting lair complex to inhabit.

Maybe something akin to this floor of the dungeon is your domain - multiple rooms, maybe a bit of a maze, some traps or hazards, some living quarters, some common / larger open areas etc.
Maybe they have a central lava pool that they congregate around and use as a cooking fire.
Maybe they inhabit a labyrinth - a small hollowed out moon that used to be the lair of an especially eccentric beholder.
Maybe some areas are under the effect of a permanent reverse gravity.
Maybe it's a bunch of Bros with too much $$$ and a sweet Air BnB w/ hot tub, wet bar, gym, masseuse, karaoke machine ...
Feel free to let your creative juices flow.