Upgrading the Kineticist [PF1]

[Aotrs Commander]

I am in the process of working up to converting the last three classes I'm going to import from PF1 to my own 3.5/PF1 hybrid rules, 3.Aotrs. (Specifically, Archivist, Bloodrager and Kinetecist.)

Short Version: Kinecticist has a reputation for being underpowered; what are its weak points and how should it be improved?

Long version: Those three didn't make the first round, because a) I was unsure whether I even wanted Arcaneist, but, having seen what the 3.5 Archivist can do (with access, as RAW to All Of The Divine Spells he can get scrolls for), at this point, frack it. (Also, I'm making the players have a game where they can't have the usual suspect character classes, so...) I'm am 100% certain Arcanist does NOT need a balance pass, it'll be plenty powerful enough.
Bloodrager I'm not sure about (and I'm very on the fence about it), but I haven't heard much chatter on it good or bad, so it's probably fairly fine as-is.
Kineticist is one I avoided for several reasons. One, it had the aforementioned reputation for being underpowered. Two, Warlock (upgraded) is Right There, and kineticist also felt like it was a poor's man invokation-user. Three, going over it was going to be a very major job (especially since for use in my homebrew campaign world... There are WAY more energy types...) and I just couldn't be arsed at the time. And even if the power level was okay, the Burn mechanic is something I inherently didn't like.

(Sidenote: the psychic magic classes won't make the grade even, since a) I use Actual Psionics and I didn't feel the need to add Mentalism to my Essense and Channelling, to Rolemaster my D&D-ish) and b) they all looked really crap mechanically on top.)


Kineticist is also, frankly, going to have to have a name change, because I realised that Because Psionics, "kineticist" is already taken (by a subtype of Psion), so any suggestions (no, not "bender...") would be welcome.

So , then, down to the bulk of my question. To get kineticist up to standard - and by which I mean, "must be competative outside of a few specific builds," what would be need to be done?

By comparison, the house-rule upgraded Warlock gets D6 every odd level eldtritch blast, more invocations, more blast-altering invocation, and pertinently, if they don't use a blast shape mechanic (i.e., change the ranged touch attack into an area-effect), they get to do a full attack, and if they DO use a shape, at about level 11, it gets automatically empowered). This was enough of a buff I felt made it competative with, say, Archers. (Though we have yet to run one properly to see if it still needs some work.)

To my understanding at the moment, the kineticist's issues are:

a) Damage is slightly sub-par, and even then competative only with difficulty to due to fighting the action economy and the Burn mechanic

b) Lack of versatility.

My initial high-concept idea for an overhaul are very tentatively:

a) scrap Burn as a mechanic entirely

b) potentially change the kineticist into functionally an invokation user (i.e. spell-like abilities) properly.

c) Easier access to full attack options.

I would appreciate any input or thoughts folk have to share, evem (as if often the case) it just helps me rigidly determine my areas of doubt and uncertainty.



(I've also cross-posted this to thePathfinder reddit.)

[Nizaris]

I've played one in PFS with a bunch of non-optimizers, the best way that I found to deal damage was to not use the blast. Instead I got a conductive weapon and the blast talent that lets me add a die or two of my blast to my weapon attacks. Your energy blasts are a single application of sneak attack by a rogue of your level, touch is good but if you miss then your turn was wasted and your target better not have energy resistance or spell resistance. I'd say one option is to allow a full attack at 6th, just half the blast damage for the second shot, repeat at 11th and 16th.

[Rynjin]

Burn is a conceptually cool but mechanically stifling ability. Scrapping it entirely seems a shame, but it's probably the simplest fix.

Keeping it but as an "Overchannel" style ability that lets you access higher levels of power than normal rather than something you need to use ALL of your abilities is a good alternative IMO.

Keep in mind that either options would necessitate changing abilities like Elemental Overflow to just scale based on level and be always on instead of based on amount of Burn spent per day.

Remove the Burn bottleneck honestly fixes 90% of the issues with the class straight up.

The other 10% of issues come from damage being a bit low (adding something like +1 damage per level, +2 for Composite Blasts probably fixes that immediately) and the levels on certain abilities being set way too high (they don't get Fireball until level 13, WTF?). So easy fixes honestly.

[Aotrs Commander]

Interestingly enough, the feedback from Reddit overwhelmingly was of the opinion the class was not underpowered, and that the main bottlenecks were complexity of Burn and the lack of talents, notibly utility talents. I will thus be raiding some 3PP material suggested.

Current plan when I take a proper pass at is to make it more like the Warlock, with utility talents being made into invocations properly and some revision of Burn on a proper read of it, bearing in mind what had been said (and a particularly extensive guide that was linked). This also allows some cross-polination between Warlock and kineticist for invocations, which will hopefully broaden both classes' options.

[Rynjin]

Interestingly enough, the feedback from Reddit overwhelmingly was of the opinion the class was not underpowered

Sounds like the people of Reddit really don't know what they're talking about, since Kineticists are mathematically, intentionally underpowered.

[Maat Mons]

Something I don't like about Kineticist is that some of the Talents have prerequisites. You don't see Sorcerers being forced to use one of their precious spells known on Jump before they're allowed to learn Fly. For Talents that seem to form a natural progression, I'd merge them into one Talent that scales with level.

[Gnaeus]

Something I don't like about Kineticist is that some of the Talents have prerequisites. You don't see Sorcerers being forced to use one of their precious spells known on Jump before they're allowed to learn Fly. For Talents that seem to form a natural progression, I'd merge them into one Talent that scales with level.

That not only frees up talents but also makes the whole more forgiving to play, since you don't have to plan every talent for the one you want 4 levels later.

I also agree with scrapping burn.

[KillianHawkeye]

This is a bit complex since it likely requires a broad rework of the entire class. If you're already using a version of 3.5's Warlock, I would suggest editing the Kineticist to follow the same general mechanics.

As for an alternate class name, I'll suggest Elementalist.

[Aotrs Commander]

Sounds like the people of Reddit really don't know what they're talking about, since Kineticists are mathematically, intentionally underpowered.

Well, I'm quite open to hearing the rebuttal.

They linked me a fairly extensive guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VniMdd6X1noOA4KmBPzgflvyEWIHMl2tYawpjyFaZek/edit#), which had some useful numbers in it for me to refer to, which I will at least be referring to, as a start when come to do it.

[Rynjin]

Well, I'm quite open to hearing the rebuttal.

They linked me a fairly extensive guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VniMdd6X1noOA4KmBPzgflvyEWIHMl2tYawpjyFaZek/edit#), which had some useful numbers in it for me to refer to, which I will at least be referring to, as a start when come to do it.

Yeah, their DPR calcs are just raw average damage numbers. Let's pick a power spike level, say level 11. The sustainable "DPR" they list is 54; unsustainable 126.

Thing is, this isn't DPR. That's just the average damage listed. 12d6+12 = 54.

Actual DPR calcs take into account things like to-hit rate. So looking at a CR 11 creature, you're looking to chew on average through 145 HP, vs an AC of 25 (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation/) (touch I'll have to ballpark at about a 16, often lower). So even at optimal "DPR" (every attack hits and deals average damage) you need 3 rounds to kill the monster.

Staunchly average (and there's essentially no way to optimize your character beyond this average DPR). Remember an average COMBAT length of 3-4 rounds is expected in Pathfinder.

Your actual DPR is calculated using this formula:


h(d+s)+tchd.

h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.



So we'll look at a Physical blast first, like Earth. Physical blasts attack regular AC, and we're gonna need to make some extrapolations here. The Kineticist is level 11 (BaB of 8). We'll assume they have a Dex of 22 (+6 to-hit). They have Point Blank Shot (+1 to-hit). Kineticists lack most viable methods of raising their attack bonus compared to other characters, so we will stop here for now. You can optimize a bit more, but not much.

Unlike the document we are not going to ignore Con bonuses, but will ignore Elemental Overflow for now. Assume a Con of 20 (so +5 damage for an average of 59).

Plug that 59 damage and +15 to-hit into the formula.

H = 45% (.45)
D = 59
S = 0
T = 5% (.05)
C = 2

.45*59+.05*2*.45*59 = 26.55+ 2.655 = 29.205 DPR.

A STARK difference in what they claim the DPR actually is; the Kineticist in this scenario takes 5 rounds to kill a CR appropriate creature, not 3. That is below average, baseline, and further optimization would boost that to maybe average at best.

THAT is why the class is underpowered. It is "average at best". A fully optimized, fully kitted out, loaded for bar Kineticist is, at a baseline...average. They can spend Burn to nova a bit, but that still puts them roughly on par with or significantly BELOW the DPR of a dedicated archer Fighter...all while spending limited resources to at best match the output of someone who can do it all day, every day. Nova-ing roughly doubles the DPR of the Kineticist; even double their DPR is not that great.

The comparison looks slightly better for an Elemental Blast (we're back down to 54 DPR here), as their to-hit rate goes up to 95%. They get ~56 DPR which is...fine. Just fine. Not amazing, but not subpar either.

Of course they hit a different set of bottlenecks than Physical blast users, as Elemental blasts are subject to Spell Resistance and elemental resistances/immunities (which are both heftier and harder to bypass than Damage Reduction).

Enemies at CR 11 start to have SR as a matter of course. Picking a random CR 11 creature with Spell Resistance (a Wasp Demon), we can simulate DPR against that.

Assume the 56 DPR from before, but compare it against "AC" 22 (the SR 22 the demon has) and the Kineticist's "to-hit" bonus of +11 (their Caster Level check to overcome SR). We don't add the crit bonus because it's already factored in from before.

And the Elemental blast gets slashed to 28 DPR against a creature with Spell Resistance. We're not going to factor in elemental resistances/immunities here because that would be just cruel.

Kineticists:

-Have lower DPR than dedicated martial classes
-A harder time optimizing their damage (or anyone else) due to being mostly locked out of options available to every other character; casters and martials alike
-More obstacles to overcome to even hit their baseline damage (which is unimpressive)
-Wildly varying utility access between elemental types.

And a host of other issues which makes them subpar at worst and average at best. A Kineticist is impossible to build poorly. It is also impossible to build WELL due to how constricted its options are.

[Local_Jerk]

Interestingly enough, the feedback from Reddit overwhelmingly was of the opinion the class was not underpowered, and that the main bottlenecks were complexity of Burn and the lack of talents, notibly utility talents. I will thus be raiding some 3PP material suggested.

Current plan when I take a proper pass at is to make it more like the Warlock, with utility talents being made into invocations properly and some revision of Burn on a proper read of it, bearing in mind what had been said (and a particularly extensive guide that was linked). This also allows some cross-polination between Warlock and kineticist for invocations, which will hopefully broaden both classes' options.

Reddit is not only low optimization, they quite literally despise the idea of number crunching and min-maxing. They consider something like the base Barbarian to be a perfectly balanced class to play. And if even they admit that a lack of utility talents is a main class weakness, then this class legit can't be higher than Tier 4, now can it? And if, as the guy above is attempting to prove, even their damage is subpar....then Kinetichist is barely Tier 4 at that.

[Bucky]

Kineticists lack most viable methods of raising their attack bonus compared to other characters, so we will stop here for now. You can optimize a bit more, but not much.

Unlike the document we are not going to ignore Con bonuses, but will ignore Elemental Overflow for now. Assume a Con of 20 (so +5 damage for an average of 59).

One obvious optimization is to have already taken three points burn to activate the first Elemental Overflow size bonus: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 to hit, +7 damage. That bumps the 29.2 DPR to 47.2 DPR.

The other obvious optimization is to take advantage of the free infusion from Infusion Specialization. I'll suggest the universal Flurry of Blasts, which gives three attack rolls at level 11. Ignoring Elemental Overflow, your sample kineticist has a 83.4% to hit the main blast, with (unconditional) 33.4% chance of hitting a second time for a bonus 1d6, and 9% chance for all three hits for a bonus 2d6. Without precisely working out the conditional crit math, which I think allows a confirm if any of the individual rolls crit, the Flurry's DPR is about 56.

In other words, ignoring a kineticist's class features for increasing his damage makes him look subpar at it.

[Gnaeus]

Kineticists:

-Have lower DPR than dedicated martial classes
-A harder time optimizing their damage (or anyone else) due to being mostly locked out of options available to every other character; casters and martials alike
-More obstacles to overcome to even hit their baseline damage (which is unimpressive)
-Wildly varying utility access between elemental types.

And a host of other issues which makes them subpar at worst and average at best. A Kineticist is impossible to build poorly. It is also impossible to build WELL due to how constricted its options are.

I think what you are aiming at is that it is very easy to build a kineticist that can do that damage you analyzed. It is easy to build a kineticist poorly. You pick a damage type that is poorly suited for your campaign and back it up with suboptimal element/utility picks, which is made easier to screw up by the aforementioned need to have prereqs for good talents and weighing in burn requirements. I would say it is quite a bit easier to build a kineticist poorly than say an archery based ranger.

[Rynjin]

I think what you are aiming at is that it is very easy to build a kineticist that can do that damage you analyzed. It is easy to build a kineticist poorly. You pick a damage type that is poorly suited for your campaign and back it up with suboptimal element/utility picks, which is made easier to screw up by the aforementioned need to have prereqs for good talents and weighing in burn requirements. I would say it is quite a bit easier to build a kineticist poorly than say an archery based ranger.

Poorly I think is relative. The DPR I calculated up there is probably the lowest it gets; that is the damage given to you just by taking the class and you cannot **** that up. It's not very good...but it's not unplayable in the same way a poorly built Core Rogue is.

The issue is that the optimal damage output is only like 20% better.

In terms of utility? Absolutely you can build a Kineticist wrong. But in terms of damage? It hits very specific numerical targets by design and it is difficult to deviate from them either higher or lower than the average.

[Bucky]

Here are my minimal recommended upgrades to avoid the self-foot-shooting:
- Minimize the drawbacks of Burn. Burn doesn't deal self-damage. Instead, a Kineticist is Staggered when his Burn equals or exceeds his hit points. The CON-based burn limit and per-round burn cap still apply.
- A kineticist has all simple blasts for his elements from level 1. No need to specialize in physical vs. energy at low levels, unless you're earth or fire.
- Wild surges from Gather Power are cosmetic. They don't inflict burn.
- Internal Buffer replenishes each day.
- Gather Power may be performed while wielding a light or one-handed weapon.

And balance changes, on top of the above:
- Kinetic Blasts deal +2 base damage, shoring up the kineticist's low-level weakness at sustained damage.
- Gain a second Infusion at level 1, to further reduce the one-trick nature of novice kineticists.
- Signature streamlining: Flame Jet (and the other talents based on it) have Greater Flame Jet's effect rolled in. Air's Leap gets Wings of Air rolled in at level 6. Eyes of the Void, Woodland Step and Waterdancer get their Greater versions rolled in at level 10.
- Skilled Kineticist is a class feature from level 2 rather than a utility talent. This bolsters their out-of-combat contributions particularly at mid levels.
- Burn limit is now kineticist level + Con Mod minimum 5, since scaling it no longer allows the kineticist to knock himself out from burn alone. This makes it non-prohibitive to pay retail for those high level Burn 4 infusions.

[Gnaeus]

Poorly I think is relative. The DPR I calculated up there is probably the lowest it gets; that is the damage given to you just by taking the class and you cannot **** that up. It's not very good...but it's not unplayable in the same way a poorly built Core Rogue is.

The issue is that the optimal damage output is only like 20% better.

In terms of utility? Absolutely you can build a Kineticist wrong. But in terms of damage? It hits very specific numerical targets by design and it is difficult to deviate from them either higher or lower than the average.

Seems pretty easy to me. I watched avatar. I made an Icebender because its a frostburn campaign. I took cold blast. Everything seems immune to my damage.

[Rynjin]

Seems pretty easy to me. I watched avatar. I made an Icebender because its a frostburn campaign. I took cold blast. Everything seems immune to my damage.

I tend not to assume COMPLETE incompetence when talking about poor build choices; nor GM maliciousness.

[Gnaeus]

I tend not to assume COMPLETE incompetence when talking about poor build choices; nor GM maliciousness.

We have different standards of what complete incompetence means. Complete incompetence is making a kenny with low con and dex. Like making a wizard with 8 int. Making a character based on fiction that happens to translate badly mechanically in D&D is normal incompetence. And it isn't like cold or fire resistances are rare.

[Rynjin]

We have different standards of what complete incompetence means. Complete incompetence is making a kenny with low con and dex. Like making a wizard with 8 int. Making a character based on fiction that happens to translate badly mechanically in D&D is normal incompetence. And it isn't like cold or fire resistances are rare.

Maybe.

Anyway, they aren't rare, but I would expect any non-adversarial GM to pull the Kineticist player aside and say "In this campaign many monsters may be resistant or outright immune to Cold damage; would you prefer to use the Bludgeoning option instead? Everything else about your character works fine".

[Maat Mons]

The bludgeoning option isn't cold-themed. The only 0-burn, cold-themed option is the one he took. And making a cold-themed character in a cold-themed campaign should not only be possible, but encouraged.

If you ask me, it's an innate problem that there even exists the option to make a Kineticist that can only deal one type of damage with his blast, let alone one restricted to one of the most commonly-resisted damage types. There really should exist a simple (i.e. 0-burn), physical blast which involves hurling a chunk of ice at someone. And Kineticists should start with two simple blasts.

Also, the class should be more consistent about how versatile any given blast is. Among the simple blasts, Air, Gravity, and Water are bludgeoning only. While Earth, Telekinetic, and Wood get their choice of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing each time. If the standard is one damage type for physical attacks, then Earth Blast could, for example, be split into Stalactite, which deal piecing damage, and Boulder, which deals bludgeoning damage. Wood Blast could have a similar treatment. Telekinetic Blast can probably keep all three damage types as compensation for needing an appropriate object nearby.

[Rynjin]

"Houserule it so they get all Simple blasts" is a pretty easy fix to that issue, honestly. The only one left to get screwed is Fire, but Fire also has the best tools to overcome their weaknesses, so it kind of evens out.

Earth doesn't need to be nerfed; other physical blasts need to be put on its level.

[Maat Mons]

Just splitting the good blast talents into multiple, worse ones would be a nerf. Just giving more blast talents would be a buff. Doing both at the same time would more or less cancel out.

[Aotrs Commander]

Just going to drop in to say, I have been following along and especially taking note Rynjin's analysis, which I will refer to definitely when I have a proper look at this.




For the physical elements, taking into consideration the above, I think what I will do is start directly adapting my houserules elemental rules for my homebrew campaign world. While integrated into the main rules for ease, these are generally slightly cordoned off and ignored outside that specific setting (because Dreemaenhyll has, like nine elements (light, electricity, heat, air, earth, water, cold, nether, shadow) before you get to compounds (fire, dust, ooze, magma, steam, mist, ice...)!) However, in this instance, I think that the intended equivalences probably merit ignoring the usual seperarion. In that subset of rules, the physical elements (pertinent to this case, Air/Water/Earth) are treated as explictly a "x and [element]" damage (e.g. Air and Slashing), are inhernetly treated as a magical attack.

(Additionally, on said homebrew, the element is a bypass against damage reduction of opposed elementals, thus a Dreemaenhyll Air subtype creature would have, instead of, like an energy resistance like a Cold-subtype, DR x/Earth or Water, though that's not pertinent to normal games, not without revising the bestiary AGAIN...!)

I am thus going to treat them as fundamentally no different from the energy elements; off the top of my head, I'm going with them ALL being ranged touch and, say D6+Con modifier (plus 2?); Air, Earth and Water will also be "and [element]" which might not help too much against DR (so no SR or energy resitances, so...) but has the minor benefit of meaning that stuff that is immune to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage will still be suspectible to the attacks.

Gravity will become Nether (and energy) anyway (since nether, which is a bit like anti-lightning, creates gravity when been conducted through stome like electricity creates magnetism through metal).

Wood would be kind of rubbish, still, I'll grant you. I might considered scrapping that entirely, honestly, since even with default options there's going to be light (radiant) and shadow (anti-lasers) by my standard houserules. ALTHOUGH, I can see a certain appeal to going full Bulbasaur on it having giving it a choice of solarbeam... (To compensate for wood being... a bit crap, you might have three simple blasts, wood/positive/radiant... But then that's almost better than Actual Laser Bending, innit. Something to mull over. Acid, maybe? In liu poison damage Not A Thing. Hrm,, actually... That's not a bad idea, I don't think I saw an acid blast.



One option I will DEFINITELY add in though, is to crib Ascedant Element from Owlcat!Mythic (and now 3.Aotrs Mythic) and apply it to kineticists as part of thir class progression. I do like the idea of playing a solo-element character rather than making everyong Aang... So giving the class inhernetly an ability that says "nope, you resistances and immunitues don't matter mate, I'm totally burning your Fire elemental" seems like a must. (Off the top of my head, I would say around the mid-point, but I'll determine that properly later on.)

[Prime32]

My concept for a Kineticist fix was

Do away with burn, or at least have lower burn costs instead of high costs + multiple class features that reduce it in specific situations
Give them something along the lines of the Terrakineticist archetype (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Kineticist%20Terra kineticist), which changes their element based on the terrain.


I ended up taking inspiration from various "spirit-user" characters and folding it together with the medium class to produce this:


Class Skills: An elemental medium’s class skills are Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Fly, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering, engineering, geography, planes, nature), Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand and Spellcraft.
This alters the medium’s class skills.

Wild Talents: Some of an elemental medium’s abilities allow her to use wild talents, as the kineticist class. Your wild talents granted by this archetype count as medium spells of equal level for the purpose of save DCs and concentration checks. Whenever you would incur burn, your spirit gains that much influence over you instead.
Any other effect of your wild talents which would be based on Constitution is based on Charisma instead.
Whenever you gain access to a new level of medium spells, you also learn one wild talent of any level up to half your caster level. This may be a universal wild talent or one associated with any element.
This replaces knacks and one of the medium’s spells known at each spell level.

Elemental Spirit (Su): In place of channeling one the six legend spirits available to a standard medium, an elemental medium calls out to myriad minor spirits affiliated with one of the primal elements – aether, air, earth, fire, void, water or wood.
An elemental spirit can be channeled anywhere, regardless of its favored locations, in a seance that takes 10 minutes (but see Beseech Spirits below). Standard elemental spirits have no taboos or influence penalty. In place of spirit powers, they grant the basic utility talent of the associated kineticist element, as well as one of its simple blasts (e.g. the Aether spirit would grant basic telekinesis and telekinetic blast). You gain a bonus on damage rolls with energy blasts equal to your spirit bonus, and with physical blasts equal to double your spirit bonus.

Aether

Spirit Bonus: Your spirit bonus applies on Knowledge (engineering) and Sleight of Hand checks. You also add your spirit bonus to AC against touch attacks, to a maximum of your non-touch AC.
Seance Boon: Your attacks count as magic for interacting with incorporeal creatures. If they are already magic then they gain the ghost touch property. If you use the force blast wild talent while under the effects of this seance boon, its damage dice increase to d10s.
Favored Locations: urban, Ethereal Plane


Air

Spirit Bonus: Your spirit bonus applies on Fly and Knowledge (nature) checks, as well as on Charisma-based checks which involve speaking Auran. You also gain electricity resistance equal to double your spirit bonus.
Seance Boon: You are immune to altitude sickness, and count as one size category larger for determining how you are affected by wind.
Favored Locations: hill, mountain, plains, Plane of Air


Earth

Spirit Bonus: Your spirit bonus applies on Climb and Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks, as well as on Charisma-based checks which involve speaking Terran. You also gain acid resistance equal to double your spirit bonus.
Seance Boon: You ignore difficult terrain caused by rocks, earth or mud.
Favored Locations: underground, Plane of Earth


Fire

Spirit Bonus: Your spirit bonus applies on Escape Artist and Knowledge (nature) checks, as well as on Charisma-based checks which involve speaking Ignan. You also gain fire resistance equal to double your spirit bonus.
Seance Boon: You gain the benefits of the endure elements spell for the seance’s duration, but against warm temperatures only.
Favored Locations: desert, Plane of Fire


Void

Spirit Bonus: Your spirit bonus applies on Escape Artist and Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks, as well as on Charisma-based checks which do not involve language. You also add your spirit bonus on saving throws against divination effects.
Seance Boon: You gain the benefits of the hide from undead spell for the seance’s duration. If the spell ends for you, other participants are unaffected.
Favored Locations: Negative Energy Plane


Water

Spirit Bonus: Your spirit bonus applies on Knowledge (nature) and Swim checks, as well as on Charisma-based checks which involve speaking Aquan. You also gain cold resistance equal to double your spirit bonus.
Seance Boon: You gain the benefits of the endure elements spell for the seance’s duration, but against cold temperatures only.
Favored Locations: cold, swamp, water, Plane of Water


Wood

Spirit Bonus: Your spirit bonus applies on Fly and Knowledge (nature) checks, as well as on Charisma-based checks which involve speaking Sylvan. You also subtract your spirit bonus from the total bonus to AC and Reflex saves that opponents receive against you from cover and/or a shield (minimum +0).
Seance Boon: You gain woodland stride, as per the druid ability.
Favored Locations: forest, jungle, First World, Positive Energy Plane

This alters spirit.

Channeling Pool (Su): An elemental medium has a pool of points at the start of each day equal to her Charisma modifier, representing her authority over the spirits in her environment. Whenever using a wild talent would cause a spirit to gain influence over her, she may instead spend an equal number of points from her channeling pool.

Beseech Spirits (Su): As a move action, an elemental medium can call out to nearby elemental spirits to come to her aid. Anything which would prevent her from casting a spell with a verbal component also prevents her from using this ability. She may speak with the spirits in one of two ways:


Instant Seance: The medium calls out to a nearby elemental spirit, immediately channeling it as though she had performed a seance. An instant seance does not grant a seance boon, though previous seance boons remain in effect. Any influence your spirit had over you is transferred to the new spirit.
Unlike a normal elemental seance, in order to use this ability the medium must possess a link to one of the associated locations of the chosen element – she must either be in such a location OR have the favored terrain class feature keyed to such a location.
Precise Command: The medium speaks instructions aloud to the spirits, allowing her to direct them more efficiently. This reduces the burn cost of the next wild talent she uses this round by an amount equal to her spirit bonus (minimum 0 burn).


Elemental Whispers (Su): At 2nd level, you gain the elemental whispers universal wild talent. You cannot manifest your familiar from this talent except while channelling an element, and it disappears once you are no longer channeling that element.
This replaces taboo.

Elemental Defence (Su): At 3rd level, while channeling an elemental spirit, the medium gains its defense wild talent. Any burn she invests in a defense wild talent is released once she is no longer channelling the spirit which provided that talent.
This replaces haunt channeler.

Elemental Knowledge: At 6th , 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th levels, while channeling an elemental spirit you gain one wild talent from the list associated with that element, as long as its level is no more than one-third your caster level. You cannot learn a wild talent from the universal list in this way.
You may change these bonus talents each time you channel a spirit. If you are channeling multiple elemental spirits at once then your bonus talents may be selected from any of their elements, though you do not gain any more talents than normal.
This replaces propitiation and spacious soul.

Terrain Affinity: At 7th level and again at 15th level, you gain one favored terrain, as the ranger class feature. This does not grant increased bonuses for any of your existing favored terrains.
This replaces connection channel.

Twin Pact: At 7th level, you may have up to two different elemental spirits channeled at once, gaining the effects of both. While doing so, you can mix the simple blasts of both elements to produce a stronger effect – you gain any composite blasts for which you meet the prerequisites.
All of your spirits share a single pool of influence.

High Spirit: At 7th level, for each of your favored terrains you select one legend (archmage, champion, guardian, hierophant, marshal or trickster). You may change this selection each time you gain a character level.
When you perform a seance in one of your favored terrains, in place of two channeled elemental spirits you may channel a high elemental spirit which embodies the chosen legend.
A high elemental spirit functions as a standard elemental spirit, except that it grants both simple blasts of its element rather than one, and allows the medium to use any composite blasts reliant solely on that element. In addition it gains the spirit bonus and influence penalty of one standard medium spirit corresponding to its legend (stacking with its existing spirit bonus), as well a special ability specific to the legend chosen:


Archmage: Bonus wild talents from your elemental knowledge class feature may be of any level up to half your caster level. Reduce the combined cost of infusion wild talents by 1 (minimum 0).
If your caster level is 11th or higher, you also gain Kinetic Invocation keyed to this element as a bonus feat, and the combined cost of infusion wild talents is reduced by 2 instead of 1.
Champion: You gain the elemental grip and kinetic fist wild talents, and their burn costs are reduced to 0.
If your caster level is 11th or higher, you also gain the kinetic form wild talent and its burn cost is reduced to 0.
Guardian: You gain the kinetic whip infusion wild talent. You cannot perform kinetic blasts with this element, except in conjuction with kinetic whip or other infusion wild talents with kinetic blade as a prerequisite, but the burn cost of these talents is reduced to 0.
If your caster level is 11th or higher, you also gain the whip hurricane infusion wild talent.
Hierophant: You gain the infernal bargain wild talent, except that you may apply it to beneficial wild talents, to the effects of your seance boon, and to spells you cast from the abjuration, conjuration (healing), enchantment, or transmutation schools.
If your caster level is 11th or higher, you also gain the shepherd of souls infusion wild talent, and its burn cost is reduced to 0.
Marshal: You gain the kinetic awe wild talent. You may use this talent as a full-round action to gain a bonus on your Intimidate check equal to half your caster level.
If your caster level is 11th or higher, you also gain the spark of life wild talent, except that the elemental summoned gains the advanced template.
Trickster: You gain the extended range infusion wild talent, and its burn cost is reduced to 0.
If your caster level is 11th or higher, you also gain the ride the blast wild talent.


Many Paths: At 15th level you may have up to three elemental spirits channelled at once.
In addition, when channeling a high spirit you may have it count as three spirits rather than two. If you do, it also grants you the intermediate spirit power from the standard medium spirit of the same name. If that power has a limited number of uses per day, uses remain consumed even if you expel that spirit and channel it again.
This replaces trance of three.

One With the Elements: At 20th level you are always considered to be channeling the air, earth, fire and water spirits in addition to your normal spirits. You cannot expel these spirits, though each time you perform a seance you may choose to change their parameters or upgrade them to high spirits.

[Kitsuneymg]

Honestly, if you want a warlock type caster, just cherry pick from Spheres of Magic. It does what all the warlock-a-likes do, but better.

If you only want something that fills that specific niche of flying elemental damage dude, then just take the Elementalist for example. .

[Darg]

I haven't played the TT kineticist but I do have thoughts on how it plays in the owlcat CRPGs.

First thought is that burn isn't meant to be spent first thing everyday. Currently, the mechanics don't support that style of play during the early levels because there isn't much value to spend burn later in the day. Get your elemental overflow boosts and your defensive wild talent boosted. Ultimately, I would have liked to see more substance and form infusion wild talents at lower levels to give more value to waiting to spend burn beyond the utility wild talents. A real QoL change here would be that your defensive wild talent goes up passively from burn spent on other wild talents. You could still invest in it on its own, but it would also improve from say spending burn on kinetic healer. This makes burn more of a trade off while providing compensation for the loss of survivability.

Second thought is that burn hitting current HP instead of your maximum is really painful for a primary class mechanic in a game that can be wildly random at times. The change I would implement here is to simply change it to reduce maximum HP only until they both match and then reduce the current so your current HP is never higher than your maximum. This way something like kinetic healer is actually healing you instead of harming you at the same time and it makes spending burn within a moment not such a weighty choice.

Third thought, form infusions require too high of a level. Deadly earth at 13? Cyclone at 9? Cloud at 15? Most of the AoE infusions have a high burn cost and do reduced damage when regular magic counterparts come online 5 levels earlier, can have more uses per day, and scale faster without reducing uses per day even further. Cyclone/chain at level 5 would be extremely level appropriate which is to say won't blow any thing or one out of the water.

Final thought, it needs more composite combinations and wild talent element inclusion. There is no reason that ice or blizzard can't create a deadly earth equivalent using ice or snow/cold for example.

A side thought, precise shot isn't quite as necessary in the TT as it is in the CRPG but that feat tax is incredibly painful in the CRPG.

[Gnaeus]

I haven't played the TT kineticist but I do have thoughts on how it plays in the owlcat CRPGs.

First thought is that burn isn't meant to be spent first thing everyday. Currently, the mechanics don't support that style of play during the early levels because there isn't much value to spend burn later in the day. Get your elemental overflow boosts and your defensive wild talent boosted. Ultimately, I would have liked to see more substance and form infusion wild talents at lower levels to give more value to waiting to spend burn beyond the utility wild talents. A real QoL change here would be that your defensive wild talent goes up passively from burn spent on other wild talents. You could still invest in it on its own, but it would also improve from say spending burn on kinetic healer. This makes burn more of a trade off while providing compensation for the loss of survivability.


One obvious optimization is to have already taken three points burn to activate the first Elemental Overflow size bonus: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 to hit, +7 damage. That bumps the 29.2 DPR to 47.2 DPR.

In other words, ignoring a kineticist's class features for increasing his damage makes him look subpar at it.

I don't think thats obvious at all. I'm not saying that it isn't optimal. It probably is. Most of my experience with kineticist is in going "oh, this seems like a kineticist role" then rereading the guides, building it, and realizing when I am done that it would be easier, stronger and more versatile as an alchemist with a discovery for whatever element I want, or a sorcerer or arcanist. But it certainly doesn't seem intuitive that you start out your day by eating a bunch of unhealable damage for an attack buff. And if we don't always agree on it, it seems odd to expect it as a baseline for play.

[Rynjin]

One obvious optimization is to have already taken three points burn to activate the first Elemental Overflow size bonus: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 to hit, +7 damage. That bumps the 29.2 DPR to 47.2 DPR.

The other obvious optimization is to take advantage of the free infusion from Infusion Specialization. I'll suggest the universal Flurry of Blasts, which gives three attack rolls at level 11. Ignoring Elemental Overflow, your sample kineticist has a 83.4% to hit the main blast, with (unconditional) 33.4% chance of hitting a second time for a bonus 1d6, and 9% chance for all three hits for a bonus 2d6. Without precisely working out the conditional crit math, which I think allows a confirm if any of the individual rolls crit, the Flurry's DPR is about 56.

In other words, ignoring a kineticist's class features for increasing his damage makes him look subpar at it.

Sorry, I missed this post until it was quoted.

Thing is, 56 DPR at level 11 is also pretty meh, as I already mentioned (that's the baseline DPR for an Elemental Blast in optimal conditions).

I'm also not sure how you're clocking Flurry of Blasts as a DPR increase given that it starkly reduces your damage output.

Remember, Flurry of Blasts is calculated as if you were 1st level. That means you're dropping from an all-or-nothing 12d6+17 (average 59) damage blast to an optimal (if all 3 blasts hit) 3d6+8. Even if you assume every single blast crits, that's only 6d6+16, a pretty hefty damage reduction.

And Elemental Overflow doesn't even apply to this if you want it to, thanks to this clause: "effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s damage don’t apply".

Correct me if I'm missing something somehow, but Flurry of Blasts seems like a classic trap option save for Pushing Infusion shenanigans (which ARE fun to be fair).

I'll post the relevant text with the bit that makes it suck bolded, for posterity:


Instead of a single kinetic blast, you shoot two kinetic blasts at targets within 120 feet that each deal damage as if your kineticist level were 1st (effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s damage don’t apply). At 10th level, you can shoot three blasts with flurry of blasts; this increases to four blasts at 16th level and to five blasts at 20th level. If you are under the effect of haste or similar magic that increases your number of attacks in a full-attack action, the number of kinetic blasts in your flurry of blasts increases by 1.

No two targets can be more than 30 feet apart. You must assign the targets of all your blasts before rolling any of the attacks. Any blast beyond the first that hits the same target adds 1d6 points of damage; bonuses and penalties to damage don’t apply. If you are using a substance infusion that requires a saving throw, a target attempts its save only once (even if it was hit multiple times), but it takes a penalty on the save equal to the number of times it was hit beyond the first. If you are using a substance infusion that requires a caster level check or combat maneuver check, you roll the check only once against each target, but you gain a bonus on the check equal to the number of times that target was hit beyond the first. If you are using the pushing substance infusion, the maximum distance of the push increases by 5 feet for each time the target was hit beyond the first.

Edit: Were you maybe confusing it with the Elemental Annihilator's Flurry of Devastation?


You can make a full attack of devastating infusions against targets within 120 feet as a full-attack action. Each individual attack deals damage as a devastating infusion.

Abilities such as Rapid Shot and haste that grant additional attacks apply normally to this full attack. If you make only melee attacks with this infusion, you can use the Two-Weapon Fighting feats (unlike with the kinetic blade wild talent), but ranged attacks made this way do not work with Two-Weapon Fighting. For your off-hand attacks with Two-Weapon Fighting, you add half your Constitution modifier to the damage (increasing to your full Constitution modifier if you have Double Slice). Though you can normally mix melee and ranged attacks with your flurry of devastation, you can’t do so when you use Two-Weapon Fighting. You can never use metakinesis or substance infusions with flurry of devastation.

This one IS actually quite good since you get to add your static bonuses to each hit instead of just once.

[KillianHawkeye]

I play a Kineticist at level 8 in one of the games I'm in, and at this point I honestly do start my day taking 3 points of burn to activate my elemental overload or whatever it's called. I have so many more hit points than anyone else in my party (not that anyone is playing super optimized characters or anything), that even with 3 burn, I'm still on par with most of them and as a ranged attacker I rarely get directly attacked anyway.

At earlier levels, it wouldn't have been worth doing, but now I feel able to afford the burn cost.

[Darg]

I don't think thats obvious at all. I'm not saying that it isn't optimal. It probably is. Most of my experience with kineticist is in going "oh, this seems like a kineticist role" then rereading the guides, building it, and realizing when I am done that it would be easier, stronger and more versatile as an alchemist with a discovery for whatever element I want, or a sorcerer or arcanist. But it certainly doesn't seem intuitive that you start out your day by eating a bunch of unhealable damage for an attack buff. And if we don't always agree on it, it seems odd to expect it as a baseline for play.

You don't have to start your day that way. You can spend burn in any number of ways that elemental overflow doesn't apply to like utility wild talents or form infusions that require a save. In this way you can get your overflow bonuses without really going out of your way. It just leaves your defensive wild talent not utilized so it just feels wrong.

[pabelfly]

*snip*

Rynjin showing why the only thing you should use Reddit for is hackneyed DnD memes and art.

[Aotrs Commander]

Let me preface this by saying I appreciate the responses and help given by the thread so far. However:


Rynjin showing why the only thing you should use Reddit for is hackneyed DnD memes and art.

That was rather rude to the people on the Pathfinder Reddit that made as much effort to respond to me as anyone here has, and in good faith. Especially given that the Pathfinder reddit consistently gives me some responses to my occasional threads, which is, I'm sorry to say, is more than I can expect to get from the Playground these days. (Case in-point, a few weeks ago when I posted up something on PF1-ising a couple of PF2 races on both places; there, I had a couple of helpful responses; here, nothing.)

So I will politely ask that everyone please keep their personal tribalisms and "us" verses "them" out of this thread and let's please keep the discourse civil and on the topic of the class in question. Thank you.

[Rynjin]

Personally, I don't have anything against Reddit; I use it myself. Someone earlier in the thread put it IMO more diplomatically (and accurately); the people on the RPG subReddits are singularly uninterested in optimization compared to other corners of the TTRPG net.

Running the math isn't really a concern for a lot of these guides, but it's important for this class specifically. Mark Seifter is known for having very tight mathematical limitations imposed on classes he designs. It's good to know what those are before they can be "broken".

[Bucky]

I don't think thats obvious at all. I'm not saying that it isn't optimal. It probably is. Most of my experience with kineticist is in going "oh, this seems like a kineticist role" then rereading the guides, building it, and realizing when I am done that it would be easier, stronger and more versatile as an alchemist with a discovery for whatever element I want, or a sorcerer or arcanist. But it certainly doesn't seem intuitive that you start out your day by eating a bunch of unhealable damage for an attack buff.

I am merely assuming that it is obvious that kineticists should use their class features. Assuming a kineticist uses Elemental Overflow while trying to DPS is about the same, in my view, as assuming a vanilla Fighter will use a weapon he has Weapon Training with. It won't always apply, but since it's in the class table and generally applicable a typical neophyte will use it.



Edit: Were you maybe confusing it with the Elemental Annihilator's Flurry of Devastation?

(E): No, I just overlooked "deal damage as if your kineticist level were 1st (effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s damage don’t apply)." entirely. The RAW is broken (in a bad way), preventing even the extra damage dice for hitting with multiple blasts; it does a maximum of 1d6+1 (+CON, maybe) regardless of the circumstances. At which point, yes, it's very bad.

However, the point that the free Infusion shouldn't be ignored still stands. Even a baseline Focused Blast (+1 to hit and penetrate SR, no caveats) significantly bumps the numbers.

[Gnaeus]

I am merely assuming that it is obvious that kineticists should use their class features. Assuming a kineticist uses Elemental Overflow while trying to DPS is about the same, in my view, as assuming a vanilla Fighter will use a weapon he has Weapon Training with. It won't always apply, but since it's in the class table and generally applicable a typical neophyte will use it.
.
That would be true if using weapon specialization costs damage. I would assume that most people avoid taking unhealable damage under non- emergency situations. I mean those 2 things (burn and weapon specialization) are absolutely not comparable at all. I would only ever assume that for a player running analysis of dpr, and honestly not even necessarily then. I would actually suspect that some tables would call it metagaming (you hurt yourself every morning to do extra damage? Why?)

[Darg]

I guess I'm misreading flurry of blasts. What's so bad about it? At level 7/9 you get 2 blasts +1 from haste. If you hit a singular target all 3 times you do 3 blasts of damage + 2d6 with a -2 penalty on the save/+2 CMB. At level 20 you get 5 blasts + 1 haste + up to 5d6 extra damage. It doesn’t prevent metakinesis as they don't directly improve damage, they just modify how you roll your die, nor composite blasts. So if you average hitting 50% of the time with 18 con, hasted at level 9 with an energy blast you'll have an 87.5% chance of doing at least 1d6+2, 75% chance of at least 3d6+4, and 50% chance of doing 5d6+6. A normal blast has a flat 50% chance of doing 5d6+2. Change that to a 25% chance to hit and the flurry has a 57% chance of 1 hit, 44% chance for 2, and 25% chance to hit 3 times. At 20 the damage gets a little better. If you hit all 6 times you'd do 11d6+12 vs the 10d6+2 as normal.

Basically you're paying 2 burn for potential for slightly more damage, reliably higher single target damage, potential for AoE application, increases the chance of a critical hit (in case you like critical hit effects), and increases the likelihood of your substance infusion working/landing.

Also, while it's not that great for AoE application of substance infusions, it would allow you to pick targets and only costs 2 burn vs other AoE infusions.

[Rynjin]

I guess I'm misreading flurry of blasts. What's so bad about it?

Re-read the bit I bolded again. It's easy to miss because everything about Kineticist is a barely-formatted brick of text, but the blasts are all calculated as if they're first level (so 1d6+1+Con+any other static bonuses) AND if you hit a single target with multiple they don't deal damage three times, they just add an extra 1d6 to the first blast (so making it 2-4d6+1+Con+any other static bonuses).

At level 11 you're dealing 6d6 base damage, plus all of the static bonuses Flurry adds. Flurry is a max 3d6 if you hit all attacks. So the BEST CASE is that you lose 3d6 damage for no reason.

It also doesn't help that "any other static bonuses" is also technically not true by RAW due to this clause "effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s damage don’t apply", but I think that is intended to exclude abilities like Elemental Overflow, not your Con bonus or anything else you'd natively add to any ranged attack so I added them in for fairness.

[Bucky]

That would be true if using weapon specialization costs damage. I would assume that most people avoid taking unhealable damage under non- emergency situations. I mean those 2 things (burn and weapon specialization) are absolutely not comparable at all. I would only ever assume that for a player running analysis of dpr, and honestly not even necessarily then. I would actually suspect that some tables would call it metagaming (you hurt yourself every morning to do extra damage? Why?)

I am not outright assuming that the kineticist starts each day by spending enough burn to max out overflow. I'm assuming that the kineticist generally uses burn during the adventuring day, and knows it, and most of the combat happens after some burn has been spent. Internal Buffer means the first two (at the level 11) burn gets frontloaded to activate the overflow and spent later. Then, the third point of burn grants +2 CON from Elemental Overflow and thus costs no effective HP. Therefore, it seems reasonable to say that a level 11 kineticist who is willing to use his class features will probably have at least 3 burn for most of the day's combat.

If you have a severe aversion to burning yourself at all, you probably wouldn't have built the character as a kineticist in the first place.


It also doesn't help that "any other static bonuses" is also technically not true by RAW due to this clause "effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s damage don’t apply", but I think that is intended to exclude abilities like Elemental Overflow, not your Con bonus or anything else you'd natively add to any ranged attack so I added them in for fairness.
This RAW is even more absurd than skipping Con bonuses. You can't empower it with Metakinesis. You get the Con bonus, because it's part of the basic blast damage, but without any Con increases from level-ups as a Kineticist. The additional hits don't actually contribute that 1d6 extra damage. If you have sneak attack dice, your sneak attack still triggers but does no extra damage. Your flurry with fire blasts does not do double damage to creatures that take double damage from fire vulnerability. And so forth. You can upgrade to 2d6 damage dice with a composite blast, however.

It's still useful as a carrier for substance infusions, even with its damage gutted.

[vasilidor]

I have to recommend the sphere system again.

It was mentioned once, but it seems that people just went past without noticing.
You can recreate the Warlock or make a Kineticist like character that actually functions without too much effort. It even has a class called the Elementalist.

I recently have been toying with characters that use the Nature Sphere in different capacities. Combine that with the Destruction Sphere and you have a character that functions like how the Kineticist is supposed to without much fuss.

There is also a Wiki site for it that has been OK'd by the creators.

http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/

So you can check things out without spending money.

I do recommend buying a book if you like their stuff though.

[Darg]

Re-read the bit I bolded again. It's easy to miss because everything about Kineticist is a barely-formatted brick of text, but the blasts are all calculated as if they're first level (so 1d6+1+Con+any other static bonuses) AND if you hit a single target with multiple they don't deal damage three times, they just add an extra 1d6 to the first blast (so making it 2-4d6+1+Con+any other static bonuses).

At level 11 you're dealing 6d6 base damage, plus all of the static bonuses Flurry adds. Flurry is a max 3d6 if you hit all attacks. So the BEST CASE is that you lose 3d6 damage for no reason.

It also doesn't help that "any other static bonuses" is also technically not true by RAW due to this clause "effects or abilities that increase your kinetic blast’s damage don’t apply", but I think that is intended to exclude abilities like Elemental Overflow, not your Con bonus or anything else you'd natively add to any ranged attack so I added them in for fairness.

But that's not what it says though...


Any blast beyond the first that hits the same target adds 1d6 points of damage;

No where does it say that it negates the damage of the individual blasts. Unless I'm really missing something. Maybe paizo mentioned it somewhere?

[Rynjin]

But that's not what it says though...



No where does it say that it negates the damage of the individual blasts. Unless I'm really missing something. Maybe paizo mentioned it somewhere?

The text immediately after that in the same sentence is: "bonuses and penalties to damage don’t apply"

[Darg]

The text immediately after that in the same sentence is: "bonuses and penalties to damage don’t apply"

At level 11, 4 hits would be 7d6+2 damage then, not 3d6 as you think. Getting hit with a blast is not a bonus or penalty so that damage is not negated by that statement. The only meaning I get out of that statement is that you wouldn't stack modifiers multiple times (the +1 that physical blasts get isn't a bonus so it would be 7d6+8 damage).

[Rynjin]

At level 11, 4 hits would be 7d6+2 damage then, not 3d6 as you think. Getting hit with a blast is not a bonus or penalty so that damage is not negated by that statement. The only meaning I get out of that statement is that you wouldn't stack modifiers multiple times (the +1 that physical blasts get isn't a bonus so it would be 7d6+8 damage).

I'm not sure where you're getting 7d6. It's 1d6 per hit, times 3 hits.

[Darg]

I'm not sure where you're getting 7d6. It's 1d6 per hit, times 3 hits.

add 1d6 for every hit beyond the first. 1d6 first hit. 1d6 +1d6 second hit. 1d6 + 1d6 third hit. 1d6 + 1d6 fourth hit. haste adds +1 blast.

[Rynjin]

add 1d6 for every hit beyond the first. 1d6 first hit. 1d6 +1d6 second hit. 1d6 + 1d6 third hit. 1d6 + 1d6 fourth hit. haste adds +1 blast.

That is...not how that works.

[Darg]

That is...not how that works.


Instead of a single kinetic blast, you shoot two kinetic blasts at targets within 120 feet that each deal damage as if your kineticist level were 1st

Any blast beyond the first that hits the same target adds 1d6 points of damage; bonuses and penalties to damage don’t apply.

But it is what it says. It never negates the first bolded statement other than removing modifiers after the first blast. If it had the intention of not adding damage and instead just wanted to strip the modifiers, it would have been simpler to just remove "adds 1d6 points of damage." The quote adds a point of alternative meaning; hence the discussion.

[Rynjin]

Yes, it adds 1d6 points of damage. It does not add 1d6+1d6+1 points of damage, then 1d6+1d6+1d6+1 points of damage.

Edit: I think I see your confusion. For clarity, standard wording for how you are imagining it would work would be "each successive hit deals an additional 1d6 damage". "Adds an extra 1d6" is just that; an extra 1d6. Not an extra hit plus 1d6 additional damage.

[RedWarlock]

Yes, it adds 1d6 points of damage. It does not add 1d6+1d6+1 points of damage, then 1d6+1d6+1d6+1 points of damage.

Edit: I think I see your confusion. For clarity, standard wording for how you are imagining it would work would be "each successive hit deals an additional 1d6 damage". "Adds an extra 1d6" is just that; an extra 1d6. Not an extra hit plus 1d6 additional damage.

I can see both ways.

The one benefit I can see, the extra-D6s interpretation does put that effect more in line with damage expectations. Point in favor.

[Darg]

Yes, it adds 1d6 points of damage. It does not add 1d6+1d6+1 points of damage, then 1d6+1d6+1d6+1 points of damage.

Edit: I think I see your confusion. For clarity, standard wording for how you are imagining it would work would be "each successive hit deals an additional 1d6 damage". "Adds an extra 1d6" is just that; an extra 1d6. Not an extra hit plus 1d6 additional damage.

That's what it says though. Scorching ray doesn't need to declare that each ray on the same target does its damage for the assumption to be so. What exactly makes flurry of blasts different? Do you have an example to show that your interpretation is the standard the rules use?

[Rynjin]

That's what it says though. Scorching ray doesn't need to declare that each ray on the same target does its damage for the assumption to be so. What exactly makes flurry of blasts different? Do you have an example to show that your interpretation is the standard the rules use?

Scorching Ray is a very good example, and it does indeed do exactly the thing you say it doesn't. Compare/contrast: "Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage" and "Any blast beyond the first that hits the same target adds 1d6 points of damage".

Basically any effect that works as you think Flurry of Blasts should be is worded the way Scorching Ray is.

Fiery Shuriken: "Each shuriken requires a ranged touch attack roll to hit and deals 1d8 points of fire damage"

Alternately, they have wording like this:

Battering Blast: "On a successful hit, you deal 1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6). For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force."

This denoting that these are separate attacks each with the same damage.

"Adds 1d6 points of damage" is instead closer to the wording of something like the Flaming weapon property:

Flaming: deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage"

or Assault Synergy: "add +1d6 points of energy damage to an offensive spell he casts that round."

It's a 1-time damage, not worded as something like "each successive bolt deals an additional 1d6 damage". Just "adds 1d6 damage". The ability is meant to encourage you to strike multiple foes with your Flurry to make them all save against some kind of Substance Infusion.

The difference between "adds 1d6" and "deals an additional 1d6" (as per abilities like Sneak Attack) are huge.

[Darg]

Instead of a single kinetic blast, you shoot two kinetic blasts at targets within 120 feet that each deal damage as if your kineticist level were 1st

Don't forget this part of the infusion. It is not negated by adding 1d6 damage on successive hits.

[Rynjin]

Don't forget this part of the infusion. It is not negated by adding 1d6 damage on successive hits.

I wish I could find the ability or spell I'm thinking of that works like Flurry, because it would make this a lot easier.

That said, the funniest part about this is that even in your best case scenario...it still deals less damage than just firing a single unmodified blast.

It also wouldn't deal 7d6 regardless. The 1d6 is at no point said to be cumulative, so it would theoretically be 5d6 (3d6 regular blasts, two additional d6 from all hits on the same target). It would not under any circumstances be a 1d6 blast followed by a 2d6 blast followed by a 3d6 blast, etc.

The exact details of how it works are largely irrelevant because under NO interpretation is it a damage increase over a regular blast.

[Bucky]

The exact details of how it works are largely irrelevant because under NO interpretation is it a damage increase over a regular blast.

A broad reading of "bonuses and penalties don't apply" would imply that the extra 1d6es completely ignore DR and energy resistance, even if the first hit does no damage. So a flurry of electric blasts can do up to 2d6 or 4d6 against a target with Electric Resistance 100 and DR 100/-

[Rynjin]

A funny thought, but Resistances/DR don't actually count as penalties to damage. Your damage comes out just fine, the recipient just subtracts less from their HP.

If you were in some kind of plane where Fire spells for example roll a -2 damage per die due to being very Cold-aligned or something, you'd ignore that.

[Aotrs Commander]

I have to recommend the sphere system again.

It was mentioned once, but it seems that people just went past without noticing.
You can recreate the Warlock or make a Kineticist like character that actually functions without too much effort. It even has a class called the Elementalist.

I recently have been toying with characters that use the Nature Sphere in different capacities. Combine that with the Destruction Sphere and you have a character that functions like how the Kineticist is supposed to without much fuss.

There is also a Wiki site for it that has been OK'd by the creators.

http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/

So you can check things out without spending money.

I do recommend buying a book if you like their stuff though.

I noticed it, but I really don't want to add another subsystem that I woud have to a pass over. (ESPECIALLY if this pass, in addition to adding bloodrager, kineticist and arcanist, reworking mythic, tweaking the feat formatting and lists, FINALLY get around to changing all the odd-stat feat pre-reqs to evens (i.e. 13=>12), adding several more races, I do the threatened massive job of yanking in Path of War and thus having to rebalance the ENTIRITY of ToB). Before I actually start doing the campaign.

(And somehow trying to fit in quest-writing for Rolemaster for maybe October (summer session seems less likely... And I might AGAIN end up, as today, having to do another Emergancy Bakc-up Pathfinders quest - part four of the ad hoc Blackros Musuem is the Worst Museum Ever... adventure? Path?)

I might plumb it for ideas if I run short, but otherwise, it's just too much effort to put in. (As everything has to be given the once-over, since 3.Aotrs is slightly different to PF1. Not enough that anyone who was not a number-crunching addict like me couldn't gloss over in a game like a lot of the 3.5/PF1 differences, but I refer you to the first clause of that sentence...!)



Flurry of blasts is utter bollocks and I will absolutley not be using that anything like the way it was intended, assuming that the ability to make a full attack with blasts is not (as I did with warlock) inherently rolled into the default class features. Nevermind being crap, it is TERRIBLY worded, as shown by the confusion.



Tomorrow is slated for taking another crap at Aotrs!Mythic (since I am most of the way through that, and I want to try and get at least one sub-project done; also my mate is going in for a heart-op later this week, so I would like to have a mostly-completed thing to send him so he has potentially somewthign to read (if he feels up to it0 in the week or two if he can't make it down the club.

[vasilidor]

I just think it would be easier to use something that has already been built and tested rather than trying to fix something broken. I think it would be less work to toss the Kinny and read spheres.

But, otherwise I get you. That is a lot to juggle.

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay. So Monday I finished 3.Aotrs!Mythic and then started thinkign about this in anger.

First step was to import the already-existant rules for additional elements (Air/Earth/Water) as present in 3.Aotrs for my specific campaign world and make them, like, standard. This means I can standardise the physical elements (hereafter the material energies) to the other ones, which will make this much easier.

Despite requiring little actual rules writing, this did require me to go through all 300-pages of the 3.Aotrs spells documents... And 3.A powers... And Invocations... And master rules, feats and classes documents and do some reforming. Only some of which I could cheat and use find/replace with. So it took seven hours.

But that done (and having changed the format of invocations to have a proper level class so I can added the kineticist in), I can finally start.

First big issue, before I copy the warlock character block as the basis for the kineticist is what to CALL it. As noted, "kineticist" is already a psion subclass. Elementalist is a wizard archtype... "Bender" is a bit too on the nose. So I gave up on English ("elemental master" is ... eh...) I figured, since e have already some not-western class names (ninja, shugenja and wu jen and my own previous dip into a totally-not-inspired-by-Naruto adept/psionist sekkou) and becuase I have and am reading Chinese history, that I would go that end of the world. Also as a nod to Avatar (which I am also in the process of re-watching) and the martial arts within. (I considered "sifu" or "shifu," too.)

So after trying some translation, it occurred to me to look up what wu jen actually comes from, and turns out it basically doesn't it's kind on a nonsense thing that probbably ought to wu ren. (I am seriously considering changing that, but have a avoided it solely for the personal-meme-value of the abbreviation in my spells document beign WuJ, which is just nice to say.)

But during this latter exercise, someone suggested "Fangshi".


Fangshi (Chinese: 方士; pinyin: fāngshì; lit. 'method master') were Chinese technical specialists who flourished from the third century BCE to the fifth century CE. English translations of fangshi include alchemist, astrologer, diviner, exorcist, geomancer, doctor, magician, monk, mystic, necromancer, occultist, omenologist, physician, physiognomist, technician, technologist, thaumaturge, and wizard.

Yeah, I'mma take that actual real word from the China's first imperial period with a broad enough application doing so won't be any more off-meaning that what D&D itself does. That also sounds fracking cool.

So that's my first starting point, done...!

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay. After a fair bit of effort, I have gotten as far as something resembling a first pass at this.

Still a lot of work to do regard to individual invocations, but I have completed my first pass on the class chassis.

I have not even tried to put it into a forum post, but instead have put it into a google doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eFeYDa8tUCbuZ-3slPn-7wCFsCZEg6nF6JYIXpTOzpA/edit?usp=sharing); with the terrible formatting there, it's, like 23 pages (about twice or more what it is in my properly formatted documents), but this way meant I could copy/paste the text and retain most of the formatting without having to spend hours on fixing the formating and such.

There are headers, so feel free to skip the design notes and look over the actual classes. The former are there to explain my thinking.

Suggestions, obsevations or just throwing things at me because it's Clearly Too Munchkin or something are welcome. (I think they'd have to be made here, since I've never used google dics before, but there we go.) Again, I'll be crossposting this to the PF1 reddit too.

[Rynjin]

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to houserule Cold Blast to be a Cold descriptor effect instead of a Water one, to bring it in line with other abilities for Counterspell.

[Aotrs Commander]

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to houserule Cold Blast to be a Cold descriptor effect instead of a Water one, to bring it in line with other abilities for Counterspell.

I did go and change that.



I have been working on the fangshi invocations for... ten hours straight? I took a semi-day off (since the UK is having two bank holiday Mondays and my working week is Tues to Sat) to try and plough through it. And at the point I decided I probably ought to stop, I had got the composite blasts done, and have only gotten up to the end of "D" on the infusions. (And all the utility talents to go; plus feats...)

That said, the composites took a lot of time, since I went through (with a table) to fill them all out, so that all six of the (1st party) elements except Aether have exactly eight composites (of their primary or secondary damage type) - aether has only seven (matching its one less simple blast).

(I'm not planning to add any of the 3PP elements, though I may well plumb some of their wild talents invocations to round out the Paizo ones, especially as I am straight dropping some of the crap ones). We have qUITE enough to be going on with)

In that process, there was also a lot of back and forth and redoing all of them as I made format adjustments, and simulataneously populating the spreadsheet for the summary (and page references), so it was slow going. Progress is being made, but this is proving to be just as much effort as I expected it to be last time around.



My current modus operandii, using the Warlock as an eyeball-level, is to reduce the burn costs (and transmute into internal buffer pool point costs) of infusions by about 2, give or take the opportunity cost of "one blast shape verses blast full attack."



(I'm VERY definitely having second thoughts about integrating Path of War with ToB this path now; one I've FINALLY finished with the Fangshi, I've still got the Bloodrager and Arcanist to port (though that should be MUCH quicker) and some faffing around with the feats list and then I can MAYBE get back to actual quest-writing/campaign preparation...)

[StSword]

Might want to check out the Legendary Kineticist (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/legendary-kineticist), a rebuild to make it more impressive.

There's also Tipsy Tabby Publishing's Mastering Magic: Killer Kineticists - Pathfinder (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/305207/Mastering-Magic-Killer-Kineticists--Pathfinder), but I have never bought it so I cannot give a review of the changes they made.

[Aotrs Commander]

Might want to check out the Legendary Kineticist (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/legendary-kineticist), a rebuild to make it more impressive.

There's also Tipsy Tabby Publishing's Mastering Magic: Killer Kineticists - Pathfinder (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/305207/Mastering-Magic-Killer-Kineticists--Pathfinder), but I have never bought it so I cannot give a review of the changes they made.

I am doing so, albeit through the Going Nova (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VniMdd6X1noOA4KmBPzgflvyEWIHMl2tYawpjyFaZek/edit#heading=h.qpu7jvngcqrt) guide; in as much as I'm taking ideas, and when I've done all the core wild talents invocations, filling them out. (I'm keeping a track of at least what blasts get how many shape/essenses (in not in regard to what levels) so I can at least somewhat buff any that are a bit short afterwards.)



Three more hours today and I got up about as far as kinetic blade... Which is a good point to stop, because the next three need a closer looking at to see if they are redudant with the revised Hideous Blow and Eldtritch Glaive and it's midnight. Monday, I cna carry on, got likely another good ten-twelve hours, since there's no club on interrupt my D&D rules-writing to, y'know, actually play D&D...

Another couple of tweaks that I considered and thus slowed the job down a bit...

One, sticking with the invocations have DCs equal to effective level. BUT, adding a new metakinesis feature at level 5 which allows you to spend 1 point from your buffer to increase the effective level by 2 (to the maximum equivilent of whatever is your maximum invocation grade).



Two: all saving blast throws are being changed to Constitution. I see no earthly need or reason for (some of) the infusions to be Dexterity based. Other than "because bender gestures."

I'm open to an arguement that ALL the invocation saving throws should be Dexterity based instead of Constitution based, sure. However, I am NOT having them be some Con and some Dex, that's needless overcomplication and isn't in line with literally any other kind of caster or manifester. If fangshi/kineticists are going to be the Con-based caster, they should BE the Con-based caster.

I mean, I could see an argument to making Blasts be Dex-to-damage too... But frankly Dex is already good enough.

(An arguement that Dex to infusions requires [kinecists] to be more MAD is irrevant, since Wizards are right over there; plus Dex is sufficiently important anyway that realistically, no (PC) [kineticist] is going to have less than maxed out Con and Dex anyway.)

[Manyasone]

https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Kineticist_(Legendary)

I'm just going to drop this here, do with it what you will