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Rift_Wolf
2007-12-05, 05:41 AM
I've read a lot of threads regarding balance, especially wizard vs fighter, useless rogues and CoDzilla. And it seems like my party is the exact opposite.
In our party we have;
A Human Fighter who basically destroys everything before we can get a chance.
A Human Cleric who has resigned himself to the heal slave position.
A Gnome Druid who rides his dire weasel companion and has only cast a few decent spells in five sessions.
A Phanaton Scout/Ranger who does massive skirmish damage and regularly has hide checks in the mid 30's
An Aventi Paladin who does reasonable damage, but has yet to use his mount effectively (He took Deinonychus)
An Aquatic Elf rogue who isn't specced for searching or disabling devices (But is good at hiding) and uses tumble to get into flanking positions.

We're 7-8th level, and when I say the fighter kills everything, it is everything. In the time I've been with the group he's killed two gargantuan monstrous centipedes, some mummies (After the clerics turn check failed), a black pudding (The DM was merciful and fudged some of the rolls because we'd all lost armour and weapons), monstrous crabs and a gargoyle king (Which had DR 5/adamantine). He's survived a 140ft drop and a cave-in with almost no lasting harm. We're currently fighting a monkey demon thing that can apparently go invisible and teleport at will. It's pretty much a given the fighters going to kill it. Our DM regularly despairs as he's done 50 damage in one hit before.
On a sidenote, I'm playing the druid and it's difficult to get anything really done. My direct damage spells never get any play because of the fighter. I don't use wild shape often, because there's never any real need to. I've rolled up a LG dwarf wizard (Evocation, Necromancy&Enchantment banned)with item creation feats (And Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus Evocation), because we need an arcane caster (Our last one quit the group). I want to be useful to the party, but I don't want to end up being the Batman either. Any tips?

Rigon
2007-12-05, 05:50 AM
As for the paladin i would rather call the mount Raptor or Velociraptor. As far as i know they are exactly the same type/size(/stat) so why bother with a name which is so hard to spell/pronounce (for me anyway).

And i think that a gnome druid is a joke worth a laughter or two...

Nebo_
2007-12-05, 06:44 AM
You say you don't wildshape because there's no need to? Y'know that if you did, you'd probably be better at killing things than the fighter is? Direct damage spells aren't all that good for a druid, you're better off buffing yourself.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-05, 06:47 AM
Or, if you want to be effective and let the fighter keep his spotlight, buff the fighter.

Baxbart
2007-12-05, 06:51 AM
Velociraptors and Deinonychus were not the same size, and would not have had the same strength and speed either.... but as far as D&D goes, I guess they would fall into the same 'large' category...

For the purpose of a game, who cares if you go a little 'Jurassic Park' (And by that I mean hideously mess up any realistic representation of a dinosaur...) and call it a Raptor... just invoke the age old 'Its magic, deal with it' clause and you're fine :P

Otherwise, working out the ramifications of trying to ride upon a creature that moves on two legs and relies on a long tail for balance.... would just be a nightmare. You stick a paladin on there with armour, and it would fall over unless it was considerably larger.

But... whatever...

Just out of interest though, what build does the fighter use? Does he consistantly deal high damage, or is he a charger?

Also, as a druid, how are you specced? Have you tried to be quite broad in abilities, or have you focused your feats on getting summoning/casting/shaping up? As far as I see it if the Cleric is a heal-b*tch, that makes the druid most likely to be secondary Tank. I don't know if you have access to the MM's for shifting options, but I can see a time coming when the fighter gets overwhelmed by numbers and can't battlefield-control, and you're gonna need something tough to take up the slack.

Drascin
2007-12-05, 07:52 AM
Velociraptors and Deinonychus were not the same size, and would not have had the same strength and speed either.... but as far as D&D goes, I guess they would fall into the same 'large' category...

Actually, if I remember my dinos right, the Velociraptor was more fit for Small, Medium tops if you wanna go by length (as dromaeosaurids tend to be fairly long due to the tails) - a Velociraptor Mongoliensis's head would not reach higher than the average human's chest, tops.

Deinonychus, on the other hand... those were more or less of human height, and, again, long due to their tails, so somewhere between Medium and Large.

As you see, nowhere near ridable, in any case. I'd suggest going for an Utahraptor - it's an standard dromaeo, but much bigger and stronger)

Now, please, excuse the nitpicking, and go on ^^u.

Baxbart
2007-12-05, 08:05 AM
Yeh, I'd probably agree there actually. Deinonychus had a good couple of feet length extra compared to the Velociraptor.. but then i'm not overly familiar with how the d20 system categorises size (by longest dimension, I guess).

If all else fails... get a T-rex :smallbiggrin:

Khanderas
2007-12-05, 08:19 AM
Yeh, I'd probably agree there actually. Deinonychus had a good couple of feet length extra compared to the Velociraptor.. but then i'm not overly familiar with how the d20 system categorises size (by longest dimension, I guess).

If all else fails... get a T-rex :smallbiggrin:
My DM wouldn't let me have a raptor, so I picked a T-rex:smalltongue:

Holocron Coder
2007-12-05, 08:26 AM
Yeah, even though this doesn't answer anything:

Utahraptor - 6.5m long, 2m tall (debatable ridable)
Megaraptor - 8m long, 3m tall (ridable, but is NOT a raptor! Claw is on its hand)

Ganurath
2007-12-05, 08:50 AM
I've rolled up a LG dwarf wizard (Evocation, Necromancy&Enchantment banned)with item creation feats (And Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus Evocation), because we need an arcane caster (Our last one quit the group). I want to be useful to the party, but I don't want to end up being the Batman either. Any tips?Well, you've already taken several steps in the wrong direction.

1. You specialized in evocation. As the Logic Ninja points out in his Batman guide, direct damage is pointless if you have a decent Fighter. Given how good your party's fighter is, this is true even if you don't want to be Batman.

2. You banned necromancy. I understand that you may not want to raise undead minions, especially for flavor reasons, but necromancy has some potent debuffs. They'll be crucial when the DM finally finds something that the Fighter can't smash.

3. You've invested heavily in item creation feats. With the exception of Scribe Scroll, which comes automatically with the class, I would advise against investing in such a feat unless its a prerequisite for another featCraft Construct or you plan on using it a lot. Saved gold is all well and good, but not at the cost of a feat slot that could be used for metamagic or the like.

Advice: Change your specialization to either conjuration or transmutation, and swap out necromancy from the banned schools for evocation. Do some serious rehashing of the feats. Take max ranks in Spellcraft and call me in the morning.

its_all_ogre
2007-12-05, 08:59 AM
a deinon- is not strong enough to be a mount for a medium race in full armour. i looked it up for my campaign and the fact it has only 2 legs means its ability to carry is based on strength alone, whereas a horse or other quadruped is doubled.

Baxbart
2007-12-05, 09:03 AM
Just another reason to trade in that ol' Deinonychus for a T-Rex! :smallbiggrin:

Helios Sunshard
2007-12-05, 09:14 AM
well... it was going to be posted anyway (as in almost every other thread :smalltongue: ) Here is the Logic Ninja guide for wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500)

Saph
2007-12-05, 09:26 AM
That's because when people on D&D forums talk about class X being more powerful than class Y, they usually, for some reason I've never quite figured out, pick 20th-level as a baseline.

At level 20, fighters do indeed suck. However, you're playing at level 7-8, where fighters are quite a respectable class. Not at the top of the pack for power, but not at the bottom, either, meaning that a well-played fighter will contribute a lot more than an averagely-played cleric or druid.

A lot of the complaints about balance I see on this forum come from people who - to be blunt - just haven't thought through what they're talking about. Level matters. Classes rank differently at different levels. Skill matters even more. A good player will contribute more than a bad one no matter what class he's playing. So to say that "Class X will always beat Class Y" with no qualifiers is wrong pretty much by definition.

In short, your group isn't topsy-turvy - it's normal. In the average D&D game, played by a mixture of optimisers and roleplayers somewhere between 3rd- and 10th-level, fighters and rogues do just fine.

- Saph

Baxbart
2007-12-05, 09:40 AM
In short, your group isn't topsy-turvy - it's normal. In the average D&D game, played by a mixture of optimisers and roleplayers somewhere between 3rd- and 10th-level, fighters and rogues do just fine.

- Saph

Very true.... In fact, the last session I played in; our group consisted of two human greatsword-fighters, one dwarf greatsword fighter, and a pyromaniac rogue who tried to convince us she was a paladin and then proceeded to torch a small village...

But... thats my group... We never get much done in game sessions.

Prophaniti
2007-12-05, 10:00 AM
In short, your group isn't topsy-turvy - it's normal. In the average D&D game, played by a mixture of optimisers and roleplayers somewhere between 3rd- and 10th-level, fighters and rogues do just fine.

- Saph

That's very true, and a point I keep making and am ignored. In one of my groups, around level 9, the most dangerous characters (to the DM) are the (foolishly allowed, I told him not to) half-ogre War Hulk and the Deepwood Sniper. Our resident mage comes in a close second, but that's as primarily a blaster. She's caused a lot of havoc and destruction doing exactly what a wizard was intended to do. I run another melee fighter in this group, a Knight, and hold my own with the Paladin, but am blown completely away by the damage the powergamer does with his half-ogre. (I do have the most hit-points in the party though... by a lot, and to be fair the half-ogre has almost died numerous times.)

In the group I DM, the most threatening character is probably the phsycic warrior (duh) but the party seems very balanced over-all, despite having multiple arcane casters. The rest of the party still feels useful and gets to contribute on a consistent basis. As I said, the game is only as terribly imbalanced as people say when you're dealing with theoretical situations, which usually involve someone saying "Contingency, Time Stop, game over" or some variation of that.

Counterspin
2007-12-05, 12:28 PM
The core non-blaster offensive spells are the ones that ruin encounters and overpower things. Your big ogre guy can splat a single member of the opposing team, but your wizard could use dominate person to remove that person as a threat AND add them to your side. Not to mention that the wizard could then keep that enemy as a pet forever. And that's about the weakest option they have. The wizard has already had solid fog for two levels for pete's sake!

A wizard does not have to go into some crazy build or use noncore spells to be overpoweringly good. Their primary class ability is the capacity to disable two or more enemies of their own CR or higher during a single turn, without those enemies having to be standing within 10ft of each other, something that is pretty much unique to primary spellcasters.

Prometheus
2007-12-05, 01:19 PM
This may seem obvious to some people, but to others it really isn't. Many DMs forget that enhancement bonuses (or any two bonuses of the same type except dodge and luck) don't stack. When they do this, they tend to make melee classes vastly more powerful. If they don't stack, and you have Guantlets of Ogre Power and a belt of Giant Strength +4, you can only get +4 to Str, not +6. That rules mistake probably wasn't made but it was reminiscent of another campaign.

Rift_Wolf
2007-12-07, 06:21 PM
Well, you've already taken several steps in the wrong direction.

1. You specialized in evocation. As the Logic Ninja points out in his Batman guide, direct damage is pointless if you have a decent Fighter. Given how good your party's fighter is, this is true even if you don't want to be Batman.

2. You banned necromancy. I understand that you may not want to raise undead minions, especially for flavor reasons, but necromancy has some potent debuffs. They'll be crucial when the DM finally finds something that the Fighter can't smash.

3. You've invested heavily in item creation feats. With the exception of Scribe Scroll, which comes automatically with the class, I would advise against investing in such a feat unless its a prerequisite for another featCraft Construct or you plan on using it a lot. Saved gold is all well and good, but not at the cost of a feat slot that could be used for metamagic or the like.

Advice: Change your specialization to either conjuration or transmutation, and swap out necromancy from the banned schools for evocation. Do some serious rehashing of the feats. Take max ranks in Spellcraft and call me in the morning.

I chose Evocation as it seemed to be the most no-nonsense and straightforward school; I thought about conjuration, if only I had a compendium which worked out the stats of the celestial/fiendish monsters you summon....
Necromancy seemed like a 'bad-guy' school. Not just in terms of it's evil, but the spells seems to be more about lowering levels, creating evil creatures, trap the soul, etc. rather than working against NPCs. They seem more like ways of scuppering PCs. Sure I lose Finger of Death etc. but I'd rather use more evo.

I've taken max ranks in Spellcraft (A skill the group is sadly lacking), concentration, speak language (I don't CARE if comprehend languages/tongues renders this moot, you have to touch a creature to understand them and it's a spell slot that could be filled with blasty things instead), with 5+ ranks in Knowledge (Arcana & Planes) and Craft (Blacksmithing, Leatherworking, Tailoring). I took Item Creation feats because It fitted my character; a Dwarf Wizard Master-Crafter. I did take Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus (Evo)

As my druid was the first character I played, it wasn't really specced for much useful. I just decided I wanted to ride my animal companion, got told a dire weasel was a good choice, so I chose that and took mounted combat and ride-by attack. After a few fights I now know this doesn't work (Maybe if I'd built a more strength orientated druid). I think if my wizard dies I'll try to build a better druid, or maybe a mounted ranger, or something.

And I totally agree on the subject of Deinonychus/Velociraptors. You can't ride one!

Solo
2007-12-07, 06:28 PM
I thought about conjuration, if only I had a compendium which worked out the stats of the celestial/fiendish monsters you summon....

You don't summon things if you're a wizard. You cast spells that do bad things to people. BAD THINGS!

Read The Logic Ninja's guide and learn.

Moff Chumley
2007-12-07, 06:41 PM
I thought the point to creating a relativly non game-breaking wizard was by not being batman. Once you know how to do something, you are 100% more likely to do it.

Kaelik
2007-12-07, 06:54 PM
Evocation is the worst school.

Why is it an either or? You don't have to specialize, and even if you do you should only have 2 schools banned, that means you should still have acces to most schools.

Necromancy messes people up. Messing people up is what Wizards are good at. Debuffs are awesome, but super debuffs that actually remove people from the fight are even better.

Conjurations best effects are things like the Cloud spells or Glitterdust, that impose conditions, not summoned monsters.

Look at spells that have awesome conditions, Damage is not good. Read Logic Ninja I guess, It's a pretty good place to start.

As for Druids, Druids turn into Bears. Period. Druids turn into Bears and then cast spells. They don't ride anything.


I thought the point to creating a relativly non game-breaking wizard was by not being batman. Once you know how to do something, you are 100% more likely to do it.

Batman doesn't have to be game breaking even in lower powered games, in fact, the specific guide mentions many things to not do because you will be too powerful.

Secondly, your statement is insanely wrong. Most people on this forum know how to make Batman Wizards, or at least could get the basics down. And yet most don't. Many even like to play Wizards, but use their knowledge of what is too powerful to keep themselves in line. Also, 100% more likely? As in they are absolutely going to do it? Or it doubles their chances? It considerably more then doubles the chances since it takes you from a one in a million (unless that thing is breaking a Druid, that's only one in two) to being able to if you want to.

Yami
2007-12-07, 07:42 PM
Hehe, Rift Wolf, you are awesome. I love the blasty spell-slingers and even adore the sorcerer, so I shall offer my advice. ^_~

At 7-8th level you have access to the Orb line of spells. Now I know thier conjuration, not Evo, but they are good. Also I would suggest grabbing metamagic rods and pearls of power with your starting wealth to best supplement blasty magery.

you might also want to scribe a bunch of useful scrolls that you wont need usually, but might come up. A good example would be scribing orb of force to get around Spell Resistance and elemental Immunities.

There is a spell out there that is.... 4th level I beleive, my apologies for not looking it up at the moment, that is a swift action greater mirror image. This would be one of your best bets for personal defense, just in case your enemies have range or your front line falls through.

While fireball and lightning bolt are decent enough 3rd level spells, I would save your 4th level slots for something more utility. Cone of cold is nice, but since you already have fire and lightning under your belt, I'd think Evard's tentacles or the previously mentioned orb of force my be better.

Mage armour is of course, something you nab for a level 1 spell, and if possible, you might think about using it 3 times a day, so that your never unarmoured, but you may wish to just have magic missle or other more useful spells supplied there. The idea behind a blaster though, is to never waste time buffing in combat. Grab only the buffs you can have set up before hand, or that are swift. Then, when the time comes to fight, beat the fighter at his own game and tear up the scenery while your at it.

If you need more advice, just ask and ignore those who think your build is poor. Granted, you might be able to bring more to the fight with other builds, but then you didn't pick those builds so I'll do what I can.

Solo
2007-12-07, 07:59 PM
If you need more advice, just ask and ignore those who think your build is poor. Granted, you might be able to bring more to the fight with other builds, but then you didn't pick those builds so I'll do what I can.

If you're going to ignore dissenting opinions, why ask at all?

Yami
2007-12-07, 08:17 PM
Let's see... the OP ask how to do something better, and the reply is don't do it? seems rather unhelpful. He posted saying that he liked Evocation, and he's still being told to dump it. Seem unhelpful to me.

Give him the advice he wants, not the advice you think he needs. That's all I'm saying.

Solo
2007-12-07, 08:52 PM
Let's see... the OP ask how to do something better, and the reply is don't do it? seems rather unhelpful. He posted saying that he liked Evocation, and he's still being told to dump it. Seem unhelpful to me.

Give him the advice he wants, not the advice you think he needs. That's all I'm saying.


I want to be useful to the party, but I don't want to end up being the Batman either. Any tips?

We are giving him advice to be more useful to the party. That is the advice he asked for.

psychoticbarber
2007-12-07, 09:30 PM
We are giving him advice to be more useful to the party. That is the advice he asked for.

Okay, that's all well and good, but Batman isn't for everybody or for every game. I think that once he's said he likes Evocation, you can figure out how to help him be a better Evoker. I generally just don't like the tone involved, the whole "You're doing it wrong." tone, that sort of implies if he doesn't play Batman he's somehow wrong.

Solo
2007-12-07, 09:32 PM
It's not wrong for him to play an Evoker, but he would be mure useful if he knew some good spells outside of blasting ones.

Dode
2007-12-07, 10:06 PM
So you want to be more effective in your group?

You're a druid that doesn't use Wild Shape? Start using Wild Shape.

You're a Wizard that plans to focus in Evocation? Focus on Transmutation, Enchantment or Necromancy instead.

Ganurath
2007-12-07, 10:22 PM
Give him the advice he wants, not the advice you think he needs. That's all I'm saying."Friends teach you what you want to know. Enemies teach you what you need to know."

If you want to play a blaster, I would advise you go for the Warmage from Complete Arcane rather than Wizard. Warmage not only makes things go boom a lot, but gets to wear armor while doing it.

The_Snark
2007-12-07, 11:45 PM
If you want to play a blaster, I would advise you go for the Warmage from Complete Arcane rather than Wizard. Warmage not only makes things go boom a lot, but gets to wear armor while doing it.

I, er... I have to reccomend against that, actually, and not just for the usual reasons. I speak from experience, here: they're simply not all that amusing to play, nor are they that good.

At high levels, ironically, they start catching up, because by that time, they have an impressive repertoire of spells with some solid high-level ones (Acid Fog, Disintegrate, Earthquake, Sunbeam/Sunburst, Waves of Exhaustion, Implosion, Wail of the Banshee, and the Prismatic spells, most notably). But at low levels, you aren't going to be doing all that much damage, especially when your friends do things that interfere with your blasting, like getting into melee.

If you really (really) like blasting, they're okay, but I'd just be a sorcerer and take a few staple damage spells, such as the Orbs. Half of the spells on the warmage's list, you will never use. And you have to go looking through a book to see your spell list, which can slow down play.

On the wizard- I'd agree with the people telling you to un-ban Necromancy. It has a lot of good spells that hinder your enemies: Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation (level loss is devastating to a PC, but even the temporary penalties can be very bad for NPCs), Ray of Exhausion, Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion, Fear... Think carefully before you give that one up.

Rift_Wolf
2007-12-08, 07:51 AM
I'm getting a bit annoyed with people saying I'm playing the game wrong. If all Druids are good for is Wild Shape, why not roll a Lycanthrope monk instead? Same bab, HD and skill points, but without all that annoying 'nature' stuff like the spells and animal companion.
If evokers are weak, then why was my party screaming for some long range ice/fire damage when fighting a black pudding? Battlefield control seems to be a method of being the Batman. Isn't it better to assist in fights rather than dominating them? Seeing as fights are pretty much 'Let the Fighter handle it' at the moment, I wouldn't want to turn it into 'See if disintegration succeeds' or 'Wait until the wizard finishes the fight'. It should be 'The fighter's busy over there, I'm gonna wail on the ones range-attacking or healing'. I've bought a few utility spells as well; Alarm, for instance, is all kinds of useful in the right hands (Cast it on the campfire, no need for night-watch. Cast it on the scout, now insteadly if he's in trouble.), and Explosive Runes is fun(Write it on every door. Goodbye evil stalking monster), and soon as I get back into town I'll buy Greater Invisibility etc. Right now I've got mostly blasty spells.

Armads
2007-12-08, 08:00 AM
I second the warmage comment. Boots of Swift Passage + Greater Fireblast is made of win. Especially with Metamagic and stuff from MIC. My friend once made an ECL 10 Warmage, who could deal 153 +a few d6s worth of damage in a 30ft radius. Also, Mass Fire Shield's an excellent group buff, so you still can buff your allies. Sure, you aren't as good as Batman, but you have a huge number of spells per day, and can blast.

Starsinger
2007-12-08, 08:09 AM
I'm getting a bit annoyed with people saying I'm playing the game wrong. If all Druids are good for is Wild Shape, why not roll a Lycanthrope monk instead? Same bab, HD and skill points, but without all that annoying 'nature' stuff like the spells and animal companion.
If evokers are weak, then why was my party screaming for some long range ice/fire damage when fighting a black pudding? Battlefield control seems to be a method of being the Batman. Isn't it better to assist in fights rather than dominating them? Seeing as fights are pretty much 'Let the Fighter handle it' at the moment, I wouldn't want to turn it into 'See if disintegration succeeds' or 'Wait until the wizard finishes the fight'. It should be 'The fighter's busy over there, I'm gonna wail on the ones range-attacking or healing'. I've bought a few utility spells as well; Alarm, for instance, is all kinds of useful in the right hands (Cast it on the campfire, no need for night-watch. Cast it on the scout, now insteadly if he's in trouble.), and Explosive Runes is fun(Write it on every door. Goodbye evil stalking monster), and soon as I get back into town I'll buy Greater Invisibility etc. Right now I've got mostly blasty spells.

You aren't exploiting rules, cheating, or abusing vague mechanics in a way that ruins the game for everyone else, therefore regardless of what's on your sheet, you're not playing the game "wrong." Speaking as someone who loves playing Evokers (well actually Sorcerers who learn alot of evocation spells, since I dislike wizards) I understand your pain. While it's one thing for people to say "Batman wizard is better", I whole-heartedly agree that it's quite another for them to say "You should dump your Evoker for a Batman". Especially when, and I'm not sure if people ignored this or didn't see it, you specifically said you don't want to be Batman.

As for how to blast better? Precise shot is your friend if you're going to be throwing alot of rays, orbs, or other ranged touch attacks. You might want to look into the Archmage Prestige class, master of shaping and master of elements are particularly valuable for blasters.

Try and maintain a decent variety of damage types among your blasts. I know early on your choices are mostly fire.. But keep an eye out for blasts of other damage types. It's not a requirement at the beginning, but Lightning Bolt is useful when you get Archmage's master of elements, since it is, notably, the only (I believe) core spell with a line shaped effect. Chain lightning's a pretty nice spell too.

As an evoker, the prime rule of spellcasting "Never lose caster levels" applies extra to you. Your ability to damage is tied directly into your level, so be very very certain it's what you really want if you choose to take a level in something that doesn't increase your caster level.

Look into scrolls for spells that are useful enough to have a scroll or two on hand (Knock, Teleport, Plane Shift, etc.) but not necessarily something you definately need to scribe into your spellbook. Likewise, keep an eye out for wands of spells that you cast often (like Mage Armor) but don't really have the spell slots to cast repeatedly.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-08, 08:23 AM
I'm getting a bit annoyed with people saying I'm playing the game wrong. If all Druids are good for is Wild Shape, why not roll a Lycanthrope monk instead? Same bab, HD and skill points, but without all that annoying 'nature' stuff like the spells and animal companion.
If evokers are weak, then why was my party screaming for some long range ice/fire damage when fighting a black pudding? Battlefield control seems to be a method of being the Batman. Isn't it better to assist in fights rather than dominating them? Seeing as fights are pretty much 'Let the Fighter handle it' at the moment, I wouldn't want to turn it into 'See if disintegration succeeds' or 'Wait until the wizard finishes the fight'. It should be 'The fighter's busy over there, I'm gonna wail on the ones range-attacking or healing'. I've bought a few utility spells as well; Alarm, for instance, is all kinds of useful in the right hands (Cast it on the campfire, no need for night-watch. Cast it on the scout, now insteadly if he's in trouble.), and Explosive Runes is fun(Write it on every door. Goodbye evil stalking monster), and soon as I get back into town I'll buy Greater Invisibility etc. Right now I've got mostly blasty spells.

I'll try to answer some of the questions you asked here.
first, by all means play as you like, but if you want to be efficient then these people indeed do offer good advise.

A druid isn't just good for wildshape, but wildshape is a powerful class feature and not using it is less effective then, well, using it.
If you instead of the fighter were the one destroying everything, then gimping yourself would be a good idea, since you are actually not very useful according to your self, using wildshape and assisting the fighter on the front line wouldn't be a bad idea.

So why do people say evocation is weak? Well the orb spells(conjuration) work fine as direct damage, they are so good in fact that many argue that there is no need for evocation at all if you have these orb spells and shadow evocation(illusion). These orbs would have definitely helped against the black pudding.

Not specialising in evocation does not make you a batman wizard. Also throwing around save or die spells is not the only thing a batman wizard can do, it can also buff the fighter and debuff his enemies so that his job will be easier. This way you will be assisting the fighter instead of overshadowing him.

Utility is nice(I'm a big fan myself) and blasting can be great fun, but having a good mix of spells is probably better then "mostly blasting spells".

Rift_Wolf
2007-12-08, 08:55 AM
Well the orb spells(conjuration) work fine as direct damage. These orbs would have definitely helped against the black pudding.



Orb spells? Which spells are these? Are they Core? I just checked D20SRD and found only only conjuration spell with an 'orb' in the description was Acid Splash.

Dhavaer
2007-12-08, 09:02 AM
Orb spells? Which spells are these? Are they Core? I just checked D20SRD and found only only conjuration spell with an 'orb' in the description was Acid Splash.

They're in Complete Arcane and the Spell Compendium. Conjuration, levels 1 and 4, ranged touch attack, respectable damage and do not allow spell resistance.

Drascin
2007-12-08, 09:42 AM
Seriously, if you wanted to be a blaster, playing a druid is not the best choice. It's not that you're playing the game wrong - just that you picked the wrong class. It's like saying, "okay, I'm gonna do a subtle illusionist-type" and picking cleric - yeah, you can pull it off, but why make such an effort when there are things like the beguiler that make it so much easier? :smalltongue:

Anyway, on to the topic. My personal recommendation, based on experience, for a better blasting fun? Forget Wizard and go Psion. It's in the SRD too. Y'see, psions blast quite better than most wizards, on the grounds of being able to tailor their energy spells to the enemy in front of them. This means you have the possibility of blasting pretty much anything while wasting very few known powers, which gives you the possibility of getting a nice amount of "Plan-B" type powers for when exploding face is not recommended. And Energy Missile, which is one of the most handy blasts in the game, due to the fact that it doesn't hit friends if you don't want it to, but still targets more than one enemy (up to five)

Also, if you're willing to get Untapped Potential (it's a 6 $ PDF, so it's not really that expensive) and your DM approves, you can later qualify for Energist, a kind of Blast-Archmage for psions who gives you the ability to mix and match energy types, cause freezes and burns and other lingering effects along with its explosions, and other things. I can go on a bit more if you wish.

The drawbacks?

First, psions burn their daily reserves quickly. Really quickly. Any augmentation of power points you can get your hand onto, any supplemental psicrown, anything, will be more valuable than a hundred acres of land for you.

Second, the non-blast powers are, generally, a bit inferior to the ones in the wizard list (on the basis that the wizard is totally busted and the psion not so much :smalltongue: ) and you'll have to pseudo-especialize by obligation.

Solo
2007-12-08, 01:23 PM
I'm getting a bit annoyed with people saying I'm playing the game wrong.

Cause you are.:smalltongue:


If all Druids are good for is Wild Shape, why not roll a Lycanthrope monk instead? Same bab, HD and skill points, but without all that annoying 'nature' stuff like the spells and animal companion.

Druids are good because they have Wildshape, a powerful animal companion, and are, on top of all that, full casters with 9th level spells.



If evokers are weak, then why was my party screaming for some long range ice/fire damage when fighting a black pudding?

Evokers are not weak, but rather, weaker than builds that don't focus entirely on blasting and which use utility and save or X spells.


Battlefield control seems to be a method of being the Batman. Isn't it better to assist in fights rather than dominating them?

"Batman" could assist fights if he chooses. Part of being Batman is buffing the party though things like GMW, Heroism, and helping the party by debuffing the enemy (Enervation, Ray of Enfeeblement, Waves of Exhaustion)


Seeing as fights are pretty much 'Let the Fighter handle it' at the moment, I wouldn't want to turn it into 'See if disintegration succeeds' or 'Wait until the wizard finishes the fight'.

So exercise some self control and don't use/cast your most powerful spells right off the bat. Hold them until you run into something the fighter can't handle.

Granted, you may have poor self control, and may not be able to resist standing in the fighter's limelight, in which case I don't know how to help you find more self control.


It should be 'The fighter's busy over there, I'm gonna wail on the ones range-attacking or healing'.

A legitimate strategy.


I've bought a few utility spells as well; Alarm, for instance, is all kinds of useful in the right hands (Cast it on the campfire, no need for night-watch. Cast it on the scout, now insteadly if he's in trouble.), and Explosive Runes is fun(Write it on every door. Goodbye evil stalking monster), and soon as I get back into town I'll buy Greater Invisibility etc.

Good for you.


Right now I've got mostly blasty spells.

And I would advise that you diversify by a lot.

Yahzi
2007-12-08, 03:35 PM
I'm getting a bit annoyed with people saying I'm playing the game wrong.
Um... you're the one who told us you weren't happy with the way you were playing the game.


If all Druids are good for is Wild Shape,
That's not all they are good for. They are good for Wild Shape into something and then casting spells.


If evokers are weak, then why was my party screaming for some long range ice/fire damage when fighting a black pudding?
A Batman wizard has a scroll or wand or Shadow Evocation for when those (rare) needs arise.


Seeing as fights are pretty much 'Let the Fighter handle it' at the moment, I wouldn't want to turn it into 'See if disintegration succeeds' or 'Wait until the wizard finishes the fight'.
Then you need to fix the fighter, not your character.

You can't stop the fighter from dominating fights without dominating them yourself.

Starsinger
2007-12-08, 06:00 PM
Um... you're the one who told us you weren't happy with the way you were playing the game.

He also said he didn't want to be the Batman wizard...

Dode
2007-12-08, 06:27 PM
He also said he didn't want to be the Batman wizard... An Effective Wizard does not equal "Batman". I heard no suggestions for Celerity, Forcecage, and other hallmarks of the build. Not specializing in one of the weaker and most limited schools available is not game breakingly powerful.

The OP came into this thread complaining about being overshadowed by the fighter and asking for advise on how build a more effective caster. And then proceeded to get defensive when being told that focusing in Evocation and not using his class abilities is a bad idea. I wash my hands of trying to help someone who clearly doesn't actually want help.

Rift_Wolf
2007-12-08, 08:15 PM
There seems to be some misunderstanding over this. My druid isn't very good because it's my FIRST character. Other than NWN, I haven't played D&D before. Admittedly I chose a difficult class to use on account of not being sure which route to take it down; I chose mounted combat because I liked the idea of it, but now find it's not working as well as I'd hoped (The paladin is much better at mounted combat, but there isn't much room for it in a dungeon) so I've rolled up a new character. The party needed an arcane caster, so I rolled one up. Evocation seemed to be a good choice as it was direct and didn't involve much fiddling with; Necromancy didn't appeal and enchantment just seemed like a screw. My second choice would've been Transmutation because later on you get Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate and some good buffs, but I thought evocation was a good backup spell because there's very few fights where not blowing stuff up is useful.
Maybe it's my own playing style. I play Green and Red decks in M:TG. I like direct damage. Given the choice, I'd attack straight on. A weakened enemy is still an enemy. A smoking crater isn't. If someone suggests I take a more direct damage class like rogue or fighter, those positions are already taken. Evoker is the wizard class that suits my style, I guess, and we needed a wizard or sorceror, and sorcerors don't have as many skill points to spend in crafts (I like having at least one craft skill), have a limited spell selection, and aren't as adaptable. I suppose I should've phrased my question 'How do I play an Evoker well'.

Yami
2007-12-08, 09:26 PM
As an Evoker, and furthermore as a wizard, your biggest problem will doubtlessly be your limited spells per day. With such a huge selection of spells to prepare, you'll probably want to set up a default spell selection that you prepare everyday, usually with a nice variety of damage.

Before leaving on any long dungoen crawls I would suggest scribing some backup spells. A few scroll of your heaviest hitters can really save you if you get caught low on magic, and sometimes you might want a utility spell, but might not want to waste a spell slot for it every day.

I'd also suggest having little more than half your spells being evocation. That way you can test out the occasional utility, buff or debuff spell just to see if you like them any more, plus there are some nice non evo damaging spells. Not to mention the nessesity of defense.

Solo
2007-12-09, 01:47 AM
There seems to be some misunderstanding over this. My druid isn't very good because it's my FIRST character. Other than NWN, I haven't played D&D before. Admittedly I chose a difficult class to use on account of not being sure which route to take it down; I chose mounted combat because I liked the idea of it, but now find it's not working as well as I'd hoped (The paladin is much better at mounted combat, but there isn't much room for it in a dungeon) so I've rolled up a new character. The party needed an arcane caster, so I rolled one up. Evocation seemed to be a good choice as it was direct and didn't involve much fiddling with; Necromancy didn't appeal and enchantment just seemed like a screw. My second choice would've been Transmutation because later on you get Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate and some good buffs, but I thought evocation was a good backup spell because there's very few fights where not blowing stuff up is useful.
Maybe it's my own playing style. I play Green and Red decks in M:TG. I like direct damage. Given the choice, I'd attack straight on. A weakened enemy is still an enemy. A smoking crater isn't. If someone suggests I take a more direct damage class like rogue or fighter, those positions are already taken. Evoker is the wizard class that suits my style, I guess, and we needed a wizard or sorceror, and sorcerors don't have as many skill points to spend in crafts (I like having at least one craft skill), have a limited spell selection, and aren't as adaptable. I suppose I should've phrased my question 'How do I play an Evoker well'.

0) Be a sorcerer if possible. You should have been a sorcerer for blasting.
1) Grab all the classic blasting spells.
2) Grab the Orb of X Spells, and other non evocation spells that deal damage. Melf's Unicorn Arrows are good. No SR and no save.
3) Grab spells like Enervation that reduce target's defenses against your spells.
4) Head into Archmage for Energy Substitution, or grab the feat Energy Substitution to get more variety out of your damage spells. I suggest Energy Substitution: Acid, as you don't see many acid spells.
5) Grab Arcane Thesis for an Orb of X spell. Arcane Thesis Empowered Maximized Twinned Fireball ftw!

Yami
2007-12-09, 02:23 AM
Solo speaks with much wisdom here, for sorcerers are more the blasty type. Wizards just have too few spells per day and thier vast capacity for diversity usually leads down the path of the batman, given time.

Resist the temptation Rift_wolf
~_^

Solo
2007-12-09, 02:47 AM
Solo speaks with much wisdom here, for sorcerers are more the blasty type. Wizards just have too few spells per day and thier vast capacity for diversity usually leads down the path of the batman, given time.

Resist the temptation Rift_wolf
~_^

Join the Dark side. We have cookies.

Talic
2007-12-09, 02:54 AM
Evocation specialist? Try Focused Specialist Substitution level. Give up another school (Abjuration?), get a crapload of evocation, and have fun with battlefield shaping spells.

Alternately, go illusionist focused specialist, bar evocation, necromancy, and (enchantment or abjuration). Battlefield shaping again, fun times.

It's not a batman build, and it lets other people use the strategic advantages you give them, whether its archery protection with Wind Wall, cutting off charge/escape routes with various other walls, trapping with Grease, Wall of Fire, or the like, and use Mirror image and invisibility and the like to keep safe. As long as none of your shaping spells don't directly hurt an enemy when you cast them, you can keep an invisibility up for a LONG time. Wall of stone and wind wall are great examples of this.

Good combo for groups with a couple powerhouses, as most of the threat focus will be on the obvious threat, rather than the invisible wizard that creates and dismisses barriers, seperates the baddies, and lets that group chew them up piecemeal.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-09, 07:45 AM
There seems to be some misunderstanding over this. My druid isn't very good because it's my FIRST character. Other than NWN, I haven't played D&D before. Admittedly I chose a difficult class to use on account of not being sure which route to take it down; I chose mounted combat because I liked the idea of it, but now find it's not working as well as I'd hoped (The paladin is much better at mounted combat, but there isn't much room for it in a dungeon) so I've rolled up a new character. The party needed an arcane caster, so I rolled one up. Evocation seemed to be a good choice as it was direct and didn't involve much fiddling with; Necromancy didn't appeal and enchantment just seemed like a screw. My second choice would've been Transmutation because later on you get Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate and some good buffs, but I thought evocation was a good backup spell because there's very few fights where not blowing stuff up is useful.
Maybe it's my own playing style. I play Green and Red decks in M:TG. I like direct damage. Given the choice, I'd attack straight on. A weakened enemy is still an enemy. A smoking crater isn't. If someone suggests I take a more direct damage class like rogue or fighter, those positions are already taken. Evoker is the wizard class that suits my style, I guess, and we needed a wizard or sorceror, and sorcerors don't have as many skill points to spend in crafts (I like having at least one craft skill), have a limited spell selection, and aren't as adaptable. I suppose I should've phrased my question 'How do I play an Evoker well'.

Well, I actually understand how you feel, I started playing D&D through computer games myself, and I also thought blasting was pretty awesome, so the first time I played D&D I made a blaster wizard, as I like magic, skill points and blowing stuff up. Now we started at level 1, which could make a big difference(I don't have a lot of experience myself), but basically I was worthless, the monk died and the people of the giantitp forum(of which I had never heard back then) were (experimentally)proven right.
I'm now playing in a different group and there's a wizard who knows what he's doing, our first battle went like this:
Wizard: cast sleep
Druid: cast entangle
K, fighter guys, mop 'm up
I just works that much better.

Also asking for a good evoker build wouldn't have helped, people would have just screamed DON'T anyway.

Zenos
2007-12-09, 08:05 AM
I agree that banning necro is bad, and blasting is not very effective. Ban evocation instead and use shadow evocation when you get it. Maybe specialize in divining so you only have to ban evocation, or specialize in transmutation or something. The polymorph line can make you a real powerhouse and there are many buffs and several save-or-die spells there (stoneskin, flesh to stone, etc).

Drascin
2007-12-09, 09:12 AM
I agree that banning necro is bad, and blasting is not very effective. Ban evocation instead and use shadow evocation when you get it. Maybe specialize in divining so you only have to ban evocation, or specialize in transmutation or something. The polymorph line can make you a real powerhouse and there are many buffs and several save-or-die spells there (stoneskin, flesh to stone, etc).

Thing is, he really doesn't want to ban Evocation and he's already mentioned it a few times - he wants to make things explode, a lot. So please, stop telling him to, and let's help him blast better instead!

I personally still say Wiz is not the best choice for this, Rift_Wolf, 'cause Sorcs have much more endurance and Psions blast very much better (and also have a nice skill list depending on your school), but if you really want to go Wizard... well, I'll see what I can do to help.

First, much of what Solo mentions is gold. Supplementing evocations with a few Orbs of X for those enemies with high saves is a must, and Arcane Thesis will pay off a lot if applied to your favorite blast. Metamagic is your friend.

Get a few weakening spells, especially those that will lower the target's saves, SR, or energy resistance. It's not much fun to see the enemy come without a single singe from your discharge.

Master Especialist (Evoker) levels are probably good - I don't have my book with me at the moment, but there were interesting abilities, and you enter the class at level 4 or so, so you lose precious little.

When I get home, I'll go trhough a few books and see what I can recommend in terms of feats and spells.

Zenos
2007-12-09, 11:45 AM
Yeah, I guess he would be better off as a sorcerer or generalist. Maybe just specialize in divination and ban enchantment?

turkishproverb
2007-12-10, 12:30 AM
Join the Dark side. We have cookies.

Ah, but those cookies cause nightmarish side effects.

Also, never underestimate enchantment