The Guardian: A Martial Archetype for the Tank Role (PEACH)

[GalacticAxekick]

I'd like a hand looking this subclass over: particularly the Deflect feature. My goals are:

Mechanically, expanding the Fighter's role to include actively defending allies, in order to give them interesting choices to make every round of combat
Thematically, giving higher level Fighters some extraordinary feats of martial skill to brag about, such as parrying lightning bolts to strike the casters who called them down, and smothering dragon breath to save whole crowds and areas in their wake.
Mechanically accomplishing these things with zero rest-limited resources
Thematically accomplishing these things with zero magic


Thanks for any help you can offer!


The Guardian
Some fighters take a cunning, oblique approach to combat: to dodge and parry, waiting for the moment to riposte. With no offense but an airtight defense, guardians aim to outrun, outlast or outmanoeuvre the enemy, whatever it may be.

Bodyguard
Starting at 3rd level, when an attack or a Magic Missile deals damage to a target within 5 ft of you, you can choose to take the damage instead, and when you give a target cover against an effect you can see, you can choose to give full cover.

Guardian's Ward
Starting at 3rd level, you possess greater defenses than the typical fighter, which are represented by a pool of hit points equal to twice your fighter level + either your Strength or Dexterity modifier. This is your ward.

When an attack or Magic Missile that you can see hits you, you can let your ward take the damage instead. When you are equiped with a shield, you can also let your ward take damage from effects that force you to make Dexterity saving throws.

Your ward cannot absorb damage while it is reduced to 0 hit points, or while you are restrained or incapacitated. Your ward's hit points are restored when you use your action to do anything other than make an attack or cast a spell. You may restore your ward to full hit points as an action.

Lunge
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to move up to your speed at any moment, whether it is your turn or not. You can use this movement to intercept any event you can see, or to escape area effects, but not to evade effects that target you.

You can't move on your next turn after using this feature, except by taking the Dash action.

One Eye Open
Starting at 7th level, you can Search as a bonus action.

In addition, you can perceive your surroundings and speak normally, even when you are unconscious (e.g. when you begin a long rest, when you are reduced to 0 hit points, or when you are under the effects of Sleep).

Deflect
Starting at 10th level, when a ranged attack misses you, or when you reduce its damage to 0 with your ward, you can use your reaction to deflect it towards a new target within range. Make a new attack roll to determine if the attack hits, treating it as a martial ranged weapon with the finesse property.

Likewise, when you are equipped with a shield and you take 0 damage from a line effect that forced you to make a Dexterity saving throw, you can use your reaction to bend the line in a new direction of your choice.

Fancy Footwork
Starting at 15th level, you can Lunge without using your reaction. Once you Lunge, you nonetheless cannot Lunge again until the end of your next turn.

Last Man Standing
Starting at 18th level, you do not fall unconscious when you are reduced to 0 hit points. Sheer willpower and unwavering purpose allow you to fight until your dying breath.

[MrStabby]

I think it would be useful to try and draw an explicit line between this and the cavalier. The non-magical protector sub-class of fighter looks thematically very similar.

I am not saying these are the same, but you really, really want to accentuate the differences between them on a thematic level. On a mechanical level the differen classes have differen abilities, but if you were to shuffle up these abilities with those of the cavalier I am not sure that someone who didn't know the classes would be able to put them into different sets. Also take care to distinguish for other options like the Redemption paladin that has similar mechanics.


Specifically:
Bodyguard - I kind of like it. I think that maybe it should use a reaction or shouldn't be able to be reduced in any way. Just soaking al the damage is fine power-wise, but I also feel it can remove some of the fun - the eement of hazard is significantly reduced unless the party faces a TPK.

Guardian's Ward
What? Am I missing something here? This is so insane I think I must be? 2 X level+ stat temp HP that can be refreshed as an action (even more efficient as you can help or dash or potentially even ready an action)? Compare to second wind for an ability that scales half as well, only works when you have already taken damage and only comes back on a short rest. And this is an ability on a class that has ways of taking damage... and it is the second ability at this level, rather than just the only one.

Lunge
A third ability at 3rd level? his is a minefield of potential rules issues. Reactions following their trigger is kind of baked in, but having no explicit trigger might be odd. You can't move out of the area of a spell... but can you move as a reaction to a spell being cast but before it happens, like counterspell does? Aso taking the dash action (if I remember correctly) doesn't move you - it just doubles your speed. Is this intended to be that a dash action lets you move at a normal speed or a dash action removes the restriction so either you don't move or move at double speed?

One Eye Open
Another weird one. I get its intended as a bit of a ribbon, and the level 7 fighter abilities are rarely earth shattering. Search as a bonus action is fine - actually very cool and fits the ideal pretty well.

The speaking normally when unconscious is the odd bit. Does that mean you are conscious enough to formuate coherent thoughts? Can you decide what to speak and what not to speak or wi you just ramble on in your sleep?


Deflect
I would limit this to a certain number of tims per day. If you have a modest number of spells thrown at PCs per day, then capping uses will make little difference. If you have loads of spells thrown, then this is totally overpowered and caping uses restores balance. "within range" - is this measured from you or from the caster? I don't reay like this as its stepping on the monk's toes and thier deflect missiles qhite a bit - only its broader and on a more powerful class. I am not sure it would be satisfying to play a monk alongside this. Also a reminder that the ward is insanely good and this just makes it better.

Fancy Footwork
I feel we are losing the theme a bit here. Lunge as a minor ability to use occasionally is cool and all but this is driving your mobility through the roof. Once again, it feels like overlapping with other classes that are more mobility focussed but bringing more martial power than they will have. Also this gets totally stupidly overpowered with sentinel - being able to intercept someone who moves where you don't want them to go and to pin them in place is just superb.

Last Man Standing
This is... surprisingly weak. You are making death saves. You still make death saves. You still fail death saves on taking damage. Sure, you avoid the critical fail for taking damage and they might not have advantage to attack you, but it isn't really that game changing. Using your damage redirection capabilities also becomes very risky. Even the ability to whip out another 45 temp HP per turn doesn't really help you here unless you can get a spot of healing. Its still a strong ability, but no quite as strong as I first thought.

On the other hand, if you have any characers with healing in the party it kind of becomes very good. Those 45 extra HP per turn suddenly really come into their own. Even at 20th level that might take a hit or two. And this isn't once per day like other similar abilities - its just an always on, always usable tool.



All in all, I think it needs a bit of toning down - at least at the lower levels. A higher levels where people are casting spells like force cage, then yeah - go to town then. At low levels the figher is plenty potent enough. This is fine though - I usually start my homebrew going a bit over the top and then reluctantly pairing it back.



EDIT: rereading this, I am worried it comes over as being a bit hostile. Not my intent - I think it is a promissing start for something good, but I was snapping out a reply as quick as I could before going to sleep and maybe used stronger descriptions that ideal.

[GalacticAxekick]

Thanks so much for your quick and thorough response!


I think it would be useful to try and draw an explicit line between this and the cavalier. The non-magical protector sub-class of fighter looks thematically very similar.

I am not saying these are the same, but you really, really want to accentuate the differences between them on a thematic level. On a mechanical level the differen classes have differen abilities, but if you were to shuffle up these abilities with those of the cavalier I am not sure that someone who didn't know the classes would be able to put them into different sets. Also take care to distinguish for other options like the Redemption paladin that has similar mechanics.Thematically, there is no line between this and the Cavalier. They are two attempts to represent the same themes. I dislike the Cavalier mechanically and wrote this essentially to replace it.


Bodyguard - I kind of like it. I think that maybe it should use a reaction or shouldn't be able to be reduced in any way. Just soaking al the damage is fine power-wise, but I also feel it can remove some of the fun - the eement of hazard is significantly reduced unless the party faces a TPKThe goal of this subclass is to dart around the battlefield soaking all the damage. If you find that unbalanced, then I want to do something about it, but if you find it unfun, then we just have different tastes, and I'm comfortable leaving it as is.


Guardian's Ward
What? Am I missing something here? This is so insane I think I must be? 2 X level+ stat temp HP that can be refreshed as an action (even more efficient as you can help or dash or potentially even ready an action)? Compare to second wind for an ability that scales half as well, only works when you have already taken damage and only comes back on a short rest. And this is an ability on a class that has ways of taking damage... and it is the second ability at this level, rather than just the only one.You aren't missing anything.

My intention was to balance the feature around soaking roughly as much damage as you could deal with your action:
3 x 2 + 3 (9) damage at 3rd level, when you're dealing up to 2d6 + 3 (10) with a greatsword
20 x 2 + 5 (45) damage at 20th level, when you're dealing up to 8d6 + 20 (48) with a greatsword.

If that's too much, what nerf might be appropriate? Reduce the pool of HP to level + stat? Make the pool disappear at the start of your next turn? Something else I haven't thought of?


Lunge
A third ability at 3rd level?A third ability at 3rd level! With 7th level being the designated non-combat-utility level, I wanted to making the Fighter wait until 10th level to do what their subclass is meant to do (jump into harm's way and protect others).


this is a minefield of potential rules issues. Reactions following their trigger is kind of baked in, but having no explicit trigger might be odd. You can't move out of the area of a spell... but can you move as a reaction to a spell being cast but before it happens, like counterspell does?The only category of reactions that always follow their trigger are Readied actions. Opportunity Attacks and Counterspell, for example, both occur before their trigger (or to be more precise, after the trigger is declared but before it occurs). Lunge is meant to work likewise, allowing you to leap in front of an attack (after it is declared but before it hits), leap out of a Cone of Cold's area (after it is declared but before it blows), or leap on top of a Fireball (after it is declared but before it explodes).


Also taking the dash action (if I remember correctly) doesn't move you - it just doubles your speed. Is this intended to be that a dash action lets you move at a normal speed or a dash action removes the restriction so either you don't move or move at double speed? Move at normal speed.


One Eye Open
Another weird one. I get its intended as a bit of a ribbon, and the level 7 fighter abilities are rarely earth shattering. Search as a bonus action is fine - actually very cool and fits the ideal pretty well.

The speaking normally when unconscious is the odd bit. Does that mean you are conscious enough to formuate coherent thoughts? Can you decide what to speak and what not to speak or wi you just ramble on in your sleep?You speak normally: you decide what you speak. Essentially, the feature allows you to be on watch and speak to other creatures during rests ("Who goes there?") or after being downed in combat ("The assassin is in that bush!")


Deflect
I would limit this to a certain number of tims per day. If you have a modest number of spells thrown at PCs per day, then capping uses will make little difference. If you have loads of spells thrown, then this is totally overpowered and caping uses restores balance. "within range" - is this measured from you or from the caster? I don't reay like this as its stepping on the monk's toes and thier deflect missiles qhite a bit - only its broader and on a more powerful class. I am not sure it would be satisfying to play a monk alongside this. Also a reminder that the ward is insanely good and this just makes it better.Again, I want zero rest-limited resources in this subclass. If any feature needs to be limited per day at its current power level, I'd prefer to nerf it. What do you think would be an appropriate nerf?


Fancy Footwork
I feel we are losing the theme a bit here. Lunge as a minor ability to use occasionally is cool and all but this is driving your mobility through the roof. Once again, it feels like overlapping with other classes that are more mobility focussed but bringing more martial power than they will have. Also this gets totally stupidly overpowered with sentinel - being able to intercept someone who moves where you don't want them to go and to pin them in place is just superb.I think mobility is key part of the theme, so I don't see what you mean about losing the theme. But you're 100% right about the overpowered interaction with Sentinel.

My intention with Fancy Footwork was to make Lunge and Deflect useable in one round: for the Guardian to potentially leap in front of an arrow/ray/line effect and bat it at a new target in one fell swoop. What phrasing might you adopt to make that possible without making other reactions (like opportunity attacks


Last Man Standing
This is... surprisingly weak. You are making death saves. You still make death saves. You still fail death saves on taking damage. Sure, you avoid the critical fail for taking damage and they might not have advantage to attack you, but it isn't really that game changing. Using your damage redirection capabilities also becomes very risky. Even the ability to whip out another 45 temp HP per turn doesn't really help you here unless you can get a spot of healing. Its still a strong ability, but no quite as strong as I first thought.You still fail death saves upon taking damage, absolutely, but just like the Abjurer's Ward, the Guardian's Ward taking damage does not count as you taking damage. Last Man Standing allows you ward off hits/effects that would've resulted in death save failures and survive at 0 HP for longer: buying time for battles to end, party members to heal you, Medicine checks to be made, or for you to succeed on your own death saves naturally.

EDIT:

EDIT: rereading this, I am worried it comes over as being a bit hostile. Not my intent - I think it is a promissing start for something good, but I was snapping out a reply as quick as I could before going to sleep and maybe used stronger descriptions that ideal.You don't come off as hostile at all. I'm really happy about your prompt reply!

[JNAProductions]

A Greatsword Fighter does not do 10 damage at level three-they deal (17*.05)+(10*(hit rate-.05))

There’s a reason healing doesn’t restore as many HP as hurting can deal-healing has no failure rate.

Also, compare to an Aburer’s Arcane Ward.

[GalacticAxekick]

A Greatsword Fighter does not do 10 damage at level three-they deal (17*.05)+(10*(hit rate-.05))

There’s a reason healing doesn’t restore as many HP as hurting can deal-healing has no failure rate.This is a good point. So again I ask, how would you nerf the Guardian's Ward feature?


Also, compare to an Aburer’s Arcane Ward.I already did. I based Guardian's Ward off of it.

[JNAProductions]

To the latter bit, an Aburer’s Ward is worth (at level four) 12 HP, plus a maximum of 14 HP from spells restoring it. That assumes that every spell (including from Arcane Recovery) is used on Abjuration spells.

This Ward is worth 12 HP per fight at minimum. Plus basically immunity to environmental damage.

Edit: ending work break. Cannot comment more right bow

[GalacticAxekick]

To the latter bit, an Aburer’s Ward is worth (at level four) 12 HP, plus a maximum of 14 HP from spells restoring it. That assumes that every spell (including from Arcane Recovery) is used on Abjuration spells.

This Ward is worth 12 HP per fight at minimum.I'm aware. I could tell you my rationale for writing it this way of you like, but I think it would be more productive if you gave me your thoughts on how to rewrite it instead.


Plus basically immunity to environmental damage.The Guardians Ward only absorbs damage from attscks and Dex save effects. Environmrntal damage sources like falling and thorns would do full damage, as would any effects involving non-Dex saves.

[JNAProductions]

Make it recover with Action Surge and Second Wind.
Not just on any non-attack/spell action.

[GalacticAxekick]

I should specify, how might you rewrite it with respect to the aforementioned subclass design goals? The goals in question being:

expanding the Fighter's role to include actively defending allies, in order to give them interesting choices to make every round of combat
accomplishing this [and other things] with zero rest-limited resources

[JNAProductions]

That’s not possible without making it OP.

Either you have such amazing refreshing THP and defenses that you’re literally unkillable, or your defenses are limited by your HP, even if everything else is unlimited.

[GalacticAxekick]

If your only input is that my goal is impossible, we have nothing further to discuss.

I'll continue to shoot for it regardless. Surely there's a happy medium between "unkillable regenerator" and "taking to Dodge action to buy time until death"

[JNAProductions]

Do you consider HP a rest-based resource?

[GalacticAxekick]

It technically is, but obviously not in the sense stipulated by the design goals. I'm perfectly fine with the subclass spending HP to defend others, hence Bodyguard.

[JNAProductions]

Okay. That does change things.

At a minimum, you’d need to make it require its own action to refresh. No Dodging to refresh-I can run the exact numbers later, but quick math says that 25 creatures, each with +4 to-hit and 1d6+2 damage, won’t outpace the Dodge and 9 THP combo of a level three Guardian with 20 AC.

Edit: compare it to Lay On Hands.

If you have three fights a day, it’s worth 3((2*level)+stat mod). Even with a stat mod of zero, it’s more effective HP than Lay On Hands if it started at full for a fight and could not be recovered mid-fight.

[GalacticAxekick]

At a minimum, you’d need to make it require its own action to refresh. No Dodging to refreshSure! Anything else?


I can run the exact numbers later, but quick math says that 25 creatures, each with +4 to-hit and 1d6+2 damage, won’t outpace the Dodge and 9 THP combo of a level three Guardian with 20 AC.I agree this is excessive. A single 3rd level Guardian shouldn't be able stand and take attacks from 25 goblins or whathaveyou.

That said, I think it's inaccurate to say that the Guardian in its current state can. If the enemies in question improve their odds by shoving and/or grappling the Guardian, they can revoke and reverse the benefits of the Dodge action and bypass the ward with numbers as few as 4 (I can give you math if you like). And if the enemies in question attack the Guardian's allies instead of the Guardian directly, they take the Guardian's AC and Dodge out of the equation and bypass the ward with numbers as few as 2.

This is still more work than it should take for CR 1/4 creatures to scratch a 3rd level PC. But its not as crazy as 25 creatures. I think it would be reasonable for the Ward to let a Guardian neutralize "their weight" in enemy forces simply attacking, such as:

Another 3rd level Fighter using the Attack action to target a squishy ally (2d6 + 6 aka 13 with TWF, +5 to hit against 14 AC for a 60% chance to hit, ~7.8 DPR
A CR 1/2 enemy, such as a black bear, attacking a squishy ally (1d6 + 2d4 + 4 aka 12.5 with Multiattack, +4 to hit against 14 AC for a 55% chance to hit, ~6.9 DPR
A couple CR 1/4 enemies, such as wolves, attacking a squishy ally (4d4 + 4 aka 14 with bites, +4 to hit against 14 AC for 60% chance to hit, ~8.4 DPR


I think 9 HP Ward that replenishes as its own action gets us just about there! But again, is there anything you might add?


Edit: compare it to Lay On Hands.

If you have three fights a day, it’s worth 3((2*level)+stat mod). Even with a stat mod of zero, it’s more effective HP than Lay On Hands if it started at full for a fight and could not be recovered mid-fight.At 1d10+2 (7.5) per round, a 3rd level Fighter's Interception Fighting Style is also more effective HP than a 3rd level Paladin's Lay On Hands. Action free. Across 3 rounds (rather than 3 fights).

I don't think Guardian's Ward offering more effective HP than Lay On Hands, Cure Wounds, or any other healing feature is really cause for concern, because Guardian's Ward is meant to defend allies on a round-to-round basis, and 5e healing simply isn't. 5e healing is meant to bring allies back from 0 HP and patch them up between encounters.

[MrStabby]

Thanks so much for your quick and thorough response!

Thematically, there is no line between this and the Cavalier. They are two attempts to represent the same themes. I dislike the Cavalier mechanically and wrote this essentially to replace it.

The goal of this subclass is to dart around the battlefield soaking all the damage. If you find that unbalanced, then I want to do something about it, but if you find it unfun, then we just have different tastes, and I'm comfortable leaving it as is.

I think there are a couple of types of 'unfun' - one of which is an issue, and one isn't. One is simply that it doesn't seem fun to someone to play. I don't really see this as an issue - if you don't like a class, don't play it. The other one is that an option isn't fun to play alongside. This might be due to it being overpowered, or due to it stepping on the toes of another class or having abilities that remove fun from the game for other classes. I think that this is more worthy of addressing.

Here, I think we have a couple of things in the class overall. Firstly, the power level is significantly too high. The fighter is not a weak class anyway, at least in the early game, and this is a very, very powerful sub-class added on the top.

Secondly, I think that elements of the class really do overlap too much with other classes, like the rogue and the monk (and to a lesser extent the barbarian). This might be kind of ok with some classes, but each of these is probably weaker than the fighter. Letting the figher be as mobile as these classes for such a small investment kind of invalidates some of the strengths of those other classes.

There are other elements as well - soaking damage invalidates healing, though I think this is a smaller issue unless you have a life cleric in the party.





You aren't missing anything.

My intention was to balance the feature around soaking roughly as much damage as you could deal with your action:

3 x 2 + 3 (9) damage at 3rd level, when you're dealing up to 2d6 + 3 (10) with a greatsword
20 x 2 + 5 (45) damage at 20th level, when you're dealing up to 8d6 + 20 (48) with a greatsword.


If that's too much, what nerf might be appropriate? Reduce the pool of HP to level + stat? Make the pool disappear at the start of your next turn? Something else I haven't thought of?

The problem is... you are not using your action. You can go into fights with these extra temp HP, essentially for free. You can also use your action for something other than attacking or casting a spell and still get the benefits - whilst this will frequently be suboptimal use of an action (or would be without the ability), it is still a nice bonus.

Also I think your calculations are a little off. You neglect probability of hitting, and you ignore any resistances you might have with means that this is a lot more than the damage you might do on average (althoug to be fair you also ignore critical hits). There are also the situational elements - its really great ability to have when attacking with disadvantage or can't reach an enemy.

I think some of your suggestions could help fix this - avoiding its use as a pre-buff with a 1 round time limit and toning down the numbers would help. I think the big thing is to address the lack of action economy cost. Maybe when you use an action for something other than attack/spell you can use a bonus action to pull this back? Or maybe a reaction? Or, if you want to keep three strong abilities at 3rd level, make it just a couple of times per day.




A third ability at 3rd level! With 7th level being the designated non-combat-utility level, I wanted to making the Fighter wait until 10th level to do what their subclass is meant to do (jump into harm's way and protect others).

The only category of reactions that always follow their trigger are Readied actions. Opportunity Attacks and Counterspell, for example, both occur before their trigger (or to be more precise, after the trigger is declared but before it occurs). Lunge is meant to work likewise, allowing you to leap in front of an attack (after it is declared but before it hits), leap out of a Cone of Cold's area (after it is declared but before it blows), or leap on top of a Fireball (after it is declared but before it explodes).

This is a very powerful ability - again, no cap on uses per day. It is just so generically powerful and sits at a level where you get two other powerful abilities already. Whilst I still think it needs a bit of rewording so that the reaction has an explicit trigger, its fine as an ability - its just the cumulative effect of all of these other abilities at such an early level that worries me.




Move at normal speed.

You speak normally: you decide what you speak. Essentially, the feature allows you to be on watch and speak to other creatures during rests ("Who goes there?") or after being downed in combat ("The assassin is in that bush!")

Again, I want zero rest-limited resources in this subclass. If any feature needs to be limited per day at its current power level, I'd prefer to nerf it. What do you think would be an appropriate nerf?

I think mobility is key part of the theme, so I don't see what you mean about losing the theme. But you're 100% right about the overpowered interaction with Sentinel.

Not just sentinel - also things like the protection fighting style. There might also be some niche things like grappling an enemy and then flying up with them to a great height before they get a turn or similar. I think that what you have said might highlight the root of the problem though - "mobility is part of the theme". It isn't the whole theme, its just one more part. I think there is too much trying to cram itself into the sub-class.




My intention with Fancy Footwork was to make Lunge and Deflect useable in one round: for the Guardian to potentially leap in front of an arrow/ray/line effect and bat it at a new target in one fell swoop. What phrasing might you adopt to make that possible without making other reactions (like opportunity attacks

I think I would combine it into one action. "At 15th level you may use your Deflect ability on any attack against a creature withing 15ft of yourself. If you do, you must also use the same reaction to move within 5ft of the targetted creature". Its a realy good ability, but its level 15 so probably not game breaking.




You still fail death saves upon taking damage, absolutely, but just like the Abjurer's Ward, the Guardian's Ward taking damage does not count as you taking damage. Last Man Standing allows you ward off hits/effects that would've resulted in death save failures and survive at 0 HP for longer: buying time for battles to end, party members to heal you, Medicine checks to be made, or for you to succeed on your own death saves naturally.

Hmm. I had asumed these were basically temp HP. If they are not... then this is even more powerful as it will stack with temp HP, it will not trigger failed death saves, will not trigger concentration saves (unlikely to be a major issue) and will potentially avoid some triggered effects on being dealt damage. I think that temp HP might be better for balance.

[Yakk]

Bodyguard
Starting at 3rd level, when an attack or a Magic Missile deals damage to a target within 5 ft of you, you can choose to take the damage instead, and when you give a target cover against an effect you can see, you can choose to give full cover.

I'd just drop Magic Missile. Needless complication.

Second, 100% automatically transferring damage without expending a resource (even a reaction) is iffy.


Guardian's Ward
Starting at 3rd level, you possess greater defenses than the typical fighter, which are represented by a pool of hit points equal to twice your fighter level + either your Strength or Dexterity modifier. This is your ward.

When an attack or Magic Missile that you can see hits you, you can let your ward take the damage instead. When you are equiped with a shield, you can also let your ward take damage from effects that force you to make Dexterity saving throws.

Your ward cannot absorb damage while it is reduced to 0 hit points, or while you are restrained or incapacitated. Your ward's hit points are restored when you use your action to do anything other than make an attack or cast a spell.

Compare with Abjurer's Ward. Once per long rest it produces (level*2)+int soak. It then regains twice your expended spell slots (a daily resource) only.

Yours produces the same (level*2)+stat soak, but refreshes for free outside combat, and in combat refreshes if you can find a useful non-attack non-spellcasting action for nearly free. Dodge is one, as is activating a magic item, or even firing a ballista.

Ruling out every "action that is useful" is a game of whack a mole.

This is very, very, very strong. What more, it has gameplay problems. Healing that outpaces enemy damage makes fights into longer snoozefests. Here, unless a foe does more than (2x level+stat) damage per round the fight grinds to a halt. They can't even attack another target.

Also, replace "equiped" with "wielding a shield" or "using a shield".


Lunge
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to move up to your speed at any moment, whether it is your turn or not. You can use this movement to intercept any event you can see, or to escape area effects, but not to evade effects that target you.

You can't move on your next turn after using this feature, except by taking the Dash action.
Reactions must have trigger conditions. "at any point" is a complete mechanical mess. Can you do it between a fireball being targeted and it going off? After chain lighting hits its first target but before it bounces? After someone swings a sword and before it lands? You covered a few exceptions, but there are going to be a lot more.

The wording of next turn implies that if you take the dash action, you get your full speed + dash speed. This is probably not what you meant. The dash action increases your movement speed, it does not do the actual movement.

This is also the 3rd ability at level 3 with real mechanical heft. Any one of these 3 abilities would make a 3 level fighter dip worth doing to get it. And you have 3.


One Eye Open
Starting at 7th level, you can Search as a bonus action.

In addition, you can perceive your surroundings and speak normally, even when you are unconscious (e.g. when you begin a long rest, when you are reduced to 0 hit points, or when you are under the effects of Sleep).

You can speak normally when knocked out is a strange ability.

Not mentioning "actually being asleep" is funny. A long rest includes sleeping, but sleeping is usually only part of it.


Deflect
Starting at 10th level, when a ranged attack misses you, or when you reduce its damage to 0 with your ward, you can use your reaction to deflect it towards a new target within range. Make a new attack roll to determine if the attack hits, treating it as a martial ranged weapon with the finesse property.
This is a souped-up version of the monk's catch missiles. A bit of toe-stepping here.

Likewise, when you are equipped with a shield and you take 0 damage from a line effect that forced you to make a Dexterity saving throw, you can use your reaction to bend the line in a new direction of your choice.
There are no line effects in 5e.


Fancy Footwork
Starting at 15th level, you can Lunge without using your reaction. Once you Lunge, you nonetheless cannot Lunge again until the end of your next turn.
As written, you an Lunge while unconscious.


Last Man Standing
Starting at 18th level, you do not fall unconscious when you are reduced to 0 hit points. Sheer willpower and unwavering purpose allow you to fight until your dying breath.
Sure.

Like a lot of subclasses for the Fighter class, this one is almost pure mechanics with no narrative. I find that Fighter classes with narrative are universally disappointing even if mechanically strong. The more narrative is tied to the subclass, the easier it is to add in non-combat abilities to a subclass.

The closest to non-combat this subclass has is "you can keep watch for the party so you don't start combat surprised, and can find hidden foes in combat". Which are both combat-adjacent. It is a pretty classic fighter subclass issue.

Replacing non-combat related features with combat-adjacent features seems like "this should be fair", but no, it ain't.

(The Battlemaster is an example of an official subclass with this problem. It at least now lets you pick non-combat-adjacent abilities, but still has this issue.)

---

I'd merge Bodyguard and Lunge as a first step. The other uses of Lunge can show up at higher levels. Each should cost your reaction in response to a specific trigger or set of triggers.

The ward, I'd make it temporary HP. The abjuration ward isn't temporary HP because abjuration magic involves putting temporary HP on yourself, and would probably still be better if it used temporary HP. The fighter has no such way to apply temporary HP to itself. So use the existing subsystem, not the quirky abjuration one.

I'd also control its regeneration.

Having it recover on:
Short or long rest
Action surge
Second wind
Critical hit on a hostile non-trivial creature

and drop its value. Say "fighter level plus constitution bonus". And probably delay it.

We could also keep it as large as it is or larger, but make it only appear for 1 round after an Action Surge or a Second Wind. This adds some fun dynamic tactics.

You could also tie other features to it, like Bodyguard only working when you have these temporary HP. That would make it viable to add at level 3.

Like:
Bodyguard
When you use Second Wind or an Action Surge, you gain temporary HP equal to twice your fighter level plus your constitution bonus. These temporary HP last until the end of your next turn. While you have these temporary HP, whenever a creature takes damage you can expend your reaction to move up to your speed. If you end your turn within 5' of the creature that took the damage, you can transfer the damage to yourself. After you have done this, you lose the temporary HP.

This doesn't add a new rest based resource. Instead, I boosted existing features. Still probably not what you want.

[GalacticAxekick]

First of all, thanks for your thorough response!


I'd just drop Magic Missile. Needless complication.Sure!


Compare with Abjurer's Ward. Once per long rest it produces (level*2)+int soak. It then regains twice your expended spell slots (a daily resource) only.

Yours produces the same (level*2)+stat soak, but refreshes for free outside combat, and in combat refreshes if you can find a useful non-attack non-spellcasting action for nearly free.I'm aware. I based it off Abjurer's Ward, after all. I could tell you my rationale for writing it this way of you like, but I think it would be more productive if you gave me your thoughts on how to rewrite it instead.


Ruling out every "action that is useful" is a game of whack a mole.Fair enough. Another user suggested making replenishing the Ward its own action. Does that sound good to you?


This is very, very, very strong. What more, it has gameplay problems. Healing that outpaces enemy damage makes fights into longer snoozefests. Here, unless a foe does more than (2x level+stat) damage per round the fight grinds to a halt. They can't even attack another targetThey can attack anyone who isn't beside or behind you, and they can of course use grapples or shove move anyone who is beside or behind you. Which is the point! In its finished form, the Guardian should be able to neutralize the attacks of a CR appropriate enemy (such as a CR 1/2 or two CR 1/4 enemies at 3rd level), forcing the enemy to switch strategies (for example, to shoving the Guardian aside or grappling and dragging them away before attacking), forcing the Guardian to switch strategies, etc.

The tit-for-tat dialogue of player countering enemy, enemy countering player is what I think combat as a Fighter should look like, instead of two forces making weapon attacks round after round.


Also, replace "equiped" with "wielding a shield" or "using a shield".Sure!


Reactions must have trigger conditions. "at any point" is a complete mechanical mess. Can you do it between a fireball being targeted and it going off? After chain lighting hits its first target but before it bounces? After someone swings a sword and before it lands? You covered a few exceptions, but there are going to be a lot more.Yes, you can do it between a Fireball being declared and going off. Yes, you can do it after Chain Lightning hits its first target but before it bounces. Yes, you can do it after a sword swings but before it lands. All of the above are intended parts of the feature in order to realize the theme of "masterful Guardian, always leaping into harm's way".


The wording of next turn implies that if you take the dash action, you get your full speed + dash speed. This is probably not what you meant. The dash action increases your movement speed, it does not do the actual movement.I'm aware that the Dash action increases your speed. My intention is that Lunge essentially spends an amount of your next turn's movement up to your base speed. So if your base speed is 30, it spends 30 feet of your next turn's movement, and you would begin with "30 feet spent out of 30" rather than "a speed of 0". You could then Dash, to have "30 feet spent out of 60".

Phrasing it as such is longwinded and (I thought) probably more confusing to the casual reader than necessary, so I adopted the phrasing you see now. But if that's unclear, how might you phrase it?


This is a souped-up version of the monk's catch missiles. A bit of toe-stepping here.Is there any way I could realize the theme of the Fighter deflecting incoming effects (a) without limiting them to rest-based resources and (b) without stepping on the Monk's toes? Maybe tying it to an action, to contrast the Monk's deflection using only a reaction?


There are no line effects in 5e.Catapult, Tasha's Caustic Brew, Aganazzar's Scorcher, Lightning Bolt, and various dragon breaths are all line effects.


As written, you an Lunge while unconscious.Your speed is 0 while you are unconscious, so no, you cannot.


Like a lot of subclasses for the Fighter class, this one is almost pure mechanics with no narrative. I find that Fighter classes with narrative are universally disappointing even if mechanically strong. This is a difference in taste between us that I think we've discussed months ago. I believe a subclass should represent a set of abilities and nothing more: that it should be agnostic to personality, lifestyle and social status.

When the only narrative imposition of the subclass is "you are someone capable of doing X" (in this case, "you are a warrior trained to defend yourself and others"), I have the freedom to combine it with different backgrounds, feats, skills and roleplay to create the character of my choice ("I am a squire trained to defend and wait on my knightly master; I'm a knight and trained to defend my fragile steed & charm my way through intrigue; I'm a yojimbo trained to defend my noble patron and guide her through our travels; etc).

When the subclass assumes personality, lifestyle or social status, it can end up locking the mechanics (and corresponding narrative elements) that I need for my character behind mechanics (and corresponding narrative elements) that antithetical to my character.


The more narrative is tied to the subclass, the easier it is to add in non-combat abilities to a subclass.

The closest to non-combat this subclass has is "you can keep watch for the party so you don't start combat surprised, and can find hidden foes in combat". Which are both combat-adjacent. It is a pretty classic fighter subclass issue.

Replacing non-combat related features with combat-adjacent features seems like "this should be fair", but no, it ain't.Fair enough! Do you have any ideas for a relatively "character agnostic" non-combat feature for a Guardian? Maybe something along the lines of "verbal defense" allowing the Guardian to back allies up in social encounters, or some sort of investigative talent themed around "attention to detail"?



I'd merge Bodyguard and Lunge as a first step. The other uses of Lunge can show up at higher levels. Each should cost your reaction in response to a specific trigger or set of triggers.I'm warry of making Bodyguard a reaction, since it would then fail to do its job of protecting multiple creatures or against multiple attacks.

But giving Lunge a more specific trigger is doable!


The ward, I'd make it temporary HP. The abjuration ward isn't temporary HP because abjuration magic involves putting temporary HP on yourself, and would probably still be better if it used temporary HP. The fighter has no such way to apply temporary HP to itself. So use the existing subsystem, not the quirky abjuration one.That has the consequence of making it protect from all forms of damage, rather than only damage from attacks and Dex save effects. I don't think that's unbalanced, but narratively it doesn't make sense. "I parried the poison in my veins. I deflected the cold in the air".


I'd also control its regeneration.

Having it recover on:
Short or long rest
Action surge
Second wind
Critical hit on a hostile non-trivial creature

[...]

We could also keep it as large as it is or larger, but make it only appear for 1 round after an Action Surge or a Second Wind. This adds some fun dynamic tactics.

[...]

You could also tie other features to it, like Bodyguard only working when you have these temporary HP. That would make it viable to add at level 3.

Like:
Bodyguard
When you use Second Wind or an Action Surge, you gain temporary HP equal to twice your fighter level plus your constitution bonus. These temporary HP last until the end of your next turn. While you have these temporary HP, whenever a creature takes damage you can expend your reaction to move up to your speed. If you end your turn within 5' of the creature that took the damage, you can transfer the damage to yourself. After you have done this, you lose the temporary HP.

This doesn't add a new rest based resource. Instead, I boosted existing features. Still probably not what you want.It is, indeed, not what I want. One reason why I'm writing this an not playing a Battle Master or Cavalier is because I hate the monotony of saying "I Attack" every round, a don't think a limited pool of alternative actions comes anywhere near abating that. The goal is to have a viable alternative to the Attack action available every single round, so I'm always making interesting decisions: "Do I attack or do I X?". If Guardian's Ward has to be nerfed to be free, let's nerf it.


and drop its value. Say "fighter level plus constitution bonus". And probably delay it.Sure!

[GalacticAxekick]

Here, I think we have a couple of things in the class overall. Firstly, the power level is significantly too high. The fighter is not a weak class anyway, at least in the early game, and this is a very, very powerful sub-class added on the top.Fair enough! The goal is not to dramatically increase the Fighter's power, but to make it more versatile: to let Fighter to give up offense to improve and share defense.

In other words, the Guardian is meant to offer a "sidegrade" more than an upgrade.

If that isn't what these mechanics accomplish, I'd like to hear your advice on how to achieve it!


Secondly, I think that elements of the class really do overlap too much with other classes, like the rogue and the monk (and to a lesser extent the barbarian). This might be kind of ok with some classes, but each of these is probably weaker than the fighter. Letting the figher be as mobile as these classes for such a small investment kind of invalidates some of the strengths of those other classes.I don't think the Guardian makes Fighters as mobile as Rogues and Monks. The Guardian can move off its own turn, but it's still spending its normal allotment of movement, meaning Rogues and Monks remain significantly faster than it.


I think some of your suggestions could help fix this - avoiding its use as a pre-buff with a 1 round time limit and toning down the numbers would help. I think the big thing is to address the lack of action economy cost. Maybe when you use an action for something other than attack/spell you can use a bonus action to pull this back? Or maybe a reaction? It could be a bonus action, sure. But for a Fighter, who isn't using their bonus action anyway, I'm not sure what difference that's making.


Or, if you want to keep three strong abilities at 3rd level, make it just a couple of times per day.Definitely not. One of the design goals is no resources.


I think that what you have said might highlight the root of the problem though - "mobility is part of the theme". It isn't the whole theme, its just one more part. I think there is too much trying to cram itself into the sub-class. If I had to distill the theme to a phrase, it would be "Fighter who leaps into harm's way to defend allies".

If the Fighter can't leap into harm's way—if enemies can just shoot past them or walk around them—they really can't defend their party without the party huddling around them. And if the subclass only functions while the party huddles around it, it's robbing every other player of options just to get the minimum out of its features.

There might be ways to limit the mobility of Lunge without compromising on the theme and function of the subclass, like "when a creature you can see makes an attack or causes an effect that cover could protect against, you can use your reaction to move up to your speed either (a) to a space adjacent to the target or (b) to a point between the source and target of the effect" (though that's a bit longwinded and clunky).



I think I would combine it into one action. "At 15th level you may use your Deflect ability on any attack against a creature withing 15ft of yourself. If you do, you must also use the same reaction to move within 5ft of the targetted creature". Its a realy good ability, but its level 15 so probably not game breaking.Sure!


Hmm. I had assumed these were basically temp HP. If they are not... then this is even more powerful as it will stack with temp HP, it will not trigger failed death saves, will not trigger concentration saves (unlikely to be a major issue) and will potentially avoid some triggered effects on being dealt damage. I think that temp HP might be better for balance.My one concern with temp HP is that they absorb all forms of damage, while the Ward is only meant to absorb damage from attacks and Dex saves (effects that could be parried with a blade or blocked with a shield). It's mechanically balanced, but thematically untenable for the Guardian to parry poison in their veins or block a chill in the air.

[JNAProductions]

One quick note-Scimitar of Speed breaks this pretty hard. It is very rare, which means you're not likely to get it early-game (where it'd be the most broken) but it lets you do offense with your BA consistently, regardless of your main action.

I am frequently in favor of a subclass being enough, but honestly, I think you'd be better off making this its own class. The Fighter chassis is solid, even without subclasses-if you had a Fighter subclass where every feature was "Gain +3 HP" you'd STILL contribute well, because the core of the class is good.
I think you're trying to add too much to the Fighter-whereas making it its own class lets you do more on its theme, without compromising on power.

[GalacticAxekick]

One quick note-Scimitar of Speed breaks this pretty hard. It is very rare, which means you're not likely to get it early-game (where it'd be the most broken) but it lets you do offense with your BA consistently, regardless of your main action. Oh, that's no concern at all. My friends and I essentially never use official magic items, and whatever magic items do come up are vetted by the DM for interactions with player features.


I am frequently in favor of a subclass being enough, but honestly, I think you'd be better off making this its own class. The Fighter chassis is solid, even without subclasses-if you had a Fighter subclass where every feature was "Gain +3 HP" you'd STILL contribute well, because the core of the class is good.

I think you're trying to add too much to the Fighter-whereas making it its own class lets you do more on its theme, without compromising on power.I'm not trying to add any power whatsoever. I'm trying to add options. I'm trying to write a subclass not to let the Fighter contribute more, but to let the Fighter contribute differently: a Fighter that has interesting alternatives to the Attack action.

I'm 100% willing to compromise on power to provide the Fighter with interesting alternatives to the Attack action.

[JNAProductions]

Oh, that's no concern at all. My friends and I essentially never use official magic items, and whatever magic items do come up are vetted by the DM for interactions with player features.

I'm not trying to add any power whatsoever. I'm trying to add options. I'm trying to write a subclass not to let the Fighter contribute more, but to let the Fighter contribute differently: a Fighter that has interesting alternatives to the Attack action.

I'm 100% willing to compromise on power to provide the Fighter with interesting alternatives to the Attack action.

Options (that are strong enough to be worth using) add power.

[GalacticAxekick]

I don't agree.

[Calen]

My 2 copper

Bodyguard - Good

Guardians Ward - Seems to be generating some controversy. You could consider some alternatives.

Something like Heavy Armor Master that covers more options. Magic attacks and when you have a shield area effects.
Generate smaller amounts of Ward that stacks. Possibly when an enemy misses you.
Turn it into a greater HP per level feature.



Lunge - I like this.

One Eye Open - The latter half seems confusing. Are you trying to create a non-incapacitated incapacitated effect? Maybe a strong bonus on your passive perception while incapacitated/sleeping instead?

Deflect - Sounds awesome, if you are going to change the ward maybe make a roll against the casters DC for spell deflection.

Fancy Footwork - Good

Last Man Standing - Is this missing a line? Don't fall unconscious until you fail X death saves? Don't fall unconscious until you fail a CON save?

[GalacticAxekick]

Bodyguard - Good Glad to hear!


Guardians Ward - Seems to be generating some controversy. You could consider some alternatives.

Something like Heavy Armor Master that covers more options. Magic attacks and when you have a shield area effects.
Generate smaller amounts of Ward that stacks. Possibly when an enemy misses you.
Turn it into a greater HP per level feature. Making it function like Heavy Armor Master or offer greater HP per level makes it completely passive, which fails to meet the design goal of giving the Fighter interesting alternatives to the Attack action every round.

Making the Ward smaller sounds good!


Lunge - I like this. Glad to hear!


One Eye Open - The latter half seems confusing. Are you trying to create a non-incapacitated incapacitated effect? Maybe a strong bonus on your passive perception while incapacitated/sleeping instead?
Being unconscious in 5e has the following effects:
The creature is incapacitated (meaning "unable to take actions or reactions")
The creature can’t move
The creature can't speak
The creature is unaware of its surroundings
The creature drops whatever it’s holding
The creature falls prone.
The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.
Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

One Eye Open allows you to ignore effects 3 (unable to speak) and 4 (unaware of surroundings) but leaves every other effect in effect. You remain incapacitated as normal.


Deflect - Sounds awesome, if you are going to change the ward maybe make a roll against the casters DC for spell deflection. Glad to hear!


Fancy Footwork - GoodGlad to hear!


Last Man Standing - Is this missing a line? Don't fall unconscious until you fail X death saves? Don't fall unconscious until you fail a CON save?It is not missing a line. You don't fall unconscious when you fall to 0 HP: you remain conscious while you are making death saves and after you are stabilized.

You can still die if you fail your death saves or take massive damage, because death is different from unconsciousness and the feature does nothing to prevent death.

[MrStabby]

I wonder if you might be better of shifting this to another class?

Fighter + Guardian is very strong, and to balance it you need to squeeze he guardian abilities more than you might want.

If you changed the fighter part to a weaker class you might open a few doors to less nerved versions of the abilities.

A rogue guardian for example would be a strong all-rounder and a strong subclass option would offset their weaker class options.

My suggestion though would be for the monk. The monastic guardian and the acetic selflessness of taking damage for others might fir the monk class quite well.

Deflect becomes an enhanced deflect missiles, and as a lot of the abilities would take a lot out of you, this could easily be represented by Ki costs (which would also allow them to be more powerful).

Monk also doesn't really need to be magic, which might fit your style.

[Calen]

Glad to hear!

Making it function like Heavy Armor Master or offer greater HP per level makes it completely passive, which fails to meet the design goal of giving the Fighter interesting alternatives to the Attack action every round.

Making the Ward smaller sounds good!

Glad to hear!


It is not missing a line. You don't fall unconscious when you fall to 0 HP: you remain conscious while you are making death saves and after you are stabilized.

You can still die if you fail your death saves or take massive damage, because death is different from unconsciousness and the feature does nothing to prevent death.

Missed the Attack alternative. Maybe you could generate Ward by substituting one of the attacks you could take with the attack action and protect a allied creature. (Small buff to them like +2 AC or something) and you generate Ward. A creature may only be protected by one source of Ward at a time.

Last Man Standing seems very powerful to me in its current iteration.

[GalacticAxekick]

I wonder if you might be better of shifting this to another class?Right off the bat, I see thematic and mechanical issues.

A Guardian as a Rogue, for instance, would lack support for martial weapons and armors, lack the option to fight toe-to-toe, and have a variety thematically unrelated features like thieves' tools, Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant, & Cunning Action's Hide that would force a player to play against the theme to function.

Likewise, a Guardian as a Monk would lack support for martial weapons and armors, rely on Ki as a resource, and have a variety of thematically unrelated features like Unarmored Defense, Flurry of Blows, and Unarmored Movement forcing a player to play against theme to function.

If changing class were necessary to balance the Guardian, I might make it a Rogue. But then...


Fighter + Guardian is very strong, and to balance it you need to squeeze he guardian abilities more than you might want.

If you changed the fighter part to a weaker class you might open a few doors to less nerved versions of the abilities....I'm totally happy to nerf the guardian's abilities! What I'm not willing to do is tie them to a resource or render them passive, because either change would fail to offer round-to-round options that are the goal of this project.

The finished Guardian should offer alternatives to what the Fighter chassis does, rather than bonuses on top of it, such that the PCs contribution has not increased: only shifted from offense to defense.

[GalacticAxekick]

I've run some math on the strength of Guardian's Ward, if you want to read the graph (https://www.desmos.com/calculator/skyohjahg4), here are instructions:

My goal is to make Guardian's Ward equal and opposite to the Attack action. In other words, if a Guardian Fighter uses his action to replenish the ward, and an enemy Fighter of the same level uses her action to Attack, the guardian should (on average) absorb just as much damage as the enemy dealt.
If the HP of Guardian's Ward is W, and if the average damage dealt by the enemy Fighter is D, then W/D is how many enemy Fighters are necessary to match the Guardian.
If W/D is roughly 1, it takes 1 enemy Fighter to match the Guardian, and the Ward is balanced.
If W/D is much more than 1, it takes multiple enemy Fighters to match the Guardian, and the Ward is overpowered
If W/D is much less than 1, it takes multiple Guardians to match one enemy Fighter, and the Ward is underpowered
But neither the HP of the ward nor the damage dealt by an enemy Fighter are constant! They both increase as the characters gain levels. And so while y = W/D, x = Fighter level. You can check how balanced the Ward is at any given level!
But there's another factor! The higher the AC of the Guardian (or whatever ally they are defending), the lower the average damage of the enemy Fighter, and the more powerful the Ward becomes circumstantially. I've included a slider for AC so that you can check the Ward's balance against a variety of targets.
One last factor! When the enemy Fighter attacks with advantage, their average damage goes up and the Ward becomes circumstantially weaker. And when the enemy Fighter attacks with disadvantage, their average damage goes up and the Ward becomes circumstantially stronger. This is important to consider in the case of the Ward replenishing as its own action or as part of other actions (such as the Dodge action). I've included a green line for ordinary attacks, a red line for advantage attacks, and a blue line for disadvantage attacks.

If you aren't interested in reading the graph, here's the bottom line:
If the Ward has 2 x Fighter level + STR/DEX HP, the Guardian far too good at defending himself, but reasonably good at defending allies:
defend himself against 2 or 3 enemy Fighters without Dodging
defend himself against 3 or 4 enemy Fighters by Dodging
defend a lower AC ally against 1 enemy Fighter.
If the Ward has 1 x Fighter level + STR/DEX HP,, the Guardian reasonably good at defending himself, but ineffective at defending allies:
defend himself against 1 enemy Fighter without Dodging
defend himself against 2 or 3 enemy Fighters by Dodging
fail to defend a lower AC ally against 1 enemy Fighter.

Overall, a 1 x level + STR/DEX ward seems like the conservative way to go. It can defend an optimized Guardian against 100% of the damage from a CR appropriate enemy, but lets a little damage slip past if it is used to defend a lower AC ally. It's weak enough that it isn't worth using every single round (the enemy would just take out your allies and then gang up on you), but strong enough that it is worth using in certain rounds (to protect an ally who is on death's door, to protect an ally who is concentrating, or to run a gauntlet, for instance)

Did I miss anything?

[Calen]

If I am reading that graph right the ward starts to fall off at level 11. Maybe you can introduce a way to refresh the ward other than an action (Dash would give some synergy) or to partially top off a Ward.

Deflecting Line spells seems very niche.
With a lower Ward health you won't be blocking most line effects unless you make the save.
Maybe if you make the save you can use your reaction to block the line at that point protecting people behind you, if you negate with Ward you can reflect it another direction.
Makes that a little more useful.

[GalacticAxekick]

If I am reading that graph right the ward starts to fall off at level 11. Maybe you can introduce a way to refresh the ward other than an action (Dash would give some synergy) or to partially top off a Ward.I could introduce the Ward refreshing on miscellaneous actions (Dashes, Disengages, etc) as the 10th level subclass feature, just before the Ward alone begins to drop off in power. How does that sound?


Deflecting Line spells seems very niche.
With a lower Ward health you won't be blocking most line effects unless you make the save.It's definitely niche, and if that was all the Deflect feature did it would be quite weak. But the feature also allows the Guardian to deflect ranged attacks in general, which I would hope makes it less niche.


Maybe if you make the save you can use your reaction to block the line at that point protecting people behind you, if you negate with Ward you can reflect it another direction.

Makes that a little more useful.3rd level's "Bodyguard" feature already allows you to protect people behind you from lines and other area effects, reaction free!

"Starting at 3rd level, when an attack or a Magic Missile deals damage to a target within 5 ft of you, you can choose to take the damage instead, and when you give a target cover against an effect you can see, you can choose to give full cover."

So adding a "block the line" clause to Deflect wouldn't actually do anything.

[Calen]

I could introduce the Ward refreshing on miscellaneous actions (Dashes, Disengages, etc) as the 10th level subclass feature, just before the Ward alone begins to drop off in power. How does that sound?
Perfect.


So adding a "block the line" clause to Deflect wouldn't actually do anything.
Maybe I have been using line spells wrong this entire time, :smalleek: but my understanding is that line spell are unaffected by cover and therefore Bodyguard does not work with them, it would only work with cone weapons or spheres that do not have the "travels around corners" clause?

[GalacticAxekick]

Maybe I have been using line spells wrong this entire time, :smalleek: but my understanding is that line spell are unaffected by cover and therefore Bodyguard does not work with them, it would only work with cone weapons or spheres that do not have the "travels around corners" clause?The following are 5e's rules for cover:
Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws.
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws.
A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect

The shape of the area doesn't seem to matter. What matters is that it (1) originates from the opposite side of the cover and (2) involves an attack roll or Dexterity saving throw. If an effect checks both of those boxes, cover can protect a creature from it. This is the case for every line effect in the game as far as I know: (Catapult, Tasha's Caustic Brew, Aganazzar's Scorcher, Lightning Bolt, and various dragon breaths).

[Calen]

Well I have learned something. :smallredface:
Maybe there is some other way to make Deflection of spells more usable because I think that it is awesome enough to get more utility out of it.

[SyntheticHuman]

I would personally either nerf the ward, like by only being able to use it once per rest, or strengthen it slightly and put it at a higher level.

[GalacticAxekick]

I would personally either nerf the ward, like by only being able to use it once per rest, or strengthen it slightly and put it at a higher level.Limiting any features per rest defeats a design goal, so if I nerf it it'll be something like reducing the HP it offers or what action is used to replenish it.

Does that sound reasonable?