Red Wizard - quick and dirty

[Boci]

So having just seen the D&D movie, some are my players are quite interested in the Red Wizards, especially when I told them they used to be a Prestige Class you could play. I'm wondering how to make them an archetype in 5e, and the simple solution I came up with was:

Theyian Studies: Any wizard with a archetype from the Player's Handbook can choose to have adopted the highly focus method of study made famous in They. Such wizards gain an extra spell slot of east level from 1st to 9th at the level they can first cast them, however the focused studies required to achieve this limits the scope of their magic. They choose two schools other than the one they specialise in as per their archetype, and may not learn new spells from those two schools.

Would this work, or is is too powerful? I'm pretty sure its not to weak, since extra spells is quite a big deal given how much the wizards by default, but losing access to 2 schools feels like a not insignificant price to pay. I didn't specify the spells had to be of the same school as their specialisation, since that's not a mechanic in 5e and so it would be awkward to implement.

[StoicLeaf]

Minor nitpick: It's "Thay"!
I think the pro is too powerful and the negative too weak; You can quite comfortably live without Conjuration or Divinination or the Illusion school.

Also, the wizard sub classes all have features at 2, 6 10 & 14.
If you really want to make the Red Wizard a mechanical feature (and not just a background, which would be a lot easier) then you're going to have to put in some more effort imo!

[Psyren]

Instead of getting extra spell slots across each spell level, a single extra spell slot of their highest spell level would still be plenty powerful and better align with 5e's design ethos. Simulacrum is so busted precisely because it lets you get a bunch more spell slots from levels that casters typically shouldn't; a Red Wizard using Simulacrum would crank that up to 11.

[Amnestic]

To tie it into their tattoos as a feat:-

Thayan Spell Tatoo.
Prerequisite: Wizard
At the end of a long rest you can scribe spells you have prepared onto your skin whose combined spell level is equal to no more than 1/2 your wizard level. When you cast a tattoo spell, they do not require verbal, somatic, or inexpensive material components, but the tattoos do glow with sufficient light as to be clear from beneath clothing. When you cast a spell that you scribed on your skin it is treated as being cast from a spell slot one level higher than the slot you expended. A spell tattoo is permanent, until you choose to replace it with another spell.

You gain proficiency with calligraphy or painter's supplies (your choice).

Variant: The scribed spell tattoos can only be of the spell school for your specialisation (eg. evocation).


Combines a partial subtle (kinda) spell with a 'free', albeit limited, upcasting option instead of additional spell slots.

[Unoriginal]

So having just seen the D&D movie, some are my players are quite interested in the Red Wizards, especially when I told them they used to be a Prestige Class you could play. I'm wondering how to make them an archetype in 5e, and the simple solution I came up with was:

Theyian Studies: Any wizard with a archetype from the Player's Handbook can choose to have adopted the highly focus method of study made famous in They. Such wizards gain an extra spell slot of east level from 1st to 9th at the level they can first cast them, however the focused studies required to achieve this limits the scope of their magic. They choose two schools other than the one they specialise in as per their archetype, and may not learn new spells from those two schools.

Would this work, or is is too powerful? I'm pretty sure its not to weak, since extra spells is quite a big deal given how much the wizards by default, but losing access to 2 schools feels like a not insignificant price to pay.

I mean, losing access to two schools can be a big price or completely unnoticeable, depending on the playstyle.

I'm sure a ton of recommended builds wouldn't have any issue sacrificing Illusion and Divination for 9 extra spell slots at lvl 17, for example.



I didn't specify the spells had to be of the same school as their specialisation, since that's not a mechanic in 5e and so it would be awkward to implement.

It is a mechanic, though. That's what the Wizard subclasses in the PHB are.


Worth noting that by the time of the 5e era, the Red Wizards of Thay have shifted focus and the magic specialty they are mostly known for is magic item crafting.

[Hurrashane]

To tie it into their tattoos as a feat:-


Combines a partial subtle (kinda) spell with a 'free', albeit limited, upcasting option instead of additional spell slots.

I feel like you could make the Tattoo a class feature, have it be like spell storing item but a like, 1/day subtle cast of a 1st level spell. Also able to use the tattoo as a spell focus.

Could possibly give them a class feature later that allows them to brand others with a tattoo, allowing the Thayan to activate the spell at their leisure. Like a slightly modified glyph of warding that you can put on a creature.

Also iirc the 3.x Thayan wizard had like, circle casting? Something could be done with that, allowing others to willingly (or Unwillingly later) lend the Thayan spell power. Uses a number of allies up to int mod's reaction let's a spell they cast be cast as if upcast by allies/level?

Only the first two paragraphs are in response to the quote, the last one is just a more general response to the thread

[Rafaelfras]

The two main characteristics associated eith the red wizards of Thay were:


Hyper focus on spell schools:
Thay was divided in 8 states each governed by a Zulkyr representing a school of magic. With Szas Tam being the Zulkyr of necromancy for example
Their chosen school had very high DCs but the current 8 schools sub classes are good enough for this concept.

Circle magic:
Their second and most prominent feature was circle magic. Several wizards could join a circle and gratly expand the power of a spell casted by the circle leader. It used to work by the participats giving spell slots for the leader then using to cast a spell and applying metamagics like empower and maximize to it or increasing the circle leader level (and thus the power of the spell)
This could be emulated by a feat.


Here is a link to the prestige class from 3.5
https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/prestigeCore/redWizard.html

[Boci]

Minor nitpick: It's "Thay"!
I think the pro is too powerful and the negative too weak; You can quite comfortably live without Conjuration or Divinination or the Illusion school.

Personal expirience I guess, I would describe the existence of a divination-less wizard in my games as "comfortable".


Also, the wizard sub classes all have features at 2, 6 10 & 14.

Yes, and? Red Wizards are a modfication to the Player Handbook archetypes, so they would also have features at these levels...


If you really want to make the Red Wizard a mechanical feature (and not just a background, which would be a lot easier) then you're going to have to put in some more effort imo!

Background are pretty underwhelming. I know some new ones got better in later books, but I didn't keep up with that. What background feature would you give a Red Wizard?


Instead of getting extra spell slots across each spell level, a single extra spell slot of their highest spell level would still be plenty powerful and better align with 5e's design ethos. Simulacrum is so busted precisely because it lets you get a bunch more spell slots from levels that casters typically shouldn't; a Red Wizard using Simulacrum would crank that up to 11.

So something like "When you cast a spell from the school you are specialised in, you may do so without expending a spell slot. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest"? This would also further limit the extra spell to being from one school only.


To tie it into their tattoos as a feat:-


Combines a partial subtle (kinda) spell with a 'free', albeit limited, upcasting option instead of additional spell slots.

No verbal or somatic components feels like it might be stepping on sorcerors toes a bit there, otherwise a neat feat. Is allowing it to cast a spell higher level than you normally good intentional? It will take all the allotted spell levels for the tattoo, so its probably not unbalanced.


I mean, losing access to two schools can be a big price or completely unnoticeable, depending on the playstyle.

I'm sure a ton of recommended builds wouldn't have any issue sacrificing Illusion and Divination for 9 extra spell slots at lvl 17, for example.

Maybe, maybe not, but I've literally never been in a game, DM or player, that reached level 17, so I'm less concerned about it.


It is a mechanic, though.

No, a spell slot being a specific spell is not a mechanic in 5e like it was in 3rd edition.


Worth noting that by the time of the 5e era, the Red Wizards of Thay have shifted focus and the magic specialty they are mostly known for is magic item crafting.

Eh, hyper focus is cooler, and I don't use crafting that much, so unlikely to make this change myself.


I feel like you could make the Tattoo a class feature, have it be like spell storing item but a like, 1/day subtle cast of a 1st level spell. Also able to use the tattoo as a spell focus.

Could possibly give them a class feature later that allows them to brand others with a tattoo, allowing the Thayan to activate the spell at their leisure. Like a slightly modified glyph of warding that you can put on a creature.

Also iirc the 3.x Thayan wizard had like, circle casting? Something could be done with that, allowing others to willingly (or Unwillingly later) lend the Thayan spell power. Uses a number of allies up to int mod's reaction let's a spell they cast be cast as if upcast by allies/level?

Only the first two paragraphs are in response to the quote, the last one is just a more general response to the thread


The two main characteristics associated eith the red wizards of Thay were:


Hyper focus on spell schools:
Thay was divided in 8 states each governed by a Zulkyr representing a school of magic. With Szas Tam being the Zulkyr of necromancy for example
Their chosen school had very high DCs but the current 8 schools sub classes are good enough for this concept.

Circle magic:
Their second and most prominent feature was circle magic. Several wizards could join a circle and gratly expand the power of a spell casted by the circle leader. It used to work by the participats giving spell slots for the leader then using to cast a spell and applying metamagics like empower and maximize to it or increasing the circle leader level (and thus the power of the spell)
This could be emulated by a feat.


Here is a link to the prestige class from 3.5
https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/prestigeCore/redWizard.html

Circle magic is not a bad idea, but too complex to be stapled on to an existing archetype like I'm trying to do. This would be making a fresh archetype for Red Wizard, which is also a valid approach, and may well be the better approach, but takes more effort. Not sure how you'd represent hyperfocus if its a standalone archetype, maybe then you follow the 5e shift to a crafting focus?

[Amnestic]

No verbal or somatic components feels like it might be stepping on sorcerors toes a bit there, otherwise a neat feat. Is allowing it to cast a spell higher level than you normally good intentional? It will take all the allotted spell levels for the tattoo, so its probably not unbalanced.

Subtle is generally discussed in the context of being sneaky with magic, but a flashy glowing tattoo tends to step over that, so in this case it's more about working around silence and manacles than being able to Suggestion someone without them knowing it.

And yeah, being able to upcast above your normal spell level is intentional, since it's limited to only whichever you scribed. Generally speaking an upcast will result in an extra damage of dice which is nice but not gamebreaking - with some spells it has more interesting features but ultimately if it's a feat it should do neat stuff!

[noob]

So having just seen the D&D movie, some are my players are quite interested in the Red Wizards, especially when I told them they used to be a Prestige Class you could play. I'm wondering how to make them an archetype in 5e, and the simple solution I came up with was:

Theyian Studies: Any wizard with a archetype from the Player's Handbook can choose to have adopted the highly focus method of study made famous in They. Such wizards gain an extra spell slot of east level from 1st to 9th at the level they can first cast them, however the focused studies required to achieve this limits the scope of their magic. They choose two schools other than the one they specialise in as per their archetype, and may not learn new spells from those two schools.

Would this work, or is is too powerful? I'm pretty sure its not to weak, since extra spells is quite a big deal given how much the wizards by default, but losing access to 2 schools feels like a not insignificant price to pay. I didn't specify the spells had to be of the same school as their specialization, since that's not a mechanic in 5e and so it would be awkward to implement.

In dnd 3.5 where a specialization school does not double the amount of high level spell slots(and thus is way less powerful in relative), specialization is still more restrictive than that as your specialization only prevents learning new spells from those schools while the dnd 3.5 specialization prevents casting any spells from the banned schools regardless of method.
Also in dnd 3.5 you do not have the right to ban the divination school.
Basically your specialization system is significantly stronger and less restrictive and people already complained back in 3.5 that specialization was so strong that you should almost always specialize or become a domain wizard (an even more op variant of the specialization which gives bonuses without penalties).
It is likely that most players at your table will eventually consider specialization a mandatory pick for a wizard.

[Psyren]

So something like "When you cast a spell from the school you are specialised in, you may do so without expending a spell slot. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest"? This would also further limit the extra spell to being from one school only.

Yes, that's perfect. The player is incentivized to use that feature on the highest level spell they can (since there's no downside to not doing so) but they don't have to. It's also weaker than actually giving a bonus spell slot, since that pseudo-slot can't be used to fuel anything else, nor can it be used to upcast. And even with all those downsides, it's still very strong for a wizard subclass feature.

[Rafaelfras]

Circle magic is not a bad idea, but too complex to be stapled on to an existing archetype like I'm trying to do. This would be making a fresh archetype for Red Wizard, which is also a valid approach, and may well be the better approach, but takes more effort. Not sure how you'd represent hyperfocus if its a standalone archetype, maybe then you follow the 5e shift to a crafting focus?

No, I think the wizard subclasses focused on the schools are very good for that aspect of school specialization. I would do something like those backgrounds that comes with a feat in it, you could include both a small bonus to your chosen school (+1 DC? 1st slot spent using your chosen school/ short rest is not spent? IDK, you decide what is too powerful after all) plus circle magic feat in this red wizard background, like the 3.5 one, when a wizard have this feat his allied spellcasters (no need feat) can cast spells to give him spell levels ( slot used =spell level he has) so if you have 2 allies and both cast a leve 2 spell the leader will have 4 spell levels to use. He then cast fireball as a 7th spell consuming that energy. You can include metamagics if you want, using the sorcery points/ spell level conversions, you could include empower spell (2 spell levels spell does 50% more damage) maximize/overchanel (3 spell levels spell does maximum damage). And make the feat circle magic available outside the background without the bonus to favorite school so people outside of Thay could learn the technique, that was true for 3rd ed as other PrC had circle magic, but the red wizard one was the strongest.
Its a very common practice for the red wizards to drain their apprentices so they can cast stronger magic, so a 7th level fireball is better than 2 level 2 spells plus a single level 3 spell, but if all spell casters have the same level you will get more damage with 3 fire balls. This was the type of game play and decision making that circle magic bring to the table and illustrate that red wizards are proud and selfish and will surround themselves with weaker spell casters that they can drain to become stronger instead of working with allies of equal strength

[Witty Username]

The big thing I recal from Thay is their tattoos have a bunch of meanings for an individual, including social status, gender, specialization and some other stuff.

It came up in a sparknotes I read of a Thay Dark Lord from the back in the day Ravenloft.

[Segev]

I suggest something more like a feat. (If using OneD&D's rules, maybe limit it to 4th level or higher.)

Red Wizard
Prerequisite: Must be a wizard
You have passed the tests of knowledge and loyalty required by this exclusive Order, and have been inducted as one of the Red Wizard of Thay. Choose a wizard spell; this becomes your Tattoo Spell. You learn this spell and are always considered to have it prepared; which spell it is can be discerned by a DC 20 Intelligence(Arcana) check who can study the tattoos you have imprinted on your body. This spell does not count against the number of wizard spells you may have prepared. If the first spell you take as your Tattoo Spell is already in your spellbook, you may add another wizard spell of your choice to your spellbook without spending additional time or money. In subsequent levels of Wizard, when you add a new spell to your spellbook as part of your free spells for leveling up, you may replace your current Tattoo Spell with the newly-added one.

You may cast this spell once at your highest spell level without expending a spell slot. You regain this ability after finishing a long rest or when you use Arcane Recovery. You may also double your proficiency bonus when casting this spell, once. You regain this ability as well after finishing a long rest.