Player with High AC

[Barbarian Horde]

I am in need of some advice. I have a player in my campaign who has created a character with an excessively high Armor Class (AC). While I understand that this player is attempting to build a tank character, I am concerned that they are not being properly challenged in combat encounters.

I do not want to design encounters solely based on this player's strengths, as it would not be fair to the rest of the party. I am looking for suggestions on how to balance encounters to challenge this player while still keeping the encounters balanced for the rest of the party.

I would appreciate any advice or suggestions you may have to offer. Thank you in advance for your help!

[Paragon]

Encumber him and kite him ; bad move speed is really hard to get around.

Spells are probably his Achilles heel. Armor lock or Grease should do wonders leaving the rest of the party have fun while the tortoise is taking hits

[ciopo]

How high AC and at what levels are we talking about? AC generally plateaus around 9th level and then doesnt improve "much" after that, and at higher CR bruiser creatures have quite the high to hit bonus besides.

That is to say, it's probably a problem that "solves itself" as they level up

To give you crunchy numbers, I remember I had around 32 or so AC at level 6ish, and I was mostlyonly hit on a nat 20. Now that we're level 19 my AC improved to "only" 45 or so... and my own animal companion would hit me on a 2

I could probably push for 49-52 or so AC, that would still be only a 30% or so chance for my own animal companiin to hit me (he's a 20HD dire polar bear with a slew of buffs cast on him)

[Elkad]

First, you don't want to completely ruin his thing.

You wouldn't throw monsters immune to magic at the wizard every encounter either.

But you can do it occasionally. An encounter that is all touch attacks for example. (if he's armor based, not dex-based).

Or a grapple encounter (also touch attacks, but it feels different).

As mentioned, you can control him out of the fight. Grease is one way.

If he's getting his AC from buffs, a couple targeted Dispels will change things up.

If it's buffed gear (Magic Vestment, Dancing shield, Defending armor spikes, etc) a Chain Dispel aimed at most of his visible gear will take a large portion of it offline - either until buffs are recast, or 1d4 rounds in the case of actual magic items.

Remember to do the opposite as well though. Make AC the star of the show sometimes. Put a single bruiser up that CAN hit him with some sort of reasonable frequency, and then have it lock onto him.
He'll get to tank it, feel like his investment was actually worthwhile, and be the star of the encounter - while everyone else pokes it from behind. Give it scads of hitpoints, or a bunch of immunities, so the fight lasts a while, and it's clear that any other character would be a greasy spot on the floor if they tried to do the same.

And (probably only once in many sessions), DOMINATE him and make the party deal with his AC.

And as mentioned above, as the party levels up, AC tends to become less relevant anyway.

[Endarire]

Crowd control works for various characters. Even warriors may fail their save against web or grease or stinking cloud or a grapple check like against Evard's Black Tentacles.

[Silva Stormrage]

Also there is the other problem of the enemies being smart. They aren't going after the giant warrior wearing full plate they are stabbing the scrawny nerd in the back wearing cloth. There isn't really anyway for him to "Hold Aggro" like a video game unless he goes for a tripper/thicket of blades build.

That isn't to say all enemies should just ignore him, but they shouldn't all gang pile him either.

[Doctor Despair]

Also there is the other problem of the enemies being smart. They aren't going after the giant warrior wearing full plate they are stabbing the scrawny nerd in the back wearing cloth. There isn't really anyway for him to "Hold Aggro" like a video game unless he goes for a tripper/thicket of blades build.

That isn't to say all enemies should just ignore him, but they shouldn't all gang pile him either.

Until he dips Maquar Crusader 1 to force enemies to try to hit him instead

[Crake]

How high AC and at what levels are we talking about? AC generally plateaus around 9th level and then doesnt improve "much" after that, and at higher CR bruiser creatures have quite the high to hit bonus besides.

That is to say, it's probably a problem that "solves itself" as they level up

To give you crunchy numbers, I remember I had around 32 or so AC at level 6ish, and I was mostlyonly hit on a nat 20. Now that we're level 19 my AC improved to "only" 45 or so... and my own animal companion would hit me on a 2

I could probably push for 49-52 or so AC, that would still be only a 30% or so chance for my own animal companiin to hit me (he's a 20HD dire polar bear with a slew of buffs cast on him)

How is your 20hd dire bear getting +43 to hit?

8 bonus HD= +6 bab, 4 bonus strength from druid, 2 from HD, and 6 bonus str from an item, and a +5 amulet of natural attacks only gets their attack bonus up to 36, thats only on 9+

A balor is CR20, and THEY only have 33 to hit, so 12+, Marilith CR17, +25 so need a nat20, Solar is +35, Titan is +37, its only when you go up to a tarrasque of +52 that your AC becomes a problem. I think you need to re-evaluate your baseline my dude. 45AC is not where you think it is on the spectrum of hit chances.


Crowd control works for various characters. Even warriors may fail their save against web or grease or stinking cloud or a grapple check like against Evard's Black Tentacles.

Grapple in general is a good solution, having a strong enemy just grab them will leave the rest of their team free to just walk past, and grapple checks can be used in lieu of attack rolls to deal unarmed damage, so just have like, a chonker bugbear with improved unarmed strike and improved grapple just grab him and start beating the crap out of him.

Dont do it every fight of course, but let him know that just because he has high AC, doesnt make him impervious.

[Jay R]

A. Check his math.

B. Let him have fun with it -- sometimes. From my “Rules for DMs”:

31. When a PC gets a great new ability, there needs to be an encounter in the next session for which that ability is devastatingly effective. Otherwise it doesn’t exist. There should also be an encounter in the next session in which it is useless. Otherwise, the rest of that character doesn’t exist.

[sithlordnergal]

So, before I get into counters to highy AC, I do have some questions:

1) What is his build, and what are his main ability scores?

2) What is his AC?

3) What items is he using to boost his AC?

4) What is the party's level?


Cause AC's worth changes over time. Having a 19 AC from Chain Mail, a Shield, and the Defense Fighting style is NUTS...at levels 1 to 4 when you're facing enemies with a +3 to +4 to hit. Its less impressive when you get to higher levels and start facing things with +6 to +7 to hit, and is worthless when you start fighting things with a +10 or higher to hit.

Additionally, encumbrance could work, but if they're playing a high Strength build, or they're doing playing a Bladesinger with high Dex, Int, Mage Armor, and the Shield spell, that won't do much to help you. And you'll need to use different strategies for each.


That said, a good rule of thumb is use saving throws and ability checks. Or, if they're wearing metal armor, just cast Heat Metal occasionally to watch them fry.



A. Check his math.

B. Let him have fun with it -- sometimes. From my “Rules for DMs”:

31. When a PC gets a great new ability, there needs to be an encounter in the next session for which that ability is devastatingly effective. Otherwise it doesn’t exist. There should also be an encounter in the next session in which it is useless. Otherwise, the rest of that character doesn’t exist.

I agree with this, though I occasionally find B can be tricky. Like...I have a Paladin/Sorcerer that has a base 31 AC due to having a +3 Shield, +2 Plate Armor, Cloak of Protection, and Staff of Power. And I can boost it to 38 via Shield of Faith and the Shield spell. Now it is an AL character, so chances are a DM would not hand those items out to a game...but if a DM does make a mistake like that, its hard to roll it back and challenge said character. Cause Paladins are good at all saves, and with a 31 to 38 AC, there's not much that can hit you.

[SangoProduction]

Simple response: Talk to him.
Say that this is causing a problem and to tone it down. Offer a respec for free.

[Crake]

I agree with this, though I occasionally find B can be tricky. Like...I have a Paladin/Sorcerer that has a base 31 AC due to having a +3 Shield, +2 Plate Armor, Cloak of Protection, and Staff of Power. And I can boost it to 38 via Shield of Faith and the Shield spell. Now it is an AL character, so chances are a DM would not hand those items out to a game...but if a DM does make a mistake like that, its hard to roll it back and challenge said character. Cause Paladins are good at all saves, and with a 31 to 38 AC, there's not much that can hit you.

Dispelling, counterspelling, touch attacks, crowd control without saves (blocking him out of a fight with wall of stone for example), are just a few ways you could challenge such a character. Hell, just a net thrown by a high str character, entangling them, and then dragging them around. Or disarm them. Nobody has all the bases covered.

[icefractal]

While I understand that this player is attempting to build a tank character, I am concerned that they are not being properly challenged in combat encounters.The first thing I'd ask is why you're concerned, because different reasons have different solutions:

A) The player is complaining about lack of challenge, or seeming bored by the lack of challenge.
B) Other players are complaining (or seem bothered, at least) about being overshadowed.
C) The character is so "sticky" that enemies are forced to only target them, and fights thus become easy for the whole party, which is a problem because ...
C1) The other players are complaining about lack of challenge
C2) You don't enjoy running a game where the PCs aren't challenged
D) You don't enjoy running a game unless all the PCs are challenged
E) Something else?

For example "use enough highly-mobile enemies that the one PC can't engage the majority of them" is a solution in case C, but not in case A or D.

Incidentally, I'm not saying C2 / D are wrong, that's a valid preference. I'm just saying that it's important to distinguish "I don't enjoy this" from "this is objectively bad".

[ciopo]

How is your 20hd dire bear getting +43 to hit?

8 bonus HD= +6 bab, 4 bonus strength from druid, 2 from HD, and 6 bonus str from an item, and a +5 amulet of natural attacks only gets their attack bonus up to 36, thats only on 9+

A balor is CR20, and THEY only have 33 to hit, so 12+, Marilith CR17, +25 so need a nat20, Solar is +35, Titan is +37, its only when you go up to a tarrasque of +52 that your AC becomes a problem. I think you need to re-evaluate your baseline my dude. 45AC is not where you think it is on the spectrum of hit chances.


You are correct, I was posting from the phone and didn't have the sheet on hand, Mishka is at +38 ( the 2 more than your math is the enhance familiar, I'm an arcane hierophant), and I was probably remembering the numbers with the bard inspire courage morale boosts

perhabs it's just confirmation bias on my part, latest three encounters I remember hitting "no problem" were elder air elementals, greater stone golems, and some kind of frogman evil outsider whose actual racial name I don't remember.
Plus the campaign "module bosses", but those are probably campaign-modified creatures ( tho I'm fairly sure my GM doesn't mod them, and play everything "as is", otherwise they wouldn't go up in smoke 1/round )

[Jay R]

I agree with this, though I occasionally find B can be tricky. Like...I have a Paladin/Sorcerer that has a base 31 AC due to having a +3 Shield, +2 Plate Armor, Cloak of Protection, and Staff of Power. And I can boost it to 38 via Shield of Faith and the Shield spell. Now it is an AL character, so chances are a DM would not hand those items out to a game...but if a DM does make a mistake like that, its hard to roll it back and challenge said character. Cause Paladins are good at all saves, and with a 31 to 38 AC, there's not much that can hit you.

I'm not saying that sometimes the enemy needs to be able to hit through that armor; I'm saying you need to occasionally have threats for which the AC is irrelevant.

Spells, area effects, poisons, deep mud, rust monsters, psionics, drowning, ... There are lots of attacks that ignore AC.

[Darg]

If he's getting his AC from buffs, a couple targeted Dispels will change things up.

If it's buffed gear (Magic Vestment, Dancing shield, Defending armor spikes, etc) a Chain Dispel aimed at most of his visible gear will take a large portion of it offline - either until buffs are recast, or 1d4 rounds in the case of actual magic items.

Chain dispel doesn't target objects so their items aren't affected. But it would remove shield of faith/barkskin/polymorph/other spell.

[tyckspoon]

Chain dispel doesn't target objects so their items aren't affected. But it would remove shield of faith/barkskin/polymorph/other spell.

Level-level-level strikes again >.>

The poster was likely thinking of Dispel Magic with the Chain metamagic, not the actual spell named Chain Dispel - allows you to target up to Caster Level worth of additional targets with a spell that normally has a single target. Available as metamagic rods, which can make for hyper efficient buffing with things like (Greater) Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment as well as temporarily disabling most of somebody's magic items.

[Barbarian Horde]

I haven't been online since yesterday. Wow, this thread has really taken off!

Anyway, one of my players is playing a fighter who has an armor class that is about 10 points higher on average than everyone else on the team.

I just want to be able to unga bunga him sometimes. I can't do that. If I make mobs able to do that... then the whole party also gets to enjoy that.

I've considered tripping, overruns, and CC

I've even ignored him at times, but I don't want to do that too often because my NPCs choose to move on. (at least, that's how I would handle it if I were in that situation) I've considered adding more cannon fodder to the fights, so he can tank a bunch of mobs and get the satisfaction of doing his job well. Yet this ties into me not wanting to specifically add in things to counter one player. I can do it without ruining his fun, it just makes me feel grimy.

[pabelfly]

I've heard of the idea that half of the encounters people player should face let them play to their strengths, and half should challenge their playstyle. Seems like a good idea to me.

In this case, half of the encounters should not really care about the high AC of the player - they target weak aspects of AC like touch or flatfooted, target weak saves, or even just do damage without checking the AC of the players.

[Aracor]

I haven't been online since yesterday. Wow, this thread has really taken off!

Anyway, one of my players is playing a fighter who has an armor class that is about 10 points higher on average than everyone else on the team.

I just want to be able to unga bunga him sometimes. I can't do that. If I make mobs able to do that... then the whole party also gets to enjoy that.

I've considered tripping, overruns, and CC

I've even ignored him at times, but I don't want to do that too often because my NPCs choose to move on. (at least, that's how I would handle it if I were in that situation) I've considered adding more cannon fodder to the fights, so he can tank a bunch of mobs and get the satisfaction of doing his job well. Yet this ties into me not wanting to specifically add in things to counter one player. I can do it without ruining his fun, it just makes me feel grimy.

It's not a big deal. You should be using a variety of enemies, and not all of them should attack AC. Spells that attack reflex and will saves, attacks that hit touch AC instead of AC, crowd control, aura abilities, damage reflection abilities. There are a MULTITUDE of ways to attack your party.

Don't just think of "If I can hit him, it's too easy to hit everyone else" - Think about how to change up the encounters entirely. Even Tanglefoot Bags may mess up him bigtime.

[Crake]

Don't just think of "If I can hit him, it's too easy to hit everyone else" - Think about how to change up the encounters entirely. Even Tanglefoot Bags may mess up him bigtime.

Another option is to vary the enemies in an encounter as well. If the enemies have one heavy hitter focused on breaking the turtle out of its shell, then the more agile, weaker hitting enemies can focus on his allies.

Also an option is the use of limited use abilities and items. Maybe the enemies throw alchemical fire at the tank, but not at the party, because theyre easier to hit with conventional attacks

[Draconi Redfir]

what my DM did when i built a high-AC focused character was have the enemies targeting me only try to hit me two or three times before deciding i wasn't worth the effort and attempting to attack someone else.

This allowed me to function as a tank while also making sure things weren't too easy. It also forced me to consider repositioning myself or the enemies via bull rush when needed to force myself between the enemies and my allies.



to really make his day, surround him with dozens of small, weak enemies that are just constantly whaling on him and relying on the odd lucky crit to deal any damage. This gives you lots of chances to hit him while also allowing him to live his dream of being all but untouchable.

Also having a situation where there's a narrow door or hallway that he can block and act as a wall in to prevent enemies from passing him would probably be fun too. Give his allies the chance to pick them off from a distance while he keeps them locked away.

[Harrow]

I just want to be able to unga bunga him sometimes. I can't do that. If I make mobs able to do that... then the whole party also gets to enjoy that.

Woah, woah, WOAH. Let's slow down here a little. I understand wanting to challenge your party, but you have to challenge them appropriately. If someone invests a bunch of skill points and feats into scouting, you don't give enemies an arbitrary bonus to stealthy stuff. If a character invests heavily into trapfinding, you don't respond by making traps that are literally impossible to find. And if someone invests a bunch of resources into not getting punched in the face, sending enemies at them that can punch them in the face anyway is kind of a punch in the face.

Don't respond to a character being good at something by trying to make that thing irrelevant. Work around it. A lot of example of how to do that have been posted already. Target touch AC, target saves, don't target him at all but walk around him to stab someone squishier. You say this is a fighter, can you ambush him at night? There are penalties for sleeping in armor. You also might be able to set up a scenario where he needs to climb something or swim somewhere, both situations made much more difficult with armor. Ambush him when he takes it off. Not every time, of course, but once or twice could be what you're looking for.

[Satinavian]

"10 more AC than the others" doesn't sound like a lot unless the others also go out of their way to specialize in AC. That is a benign difference for something to invest in.

I wouldn't counter him much. He is a fighter specialized in defense. Make that unreliable and he becomes basically useless. There should be enough scenarios popping up naturally where a high AC is not the answer, no need to artificially inflate that.

[Crake]

"10 more AC than the others" doesn't sound like a lot unless the others also go out of their way to specialize in AC. That is a benign difference for something to invest in.

I wouldn't counter him much. He is a fighter specialized in defense. Make that unreliable and he becomes basically useless. There should be enough scenarios popping up naturally where a high AC is not the answer, no need to artificially inflate that.

10 more AC is the difference between hitting on a nat 10 and hitting on a nat 20, what do you mean? Thats not a small difference.

If the average enemy has +6 to hit, the average party member has 16 AC, and this character has 26 AC, that is not a small difference

[rel]

I don't think AoE has been specifically mentioned yet. AC doesn't do much to stop a fireball.

[Crake]

I don't think AoE has been specifically mentioned yet. AC doesn't do much to stop a fireball.

Spells with saves have been mentioned several times

[Bucky]

If your encounter is only challenging because of the stats, it's not a good challenge.

Make the fighter do something besides absorb blows. Make him move around. Make him prioritize the targets of his own attacks, because you've thrown identical melee attackers at each PC and he's the "free piece" who's not credibly threatened. Put all the enemies at range, and see what he does about it. And, as the others have mentioned, vary the enemies' attack methods as a matter of course (attack roll vs. touch attack vs. saving throw vs. auto-hit) so that no single defense works against everything.

[Satinavian]

10 more AC is the difference between hitting on a nat 10 and hitting on a nat 20, what do you mean? Thats not a small difference.

If the average enemy has +6 to hit, the average party member has 16 AC, and this character has 26 AC, that is not a small differenceA difference of 10 could be something as simple as a shield with enhancement bonus which the others don't have because they use both hands and a single other moderate additional bonus to ac that the the tank has and the others don't. (E.G. Barkskin). It is basically nothing.
In the last campaign where i have seen someone specifically invest in AC, he was around 20 higher than the rest of the party by lv. 15. And this without cheese or a racial bonus.

[Mordante]

Oftopic:

How do people get such high AC? My character

Standard 10, + 3 dex, +1 natural armour, +6 animated shield, +12 full plate. Total 32 Not sur how to get it much higher. Many AC sources don't stack.

[Gnaeus]

Oftopic:

How do people get such high AC? My character

Standard 10, + 3 dex, +1 natural armour, +6 animated shield, +12 full plate. Total 32 Not sur how to get it much higher. Many AC sources don't stack.

Deflection bonus 1-5
Natural armor enhancement 1-5
Shape shifting +6 alter self (troglodyte), +18 (dwarven ancestor), +a lot polymorph
+1 (or more, dodge bonuses stack) dodge
+1 haste
Possibly a racial NA bonus or size bonus
Some spells or feats or class abilities allow a morale, holy, untyped or other bonus. Like law or chaos devotion.

[Crake]

A difference of 10 could be something as simple as a shield with enhancement bonus which the others don't have because they use both hands and a single other moderate additional bonus to ac that the the tank has and the others don't. (E.G. Barkskin). It is basically nothing.
In the last campaign where i have seen someone specifically invest in AC, he was around 20 higher than the rest of the party by lv. 15. And this without cheese or a racial bonus.

I don't generally include short term buffs into such equations like this, because realistically, that barkskin could a) be cause on the other party members, and b) be easily dispelled by even the slightest investment into dispelling by an enemy caster.

Now, if you have a +4 shield, and a +4 amulet of natural armor ontop of your party on the other hand, that's a significant extra investment ontop of the party, but if everyone has the big six, that includes enhanced armor, natural armor, and a deflection bonus to armor, so really that 10 AC is going to come from things like, wearing fullplate instead of a chain shirt (+2-4 depending on dex), having a heavy shield instead of a buckler (+1), and having 1 or 2 higher bonuses across the board. If a party member is completely missing one of the bonuses in question, I'd say that's that party member falling behind, rather than the tank getting ahead.


Deflection bonus 1-5
Natural armor enhancement 1-5
Shape shifting +6 alter self (troglodyte), +18 (dwarven ancestor), +a lot polymorph
+1 (or more, dodge bonuses stack) dodge
+1 haste
Possibly a racial NA bonus or size bonus
Some spells or feats or class abilities allow a morale, holy, untyped or other bonus. Like law or chaos devotion.

It's really the natural and deflection bonus missing here. If you're rocking a +4 shield and armor, you should at least have +2-3 on each of those as well, which would net you +4-6AC more.

[Biggus]

Deflection bonus 1-5
Natural armor enhancement 1-5
Shape shifting +6 alter self (troglodyte), +18 (dwarven ancestor), +a lot polymorph
+1 (or more, dodge bonuses stack) dodge
+1 haste
Possibly a racial NA bonus or size bonus
Some spells or feats or class abilities allow a morale, holy, untyped or other bonus. Like law or chaos devotion.

A couple of other cheap ones:

Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone +1 Insight, 5,000GP

Crystal of Arrow Deflection (MIC p.25) despite the name is an unnamed bonus, +2 to +5 vs ranged attacks, 500 to 5,000GP

[pabelfly]

This also has some nice ideas to start with, to boost AC: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting

[Rynjin]

I just want to be able to unga bunga him sometimes. I can't do that.

Have you considered...tough noogies? This is not an actual problem, at least not a game one. This is an issue with your mindset. Change it, and the problem disappears.

[Wintermoot]

So I ran into an issue with this is a Pathfinder game I ran. I had one character, a magus, who stacked some spells and items to have a ridiculously high(er) AC.

Bear in mind, in order to do this, its a matter of robbing peter to pay paul. They didn't excel in other areas they should have because they were devoting resources to AC.

So how did I deal with it? Well Pathfinder has some mechanics called Touch AC and Combat Manuevers, both of which bypass some or all of those AC bonuses.

So some encounters, I'd let their high AC "win" meaning they weren't getting hit by the enemies, but every few encounters I'd throw in something that affected him without AC being a factor. A manuever specialist encounter, or a touch AC encounter or something else that bypasses the AC mechanic.

I would assume D&D 3.5 has different but similar alternate systems you can design with

[Satinavian]

Oftopic:

How do people get such high AC? My character

Standard 10, + 3 dex, +1 natural armour, +6 animated shield, +12 full plate. Total 32 Not sur how to get it much higher. Many AC sources don't stack.
Iirc (it has been a while) that particular character had :
base 10
+ 3 dex
+ 8 Mithral full plate
+ 2 heavy shield
+ 10 enhancement armor+shield
+ 4 deflection
+ 4 enhancement bonus to natural armor (amulet of natural armor)
+ 6 natural armor (Iron bones, was a necropolitan undead focused cleric)
= 47
And there was another bonus i actually can't remember pushing it slightly beyond 50, when buffed, i think either dodge or profane.
Now this undead focused cleric had also the enchanted item and armor crafting feats and got nearly all of the stuff for half price, so it was even pretty affordable.


Now, if you have a +4 shield, and a +4 amulet of natural armor ontop of your party on the other hand, that's a significant extra investment ontop of the party,
A +4 shield is only half the price of a +4 off hand weapon this character doesn't use while the natural armor amulet only matches it as well. Sure, a character that invests in a high AC probably pumps more of their money in it than other party members. That is kinda the meaning of "investing in AC".

[RNightstalker]

Oftopic:

How do people get such high AC? My character

Standard 10, + 3 dex, +1 natural armour, +6 animated shield, +12 full plate. Total 32 Not sur how to get it much higher. Many AC sources don't stack.

There are items that enhance natural armor. Ring of Protection grants a deflection bonus to AC. There are many spells that give a random morale or insight bonus to AC, etc. Some classes have bonuses to AC from their stats like a Monk and Swordsage. Also, how do you get a +3 Dex with Full Plate?

[Rynjin]

many spells that give a random morale or insight bonus to AC, etc. Some classes have bonuses to AC from their stats like a Monk and Swordsage. Also, how do you get a +3 Dex with Full Plate?

Mithril?

Or Celestial Plate, same diff.

[Draconi Redfir]

Oftopic:

How do people get such high AC? My character

Standard 10, + 3 dex, +1 natural armour, +6 animated shield, +12 full plate. Total 32 Not sur how to get it much higher. Many AC sources don't stack.


Pathfinder, Dwarf shield fighter.

standard 10, + 11 Armour (+2 mythril fullplate),
+3 Dex,
+6 Shield, (+1 adamantine heavy shield for +3 with Shield focus and Greater shield focus for an extra +1 each, Plus dual-wielding shields so i took the "Two-weapon defence" feat for an extra +1.),
+1 natural (Ironhide feat),
+3 deflection (Ring of protection +3),
+1 trait (Defender of Society trait)
+3 Dodge (Active defence, Shielded fighter ability replacing armour training)

this all leads me to something like 37-38 AC.

And my dual heavy shields are actually two halves of a tower shield, so if i take the total defence action and combine the two halves into the full tower shield form, then that's an extra +4 doge bonus plus the tower shield's AC being 2 higher then a Heavy shield's AC, so add another +2, AND since both heavy shield halfs were +1 (and only one counted for AC, not both), then we had a houserule that the full tower shield was a +2, so that's an extra +1 onto the enhancement bonus. Add all that up and I'm looking at something like 45 AC with full cover on one side. Think there was also some house rule about me not being able to move in this state.

Even then i could have pumped it up further with better enchantments or an amulet of natural armour. Since "Natural" natural armour and "Magical" natural armour stack with one another.


i played this character in two separate campaigns at different levels with different stats and items, so it didn't always add up to the same, but yea.

[Elkad]

Level-level-level strikes again >.>

The poster was likely thinking of Dispel Magic with the Chain metamagic, not the actual spell named Chain Dispel - allows you to target up to Caster Level worth of additional targets with a spell that normally has a single target. Available as metamagic rods, which can make for hyper efficient buffing with things like (Greater) Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment as well as temporarily disabling most of somebody's magic items.

Exactly. I meant metamagic Chain on a regular (or greater, etc) Dispel.

I wasn't even aware of the existence of the spell "Chain Dispel".

[Crake]

A +4 shield is only half the price of a +4 off hand weapon this character doesn't use while the natural armor amulet only matches it as well. Sure, a character that invests in a high AC probably pumps more of their money in it than other party members. That is kinda the meaning of "investing in AC".

I think you missed the point i was getting at in that part of my post, it was that, since prices for bonuses are exponential in cost, its unlikely that you would have a +4 natural armor necklace for example, while nobody else in the party has one at all, its more likely you have a +4 while they have a +2-3. I was explaining why a 10 AC gap is actually representative of a significant bump in investment, despite it “only” resulting in +10 AC

[Mordaedil]

Ways to overcome high AC characters is usually resolved by having a caster on the enemy's side or by using numbers against the character.

A caster can target the character's Touch AC, which is almost always lower. They can also cast spells that target saving throws, which can really adjust their AC as well. Is this character very heavy armored? Web or entanglement are low-level spells and getting entangled can stop them from moving fast and kill their AC by reducing their dexterity by 4.

If you have to rely on martial characters instead, surround them with a lot of mobs that have no chance of landing a hit, but are dual-wielding or something similar and have sneak attack. This will put the fear of death into the character while also making them feel rewarded for investing into high AC, as they can't be hit, they get flanked, which means sneak attacks triggers for every NPC. And then they just need to roll a lucky natural 20 that can land a hit, which means they take that sneak attack damage.

If not enough, you can do the tricky thing. Have one NPC that trips the character, preventing him from moving, while the other monsters go after the other party members. Suddenly that massive AC keeps him from taking damage, sure, but he can no longer do what he wanted to do, which was to protect his allies, as he lies powerlessly on the floor.

[Satinavian]

I think you missed the point i was getting at in that part of my post, it was that, since prices for bonuses are exponential in cost, its unlikely that you would have a +4 natural armor necklace for example, while nobody else in the party has one at all, its more likely you have a +4 while they have a +2-3. I was explaining why a 10 AC gap is actually representative of a significant bump in investment, despite it “only” resulting in +10 AC
Sure, but i have found that PC going specifically for AC tend to not only have higher bonuses but more kinds of bonuses (esp. difficult to get ones) and invest more body slots for it. So it is a combination.

[Crake]

Sure, but i have found that PC going specifically for AC tend to not only have higher bonuses but more kinds of bonuses (esp. difficult to get ones) and invest more body slots for it. So it is a combination.

In my experience, the only outlier in this case is the shield bonus, its typically only the “tank” that has one, though personally I usually get at least a mithril/darkwood buckler, as -1 to hit with my offhand is almost always worth the +1-6 AC and special abilities offered by a shield.

I also, however, tend to play with automatic bonus progression, where everyone gets natural and deflection bonuses, so everyone’s kinda equally tanky, the biggest difference is the presence/absense of a shield, and how heavy your armor is/what you defense bonus is (for those games where im running armor as DR and class defense instead)

[Mordante]

There are items that enhance natural armor. Ring of Protection grants a deflection bonus to AC. There are many spells that give a random morale or insight bonus to AC, etc. Some classes have bonuses to AC from their stats like a Monk and Swordsage. Also, how do you get a +3 Dex with Full Plate?

Armor Born (Ex): The archblade expands their sense of self not only to their weapons but also to the armor and shields they wear, to the point where it no longer hampers them at all. Be it leather or full plate, an archblade no longer has a maximum dex bonus to their armour or shield and no armor check penalty. They also are not hampered in speed by heavy armor and are considered wearing light armor regardless of what type of armor they wear.

[Remuko]

Armor Born (Ex): The archblade expands their sense of self not only to their weapons but also to the armor and shields they wear, to the point where it no longer hampers them at all. Be it leather or full plate, an archblade no longer has a maximum dex bonus to their armour or shield and no armor check penalty. They also are not hampered in speed by heavy armor and are considered wearing light armor regardless of what type of armor they wear.

thats homebrew from the D&D wiki (i had to look up the class cuz id not heard of it).

[ericgrau]

I'm in favor of the solutions of do little or nothing. Not only do you not want to crush a player's dreams after he's invested, this is a bit expected from the system. Most monsters attack AC by design, and it's meant to be cheap and easy to invest in without compromising attack much. And a handful of monsters are likewise already unusual. If you start throwing lots and lots of unusual monsters at the group, suddenly that investment isn't as worth it and how is he supposed to easily switch? And yeah, for the side topic you can keep up at almost all levels by spreading out the AC source: a couple +2s and a couple +1s, or etc. Though past level 15ish things change a little in terms of there being more special monsters by default and other useful defensive magic items. With MIC there are some good ones a little sooner too.

[Gruftzwerg]

I haven't been online since yesterday. Wow, this thread has really taken off!

Anyway, one of my players is playing a fighter who has an armor class that is about 10 points higher on average than everyone else on the team.

I just want to be able to unga bunga him sometimes. I can't do that. If I make mobs able to do that... then the whole party also gets to enjoy that.

I've considered tripping, overruns, and CC

I've even ignored him at times, but I don't want to do that too often because my NPCs choose to move on. (at least, that's how I would handle it if I were in that situation) I've considered adding more cannon fodder to the fights, so he can tank a bunch of mobs and get the satisfaction of doing his job well. Yet this ties into me not wanting to specifically add in things to counter one player. I can do it without ruining his fun, it just makes me feel grimy.

Imho you just need to find the balance point here where you all have fun.

It's ok to "unga bunga" a character sometimes (if it is not always the same one and to repetitive). But the important part here is "sometimes". You need to just check that you have enough variety in your reactions to his high AC.

To give some examples:
- knock out cold via (ability) damage (e.g. spells or inhaled poison)
- hard CC to steal his actions (stun, paralyzed, nauseated..)
- soft CC to hamper his actions (marbles, terrain, web abilities/spells, tripping, disarming,..)
- soft debuffs targeting his AC and/or his dmg (e.g. curses, diseases)
- hard debuffs limiting his overall effectiveness (e.g. blind)

Make sure to have a good mix where he can shine; gets hampered a lil; to a complete shut down and use as many different tools as possible (so that it doesn't feel repetitive).

I hope that you maybe find enjoyment in broadening your tools of response as DM. Because if you start to enjoy becoming better at that, you won't feel so grimy about it ;)