PC damage at high levels is too low?

[Marcloure]

Hello. I'm running a game with my PCs at the 14th level, the group consists of a Sorcerer, Warlock, Druid, and Barbarian, no multiclass, and I would like some advice.

The barbarian, who is the PC that can hit the highest average DPR, wields two weapons, so his damage per attack is <1d8+4[str]+3[rage]+1[magic weapon]>; he deals an average of 12 damage per attack, or 36 hitting all 3 attacks. I did the math for GWM to see if it's much better, but it is actually like 3 extra DPR considering the -5 penalty to hit. If he hits 85% of his attacks, which I think is quite generous, his DPR drops to something like 29. The spellcasters, expect the warlock, are even worse most of the time, some turns dealing about 10 damage, and even their best spells (fireball, firestorm, synaptic static) deal "only" 27–36 damage. Of course, they can desintegrate and cast cone of cold to deal a bit more damage, but that is only once or twice per day, you can't do that on every fight, specially if it's the first fight of the dungeon.

So, I'm running into the issue that in a standard encounter with 4 enemies ranging from CR 5–13, monsters have between 80 to 180 HP. That means that to kill even a single Vrock with 104 HP, it takes far too long. If everyone hits their attacks and the Vrock fails every saving throw against a 8d6 damage spell, it's still a whole round to take it down, but realistically, it will take 1.5 round or more per vrock. A standard battle against 4 Vrocks might take 6 rounds, and it's even worse if the players don't want to burn through their spell slots that fast and use some cantrips or spells like call lightning. In the fight I was running, which was the first fight of a dungeon, it took the group 3 rounds to kill two flameskulls, while there is still a fire giant dreadnaught with 180 HP and a vrock full HP around...

My question is, how can I help make this go faster? It feels like my players need more damage, quite a lot more, but not exactly because they can't kill the enemies, but because they can't do it fast enough. Even at the 14th level a fight against some CR 5 to 8 creatures takes far too long! Is this the normal high level experience?

[Dork_Forge]

Not my experience personally, one of my groups is a 3 PC team (with up to 2 sidekicks) that includes a Barbarian 9/Rogue 7 that does TWF.

To be honest it just sounds like none of your players are really damage dealers? You didn't factor in a subclass into the Barbarian's damage, so I assume it isn't a damage-relevant subclass. It also looks like they've been taking feats since they're 14th level but only have a +4 Strength? What feats?

What's the magic item situation like? Weapons that do 1d4 damage add up fast, but tbh a +2 wouldn't be out of line either at this tier.

[Marcloure]

Not my experience personally, one of my groups is a 3 PC team (with up to 2 sidekicks) that includes a Barbarian 9/Rogue 7 that does TWF.

Of course you can deal absurd amount of damage multiclassing, specially a combination like that one.


To be honest it just sounds like none of your players are really damage dealers? You didn't factor in a subclass into the Barbarian's damage, so I assume it isn't a damage-relevant subclass. It also looks like they've been taking feats since they're 14th level but only have a +4 Strength? What feats?

It's a Wild Magic barbarian. It deals like 1d6 extra damage per turn depending on the option, but that is behind a save DC 15 or so. Most of the time he picks the option to teleport or gain extra AC.

As for feats, he has Resilient Wisdom, Dual Wielder, and Crusher. I don't know if there is a feat that can increase his DPR other than increasing his Strength...


What's the magic item situation like? Weapons that do 1d4 damage add up fast, but tbh a +2 wouldn't be out of line either at this tier.

The barbarian has two +1 Warhammers. One of the warhammers can be thrown and it flies back to him, which helps him immensely against flying creatures. The other +1 warhammer is a legendary item that does a bunch of stuff, but the damage part of it is +2d6 against spellcasters (including innate magic), and some creature types. I didn't include it above because it's situational, so not always it works.

The rest of the group has a variety of magic items, but I don't think any of them increase their damage by a lot. The druid has a wand that can cast some extra spells, and the warlock has a rod that deals 1d8+Cha damage to another creature when a creature dies. It's not something that happens every turn, except if there is a bunch of CR 1 minions.

I think the spellcaster's damage is lacking too much. Like, to deal 60 damage they need several rounds full blasting, and the really powerful spells like fear, suggestion, and synaptic static don't deal damage, or at least not a lot it. So while they eventually win the battles, it just takes too long.

[Marcloure]

What really bugs me out is that damage barely increases from level 5 up. The warlock gains a third beam, which is awesome, but the other classes barely deal more damage than they did back at the 5th level.

[Witty Username]

My experience with high level play involved a Paladin with +3 weapons that crit half the time, a shepard druid that was pretty into conjure animals a hexblade with a rod of lordly might pact weapon, and a monk with a +9 strength bonus.

So not indicative of the norm. But we did damage.

[Skrum]

The sorcerer can be picking up something like Sickening Radiance, Wall of Fire, or even Spirit Guardians (if they're a divine soul) that deals damage each round. They should also be generally not fireballing unless they're gonna hit at least 3 enemies. Fireball can easily deal 100+ damage if used in the right situation. Against single targets, hasting allies is a very strong option that boosts party damage. The druid could be using spike growth and heat metal for similar reasons. The barb can drag people through the spiked growth for *a lot* of damage. The warlock could be pushing people through the growth as well, if they have the repelling blast. The warlock can also get good mileage out of the summon spells, as they auto-upcast and have long durations. If they can keep the minion alive, it will do quite a bit of damage.

On your side, give out more magic items. Extra damage dice on a weapon is the most straight-forward option, but even things like +1 casting focus can increase effective damage (and general potency) by making spells more likely to work.

It kinda sounds like your game is pretty low optimization. Which is fine!! The important part is whether everyone is having fun or not. If you and your players want combat to speed up a bit, you can try just reducing the HP of monsters too. This actually might be the best solution - the fights look and feel identical, but you won't get stuck wailing on 1-2 tough enemies for rounds on end, which I'll admit can get dull.

[Marcloure]

My experience with high level play involved a Paladin with +3 weapons that crit half the time, a shepard druid that was pretty into conjure animals a hexblade with a rod of lordly might pact weapon, and a monk with a +9 strength bonus.

So not indicative of the norm. But we did damage.

Hm, so you stuffed them with magic items... that can work, but I wonder how to increase the spellcaster's damage with magic items.

[Marcloure]

The sorcerer can be picking up something like Sickening Radiance, Wall of Fire, or even Spirit Guardians (if they're a divine soul) that deals damage each round. They should also be generally not fireballing unless they're gonna hit at least 3 enemies. Fireball can easily deal 100+ damage if used in the right situation. Against single targets, hasting allies is a very strong option that boosts party damage. The druid could be using spike growth and heat metal for similar reasons. The barb can drag people through the spiked growth for *a lot* of damage. The warlock could be pushing people through the growth as well, if they have the repelling blast. The warlock can also get good mileage out of the summon spells, as they auto-upcast and have long durations. If they can keep the minion alive, it will do quite a bit of damage

The Sorcerer usually summons an aberrant spirit with a high level slot to help with damage (weird that this spell can deal more damage than the barb lol), and then focus on synaptic static or some other controlling spells. Kinda the same for the druid. The thing is that control spells help them a lot, but they don't deal much damage, stuff like wall of stone, fear, sometimes even sleet storm can prevent the enemies from attacking, which can win the battle, but not too fast.

Heat Metal is one of the druid's favorite spells, even using it at higher slots to get that assured damage.

[Skrum]

Hm, so you stuffed them with magic items... that can work, but I wonder how to increase the spellcaster's damage with magic items.

Spellcasters do not need to help to do more damage. They have AoE out the wazoo which effortlessly does incredible amounts of damage against packs of enemies. When there's only a few powerful enemies, they switch to spells like Banishment, Polymorph, Haste, Slow, Counterspell, and Heat Metal to massively tip the balance of the encounter in favor of the players.

I'm currently playing a Wild Magic barb, and yeah, the focus isn't on damage. But he's got a crazy grapple check, high movement speed, and Bolstering Magic to be a great team player. No one lacks for advantage on their attack when my guy is in the party.

Curious, do you have a house rule that lets the player pick what Wild Magic ability they get to use? 'Cause RAW it's random.

[Skrum]

I'll admit though I've wondered about this before...not a lot of abilities that are going to notable increase damage after tier 2, especially for martial characters.

The game I play in is mostly in the 5-8 range, with some games as high as level 10. Depending on who's playing, the group is quite optimized with many powerful custom items. Some of our characters can deal rather absurd amounts of damage, like 100+ in a single turn (for the martials) and even more than that when the casters drop an AoE on a large pack. But again, I don't think that's going to scale up and up. If we were to go to level 15 and the monster hit points have inflated to 300+, I could see combats starting to drag.

[CTurbo]

TWF is just not that great in 5e although Barbarians are decent at it since they can add their rage damage to the off-hand attack.

GWM with a Greataxe would deal a LOT more damage. It's hard to calculate exactly how much because there is a % of time the full bonus action attack will trigger. Also Brutal Critical will trigger in there as well. When you did your quick math comparing GWM did you consider Reckless Attack? Barb's crit all the time rolling with Advantage all the time. Advantage does a great job of counter balancing the -5 to hit.

Barbarians in 5e in particular do NOT scale very well in damage until level 20. Brutal Critical is not nothing, but is pretty poor. The Wild Magic subclass is particularly poor with scaling damage. The Wild Surge table starts out ok, but by level 14 is laughably bad. I'm actually playing a Wild Magic Barb currently at level 5 and the DM said my Wild Surge damage can scale along with Cantrips. So far has helped stay competitive. I always thought Rage damage should equal proficiency bonus too.

My advice is for the player to take the Fighting Initiate feat to get the Two Weapon Fighting Style which would add 4, 5, or 7 damage per round. Also maxed Str to get to 20, and hopefully 24 if yall make it that high.

Level 14 should probably have at least one +2 Magic Weapon by now.

[Marcloure]

Spellcasters do not need to help to do more damage. They have AoE out the wazoo which effortlessly does incredible amounts of damage against packs of enemies. When there's only a few powerful enemies, they switch to spells like Banishment, Polymorph, Haste, Slow, Counterspell, and Heat Metal to massively tip the balance of the encounter in favor of the players.

Yeah, I agree they don't need more power, but none of those spells you listed make combat end much faster. Like, they can win the battles, but with only the barb and warlock dealing high DPR, it takes too long. Basically, of they need to kill a single enemy with 150 HP, they can do it no problem, but it takes them 3 or 4 rounds.


Curious, do you have a house rule that lets the player pick what Wild Magic ability they get to use? 'Cause RAW it's random.

No, there is an ability at a certain level that allows him to roll twice and pick the die. Also, he can reroll when he takes damage, so he eventually lands where he wants.

[Marcloure]

TWF is just not that great in 5e although Barbarians are decent at it since they can add their rage damage to the off-hand attack.

GWM with a Greataxe would deal a LOT more damage. It's hard to calculate exactly how much because there is a % of time the full bonus action attack will trigger. Also Brutal Critical will trigger in there as well. When you did your quick math comparing GWM did you consider Reckless Attack? Barb's crit all the time rolling with Advantage all the time. Advantage does a great job of counter balancing the -5 to hit.

Barbarians in 5e in particular do NOT scale very well in damage until level 20. Brutal Critical is not nothing, but is pretty poor. The Wild Magic subclass is particularly poor with scaling damage. The Wild Surge table starts out ok, but by level 14 is laughably bad. I'm actually playing a Wild Magic Barb currently at level 5 and the DM said my Wild Surge damage can scale along with Cantrips. So far has helped stay competitive. I always thought Rage damage should equal proficiency bonus too.

My advice is for the player to take the Fighting Initiate feat to get the Two Weapon Fighting Style which would add 4, 5, or 7 damage per round. Also maxed Str to get to 20, and hopefully 24 if yall make it that high.

Level 14 should probably have at least one +2 Magic Weapon by now.

I used https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/tools/dpr-calculator/ to calculate the DPR. Note: I gave the TWF style for free to the barb, because I know the class is a bit on the weak side. Also, I removed the bonus action from TWF, otherwise the barb suffers quite a lot, specially the wild magic one. If you look at my calculations on the original post, I included the STR on all 3 attacks. It's still not even 40 damage hitting all 3 attacks, and he is the one that has the highest DPR.

As for magic items, I am not a huge fan of +1 and +2 in general. My players have some magic items that deal extra damage under certain circumstances or against some types of enemies, but I guess 5e does depend of magic items at higher level after all.

[Skrum]

Yeah, I agree they don't need more power, but none of those spells you listed make combat end much faster. Like, they can win the battles, but with only the barb and warlock dealing high DPR, it takes too long. Basically, of they need to kill a single enemy with 150 HP, they can do it no problem, but it takes them 3 or 4 rounds.


Maybe use "garbage time" more? If the players have an encounter in hand and all that's left is to roll some attacks 5-6 times before the monster is actually at zero, just fast forward. "Ok you guys have this pretty well locked, we're gonna skip the clean-up." It certainly works to the player's favor as it totally removes the chance a flailing monster improbably rolls a crit, but a lot of combats do end up at a point where the tension ends before the enemies run out of hit points. It's a good quality of life option to keep the game moving.

[Hael]

Big damage in 5e at high levels is usually the combination of party members abusing a spell or spell effect.

For instance one party member casts wall of fire, and the others use forced movement to push/pull enemies into and out of the effect.

So i would say the team is probably not coordinating very well.

[Marcloure]

Maybe use "garbage time" more? If the players have an encounter in hand and all that's left is to roll some attacks 5-6 times before the monster is actually at zero, just fast forward. "Ok you guys have this pretty well locked, we're gonna skip the clean-up." It certainly works to the player's favor as it totally removes the chance a flailing monster improbably rolls a crit, but a lot of combats do end up at a point where the tension ends before the enemies run out of hit points. It's a good quality of life option to keep the game moving.

Yeah, I can agree with that but since I put them through dungeons, sometimes that is first battle and the amount of resources they can save matters. That battle I mentioned on the original post with the 2 flameskulls was the first battle of the dungeon. The flameskulls and the fire giant were the gatekeepers xD

I guess in the end, a group should not have 3 casters, specially if one of them is a druid, which has barely no damage spell at high levels.

[CTurbo]

I used https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/tools/dpr-calculator/ to calculate the DPR. Note: I gave the TWF style for free to the barb, because I know the class is a bit on the weak side. Also, I removed the bonus action from TWF, otherwise the barb suffers quite a lot, specially the wild magic one. If you look at my calculations on the original post, I included the STR on all 3 attacks. It's still not even 40 damage hitting all 3 attacks, and he is the one that has the highest DPR.

As for magic items, I am not a huge fan of +1 and +2 in general. My players have some magic items that deal extra damage under certain circumstances or against some types of enemies, but I guess 5e does depend of magic items at higher level after all.

I see my bad. If nobody else in the group has Sentinel, it can provide a good bit more DPR with a reaction attack. Otherwise I don't have any other advice to offer.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

This is probably not the response you want, but boy I wish I had this problem. My guys are pretty heavily optimized, and even a moderate amount of magic items creates situations where they trivialize a lot of fights by late tier 2. I do hear your issue, but frankly it's a lot easier to deal with than the reverse.
As others have suggested, you can give out a bit more magic, though the Barb should remain the king of DPR; after all the other 3 all have 6th and 7th level spells and should be able to seriously impact a couple of encounters per day with those. I like the idea of reducing monster hp if the players are insistent on chopping though everything, unless you want it to be a memorable battle.

But honestly, I can't quite figure out how these characters are struggling so much. With the example you gave with the Vrocks, 2 of the characters have access to Banishment. That can be cast at 7th level if they wish, so if the caster can get within 60 feet of 4 demons they're looking at needing 15s or 16s to save with advantage. That means 2-3 Vrocks just go away as long as concentration can me maintained and they're not already in the Abyss.

Obviously that's just one example, but 3 full casters have a lot of tools in their toolbox to deal with most problems. There are some monsters with lots of immunities/ resistances where DPR martials really shine, but that's not the norm

[Marcloure]

But honestly, I can't quite figure out how these characters are struggling so much. With the example you gave with the Vrocks, 2 of the characters have access to Banishment. That can be cast at 7th level if they wish, so if the caster can get within 60 feet of 4 demons they're looking at needing 15s or 16s to save with advantage. That means 2-3 Vrocks just go away as long as concentration can me maintained and they're not already in the Abyss.

Obviously that's just one example, but 3 full casters have a lot of tools in their toolbox to deal with most problems. There are some monsters with lots of immunities/ resistances where DPR martials really shine, but that's not the norm

That combat with 4 Vrocks didn't happen in my game, but the one with 1 Vrock, 2 flameskulls, and 1 fire giant dreadnought did happen. The druid didn't have banishment prepared unfortunately, and I'm unsure if the Sorcerer has it. In any case, that is the first encounter of the dungeon, and they expect 4 or 5 other encounters, so they can't go banishing everything in their way. The warlock is much better at that, in that battle she used cause fear to send the giant away for 4 rounds, which pretty much won the battle, but it still took way too long just to kill the flameskulls.

As I said in another comment above, only 1 martial character can make dealing damage really hard, specially since it's a barbarian and not a Fighter or Paladin.

[Witty Username]

Hm, so you stuffed them with magic items... that can work, but I wonder how to increase the spellcaster's damage with magic items.

It depends on the spellcaster, but generally, spellcasters are not so much damage dealers as damage facilitators.

Take say a bard, and that paladin I mentioned. That bard is never going to ouput the same as that paladin, but they don't need to. Toss out a haste and that paladin will happily swing for the fences.

Spells that reduce the number of active combatants, generate advantage, or give others material bonuses.

Take say GWM, that -5 is painful, but with a bless offseting while the enemy is prone from a grease, is alot more usable. And those are options you can spam at high level.

Also, while damage is how you win, it is also how you lose, mass combats at high level are progressively more dangerous, control spells and mitigation isn't going to make the combat faster, but fast means little if your the one in the dirt by the end of it. Sleet storm is one of my personal favorites if a more mid level example, Wall of force and Stone are common go toos.

To quote Dragon Age, "Simply killing is a warrior's job."

[Marcloure]

Also, while damage is how you win, it is also how you lose, mass combats at high level are progressively more dangerous, control spells and mitigation isn't going to make the combat faster, but fast means little if your the one in the dirt by the end of it. Sleet storm is one of my personal favorites if a more mid level example, Wall of force and Stone are common go toos.

To quote Dragon Age, "Simply killing is a warrior's job."

Sure, I do agree. But their problem is not that they can't win, just that it takes 6 rounds even for standard, "easy" battles. There were a certain hard battle that took they 9 rounds to win, it had an eladrin, a champion, 2 mages, and a young dragon. That is like 500 total hit points which they needed to deplete dealing 60-70 damage per round (that is an average, AOE would deal a lot of damage some turns, but on other turns they would cast control spells or the mages would counterspell)

[Unoriginal]

I've DMed an one-shot for 4 lvl 5 Fighters a few months ago, no magic item or special boons, and they melted through a regenerating 94 HPs troll in a few rounds even with not all the group doing damage directly. I've seen a lvl 4-5 Ranger basically solo a 40-ish HPs evil sorcerer in a couple of rounds, once, though they had a decent magic item setup.

The Barbarian you describe does not seem to be a damage dealer build, and the rest of the party seems to be focused on summon + control, so it's not surprising their DPR is lower than expected.

It may sound counter-intuitive, but try doing the calculation while replacing two of the Barbarian's feats for STR increase and give him a Greatsword to wield and you'll see the enormous difference in DPR immediately.


Sure, I do agree. But their problem is not that they can't win, just that it takes 6 rounds even for standard, "easy" battles. There were a certain hard battle that took they 9 rounds to win, it had an eladrin, a champion, 2 mages, and a young dragon. That is like 500 total hit points which they needed to deplete dealing 60-70 damage per round (that is an average, AOE would deal a lot of damage some turns, but on other turns they would cast control spells or the mages would counterspell)

Being able to survive 9 turns is a feat in itself, and show how durable the PCs are.

Worth noting that what you're describing is an encoutner of 3 damage-dealers-who-can-endure-a-big-beating enemies supported by two big-bursts-of-damages-and-other-tricks enemies, against a group of PC in numerical inferiority. It's a pretty intense setup.


In the fight I was running, which was the first fight of a dungeon, it took the group 3 rounds to kill two flameskulls, while there is still a fire giant dreadnaught with 180 HP and a vrock full HP around...

How much damage did the flameskulls inflict, during those three rounds, if you remember?

[Marcloure]

I've DMed an one-shot for 4 lvl 5 Fighters a few months ago, no magic item or special boons, and they melted through a regenerating 94 HPs troll in a few rounds even with not all the group doing damage directly. I've seen a lvl 4-5 Ranger basically solo a 40-ish HPs evil sorcerer in a couple of rounds, once, though they had a decent magic item setup.

The Barbarian you describe does not seem to be a damage dealer build, and the rest of the party seems to be focused on summon + control, so it's not surprising their DPR is lower than expected.

It may sound counter-intuitive, but try doing the calculation while replacing two of the Barbarian's feats for STR increase and give him a Greatsword to wield and you'll see the enormous difference in DPR immediately.

The barbarian has 18 STR, and as I pointed out in another comment, I gave him the TWF style for free, and removed the bonus action for the off-hand attack. All and all, he deals some 3 or 4 points of damage below a GWM build.

In any case, 4 fighters deal a lot more damage than a mostly casters with 1 martial. I realize that while casters are pretty powerful, they suck at dealing damage if they can't spam their best spells.

[Marcloure]

Being able to survive 9 turns is a feat in itself, and show how durable the PCs are.

Worth noting that what you're describing is an encoutner of 3 damage-dealers-who-can-endure-a-big-beating enemies supported by two big-bursts-of-damages-and-other-tricks enemies, against a group of PC in numerical inferiority. It's a pretty intense setup.

Yes, they don't have a lot of problems surviving. They have a lot of control and summoning spells that can fill the battlefield, it's damage that the group lacks; they have only 1 martial, and it isn't even a paladin or fighter to really dish out damage.

[Unoriginal]

In any case, 4 fighters deal a lot more damage than a mostly casters with 1 martial. I realize that while casters are pretty powerful, they suck at dealing damage if they can't spam their best spells.

As a rule, casters are great at taking hordes of low-HPs, low-saving-throw-mods mooks, not at demolishing big HP targets.

[Waazraath]

I'll echo some of the above (these aren't high DPR builds, so yeah, DPR isn't high), and also agree with the OP, especially regarding the barbarian. Most classes do get a significant damage increase at higher levels. Spells continue to scale, fighter gets a 3rd and 4th attack, paladin the extra 1d8 at every attack at lvl 11 (and scaling spells, and scaling smites), rogue's sneak attack continue to increase. But expecially the barbarian and also the monk, these gain only little increase in damage after level 5 (extra attack). Of course, there are some feats for minor damage increases, and there's maxing out the attack stat, but compared to other classes (which also have these options) this not too much. And for monk this is less of a problem, cause they more or less change role (less damage more control with stun), but especially for barbarian's this does become a bit of an issue at higher levels, since they don't get the kind of new cool tools monks get, and Brutal critical just doesn't cut it.

All depending on subclass, build etc. of course. And managable through items - drop a belt of giant strength for the barbarian and combat will go a lot faster.

[Marcloure]

Spells continue to scale

I agree with all of what you said, but damaging spells in particular scale quite poorly. Some spells like synaptic static and firestorm still deal the same 8d6 at 5th or 6th spell slots, and cone of cold is just a bit ahead in damage. Don't get me wrong, casters do get a lot stronger as they level up, but their damage output doesn't scale very well too. Playing with a group of mostly casters has shown its problems when most enemies after a certain CR has 150+ HP.

[Waazraath]

I agree with all of what you said, but damaging spells in particular scale quite poorly. Some spells like synaptic static and firestorm still deal the same 8d6 at 5th or 6th spell slots, and cone of cold is just a bit ahead in damage. Don't get me wrong, casters do get a lot stronger as they level up, but their damage output doesn't scale very well too. Playing with a group of mostly casters has shown its problems when most enemies after a certain CR has 150+ HP.

I guess this is pretty build dependent, and depending on how many and what type of enemies you encounter - I've seen e.g. a Sorcerer in tier 3 with an empowerd & heightened cone of cold, and some luck rolling the dice, clearing a room with 100'ds of hp of creatures. A twinned disintegrate does on average 150 damage (on failed saves). But yeah, when encountering for instance max 2 creatures and the Druid prepared high level damage spells like Sunburst or Firestorm, or has to fall back on Blight, it can feel underwelming.

[Hael]

I agree with all of what you said, but damaging spells in particular scale quite poorly..

Most blasting spells scale quite poorly in general and are something of a trap. But spells are still the way you achieve some of the truly insane dpr in this game.. Especially at high levels!

Your casters should be deploying summoning spells (conjure X/Animate objects/summon greater demon etc), and planar bindings. They should be using tiny servants, and using push/pull spells (spike growth/wall of fire etc). . They should be dropping objects on people, or throwing them off cliffs. They should be picking spells that automatically down fliers (getting ground damage). It all adds up very quickly, and in tier3 resources should really not be a problem anymore.

[Waazraath]

Most blasting spells scale quite poorly in general and are something of a trap. But spells are still the way you achieve some of the truly insane dpr in this game.. Especially at high levels!

Your casters should be deploying summoning spells (conjure X/Animate objects/summon greater demon etc), and planar bindings. They should be using tiny servants, and using push/pull spells (spike growth/wall of fire etc). . They should be dropping objects on people, or throwing them off cliffs. They should be picking spells that automatically down fliers (getting ground damage). It all adds up very quickly, and in tier3 resources should really not be a problem anymore.

While overall true (though in my experience resources definitely can still be a problem in tier 3 for casters), this is also something about playstyle. The 'mage blasting enemies with elements' is a pretty typical fantasy trope which people like to play, the 'mage pushing/pulling enemies over a grater of spiked stones' does not exist outside D&D, and only exists in D&D because of the mechanics (lots of damage, w00t!). To me it's both less traditional fantasly and almost more slapstick comedy, and I'd totally understand if people would choose not to play in such a way (and that's disregarding that it requirers some system mastery to notice that such a playstyle does more damage).

In other words: it's really weird (and tbh a design flaw) that such a type of casting is better supported and does more damage than "throwing lightning" (or the like), and the default damage spells even being 'something like a trap' is just bad.

[MoiMagnus]

Quick tip to shorten encounters: don't hesitate to have the enemies start injured (like 3/4 HP or half-HP) when it make sense narratively.


Hm, so you stuffed them with magic items... that can work, but I wonder how to increase the spellcaster's damage with magic items.

Yes, stuffing them with magic items work (like Flame Tongue (https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/5386-flame-tongue) for the barbarian)
For the caster, giving them items that grant spell slots mean that they can use more spells per encounter.

[stoutstien]

You just have a fairly moderate damage dealing party. Barbarians especially focus more on consistency and durability. Count your blessings because this makes it a lot easier to use the bulk of materials.

Easiest solution to keep combat from taking as long as just adjust the NPCs. Start Rolling HP and maybe morale/instinct checks. Even demons might not want to get sent back to the abyss depending on thier goals.

Reinforcing the damage treadmill won't get you anywhere in the end besides a game of rocket tag that has the opposite problem of being 1 and done which is arguably less satisfying for all involved.

[LudicSavant]

I agree with all of what you said, but damaging spells in particular scale quite poorly. Some spells like synaptic static and firestorm still deal the same 8d6 at 5th or 6th spell slots, and cone of cold is just a bit ahead in damage.

Synaptic Static is a control spell, and Cone of Cold is mostly about the *breadth* of targets it hits rather than the damage per target (because its AoE coverage is huge). If you want to look at single target damage options for casters, you should be looking at stuff like summons, buffs, action economy augmentations (like Crown of Stars), stacking bonuses on multihit spells, hazard combos, or the like.


The spellcasters, expect the warlock, are even worse most of the time, some turns dealing about 10 damage, and even their best spells (fireball, firestorm, synaptic static) deal "only" 27–36 damage.

27-36 damage implies hitting a single target. Generally speaking, you shouldn't be throwing those spells at single targets -- there are spells better suited for that.


So, I'm running into the issue that in a standard encounter with 4 enemies ranging from CR 5–13, monsters have between 80 to 180 HP. That means that to kill even a single Vrock with 104 HP, it takes far too long. If everyone hits their attacks and the Vrock fails every saving throw against a 8d6 damage spell, it's still a whole round to take it down, but realistically, it will take 1.5 round or more per vrock. A standard battle against 4 Vrocks might take 6 rounds, and it's even worse if the players don't want to burn through their spell slots that fast and use some cantrips or spells like call lightning.

This "1.5 rounds per Vrock = 6 rounds" example shows you doing the damage of an unaugmented level 3 AoE spell against a single target, and nothing else during your turn -- which means that the casters aren't Concentrating on anything or using bonus actions or reactions or minions or otherwise filling out their action economy.

So there's two big areas that the players can improve their output here: One is that there are waaay better options for casters to lay out damage on single targets than AoE spells, and two is that high level casters can and should often be doing more during their turn than just casting a single spell.


Is this the normal high level experience?

It just sounds like your PCs are not optimized for damage -- particularly if your Barbarian is the highest DPR at high levels (they are on the lower end of classes for damage potential at high levels, even with optimized Zealots, and your Barb is a good bit below that output).

[Chronic]

The barbarian should be buffed by the casters, should solve most of your party problems. Haste+elemental weapon is great for adding consistent damage for example. Otherwise, just cut the monsters hp, you're the DM, you should tailor the encounter to your party. I'd even argue that just hitting monsters until they fall is fairly poor design encounter anyway, give the casters something else to do, give the party a goal to accomplish.

[J-H]

Congratulations, most DMs have the problem of "My PCs are dealing too much damage and fights keep ending in 3 rounds!"

Baseline DPR is to compare against an Agonizing Blast Warlock, which at this level would do 3d10+15 if he hit with everything, or 18-45, average damage 31.5 with everything hitting. Your TWF Barbarian is a bit ahead of that, and AOE spells hitting everyone for around that damage is about right.
If all 4 PCs average about 30 damage per round, then an ancient white dragon would last 3-4 rounds against them (333hp, AC 20), which is about right.

Sure, there are misses (mitigated by Bless) against AC 20, but critical hits and failed saves also stack up extra damage to compensate.

Casters excel at debuffs, manipulation, and AOEs. Martials excel at single-target focused damage.
Sorcerers should be using Twin to boost up other people or to hand out crippling debuffs like Blindness. Druids have some damage, but it's mostly AOE and Damage Over Time stuff (insect plague, firestorm, cone of cold). They do not excel at single target damage. Some of those enemies should be blinded, entangled, earthbound, dominated, etc. If a 3-caster party is doing nothing but targeting HP, they are the ones slowing things down for themselves.

[da newt]

How experienced / skilled are your Players? It sounds like they are using fairly basic tactics and haven't really figured out how to best cooperated to more efficiently defeat the bad guys.

For you as DM, the easiest way to deal with your issue is to decrease the bad guy's HP a little, have them run away once they realize there is no chance for them to win, and decrease the number of bad guys you throw into any one combat. Slogs can get tedious - glass cannon type foes can be more exciting, but also more volatile.

Your's is a good problem to have as it is pretty easy to adjust for.

[Marcloure]

This "1.5 rounds per Vrock = 6 rounds" example shows you doing the damage of an unaugmented level 3 AoE spell against a single target, and nothing else during your turn -- which means that the casters aren't Concentrating on anything or using bonus actions or reactions or minions or otherwise filling out their action economy.

That was just a quick example. The Vrock has magic resistance and resistance to several types of damage, In a real situation it would be probably even harder to hurt them with spells. Also, they don't use their fireballs to hit a single target.

As for concentration, of course they concentrate on something. The Sorcerer usually uses summon Aberrant Spirit, Enervation, or Suggestion, the Warlock uses Fear, Darkness, Suggestion, or some other debuff, the druid uses summoning spells as well, Wall of Fire, Entangle, Call Lightning, or sometimes Protection from Energy so the barbarian doesn't disintegrate to fire damage.

[Marcloure]

How experienced / skilled are your Players? It sounds like they are using fairly basic tactics and haven't really figured out how to best cooperated to more efficiently defeat the bad guys.

In RPGs overall, quite experienced, but not a lot in 5e. The issue is that even me (who has played 5e for 10 years now) can't see how they can increase their damage. Again, the issue is not that can't win, they can outplay their enemies and control the hell out of them while protecting the barbarian. The problem is that every turn they spend using fear, suggestion, sleet storm, darkness, or wall of stone is a turn they don't deal damage, and it adds to several extra rounds in the end. Summoning spells are great to deal damage, I agree with that, but if they are concentrating on something else that doesn't work...

[J-H]

Those spells don't deal damage, but they prevent damage. Do you feel like they are still at risk in most combats, or are they winning easily but slowly?

I prefer 3-6 round combats instead of 2-3 round battles myself.

[Marcloure]

Those spells don't deal damage, but they prevent damage. Do you feel like they are still at risk in most combats, or are they winning easily but slowly?

I prefer 3-6 round combats instead of 2-3 round battles myself.

They can win, it just takes them 6 rounds for a standard, easy battle, and up to 9 or 10 rounds for harder battles. Depending on the complexity of the battle, it can take us a session and a half to do a major battle with 4 NPCs + some CR 1 minions. This is what I would like to make quicker...

[Eldariel]

Sounds like they're being efficient in a way: they aren't consuming needless resources on killing disabled opponents. You could just fastforward the rounds when the results of the fight are a foregone conclusion. Or perhaps the Druid could just opt for using Conjure Animals more for murderification purposes for example (one of the better caster options for killing single targets - any Tasha's Summons work too, of course). In general, at least one of them should be concentrating on a summon if damage is in want; those do good damage, last a while, and can also debuff enemies and take attacks. Honestly, while there are some characters that sound like they are not really built for damage (the Barb stands out; they could do way more if they wanted to), I think on a system level they do quite reasonable damage as long as they pick damaging Concentrations.

[Jack Bitters]

In my current group we're level 15: paladin (me), a zealot barbarian, a sorlock, and a bladesinger wizard. The barbarian has a flametongue greatsword, the warlock has illusionist's bracers (for bonus action eldritch blasts) and will twin haste the melee combatants, and sometimes we get to fight enemies vulnerable to radiant damage (paladin crit for 146 damage once, which was nice). We do not lack for damage. But our combats tend to range from 4-12+ turns in length (shortest one with 4 rounds recently was against a dire troll, a giant crocodile, and 3 shambling mounds) and they can take anywhere from 45 minutes to 3 and a half hours. We just aren't speedy players.

Now, clearly you've done your research and your players are using their abilities wisely.
Where is your biggest concern? That your players will get bored of performing the same action for the fifth or seventh or tenth round in a row? Is it a resource concern, that the spellcasters simply use more resources as fights drag on longer, and that means a sudden stop to the adventuring day? Or is it a time concern, where maybe you meet once a week and you don't want to spend the entire session fighting a single combat?
Perhaps there is room for improvement in how fast your players actually take their turns. I know on my end, our spellcasters routinely take a couple minutes per turn to decide on a spell and understand its effects before acting. Can you speak to that?

[Marcloure]

Where is your biggest concern? Or is it a time concern, where maybe you meet once a week and you don't want to spend the entire session fighting a single combat?
Perhaps there is room for improvement in how fast your players actually take their turns. I know on my end, our spellcasters routinely take a couple minutes per turn to decide on a spell and understand its effects before acting. Can you speak to that?

Just time, yeah. Like, I like to run dungeons, but since my group can only do two battles per session max, and harder battles might even take more than a session, a dungeon with 5 or 6 encounters can take 8 sessions to complete, which is almost two months!

[Eldariel]

Just time, yeah. Like, I like to run dungeons, but since my group can only do two battles per session max, and harder battles might even take more than a session, a dungeon with 5 or 6 encounters can take 8 sessions to complete, which is almost two months!

In that case I suggest the "Fastforward the encounter to the end marking a bit of damage and maybe a minor resource spent after the victory is basically assured".

[Slipjig]

It sounds like your group is built for survivability, not for speed. If you want to speed things up, maybe try playing where everything in the game (except maybe environmental threats) does double damage? That should speed up the process considerably without throwing the balance off too much (other than high initiative suddenly being MUCH more important).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Just time, yeah. Like, I like to run dungeons, but since my group can only do two battles per session max, and harder battles might even take more than a session, a dungeon with 5 or 6 encounters can take 8 sessions to complete, which is almost two months!

This is a feature of higher level play in my experience, despite that my players usually find ways of eliminating enemies in fewer rounds. Legendary actions, reactions, lair actions, increased number of attacks and bonus actions all contribute to longer (real time) battles regardless of attempts to mitigate it.
As has been said upthread, it doesn't sound like your players are necessarily playing badly; they're using control to deal with hostiles, but it just takes a while. Unless the Druid is a Shepherd (and I may have missed it in the thread) their summoned critters are more like tanks than damage dealers vs. anything with BPS resistance.
I do find your experience somewhat similar to when I DMed Rise of Tiamat in the sense that the martials did tend to be more valuable against the dragons, particularly Tiamat where the Wizard struggled to be useful. The difference is that the casters in that campaign were more effective most of the rest of the time where there were hordes or enemies that didn't have a lot of resistances.
I think if I were you I'd give the Barb a serious weapon; somebody mentioned a Flame Tongue upthread I think. With something like that the rest of the party would be incentivized to buff the Barb and play as a team more where it comes to DPS and big single enemies.

[Unoriginal]

Just time, yeah. Like, I like to run dungeons, but since my group can only do two battles per session max, and harder battles might even take more than a session, a dungeon with 5 or 6 encounters can take 8 sessions to complete, which is almost two months!

Have you considered "hordes of mooks" encounters?

It's not because the PCs are level 14 that the Bad Guys (TM) are going to stop defending their dungeons with henchpeople who have less than 15 HPs.

[Marcloure]

Have you considered "hordes of mooks" encounters?

It's not because the PCs are level 14 that the Bad Guys (TM) are going to stop defending their dungeons with henchpeople who have less than 15 HPs.

I do use minions in some battles, but not always. I feel like 5e eventually stucks the average CR the players should be facing at a pretty low value. It's very hard to make a battle with 4 creatures raging from CR 10–15, not only there aren't a lot of options, but the system really seems to expect that you keep fighting the same CR 2-8 creatures until the very top levels... which is a bummer to me.

[Yakk]

18 strength at level 14 is low.

"Free" TWF means you get 1d8+4[str]+3[rage]+1[magic weapon] = 1d8+8 (12.5) x3 at +8 to hit. Against AC 18 this is 55% hit chance 5% crit chance without reckless.

(12.5 * .55 + .05 * 4.5) * 3 is 21.3 DPR.

Up your strength by 2 and you get (13.5 * .6 + 0.05 * 4.5) * 3 = 25.0 DPR, a 17% increase in damage output. (The same would happen from a +2 weapon).

Adding reckless and we get (12.5 * 0.8 + .1 * 4.5)*3 = 31.4 With +2 strength, (13.5 * .84 + 0.1 * 4.5) * 3 = 35.4, a 13% increase.

PAM with GWF and 20 strength and reckless a +1 polearm would 1d10+5+3+1+10 (24.5) x2 and 1d4+5+3+1+10 (21.5) x1 at 58% accuracy/10% crit.

(24.5 * .58 *2 + 21.5 * .58 * 1 + (5.5+5.5+2.5)*.1) = 42.24 damage against 18 AC.

This is doing 34.5% more damage than your sample barbarian. It does cost you your bonus action (which you give for free).

...

Lots of the 5e classes have a back 10 problem.

By back 10, I mean they don't get great (especially offensive) features from level 11 to 20 (roughly).

By the 5e system, from level 10 to 20 you should roughly double your damage output. Fighters pull this off, going from 2 to 4 attacks.

Barbarians get +2 to hit, 2 brutal critical dice and +1 rage damage, and +4 strength at 20. This doesn't come close to doubling damage output.

Spellcasters mostly lean on their spells for this back 10 scaling.

Paladins get more smite dice, and +1d8 per tap at 11, and some nice spells.

Rangers and Monks are anemic here. Monks get 1d8 and 1d10 unarmed attacks. Rangers get nada.

Artificers features are sort of fun, but not very offensive.

Warlocks EB scaling is acceptable.

[stoutstien]

I do use minions in some battles, but not always. I feel like 5e eventually stucks the average CR the players should be facing at a pretty low value. It's very hard to make a battle with 4 creatures raging from CR 10–15, not only there aren't a lot of options, but the system really seems to expect that you keep fighting the same CR 2-8 creatures until the very top levels... which is a bummer to me.

5e really doesn't assume much as a baseline. It's fully expecting DMs to tinker with stuff to find what works.

One table might normally see encounters full of similar CR +/- a few from the party's average level and the next will normally handle 2 or 3 times that like it's nothing. Too much comes down to table factors to assume otherwise.

[sithlordnergal]

Sooo, important questions:

We know the Barbarian is a Wild Magic Barbarian that dual wields, and has +1 weapons.

1) What are the Druid, Sorcerer, and Warlock subclasses? Because that could have a big effect on damage. Like, I'd expect a Moon, Stars, or Sheppard Druid to deal more damage than a Dream or Land Druid.

2) what sort of spells did the Warlock and Sorcerer take? It sounds like the Sorcerer prefers control spells over damage spells. Is the warlock the same?


From what I've read in the thread, your casters have gone for more control based spells than anything else. which, while control spells are great, they tend to lack damage.

[Marcloure]

Sooo, important questions:

We know the Barbarian is a Wild Magic Barbarian that dual wields, and has +1 weapons.

1) What are the Druid, Sorcerer, and Warlock subclasses? Because that could have a big effect on damage. Like, I'd expect a Moon, Stars, or Sheppard Druid to deal more damage than a Dream or Land Druid.

2) what sort of spells did the Warlock and Sorcerer take? It sounds like the Sorcerer prefers control spells over damage spells. Is the warlock the same?


From what I've read in the thread, your casters have gone for more control based spells than anything else. which, while control spells are great, they tend to lack damage.

1) Druid is Land Druid, which doesn't benefit from the extra damage Stars and other druids can deal with a bonus action. Sorcerer is Aberrant Mind, which also doesn't deal extra damage, but can convert lower level slots into higher level slots. Warlock is Shadow, which does deal a bit extra damage with Grave Touched.

2) Sorcerer has aberrant spirit, synaptic static, dominate person, fireball, counterspell, vortex warp, psychic lance, mind whip, dissonant whisper. His spells can deal an amount of damage, but even on a hit it's usually about 30 damage. The warlock has synaptic static, suggestion, fear, hold monster, bane, death ward, hunger of hadar. Most of her spells are bebuffs, but she can deal damage with eldritch blast (less than the barbarian, but still).

[Frogreaver]

The warlock should be coming close to the barbarians damage just with EB and AB. They other 2 casters should be using at least 1 level 3+ concentration spell most encounters. If he uses hex he might even exceed the barbarians damage.

Maybe the druid uses a summon fey or plant growth or sleet storm, etc. Maybe the sorcerer uses animate objects or haste.

Throw in a few fireballs and ice storms at good moments and you should see enemies die much faster.

Seriously the dpr of animate objects, summon fey, a warlock using hex and EB and a barbarian should do good damage. Talking potential for over 200 average damage a turn before accuracy is accounted for. That could push you to maybe 120 to 140 in most circumstances. Throw out an occasional fireball or sleet storm and you are looking at 3-4 rounds to chew through the 500 or so combined monster hp of the enemy groups you were talking about.

I think the casters are just too afraid to use slots or donÂ’t have the right spells prepared.

Alternatively if they go hard control the fights will last a lot longer but youÂ’ll probably take less damage. I guess my ideal take would be control from 1 full caster and damage from the other. Warlock should help focus on damage.

[LudicSavant]

That was just a quick example. The Vrock has magic resistance and resistance to several types of damage, In a real situation it would be probably even harder to hurt them with spells.
If your players are taking 6+ rounds to go through four basic Vrocks at fourteenth level, it's indicative that their damage output is relatively low.

Magic Resistance is not a general defense against magic, it only gives Advantage vs save-based spells. Many strong offensive options bypass it, including the ones I named as examples. In fact, it is generally advisable for caster players to always have options prepped that counter the common resistances of fiends (and Legendary Resistance too, while you're at it).

[Fredaintdead]

Okay, so by your own admission, the Barbarian does about this much damage per round: 1d8+8 x3 (37.5)

Flametongue (which could even be some sort of boon that you give them that makes their weapons deal +2d6 elemental damage of whatever type you like. Based on their level, you may even let this be "You can change the damage type between Acid/Cold/Fire/Lightning when you take a short/long rest"): Adds 7 damage per swing (21 -> 58.5 total)
- If this becomes too high, you simply adjust to Resistant enemies.
- Personally, I'm inclined to stick it at fire and make it from something cool, like plunging your arms directly into the dying heart of a red dragon, feeling its arcane blood burn your skin to obsidian like a layer of enchanted armour, but that's besides the point.

Another fun "You're the DM" idea is to let the Barbarian just use bigger weapons. Give them Large-sized Warhammers and watch that 3d8+24 turn into 6d8+24 (a 36% boost).

And as people have said, other things they can be casting to directly boost Mr "I am the class that can most reliably do single-target damage here". Such as:
Elemental Weapon/Enlarge: Adds 2.5 damage per swing (7.5/round -> 45 total). This is a 20% increase in DPR. Elemental Weapon can even be upcast if you like! A 5th level spell slot is a lot but hey, sometimes you need 15 (6d4) extra elemental damage per round.
Haste: Adds 12.5 damage per round via the extra attack (50 total). This is a 33% increase in DPR.
- Just combining these two means you've added 22.5 damage per round to the Barbarian. A total increase of 60%!
Polymorph: Did you think the Barbarian was dead? Yes? NO! They have 157hp and deal 44 damage a round!

Other options:
- Remind me them that their AoEs do that amount of damage PER TARGET. Sure, Fireball averages 14/28 damage based on saving throws, but if you hit 3 targets that's 42/84 damage. Take an average CR 5 monster like an Air Elemental (which has 90hp). A medium encounter of just these is 4 of them. A single Fireball that hits all 4 of them takes out 30% of the enemy's Total HP in a round. Yeah, it's not great single target, but like, that's the Sorcerer's action (with 2 other casters available to do stuff!).
- Concentration damage effects like Flaming Sphere and the like (2d6 isn't a lot, but 2d6 for FREE every turn gets 100% better if the boss has a minion nearby).
- Summon Spells! Conjure Animals to summon 8 Velociraptors is 16 attacks a round, at advantage due to Pack Tactics. A potential damage output of 8d4+8d6+32 damage per round. The Summon spells from Tasha's might not be as efficient as Conjure Animals, but a single 6th level Summon Abberation can give you a flying, AC 17, 60hp, lasermachine (3 attacks giving a potential damage output of 3d8+27) which outdamages the Barbarian for a SINGLE SPELL SLOT! EVERY TURN! FOR AN HOUR!

Some other spells each character has access to that could improve damage (give the Warlock and the Sorcerer the option to swap out some spells if they're not happy):
Sorcerer
- Create Bonfire is a resourceless, consistent 3d8 fire damage that interacts very well with any sort of push effect (such as Barbarian shoves and Repelling Blast from the Warlock). Potentially adding 9d8 of damage per round.
- Twinned Dragon's Breath (2nd) affecting say, two rats (possibly a familiar! Or some Raptors summoned by the Druid) can add 6d6 elemental damage every turn.
- Hold Person/Monster (2nd/5th) is all or nothing, but Hold Person with the Barbarian or 8 Velociraptors standing next to them is NASTY.
- Bit of an upgraded Bonfire in Wall of Fire (4th). Less of a damage boost (5d8 over 3d8) but it maintains the interaction with push effects AND has a bigger area of effect.
- Animate Objects (5th). Summoning 10 tiny objects gives you a potential damage output of 10d4+40 (65 DPR).
Warlock
- Summon Draconic Spirit (6th). It's a flying, AC 20, 50hp, grants you a resistance, deals 3d6+30 in melee with a 2d6 AoE (30ft cone) deathmachine! It's also big enough to carry a party member, so you've made a rad mount too (come on, you know somebody wants to ride a dragon).
- Crown of Stars (7th). 1 hour. No concentration. Bonus action 4d12 (26) radiant damage. It's a big gun spell slot but for efficient single target (It's adding 70% of the Barbarian to the Sorcerer's damage output, AND it can be stacked with something like Create Bonfire! Or even Polymorph! The Giant Ape now has STARLASERS!)

Druid
- Can also access Create Bonfire
- Summon Beast (2nd): Sure, the 2nd level version only deals 1d8+6 (10.5) per round, but even that is NO ACTION COST past the initial casting. If you want to cast with an 8th level slot it's 4d8+48 (Woah, that's 66 per round!)
- Summon Fey (3rd): Comes with a bonus action teleport and a 2d6+3+Spell level swing (maxing out at 8d6+44).
- Conjure Woodland Beings (4th): Okay, so this is kinda of a "we may be looking at something busted", because we can get 8 Pixies out of this, each of which can cast Polymorph. So it's a 4th level spell that actually casts EIGHT 4th level spells.
- Also has Wall of Fire
- Summon Elemental (4th): The Air Elemental flies, squeezes through gaps and does 2d10+16 at its base level (maxing out at 4d10+48 at 8th level).
- Conjure Elemental (5th): Will literally give you the CR 5 statblock. Earth Elementals average 28 damage a round and are quite hardy.
- Also has Summon Draconic Spirit. This group can have TWO DRAGONS for an hour.

Warlock:
- So, to start with, we have Eldritch Blast optimisation. Even with just Agonist Blast and Hex, your Warlock can shotgun 3d10+15+3d6 (42) at 120ft range into a single target every round. When we start adding in things like Repelling Blast and any consistent damage effect that either the Warlock (sacrificing the Hex damage usually) or the other casters can generate, or even some item support (Illusionist Bracers let you cast the same cantrip again as a bonus action) it can get NUTS. Hex on its own is EXCELLENT VALUE, because auto-upcasting to 5th means 24hr duration and bonus action to move it whenever the target dies.
- Cloud of Daggers (2nd): Oh hey, that's a 5ft cube that deals 10d4 slashing damage each round AND interacts with push effects. The Barbarian just trading one of their attacks to push someone back into it trades 1d8+8 (12.5) damage for 10d4 (25), which is actually DOUBLE the value of that single attack.
- Spirit Shroud (3rd): A bonus action concentration spell that gives +2d8 Radiant/Necrotic/Cold on every hit if the target is within 10ft of you, and they can't regain hp that turn. It also reduces the speed of any creature that starts its turn within 10ft of you by 10ft.
- Summon Fey/Shadowspawn/Undead/Abberation (3rd+): All getting automatically upcast to 5th. So 2 swings on all of them.
- Shadow of Moil (4th): More of a combo idea. You can have this AND Armour of Agathys up (which at 5th level is 25 temp hp). So an attacker within 10ft of you that hits you takes 2d8+25 damage, and probably doesn't actually hurt you (due to the temps). You're also heavily obscured, which is disadvantage for them to hit you if they rely on sight.

And all of this is just flat damage stuff, we're not even getting into the benefit of "technical DPR increase" via increasing accuracy through anything that restrains, prones or otherwise locks down enemies.

So let's look at what we can do in terms of a "boss monster" fight against this group, and see how just damage stacks up. Let's go with a Kraken (about Deadly x2 for them).
The Kraken has 472hp, and an AC of 18, it doesn't particularly have any other relevant defensive abilities (other than its Legendary Action Ink Cloud).

Round 1:
The Sorcerer casts Haste on the Barbarian.
The Barbarian rages and uses the Haste action to get into range (it seemed reasonable for the Barbarian to get into range with 160ft of movement) and swings twice for 2d8+16, modified by the 87.75% chance to hit to ~22 damage. (22)
The Warlock casts Hex as a bonus action, then Eldritch Blast. Accuracy is 65% (based on +10 to hit), so from 3d10+15+3d6, ~27 gets through (49)
The Druid casts Summon Draconic Spirit at 8th level. The spirit attacks 4 times at +10 to hit, with 1d6+12 per hit, we'll ignore the AoE for ease of calculation. ~40 damage gets through (89)

Round 2:
The Sorcerer can basically choose any blam-o spell they like. I'm gonna say Disintegrate. 10d6+40 with a 50% chance of success means we can calculate this as ~37 damage. (126)
The Barbarian makes 4 attacks for 4d8+32. Same accuracy so that's ~44 damage (170)
The Warlock fires off another Eldritch Blast, and assuming Illusionist's Bracers, deals twice the damage they did last round. So ~54 (224)
The Druid an do frankly whatever they like while their dragon does another 49. (273)
In two rounds the Kraken has taken ~58% of its hp, so we can assume it would die in 4 rounds.

Total expenditure:
The Sorcerer expended a Lv3 and a Lv6 spell slot.
The Druid expended a Lv8 spell slot.
The Warlock expended a spell slot.

They didn't take advantage of any hazard effects they could create, and other than the Druid, no one really fired off a big gun.

[J-H]

Do your players feel like their damage is too low?

[sithlordnergal]

1) Druid is Land Druid, which doesn't benefit from the extra damage Stars and other druids can deal with a bonus action. Sorcerer is Aberrant Mind, which also doesn't deal extra damage, but can convert lower level slots into higher level slots. Warlock is Shadow, which does deal a bit extra damage with Grave Touched.

2) Sorcerer has aberrant spirit, synaptic static, dominate person, fireball, counterspell, vortex warp, psychic lance, mind whip, dissonant whisper. His spells can deal an amount of damage, but even on a hit it's usually about 30 damage. The warlock has synaptic static, suggestion, fear, hold monster, bane, death ward, hunger of hadar. Most of her spells are bebuffs, but she can deal damage with eldritch blast (less than the barbarian, but still).

Ok, that explains a lot. The casters all chose control based subclasses, and the Sorcerer has a lot more control spells than damage spells. Looks like their main damage spells are AoE. There are ways to boost their damage, though it involves changing up their spell lists. Which is admittedly harder for the Sorcerer and Warlock to do...


For the Druid, I would suggest always having a few of the following spells prepared, as they deal a decent amount of damage.


Whirlwind
Sunbeam
Wall of Thorns
Cone of Cold
Summon Draconic Spirit
Blight
Wall of Fire




Once the Sorcerer gains a level, or if you give them and the Warlock a chance to change their spells, I'd suggest taking at least one of the following:


Crown of Stars
Prismatic Spray
Chain Lightning
Disintegrate
Animate Objects




Finally, for the Warlock, EB is going to be their bread and butter for damage. If they really wanna boost their damage, take Crown of Stars for their Mystic Arcanum. Crown of Stars is just a really good damage boost as a 7th level spell...

[Marcloure]

<Lots of tips>

WOW! Thanks, I think that is exactly what my players need to read, hahaha! I'll pass this along for them, there are some really good tips there, specially about spells that you can stick on the ground and push people into them. Also Elemental Weapon!


<more tips>

Thanks, that helps too!

[LudicSavant]

I'll pass this along for them, there are some really good tips there, specially about spells that you can stick on the ground and push people into them.

Yep. Like I said, you should be looking at stuff like summons, buffs, action economy augmentations (like Crown of Stars), stacking bonuses on multihit spells, hazard combos (e.g. putting down spells you can push people into and such), or the like.

AoEs like Cone of Cold or Firestorm should be viewed as a small subsection of a caster's damage options, used situationally (such as when they'll hit a large number of enemies).

[Kane0]

What really bugs me out is that damage barely increases from level 5 up. The warlock gains a third beam, which is awesome, but the other classes barely deal more damage than they did back at the 5th level.

Yeah level 10/11 is supposed to be the other big increase in damage output for most martials but it's not really the same hit as level 5 is. Fighters, Rogues and Paladins do get a bit more than Rangers, Barbarians and Monks though.

[Yakk]

So the real secret of D&D is that the DM is in charge of the difficulty dials.

The DM has the right to halve monster HP, double monster HP, halve monster damage, double monster damage, replace monsters with tougher ones, replace monsters with easier ones.

The DM also has the right to give PCs boons, more XP, less XP, and magic items. It is, however, frowned upon to nerf PCs by taking away their fun toys (players have only a little mechanical control in D&D, giving them their PC is a mercy).

Use your tools.

Having monsters deal max damage (!) (and only roll dice on a crit) is one easy solution. Monsters become more dangerous for their CR, which means you use lower CR monsters ... which have less HP, which die faster.

...

5e specific is that monster badassery is linear in CR. Divide monsters into the following buckets:

Under 1 CR.
1-3 CR.
4-7 CR.
8-20 CR.
21-30 CR.

If all you care about is what of the above windows a monster is in, you can build encounters in 5e.

Under 1 CR monsters are things PCs should only fight in groups, or as mooks next to a bigger creature.

CR 1-3 monsters start out as elites, but devolve into mooks later on.

CR 4-8 are big bad monsters for beginning heroes - BBEGs - but become soldiers later on. Large multiples of these cannot be fought without serious strategy even in T4.

CR 9-20 are the meat and potatoes solos. These can be the central foe in a fight for a PC from level 5 to 20, just with more allies at the later point.

CR 21+ creatures are big bad evil dudes. Unless you are in T4 or near, they should be something the players fear to fight (run away, not engage).

Dropping a monster down within a window gives about the same narrative oomph, but the HP/damage output drops by about a factor of 2 within each window.

That gives a lot of room to pick monsters that are taylored to how optimized your party is.

Halving a monsters HP and damage output basically drops its CR by (very roughly) half. Halving just HP cuts off about 25% off their CR.

[Kane0]

So the real secret of D&D is -

Have you considered making a little handbook?

[Rafaelfras]

While overall true (though in my experience resources definitely can still be a problem in tier 3 for casters), this is also something about playstyle. The 'mage blasting enemies with elements' is a pretty typical fantasy trope which people like to play, the 'mage pushing/pulling enemies over a grater of spiked stones' does not exist outside D&D, and only exists in D&D because of the mechanics (lots of damage, w00t!). To me it's both less traditional fantasly and almost more slapstick comedy, and I'd totally understand if people would choose not to play in such a way (and that's disregarding that it requirers some system mastery to notice that such a playstyle does more damage).

In other words: it's really weird (and tbh a design flaw) that such a type of casting is better supported and does more damage than "throwing lightning" (or the like), and the default damage spells even being 'something like a trap' is just bad.

There are subclasses for casters who want to blast like evoker wizard with magic missle for single target and overchanel and sculpt spell, warlock hexblade that is op by itself and sorcerer with its crazy combinations and this is very surface level. (like the sorcerer with cone of cold in prior example). I dont think it is a design flaw so much as you need to know what to chose in order to focus on damage as 5th ed shifted single target damage to martials. I dont think a caster need to surpass a martial in single target in order to contribute significantly to damage overall. I play evoker and my damage is quite good, overchanel dawn or sickening radiance, crown of stars and magic missle span do a LOT per round, and overchanel cone of cold does 69 damage in a very big area so seems fine by me.

As for OP, give then better magic itens, a flame tongue weapon will help your barbarian damage a lot, something that allow him to cast haste on hilself will also help and for the casters itens such a staff of power allow then to throw spells more often so you will get faster encounters too.
Summoning also help to increase the overall damage BUT it slows down play so I would advise careful with that.


Very good tips
I think this hits the nail in the head

[5eNeedsDarksun]

There are subclasses for casters who want to blast like evoker wizard with magic missle for single target and overchanel and sculpt spell, warlock hexblade that is op by itself and sorcerer with its crazy combinations and this is very surface level. (like the sorcerer with cone of cold in prior example). I dont think it is a design flaw so much as you need to know what to chose in order to focus on damage as 5th ed shifted single target damage to martials. I dont think a caster need to surpass a martial in single target in order to contribute significantly to damage overall. I play evoker and my damage is quite good, overchanel dawn or sickening radiance, crown of stars and magic missle span do a LOT per round, and overchanel cone of cold does 69 damage in a very big area so seems fine by me.

As for OP, give then better magic itens, a flame tongue weapon will help your barbarian damage a lot, something that allow him to cast haste on hilself will also help and for the casters itens such a staff of power allow then to throw spells more often so you will get faster encounters too.
Summoning also help to increase the overall damage BUT it slows down play so I would advise careful with that.


I think this hits the nail in the head

I'd agree that evokers are more than fine, and in many cases blasting is not suboptimal. Your example of cone of cold is a good one; we've had evokers and a dragon sorc at our table and both were very effective. When you tack on the bonuses that those subclasses give on top of well timed blasting the damage is impressive.
The whole line of thought that says 'control is better' kind of strikes me as a sort of snobbery by some players that presume to know better. This thread somewhat debunks the myth when everyone builds to control, then players look around and wonder who is actually going to finish the fight. Our most effective casters use a variety of tactics and keep a good selection of spells around for different circumstances.

[Amnestic]

This thread somewhat debunks the myth when everyone builds to control, then players look around and wonder who is actually going to finish the fight.

The most powerful condition you can inflict on an enemy is [DEAD].

[MoiMagnus]

The 'mage blasting enemies with elements' is a pretty typical fantasy trope which people like to play, the 'mage pushing/pulling enemies over a grater of spiked stones' does not exist outside D&D, and only exists in D&D because of the mechanics (lots of damage, w00t!). To me it's both less traditional fantasly and almost more slapstick comedy, and I'd totally understand if people would choose not to play in such a way (and that's disregarding that it requirers some system mastery to notice that such a playstyle does more damage).

In other words: it's really weird (and tbh a design flaw) that such a type of casting is better supported and does more damage than "throwing lightning" (or the like), and the default damage spells even being 'something like a trap' is just bad.

Funnily enough, it's more of a martial thing in fantasy to push/pull peoples into spikes or environmental hazards.
Sure, it's "superhero" martial, but D&D is missing the "I strike you with so much strength that you're projected through the walls and suffer massive damage from the environment (while destroying said environment)".

Especially given that 5e allows movement between multiple attacks, it's kind of sad that it's not a default effect of bludgeoning weapons (including fists) to push around peoples, and that this kind of effect is left to spellcasters.

[Sigreid]

Hm, so you stuffed them with magic items... that can work, but I wonder how to increase the spellcaster's damage with magic items.

My experience is that spellcasters are not fantastic at single target damage against tough foes. The price they have to pay in spell slots is too high for the damage done most of the time. What they excel at on combat is obliterating masses of low to mid hp mobs and restricting who on the other side gets to fight for a few rounds. On a volleyball team, they'd be the setter to sets up so the single target damage specialists can spike the ball. I'd move more of the encounters to being things like demons supported by masses of cultists and fewer being masses of fairly powerful demons, for example. I mean, 5 vrock can wipe out a fairly sizable military force if they can get to them.

[RazorChain]

Just time, yeah. Like, I like to run dungeons, but since my group can only do two battles per session max, and harder battles might even take more than a session, a dungeon with 5 or 6 encounters can take 8 sessions to complete, which is almost two months!

So then you must ask yourself why you like to run dungeons? 5e is based upon resource management akin to a computer game mission. You start the dungeon with 100% resources (maybe) and you have to reach the boss to grab the loot while not expending everything before the end battle. This is the structure of the game which gives a sample of how many encounters you should go through on any given adventuring day.

So as the characters go up in level they'll have more and more resources so either you have to have tougher battles or more battles for them to expend their resources.

For me this is maybe the most boring aspect about DnD as grinding through encounters doesn't usually serve the narrative in any meaningful way. What I usually do is have few but tough battles and I'm not particularly fond of dungeon crawls in general.

So the big question is why are you running dungeon crawls that mainly focus on combat encounters if you aren't enjoying it? If you are enjoying it then why are you complaining it takes too much time? Because when your PC's finish a combat encounter then they are going to go into the next room in the dungeon and fight in another combat encounter so the speed of the encounter doesn't matter when you just go into the next one.


But to solve your problem from a game design standpoint.

A)Just reduce the monster HP by half and let them do double damage.
B) Reduce everybody both PC's and monster HP by half
C) Double everybodies damage.

[Segev]

Are you factoring in reckless attack granting advantage on attack rolls when you figure the -5 to hit on GWM only adds +3 damage? If so, are you running high-AC monsters, generally? That will tend to limit damage more than you might expect.

[Kane0]

This thread somewhat debunks the myth when everyone builds to control, then players look around and wonder who is actually going to finish the fight.


I once played in an all-wizard oneshot and that is exactly what it was like.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Are you factoring in reckless attack granting advantage on attack rolls when you figure the -5 to hit on GWM only adds +3 damage? If so, are you running high-AC monsters, generally? That will tend to limit damage more than you might expect.

It’s exactly what I would question. A PAM GWM Barbarian reckless attacking all the time at level 14 with STR 18 has an avg DPR of 46.2 against AC 19 creatures. Without considering the increased frequency of OAs thanks to PAM.

[strangebloke]

Its just a question of optimization and build, honestly. You'd say that something like a bard is low-damage, conventionally, but then they cast animate objects and suddenly OH BOY they definitely are not low damage. Paladins are universally high damage because of smite, bless, and various other abilities, but you might not have one in the party. A conventional rogue has pretty mediocre damage, but a melee rogue getting a reaction attack more rounds than not is dealing a lot of damage. Clerics aren't exactly "explosive" in damage, but then you remember that Tempest Domain and Zeal Domain exist and suddenly Mr. Monster is eating 48 damage to face. Or at high levels you have summon celestial.

Ultimately the difference between an optimized sharpshooter samurai with magic item support and a basic S&B champion is like a factor of 4 or 5 or something. It's pretty huge. The difference between a flame arrow/witchbolt wizard and a nuke wizard is much larger. Druid damage is much worse without summons. etc. So its easy to see that depending on optimization your monsters will either have WAY TOO MUCH hp or WAY TOO LITTLE hp.

(Monster damage is way harder to tune in imo, since the squishiness of party members can vary WILDLY)

My basic advice:

taking a -5 to attack and a +10 to damage is best as a universal rule that can be applied to all weapon attacks. This means that everyone can go TWF or melee monk or whatever without feeling they're missing out on damage. Sharpshooter and GWM become half feats to compensate.
Magic weapons are good and do a lot to increase the threat level of characters who primarily rely on attacks for damage, whereas otherwise the best means of damage-dealing tend to be summons. They are fun, they make the characters feel more "special" relative to normal NPCs. Include magic weapons in your game.
Give STR builds a boost to speed since such characters (clerics, melee fighters) tend to rely on being close to the enemy to deal damage, so a lack of mobility can be really punishing for them. I have a houserule that goes "16 STR gives +10 walking speed, 20 STR gives an additional +5 movement speed."
Mix up the threat profile as much as possible. Have a swarm of dodge tanking willowisps one session, have a bunch of bruiser shambling mounds the next, have a trio of wolf-riding assassins kiting the party after that. Throw a low-hp high-threat enemy like a mindflayer arcanist at the party. Have a narrow corridor fight against a roper, then next have a huge theatre-of-the-mind field battle with distances of 200 or 300 feet.
All the 'conjure' spells and animate objects have various options for summoning large numbers of creatures - disallow the highest number of possible summons. Conjure animals is really good if you're just summoning a couple giant octupi or whatever, but the elk swarm (or the tiny pebble swarm from animate objects) is a bit too good.


I once played in an all-wizard oneshot and that is exactly what it was like.

Its an attitude that is carried over from previous editions imo. A lot of control options allow repeat saves, high level enemies have resistance, high save modifiers, or worse legendary saves. Casting fear might take out half the enemies but they might come back later. Ultimately you do have to kill the bad guys. I think a control caster tends to be really strong and "martial-friendly" since you're not trying to steal their thunder, but I think an 'optimal' caster is typically going to pack a lot of conjuration and blasting spells too.

[LudicSavant]

Its just a question of optimization and build, honestly. You'd say that something like a bard is low-damage, conventionally, but then they cast animate objects and suddenly OH BOY they definitely are not low damage. Paladins are universally high damage because of smite, bless, and various other abilities, but you might not have one in the party. A conventional rogue has pretty mediocre damage, but a melee rogue getting a reaction attack more rounds than not is dealing a lot of damage. Clerics aren't exactly "explosive" in damage, but then you remember that Tempest Domain and Zeal Domain exist and suddenly Mr. Monster is eating 48 damage to face. Or at high levels you have summon celestial.

Ultimately the difference between an optimized sharpshooter samurai with magic item support and a basic S&B champion is like a factor of 4 or 5 or something. It's pretty huge. The difference between a flame arrow/witchbolt wizard and a nuke wizard is much larger. Druid damage is much worse without summons. etc. So its easy to see that depending on optimization your monsters will either have WAY TOO MUCH hp or WAY TOO LITTLE hp.



This. Tactics and build make a vast difference. You can see clear speeds that aren't just faster, but several *times* faster.

[Marcloure]

It’s exactly what I would question. A PAM GWM Barbarian reckless attacking all the time at level 14 with STR 18 has an avg DPR of 46.2 against AC 19 creatures. Without considering the increased frequency of OAs thanks to PAM.

PAM + GWM is another beast entirely, my comparison was only Dual-Wielder vs GWM. And yes, I did take the advantage and the -5 into consideration.

[MoiMagnus]

Some groups are not interested in faster.
I wonder, Do the players from the Original Post want to ‘kill things faster’, or does just the DM?

And it's not just whether they want faster killing or not. They might not even accept those optimizations as legit.

You all know that some GM have some knee jerk reactions against the players optimizating in some ways and will rush to their ban-hammer, and while a few are hypocrites, the others will restrain themselves as players.

In particular, if you can somehow manage to use your spell slots to do more damage than the all the spells that are specialised to deal damage (that is blast spells), some players will consider it unacceptable/cheating.

[Segev]

PAM + GWM is another beast entirely, my comparison was only Dual-Wielder vs GWM. And yes, I did take the advantage and the -5 into consideration.

What AC are you assuming?

[Marcloure]

What AC are you assuming?

I can't remeber exactly, but it was a quick average I took from monsters CR 10–14, which was around 17 iirc.

[Marcloure]

And it's not just whether they want faster killing or not. They might not even accept those optimizations as legit.

You all know that some GM have some knee jerk reactions against the players optimizating in some ways and will rush to their ban-hammer, and while a few are hypocrites, the others will restrain themselves as players.

In particular, if you can somehow manage to use your spell slots to do more damage than the all the spells that are specialised to deal damage (that is blast spells), some players will consider it unacceptable/cheating.

They do want to deal more damage, but they don't want to play a summoner. The druid specially, which I guess is the class that depends the most on summons to deal damage in 5e.

[LudicSavant]

They do want to deal more damage, but they don't want to play a summoner. The druid specially, which I guess is the class that depends the most on summons to deal damage in 5e.

Try hazard combos on the druid.