Strongarm Bracers+Monkey Grip; +2 weapon sizes or unstackable +1 weapon size?

[Morphic tide]

The relevant text of each feat:


When wearing strongarm bracers, you can wield weapons as if you were one size category larger than normal.


You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change.

Them stacking for +2 sizes follows this parsing:

1. Strongarm Bracers increases your size by one category for wielding weapons
2. Monkey Grip checks your size for the purpose of wielding weapons, allowing you to use a weapon one size larger than you
3. Therefor, you may use a weapon two sizes larger as Monkey Grip checks your Strongarm Bracers size

Them not stacking for two different ways to +1 size follows this parsing:

1. Strongarm Bracers allows you to wield weapons "as if you were" one size category larger than normal
2. Monkey Grip checks "your size" to state you can "use" a weapon one size larger than that
3. You cannot combine these as Monkey Grip checks your size independently of weapon-wielding

[Crake]

By the text, I’d say that they parse together fairly well. However, the feasibility of wielding a huge sized greatsword would be what comes into play in my games.

Two handed weapons are the same size category as their wielder, so a huge greatsword would be 15ft long. In a 5ft corridor, I would probably be applying the squeezing penalties to your attacks, just because you'd be clanking against the walls constantly.

An alternate option would be a large, alchemical platinum bastard sword, which is effectively a fullblade, that deals 3d8 (13.5 av) damage, as opposed to the 4d6(14 av) of a large greatsword, while being much more compact, and also leaving you with the option of wielding it two handed without taking the -2 from monkey grip, as youd only need to monkey grip when one handing.

All while still technically using a “normal” sized weapon. Any other character would just be completely incapable of wielding the sword.

Actually, i just realised an additional benefit, which is that, if you were to ever lose your strongarm bracers for some reason, you COULD still wield it 2h with monkey grip at -2, wheras your huge greatsword becomes completely unusable.

[Morphic tide]

Having oversize two-handers use Squeezing rules where an appropriate creature wouldn't fit is a nice touch of cross-applying rules for realism and avoids shenanigans with calling them selectively via Animate Object by making it an always-on constraint. Does make Reach weapons a lot touchier since you "clearly" have the added length to work with.

Using a one-size-over Heavy Bastard Sword is an interesting way to avoid the vulnerabilities of Soulmelds while also cutting back this constraint, which is one of those edge-case optimizations I love to see "click" without needing to divert from what you were doing anyways.

[Crake]

Does make Reach weapons a lot touchier since you "clearly" have the added length to work with.

Reach weapons are typically designed with that in mind though, as they’re generally polearms, allowing for much more precise motion of the weapon’s edge, and for more thrusting motions, or sharp slices, rather than swinging, so being in a narrow space doesnt particularly impede them. They also arent generally THAT long, a polearm is maybe only a foot taller than a person, most of its reach qualities come from its lighter weight and balance allowing for the weapon to be pushed much further out in front of the weilder, into a stance where say, a greatsword would topple you forward.

[Rebel7284]

The general consensus that I have seen in past discussions is that they don't stack. With that said, it wouldn't break anything if they did.

[Crake]

The general consensus that I have seen in past discussions is that they don't stack. With that said, it wouldn't break anything if they did.

Really? I have the opposite experience.

[Darg]

Really? I have the opposite experience.

I have the same experience.

[Fero]

My play group allowed it so my swordsmen could weild an absurdly oversized 2H sword anime style. It was fun but mechanically pretty weak.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I have the same experience.

I also have similar experience to Crake.

Also, having extremely big swords is cool, and I can apply rule 0.5 to have them allowed if they don't break the game balance-wise, which they don't.

[Gorthawar]

Weapon sizing is totally inconsistent in D&D. Even with a huge greatsword a medium character will only have 5ft reach whereas the 4ft gnome ranger I was playing had 10ft reach with his small lance.

That aside adding monkey grip and strongarm bracers is ok in our group. It's really not that strong and spellcasters as usual do it better with greater mighty wallop.

[Returnip]

We did this in a game, where a player played an ogre and took the monkey grip feat to wield a ballista (huge heavy crossbow).

I think for the sake of the original question however I'd say they don't stack. Because "monkey grip" says:

"You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are..."

And "strongarm bracers" say:

"When wearing strongarm bracers, you can wield weapons as if you were one size category larger than normal."

The bracers doesn't say you are in fact one size larger, and the feat specifically refers to your actual size.

[Morphic tide]

Reach weapons are typically designed with that in mind though, as they’re generally polearms, allowing for much more precise motion of the weapon’s edge, and for more thrusting motions, or sharp slices, rather than swinging, so being in a narrow space doesnt particularly impede them. They also arent generally THAT long, a polearm is maybe only a foot taller than a person, most of its reach qualities come from its lighter weight and balance allowing for the weapon to be pushed much further out in front of the weilder, into a stance where say, a greatsword would topple you forward.
I meant the bit where you still have your size's Reach, so a Huge Longspear, being an object occupying 15 ft. that would add 15 ft. for a Huge creature, would be liable to cause some arguments about it still only giving +5 ft. Reach. Especially with some of the body-modifying stuff that gives you more Reach by genuinely lengthening your limbs.


The bracers doesn't say you are in fact one size larger, and the feat specifically refers to your actual size.
No, it refers to "one size category larger than you are" without any qualifiers, and as such it may "see" your for-weapon-wielding size from Strongarm Bracers. Were it not for the example clarifying that it refers to the intended size of wielder, it could actually be argued that you could use a +3 sizes Light weapon via Monkey Grip, as then the size of the weapon as an object would be one larger than you. I will continue to insist that both are valid RAW interpretations indefinitely. Or at least until someone can break down grammatical analysis to demonstrate one is a tautology.

[Returnip]

I meant the bit where you still have your size's Reach, so a Huge Longspear, being an object occupying 15 ft. that would add 15 ft. for a Huge creature, would be liable to cause some arguments about it still only giving +5 ft. Reach. Especially with some of the body-modifying stuff that gives you more Reach by genuinely lengthening your limbs.


No, it refers to "one size category larger than you are" without any qualifiers, and as such it may "see" your for-weapon-wielding size from Strongarm Bracers. Were it not for the example clarifying that it refers to the intended size of wielder, it could actually be argued that you could use a +3 sizes Light weapon via Monkey Grip, as then the size of the weapon as an object would be one larger than you. I will continue to insist that both are valid RAW interpretations indefinitely. Or at least until someone can break down grammatical analysis to demonstrate one is a tautology.

From the feat description (source arkalseif):

"You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are.."

A discussion on rpg stackexchange regarding Goliath race and monkey grip feat also points this out:

"The reason they don't [stack] is that both the racial trait and the feat reference your normal size category."

[Morphic tide]

From the feat description (source arkalseif):

"You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are.."

A discussion on rpg stackexchange regarding Goliath race and monkey grip feat also points this out:

"The reason they don't [stack] is that both the racial trait and the feat reference your normal size category."

There is no qualifier of "normal" size category that would necessarily exclude the conditional "as if you were" nor does Strongarm Bracers use "A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty" or similar.

The only way they do not stack RAW is for Monkey Grip's size check to not touch weapon-wielding, because if it does then Strongarm Bracers kicks in.

[ShurikVch]

They also arent generally THAT long, a polearm is maybe only a foot taller than a person, most of its reach qualities come from its lighter weight and balance allowing for the weapon to be pushed much further out in front of the weilder, into a stance where say, a greatsword would topple you forward.
Pike (weapon) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)):

The pike was a long weapon, varying considerably in size, from 3 to 7.5 metres (10 to 25 feet) long.
Storm Giants (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#stormGiant) are 21' tall...

[Darg]

From the feat description (source arkalseif):

"You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are.."

A discussion on rpg stackexchange regarding Goliath race and monkey grip feat also points this out:

"The reason they don't [stack] is that both the racial trait and the feat reference your normal size category."

Racial traits and the feat don't consider you one size larger. They just let you use larger weapons. The bracers are different. They give you an actual effective size increase and because of that size increase you are treated as a size larger by the rules under that condition.

[Crake]

Pike (weapon) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)):

Storm Giants (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#stormGiant) are 21' tall...

I did say generally for a reason.

[Velaryon]

It's never come up at my table, but I would allow it. If the player is willing to invest in a weak feat like Monkey Grip purely for style, I see no reason to punish them even further for it.

[Morphic tide]

It's never come up at my table, but I would allow it. If the player is willing to invest in a weak feat like Monkey Grip purely for style, I see no reason to punish them even further for it.
The key thing is that it brings the +2d6 Gargantuan breakpoint for 1d12 and 2d6 weapons in reach of Enlarge Person, and a 7th-level PsyWar can augment Expansion to use Colossal weapons to hit +2d8 on 1d10-at-Medium weapons like the Heavy Crossbow, Glaive, and Bastard Sword.

In other words, them stacking lets Monkey Grip be -2 to attack for +7 or +9 average weapon base damage, which is a significant value as far as Martial feats are concerned.

[Chronos]

RAW, I don't think that they stack, but I agree with others that it wouldn't break anything (except possibly verisimilitude, but that depends on what style of game you're running) to rule that they do stack anyway.

[Crake]

The key thing is that it brings the +2d6 Gargantuan breakpoint for 1d12 and 2d6 weapons in reach of Enlarge Person, and a 7th-level PsyWar can augment Expansion to use Colossal weapons to hit +2d8 on 1d10-at-Medium weapons like the Heavy Crossbow, Glaive, and Bastard Sword.

In other words, them stacking lets Monkey Grip be -2 to attack for +7 or +9 average weapon base damage, which is a significant value as far as Martial feats are concerned.

Yeah, but it also comes with all the issues of size increases in a game where most combats take place in confined spaces, and also remember the size increases also come with reduced AC from both size and lost dexterity

[SirNibbles]

Neither bonus has a type mentioned. They are therefore untyped bonuses and stack unless stated otherwise. The exact wording of the bonus doesn't matter: effective size for the purpose of wielding weapons +1 category.