How to knock a helpless party unconscious?

[Jay R]

I need a way for my villains (a covey of hags, but they can have a caster as a subject) to make a helpless 7th level party unconscious. I'd prefer a simple spell to just clubbing them for awhile.

The hags know the party are coming, and know when, so they will get a surprise round. I intend for them to open the attack with Dust of Sneezing and Choking, so the party will be helpless. But I need them to be captured, so they can learn about the threat they need to prevent.

[No, my players will not be upset with me for an unwinnable scenario that starts the adventure. By the end of the session, they will (in all likelihood) have organized the defending forces and won the battle, defeating and (presumably) killing the hags. Really, I know my players; this is not a bad encounter.]

It's built around a self-fulfilling prophecy. The hags have a prophecy that their invasion can only be stopped by this group. And it's true. Nobody else is in position to learn about the invasion and then get there first to organize the defense. The hags intend to capture them and hold them for questioning. [They are out of time, and cannot question them now.] They will leave the party in the hands of their minions, captured and helpless.

If the hags left the party alone, then the PCs would go on their way, never hearing about the hags, and the invasion would succeed. [Similarly, Oedipus would never have killed his father and married his mother if they hadn't tried to prevent the prophecy from occurring.

So what's the best way to knock a party unconscious when they are already stunned for 12 rounds?

[vasilidor]

Really? It is just clubbing them.
Or, since they are helpless (Supposedly), just tie them up good and tight to poles for transport.
Anything that could magically knock them out has a will save that needs to be resisted even if they are otherwise helpless.
Though that could be used the same time as the Dust, allowing you different ways of ensuring they are rendered helpless because even the dust you mentioned has a saving throw.

[icefractal]

If they were truly helpless, I've seen "successful coup-de-grace with a nonlethal weapon (like a sap) = KO for an hour" as a fairly common house-rule and use it myself.

However, Dust of Sneezing and Choking just makes people stunned. Still very potent, probably guarantees victory if the fight was at all close, but doesn't allow CdG.

I'd suggest stacking some AoE damage-over-time spells with Merciful Spell applied, since stunned people can't leave the AoE. Using scrolls if needed. In fact, using scrolls (or other consumables) is good in general because it explains why the hags can faceroll the party the first time but then be a defeatable threat the second time - they used up a lot of "ammo" that's not easily replaced.

Also, you know your players better than we do, but this happened in a game I was playing, I'd consider Dust of Sneezing and Choking officially on the table and get some myself ASAP, for use against BBEG-types.

[Crake]

If they were truly helpless, I've seen "successful coup-de-grace with a nonlethal weapon (like a sap) = KO for an hour" as a fairly common house-rule and use it myself.

My personal houserule is "deals nonlethal damage equal to the character's max HP+10" so effectively the nonlethal version of "deals enough damage to kill", but yeah, this one's a good one, but...


However, Dust of Sneezing and Choking just makes people stunned. Still very potent, probably guarantees victory if the fight was at all close, but doesn't allow CdG.

This. Dust of Sneezing and Choking is already pretty absurdly powerful as it is, in that it GUARANTEES a minimum of 5 rounds of stunned, even on a successful save. Only ones that can resist it are characters with mettle, or those with immunity to stun somehow.


Also, you know your players better than we do, but this happened in a game I was playing, I'd consider Dust of Sneezing and Choking officially on the table and get some myself ASAP, for use against BBEG-types.

Agreed, I would personally just not use this at my table.

[Drakevarg]

Honestly? Just have them cast some kind of coma spell with a DC of 'No.' It's a plot device, not a combat option, it doesn't need to be fair. If the players question it (which, if they're already disabled, why would they), just say that the hags knew they were coming and prepared a ritual in advance that they triggered once the party was weak enough. Thus handily explaining why the hags won't be able to negate future encounters by simply using the "unblockable coma" spell.

[Jay R]

It's a plot device, not a combat option...

Thank you. This is the most cogent comment I've seen yet.

So how would people design the plot device? Toss my original idea and suggest how you think it should work. The crucial fact is this: unless they are captured, they will not learn what they need to know in time. [Even if they do, it's a race.]

And by the way, they wouldn't be able to get Dust of Sneezing and Choking. They won't be in a place to buy it on this plane, and it can't be made yet on their home plane, where magic has just recently returned.

[Rebel7284]

Whelm, Mass is a non-lethal fireball. Give the caster Sudden Maximize or something. Vow of Nonviolence for +4 Save DC and Veil of Allure for +2 Save DC help too.

Alternatively, a dozen 1 HD minions with immunity to stunning + masterwork manacles + bags to put over heads + a use rope check to bind everything else can go a long way.

[Crake]

So how would people design the plot device?

The irrisistable spell feat from kingdoms of kalamar (the original version) is a +6 metamagic that makes a spell have no save. Apply it to a few sepia snake sigil traps, and say that the hag coven spent years gathering rare herbs from their territory and ritual upon ritual creating these wards around their home to imbue these traps with irresistable power (ie, some form of very expensive material components, and circle magic to craft magical traps).

It still TECHNICALLY gives the party a way to beat them with a sufficient search check on a trapfinding character, but if they're in a rush, and don't check for traps, then you have an out to say "well, if you had searched for traps, they might not have caught you", rather than just saying "you never had any chance to beat this", which would just feel like a copout.

[Gruftzwerg]

Note that by RAW the Dust of Sneezing and Choking ain't intended for ranged use:


If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20- foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing.

There is no indicator that this is a "Ranged Attack". You need to "cast" it into the air surrounding you to produce the 20ft spread.

This is also what makes the item balanced. Because the user is also within the effect radius. So unless your hags are immune, they are also affected.

Sure, you could try to use a single hag that runs into the party of PCs and tries to cast it there. But just be aware of the limitations the item normally has. (or know that you are applying a houserule, if that is what you really want the item to do).

[Rebel7284]

Also, Power Word Disable has no saving throw. Chain Spell can make it affect the whole party. You might need to damage the tanks slightly first to make sure everyone is affected. Makes the dust of sneezing and choking a little redundant, but I guess you need to deal 1 more damage to bring the party from disabled to unconscious.

[Saintheart]

In passing, and it would be a totally pointless build, a Spellwarp Sniper with the Merciful Strike feat could do this with a few spells. Sneak attack would apply to a helpless target, and Sudden Raystrike applies your sneak attack damage to a ray spell. Merciful Strike allows you to deal nonlethal damage with sneak attack. Works on any of your Ray spells.

[smetzger]

Thank you. This is the most cogent comment I've seen yet.

So how would people design the plot device? Toss my original idea and suggest how you think it should work. The crucial fact is this: unless they are captured, they will not learn what they need to know in time. [Even if they do, it's a race.]

And by the way, they wouldn't be able to get Dust of Sneezing and Choking. They won't be in a place to buy it on this plane, and it can't be made yet on their home plane, where magic has just recently returned.

1) Just describe whatever.... gas, spell, etc. doesn't really mater. Then explain its a plot device.

2) If you are using some sort of action or hero points. Give everyone an action or hero point to compensate for the plot device.

[Wintermoot]

I need a way for my villains (a covey of hags, but they can have a caster as a subject) to make a helpless 7th level party unconscious. I'd prefer a simple spell to just clubbing them for awhile.

The hags know the party are coming, and know when, so they will get a surprise round. I intend for them to open the attack with Dust of Sneezing and Choking, so the party will be helpless. But I need them to be captured, so they can learn about the threat they need to prevent.

[No, my players will not be upset with me for an unwinnable scenario that starts the adventure. By the end of the session, they will (in all likelihood) have organized the defending forces and won the battle, defeating and (presumably) killing the hags. Really, I know my players; this is not a bad encounter.]

It's built around a self-fulfilling prophecy. The hags have a prophecy that their invasion can only be stopped by this group. And it's true. Nobody else is in position to learn about the invasion and then get there first to organize the defense. The hags intend to capture them and hold them for questioning. [They are out of time, and cannot question them now.] They will leave the party in the hands of their minions, captured and helpless.

So what's the best way to knock a party unconscious when they are already stunned for 12 rounds?

You've already accepted that you are railroading the party into a non-interactive encounter, so why are you asking for a rules-legal way to do it? Just narrate it and move on. I'm sure you're right and your party won't object to it, so just... do it. I don't know what you are asking for. You have decided they will fail whatever saves they might have against the dust, and so on.

DM: "You enter the cave, foreboding darkness swirling around you and feel the evil energy of the lair."

Players: "I get a torch out/case a light spell/whatever"

DM: "The darkness peels back, revealing a horrible hag. She lifts a hand and blows across it and a cloud of dust bursts into your faces. You collapse to your knees, blinded, coughing, sputtering, unable to defend yourself. You feel more than see the blurry shape move amongst you and then a burst of pain against the back of your head and you drift into unconsciousness.

DM: "Time passes. You come to..." in whatever cage or shackles you want them to be in

Speaking as a player, I don't mind the occasional ham-handed set-transition like this, but I want you to just narrate it and move on if I have no actual agency in the scene. I don't want obviously fake agency, fakely pretending to use the rules wrapped around it. That's insulting and weak. So just admit that it's a cut-scene transition and do it and move on.


EDIt: I'm realizing I sound more bitter about it than I actually feel. As a player I don't mind this kind of plot device (used sparingly) and as a DM, i've occionally done the same. So I mean no judgement about it. But my advice is to just narrate it in some fashion and move on, not try to make it look like its a normal encounter.

[Saintheart]

Oh, also, just as a footnote, the Nonlethal Substitution metamagic feat from BoED basically allows your Fireball to instead clobber a party into unconsciousness because it deals nonlethal damage instead of the energy type of the spell. Doesn't even raise the level of the spell.

[Eurus]

Speaking as a player, I don't mind the occasional ham-handed set-transition like this, but I want you to just narrate it and move on if I have no actual agency in the scene. I don't want obviously fake agency, fakely pretending to use the rules wrapped around it. That's insulting and weak. So just admit that it's a cut-scene transition and do it and move on.

This, tbh. Most of the groups I've played with are willing to roll with a situation like this if the DM is honest, but it can be pretty frustrating to spend time and energy rolling dice and making decisions when that doesn't matter.

To make it work narratively, I'd emphasize the preparation aspect. Say that the hags have some kind of special ritual, trap, or potion brewed up in advance specifically to deal with the party, but it's not something they can easily repeat. Maybe they used a bunch of rare reagents because this is really important to them, or called in a favor from some kind of powerful entity. Maybe they traded a decade's worth of captured human souls to a pit fiend to get the party wished directly into a big iron cage, who grumbles about being used to snare "weak" mortals like this before leaving in a huff, just to emphasize that this isn't business as usual.

[rel]

Important points to note:
Dust of sneezing is a cursed item, the AOE is centered on the user.
The effect can be read as fail the save take con damage, pass and instead get hit by a stun. A failed save could arguably result in a non-stunned PC.
Failing the saves can leave a character dead from CON damage and thus outside the help of raise dead instead of stunned.
The dust is craftable from 7th level with craft wondrous item. A 7th level cleric with the feat can supply the necessary spell and the undead or summoned servant to run up to the enemy and deploy the dust.

All that said, hags tend to have lots of native incapacitating effects; sea hags get strength damage and a multi-day daze through evil eye, green hags have their strength damaging backhand.
The coven has bestow curse; sleep until awakened seems like a reasonable alternate curse option.

Alternate Option
You could use a big stack of symbol spells as a slightly less exploitable incapacitation trap. The hags raise a big banner, the PC's examine it and get hit by a bunch of will saves vs sleep or strength drain then the hags dash in to finish the job.
It's much harder to for the PC's to weaponise, and probably more reliable to boot. And as others have mentioned, you can have the coven access the symbol spell through consumable scrolls so they aren't able to pull the trick off when it comes time for the rematch.

[Quertus]

So how would people design the plot device?

Well, I wouldn’t. I’d design “what the hags would do”. Which might include undead running the bag up (which might kill the PCs?), and undead beating the PCs into submission (or trying to). And, if they seriously have time to set this up, but not Time to interrogate the captured PCs themselves, leaving some minion behind to perform the interrogation.

[Drakevarg]

Honestly? Just have them cast some kind of coma spell with a DC of 'No.' It's a plot device, not a combat option, it doesn't need to be fair. If the players question it (which, if they're already disabled, why would they), just say that the hags knew they were coming and prepared a ritual in advance that they triggered once the party was weak enough. Thus handily explaining why the hags won't be able to negate future encounters by simply using the "unblockable coma" spell.


Thank you. This is the most cogent comment I've seen yet.

So how would people design the plot device?

Some kind of custom ritual spell that takes an hour or two to prepare and renders anyone who steps into the ritual circle unconscious. No save, elves aren't immune, yadda yadda players shut up and ride the plot train, it's not a long trip.

To give it some flavor, make it so the real drawback of the spell is that it's trivially easy to counter via some kind of mundane charm, like having a crow's foot on your person. Something the players would have absolutely no reason to have with them the first time, but something they can easily obtain to render any further attempts at the spell useless. Has a nice witchy feel to it, gives the players a little memento, and everybody loves to be able to pull the occasional "your powers are useless on me" boast.