Sauron vs. Cthulhu

[Eerie]

In your face, ASDAL! Your mascot will lose to the power of the Great Old One!

[Lyesmith]

...This is just cruel. Horrible, horrible cruelty.
*Sets up deckchair* And now...we wait.

[Setra]

This is... no contest.

[Winterwind]

Though you must admit, that's hardly a fair duel. :smallbiggrin:

Lovecraftian monsters are, with very few exceptions, designed as to be undefeatable by definition. That's their place in the philosophy of Lovecraft's books (mankind as unimportant, uninformed and flawed bit of dust in the vastness of a universe where unknown and hostile laws of nature and elder beings rule).

[Rutee]

...That's just OTT. Stupidly so -.-

[Revlid]

Sauron > Most Every Other BBEG

Cthulhu, however, is not a Big Bad Evil Guy. He is not even Evil. He is the flip side of the coin where both Evil and Good are on one side. He is a Great Old One, and he will consume all!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
In his house at R'lyeh dead Cthulhu waits dreaming!

[Setra]

It's no fun if there's no argument.

[Lyesmith]

Would be interesting to see people aguing for sauron, though.

[Eerie]

This is... no contest.

All right.

(Sauron+Lich King+Voldemort+Darth Vader) vs. Cthulhu.

More food for the Sleeping Dead! :smallamused:

[Setra]

Well Sauron has ships right...? :smalltongue:

[Ossian]

Well Sauron has ships right...? :smalltongue:

Sweet...slam a fisherman's boat in Chtulhu's belly! :smallsmile:
No, come on, Chtulhu is exactly te kind of God Sauron would try to befriend and worship. I mean, unless you rephrase the OP as "Sauon trying to get away with his life if Cht. tryed to kill him". That could be argued. Well, Cht. may not know about the ring, but I seriously doubt his grasp is weaker than the fire of Mount Doom (he could nap the One ring like an easter egg's surprise with his bare...uh...hands?).

And before we get ALL consumed, for the elder's sake, let's add it to each post

AI HYDRA AI CHTULHU! CHTULHU F'TAGHN!!!

(whew...just in time)

[Skjaldbakka]

I actually think this vs. thread has merit. I'd have to side with Cthulhu on this one. Cthulhu is on the same scale as Melkor/Morgoth*, and Sauron was his lietenant.

*Actually, that is up to debate. There are humans that went mono-emono with Melkor. As in melee combat.

[Rutee]

I'm pretty sure Morgoth is nowhere near an Elder God. Maybe Nyarlathotep, their herald, but definitely not an Elder God themselves.

...Or is Nyarlie a herald for someone else? I always get Cthonic entities confused..

[Destro_Yersul]

I can see the fight now...

Sauron: I am the dark lord of Mordor, and I have forged the ruling ring. The Master Ring. The one ring... TO RULE THEM ALL!

Cthulu: O R'lyeh? *chomp*

[Lyesmith]

...Permission to Sig that?

[Winterwind]

I'm pretty sure Morgoth is nowhere near an Elder God. Maybe Nyarlathotep, their herald, but definitely not an Elder God themselves.Well, in all fairness, Cthulhu is not an Elder God, and nowhere near the most powerful beings of the Mythos; he is just one very mighty Great Old One, but even he must worship and fear entities such as Azatoth or Yog-Sothoth.

That's not to say Cthulhu is not just as powerful as you describe, of course. :smallwink:


...Or is Nyarlie a herald for someone else? I always get Cthonic entities confused..No, herald of the Elder Gods is right.
Of course, Lovecraft did not make any distinction between "Elder Gods" or "Outer Gods", and barely any between those and "Great Old Ones"; that's something only the authors who came after him tacked onto the Mythos, rather in contradiction to Lovecraft's concepts, in my humble opinion.


Cthulu: O R'lyeh? *chomp*Victory is yours. :smallbiggrin:

[Seraph]

so who wants to take bets on how long it takes EE and Warty Goblin to spam this thread into oblivion?

[Artemician]

so who wants to take bets on how long it takes EE and Warty Goblin to spam this thread into oblivion?

While I may be arguing against them in the LK vs Sauron thread, I do not believe that they are spamming, at all. They've been posting intelligent posts, the large majority of which are backed up with solid facts. Whether they post alot is another matter entirely. Quality trumps quantity.

[GolemsVoice]

Just for adding something:
Cthulhu. Because, ever since the LK hate in the vs thread which involved Sauron, I want to see Sauron bleed! Bleed! Bleed! Uhahahah! Iä!Iä! Iä!
Well, ok, so much for the rambling hate of a fanboy. But I actually think the contest is extremely difficult, since both are beings which are not intended to be posses power which you can measure and say: Oh, he's so strong he could do X.
Both are being which are meant to play their respective world's/universe's antagonist role (which Sauron backed up by The Man Himself, Morgoth, and Cthulhu by his friends and fellow mythos monsters.
It would be like comparing megadeath lasers to killerwaves from space.

[EvilElitest]

Would be interesting to see people aguing for sauron, though.

Not me for one

Really Eeri, Sauron's group have never argued he is immortal. We know he can lose. I don't think there is anything that can defeat Cthulhu, so where is the contest. your've proven Sauron can lose on a thread where it is impossible for anyone to lose? Does that make you feel happy? It strikes me as inmature and silly
from,
EE

[Adumbration]

Not me for one

Really Eeri, Sauron's group have never argued he is immortal. We know he can lose. I don't think there is anything that can defeat Cthulhu, so where is the contest. your've proven Sauron can lose on a thread where it is impossible for anyone to lose? Does that make you feel happy? It strikes me as inmature and silly
from,
EE

Wait a minute... I could swear that that was one of the arguments in Lich King vs. Sauron thread. That since Sauron is immortal, he is more powerful than Lich King. Just give me a second to find that quote, it's buried somewhere inside 8 pages. :smallwink:

[EvilElitest]

so who wants to take bets on how long it takes EE and Warty Goblin to spam this thread into oblivion?

Somebody is bitter, some body is bitter

Look, just because you can't pull off victory doesn't mean you have to reduce to petty insults. God, it is just, childish


And to anyone else who argues against Sauron on Lk vs. Sauron, this isn't directed at you, i know when sauron is defeated, threads like this just makes the point so, worthless
I like challenging arguments, not petty ones

While I may be arguing against them in the LK vs Sauron thread, I do not believe that they are spamming, at all. They've been posting intelligent posts, the large majority of which are backed up with solid facts. Whether they post alot is another matter entirely. Quality trumps quantity.
thank you, that is very disent

Like wise, i wouldn't say something about the pro LK people, the reason why LK vs. Sauron is long is quite frankly, it is a good challenge, they are both extremly powerful and close in power

Wait a minute... I could swear that that was one of the arguments in Lich King vs. Sauron thread. That since Sauron is immortal, he is more powerful than Lich King. Just give me a second to find that quote, it's buried somewhere inside 8 pages
immortal, not indefeasible. The death with Cthulhu, as i understand it, is he has ultimate power. Now somebody who read the books might prove me wrong, but i am of the understanding that nothing can truely defeat him and he has powers beyond the scope of the mortal universe.
from,
EE

[Adumbration]

Gods in WarCraft are vastly different from the Valar and Malar. The malar are immortal, then can't be killed. It is specifically stated that Sauron can't be killed, just reduced to a minor weaken harmless spirit. Thus it is true. Gods in warcraft can be killed.


I'm having a really hard time writing this, because i'm going to break it to you
The powers vary from author to author. In different settings, different rules. In tolkion's world, Sauron is literally unkillable (unless you destroy the universe itself i suppose?). That is how it goes. Unless you can provide proof that he can die, he can't die just be greatly weakened. Mind providing me with that prove.
:smallsigh:

[EvilElitest]

:smallsigh:

your point? doesn't work here.


Cthulhu is by definition unable to be defeated. There is no contest. He is (somebody correct me if i'm wrong) impossible to defeat, and is beyond immortal
At best, Sauron can survive and escape. I fail to see what your trying to prove
from,
EE

[Lyesmith]

So a man with a boat can defeat (for a given value) Cthulu, but Sauron cant? some Dark Lord.

[EvilElitest]

So a man with a boat can defeat (for a given value) Cthulu, but Sauron cant? some Dark Lord.

never read the book, i'm acting off the the idea he is unbeatable. He got hit by a boat?
from,
EE

[Adumbration]

your point? doesn't work here.


Cthulhu is by definition unable to be defeated. There is no contest. He is (somebody correct me if i'm wrong) impossible to defeat, and is beyond immortal
At best, Sauron can survive and escape. I fail to see what your trying to prove
from,
EE

No, just pointing out that you pretty much outright lied a couple of posts ago. Don't know if it was just an accident, and you had forgotten about it, or if you are consistently using lies in arguments.

In any case, I think Cthulhu wins Sauron. Just my personal opinion, though.

[Eerie]

never read the book, i'm acting off the the idea he is unbeatable. He got hit by a boat?
from,
EE

The boat went through him, doing no real damage.

Besides, he weren`t fully awaken...

[WalkingTarget]

Combination Lovecraft/Tolkien fan here.

I brought up the point of immortality on Sauron's part. My definition of it is that the body he inhabits isn't really him. The part of Sauron that is Sauron is imperishable and he'll keep coming back.

That being said, Sauron's biggest problem in that he still thinks in understandable, human-ish ways and Cthulhu laughs at the quaintness of that (well, if he even notices... and if he has anything that could be understood as a sense of humor).

It's a difference in basic assumptions of their respective settings. Tolkien places humans (and the other children of Illuvatar) in a very important place, Lovecraft says they're utterly insignificant.

Sauron spends all of his time trying to control people and ruling the world, Cthulhu knows that that is unimportant. Cthulhu stomps on Sauron whenever he shows up and I wouldn't put it past him to be able to open the Door of Night (or ask Yog-Sothoth nicely) and kick Sauron through if he's too much of a pest and keeps trying.

[EvilElitest]

No, just pointing out that you pretty much outright lied a couple of posts ago. Don't know if it was just an accident, and you had forgotten about it, or if you are consistently using lies in arguments.

In any case, I think Cthulhu wins Sauron. Just my personal opinion, though.

somebody's bitter

And really, you accually, failed, i never said Sauron' isn't immortal, he he just still can't win. Your logic is faulty, and doesn't accually add up
from,
EE

[Adumbration]

somebody's bitter

And really, you accually, failed, i never said Sauron' isn't immortal, he he just still can't win. Your logic is faulty, and doesn't accually add up
from,
EE



Really Eeri, Sauron's group have never argued he is immortal.

Seriously, what's going on here?

[Selrahc]

Doublethink.

[Arakune]

Maybe if Sauron beg enough Cthulhu will let him join his club?

About LK vs Sauron, maybe the question are this: Sauron can't die, i.e. lose, but he can't win either, i.e, can't subdue lich king. Sauron has a clear weakness (one ring), but the lich king don't looks like having one. (But i wounder how he got defeated in the first place?).

So with enough time eventually the LK will win (make sure Sauron are not a threat anymore, but still unable to 'finish him').

[Lyesmith]

Sauron has a clear weakness (one ring), but the lich king don't looks like having one. (But i wounder how he got defeated in the first place?).


..He got Defeated? I think he got rather subdued or pushed off the other continents, but defeated?

[Adumbration]

Are you saying that Lich King has been defeated? When? Is this some sort of spoiler on WC4?

Since I last checked, LK has not been defeated: Arthas (pre-LK) was escaped the Forsaken ones to heed the call of LK and so forth.

[Lyesmith]

Yeah, thats what i meant. even in WoW you wont kill the LK by a long long way. you'll maybe breifly get in his way.

[Arakune]

I just played the W3 so I don't know too much, but since he was trapped in somewhere else and almost unable to do anything directly (only send messages to minions, these eviloverlord things) he was 'defeated' in the sense that he (before joining with Artas) couldn't break loose all the time, become jailed by some long time, etc. Someone had to put him in that fridge in the first place! :smalleek:

[Lyesmith]

He was put there by Kil'jaden, as his prison. he has never been defeated, i think it was more of an amplifier for his powers at the cost of his corperal form.
or something.

[Kneenibble]

Cthulhu: "We're supposed to fight to the death bible orangutang sofa [facial tentacles wriggle, intranscribable locution of madness]."

Sauron: "But think of what we might accomplish together instead."

*Awkward pause*

Sauron: "What else can you do with those things?"

*Sexy music starts*

...
Ask a stupid question.

[Arakune]

He was put there by Kil'jaden, as his prison. he has never been defeated, i think it was more of an amplifier for his powers at the cost of his corperal form.
or something.

And yet he couldn't do much for a long time (or else he could be free much, much before Artas going after him), and that's a 'defeat' in my book. Temporary and ratter frail, but still a defeat.:smallcool:

[warty goblin]

I think what we have here is a confusion of terms.

EE, correct me if I'm wrong. Did you mean that we've never claimed that Sauron is unbeatable or unkillable?

Ahem. As spokesgoblin for ASDAL and official correspondand with the 237 orc horde, reporting on the situation in Osgiliath, I would like to address some points:

Yes, he have maintained that Sauron is unkillable at various times in the bast, since he's a feature of the universe embedded within it since creation. It's like trying to destroy the existance of gravity. It's just there. Sauron == really pissy gravity.

We have never maintained that Sauron cannot be beat however. I personally conceded that pretty much anything from WH40K would do it (The Emperor of Mankind pre-heresy, the C'Tan, the Chaos gods etc), Raistlin Majere, several gods/ entities from classical mythology, and probably something I'm forgetting. It is not, nor has it ever been the view of ASDAL that Sauron cannot be defeated by the proper entities, but that these entities were not involved in any of the vs. threads to date.

The Elder entity Cluthlu is certainly such an entity, and I for one, conceed this fight.

...Now back to the situation in Osgiliath. Ever since yesterday, the 237th has been pressing the crossing, which is heavily defended by those fool humans. We have been taking heavy loses, but moral is high, for we know that we fight for the greater bad and the liberation of the oppressed orc underclass from their bougious human and elve oppressors. Also, the high casualties have kept food supplies high. Nothing raises a comrade orc's moral like feasting on another comrade orc, who can die confident in his utility.

According to top military planner Gothmog, who refused to speak with us on camera in order to maintain his to secret identity, the crossing is expected to fall by the end of the day, or next year at the very latest.

Plans are already being lad for the seige of Minas Tirith, which critics are calling "a massive and intense action set piece." Says the enigmatic transgender head siege coordinator, known only as "The Witch-King,"

"We are very lucky to be able to take part in this very special siege. I mean, I've always loved sieges, and have been involved in some of the best- anybody catch "Siege of Fornost" all those years ago. Classic classic. All me you know... Anyway, when Big S called me up and offered me this chance, I leapted at it straight away. And we've been able to communicate with some people inside the walls as well, and we know that they are working just as hard as we are to make this a truly special and unforgettable kind of siege."

Of course, no issue is without its other sides. Thus I went undercover as a pathetic orphan and inflitrated Minas Tirith itself. The city seemed tense, like just before Christmas when we'll all sitting around trying to figure out who to eat this year, and nobody want to make the first move... anyway, the city is tense, expectant of the big day. During my conversations with several city dwellers, they seemed concerned that their homes and property may be destroyed doing the seige, and where could they turn to then? I heard the name "houses of healing" passed around repeatedly.

Never one to pass up a potential story, I tracked down these "houses of healing" What I found was shocking, and may offend our more delicate readers, but I feel you have the right to the truth. At first the Houses looked like a reputable establishment. Run by the old battle-axe Yoreth, they featured lots of tables, herbs, knives and other down-homy touches. On some of the tables, which were covered in attractive pads, lay wounded people. Now I understood, the Houses of Healing were a food redistribution center, and the wounded were stored her for freshness before being converted into dinner. Truly a wonderful and humane establishment I exclaimed to my self. Excitedly I asked Yoreth if that was indeed the case.

Three minutes later I exited Minas Tirith pursued by half the guards, my lovable orphan diguise in tatters. It turns out, my dear readers, that they actually seek to "cure" the wounded of their wounds at that horrible place. Shocking I know. Now more than ever I burn with the fires of liberation, and yearn to tear that cursed place down and liberate it's people from the curse of healthcare.

From Osgiliath, I'm Warty Goblin.

[multilis]

If you believe everything you hear then: "Those are Pariain, out of the far country of the Halflings, where they are princes of great fame... one of them went with only his esquire into the Black Country and fought with the Dark Lord all by himself, and set fire to his Tower..." ROTK->The Steward and the King.

Cthulhu is just a big fat Shelob with wings and a little telepathy, but of course his worshippers are always bragging him up to be bigger than that.

There would be no fight, Sauron would just keep him as a pet, guarding a path to Mordor, just like Shelob, and if Cthulhu got hungry, he could eat a few orcs, Sauron had plenty to spare.

Of course if Cthulhu got uppish then he would be taken to the lockholes till he was tamed by hunger.

[Xuincherguixe]

Depends on the Cthulhu.

[....]

I'm pretty sure Morgoth is nowhere near an Elder God. Maybe Nyarlathotep, their herald, but definitely not an Elder God themselves.

...Or is Nyarlie a herald for someone else? I always get Cthonic entities confused..

Nyarlathotep is a herald and messenger for the Big Three of the Lovecraft universe: Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath, and Azathoth.


He's probably as powerful as Cthulhu, though, and more importantly, Nyarlathotep has shown himself able to think and reason and act in a rational matter. Most of the ultra-powerful Elder Gods are dumb as dirt. Azathoth is the most powerful being in all the multiverse, but it just wants to listen to flutes.

Some fans (including me) think that Nyarlathotep manipulates the Elder Gods to get what he wants, which seems mostly to be Randolf Carter.

[WalkingTarget]

Some fans (including me) think that Nyarlathotep manipulates the Elder Gods to get what he wants, which seems mostly to be Randolf Carter.

Sounds about right.

[Eerie]

Nyarlathotep is a herald and messenger for the Big Three of the Lovecraft universe: Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath, and Azathoth.


He's probably as powerful as Cthulhu, though, and more importantly, Nyarlathotep has shown himself able to think and reason and act in a rational matter. Most of the ultra-powerful Elder Gods are dumb as dirt. Azathoth is the most powerful being in all the multiverse, but it just wants to listen to flutes.

Some fans (including me) think that Nyarlathotep manipulates the Elder Gods to get what he wants, which seems mostly to be Randolf Carter.

Look, deep in your heart you all know it is Cthulhu who is the mightest. He is the coolest, and just pretends that he is inferior...

Also: IA! FHTAG`N!

[Bago!!!]

Nerzhul defeated? Somewhat. He escaped into the twisting Nether, was caught and Kil'jaeden began to torture him by having demons constantly ripping appart his body, but his spirit was unable to leave it. Finally, Kil'jaeden offered Ner'zhul a way out. Ner'zhul accepted. His spirit was put into a coffin of Ice that was supposedly indestructible, and sent down to bring forth a new army worthy of the legion. I think that was in a way, a win because he got out of that slippery situation, but he was still captured and tortured so that would indicate a lose.

So, yeah. He lost before he became the lich king.

[Cuddly]

Cthulhu's a pretty minor god in Lovecraft mythos. In fact, he's nowhere near the level of a god like the other entities are, like Hastur or Azathoth.

He's a minor deity, consigned to a minor planet. He even thinks. The true powers in the mythos are mindless, gibbering things that fill the voids between stars.

[Eerie]

Cthulhu's a pretty minor god in Lovecraft mythos. In fact, he's nowhere near the level of a god like the other entities are, like Hastur or Azathoth.

He's a minor deity, consigned to a minor planet. He even thinks. The true powers in the mythos are mindless, gibbering things that fill the voids between stars.

Nah, thats just what Lovecraft thinks...

But I have seen the truth!!! :smalleek:

[EvilElitest]

Seriously, what's going on here?

Oh makes sense

Sorry, i ment undefeatable. He is immortal, but able to be defeated, WG is right

But really, you find the need to nitpick for that? God, take this out on the LK thread


About LK vs Sauron, maybe the question are this: Sauron can't die, i.e. lose, but he can't win either, i.e, can't subdue lich king. Sauron has a clear weakness (one ring), but the lich king don't looks like having one. (But i wounder how he got defeated in the first place?).

So with enough time eventually the LK will win (make sure Sauron are not a threat anymore, but still unable to 'finish him').
Save it for the LK vs. Sauron thread. LK blow himself when he was alive, and weather he would win or not has not been concluded


Oh and WG, you are amazing

Cthulhu is just a big fat Shelob with wings and a little telepathy, but of course his worshippers are always bragging him up to be bigger than that.

There would be no fight, Sauron would just keep him as a pet, guarding a path to Mordor, just like Shelob, and if Cthulhu got hungry, he could eat a few orcs, Sauron had plenty to spare.
wait, Cthulhu is unintellegent? Really? Oh, if that is the case, than that idea does make sense

Nerzhul defeated? Somewhat. He escaped into the twisting Nether, was caught and Kil'jaeden began to torture him by having demons constantly ripping appart his body, but his spirit was unable to leave it. Finally, Kil'jaeden offered Ner'zhul a way out. Ner'zhul accepted. His spirit was put into a coffin of Ice that was supposedly indestructible, and sent down to bring forth a new army worthy of the legion. I think that was in a way, a win because he got out of that slippery situation, but he was still captured and tortured so that would indicate a lose.

So, yeah. He lost before he became the lich king
don't forget, he blow up his planet by mistake. I just find that so funny
from,
EE

[Seraph]

Cthulhu isn't stupid or unintelligent. its just that trying to rationalize his thought processes by way of human terms is like trying to compare human morality and thought to the most insignificant of microbes.

[....]

I just played the W3 so I don't know too much, but since he was trapped in somewhere else and almost unable to do anything directly (only send messages to minions, these eviloverlord things) he was 'defeated' in the sense that he (before joining with Artas) couldn't break loose all the time, become jailed by some long time, etc. Someone had to put him in that fridge in the first place! :smalleek:

The demons locked him in the Frozen Throne.

But consider this, even locked away in a glacier, with most of his power sealed, the Lich King was STILL able to destroy all of Quel'Thelas and the vast majority of Lordaeron. Eventually demons came to help, but most of that fighting was done bu the undead, which are the direct result of the Lich King's power.

[....]

Look, deep in your heart you all know it is Cthulhu who is the mightest. He is the coolest, and just pretends that he is inferior...

Also: IA! FHTAG`N!

No, not really. I actually dislike Cthulhu because of all his press.

Seriously, he got rammed in the head and gave up. People can't even hear the music that Azathoth listens to IN ORDER TO RELAX and stay sane.

[Winterwind]

Well, regarding the being rammed in the head...
a) It was not a boat, it was a large ship going at full ramming speed actually, and obviously piloted by someone with POW 18 and SAN 99 who got a really, really lucky roll on his Sanity check and Sanity loss (half the crew died upon merely seeing Cthulhu, for crying out loud).
b) He was by far not fully awaken.
c) He reformed quickly anyway.
d) It's more or less implied he was just toying around with the ship anyway.
e) The reason why he stopped pursuing the ship seems to be rather because the stars were not right, R'lyeh sank again and he therefore went back to sleep, not because he couldn't have if the stars had been right.

So stop dissing Big C for the ship incident! :smalltongue:

Nevertheless, yeah, Cthulhu is by far not one of the mightiest beings of the Mythos. I think it's in the Dunwich Horror story (might be mistaken about this part though), where it's said about some monstrosities that "Great Cthulhu is their cousin, but even he can't see them properly", and it's implied that they are much more powerful than he is.

As for Azathoth... well, he is the demonic sultan of all Elder Gods. I think it's hardly fair to compare Cthulhu to that. :smallwink:

Fun fact: The Cthulhu RPG lists the sanity loss for seeing Great Cthulhu as D100 points. The next entry lower on that list (3D10) contains, as example, "single-handedly and willingly causing the destruction of the human race".
Yes, that's right, seeing Cthulhu is worse for the human psyche than being fully and alone responsible for the extermination of mankind.

[Rutee]

Nyarlathotep is a herald and messenger for the Big Three of the Lovecraft universe: Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath, and Azathoth.


He's probably as powerful as Cthulhu, though, and more importantly, Nyarlathotep has shown himself able to think and reason and act in a rational matter. Most of the ultra-powerful Elder Gods are dumb as dirt. Azathoth is the most powerful being in all the multiverse, but it just wants to listen to flutes.

Some fans (including me) think that Nyarlathotep manipulates the Elder Gods to get what he wants, which seems mostly to be Randolf Carter.
Hm, thanks! Is his work public domain yet? Because it'd be nice to read, but funds are a bit tight and saved for other things, but if it could be free, it'd be nice to add to the list of things I will never do, but plan to do..

[....]

Hm, thanks! Is his work public domain yet? Because it'd be nice to read, but funds are a bit tight and saved for other things, but if it could be free, it'd be nice to add to the list of things I will never do, but plan to do..

Libraries are free. :smallsmile:

[Rutee]

I have to sneak into libraries. I have like, a 100 dollar fine on me for being late returning Shogun... not something I really jump to as my first thought. But duly noted <.<

[Winterwind]

Well, there's also this site here (http://www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft/index.html), for all your Lovecrafty (and other classic horror) reading needs. :smallwink:

[EvilElitest]

I have to sneak into libraries. I have like, a 100 dollar fine on me for being late returning Shogun... not something I really jump to as my first thought. But duly noted <.<

hey, that is my favorite book


Anyways, isn't Cthulhu's strength irrelvant, because i am of the understanding that any of them could destory sauron

But if he is mindless, different story
from,
EE

[....]

Well, I sort of expressed wrong when I said 'dumb as dirt'.

They just don't care. There never would be a fight between Big C and Sauron, because Sauron would launch his most powerful magiks at Big C, and Cthulhu would wave his hand around like a gnat bit him.

[EvilElitest]

Well, I sort of expressed wrong when I said 'dumb as dirt'.

They just don't care. There never would be a fight between Big C and Sauron, because Sauron would launch his most powerful magiks at Big C, and Cthulhu would wave his hand around like a gnat bit him.

Sauron would most likely run or switch sides at that point
from,
EE

[Winterwind]

And learn "new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy himself, and all Middle-Earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom".

[EvilElitest]

And learn "new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy himself, and all Middle-Earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom".

Well, they could open a band together, along with voldemort, Lk, the Mounth of Sauron (lead singer) and have a blast
from,
EE

[Winterwind]

Well, they could open a band together, along with voldemort, Lk, the Mounth of Sauron (lead singer) and have a blast
from,
EESo what would that be called, Hell on Earth? :smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

So what would that be called, Hell on Earth? :smallbiggrin:

We have vs. thread for hell on earth, something a little more Overlordish
from,
EE

[Dervag]

I think that Sauron is at least powerful enough that Cthulhu would perceive him as being a hostile entity whose opposition is a relevant concern- which is not something anyone can say about most other entities in fiction. Mordor might be an antagonist of a lower order than, say, the civilization of the Elder Things (who had futuristic technology, advanced bioengineering, physical bodies capable of withstanding the pressures of ocean trenches, and who lasted for hundreds of millions of years on Earth). But it would be sufficiently powerful that Cthulhu might actually care whether it supported or opposed his ends, and would probably be willing to accept Sauron in a subordinate role.

I say this simply because while Sauron is powerful by any sane human standard, he can't turn the world inside out at a whim the way Cthulhu can. Cthulhu as defined in Lovecraft is much more powerful than Sauron as defined in Tolkien.


If you believe everything you hear then: "Those are Pariain, out of the far country of the Halflings, where they are princes of great fame... one of them went with only his esquire into the Black Country and fought with the Dark Lord all by himself, and set fire to his Tower..." ROTK->The Steward and the King.Well, that's actually about... 4/5 true. Maybe even 9/10. By Hobbit standards, Frodo and Sam are princes of great fame, they really did go into the Black Country and set fire to his Tower, although it's not really true that they fought the Dark Lord directly.


Cthulhu is just a big fat Shelob with wings and a little telepathy, but of course his worshippers are always bragging him up to be bigger than that.How much Lovecraft have you read, again?


Look, deep in your heart you all know it is Cthulhu who is the mightest. He is the coolest, and just pretends that he is inferior...

Also: IA! FHTAG`N!Well, isn't he supposed to be a sort of high priest of those aforesaid Outer Gods?


So stop dissing Big C for the ship incident! :smalltongue:If nothing else, it does establish that he can be slain or put to inconvenience by physical force.

[Destro_Yersul]

...Permission to Sig that?

If it's me you meant, go ahead.

[Irenaeus]

If I were to construct an argument in Sauron's favor, it would have to be that he has a personal history of causing continents to sink. If he somehow could pull off one more of those tricks that might keep the big C pacified or quite some time. Depending strongly on your interpretation of Lovecraftian cosmology, off course.

That is about the only chance he's got, and it is not a very good one.

[....]

I don't think Cthulhu really has a 'side' you can go to.

All of his worshippers are just lunatics who want to destroy the world. I could see Sauron going down on one knee, begging for mercy, claiming he'd serve Lord Cthulhu for all eternity...

And Cthulhu looking at his foot a moment later and thinking, in an utterly unimagnable way, "What this on my sole then?"

[Cuddly]

Sauron is a weak, human demi-god. Human gods are weak.

[lipe44]

Sauron is a weak, human demi-god. Human gods are weak.

Wow, i never thought someone could write so many wrong things in a sentence...

Sauron is not weak.
Sauron is not human.

And how can a God be weak? Maybe in relation with other Gods but he isnt weak...

[puppyavenger]

Nyarlathotep is a herald and messenger for the Big Three of the Lovecraft universe: Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath, and Azathoth.


He's probably as powerful as Cthulhu, though, and more importantly, Nyarlathotep has shown himself able to think and reason and act in a rational matter. Most of the ultra-powerful Elder Gods are dumb as dirt. Azathoth is the most powerful being in all the multiverse, but it just wants to listen to flutes.

Some fans (including me) think that Nyarlathotep manipulates the Elder Gods to get what he wants, which seems mostly to be Randolf Carter.

how exactly is the omninisent Yog-Sothoth dumb as dirt/

[Cuddly]

Wow, i never thought someone could write so many wrong things in a sentence...

Sauron is not weak.
Sauron is not human.

And how can a God be weak? Maybe in relation with other Gods but he isnt weak...

Elven. Whatever. The difference between people and people with pointed eats isn't as big as you may think it is.

But in the Grand Scheme of things, the human(oid) deities are weak. The earth deities are feeble and unable to protect their domain from the horrible entities that occasionally blunder through our small, narrow perception of reality. They hide.


how exactly is the omninisent Yog-Sothoth dumb as dirt/

Because the Outer Gods aren't really gods like you would understand a god. They're more like fundamental, universal principles. They are vast, transdimensional things, of which only a small portion of them can we sometimes glimpse. We try to rationalize their existence, ascribing them human attributes such as thought or reason or omniscience. But that would be about as sensible as venerating gravity or magnetic radiation.

[BelkarIsAGod]

This thread was... Inevitable.

You can hardly say that it's a fair match, though. Name one thing that can stand up to a member of the lovecraftian mythos.
(Do not say another member, because belkar knows where you live.)

[warty goblin]

Three points:

1) As said, Cthulhu would most likely win.

2) That said, I think this may be a case of fundamentally incompatible cosmologies. In Lovecraft the most powerful beings are beyond human comprehension etc etc. In Tolkein this is not true, but I'm not sure that it follows they are neccesarily less powerful, given that they, you know, created the universe.

3) I'm fairly certain that some stuff from WH40K would beat some of the Elder Gods, if nothing else a bolter is a lot more damaging than a steamship, and the Imperium of Man has lots of bolters, and things that make bolters look like fingernail clippers in terms of lethality.

[lipe44]

Elven. Whatever. The difference between people and people with pointed eats isn't as big as you may think it is.

But in the Grand Scheme of things, the human(oid) deities are weak. The earth deities are feeble and unable to protect their domain from the horrible entities that occasionally blunder through our small, narrow perception of reality. They hide.


Wrong again, he is not elven. He existed before the world(Arda) was created...

Well, if they stood up and did something about it what would be the point of basically every single history? All stories have the hero as ultra impossibly weak and still they win, if they were strong how come they would last more than 1 line?

[....]

This thread was... Inevitable.

You can hardly say that it's a fair match, though. Name one thing that can stand up to a member of the lovecraftian mythos.

Well, Nodens likes to mess with Nyarlathotep, and I'm not sure if Nodens is an Old One or not.

Randolf Carter has evaded Nyarlathotep and Azathoth for going on three lifetimes. (First one as his original life through his Dream Quest, then he started life over as a boy, then grew up and body-switched with a crab man).

[Cuddly]

Wrong again, he is not elven. He existed before the world(Arda) was created...

What I'm saying is that he is inherently an understandable creature in a world of comprehensible things. Everything in Tolkien walks around and speaks language and feels the same stupid feelings.


Well, if they stood up and did something about it what would be the point of basically every single history? All stories have the hero as ultra impossibly weak and still they win, if they were strong how come they would last more than 1 line?

The hero always loses in Lovecraft. At best, he escapes with his sanity still intact. Barely.


Well, Nodens likes to mess with Nyarlathotep, and I'm not sure if Nodens is an Old One or not.

Randolf Carter has evaded Nyarlathotep and Azathoth for going on three lifetimes. (First one as his original life through his Dream Quest, then he started life over as a boy, then grew up and body-switched with a crab man).

What? Nyarlathotep totally screwed him by sticking him in a crab body. That's no evasion. That's being an Outer God's play thing.

[lipe44]

What I'm saying is that he is inherently an understandable creature in a world of comprehensible things. Everything in Tolkien walks around and speaks language and feels the same stupid feelings.

Not really, Tolkien never explain much about the Valar or Maiar. Everyone can speak but some are just crazy monsters like Ungoliant.

[....]

Not really, Tolkien never explain much about the Valar or Maiar. Everyone can speak but some are just crazy monsters like Ungoliant.


His point is that they are driven by human emotions, hatred, fear, rage, ect...

Cthutlhu and the other outer-gods have no understandable reasoning or logic behind their actions. If a human tried to understand, his brain would literally pop.

People who see Sauron cower in fear, people who see Cthulhu drop dead.

[lipe44]

His point is that they are driven by human emotions, hatred, fear, rage, ect...

Cthutlhu and the other outer-gods have no understandable reasoning or logic behind their actions. If a human tried to understand, his brain would literally pop.

People who see Sauron cower in fear, people who see Cthulhu drop dead.

No emotions? Well, i was going to read about these guys but you just changed my mind. All things mainly about people with no feelings always suck.

[Winterwind]

No emotions? Well, i was going to read about these guys but you just changed my mind. All things mainly about people with no feelings always suck.a) The stories are not so much about them as they are about the people confronted with them, and these do feel emotions... though I imagine they might prefer not to, in the little time before their sanity is burnt out.
b) He didn't say they had no emotions, merely that they had no emotions of a kind we can understand.
c) Why not judge for yourself (http://www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft/index.html)? :smallwink:

[lipe44]

a) The stories are not so much about them as they are about the people confronted with them, and these do feel emotions... though I imagine they might prefer not to, in the little time before their sanity is burnt out.
b) He didn't say they had no emotions, merely that they had no emotions of a kind we can understand.
c) Why not judge for yourself (http://www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft/index.html)? :smallwink:

a) Well but as they are the main enemies it still says a lot about them...

b)Well, he did say that "Cthutlhu and the other outer-gods have no understandable reasoning or logic behind their actions". I dont agree, emotions are all of the same type, the only difference is the being itself and who judge it.

c) That will be a problem... Im not that good in English and dont even like to read books at the internet...

[Winterwind]

a) Well but as they are the main enemies it still says a lot about them...

b)Well, he did say that "Cthutlhu and the other outer-gods have no understandable reasoning or logic behind their actions". I dont agree, emotions are all of the same type, the only difference is the being itself and who judge it.

c) That will be a problem... Im not that good in English and dont even like to read books at the internet...a) No, at least not in the conventional sense. Keep in mind these are horror stories - which means that the protagonist has no idea what is going on most of the time, and the revelation comes only at the end (at which point the protagonist usually either dies or flees, and the story is over). The tension of a horror story lies in not knowing what is out there.
Besides, Great Old Ones or Elder Gods do not appear in all that many of Lovecraft's stories. Quickly going over the list, I think they do in maybe one third of them.

b) The key word is understandable. The basic idea of Lovecraft's entire philosophy (which is essentially nihilism on steroids) is that the rules of nature as we know them are effective only in a very limited area of space, and human beings are not only completely meaningless as compared to the vastness of space and the power of the things that lurk out there, but also inherently not equipped to comprehend the universe - we lack the eyes to see the other dimensions, to understand the geometries by which the world truly works, and to even try to comprehend the grim truths means inevitably to go insane.
(also, Cthulhu is a very different being than the outer gods, and shouldn't be lumped together with them; at least, Cthulhu is sapient, in some twisted kind of way, unlike the Elder Gods, who are outright described as mindless and idiotic)

c) Well, it's not like they are long (though I admit that Lovecraft's style was considered archaic even back in the 20ies, when he wrote these stories). Nevertheless, anthologies of his stories are available everywhere (and in my opinion, they are considered classics for a good reason :smallwink: )

[lipe44]

a) No, at least not in the conventional sense. Keep in mind these are horror stories - which means that the protagonist has no idea what is going on most of the time, and the revelation comes only at the end (at which point the protagonist usually either dies or flees, and the story is over). The tension of a horror story lies in not knowing what is out there.
Besides, Great Old Ones or Elder Gods do not appear in all that many of Lovecraft's stories. Quickly going over the list, I think they do in maybe one third of them.

b) The key word is understandable. The basic idea of Lovecraft's entire philosophy (which is essentially nihilism on steroids) is that the rules of nature as we know them are effective only in a very limited area of space, and human beings are not only completely meaningless as compared to the vastness of space and the power of the things that lurk out there, but also inherently not equipped to comprehend the universe - we lack the eyes to see the other dimensions, to understand the geometries by which the world truly works, and to even try to comprehend the grim truths means inevitably to go insane.
(also, Cthulhu is a very different being than the outer gods, and shouldn't be lumped together with them; at least, Cthulhu is sapient, in some twisted kind of way, unlike the Elder Gods, who are outright described as mindless and idiotic)

c) Well, it's not like they are long (though I admit that Lovecraft's style was considered archaic even back in the 20ies, when he wrote these stories). Nevertheless, anthologies of his stories are available everywhere (and in my opinion, they are considered classics for a good reason :smallwink: )

a)I see, i never liked much horror stories, i prefer things like LOTR. As they are horror stories then i imagine that the things they face is always given powers that it doesnt have or that is merely a consequence of their own acts.

b) Well, humans are insignificant in comparison with the universe and everything that might exist on it and we really cant understand the universe. If they can be described then they cant be understandable, or at least i think like that.

c) Ill give a look at it, i started with "The Call of Cthulhu"(Its written like that?)

[Winterwind]

a)I see, i never liked much horror stories, i prefer things like LOTR. As they are horror stories then i imagine that the things they face is always given powers that it doesnt have or that is merely a consequence of their own acts.What do you mean by "powers it doesn't have"?
You still seem to think these stories are about a couple of people fighting against some primordial evil, which possesses some special powers the people try to overcome. It's not like that at all. Those are, essentially, powers of nature; you do not fight them, and their powers matter little, because the story is not about what that being can accomplish, or how it can be defeated; it's entirely about the dread and tension building up while the protagonists slowly approach the truth.


b) Well, humans are insignificant in comparison with the universe and everything that might exist on it and we really cant understand the universe. If they can be described then they cant be understandable, or at least i think like that.Usually, they can not be described. That's the point - once you describe something, it ceases to be horrifying. It's always better to leave as much as possible to the reader's imagination, for they will invariably come up with images far more terrible than anything the writer could ever hope to accomplish.


c) Ill give a look at it, i started with "The Call of Cthulhu"(Its written like that?)Reasonably good start, I'd say (though it is one of the longer ones; it's, incidentally, also the only one to feature Cthulhu himself). And yes, it is written like that.

[Thrythlind]

It is a common conceit among those who are fans of the Cthulhu mythos that Lovecraft's entities are greater in power than the more traditional, humanistic sort of deities found in pantheons within real history, or of eldritch horrors found in other fiction. There is also this sort of belief that the Lovecraftian entities are something worse than "evil" since they are an entirely alien sort of entity that doesn't even understand or care about humanity at all. In stories that contain both Lovecraftian entities and beings from more standard myths, the Lovecraftian styled entities are largely implied to be more powerful and very difficult to contend with. The truth is that the Lovecraftian entities aren't really all that different from the entities of other myths or fiction. Now this is not going to be a perfect comparison since power at the scale cannot really be objectively measured. Everything involved is highly conceptual in nature and pretty much ignores such things as physics.

That is not Dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die.

One of the things that people point to for the overwhelming power of Lovecraft's entities over those of other sources is the explicit fact that beings like Cthulhu can't really die in the commonly accepted meaning of the word. Cthulhu is mentioned to be in a death-like sleep but that this status is temporary. Cthulhu, like several other Old Ones and Great Old Ones and so on are basically implied as being unable to actually die. As such there is always a chance that they might come back. This is compared to other pantheons wherein supposedly the Gods can die. However, this needs to be looked at as well.

In Greek myth, the Gods and Titans do not actually die. Chronos, after being cut up into multiple pieces is then locked in Tartarus due to the fact that no matter how much damage is done to him, he cannot really die. The same is implied to be true of all the Gods in the Greek pantheon. They can be harmed and injured and devoured (as Zeus did to Metis), but they can't really die. This is similarly the case for most pantheons. In fact, in most real world myths, nothing really ever dies. Even for humans death is simply a change from one state to another. The idea of Cthulhu or anything else being essentially unkillable is rather a normal facet of a myth instead of being an indicator of how powerful Lovecraftian entities are. The one major exception would seem to be the Aesir and other Nordic myths, for whom death, the rare times it happens, is actually permanent

Likewise, this goes for the same in some fictional settings.

The beings within Tolkien's legendarium are also essentially immortal at their most basic level. The Ainur, the divine spirits that came to Arda to guide its life cycle, are primarily non-physical entities. With the blessing of Eru they can take physical form in order to interact with the world that Eru had created. In a normal case, the Ainur can take up a physical form or drop it relatively easily. If their physical form is some how destroyed, it takes them longer to create a new one. Also, if the particular spirit has been serving their own interests rather than those of Eru, it is possible and even likely that they will not be able to recreate a physical form. As such, Fallen Ainur such as Morgoth, Sauron and the Balrogs become more and more tied to their physical form and less able to change it or create a new one. Morgoth got around this by creating the Iron Crown, which would serve as an anchor for his spirit to return to Middle Earth. So long as the crown existed in Middle Earth, he would be able to return. The Iron Crown is the basic concept used by Sauron in the creation of the One Ring. In both cases, they allowed the spirit to create a new body after losing the old ones. Even when the Ring is destroyed, Sauron is not killed, he is merely made impotent. From that point on, he is only a shadow capable of creating fear and doubt in the area near him, but even that only weakly. If Eru were an uncaring creator deity such as Azazoth, then Sauron and Morgoth would be exactly as unkillable as any of the old ones because they would always be able to come back to it eventually.

Corruption of Realms and People

A lot of is made of the fact that the Outer Gods and the Great Old Ones can tinker with the nature of people and use that create things like the people of Innsmouth or bizarre, otherworldly realms wherein the normal laws of physics seem to have no sway. However, the impact on the physical world as evidenced by Cthulhu is rather mild compared to other pieces of fiction. Compare to the Greek Gods, which can alter the climates on a whim and frequently do or the Tolkien legendarium where the climate and terrain around a major power like Morgoth or even someone as low as Elrond, begins to grow and develop to match the character and nature of its master. As to the corruption of people, look to orcs, trolls, nazghul, gollum and Black Numenoreans for examples of how Tolkien's spiritual agents can alter the people around them. For real world myth you have all manners of stories where in the gods curse sometimes entire groups. Even the relatively low power type gods in the Forgotten Realms setting are able to magically alter humans and others. For the effect of angels and demons on humanity in the Abrahamic religions, look up the stories of nephilium and witches, also note the stories of 40 days and nights of rain, or the way that YHWH or whoever will occasionally blast an area with crippling drought.

Insanity on Sight or Exposure

Once again, this is not an unusual facet of mythological beings. Looking at angels will turn you to salt, if you're lucky. Looking at the true form of a Greek god will burn you to a pile of ashes in a moment, as shown when Hera tricked one of Zeus's lovers to demand that he prove himself by showing his true appearance. Sauron, on his own at the lowest apex of his dwindling power, was able to drive people insane merely by observing them from a distance. The only difference between Cthulhu and most mythological beings in this case is their willingness to expose their true natures. The Great Old Ones don't care about people, so they rarely if ever have a reason to conceal their sanity-warping forms. Meanwhile the gods of most pantheons regularly go around in some easily understandable form rather than constantly sending their followers into fatal seizures or worse.

Azazoth - Creator and Destroyer

Of course, not Lovecraft fan is going to get in this discussion without bringing the single most powerful entity of the mythos and pointing out that Azazoth will eventually destroy the universe and that nothing can stop it. Only by keeping it asleep using the multitude of demonic musicians circling it, is Azazoth kept at bay. However, Azazoth is really no different in that regards from other creator entities. Eru and YHWH, considered essentially the same entity really, both created the universes in which they dwelled as well. Now someone is going to say "but Eru and YHWH each created a single planet, not a whole universe." This is a flawed perspective. While the stated myths of such things only indicate Earth, that's largely because that's the part of reality focused on in the stories. It is explicitly stated in both cases that the entity created the entire universe of the setting. In Eru's case, he even simply altered the entire nature of that setting in order to make people unable to reach Valinor without help. At first the world was flat and connected straight to Valinor. After the sinking of Numenor, sailing west only resulted in finding new realms (which did not get mentioned in the novel). It is likely that he eventually altered the shape of the heavens in order to prevent humans from reaching the spiritual planes by going up and instead only allowed them to find more physical places to go to.

Limits

Now this is something. Lovecraft's entities have limits, hard limits that they can't work around and are not taken on just by their own decision. Most pantheon entities likewise have similar limits. Quite often their is a trace of "gods need prayer" going on wherein the prayers of the mortals keep the gods alive and empowered so that they might be able to effectively counter whatever monstrosities. Monotheistic beliefs such as the Abrahamic religions, Tolkien's legendarium (again, very much based on his belief in the Catholic faith), several Native American religions and reportedly most African religions (though I have not studied this much) all have all-powerful monotheistic entities that don't need anything from us and can't be affected by us much at all. Such monotheistic entities don't need help from humans to come back into the world (Cthulhu) and they aren't put to sleep like the blind, idiot demon-sultan (Azazoth). They are literally All-Powerful and capable of doing whatever they wish to do as adverse Lovecraft's creatures which bound, sealed, and so on. That said. The Lovecraft entities compare fairly equivalently in limits to the gods and other entities of pantheistic mythologies.

Conclusion

It is up to the individual author how strong any god is in comparison with other gods, however, there is nothing in the Cthulhu mythos that necessitates Lovecraft's being supreme over things like the Greek gods, Sauron or so on. The Lovecraftian entities have conceptually the same sort of powers and characteristics common the mythological entities for thousands of years. There is nothing exceptional about their power level as compared to that of other gods, demons and angels and indeed even Azazoth falls short of the power levels shown in monotheistic religions.

There is only one thing that sets Lovecraftian style entities apart from other pantheons: the relationship with people.

In most pantheons, humanity was created specifically by a creator entity and several laws of behavior were handed down. Thus, while the gods or God are, indeed, supremely powerful, alien entities, they have an image that is easier to relate to than that of the majority of the Lovecraftian entities. In Lovecraft's storyline, humanity is an accidental byproduct of the experiments by the Elder Things. They didn't pop up right away, evolving out of the various forms of life that came to be when the Elder Things' experiments went crazy. As such, the entities of that setting have had little to no contact with humans and have almost no relation in terms of morality or imagination with humanity as a whole.

So, while the Cthulhu mythos entities aren't any more powerful than the Greek Gods or Titans, the Lovecraftian entities don't see humans as fun little playtoys, but rather tend not to think about them at all, or perhaps think of them just as a sort of vermin. Their deprecations against humanity as a result are largely incidental to their other actions rather than deliberate acts of evil. Unfortunately, it also means that they don't see a need to rain in their power the way the gods of other settings would in order not to break their cool stuff.

[Starbuck_II]

Well, I sort of expressed wrong when I said 'dumb as dirt'.

They just don't care. There never would be a fight between Big C and Sauron, because Sauron would launch his most powerful magiks at Big C, and Cthulhu would wave his hand around like a gnat bit him.

Please, the Ghostbuster defeated without any injury Big C..

[Selrahc]

That is not Dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die.


Even the death of threads...

[Roland St. Jude]

That is not Dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die.

Even the death of threads...
Indeed.

Sheriff: Thread necromacy is disfavored. Please review the Forum Rules and avoid reviving old (or ancient) threads.