Is there a good use for this ability?

[SangoProduction]

Negate Expertise
At 3rd level, the malefactor may inhibit the abilities of enemies around them. The malefactor chooses one ability score. All enemies within 60 feet of the malefactor take penalties equal to half the malefactor’s level on all skill checks and ability checks which use that ability score. At 10th level, the malefactor may choose 2 ability scores rather than 1

So, first thing i thought of was Dexterity for Initiative, but rarely does anyone roll initiative only when they are within 60 feet of you, so that use would be dependent upon the DM dynamically changing the initiative order.
Hmm, I guess if you had a Creation sphere user create cages around your enemies, you could inhibit their ability to make strength checks to bust out. But they can still just attack the cage.
Anything else??

[Inevitability]

Picking Wisdom to improve your stealth capabilities?

Strength is kind of rough if you have a buddy built around tripping or grappling.

[pabelfly]

Charisma for Intimidate builds.

[Inevitability]

Charisma for Intimidate builds.

Wisdom, right? The opposed check is made using wisdom, not charisma.

[SangoProduction]

Wisdom, right? The opposed check is made using wisdom, not charisma.

I think he may mean to go against intimidate builds.

[Gruftzwerg]

Picking Wisdom to improve your stealth capabilities?

Strength is kind of rough if you have a buddy built around tripping or grappling.

Doesn't affect allies, sole enemies.


Thus Strength would be legit choice here imho.
It's more dmg for your attacks and less dmg for your enemies melee attacks.
Also nice if you use trip/grappling or anything else that has STR rolls.

edit: I realized that it is sole for ability and skill checks..

[Inevitability]

Doesn't affect allies, sole enemies.

Yeah, and if one of your allies grapples those enemies, the enemies will take a penalty on their grapple checks to escape; likewise on checks to avoid being tripped.

And similarly, if you decrease enemies' wisdom-based skills, their Spot and Listen will go down. Am I missing anything?

edit: oh wait, did you think I meant 'picking strength is kind of rough for your strength-based allies?' because no, I meant that it's rough for the enemies

[AnonJr]

Dex is still a good option - cripple it and start throwing greasy balance checks. :smallwink:

[Gruftzwerg]

edit: oh wait, did you think I meant 'picking strength is kind of rough for your strength-based allies?' because no, I meant that it's rough for the enemies

Yeah think I misunderstood you there. My fault. Never mind.

______________


CON for concentration checks. Be it your own or to make em harder for the enemy caster.
Maybe even add the maneuvers from ToB that make attack and dmg rolls with concentration checks instead.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you've got access to 3.5's Heroes of Battle Miniatures Handbook, take a dip into marshal and choose a build that relies on opposed skill or ability checks. Use marshal to boost your (and your party's) checks and malefactor to penalize your opponents'.

Would be great for a battle-of-the-bands-based bard.

Not so great for grapple, though, given how useless grapplers generally are at higher levels. Still, tripping is also Str-based, so...

[Tzardok]

The marshal is from Miniatures Handbook, not Heroes of Battle.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The marshal is from Miniatures Handbook, not Heroes of Battle.Ah. Right. Thanks.

Probably shouldn't post when I have a raging headache and am exhausted from little sleep.

[Darg]

Grapple isn't a strength check.... It can reduce the chance of an escape artist attempt...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Grapple isn't a strength check.... It can reduce the chance of an escape artist attempt...Technically, it is.

The definition of an ability check is: "a roll of 1d20 plus the appropriate ability modifier."

Grapple checks are ability checks with BAB and size + misc modifiers added in on top. But they still qualify as ability checks, since there's d20+Str involved.

Also, technically, attack rolls and skill checks are ability checks, as well.

[Ramza00]

Dex is still a good option - cripple it and start throwing greasy balance checks. :smallwink:

Yeah if there is no action or resource cost and unlimited duration, if you start combat within your enemies of 60 ft we are talking an anti improved initiative (-4 to enemies initiative at level 8) to all applicable enemies.

[Darg]

Technically, it is.

The definition of an ability check is: "a roll of 1d20 plus the appropriate ability modifier."

Grapple checks are ability checks with BAB and size + misc modifiers added in on top. But they still qualify as ability checks, since there's d20+Str involved.

Also, technically, attack rolls and skill checks are ability checks, as well.


ABILITY CHECKS
Sometimes a character tries to do something to which no specific skill really applies. In these cases, you make an ability check. An ability check is a roll of 1d20 plus the appropriate ability modifier. Essentially, you’re making an untrained skill check.

Yeah, no. That's stretching things way too far as that understanding would include skill checks which are not ability checks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah, no. That's stretching things way too far as that understanding would include skill checks which are not ability checks.Except A includes all of B, but not the reverse, and you're saying that A always equals B always equals A, which doesn't work.

Anything that includes a d20 roll and an ability score is an ability check, by the definition of "ability check," which includes grapple checks, attack rolls, skill checks, and initiative checks, even though "ability check" includes more than those, as well.

[Darg]

Except A includes all of B, but not the reverse, and you're saying that A always equals B always equals A, which doesn't work.

Anything that includes a d20 roll and an ability score is an ability check, by the definition of "ability check," which includes grapple checks, attack rolls, skill checks, and initiative checks, even though "ability check" includes more than those, as well.

What? No. "An ability check is a roll of 1d20 plus the appropriate ability modifier." To say that an ability check is MORE than that is adding something it does not say. There are different checks. The book very specifically differentiates them and excludes attacks and saving throws:


check: A method of determining the result when a character attempts an action (other than an attack or a saving throw) that has a chance of failure. Checks are based on a relevant character ability, skill, or other characteristic. Most checks are either ability checks or skill checks, though special types such as turning checks, caster level checks, dispel checks, and initiative checks also exist. The specific name of the check usually corresponds to the skill or ability used. To make a check, roll 1d20 and add any relevant modifiers. (Higher results are always better.) If this check result equals or exceeds the Difficulty Class number assigned by the DM (or the opponent’s check, if the action is opposed) the check succeeds.

You can say everything is an ability check, but it would be wrong.

[Gruftzwerg]

Ok, we exclude grapple as option.

Still leaves: Trip, Overrun & Bull Rush

Plenty of choices for Strength checks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What? No. "An ability check is a roll of 1d20 plus the appropriate ability modifier." To say that an ability check is MORE than that is adding something it does not say. There are different checks. The book very specifically differentiates them and excludes attacks and saving throws:

You can say everything is an ability check, but it would be wrong.You're houseruling, because RAW, so long as the check is 1d20+ability modifier, it's an ability check. Doing it your way means that if you add any other bonuses to an ability check, that suddenly no longer becomes an ability check, meaning that an ability that says, "add +1 to a Str check" disqualifies itself, because as soon as you use the ability that adds the bonus, the Str check is no longer a Str check and can no longer be used with that ability.

An ability check is 1d20+ability modifier+bonuses.

An initiative check is an ability check made before a fight.

A skill check is an ability check+skill ranks.

An attack roll is an ability check+BAB.

A grapple check is an ability check+BAB.

But those are all still ability checks, since they're all 1d20+ability mod, which is literally all that's required, since they all fall under the definition (which is very broad and encompasses all of them).

Just because an orange is a sweet and acidic citrus fruit and an avocado is a savory stone-fruit don't mean they're not both fruits.

[Vaern]

You're houseruling, because RAW, so long as the check is 1d20+ability modifier, it's an ability check.

You're repeatedly quoting a snippet from the glossary and taking it as gospel. This only tells you what an ability check consists of, not what an ability check actually is or when it's appropriate to make one. By ignoring the actual full description of ability checks, you are essentially arguing that table trumps text.

I could look at the glossary, see cleric (Clr) defined as "A class made up of characters who cast divine spells and are also capable in combat," and argue that a cleric is not defined as a character with levels of the cleric class. So long as they cast divine spells and are capable in combat, they fall within the definition of cleric (Clr) and therefore have access the Clr spell list.

Paladins cast divine spells and are capable in combat, but can also lay on hands and get a special mount.

Druids cast divine spells and are capable in combat, but can also shapeshift and get an animal companion.

Rangers cast divine spells and are capable in combat, but can also choose a favored combat style and specialize in fighting specific enemies.

But those are all still clerics, since they cast divine spells and are capable in combat, which is literally all that's required, since they all fall under the definition (which is very broad and encompasses all of them).

If we look only at the glossary definitions and ignore literally everything else in the book, this interpretation of clerics is perfectly accurate. This is exactly the argument you're making for your simplified description of ability checks. That doesn't mean it's right once you look outside the glossary and into the full context of RAW.

[Darg]

You're houseruling, because RAW, so long as the check is 1d20+ability modifier, it's an ability check. Doing it your way means that if you add any other bonuses to an ability check, that suddenly no longer becomes an ability check, meaning that an ability that says, "add +1 to a Str check" disqualifies itself, because as soon as you use the ability that adds the bonus, the Str check is no longer a Str check and can no longer be used with that ability.

An ability check is 1d20+ability modifier+bonuses.

An initiative check is an ability check made before a fight.

A skill check is an ability check+skill ranks.

An attack roll is an ability check+BAB.

A grapple check is an ability check+BAB.

But those are all still ability checks, since they're all 1d20+ability mod, which is literally all that's required, since they all fall under the definition (which is very broad and encompasses all of them).

Just because an orange is a sweet and acidic citrus fruit and an avocado is a savory stone-fruit don't mean they're not both fruits.

Ok. You do you. If you want to proclaim they're all ability checks even though the book literally tells you that they aren't (I even quoted it), go ahead.

Check=fruit
Orange=specific kind of fruit=ability check
Avacado=specific kind if fruit=other check

You're analogy needed some work.

[AnonJr]

Yeah if there is no action or resource cost and unlimited duration, if you start combat within your enemies of 60 ft we are talking an anti improved initiative (-4 to enemies initiative at level 8) to all applicable enemies.

A good wand of grease, tactically deployed against some Dex-impaired enemies can seriously limit their movement on the field. You can even target the weapon, making them check to see if they can hang on to it at all.

<sarc>Then set it all on fire, natch.</sarc>

[SirNibbles]

Yeah if there is no action or resource cost and unlimited duration, if you start combat within your enemies of 60 ft we are talking an anti improved initiative (-4 to enemies initiative at level 8) to all applicable enemies.




A symbiat may create psionic effects from the list below for a total number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Intelligence modifier. Every level gained beyond 1st grants him an additional 2 rounds he may create psionic effects.

A symbiat may activate any psionic effect he possesses as a standard action, but need only spend a free action to maintain the effect each round.

Spheres of Power: Symbiat


It's a standard action to activate and has limited uses.

[Ramza00]

A symbiat may create psionic effects from the list below for a total number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Intelligence modifier. Every level gained beyond 1st grants him an additional 2 rounds he may create psionic effects.

A symbiat may activate any psionic effect he possesses as a standard action, but need only spend a free action to maintain the effect each round.

Spheres of Power: Symbiat


It's a standard action to activate and has limited uses.

So it is a Bardic Music as an inspiration but with a different name so feats and items can not modify it?

And it is replicating level 1 spell effects? *sigh*, it becomes useful at later levels around level 7/8 or level 13/14 due to action reduction, but I am questioning the usage for while it can be useful for said action as a “free” class ability it may not be the best use of a move action at 7 or a swift action at 13.

Level 6 and earlier to level 3 the amount reduced and the action is just never useful.

[St Fan]

What is and isn't ability checks is actually very important in the game.

Many things can give you bonus to ability checks (and generally to the related skill checks), but they specifically excludes saving throws, attack rolls, etc., or else those bonuses would be way too broken.

You may notice that whenever something grant bonuses or penalties, it lists specifically what kind of checks it affect, always separating ability checks, skill checks, saving throws, attacks rolls, damage roll, etc.

[SangoProduction]

So it is a Bardic Music as an inspiration but with a different name so feats and items can not modify it?

And it is replicating level 1 spell effects? *sigh*, it becomes useful at later levels around level 7/8 or level 13/14 due to action reduction, but I am questioning the usage for while it can be useful for said action as a “free” class ability it may not be the best use of a move action at 7 or a swift action at 13.

Level 6 and earlier to level 3 the amount reduced and the action is just never useful.

Yeah, but most of the feats were copy/pasted over as symbait feats.