Chaotic, High Wisdom

[GeoffWatson]

My new character is a Chaotic Neutral Cleric with a very high Wisdom.
I've been trying to think of a suitable personality for him, but all the Chaotic characters I can think of have low Wisdom (reckless, impulsive, foolish).

Any suggestions?

[kyoryu]

Chaotic doesn't have to mean "chaotic". It can instead mean preferring freedom and individual choice over a regimented and structured way of handling things.

So this character could easily be in favor of a more hands-off, ad-hoc approach to solving problems, choosing to give people more freedom so that they can adapt more easily to rapidly changing situations, rather than imposing a rigid plan that cannot flex when necessary.

[TaiLiu]

Maybe some kind of extreme freedom fighter—someone who lives a liberated life and wants to share that liberation with others (even if they don't want it).

[Lord Raziere]

I mean Chaotic doesn't necessary mean any specific personality.

high wis just means your perceptive and insightful and so on when it comes to other people. you just use that perceptiveness and insightfulness towards chaotic ends and think through what chaotic beings actually want and desire, as well as be able to understand what other people want and desire, understands other details to accomplish Chaotic ends. what "Chaotic" means is entirely up to interpretation, technically.

though an example of a possible personality is someone who believes there is no greater plan for the universe or anything like that....and is completely at peace with that. they just take whatever strange thing happens as it comes and doesn't mind how messy things are as long as they can help people with what they want, they don't tell people how to live their lives they just help them if they want the help, whatever direction helping them leads, sure they might at times tell people that if they experienced something similar before and know that it is a bad idea because they care about someone and don't want them to like get hurt, but they won't prevent them from making their own decisions, trusting in their friends own ability to be free and make decisions to not make stupid ones.

[Pauly]

Chaotic in D&D refers more to not following a code of laws set by an organization, whether they are political laws or institutional laws,

For example, arguably Dirty Harry is Chaotic because he’s willing to break any and all rules of policing in order to achieve justice. What does and does not cross Harry’s personal code - torturing suspects is OK, but killing evil doers who have escaped normal justice isn’t - doesn’t seem to map to any consistent external philosophy or set of rules.

To use a movie trope, the rogue cop set achieving their goal despite the restrictions of the department’s rules is a classic chaotic archetype.

So maybe your cleric wants to do [X] and feels the rules of the church are stopping them from achieving their personal goal.

[NichG]

They're so wise that they notice every bit of organizational foolishness baked into existing hierarchies and traditions, and know correctly the better way things should be done. While they can follow societal rules when it serves their goals (they are wise after all), they fundamentally are incapable of actually feeling respect for those rules when they make no sense.

[Kraynic]

What deity does your character follow? Assuming this is a chaotic leaning deity, what aspect of the deity expresses that chaos? Maybe lean into that being what attracted your character to that deity in the first place. A little emulation could go a long way.

[Drakevarg]

I've been trying to think of a suitable personality for him, but all the Chaotic characters I can think of have low Wisdom (reckless, impulsive, foolish).

Any suggestions?

Go through your mental list of chaotic characters again, but look for "Cunning" instead of "Wise." Wisdom also covers perceptiveness (in PF terms, Perception and Sense Motive are both WIS skills). A character who can notice minute details and quickly turn them to their advantage has high wisdom, in the form of cunning. Charisma might get you through the Bluff check, but Wisdom spots your mark. Intelligence might help you put the clues together and solve the mystery, but it was Wisdom that noticed the mud on the culprit's shoes.

[Shinizak]

Maybe a walking domino effect? For example, this character always seems to know where to situate themselves to cause the most chaos and disarray.

[Pauly]

They're so wise that they notice every bit of organizational foolishness baked into existing hierarchies and traditions, and know correctly the better way things should be done. While they can follow societal rules when it serves their goals (they are wise after all), they fundamentally are incapable of actually feeling respect for those rules when they make no sense.

I think we have a winner.,

[Vahnavoi]

You need to blow up your idea of Chaotic and go back to 1st Edtion AD&D basics.

To wit: the conflict between law and chaos is that of large organized groups versus the individual, AKA collectivism versus individualism.

Chaotic Neutral, is in particular, combines individualist bent with disbelief in good or evil; the world is fundamentally unpredictable, and all attempts to give meaning to it beyond the personal are fake. The greatest "good" is for everyone person to be authentically and maximally free.

This has real parallel in words of various existentialist philosophers, for example, Jean-Paul Sartre.

So if you want to play a Chaotic Neutral Cleric, in context a religious warrior-philosopher, take a look at existentialist philosophers.

[Mastikator]

Just be independent and not bogged down by rules, laws and peer pressure. But not bone headed, be flexible and open minded, but not so open minded that your brain falls out :smallsmile:

[MoiMagnus]

I'd like to point out that RPing a Chaotic High Wisdom pays differently depending on how the GM handle the universe.

If the GM builds a universe where most authority figures are wise and flexible, where the general population is wise enough to never enact stupid rules, while on the other hand as soon as there are no rules and regulations the general population becomes unwise enough to abuse it in every possible way, then any wise person would have an hard time being Chaotic.

On the other hand:
+ Whenever an authority figure is unwise, a chaotic person migh search for an alternative.
+ Whemever an authority figure is inflexible, a chaotic person might show tolerance and/or rebellion.
+ Whenerver the general population enact stupid rules, a chaotic person might oppose them
+ Whenever the general population is wise enough, a chaotic person might argue in favour of deregulation, letting peoples "think for themself", etc.

[Let'sGetKraken]

He's not Chaotic Neutral, but Zaheer from the Legend of Korra is my go-to when I think about a Chaotic Evil character with high wisdom. He's all about tearing systems of oppression down, regardless of the consequences of his actions, but he is generally calm, in tune with his emotions, and overall quite spiritual.

Similarly, your Chaotic Neutral character could blatantly disregard and disrespect laws and authority, but not in an "oh I'm so random" manner.

[Slipjig]

For a cleric, how a high-WIS manifests will be heavily dependent on your deity. A chaotic character might be all about tearing down institutions because he thinks institutions are inherently bad, he might be a radical egalitarian who actively seeks to tear down any examples of personal excellence. He could also be someone who finds beauty in disorganization and asymmetry, and thinks that a beautiful statue would be even MORE interesting if it's been tipped over and partially smashed. He could also just be a hedonist who correctly understands that his habits are extremely self-destructive in the long-term, but has decided to enjoy the ride as long as it lasts (which could actually be a pretty wise course for an adventurer, since a high % of them die young).

A high WIS will allow you to see how things are connected and understand people's motivations, but it doesn't dictate how you act on that information.

[LibraryOgre]

Generally, higher Wisdom and Intelligence mean that you've thought more about your alignment than other people... someone with an 11 or lower might well just follow their alignment, but someone with a 12 or higher has probably introspected about this a bit, even if it's just to the extent of "This is why my approach is superior".

Someone with a Chaotic alignment and high Wisdom is usually disciplined enough that they don't have to do things "for the lulz", but an ideological commitment to freedom and opposition to hierarchy is a good chance. "People should choose for themselves; some will make poor choices, but those are THEIR choices, not a poor choice forced on them by someone else. Some will choose evil, but some will choose good, and some will choose not to choose either. The crucial part is their agency as individuals, instead of slaves to a system that does not suit any except those in power."

[Rynjin]

They're so wise that they notice every bit of organizational foolishness baked into existing hierarchies and traditions, and know correctly the better way things should be done. While they can follow societal rules when it serves their goals (they are wise after all), they fundamentally are incapable of actually feeling respect for those rules when they make no sense.

This is exactly how the Cleric of Olidammara (https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Olidammara)is played in our Age of Worms game. She constantly violates social norms out of basically a sense that people need to be taken down a peg and not get so inflated by their own egos and bound up by tradition that they feel comfortable unpersoning people (including themselves).

[LibraryOgre]

This is exactly how the Cleric of Olidammara (https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Olidammara)is played in our Age of Worms game. She constantly violates social norms out of basically a sense that people need to be taken down a peg and not get so inflated by their own egos and bound up by tradition that they feel comfortable unpersoning people (including themselves).

The ideological equivalent is getting to a college class early and sitting in someone else's customary seat. They don't have a real claim to it, save social norm that you get to sit where you usually sit.

[Jay R]

High wisdom and Chaotic are displayed by Professor Bernardo de la Paz in Robert Heinlein's novel The Moon is a Harsh Mistress:


"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

[icefractal]

Chaotic doesn't need to mean reckless. The most recent CN character I played was pretty deliberate and careful in his decisions, liked to make plans, and was generally quite organized.

The foundation of his chaotic outlook was simply:
"You should always make the best choice in the present, based on the full information available at the moment. Deferring the choice to a less-informed past version of yourself, or to some distant lawmakers, is hiding your head in the sand to avoid responsibility."

So he wouldn't make (true) promises or oaths about important matters, because they'd either be redundant or get broken. He'd make false promises sometimes, because he considered lying to anyone who wasn't his ally a trivial matter. Laws were evaluated in the same way - is there a good reason to follow them right now in the present? Then fine, he'll follow. If not, then they have no weight in his decision.

[Fable Wright]

Chaotic Neutral: "Look out for number 1, with no inherent respect for the rules."

The best way to think of this is enlightened self-interest. "I know the rules of society. If I do this action, I will receive a fine if I'm caught. Enforcement is low, and the fine multiplied by the odds of getting caught is an acceptable cost I'm willing to pay for breaking it."

Rules are not sacred; they create transactions. Recognizing that they are transactions, you can look out for you and your own, rather than dogmatically following policy because it's the "right thing to do" or taking stupid risks. The powerful created the rules to keep themselves in power at the cost of suppressing "acceptable target" groups. Whether they meant well or ill doesn't matter; systemic oppression by laws is an inherent evil. Tearing those rules apart systemically to redistribute power is morally right, for the purposes of making the universe more fair. Falling into the traps set by those rules doesn't let you tear them down, it turns you into yet another unsung martyr of them.

Understand them. Break them strategically. Tear down the system where you can. Teach others the truth of rules and how they are made to systemically disempower them, not just the people lower than them on the totem pole, and what they can do about it. And make the universe a more fair place in the process.

[Slipjig]

Chaotic Neutral: "Look out for number 1, with no inherent respect for the rules."

See, the problem with that definition is that's a perfect encapsulation of Chaotic Evil.

Chaotic Neutral is a tricky alignment, the description in 2e PH said something along the lines of, "this alignment is primarily composed of madmen". If you are trying to maximize freedom for everyone because you think freedom is inherently beneficial, you are Chaotix Good. If you are looking out only for yourself and don't care about the rules, that's generally Chaotic Evil.

It might be helpful to reverse this process: start by defining what your character is like, and then figure out what alignment fits. Assuming your deity is CN, what characteristics attracted you to this deity that made you want to dedicate your life to worshipping them? It might be that TN, CG, or CE better capture your character.

[LibraryOgre]

Chaotic Neutral is a tricky alignment, the description in 2e PH said something along the lines of, "this alignment is primarily composed of madmen". If you are trying to maximize freedom for everyone because you think freedom is inherently beneficial, you are Chaotix Good. If you are looking out only for yourself and don't care about the rules, that's generally Chaotic Evil.


My usual line is "How much sacrifice of others is necessary or desirable"? A CN person is likely to have a line where harming another becomes unacceptable, but will not necessarily help someone, either. A Chaotic Evil person will kick you in the face to steal your wallet... a CN person probably won't do that, but they also don't necessarily see a big problem with keeping the wallet you left in the bathroom (or taking the cash and leaving the wallet).

[Vahnavoi]

It's more useful to flip that around: Chaotic Neutral has no inherent desire to hurt others and needs to be pushed over some bar to do so; for Chaotic Evil, that bar is close or at the floor, making it seem they hurt others just because.

[NichG]

It's not canon, but if I have to use alignment I go with:

Good vs Evil - are your goals primarily about the wants and needs of others, or are they primarily about your own wants and needs? (With exclusively prioritize even others-wants over my own needs = Good endpoint, prioritizing a mix of others-needs + my needs with occasional wants = lesser Good through lesser Evil spectrum including Neutral, exclusively prioritizing even my wants over the needs of others = Evil endpoint)

Lawful vs Chaotic - are the targets of my goals framed in terms of the structure of society, or the conditions of individuals? E.g. if Good, how much do I see my desired outcomes in terms of 'there are the right social norms/sets of laws/hierarchy of responsibility such that life should be good for everyone' versus e.g. 'is there still someone suffering? Someone unfulfilled? Then there is still work to do, one person at a time'. If I'm a LN thief my ambition might be to create and head the most powerful thieves' guild, to 'make people (as a whole) respect the power of the underworld', etc; if I'm a CN thief I might want to be the best thief, the most powerful thief, the richest thief, but its in terms of what that means individually ('I can order my henchmen to steal something from me!') versus collectively ('our organization has lots of henchmen that can steal all sorts of things!').

[Mechalich]

The classic representation of a chaotic neutral person with high wisdom is an isolated hermit, wandering monk, or starving artist. This is often someone who is fully aware that society is beneficial and even necessary for the majority but who, for whatever reason, just can't handle it. The idea of performing the same tasks over and over every day, or committing to the study of some specific set of texts, or even a regular schedule of religious ritual is too much, their very body and soul rebel against the idea of such regimentation. Also, because they are neutral, not good, they tend not to be very nice, often finding other people too much to handle and the general rules of social interaction like politeness burdensome and pointless. These are the kinds of characters that spout sage wisdom that, while often very difficult to counter, is liable to get them smacked around by the local authorities or even executed (there is a strong tendency in literature of such characters being used as mirrors primarily to reveal the opinions of a ruler, only to get executed when they cross the line).

[Segev]

The seemingly foolish or mad man who always manages to have his "random" behaviors work out is high Wis (or Int) and Chaotic, too. If you want the impulsive-seeming person, lean into acting with unspoken plans and setting things up without explanation until the dominos start falling.

[Bohandas]

I'd say sort of a trickster as the personality

EDIT:
Or an absurdist, or hedonist, or cynic philospher

[Angelalex242]

...See: Tom Hiddleston (Loki).

[Segev]

...See: Tom Hiddleston (Loki).

Loki is often very LOW wisdom. He makes very foolish choices. He is high Charisma, though, because even when people don't like him, he can still manipulate them into doing what he wants.

[SpoonR]

Take Gandalf, and make his motivation less “must save world” and more “my life will suck if Sauron wins”. Gets a diverse group of individuals together to save the world, prefers advice and being in the background to leading armies, doesn’t always work well with the kings and regents he meets, humble. Very much does his own thing with no big organization around him.

[Telonius]

My most recent character was like this; a Chaotic Neutral Cleric of Olidammara. I played her as basically a bartender confidante. Very perceptive, knows what makes people tick. Completely willing to involve herself in schemes that have a decent chance of working, but absolutely okay with saying "no" to a dumb plan that's not likely to work. Operated a tavern that had special "singles nights" involving Pipes of Frenzied Revelry. Recruited most of the staff of the tavern from miscreants the party had defeated (but not killed). Basically, she loved subverting the (Lawful Good) town's expectations and was savvy enough to get away with it; perceptive enough to know how far she could push things without getting the bar shut down.

[Bohandas]

They're so wise that they notice every bit of organizational foolishness baked into existing hierarchies and traditions, and know correctly the better way things should be done. While they can follow societal rules when it serves their goals (they are wise after all), they fundamentally are incapable of actually feeling respect for those rules when they make no sense.

This. This is perfect. This is the highest wisdom.

[MetroAlien]

example characters from fictional media:

Trafalgar Law
from One Piece.
arguably high WIS
wouldn't go out of his way to hurt or help people.


Shintaro Kazama
from the Yakuza games
mentor character, so high WIS.
"Yakuza with a heart of gold", i.e. CN


Riddick,
portrayed by Vin Diesel
insightful & perceptive = high WIS
ruthless, but not needlessly cruel = CN

[Rynjin]

Shintaro Kazama
from the Yakuza games
mentor character, so high WIS.
"Yakuza with a heart of gold", i.e. CN

Designating a character whose defining character traits are loyalty, duty, and responsibility, and who is driven entirely by his personal code of honor and need for redemption as CN is certainly...novel.

[Mechalich]

Riddick,
portrayed by Vin Diesel
insightful & perceptive = high WIS
ruthless, but not needlessly cruel = CN

This is a pretty good example, and its notable how Riddick does not fit in with society. He spends a very large portion of the movies he's in on the run, and when he does acquire a position of importance, loses it almost immediately because it both doesn't interest him and he doesn't know how to manage his subordinates. He even, to a very real extent, knows betrayal is coming, but it's simply not in his nature to take the steps to stop it. It's also notable that Riddick's universe is full of characters like him, but because they lack his level of personal bad***ery almost all of them are in prison or dead.

Chaotic neutral is, in many ways, the hardest alignment to survive as. Chaotic good individuals have friends, who will often go out of their way to say their butts when they commit some massive faux pas. Chaotic evil individuals are protected (at least for a time) by paranoia and intimidation. Chaotic neutral characters have none of this, and the alignment does more damage to itself than almost any other. D&D gets around this with the Slaadi by just having them spawn spontaneously, but that obviously doesn't work for humans.

[MetroAlien]

Designating a character whose defining character traits are loyalty, duty, and responsibility, and who is driven entirely by his personal code of honor and need for redemption as CN is certainly...novel.


Yakuza go 'screw da law' and 'f the poh-leece' so I wrote it off as anti-lawful.
Seeing that Asian stereotypes as a whole (and Japanese especially so) already resemble 'lawful' alignment, I feel that it should be seen through a prism of sorts...



This is a pretty good example, and its notable how Riddick does not fit in with society.


That's a very good point I didn't even think about.
My idea was to point out that "high WIS" doesn't necessarily mean the sage stereotype.

[Bohandas]

Organized crime is generally Lawful Evil

[Rynjin]

Yakuza go 'screw da law' and 'f the poh-leece' so I wrote it off as anti-lawful.
Seeing that Asian stereotypes as a whole (and Japanese especially so) already resemble 'lawful' alignment, I feel that it should be seen through a prism of sorts...

Anti-law =/= anti-Lawful. The quickest example to give is that many Paladins could be considered anti-law, if the laws are considered unjust. Are Paladins Chaotic? No.

The Yakuza, more than any other organized crime syndicate in human history was built on a rigid set of laws, and in many cases WERE the law for many settlements not long after the Meiji era began, acting as basically a suped up community watch and "get **** done" committee. They brought order to lawless regions and helped devastated communities get back on their feet...coincidentally (of course) allowing them to really get their claws in these communities and form cores of people who are very loyal to the idea of the Yakuza as the people who could help them when the government was too aloof or incompetent to do so.

This honor code and ruleset is actually the core of every conflict in the series: the protagonist, Kazuma Kiryu, an "old school Yakuza" (already considered a throwback to an earlier era in the late 80s, when he got started) who believes in honor, serving the community, and all that jazz clashes with more "Chaotic", self-serving, and profit-driven Yakuza. Shenanigans ensue.

Kazama, being his mentor and surrogate father, is the one who instilled these values in Kiryu. The man lives and dies by those values; working as a hitman for the Yakuza, but abiding by his personal code to never kill "civilians" if he can help it, and particularly not children...to the point he takes it upon himself to found an orphanage to care for all the children whose parents he murdered.

That is...like the actual, textbook definition of Lawful Evil. The Code above all. Honor above all.

[Zanos]

Ability scores shouldn't really affect your ability to be any particular alignment. A high wisdom character who is chaotic could still be reckless or disrespect legitimate authority, because all his high wisdom means is that he has a wealth of real world experience and greater philosophical justification for behaving in that manner. People who disrespect authority aren't necessarily fools, and there are plenty of characters in fiction and people in the real world who are both described as wise and in constant conflict with orderly society.


This. This is perfect. This is the highest wisdom.
"Whatever works" is going to be neutral. Just as a Lawful character might occasionally default to taking an ordered approach, a Chaotic character is going to occasionally default to a chaotic approach, even when something more measured might be more successful. In fact, it's literally in the alignment definitions that Neutral characters follow rules when they want, and break them when they want. The idea that "lawful slavishly follows the rules even when its stupid" and "chaotic doesn't do that" isn't supported by any version of the alignment system. Alignment on L v C is about your biases.


That is...like the actual, textbook definition of Lawful Evil. The Code above all. Honor above all.
I agree, organized crime can definitely be Lawful. I don't know much if anything about the history of the Yakuza, but I do know that in other "organized" crime syndicates, the laws and oaths were really just tiny barriers for the foot soldiers to not behave in ways the upper crust disliked, and were frequently broken when they became inconvenient for folks at the top. So how "Lawful" your organized crime is will depend on whether or not folks follow those Laws even when they become an inconvenience. And of course, both Lawful and Chaotic characters can exist in an organization that's setup as Lawful.

[Rynjin]

I agree, organized crime can definitely be Lawful. I don't know much if anything about the history of the Yakuza, but I do know that in other "organized" crime syndicates, the laws and oaths were really just tiny barriers for the foot soldiers to not behave in ways the upper crust disliked, and were frequently broken when they became inconvenient for folks at the top. So how "Lawful" your organized crime is will depend on whether or not folks follow those Laws even when they become an inconvenience. And of course, both Lawful and Chaotic characters can exist in an organization that's setup as Lawful.

Yeah. This, as mentioned, is the core conflict of the series. The "ideal of the Yakuza" clashing with "the reality of the Yakuza". The majority of characters absolutely fall under what you're talking about here.