Is this final boss too cruel? - For a one-shot

[Mastikator]

Short story: the players will be in a oneshot, there are 5 players, they'll be at 10th level. They may or may not have some over-leveled loot depending on how they play. They will all have an extra feat. They were allowed unlimited rerolls for stats. So my thinking is they'll be above average in terms of power level for 10th level.

The final boss? An Iron Golem, backed up by an arcane device that hurls a fireball at the iron golem every turn. (for those that don't know, fire heals iron golems) The arcane device is easy to destroy, just 15 AC, 20 HP and 20 THP (refresh at the start of its own turns). But it's up to the players to figure that out. The room is also small enough that it will be hard to escape the blast radius.

I'm slightly worried it's too much for them, I'm sure they can take an iron golem, but adding the fireball every turn might a tad strong. On the other hand it's a one-shot so TPK isn't even that bad.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[Unoriginal]

Short story: the players will be in a oneshot, there are 5 players, they'll be at 10th level. They may or may not have some over-leveled loot depending on how they play. They will all have an extra feat. They were allowed unlimited rerolls for stats. So my thinking is they'll be above average in terms of power level for 10th level.

The final boss? An Iron Golem, backed up by an arcane device that hurls a fireball at the iron golem every turn. (for those that don't know, fire heals iron golems) The arcane device is easy to destroy, just 15 AC, 20 HP and 20 THP (refresh at the start of its own turns). But it's up to the players to figure that out. The room is also small enough that it will be hard to escape the blast radius.

I'm slightly worried it's too much for them, I'm sure they can take an iron golem, but adding the fireball every turn might a tad strong. On the other hand it's a one-shot so TPK isn't even that bad.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Don't see any issue with it myself. Might want to telegraph that the fire heals the Golem when the Golem gets a big chunk of HPs back, at worst, but other than that it doesn't sound too powerful.

A published adventure does the same concept with a Flesh Golem and a lightning-throwing enemy in a room with a copper floor, with the expectation the PCs are around lvl 7 by then.

May want to give the Golem a Legendary action or two, 'cause even with that setup 1 vs 5 lvl 10 is absolutely brutally in favor of the PCs. Also there's the question of how many encounters the group will have before that, 'cause full ressource hits differently too.

Regardless, it sounds like a fun, memorable fight.

[JonBeowulf]

They were allowed unlimited rerolls for stats.

You are shockingly generous.

The encounter sounds epic, but I have concerns about the 1 v 5 part. The healing helps but likely won't be enough to make this last more than a few rounds. And I have no emotional investment in a char I made for a one-shot. I'll stay in the fight until I die. No worries.

[Oramac]

Thoughts? Opinions?

Seems ok to me. I agree with Unoriginal that you definitely should describe the golem being healed by the fireball. I'd also make sure I describe the Arcane Device as an actual "Thing-That-Can-Be-Hit" instead of just some rune on the wall or something.

Otherwise, it's probably easy enough. The golem itself will only ever do around 40-45 damage per turn, probably usually to only one character after its poison breath is expended. Like Unoriginal said, the Action Economy heavily favors the party, so I don't really see an issue with it.

[Nidgit]

Seems fine to me. I agree, give the Golem Legendary Actions, Lair Actions, or maybe Action-Oriented abilities. Action economy will be your biggest for in terms of making this memorable.

I like to give my big boss fights a rough three act structure. You've got the first: disabling the trap and healing. But I'd suggest at least one more instance where the Golem changes tactics, alters the battlefield, shows off a new ability, etc, to help raise the stakes between the main body of the fight and the climax.

[Sigreid]

As long as they can opt out of the fight, anything us fair.

[Demonslayer666]

Is the arcane device immune to fire?

It might be fun to make it so they have to lure the golem to the device, and have the arcane device destroy itself with the fireballs.

I think at 10th level, the damage output of the party will be enough even with the fireball healing it every round. Might be a tough fight if they flounder with immunities and fail a few saves.

[Oramac]

I like to give my big boss fights a rough three act structure. snip

Also, this. The one thing that readily translates from an MMO into D&D is fight phases. Boss reaches 1/2 health, big thing happens. Or two things happen at 2/3 and 1/3 HP, respectively. Or whatever makes sense for the monster and terrain. But the point remains the same. Phases actually work really well for big single monster fights.

[Unoriginal]

I propose to make the room a wrestling ring and have the Golem bust out Pro Wrestling moves as Legendary Actions.

[da newt]

3 or so flame skulls & an Iron Golem seems very fair for a better than average party of 5 level 10 PCs - I'd feel just fine with that battle being 'fair.'

(Unless of course the party was mostly out of resources and low on HP before the fight)

[Mastikator]

Thanks for the ideas! I'm thinking I'm going for 1 legendary action at 2/3rds hp (attack), and then at 1/3rd the room ignites (maybe just 2d6 fire damage to everyone on their turn) if the devices (there are two of them at opposite sides of the room, taking turns with fireballing the iron golem, sorry I didn't mention that) are still active and also the iron golem gets a 2nd legendary action (attack).

The players will not have unlimited time for long rests. They effectively have 2 long rests, on the 3rd 3 mild flayer liches have entered the dungeon (also seeking the main treasure, the ring of 3 wishes).
They will know it's a race against time from the start, with other creatures in the dungeon seeking the same treasure.

[Unoriginal]

Thanks for the ideas! I'm thinking I'm going for 1 legendary action at 2/3rds hp (attack), and then at 1/3rd the room ignites (maybe just 2d6 fire damage to everyone on their turn) if the devices (there are two of them at opposite sides of the room, taking turns with fireballing the iron golem, sorry I didn't mention that) are still active and also the iron golem gets a 2nd legendary action (attack).

The players will not have unlimited time for long rests. They effectively have 2 long rests, on the 3rd 3 mild flayer liches have entered the dungeon (also seeking the main treasure, the ring of 3 wishes).
They will know it's a race against time from the start, with other creatures in the dungeon seeking the same treasure.

Can the Mind Flayer Lich bypass the Golem?

[Mastikator]

Can the Mind Flayer Lich bypass the Golem?

Yeah Alhoon/mind flayer lich have wall of force. They can just ignore any enemy they can't kill.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I think the challenge is good. IF something happens that you don't want to TPK, do you have a flavor fluff you could use to back it out?

As an example, I'm running a Ravenloft campaign and using Barovia extensively. The party is exploring the Amber Temple. The details to consider are that there is a room with a Stone Golem that activates only if someone touches treasure piles. Further, if the door to the treasure room is breached the Golem has Invisibility and Greater Invisibility cast upon it.

For a group of 4 7th level PCs this should be challenging but not undoable. Queue my group. They came here almost straight from the Death Slaad fight and were already rough. They also split the party. One PC ran off with an NPC. Another NPC snuck in here without triggering any traps, but then relocked the door behind them. So two PCs smashed the door on their own looking around, then triggered the fight. Suddenly the Hard but not impossible challenge became a death sentence for a 7th level Reborn Eldritch Knight and a 7th Level Shadar Kai Whispers Bard. So I removed the Greater Invisibility, making sure they could see it after the first attack. Then, I wrote a rule that if all combatants were inactive the Golem stopped and reset. Which meant once the PCs went down the fight was over. Then when the missing PC came and found them and healed them, all was well.

[Kane0]

Sounds fine. Maybe the Golem can have a legendary action that directs the device to cast a lower level fire spell (1 leg action for firebolt or burning hands, 2 for ag's scorcher or scorching ray) at a target or direction of it's choice. That would double up on the incentive for the party to hit the device to deprive the golem of a potential use of its legendary actions.

[CTurbo]

5 level 10 characters with very high stats will make quick work of a single Iron Golem. I'd throw in a few dozen minions to slow down the party a bit. Some Magmins or Mephits would be great. Funny thing about them is when they die, they explode like a mini fireball dealing 2d6 fire damage to everything within 10ft of them. Every time the party kills one that's near the Golem, it will heal some. If not, you'll have to give it legendary options and maybe some legendary resistance too.

[herrhauptmann]

Anyone remember the 3.0 module "something's cooking in the kitchen?"

The manicotti golem got boosted AC when hit with fire, +1ac for 3 points of fire damage I think. My players didn't notice until suddenly they weren't hitting on a 23.

[Skrum]

Def give the Golem legendary resist and some legendary actions. 5 v 1, it's not going to last 3 rounds, even with the fireballs.

Options
1) a melee attack (1 action)

2) retribution: the next time the golem is attacked in melee, it counterstrikes for 3d10 bludgeoning damage (1 action)

3) Poison Nova: the golem expels poison from every crevice of its armor, creating a 15' radius cloud around it. All creatures in that radius take 5d8 poison damage. They may make a DC 17 Constitution save to reduce the damage by half. (2 actions)

[Mastikator]

Def give the Golem legendary resist and some legendary actions. 5 v 1, it's not going to last 3 rounds, even with the fireballs.

Options
1) a melee attack (1 action)

2) retribution: the next time the golem is attacked in melee, it counterstrikes for 3d10 bludgeoning damage (1 action)

3) Poison Nova: the golem expels poison from every crevice of its armor, creating a 15' radius cloud around it. All creatures in that radius take 5d8 poison damage. They may make a DC 17 Constitution save to reduce the damage by half. (2 actions)

Already ran the game last saturday :smallsmile:

People of this thread were right, they took the golem from 210 hp to 36 before the golem had a turn, so I just let him fire off both fireballs with a legendary action and also ignited the whole room. Two players were clever enough to destroy the arcane devices, so only one of them could drop a fireball again. In retrospect I should've had the arcane devices explode when destroyed.

Otherwise I'm happy, they liked the campaign and wanted to continue it next year with the same characters. (It's an annual thing, every easter)

[Slipjig]

So two PCs smashed the door on their own looking around, then triggered the fight. Suddenly the Hard but not impossible challenge became a death sentence for a 7th level Reborn Eldritch Knight and a 7th Level Shadar Kai Whispers Bard. So I removed the Greater Invisibility, making sure they could see it after the first attack. Then, I wrote a rule that if all combatants were inactive the Golem stopped and reset. Which meant once the PCs went down the fight was over. Then when the missing PC came and found them and healed them, all was well.

See, I might have made this an object lesson is, "when you are exploring a place that is CLEARLY SIGNPOSTED as being extremely dangerous (in a horror game, no less) don't be an idiot by splitting the party. Or, if the party is split, don't do things that are likely to trigger the security systems like breaking down doors. Finally if the party IS split and you've triggered a seriously nasty guardian that you can't beat, RUN AWAY."

I mean, allowing things to go back to "all is well" status after something like that sends a clear signal to the PCs that they cannot lose no matter how stupid their choices are, and that kills all drama and tension at the table. If nobody thinks there are real risks, you also can't have real heroics.

[Nidgit]

See, I might have made this an object lesson is, "when you are exploring a place that is CLEARLY SIGNPOSTED as being extremely dangerous (in a horror game, no less) don't be an idiot by splitting the party. Or, if the party is split, don't do things that are likely to trigger the security systems like breaking down doors. Finally if the party IS split and you've triggered a seriously nasty guardian that you can't beat, RUN AWAY."

I mean, allowing things to go back to "all is well" status after something like that sends a clear signal to the PCs that they cannot lose no matter how stupid their choices are, and that kills all drama and tension at the table. If nobody thinks there are real risks, you also can't have real heroics.
Oof, I feel this. A few sessions back my party was exploring a lich's heavily booby-trapped lair to find her phylactery after killing her the first time. It's a fairly lighthearted campaign and the party was kind of screwing around, taking turns drinking poisons for the effects instead of applying logic or letting the poison-immune monk be the guinea pig, that kind of thing. The hyper-chaotic bard (my partner) finally drinks the right potion and can safely pass through the Prismatic Wall into the sanctum. Instead of pulling the lever to deactivate the Wall and let the party in, she immediately says she wants to start knocking things over.

I'm faced with a choice. Disturbing the item she wanted to wreck will trigger a hidden randomized Symbol and then unleash seven undead guardians to attack. It will assuredly be a slow, painful death as the rest of the party watches helplessly from the outside, unable to even retrieve her body for revival. Or, I can hide my panic and make fun of her decision until she changes her mind. To avoid ruining the campaign, I chose the latter.

And for what it's worth, when the bard inevitably did trigger the trap during exploration of the sanctum, she spent basically the entire fight incapacitated with Pain before being downed by some of the undead creatures.

[Slipjig]

Yikes. I just don't get the people who are clearly just trying to break the game. It's one thing to say, "The DM has clearly established a hoop for me to jump through, but I don't like that hoop, so I'm going to try something else!" But it's something entirely different when it's just, "Look at me doing things that make no sense AND actively harm the party's chances!" I mean, assuming somebody acting like that much of a moron survived their first dungeon, you would NEVER bring them to a second one.

Obviously this doesn't apply to games with a more ridiculous tone. I watched an actual play recently where the players were all hamsters, and there were multiple Chaos Muppets, but it was fine because that matched the tone of the setting. But even there the Chaos Muppets were still generally on-task, they just found absurd ways to pursue their goals.

[Barbarian Horde]

Let's be honest, what's the point of playing if there's no risk involved? I say go for it, and let the players have a shot at taking down this tough boss with a clever solution.