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Beren One-Hand
2007-12-04, 11:06 PM
I'm currently playing a Thaumaturgist, coming from Cleric levels with the Summoning domain, so I've been delving into the possible uses of the various summoning spells and I've come across something I don't really understand.

Why are summoned monsters prohibited from using teleportation and planar travel abilities? Is it really unbalancing to be able to use a Hound Archon to deliver a message/package at Level 9? It also seems to severly weaken some of the creatures, which have an etheral jaunt ability or greater teleportation ability. This wouldn't be a problem, but the CR's of the creatures able to be summoned are roughly on par without taking into consideration these prohibitions.

Here is a complete list of summon monster stats. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65183)

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-05, 12:18 AM
Agree it doesn't make much sense IMO better to just disallow the summoning of certain creature types so never an issue. I believe the primary reason is the designers want the PCs utilizing the travel spells or travelling and having encounters not circumventing them.

SM4 summons a Lantern Archon with greater teleport limited to self + 50# at will. It can be a Special Famialiar for a LG wizard - 7. Boots of teleporation cost 40,000 gp and are limited to 3/day.

Two easy ways to defeat the 50# mechanic are the Reduce spell or the Alter Self spell another common method is using a Portable Hole but plenty of other ways if it was allowed for non "summoned" outsiders.

There is an actual 3.5 oversight in Champions of Valor the level 3 Conjuration Create Lantern Archon who will serve a PC for up to an hour or perform a task for taking minor ability damage as the spell component sacrifce which will do what you want so hope that helps.

A Summon Monster 4 spell costs 700 gp and piggy backing it now it is basically equal to a level 7 spell greater teleport for taking a few rounds to transporting the PCs so the designers thought the game was being abused of course that special ability is figured in the creatures CR..

As a Thaumaturgist use LPA instead of SNA 5 to summon a Janni who can plane shift.

Don't forget calling effects allow them to use their special travel abilities.

SM7 will let you summon a Movanic Deva from the Fiend Foliio who can do a freebie Raise Dead or Commune for your PC.

TheOOB
2007-12-05, 12:56 AM
The teleport ability of most outsiders allows them to teleport themselves and 50 lbs of objects. A creature is never an object. The biggest reason a summoned creature couldn't use teleport is that they most likely have no knowledge of the place they are teleporting to.

Starsinger
2007-12-05, 01:28 AM
The teleport ability of most outsiders allows them to teleport themselves and 50 lbs of objects. A creature is never an object. The biggest reason a summoned creature couldn't use teleport is that they most likely have no knowledge of the place they are teleporting to.

But couldn't a lantern archon familiar (see CASTLEMIKE's post) be used to teleport itself, and it's master (since via the share spell's property, they're "YOU")

Beren One-Hand
2007-12-05, 01:39 AM
Another thing that has me scratching my head is,
Where do you summon the Janni or the Couatl from?
They are outsiders, yes, but they live on the Material Plane!

deadseashoals
2007-12-05, 01:47 AM
But couldn't a lantern archon familiar (see CASTLEMIKE's post) be used to teleport itself, and it's master (since via the share spell's property, they're "YOU")

It could teleport itself. Your familiar can't share spells with you, you have to share spells with your familiar. Furthermore, I don't believe share spells extends to spell-like abilities.

The_Snark
2007-12-05, 03:59 PM
SM7 will let you summon a Movanic Deva from the Fiend Foliio who can do a freebie Raise Dead or Commune for your PC.

Commune? Nope. 10-minute casting time, which is way over Summon Monster's duration. Plus...


A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

Raise Dead, on the other hand, is... feasible, which is why every other angel that can raise the dead has Resurrection instead. Bit of an oversight there.


But couldn't a lantern archon familiar (see CASTLEMIKE's post) be used to teleport itself, and it's master (since via the share spell's property, they're "YOU")

You can share spells with your familiar; it can't share spells with you.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-12-05, 04:15 PM
I'm currently playing a Thaumaturgist, coming from Cleric levels with the Summoning domain, so I've been delving into the possible uses of the various summoning spells and I've come across something I don't really understand.

Why are summoned monsters prohibited from using teleportation and planar travel abilities?

I must be missing something! Where's the rule on summoned monsters not being able to use Teleport? The Summoning section of the magic chapter just stops them from summoning things, to keep the "the demon summons another demon, which summons another demon, which... etc" loop from happening.

Beren One-Hand
2007-12-05, 08:03 PM
I must be missing something! Where's the rule on summoned monsters not being able to use Teleport? The Summoning section of the magic chapter just stops them from summoning things, to keep the "the demon summons another demon, which summons another demon, which... etc" loop from happening.

According to my SRD it says it right in the spell description for Summon Monster I. I've highlighted the appropriate text.


Summon Monster I
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Brd 1, Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st-level list on the accompanying Summon Monster table. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell.
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them.
When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
Arcane Focus: A tiny bag and a small (not necessarily lit) candle.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-12-05, 08:22 PM
I believe the issue may be more conceptual than balancing. The monster was involuntary transported to the casters side in a fashion similar to their own teleportation abilities, and the magic is set to keep the summoned creature from just blinking out. As such, it short circuits the summoned creatures' natural abilities.

Craig1f
2007-12-06, 10:50 AM
Raise Dead, on the other hand, is... feasible, which is why every other angel that can raise the dead has Resurrection instead. Bit of an oversight there.

That's true. However, you'll have to make sure you summon a creature that has Raise Dead as a "spell like ability" and not as a spell, as Raise Dead has a casting time of 10 minutes, which is much longer than you can summon a creature for.

Spell-like abilities are always a standard action though.

I believe you can summon a Deva, from the Fiend Folio (not sure, but I think this was the book). They can Raise Dead as a spell-like-ability.They can also cast Divination, which is extremely useful as well, since that also has a 10-minute casting time. So, when you need a divination NOW, and not in 10 minutes, that's a good solution.

This is useful when you're escaping a demon prison, and crawling through a waste pipe, with some nasty demon oozes hot on your trail. You reach the end of a tunnel, which leads to an endless void, were refuge is being dumped. You feel, somehow, different. "I cast divination with the question 'Hey, can I plane shift here?'"

Answer "Sure!".
*poof*

Craig1f
2007-12-06, 10:58 AM
Raise Dead, on the other hand, is... feasible, which is why every other angel that can raise the dead has Resurrection instead. Bit of an oversight there.

That's true. However, you'll have to make sure you summon a creature that has Raise Dead as a "spell like ability" and not as a spell, as Raise Dead has a casting time of 10 minutes, which is much longer than you can summon a creature for.

Spell-like abilities are always a standard action though.

I believe you can summon a Deva, from the Fiend Folio (not sure, but I think this was the book). They can Raise Dead as a spell-like-ability.They can also cast Divination, which is extremely useful as well, since that also has a 10-minute casting time. So, when you need a divination NOW, and not in 10 minutes, that's a good solution.

This is useful when you're escaping a demon prison, and crawling through a waste pipe, with some nasty demon oozes hot on your trail. You reach the end of a tunnel, which leads to an endless void, were refuge is being dumped. You feel, somehow, different. "I cast divination with the question 'Hey, can I plane shift here?'"

Answer "Sure!".
*poof*

Ganurath
2007-12-06, 11:16 AM
Another thing that has me scratching my head is,
Where do you summon the Janni or the Couatl from?
They are outsiders, yes, but they live on the Material Plane!Well, I'm going by page 157 of the 3.0 PHB and looking at the entry on the Summoning Subschool, and it looks like the creature in question would be summoned from the Material Plane to wherever you are (including, but not limited to, a different location on the Material Plane.)

Theli
2007-12-06, 11:21 AM
Spell-like abilities are always a standard action though.

This is actually not quite true. If the SLA is based on a spell, apparently you have to reference the casting time of the spell in order to get the correct casting time of the SLA.

For example, if you have Identify as a spell-like ability, it would take an hour to use.