[3.5] Defense Against the Dark Arts

[Thurbane]

So, purely theoretical build.

You see some talk about building "wizard slayer" mundanes, but not really looking for that.

How would you build a mundane character that is focused primarily on resisting spells and spell effects? No emphasis on being able to attack or disable casters, only withstanding spells.

For this exercise, "mundane" would be a non-caster, and ideally not using psionics, SLAs, Binding, Incarnum etc. either. the less Sp and Su abilities, the better really. (Some) reliance on items is OK.

As far as I can tell, here's the main categories needed in resisting spells (let me know if I've missed anything obvious):


SR (ineffective against a lot of spells, especially Conjuration); would also include things like Spell Reflection etc.
Good saves (especially Will and fort; Mettle and Evasion are also nice. Re-rolls also a bonus)
Immunities/resistances (the more immunities, the better really. Being Undead or a Construct gets a lot of immunities, but has downsides as well)
High touch AC (defense against rays, Orbs etc.); this might be the hardest for a mundane character to achieve

..so, if you were to build a 3.5 character with the main emphasis being able to withstand spell attacks, how would you do it? Standard WBL, 32 point buy, and lets try to limit races with high LA. LA +0 preferred, but +1 or +2 at a pinch.

All input welcome.

Cheers - T

[Gruftzwerg]

Well, lets start with the obvious choices here:

Monk: 3 good saves + SR

Add Hide + Darkstalker

And (Imp.) Evasion takes care of the AoE spells a caster might try to use against the monk he probably can't see/sense.

[Maat Mons]

Another class that can have good saves is Barbarian. Good Fort save progression, plus bonus Con while Raging. Bad Will save progression, but +4 morale bonus to Will saves while Raging, and Steadfast determination lets you use your Con for Will saves, which means they'll benefit from the bonus Con that Rage gives. Devil's Luck (Dragon 349, p92) trades Barbarian's DR for a scaling luck bonus on all saves, capping out at +5 pre-epic.

Paladin, Hexblade, and Blackguard are all classes that give Cha to saves. If you use one of the evil Paladin variants, you can benefit from all three at once.

Warblades have access to those maneuvers that substitute a Concentration check for a save, though they take immediate actions to activate, and you need to refresh them before they're available to use again.

If you're willing to have a power point reserve of at least 1 point, there's a feat that can let you add your armor's AC bonus to touch AC.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Addition stuff you want: high hp! Don't overlook high HP! Evasion! Mettle! Immunities!

You also want the ability to reroll saves. Your minimum failure chance is 5%. Rerolling 1s is the most valuable thing you can get past a certain point. The good news is that once upon a time there was an incredibly good, comprehensive guide to this concept. The bad news is that the guide's author, Sunic Flames of the old Brilliant Gameologists board, had the thinnest skin ever seen on the internet, and after being asked one too many questions he referred to all his interlocutors as 'failsons' and deleted his guide. However, many of the resources still exist, and new ones were created after:


Iterative Probability and Multi-Layer Defenses: https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6131
The Fail Class Guide to IP-Proofing for Classes below Tier 2: https://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11185
The Evasion Index: https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=15704
The Mettle Index: https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10506
The Immunities Handbook: https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=14991


Start with Iterative Probability, and work through from there.

[AvatarVecna]

Steadfast Determination has already been mentioned, but only one benefit of it. Making your Will saves Con-based is pretty nice, but not auto-failing Fort saves on a nat 1 is also pretty great if you're pumping saves sky-high anyway.

A good multiclass build would do you wonders. Getting that lvl 1 bump more than once, and ideally a whole bunch, will skyrocket your saves more than just about anything else you can think of. Monk 2 on any build is +3 to saves, Wis to Touch AC out of armor, and evasion.

Pride Domain lets you reroll nat 1s on saving throws. Cleric is a caster class, so that's off limits, but you can buy domain draughts (MIC) to replicate the effect short-term, or spend feats/skill points/gp to get Planar Touchstone: Catalogues Of Enlightenment (Pride) as something a bit more long-term.

[Saintheart]

Small contribution, but Wall of Blades is a nice, low-level maneuver and can be easily put in item form given the rules around creating items of martial maneuvers in ToB.

Since it applies to any melee or ranged attack, that includes touch attacks, or even ranged touch attacks. You use the higher of your attack roll or your AC as your AC, in effect, which potentially neutralises the touch AC problem. Swatting Rays of Dizziness aside with your sword is awesome.

EDIT: Also, just logging, but Karsites are LA +2. Can't cast arcane or divine spells, but can still use items etc., and they get SR 10 + class levels.

EDIT THE SECOND: More generally, getting touch AC higher can be achieved by multiple sources of dodge bonuses since unlike a lot of bonus types they stack -- and apply to touch AC while Armor and Shield bonuses don't. Combat Expertise is a start, total defense, Dodge itself (ugh), and so on.

[Maat Mons]

Since you mentioned immunities in general and constructs in particular, I guess I should point out Warforged Juggernaut. It gives you a few of the immunities constructs enjoy without giving up your Con score. Though, it's status as nonmagical is questionably, since warforged, like all constructs, are created via magic.

What I regard as a better way of gaining immunities, though, is Paladin. Paladin of Freedom gives you immunity to Compulsions at level 3. You have to give up the standard Paladins immunity to fear, but there's a regional feat that you can use instead to get fear immunity. Aura of Sanctity (Dragon 349, p93) gives you immunity to death effects at level 4. You have to give up the standard Paladin's Turn Undead, but you wanted to avoid supernatural abilities anyway.

[Saintheart]

Speaking of Paladin/Hexblade/Blackguard CHA to saves -- Evil's Blessing from Exemplars of Evil. For evil characters, as a standard action, lasting 5 rounds, you get a profane bonus to all saves equal to CHA. Which therefore should stack with the class features of a Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade/Blackguard. And doubles if you smack someone with a G in their alignment.

[Anthrowhale]

A high touch AC is possible via Allied Defense + Improved Combat Expertise.

Bariaur is LA+1 with scaling SR. Adding in a one level of Forsaker makes them nigh-immune to level appropriate magic.

The Diamond Mind maneuvers can be quite handy for saves.

Taking many different classes increases saves faster than any one class.

[Doctor Despair]

Since you mentioned immunities in general and constructs in particular, I guess I should point out Warforged Juggernaut. It gives you a few of the immunities constructs enjoy without giving up your Con score. Though, it's status as nonmagical is questionably, since warforged, like all constructs, are created via magic.

Along this train of thought, for a non-caster tank, I have been enjoying Ranger 5 / Maquar Crusader 1 / MoMF 7 / Warforged Juggernaut 5 / MoMF 2, taking the last level at 21.

Champion of the Wild and Urban Companion (both at Ranger 4) get you Expertise and Alertness which fill a ton of the prereqs for Maquar Crusader and WJuggernaut natively.

At 13, you can wildshape into a war troll for decent SR, regeneration, and super high con (pairs well with Steadfast Determination). Then, at 15, you get immunity to nonlethal damage, meaning you're really only subject to acid damage (which you can cover with an item).

As you noted, further levels in Warforged Juggernaut pick up even more immunities. Meanwhile, the Maquar Crusader level lets you protect your most valuable ally and make your resistances mean something.

[SirNibbles]

Divine Denial (Exemplars of Evil, page 24) gives you +2 to saves vs divine spells and makes it so that spells with no save allow you to make a Will save to negate.

A Ranger (with Favored Enemy: Arcanists) and Wise to Your Ways (Ghostwalk, page 39) would get a bonus to saves against SLAs and Su abilities from anyone who can cast arcane spells, which may not always overlap but may be useful nonetheless.

[Vizzerdrix]

I'm super tired so proper sentence structure is going right out the window.

I would go with a high Cha build. Battledancer 1 pally of freedom 2 for that cha to as many things as 3 levels will get me. It has been a long time since I even looked at a book but I think you can ditch any spell casting from pally for a few feats or something. Then either a squid lycanthrope, or wild shape ranger into Master of many forms. Ideally wiggle into daggerspell shaper for the ability to add magic dagger abilities to natural attacks (in this case I want sudden stunning). The desired end product is to be a flea or mosquito with the ability to stun what you bite. Not sure if we can go that small but it is the goal. Top it off with a fight against that critter from BoED that is a copy of you sent by the gods (name begins with an A) to get some SR and extra wis (for shapesand abuse).

It took me 4 hours to write this. I'm going to bed. Good night.

[Crake]

There’s that one feat that lets you add shield AC to your touch AC, combines nicely with using a tower shield for cover against a bunch of abilities

[Inevitability]

It technically meets the definition of 'mundane', so... non-undead incorporeal? Unlike undead you don't wink out in an AMF, and in fact become all but immortal. Your main concern at this point becomes orbs of force and maybe summoned monsters, but stacking every single source of charisma to AC in addition to the one you already have should cover for a lot.

[Maat Mons]

It may be worth noting that Rules Compendium says incorporeal creatures disappear in an Antimagic Field, without specifying undead.

[Shadowquad]

One particularly efficient path that hasn't been mentioned yet is an initiator with focus on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart.
Diamond Mind has counters that allow you to replace a saving throw with a Concentration check, while avoiding automatic failure on a natural 1. As skill checks scale notoriously faster than saves, this would be a great addition to any build. It also has Stance of Alacrity, which allows you one free counter per turn.
Iron Heart has the infamous Iron Heart Surge, which even with conservative readings allows you to mitigate a lot of otherwise unavoidable spell effects, like BFC conjurations. It also has a counter that lets you replace your AC with the result of an attack roll.

[Twurps]

There’s that one feat that lets you add shield AC to your touch AC, combines nicely with using a tower shield for cover against a bunch of abilities

There's 2 actually:
-Parrying shield (LoM)
-Shield ward (PH2)

Shield ward has an extra prereq, but also offers additional goodies which aren't all that relevant vs casters.

I used this in combination with the 'Sanctified one' PrC once. All good saves and the ability to add your class level to your shield bonus. Only works if you worship Wee Jas and don't have an Armor bonus, but those are usually useless vs casters anyway.

[Paragon]

1 - Crusader 1 - Great Fortitude, Lightening Reflexes (Race Bonus or Flaw) Iron Will (Flaw or Otyugh Hole) // Crusader's Strike, Bolstering Voice (+2 Will), Charging Minotaur, Leading the Charge, Douse the Flames
2 - Forsaker 1
3 - Forsaker 2 - Mage Slayer
4 - Forsaker 3
5 - Forsaker 4
6 - Forsaker 5 - Improved Initiative
7 - Forsaker 6
8 - Crusader 2 // Thicket of Blades
9 - Forsaker 7 - Weapon Focus (X)
10 - Forsaker 8
11 - Forsaker 9
12 - Forsaker 10 - Blind Fight
13 - Witch Slayer 1
14 - Witch Slayer 2
15 - Witch Slayer 3 - Pierce Magical Concealment
16 - Witch Slayer 4
17 - Witch Slayer 5
18 - Occult Slayer 1 - Martial Study/Stance (5th level, IL10)
19 - Occult Slayer 2
20 - Occult Slayer 3

Crusader gives Know (Religion) and Forsaker has Sense Motive for Witch Slayer. The latter has Know (Arcana) & Spellcraft for Occult Slayer.

Abilities :
Full BAB, Good Fort & Will, Bad Ref
Cha to Will Saves
SR 20, +1x10 to ability scores, Fast Healing (50 hp max), DR 11/+5
Slippery Mind (Twice...), Con to AC (nat armor), Mettle, Saving Throw bonuses, Mind over Magic (spell turning), Weapon Bond and Vicious Strike (more damage if you ready to hit a spellcaster when he casts)

You could of course take less Forsaker to have more Occult Slayer (lvl 4 gets you permanent nondetection & lvl 5 is permanent Mindblank).

[Gruftzwerg]

4 - Crusader 2 // Thicket of Blades


Thicket of Blades is a 3rd lvl maneuver, which requires you to have 5 Initiatorlevel as Crusader.
Thus you would need to delay your 2nd lvl of Crusader to lvl 8.

[Chronos]

Of note, Hexblade both gets Cha to saves vs. spells, and is also the quickest way to get Mettle. So three levels of Hexblade is almost certainly worthwhile.

Also a couple of amusing notes about Mettle: First, it's very effective against the Orb spells (Orb of Fire, etc.), since they're all listed as "Fort partial": Make the save against the secondary effect, and you also negate the damage. Second, it's also a counter to Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation, since disbelief is a Will save that decreases the effect of the spell, and so on a successful save, those spells now do nothing at all, instead of a percentage of their normal effect.

[Paragon]

Thicket of Blades is a 3rd lvl maneuver, which requires you to have 5 Initiatorlevel as Crusader.
Thus you would need to delay your 2nd lvl of Crusader to lvl 8.

Thanks for the catch. Edited in the original post

[Biggus]

There's also the Indomitable Soul feat (PHB2 p.80) which enables you to roll twice and take the better on all will saves against mind-affecting and fear effects. On the downside, it requires Endurance and Iron Will to take.

Edit: there's also the luck feats in CSco, of which Dumb Luck and Survivor's Luck are the most relevant, although Advantageous Avoidance, Third Time's the Charm and Unbelievable Luck could also be useful if you can afford the feats.

Oh, there are some items which allow rerolls: Phaant's Luckstones (GW p.72), Mantle of Second Chances (MIC p.115), Ring of Nine Lives (MIC p.126). And if you can get access to the Luck domain via Domain Draughts etc, that's another one.

[Ramza00]

No one has mentioned Leadership so far?

You may argue it is against the spirit of the OP…yet the movie score kicks in, the rising spirit, those trumpets, Gonna Fly Nowthe rocky balboa theme
Trying hard now / It's so hard now / Trying hard now /
Oh, he's ready / Gonna make a move, yeah / Oh, he's ready / And makin' moves, yeah / Yeah, yeah /
Getting strong now / Won't be long now / Getting strong now /
Gonna fly now / Flying high now / Gonna fly, fly !

Every boxing monk with a paladin dip and the serenity feat (wis to saves and other paladin abilities) needs a cleric coach (powered by leadership) to help heal after the fight, and provide motivational buffs prior to entering the boxing ring. 🥊

Conviction (1st), Benediction (2nd), Tyche Touch (2nd), Resistance Greater (4th), Resistance Superior (6th) are all nice friend spells that last 10 min a level, or 1 hour a level and give a moral, luck, sacred, and resist bonus to saves. Benediction even has a discharge effect with its luck bonus where you can reroll a result you do not like for saving throws, ability checks, attack rolls, and/or skill checks.
Likewise there are other long 10 min level and 1 hour level buffs to help the boxer with AC, and Attack.
The cleric cohort can be off to the side in real combat doing the emergency “close wounds” as an immediate action to help heal. Not a threat (even has serenity up so enemies have a will save if they want to attack the heal bot) just be there helping and motivating the boxer.
Throw in some eternal wands of quick potion and the cleric can even brew some short duration buffs the boxer can use their own action on in order to trigger like a quick potion of fly or enlarge person.

Gonna Fly Now, continues to play while the boxing monk does the thing.

[Gorthawar]

Small contribution, but Wall of Blades is a nice, low-level maneuver and can be easily put in item form given the rules around creating items of martial maneuvers in ToB.

Since it applies to any melee or ranged attack, that includes touch attacks, or even ranged touch attacks. You use the higher of your attack roll or your AC as your AC, in effect, which potentially neutralises the touch AC problem. Swatting Rays of Dizziness aside with your sword is awesome.

It's even more fun when combined with the spell reflection acf from complete mage.

[Bohandas]

You can by RAW inflate base saves, at the expense of other abilities, by multiclassing a lot for the +2 bonus to good saves at class level 1

[Biggus]

You can by RAW inflate base saves, at the expense of other abilities, by multiclassing a lot for the +2 bonus to good saves at class level 1

...and unlike with casters, multiclassing for martials can often leave you stronger, not weaker as many martial classes are front-loaded. The downside with this is that you'll tend to get a lot of bonuses to your already-strong Fort save and not many to the others where you really need them (in fact, if you're not using fractional saves it will tend to make them lower). There are a few exceptions like the Knight and Ranger though.

[Chronos]

The Binder class (the class itself, not the vestiges, so you can't use prestige classes like Knight of the Sacred Seal) actually gets a fair bit of defenses against magic. Your Pact Augmentation feature gives you a number of bonuses that you can apply as you choose to (among other things) dodge AC, saves, or resistance to energy damage, and your Soul Guardian feature gives you immunity to fear, and eventually immunity to negative energy attacks and to mind-affecting. And you can re-allocate the bonuses every time you bind vestiges (in practice, every day).

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Well, lets start with the obvious choices here:

Monk: 3 good saves + SR

Add Hide + Darkstalker

And (Imp.) Evasion takes care of the AoE spells a caster might try to use against the monk he probably can't see/sense.

Monk actually gets a lot of really good ACFs for this:

Invisible Fist - one round invisibility; kinda handy for evading attacks, but the real nice one is blink which you can keep up indefinitely if your Wis is at least 16, reducing incoming AOE damage and increasing the odds of (most) spells with attack rolls missing.
Darkmoon Disciple - now this is a stealth ability; total concealment in anything other than daylight, and I don't think true seeing or darkvision do a thing against this ability.
Planar Monk - a little bit of energy resistance.
Spell Reflection - reflect rays and other touch attacks back at the caster.
Skarn Monk - nets you a free soulmeld and later chakra bind (arms only). Planar Ward is the best anti-magic one off the top of my head; there are probably better.


You can take almost all of these on a single Monk; you'll need another class with Evasion if you want both Invisible Fist and Spell Reflection. Here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24080559&postcount=51)'s one of my favorite builds, which uses them all except for Skarn Monk (which it could also theoretically take, if you changed the race to Changeling and were willing to lose effectively two feats; not the worst trade, honestly).

[Twurps]

It's even more fun when combined with the spell reflection acf from complete mage.

Wall of blades and Spell reflection both take an immediate action. Without extra hoops to jump through, you get only 1 of those each round.

[Bohandas]

what does ACF stand for? I'm not familiar with that one

[JNAProductions]

what does ACF stand for? I'm not familiar with that one

Alternate Class Feature

[Chronos]

Quoth PoeticallyPsycho:

Skarn Monk - nets you a free soulmeld and later chakra bind (arms only). Planar Ward is the best anti-magic one off the top of my head; there are probably better.
The obvious one would be Spellward Shirt, which gives spell resistance. That said, it's not very much spell resistance: A base of 5 from the meld itself, plus 4 more per point of essentia.

It gets a little better if you can bind it to your heart chakra, because then you can pick four spells of up to 6th level to become completely immune to. Though that depends on knowing what your enemy's favorite spells are, a day or so in advance.