What's the WORST race/class combo?

[Ionathus]

I've seen a lot of discussion about "bad" classes that don't synergize well with a certain PC race. But most of those seem to be "yeah these features won't help each other" rather than being actively detrimental to each other. Mostly I feel like the math of 5e does a decent job of keeping you from hamstringing yourself - no matter what you pick, even if it's suboptimal, you can have a good time if your primary stats are above 10 :smallbiggrin:

But there must be some truly negative combos out there, whose bonuses actively fight against each other or directly hamper the class/subclass/race's whole "thing." Does anyone know of any examples off the bat?

[Amnestic]

A specific reading of Kenku mimicry (one which I do not recommend) makes their casting of verbal spells either outright impossible or at least extremely limited, which means they are terrible spellcasters and especially terrible Clerics (since every Cleric spell has a V component).

It doesn't seem to be RAI though, for obvious reasons.

I don't think there's anything else, since the removal of the negative stat mods on Kobolds.

[Psyren]

There's two answers to this question - depending on whether you're just focusing on current races, or you're including legacy races that have negative stat adjustments and other overt penalties, like a PHB Drow or Volo's Kobold character that will spend all their time outdoors in bright light while built around making attack rolls. (EDIT: Or the Legacy Kenku being unable to utter most verbal components as mentioned above.)

Assuming you mean modern races though, there are fewer ways to make a truly bad combination. One combination that remains bad in the modern game is being any Small race that's built around using Heavy weapons.

[Millstone85]

A specific reading of Kenku mimicry (one which I do not recommend) makes their casting of verbal spells either outright impossible or at least extremely limited, which means they are terrible spellcasters and especially terrible Clerics (since every Cleric spell has a V component).

It doesn't seem to be RAI though, for obvious reasons.

I don't think there's anything else, since the removal of the negative stat mods on Kobolds.And as of MotM, kenku have been freed of the "you can speak only by using your Mimicry trait" line.

[Amnestic]

And as of MotM, kenku have been freed of the "you can speak only by using your Mimicry trait" line.

Ah, nice, glad they changed that to remove the ambiguity of it.

If I had to pick the "worst" race/class combo, I think I'd probably choose any strength-dumping minotaur, since 3/4 of their racial features are based around their strength score. They're still potentially useful, but definitely suboptimal.

[strangebloke]

And as of MotM, kenku have been freed of the "you can speak only by using your Mimicry trait" line.

Hence why the answer here would be "Legacy Kenku." Nothing else even comes close to that.

....Outside of that specific rules interaction, I guess I'd say legacy kobold barbarian? -2 STR right out of the gate, meaning you are paying a premium for a 12 or 13 in your main stat. No two handed weapons because you're small. Pack tactics, but you already had reckless, and now you have sunlight sensitivity. Not "unplayable" but very very sad.

[OldTrees1]

A specific reading of Kenku mimicry (one which I do not recommend) makes their casting of verbal spells either outright impossible or at least extremely limited, which means they are terrible spellcasters and especially terrible Clerics (since every Cleric spell has a V component).

It doesn't seem to be RAI though, for obvious reasons.

I don't think there's anything else, since the removal of the negative stat mods on Kobolds.

Oh tricky. In the case of Kenku Clerics and Wizards I assume they could mimic the verbal components they heard when taught the spell (assuming the RP assumption of being taught prayers/invocations is compatible with your character and the world).

Species with Sunlight Sensitivity / martial Cleric of the sun might be another detrimental "race/class/character" combo. However the detriment derives almost entirely from the interesting characterization rather than the actual class.

All in all, 5E species are not diverse enough to have antisynergies between species and class.


Edit: Now I am just thinking about a Gelatinous Cube / Assassin or a Snail / Monk.

[Theodoxus]

This feels like a challenge for LudicSavant...

But yeah, post Tasha's and MotM, things might be suboptimal; a Mountain Dwarf melee Fighter having no use for Medium Armor proficiency nor not being slowed in Heavy Armor, or a Goblin Rogue getting no benefit of Nimble Escape after 1st level, but not actually detrimental. So, the WORST would be pretty subjective as to how many abilities are redundant rather than anti-synergistic.

[strangebloke]

This feels like a challenge for LudicSavant...

But yeah, post Tasha's and MotM, things might be suboptimal; a Mountain Dwarf melee Fighter having no use for Medium Armor proficiency nor not being slowed in Heavy Armor, or a Goblin Rogue getting no benefit of Nimble Escape after 1st level, but not actually detrimental. So, the WORST would be pretty subjective as to how many abilities are redundant rather than anti-synergistic.

Post Tashas the worst is going to be one of the races that never got a re-release and has lackluster base mechanics. So something like Drow Barbarian. Can't cast the racial spells when raging. Sunlight sensitivity.

going to stick with legacy kenku cleric for legacy races if V spells are disallowed, or kobold barbarian if V spells are allowed.

[Psyren]

One modern example I can think of is a Plasmoid martial that's heavily dependent on its gear. You can function just fine, but there's antisynergy between equipment-based builds and their Amorphous Trait since they have to leave their gear behind when squeezing. Gear-agnostic builds like casters or monks work better for them.


Oh tricky. In the case of Kenku Clerics and Wizards I assume they could mimic the verbal components they heard when taught the spell (assuming the RP assumption of being taught prayers/invocations is compatible with your character and the world).

Wizards learn from scrolls though - there's nothing for a Legacy Kenku to "hear."

[Keravath]

One modern example I can think of is a Plasmoid martial that's heavily dependent on its gear. You can function just fine, but there's antisynergy between equipment-based builds and their Amorphous Trait since they have to leave their gear behind when squeezing. Gear-agnostic builds like casters or monks work better for them.



Wizards learn from scrolls though - there's nothing for a Legacy Kenku to "hear."

If wizards can learn from a scroll then the scroll needs to contain detailed information on the sounds that need to be made to cast the spell - intonation/volume/emphasis - no wizard, let alone a Kenku could learn a spell from a scroll unless all verbal components are flexible enough in interpretation that they can just be written down. In that case a Kenku can likely take bits and pieces of the very wide range of sounds and words they have already heard to come up with a passable verbal rendition of whatever is written.

If the sounds can't be accurately represented on a scroll then all wizards would need to be taught the exact sounds needed to cast any spell via direct instruction.

My interpretation is that the VSM components needed to cast a specific spell allow for some variation in their execution while still retaining the ability to cast the spell. This is consistent with every wizards inscription of spells being different and in their own notation. However, that isn't RAW, just how I run it :).

[nickl_2000]

How about an Aarakocra with a heavy armor wearer (Paladin, Fighter, War Cleric, etc). You lose the main point of your race to optimize for your class/style.

The only other thing I can think of is a caster race with a barbarian.

[OldTrees1]

Oh tricky. In the case of Kenku Clerics and Wizards I assume they could mimic the verbal components they heard when taught the spell (assuming the RP assumption of being taught prayers/invocations is compatible with your character and the world).

Wizards learn from scrolls though - there's nothing for a Legacy Kenku to "hear."

Wizards that are taught could hear the verbal component even if they study their textbooks (scrolls) later. As I said:


Oh tricky. In the case of Kenku Clerics and Wizards I assume they could mimic the verbal components they heard when taught the spell (assuming the RP assumption of being taught prayers/invocations is compatible with your character and the world).

A claim that Clerics are never taught the prayers they know would be a claim specific to a specific campaign you are running and one already covered by the qualifiers in my post. The same goes with Wizards under even the strictest reading of Mimicry. If the above RP of the character being taught is compatible with the character and the world, then it is an option.


How about an Aarakocra with a heavy armor wearer (Paladin, Fighter, War Cleric, etc). You lose the main point of your race to optimize for your class/style.

The only other thing I can think of is a caster race with a barbarian.

Oh an Aarakocraan Auradin using lighter armor and finesse/ranged weapons would be interesting. You don't need the heavy armor.

[Rukelnikov]

There's a couple of race/class combinations where the race may as well not be giving you anything, but there are few races with drawbacks outside of the already mentioned small size and heavy weapons, but heavy weapons are not a class, you could be a small sized barbarian and dual weild or go sword and board, so small+heavy is not really a bad race class combo but a bad race weapon type pairing.

Then there's sunlight sensitivity, Fighter is probably the class hit the hardest by it, Rogue may be locked into commiting BA and movement every turn in order to steady aim and attack an enemy adjacent to an ally, but Rogues usually have more OoC opportunities to use their skillset than Fighters, and Barbarian can at least choose to Reckless attack turning sunlight sensitivity from disadv to attack into advantage for enemies attacking him, fighter doesn't have that choice.

Centaur is a worse climber than most and depending on DM may have a harder time finding suitable armor.

Thri-Kreen will also probably have a harder time finding armor, and not being able to speak is likely to range from a hurdle, like having trouble communicating in small settlements cause people freaks out when you speak telepathically to them, to a real problem, the mcguffin activation word is in draconic, to a wonder if I really wanna play this, if the DM says something like "you can't learn spells with V component from non thri kreen wizards cause you can't pronounce it" (I don't think the ruling is correct, becuase the idea is that you study a scroll or book to understand how the magic is working and then adapt it to your own style, it would make sense if you were trying to cast from a scroll for a spell you don't know, in that case you wouldn't be able to "follow the instructions" cause you can't replicate the V component, and you don't know the spell)

There may be some combination that fails because of creature type? Maybe a sub with a feature that targets humanoids on one of the few nonhumanoid races preventing you from targeting yourself? Would have to comb the subs searching for that, and I don't feel like that right now, but there are some spells that care.

Simulacrum is beast or humanoid only, if you are the kind of person that uses this spell, and likes using it on yourself, then being a non-humanoid may be a problem (unless you change body via magic jar or something), though any build that has and uses Simulacrum almost by definition can't be the worst, since it could have a copy of most other builds (save for those pesky nonhumanoids!)

[nickl_2000]

Also, not mechanically that bad, but a Gith Fathomless Warlock just seems off.

When you have a race that hates things with tentacled faces, making a pact with a tentacled eldritch power just doesn't seem right.

[Psyren]

If wizards can learn from a scroll then the scroll needs to contain detailed information on the sounds that need to be made to cast the spell - intonation/volume/emphasis - no wizard, let alone a Kenku could learn a spell from a scroll unless all verbal components are flexible enough in interpretation that they can just be written down. In that case a Kenku can likely take bits and pieces of the very wide range of sounds and words they have already heard to come up with a passable verbal rendition of whatever is written.

If you argue they can do that, then they can read and learn how to say any new words without having heard them using the library of existing sounds they know, that's literally what an alphabet is. I'd go further to say that doing that would require creativity that Legacy Kenku canonically don't possess.


How about an Aarakocra with a heavy armor wearer (Paladin, Fighter, War Cleric, etc). You lose the main point of your race to optimize for your class/style.

The only other thing I can think of is a caster race with a barbarian.

Yeah, Aarakocra/Owlin + Heavy Armor is a good example of antisynergy.

[Wintermoot]

How about an Aarakocra with a heavy armor wearer (Paladin, Fighter, War Cleric, etc).

Sam the Eagle dressed as a paladin disagrees.

[nickl_2000]

Sam the Eagle dressed as a paladin disagrees.

Sam the American Eagle Dressed as a Paladin disagrees with pretty much everything that players and PCs are doing, or at least disproves of it. :smallbiggrin:

Also, did you know that underneath their armor and feathers, Aarakocras are absolutely naked! *looks down and eyes go wide*

[Luccan]

If we count the original Volo's version of Orc, an Orc Wizard could be pretty bad. The designers somehow came to the idea that keeping a stat penalty for 2 races in the entire game was a good idea. With the hit to Int the original VGtM Orc became easily the worst choice for a Wizard. Their original racial abilities also left something to be desired: they basically just had Powerful Build and Aggressive. The first is largely immaterial and the second isn't good for casters that primarily stay out of combat. About the only thing the original Orc had going for it in regards to a squishy caster was a Con bonus, something other races have as well

This should also be contrasted with the Kobold, who while having a penalty to Strength and Sunlight Sensitivity, also had two powerful racial abilities in Pack Tactics and Grovel Cower and Beg (name aside, it generates advantage for all allies attacking enemies near you, that's crazy good). Arguably, the original Kobold could.make for a better Str-based Frontline Warrior than the original Orc could as a Squishy Wizard.

For unrevised races, I think Half-Orcs don't really benefit from their racial abilities as much if they aren't melee warrior types. Savage Attacks doesn't apply at all without making melee weapon attacks, so that's pretty bad. But really it's hard to name a "worst" because 5e doesn't really punish you for building non-standard characters the way previous editions would

Edit: ignore the last paragraph, people have pointed out some really silly ways to make your build awful (I particularly like the Drow Barbarian)

[Psyren]

For unrevised races, I think Half-Orcs don't really benefit from their racial abilities as much if they aren't melee warrior types. Savage Attacks doesn't apply at all without making melee weapon attacks, so that's pretty bad. But really it's hard to name a "worst" because 5e doesn't really punish you for building non-standard characters the way previous editions would.

You can also make decent use of it on a gish build. Savage Attacks applies to spells that count as melee weapon attacks, such as Shadow Blade and Shillelagh, so it's not like you have to avoid being a caster entirely to benefit.

[LudicSavant]

This feels like a challenge for LudicSavant...

But yeah, post Tasha's and MotM, things might be suboptimal; a Mountain Dwarf melee Fighter having no use for Medium Armor proficiency nor not being slowed in Heavy Armor, or a Goblin Rogue getting no benefit of Nimble Escape after 1st level, but not actually detrimental. So, the WORST would be pretty subjective as to how many abilities are redundant rather than anti-synergistic.
I feel like the other posters pretty much nailed it already. Legacy Volo's had some pretty atrocious stuff, and the poorly defined inability to be creative could leave kenku with a severe disability. I'd say that takes the cake. Short of that, you'll wanna look for a race that lends virtually nothing or worse yet, less than nothing to your build, such as Sunlight Sensitivity on a heavily Attack-reliant character in a sun drenched adventure.

[Spore]

Not bad but a Goliath rogue.

You get nothing to support a sneaky playstyle, your inherenr size makes It more difficult to hide and crawl through right spaces and If you want to so a grapple build to make use of your Athletics you are grappled too.

[Ionathus]

Thanks everyone for your answers! As I suspected, now that race traits are almost entirely positive, there aren't a lot of actively detrimental ones. Very fun to see what people can come up with to beat that though.


Species with Sunlight Sensitivity / martial Cleric of the sun might be another detrimental "race/class/character" combo. However the detriment derives almost entirely from the interesting characterization rather than the actual class.

Oh, this is amazing. I'm stealing this.

Meepo the Kobold Light Cleric uses her Radiance of the Dawn, fills the room with bright lights, immediately regrets it :smallbiggrin:

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Not counting Legacy? The only ones that stand out to me would be:

Any Small Race that wants to wield two handed weapons.

Any Race with significant Bonus Actions with a Two Weapon build or other build that also extensively uses Bonus Actions. (Stumbled on this one when I was toying with the idea of a Hobgoblin Two Weapon Ranger and then went... Wait... I can attack or help, but .. Darn it, back to the drawing board).

[OldTrees1]

Oh, this is amazing. I'm stealing this.

Meepo the Kobold Light Cleric uses her Radiance of the Dawn, fills the room with bright lights, immediately regrets it :smallbiggrin:

Enjoy! :smallbiggrin:

[GooeyChewie]

If I had to pick the "worst" race/class combo, I think I'd probably choose any strength-dumping minotaur, since 3/4 of their racial features are based around their strength score. They're still potentially useful, but definitely suboptimal.

Agreed, from personal experience. I looked into making a minotaur warlock recently, because I felt like Baphomet would make a perfect patron for such a character. Even with special permission to go Hexblade and consider my horns to be Hex Warrior weapon, it was really bad. I ended up throwing that character out and going a completely different route.

[Witty Username]

For the most part the worst you can get is nothing, however nothing can be pretty bad for some.

Monk for example, is ability score dependent for base function. A race without a dex or wis bonus will hamper the character moreso than most.
Mountain dwarf would probably be the worst prior to dedicated weapon as a monk option, as of now, I am not sure, I would guess PHB dragonborn because the breath weapon is pretty weak.
(Ooh, actually minotaur monk, that hurts)

Use the Tasha's floating ASI rules, they smooth over alot of this as a potential problem.

[CTurbo]

Not bad but a Goliath rogue.

You get nothing to support a sneaky playstyle, your inherenr size makes It more difficult to hide and crawl through right spaces and If you want to so a grapple build to make use of your Athletics you are grappled too.

When GGtR came out, a guy I played with built 2 different Loxodon characters. A Thief Rogue and an Open Hand Monk. He ended up playing the Rogue, and even though the character was created from silly, he played it straight and it was hilarious. I don't remember what his name was, but his friends called him Twinkle Toes because of how graceful he was lol. Of course he had Expertise in Stealth and Sleight of Hand and I think maybe both Athletics and Acrobatics.

[Rukelnikov]

When GGtR came out, a guy I played with built 2 different Loxodon characters. A Thief Rogue and an Open Hand Monk. He ended up playing the Rogue, and even though the character was created from silly, he played it straight and it was hilarious. I don't remember what his name was, but his friends called him Twinkle Toes because of how graceful he was lol. Of course he had Expertise in Stealth and Sleight of Hand and I think maybe both Athletics and Acrobatics.

That sounds awesome, hope he picked expertise in disguise at 6 :smallbiggrin:

[Polyphemus]

If I had to pick the "worst" race/class combo, I think I'd probably choose any strength-dumping minotaur, since 3/4 of their racial features are based around their strength score. They're still potentially useful, but definitely suboptimal.

Honestly minotaurs of any class suffer from having so much of their racial features revolve around the horns.
Most martials, it's almost entirely situational, maybe you'll get off the bonus action attack with them on the approach? If you're a ranged or finesse build, it's basically an emergency weapon you don't have to draw...except it keys off Strength, not Dex. Maybe you could get some use out of the shove Hammering Horns has, but I've never been able to make that work in an actual combat to my satisfaction.
If you're a Monk, they can at least give you a bigger damage die to use, since I believe they count as unarmed strikes as of MotM? But then the Martial Arts die go up and then they're basically cosmetic, except, again, sometimes getting off a bonus action attack with them on the approach...
And then for pretty much all the casters they're once again at best emergency weapons in a stat you're probably not using for most builds.

Like, I've played a minotaur before, but I played a minotaur for the sake of being a minotaur, not for the horns. Er, racial features. Same thing, really.
In my experience being a minotaur, except in very specific situations, is almost a cosmetic choice more than anything, and probably strictly worse than most other available options.

Hell, at least with Mountain Dwarf Fighters, Tasha's rules let you swap out all those redundant proficiencies for tools and the like, so you can be weirdly handy in some ways, or maybe pick up an instrument or two, I dunno. That at leasts adds some texture or characterization, there.

Minotaurs, they mechanically feel like they begin and end with the horns. It's frustrating. :smallannoyed:

[Kane0]

My first immediate thought was Aasimar Necromancer.

[Yakmala]

Sea Elf or Triton Fathomless Warlock. Fathomless provides a swim speed, the ability to breathe underwater, cold resistance and the ability to communicate with creatures in the water, all of which you already have as racial abilities.

[RogueJK]

It's a legacy race + quasi-official class combo, but a VGtM Scourge Aasimar Blood Hunter seems like a recipe for suicide. Racial ability that damages yourself, plus a class whose abilities rely on damaging yourself.

[DomesticHausCat]

A specific reading of Kenku mimicry (one which I do not recommend) makes their casting of verbal spells either outright impossible or at least extremely limited, which means they are terrible spellcasters and especially terrible Clerics (since every Cleric spell has a V component).

It doesn't seem to be RAI though, for obvious reasons.

I don't think there's anything else, since the removal of the negative stat mods on Kobolds.

However a Kenku Wizard or Cleric could have been taught by a master or at an academy. Hence they could have heard all of the necessary words they need to say for spells. Story wise it's harder of a stretch for Sorcerers, Bards and Warlocks. But you could think of something. Artificers could be fine too with a teacher backstory.

[DomesticHausCat]

One modern example I can think of is a Plasmoid martial that's heavily dependent on its gear. You can function just fine, but there's antisynergy between equipment-based builds and their Amorphous Trait since they have to leave their gear behind when squeezing. Gear-agnostic builds like casters or monks work better for them.



Wizards learn from scrolls though - there's nothing for a Legacy Kenku to "hear."

Ooh I didn't think about that. In that case as a dm I would invent a Microsoft narrator cantrip which narrates words from a scroll, book or whatever for as long as needed.

[Rerem115]

My hot-take for worst race/class combo has to be a goblin rogue. So much of a goblin's racial power budget is tied up in their Nimble Escape - and for good reason! Being able to Disengage or Hide as a bonus action is powerful...shame that rogues already get that, only better. What are you left with?

A movement speed of 30', darkvision 60', Fury of the Small, and disadvantage with Heavy weapons. Nothing crippling, but nothing all that interesting either, and certainly a disappointment for anyone looking to play the 'stereotypical' goblin.

[Theodoxus]

My hot-take for worst race/class combo has to be a goblin rogue. So much of a goblin's racial power budget is tied up in their Nimble Escape - and for good reason! Being able to Disengage or Hide as a bonus action is powerful...shame that rogues already get that, only better. What are you left with?

A movement speed of 30', darkvision 60', Fury of the Small, and disadvantage with Heavy weapons. Nothing crippling, but nothing all that interesting either, and certainly a disappointment for anyone looking to play the 'stereotypical' goblin.

Yeah, if only 5E had Alternate Class Features, so you could swap out Cunning Action for something else... maybe like making a longsword finesse, so that proficiency doesn't go to waste... I think a goblin rogue running around with a two-handed longsword sneak attacking with it would be wondrous.

[Psyren]

My hot-take for worst race/class combo has to be a goblin rogue. So much of a goblin's racial power budget is tied up in their Nimble Escape - and for good reason! Being able to Disengage or Hide as a bonus action is powerful...shame that rogues already get that, only better. What are you left with?

A movement speed of 30', darkvision 60', Fury of the Small, and disadvantage with Heavy weapons. Nothing crippling, but nothing all that interesting either, and certainly a disappointment for anyone looking to play the 'stereotypical' goblin.

I think Goblin Rogues are great! Sure Nimble Escape is redundant with Cunning Action, but you're still the one of the only rogues in the game that can do this at 1st level. All the other features are helpful to rogues - Darkvision so you don't need a light source while you're sneaking around, Small size to make hiding easier (and synergizes with Fury of the Small, which in turn synergizes with the rogue's m.o. of packing as much power into a single hit as possible) 30ft movement on a small race to fuel your getaways etc. Even Fey Ancestry helps with one of the rogue's weaknesses early on.

[AvvyR]

Centaur rogues seem uniquely disadvantaged due to their difficulty climbing, clacky hooves, and general inability to crouch or hide behind a lot of objects.

Hoof attack can be a bonus action, but is always STR, so no Sneak Attack on it. That said, Fey type, 40 movement, and free skill are all good.

[Witty Username]

Rock gnome barbarian, small size excludes the character from most strength weapons, movement speed hurts geting in for melee so rage is muted. And none of your racial features really do much, gnome cunning covers wisdom saves a bit, but that is still a weak point for the character.

On goblin rogue, rogue isn't inconvenienced by goblin, it has one dud feature due to overlap. I feel like worst requires the races with penalties (sunlight sensitivity, 25 move speed, small size, stat reduction). Gobin has small size, but that doesn't factor for most rogues.
As a thought, which hurts more, goblin rogue or a goblin melee strength fighter like paladin or barbarian?

[Luccan]

Centaur rogues seem uniquely disadvantaged due to their difficulty climbing, clacky hooves, and general inability to crouch or hide behind a lot of objects.

Hoof attack can be a bonus action, but is always STR, so no Sneak Attack on it. That said, Fey type, 40 movement, and free skill are all good.

Technically loud hooves and not being able to hide behind objects is a DM ruling, not RAW, but it's not totally unreasonable. Centaurs were a weird choice to introduce as playable

[Bosh]

Not bad but a Goliath rogue.

You get nothing to support a sneaky playstyle, your inherenr size makes It more difficult to hide and crawl through right spaces and If you want to so a grapple build to make use of your Athletics you are grappled too.

My goliath rogue/barbarian worked beautifully. Having a bit of extra tankiness helped make up for losing a lot of barbarian levels and he was very good at athletics.

[Psyren]

Rock gnome barbarian, small size excludes the character from most strength weapons, movement speed hurts geting in for melee so rage is muted. And none of your racial features really do much, gnome cunning covers wisdom saves a bit, but that is still a weak point for the character.

Technically, all melee weapons are strength weapons; you can Barbarian just fine without Heavy weapons. And Barbarian increases your movement speed so there's actually synergy for a small race. Gnome Cunning's benefit to Wisdom saves is pretty nice I'd say.


Goblin has small size, but that doesn't factor for most rogues.

Well they're not just small, they're small with full movement unlike Halflings and Gnomes. Though that won't be a problem in 5.5e.
The biggest benefit to Small size is more hiding places (i.e. half-cover plus.)


As a thought, which hurts more, goblin rogue or a goblin melee strength fighter like paladin or barbarian?

Hurts the goblin more or hurts their enemy more?

[Witty Username]

Hurts the goblin more or hurts their enemy more?

Hurts the player more I guess, the emotional pain of not being able to use nimble escape on a rogue, or being locked out of the heavy weapons for barbarian.
--

As for rock gnome, its not the only small race option or the only race with a speed penalty.
Take say dwarf, 25 movement speed but is able to use heavy weapons, has possibly an extra point of strength for mountain dwarf, And (quick rulling, DM may vary) it looks like that fast movement from the barbarian can be used in heavy armor for a dwarf, if one is considering a multiclass for that.
Or say halfling, lucky and halfing nimbleness are all pretty potent for a barbarian and brave is a pretty similar feature to gnome cunning in terms of effects. Even if all the short commings for gnome still apply.

If we are going small races for barbarian (and paladin, specificly the melee stuff because ranged is less hurt by the heavy restriction and those classes are less flexible on ranged options). Gnome is probably bottom of the pile, and most medium races at worst have no penalties, which puts them in a better spot than the small races.

[stoutstien]

Hurts the player more I guess, the emotional pain of not being able to use nimble escape on a rogue, or being locked out of the heavy weapons for barbarian.
--

As for rock gnome, its not the only small race option or the only race with a speed penalty.
Take say dwarf, 25 movement speed but is able to use heavy weapons, has possibly an extra point of strength for mountain dwarf, And (quick rulling, DM may vary) it looks like that fast movement from the barbarian can be used in heavy armor for a dwarf, if one is considering a multiclass for that.
Or say halfling, lucky and halfing nimbleness are all pretty potent for a barbarian and brave is a pretty similar feature to gnome cunning in terms of effects. Even if all the short commings for gnome still apply.

If we are going small races for barbarian (and paladin, specificly the melee stuff because ranged is less hurt by the heavy restriction and those classes are less flexible on ranged options). Gnome is probably bottom of the pile, and most medium races at worst have no penalties, which puts them in a better spot than the small races.

If your GM uses a form of "climb on larger creatures" as a realistic option, small barbarians can be a blast. Heavy weapons are also already out of play if you like to grapple. Being Small and strong opens up a lot of new ways to interact with the world as it's not something that immediately considered.

[RogueJK]

you can Barbarian just fine without Heavy weapons.

Indeed. There's plenty of effective Barbarian builds that don't rely on Heavy weapons and GWM that would work just fine on a Small race like Halfling or Gnome:
TWF
Rogue/Barbarian
PAM Stick + Shield
Beast Clawbarian (with or without a level of Monk)
Etc.

[animorte]

Sea Elf or Triton Fathomless Warlock. Fathomless provides a swim speed, the ability to breathe underwater, cold resistance and the ability to communicate with creatures in the water, all of which you already have as racial abilities.
I feel personally attacked by this as I recently contributed my concept of a particular Disney villain via Triton Fathomless Warlock. :smalltongue:


Hurts the player more I guess, the emotional pain of not being able to use nimble escape on a rogue, or being locked out of the heavy weapons for barbarian.
I may be in the minority here, but I like the opportunity to approach the game from a different angle consistently, often by creating additional confinements within which to play. I've seen plenty talk/action of this big brute waving a massive weapon, I'll try a different Barbarian.

[Psyren]

Hurts the player more I guess, the emotional pain of not being able to use nimble escape on a rogue, or being locked out of the heavy weapons for barbarian.

Well... you haven't countered or even really acknowledged any of my previous points on this, so I think I'll just let you go on thinking goblin rogues and gnome barbarians are somehow useless or even just deficient in some way.


If your GM uses a form of "climb on larger creatures" as a realistic option, small barbarians can be a blast. Heavy weapons are also already out of play if you like to grapple. Being Small and strong opens up a lot of new ways to interact with the world as it's not something that immediately considered.

Note that there are official rules for this on DMG 271

[Witty Username]

Well... you haven't countered or even really acknowledged any of my previous points on this, so I think I'll just let you go on thinking goblin rogues and gnome barbarians are somehow useless or even just deficient in some way.

To repeat myself,


On goblin rogue, rogue isn't inconvenienced by goblin, it has one dud feature due to overlap. I feel like worst requires the races with penalties (sunlight sensitivity, 25 move speed, small size, stat reduction). Gobin has small size, but that doesn't factor for most rogues.


So in short, goblin rogue has no penalties, so it can't be the worst option. The comparison with other small races with with other class combos is to highlight this.

So if say gnome or halfling is workable despite actual limitations on options in combination with a class. It still stands to reason that goblin rogue has less of issue, as it is not harmed by the combination in any way.
--
If you prefer a different illustration, take drow rogue, sneak attack is blocked by disadvantage, so a drow rogue will have issues some of the time getting sneak attack to work at all with sunlight sensitivity. This is a way bigger problem than, one less racial feature.

And I doubt people say drow rogues are bad.

[Lord Torath]

All this talk about kenku and mimicry makes me wonder: is Bumblebee (the yellow robot from the TransformerTM movies) a good example of how legacy kenku speak?

[Psyren]

All this talk about kenku and mimicry makes me wonder: is Bumblebee (the yellow robot from the TransformerTM movies) a good example of how legacy kenku speak?

Yes - it also comes up in a few horror properties IIRC.

[OldTrees1]

All this talk about kenku and mimicry makes me wonder: is Bumblebee (the yellow robot from the TransformerTM movies) a good example of how legacy kenku speak?

Kenku reply (although it could use other/older quotes and shorter quotes):

All this talk about kenku and mimicry
a good example of how legacy kenku speak

Basically they have a recording of everything they remember hearing and can speak by combining snippets. This is broader than what Bumblebee's selection was since a Kenku can use the words from the current conversation.

[Witty Username]

Kenku reply (although it could use other/older quotes and shorter quotes):


Basically they have a recording of everything they remember hearing and can speak by combining snippets. This is broader than what Bumblebee's selection was since a Kenku can use the words from the current conversation.

I had a character idea in this vein. The idea was a kenku linguist that was trying to reconstruct spoken kenku. The idea being that kenku can mimic what they hear, so the could have snippets of their original language preverved as oral tradition.

[Psyren]

Sorry, missed this:


To repeat myself,


So in short, goblin rogue has no penalties, so it can't be the worst option. The comparison with other small races with with other class combos is to highlight this.

So if say gnome or halfling is workable despite actual limitations on options in combination with a class. It still stands to reason that goblin rogue has less of issue, as it is not harmed by the combination in any way.

Apologies then, I misread you on the goblin. But I'd go further than to say it's merely "not harmed", goblin rogue has a lot of positive synergy even after you fact in the slightly bad feeling of Nimble Escape being redundant with Cunning Action.

It looks like we still disagree on Gnome Barbarian but that's fine.


If you prefer a different illustration, take drow rogue, sneak attack is blocked by disadvantage, so a drow rogue will have issues some of the time getting sneak attack to work at all with sunlight sensitivity. This is a way bigger problem than, one less racial feature.

And I doubt people say drow rogues are bad.

I think Drow everything is bad, because sunlight sensitivity is bad. Thankfully it's getting dumpstered in 5.5e as it deserves.