Echo knight/cleric? Grave Domain? Or other spiritual guardians focussed cleric?

[Hiro Quester]

I just started playing (2 sessions in) my second character of the campaign, an echo knight 5/barbarian1. I was heading for Ancestral guardians 3 /Echo knight the rest.
My character joined the party because I needed to find a cleric of the goddess who shepherds souls to the afterlife, the party's Twilight Cleric. Backstory reasons do do with helping my dead ancestors whose spirits I carry with me in my tattoos, because they have been prevented from passing to the afterlife.

We immediately had this dungeon to deal with, though, full of vampires and torturers (the ones who killed my previous character) led by what is probably a Death Cleric. So we haven't been able to talk yet.

And in our last session, the Twilight cleric flew off by himself across a ravine where the enemies baited him to go, into an area that nobody else could see or hear. He got overconfident, tried to tough out rather than run from an encounter with a bunch of casters and vampires, and was earthbound, grappled, bitten and attacked, dropped to 0 hp, then stabbed, and affected by a vampire in some way nobody yet understands, and his body hauled off. The rest of the party only saw the last round of that, and were too far away across a ravine to do anything.

He's probably dead. Or worse (I suspect DM is going to make this twilight cleric turned vampire into another minion for the Death Cleric we're up against).

So now our party lacks my character's motivation for joining the party.

So now we don't have a cleric. And the player of the Cleric is interested in a damage-dealing class like ranger or barbarian.

For story reasons, to do with several characters' backstories, having a Cleric who is concerned with souls getting to the afterlife is sort of important for our party and the overall campaign. We could do without a cleric, I guess, but it would be difficult both for game mechanics and story reasons.

My character could leave to find a different cleric of this goddess to help their quest, and I could introduce a different character. I'm not yet super-invested in this one. It's fun, but not really exciting.

But I could also (with DM's okay) just pray really hard to the goddess, and perhaps recommit the barbarian level to cleric, and then continue as a fighter/cleric.

My character's backstory leads perfectly to grave domain. And Grave domain vs. Death domain sounds like a thematically fun match. And instead of ancestral guardians barbarian fluffed as my ancestors coming out to harry enemies, that same story-fluff lends itself well to Spirit guardians. And the synergy between echo and spiritual weapon (fluffed as another dead ancestor coming to attack our enemies).

The twilight cleric never used spirit guardians, because twilight sanctuary was too good. I want to build around Spirit guardians.

SoI have choices.

1. Stay as echo knight/ancestral guardians barb. It's' reasonably fun, and will be more so as we level up. Complicated enough to keep me amused. But I really feel the lack of any spell casting. This is the first non-caster I have ever played (played bard, druid, warlock, wizard). And the party probably needs a cleric for story as well as tactical reasons.

2. Redesign around keeping the echo knight, but abandon barbarian in favor of cleric. That seems like it could be fun. I can stay in the center of spirit guardians, while my echo goes around making weapon attacks (and maybe using crusher to knock enemies back into the Sprit guardians).


2.a. Echo knight with grave cleric would fit the backstory best. But the potent spell casting seems a little wasted if echo knight is using weapon attacks. Perhaps a way to grab booming blade would be cool (magic initiate for that and lightning lure to pull folks into SG, and maybe shillelagh). Would booming blade, shillelagh and potent spallcasting all stack their damage?

2.b. Echo knight with a different cleric domain. War, light might work. DM is usually open to home brewing things like custom domains. e.g. The god who is the boatman who takes souls to the afterlife also has the Travel, Loss, and Defense domains, which DM would home-brew if someone wanted to worship that god. It would work story-wise.


3. Go straight cleric. Build around Spirit guardians in some other cool way.



Any suggestions or build ideas are very welcome

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

This may be a complete nonsense suggestion, but... what if you gave your character sheet to the cleric player, then rolled a Grave cleric for yourself? If he wants something damage-y like a barbarian, Echo Knight/Barbarian seems to handle that pretty well.

[Hiro Quester]

This may be a complete nonsense suggestion, but... what if you gave your character sheet to the cleric player, then rolled a Grave cleric for yourself? If he wants something damage-y like a barbarian, Echo Knight/Barbarian seems to handle that pretty well.

That's not actually crazy. I suggested it myself as a possible option after your session yesterday. But I think he wants a different flavor.

Oh, one other relevant factor, though. I had this echo knight/AG barbarian already designed for a different campaign that four of us play in (one of our players DMs the other game). So I suggested it as my replacement character for this campaign. Dm said it was good.

But the DM just started playing an Echo knight in that other campaign. And it turns out, after I had already played this character, DM told me that his echo knight was also intended to multi class with AG barbarian.

That the DM is playing that same class combo (with a different backstory and flavor) might be another good reason to abandon this echo knight/AG barbarian and adjust it slightly or create another character altogether. Even though it's in another campaign, it's a bit too much like playing in someone else's lane.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

So yeah, with those two pieces of information, and the fact that the Grave cleric works in this campaign from a flavor perspective, I'd probably just go straight Grave cleric.

[CTurbo]

If you're already 6th level with 5 levels of Fighter, it would be a long time before you even got Spirit Guardians.

I'd consider a full class Grave Cleric or take a small Fighter dip for Con saves, heavy armor, and warhammer.

I wouldn't bother with Booming Blade on a character with 2 attacks per round except maybe an Eldritch Knight. Plus Booming Blade comes at a cost.

Speaking of which, a Grave Cleric with 3 levels of Eldritch Knight would be pretty good and you'd have Spirit Guardians 2 levels earlier. EK gets you Booming Blade and some other Wizard spells.

[Hiro Quester]

Hmmm. Eldritch knight isn’t a terrible dip. If you are going fighter 2 for action surge, the 3 gets you 3 cantrips (incl booming blade) as well spells like find familiar, shield and absorb elements.

it would not get sprit guardians early, but it will get you higher level spell slots a level early, to upcast your spells with.

I like the extra attack and mobility options with echo knight, though. Esp if you take crusher so your echo can be knocking enemies back into your spirit guardians.

But still…. Building it I keep getting drawn to straight cleric. Delaying spirit guardians is like delaying extra attack on a fighter.

[Psyren]

Why not go Arcana Cleric? That will get you spirit guardians and booming blade without any delay.

Story-wise, the thing interfering with souls and the afterlife could be a magical phenomenon, or someone (the villain or even you) could be concerned with enabling or preventing the souls' use as a power source of some kind.

[CTurbo]

Hmmm. Eldritch knight isn’t a terrible dip. If you are going fighter 2 for action surge, the 3 gets you 3 cantrips (incl booming blade) as well spells like find familiar, shield and absorb elements.

it would not get sprit guardians early, but it will get you higher level spell slots a level early, to upcast your spells with.

I like the extra attack and mobility options with echo knight, though. Esp if you take crusher so your echo can be knocking enemies back into your spirit guardians.

But still…. Building it I keep getting drawn to straight cleric. Delaying spirit guardians is like delaying extra attack on a fighter.


You COULD start Fighter 1, Grave Cleric 5, and then take 2 more levels of Fighter at some point.

Starting Fighter 1 is a great dip for medium armor Cleric subclasses. You get Con saves, +2 AC, and to a lesser extent, martial weapons.

Resilient(Con) is almost feat tax for any Cleric wanting to really lean into Spirit Guardians.

[Hiro Quester]

Arcana cleric is indeed a reasonable option, for booming blade and mind sliver hot reduce their save against the spirit guardians damage the enemy is about to make). But the other spells and abilities until 17th level seem… meh.


You COULD start Fighter 1, Grave Cleric 5, and then take 2 more levels of Fighter at some point.

Starting Fighter 1 is a great dip for medium armor Cleric subclasses. You get Con saves, +2 AC, and to a lesser extent, martial weapons.

Resilient(Con) is almost feat tax for any Cleric wanting to really lean into Spirit Guardians.

this isn’t a bad plan. Fighter 1/cleric 5/fighter+2/ cleric +X. Whichever type of cleric I play.

Especially if I’m starting at 6th or 7th level. Get SG up and running, and at 7th level have an action surge for a round in which I can hit a few times. Then take each knight subclass. Echo can make a second attack when I take the attack action. With the crusher feat, that’s a few enemies knocked into the area of spirit guardians on my turn.

Imho, trading the 20th level ability that I’d use for one ultimate bodies fight, for the ability to have fun knocking enemies into my SG for my whole career, seems a good trade.

[da newt]

BA 2nd wind healing and a fighting style are nice little add-ons too (for a fighter 1/cleric X).

Echo Knight is a very interesting subclass - so many fun things you can do with it. Grave Cleric is a great subclass too.

I think your biggest issue is trying to stuff too many things into one PC. I'm not sure the synergy is really there for a fighter 3 (or 5 for multi attack) cleric X, that isn't less than a single class would be.

You said your DM is very homebrew friendly - maybe ask if you can collaborate to create a cleric subclass that is echo knight (cleric chassis instead of fighter) and eliminate the MC?

[Hiro Quester]

Perhaps this is trying to do too much. I'm considering fighter 3 for flavor and fun, and also a bit of optimization that might make playing a cleric who concentrates on SG still has interesting things to do.

In addition to fighting style (defense, probably), heavy armor, martial weapons and action surge, having an echo seems a far superior version of Spiritual Weapon. It can move 30 feet, and I can make any of my attacks from that position. It can also hit again when I take the attack action conmod times per long rest.

And with the crusher feat it can move an opponent 5 feet in any direction. Including on opportunity attacks on folks trying to leave the area of SG. That knock back might mean they can't leave the SG effect, since their movement is halved in the area.

So it can become similar in effect to a combination of a faster-moving and potentially harder-hitting (with Divine Strike) spiritual weapon and the telekinetic feat's telekinetic shove, for making enemies also take SG damage on my turn as well as on theirs.

It takes my action to make these attacks instead of BA telekinetic shove and dodge as my action. And the Dm being home-brew friendly, one relevant god has the Defense domain (which would need to be homebrewed). And one candidate version of that includes being able to dodge as a bonus action after you cast a spell or cantrip.

So it seems like it might be fun to play. Perhaps it might be fun enough to delay higher level spells for a few levels. That's what I'm still trying to think through.

[Hiro Quester]

Update: I'm also looking at other ways besides Echo knight with crusher to get forced movement on a cleric to use SG to good effect.

e.g. Nature cleric with thorn whip and telekinetic feat. Move to where an enemy is 5 ft outsides SG, and another enemy is 10 feet outside. Telekinetic shove the first enemy into SG as a bonus action. thorn whip the other enemy and pull them 10 ft into the SG.

3 levels of Swarmkeeper ranger with Archery fighting style (with any Cleric subclass). Use a ranged weapon to attack an enemy within 30 feet. If you hit, your swarm can move them 15 feet into your SG. Also works with telekinetic shove.

2 levels of warlock with grasp of hadar for 10 ft movement pull. Pact of the chain gets you a familiar which can use the help action to give you advantage on the attack. But you use charisma as the attack stat, which is limiting.

Of these the first is pure cleric, which is optimal for progression of spell slots to upcast SG.

The fighter probably has more 1st and 2nd class features that are generally useful. But the 15 ft movement from swarmkeeper massively increases the number of enemies you can drag into the area of SG.

[Arkhios]

If you want something crazy, ensure you've got both high con and wis (preferably 20 each), make echo knight/war cleric, and use a heavy melee weapon (or ranged weapon, doesn't really matter which), and take the feat to be able to "power attack".

Fighter 19/Cleric 1 split should do the trick. Comes online as early as 4th level, as an echo knight 3/war cleric 1. At this point, you'll have CON mod per long rest one additional attack whenever you take the Attack action, and WIS mod per long rest bonus action attacks.

Imagine you're a Fighter 5/Cleric 1. With maybe CON 16 and WIS 16. You use the Attack Action to make two attacks, one additional attack from Unleash Incarnation, and a bonus action attack from War Priest. Then you use the Action Surge to take another Attack Action for two attacks, and again you are eligible to make that additional attack from Unleash Incarnation, because it's a separate Attack Action. So, within just one turn, you have made 7 attacks, all with a heavy melee/ranged weapon, applying your attack ability modifier on all damage rolls, and using the -5 to Hit/+10 to Damage feat, on all of seven of them. This gets crazier once you get the second extra attack at fighter 11. And even more crazy once you get the second action surge within one short rest. At that point, you're able to make at least 25 attacks within just 5 consecutive turns, if you have both CON and WIS 20.

[Hiro Quester]

If you want something crazy, ensure you've got both high con and wis (preferably 20 each), make echo knight/war cleric, and use a heavy melee weapon (or ranged weapon, doesn't really matter which), and take the feat to be able to "power attack".

Fighter 19/Cleric 1 split should do the trick.

That does look like a fun build. A War Cleric dip on a fighter can be a great idea. But our party needs a cleric.

So I'm trying to think of a fun way to make good use of Spirit Guardians, while still having lots of good Clerical utility/buff/control/debuff options, too. Considering the possibility of a fighter (or maybe ranger) dip as a way of doing that.

At the moment, pure Nature Cleric with telekinesis and thorn whip seems like a good way to go, to not delay Cleric casting, but have fun options for pulling enemies into SG.

Plus nature cleric also gets plant growth, to make moving out of the SG area even more difficult. That might not always be party-friendly, though.

They also get Grasping Vine that can pull enemies 20 ft towards you as a bonus action, right before you cast SG. That can be very useful for making sure a far-away enemy gets caught in your SG. It's a shame that spell requires concentration, though.

[CTurbo]

One of my very many build ideas was a build that was built around Spirit Guardians and grappling. The key feature here would be to get Expertise in Athletics either from 1 level of Rogue or the Skill Expert feat. You grapple one or two enemies and their speed becomes 0 and therefor cannot get out of your SG range. My idea involved being either a Lizardfolk or Minotaur so I could make a full attack without having to worry about a free hand.

Thinking outside the box, a Lore Bard can get SG at level 6. A Str Lore Bard would make a great grappler/SG user. Hold down an enemy and scream in their face(Vicious Mockery) while beating them up with your SG.

[Hiro Quester]

One of my very many build ideas was a build that was built around Spirit Guardians and grappling. The key feature here would be to get Expertise in Athletics either from 1 level of Rogue or the Skill Expert feat. You grapple one or two enemies and their speed becomes 0 and therefor cannot get out of your SG range. My idea involved being either a Lizardfolk or Minotaur so I could make a full attack without having to worry about a free hand.

Thinking outside the box, a Lore Bard can get SG at level 6. A Str Lore Bard would make a great grappler/SG user. Hold down an enemy and scream in their face(Vicious Mockery) while beating them up with your SG.

Grappling could also be a way get minions to help keep creatures in a SG. Like Animate Dead to get a zombie minions who could grapple someone to keep them in a SG field. Or grapple and drag or shove someone just outside the field even.

[Arkhios]

That does look like a fun build. A War Cleric dip on a fighter can be a great idea. But our party needs a cleric.

To be fair, Fighter beyond 5th level is just gravy. One Extra Attack and Action Surge once per short rest is quite enough for this gimmick. You could go War Cleric 15/Echo Knight 5 just as well, being a cleric for your party.

And to be honest, Manifest Echo and Unleash Incarnation are amazing* on their own, so you don't absolutely need more than just 3 levels in echo knight if extra attack isn't that relevant for you (personally though I would take at least 5 levels in fighter, because extra attack is worth it).

*I'm playing one myself, currently Echo Knight 4/Wizard 1, and I haven't felt that I'd absolutely need Extra Attack, at least not yet. Then again, I rolled pretty well and I have CON 18, so I've got what it takes to use Unleash Incarnation almost all the time.