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brian c
2007-12-04, 10:18 PM
Okay, so the text for the aboleth "Enslave" ability reads as follows


Enslave (Su)

Three times per day, an aboleth can attempt to enslave any one living creature within 30 feet. The target must succeed on a DC 17 Will save or be affected as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 16th). An enslaved creature obeys the aboleth’s telepathic commands until freed by remove curse, and can attempt a new Will save every 24 hours to break free. The control is also broken if the aboleth dies or travels more than 1 mile from its slave. The save DC is Charisma-based.

My question is, can the aboleth force an enslaved creature to fail its will save? I'm trying to set up a situation where an aboleth enslaves a creature that ends up gaining a lot of spellcasting levels, but unless the aboleth can order it to fail its save, it'll break free pretty soon.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-04, 10:26 PM
You could rule that the Aboleth spends a lot of time breaking his spirit, inducing Stockholm Syndrome and the like.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-04, 10:27 PM
There's not much point in adding a save every twenty-four hours if you can order them to fail it, is there?

EDIT:
You could rule that the Aboleth spends a lot of time breaking his spirit, inducing Stockholm Syndrome and the like.

Yes, that's probably the best way to handle it. Particularly since the Aboleth has that nasty slime ability that makes the creature's former home fatal to it.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-04, 10:36 PM
It depends on how one looks at the matter. If the will save is taken while under domination, yes. If the will save is, however, made in a brief, fleeting moment of lucidity, then, no, it's free. I believe the general consensus for Domination spells is the former, though Enslave may be different.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-12-04, 10:48 PM
In most cases, intentionally failing a save against continued domination would be against a given creatures nature to the extent that it would trigger its own save with the attendant bonuses as outlined in the dominate person description.

So, yeah, the aboleth can order it, but it's actually gonna benefit the slave rather than the aboleth. That is unless the aboleth has found one of those cases outside of "most cases," such as the afore mentioned Stockholm Syndrome. Of course it's up to the DM however that would work.

Clementx
2007-12-04, 10:55 PM
In most cases, intentionally failing a save against continued domination would be against a given creatures nature to the extent that it would trigger its own save with the attendant bonuses as outlined in the dominate person description.
Exactly. Failing your save against a harmful effect from any source is not something creatures normally do, so it gets the save at +2. Unless, of course, the creature is a submissive that routinely chooses to be dominated. And where that happens is up to the DM. The life-long thrall of an aboleth who was raised from birth to worship the lurkers below the waves would panic if ever confronted with free will, for instance.

Rigon
2007-12-04, 11:09 PM
I think Stockholm Syndrome is not really possible for Aboleths. That would require the victim to feel some sort of understanding/empathy toward the terrorist (understand goals and emotions... understand "drive"). But (as far as i know) Aboleth has an alien mindset... meaning we are doomed never to understand them. Thus we won't fail our will saves for an aboleth intentionally and this means an aboleth can't order the dominated person to fail its will save.

brian c
2007-12-04, 11:18 PM
Interesting...

I just wanted a rules perspective on this. It's for my homebrew setting, and I'm the DM, so I can pretty much just decide that Enslave is permanent if I want to, or at least that it was in this case. The basic idea is that some ancient, uber-powerful aboleth enslaves a tribe of goblinoids into worshiping him as a cult, and ultimately managing to elevate himself to the status of a lesser deity. This goblin spellcaster being enslaved would be the first to fall prey, then being ordered to prosyletize and gain more followers.

If and when I figure out more about this guy, I'll post it over in homebrew.

Chronos
2007-12-04, 11:22 PM
I think Stockholm Syndrome is not really possible for Aboleths. That would require the victim to feel some sort of understanding/empathy toward the terrorist (understand goals and emotions... understand "drive"). But (as far as i know) Aboleth has an alien mindset... meaning we are doomed never to understand them. Thus we won't fail our will saves for an aboleth intentionally and this means an aboleth can't order the dominated person to fail its will save.I agree that a human could never truly understand an aboleth... But the human capacity for self-delusion is infinite, and I think it's quite possible for a human to think he or she understands the aboleth, which is all it would take.

Rigon
2007-12-04, 11:45 PM
that is kinda true.
but how would we "roll a check" for the chance delusion?
i mean it can't be the will save which failed previously when the dominate person was cast. and it can't be the next will save at the next Dominate Person.
And what stat saves against "self induced delusion"? definitely not will save. that helps against effects which you do not want.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-04, 11:49 PM
You don't roll a check for self-delusion any more than you roll a check for a burning desire for vengeance.

brian c
2007-12-05, 12:40 AM
To even further solve my own dilemma, the Aboleth Savant prestige class in Lords of Madness has a class ability called True Enslave. Those enslaved no longer get a saving throw every 24 hours, and there is no distance limit. If my aboleth god is a savant, problem solved.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-05, 08:16 AM
I think Stockholm Syndrome is not really possible for Aboleths. That would require the victim to feel some sort of understanding/empathy toward the terrorist (understand goals and emotions... understand "drive"). But (as far as i know) Aboleth has an alien mindset... meaning we are doomed never to understand them. Thus we won't fail our will saves for an aboleth intentionally and this means an aboleth can't order the dominated person to fail its will save.

Couldn't one say the same 'alien mindset' thing about an omnipotent and omniscient god? Many people choose to 'surrender their will' in that scenario in RL. I could easily see an aboleth convincing a low int/wis creature that it is a god.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-05, 08:20 AM
That uber aboleth sounds like a Cthulhu ripoff. Did you get inspiration from H. P.?

brian c
2007-12-05, 09:36 AM
That uber aboleth sounds like a Cthulhu ripoff. Did you get inspiration from H. P.?

I've never had any experience with lovecraft stuff, other than playing the Arkham Horror boardgame once. I was just thinking about how there's not much room in my setting for monsters that aren't humanoids, animals, dragons or demons/devils, so I decided to work something else in there. I think aboleths are the perfect race to convince goblins that they are gods, given their magic/psionic abilities and insane lifespan.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-05, 10:34 AM
That's certainly true. Too bad they don't talk to Illithids, an Illithid/Aboleth goblin "pantheon" would be a really interesting idea.

Craig1f
2007-12-05, 11:01 AM
Use Wisdom-based poisons on the player. Give him Wisdom Damage down to WIS 3 or so. Then while you're at it, add a cursed item like, Cloak of Receptivity -6 (I just looked up the antonym for Resistance) that lowers saves by 6.

If that doesn't work, keep him constantly drunk.

brian c
2007-12-05, 11:07 AM
Use Wisdom-based poisons on the player. Give him Wisdom Damage down to WIS 3 or so. Then while you're at it, add a cursed item like, Cloak of Receptivity -6 (I just looked up the antonym for Resistance) that lowers saves by 6.

If that doesn't work, keep him constantly drunk.

Heh... well this isn't for a player, just a general rules curiosity question. I like the "Cloak of Receptivity" though, that would be an awesome cursed item. It doesn't sound like it would lower saves though, sounds like something that would make you more promiscuous...

If anyone needs an adventure hook for a mature group of players, have them break up a prostitution ring where all the girls are forced to wear cloaks of Charisma and Receptivity :smallwink:

Prometheus
2007-12-05, 07:46 PM
I second the Wisdom poison. It would be especially interesting plot device...perhaps the poison is leaking into the surrounding water and that is your first indication. Maybe the Aboleth gets the person addicted to a drug...

Also, if you want a spellcaster around an Aboleth, you could just give the Aboleth class levels. Of course that wouldn't be as interesting...

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-12-05, 08:16 PM
That uber aboleth sounds like a Cthulhu ripoff. Did you get inspiration from H. P.?
The regular aboleth was pretty much inspired by Lovecraftian Horror. Not a surprise an über-Aboleth would make the connection more obvious. :smallcool: