Clarification on veiled illusionist Goddess's Veil(human)

[ciopo]

on the simple raw thread, question I posed:
if at 1st level of veiled illusionist we add a spell to a spontaneous class spell list, can we select that spell as "spell known" at 2nd level of veiled illusionist by chosing it with goddess's veil(human) again? by the effect of "If the spell is already on her spell list, she adds it to her spellbook, familiar, or list of spells known" even if normally that spell wouldn't be on the class list, but it is now for that specific character

and answer I got :

A394: If you've added it to your spell list permanently (eg. by using a Samsaran's Mystic Past life), then yeah it should add it to your spells known. It's on your class list after all.

But using Goddess's Veil specifically to select the same spell twice doesn't work for multiple reasons. For one, it's a temporary ability; temp abilities typically do not allow you to meet the prerequisites for things, unless you can make them last more than 24 hours (and even then you lose the qualification when it's not active).

Second, the ability specifies that you choose AN ADDITIONAL SPELL; i.e. not the same one.


This confuses me, I was assuming the "Each veil also grants the illusionist an additional power." were permanently granted additional powers. Like, it seems to me you can make use of the halfling benefit of concealing your spellcasting even if you are not veiled as an halfling. So similarly, the human bonus spell list would be a permanent addition, no?

if they are not a permanent addition, and are a function of assuming the veil.... doens't that mean we could change all those bonus illusion spell with a free action, simply by changing the veil, at no cost?

[Rynjin]

The Veil powers only function while you're using said Veil. That's why it's an "additional" power on top of the base power (Disguise Self as the relevant race).

RAW you're correct that you could just change your chosen spell as a free action. RAI I'm pretty sure the intent is for it to be chosen and locked in, but you get a new spell every level.

Notice that all of the other Veils are "single use" abilities as well.

Relevant text for other posters: (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/veiled-illusionist/)


A veiled illusionist learns to cloak herself in the forms favored by the goddess—human, halfling, elf, gnome, cyclops, and naga. Once the veiled illusionist learns a veil, she can expend 1 point from her veil pool to disguise herself as a member of that veil’s race as though using disguise self, even if doing so would exceed the limitations of disguise self. When disguising herself as one of these races, she gains an additional bonus on her Disguise check equal to her class level. Each veil also grants the illusionist an additional power. Assuming a different veil while still under the effects of her disguise self spell-like ability is a free action, and does not expend any additional points from her veil pool.

[ciopo]

By that interpretation, the human bonus effect is only ever useful to .. prepared divine classes, and classes that already have those illusion on their class list, which seems to me to be the opposite of what "add spells to class list" are usually intended to be, no?

I read that "additional power" as a function of the class feature called goddess's veil, and not as a function of being under the effect of the disguise self SLA.

mh

[Rynjin]

"Goddess's Veil" IS the Disguise Self ability; "Once the veiled illusionist learns a veil, she can expend 1 point from her veil pool to disguise herself as a member of that veil’s race as though using disguise self"

It's all a part of the same ability.

And yes, the ability is better for Prepared casters than Spontaneous ones, as per usual. Given that the PrC was made for characters who worship a specific deity (Sivanah), this tracks flavor-wise as well, for favoring Clerics.

[ciopo]

seems counterintuitive to me. the 2nd/4th/6th/8th/10th are all extra kind of uses of the veil pool. It really breaks disbelief that to make use of them the illusionist would have to switch veil between the various forms, considering all of them already have clear "trigger condition". What kind of bogus illusionist goes about his day as a X, to then go cyclop for a split second when they need a true seeing effect, to then "flicker" between halfling and naga at a time of casting an illusion spell?

Good job with their disguise! Very believable! totally not an illusionist posing as a XYZ

Which brings me to : if they didn't mean to allow the character to spend the veil points to get the benefit of more than one of those special ability, then those special ability woulnd't be free action, no ?


interesting all the same.


Oh, if we go by that interpretation, doesn't it mean that assuming one of Sivanah's Veils don't gain the benefit of the Veil pool ? the hour/level duration, increased DC, and altered perceived senses

[Rynjin]

Why wouldn't it?

I also think you're making a classic mistake when it comes to evaluating a player option: assuming it's supposed to be good.

Most PrCs suck ass. Something being terrible doesn't preclude it from working as intended. That sadly seems to be the case here: it's designed poorly, and so it sucks.

Veiled Illusionist is from an unimportant softcover splatbook. These books are made mostly for lore, not mechanics, and the freelancer who wrote Veiled Illusionist probably didn't bring his A game when writing a PrC based around an obscure Gnome deity. Or if he did, his A game was more like a better designer's C game because he's new, untalented, or just not willing to give it his all for a flat payment of like $100.

These books are so unimportant that they never receive FAQs or erratas. Paizo is really not concerned with performing quality control on the options provided in these types of books, even less so than in their hardcovers.

You sometimes get some real gems (the X Tactics Handbooks for example), but it's a real crapshoot.

[ciopo]

Why wouldn't it?

Unless I totally misunderstood your argument (which I might well have), your RAW reading is that sivayah veils are a separate SLA (or possibly 5?) from the SLA provided from veil pool, rather than an expansion of that feature, thus no Sivayah veil gain the benefit of veil pool.

I note that it's veil pool that's superscripted as (Sp), and not Sivayah veils , that's the main reason I thought/think Sivayah veils is a feature that modify the disguise self sp (granted by veil pool) and grants 5 other standalone class features (the 4 more possible uses of veil points and the extra inclass spells)


What I find most amusing actually is that veiled illusionist is a 0/10 spellcasting progression, since it only has the table but not the text for advancing spellcasting, so ironically the human veil "does nothing" because there is no class to add the spells to!