Preventing Resurrection with Divination

[Ortho]

Divination
4th-level divination (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (incense and a sacrificial offering appropriate to your religion, together worth at least 25 gp, which the spell consumes)
Duration: Instantaneous

I've just had a particularly evil idea.

Let's say a Lich I'm planning to run kills a player character. Before said character is resurrected via Revivify or what have you, the Lich casts Divination, using the newly-killed corpse as the "sacrificial offering" material component. The body is consumed by the spell, and hey presto, cheap and easy way to prevent resurrection.


So....would this even work? There's certainly a few hurdles you have to jump through.

Or is this too evil to run against my players in the first place? Personally, I quite like the idea of the Lich perverting such a harmless spell as a finisher to prevent resurrection, if only for the style points.

[JackPhoenix]

Hey, if the lich wants to waste its actions and slots, cool. At least it's not fighting at full capacity while leaving minions to just cut off heads.

[Psyren]

It would stop Raise Dead and Revivify for sure.

Stopping Resurrection would require that you consume every scrap of them, so you can't let any bits come off that the players could use, that might includes things like hair or blood or teeth.

It would not stop True Resurrection.

[ProsecutorGodot]

What is the worth of a man? Hopefully at least 25gp.

If a value can't be attributed to the corpse, the Lich would instead be required to use 25gp worth of incense. Otherwise, sure, it would technically work to foil basic resurrection methods.

It's hard to tell how much incense that is, since incense doesn't have a cost associated with it.

All we have to work with is the Priest Pack valued at 19gp, which has 4.3gp worth of listed value and 4 items with no listed value, which includes 2 blocks of incense. All we can say for sure is that 25gp worth of incense is at the very least much more than 2 blocks.

If we give the other unlisted items a price based on similar items, a censer to a lamp (5sp), vestments to Costume Clothes (5gp) and an Alms Box to a Case (1gp) that puts our priest pack at 10.8 gp before incense. Divide the remaining 8.2gp by two and we can determine, rounding down to the nearest gp, that one block of incense is worth 4gp.

That means the Lich needs at least 7 blocks of incense.

[Unoriginal]

I've just had a particularly evil idea.

Let's say a Lich I'm planning to run kills a player character. Before said character is resurrected via Revivify or what have you, the Lich casts Divination, using the newly-killed corpse as the "sacrificial offering" material component. The body is consumed by the spell, and hey presto, cheap and easy way to prevent resurrection.


So....would this even work? There's certainly a few hurdles you have to jump through.

Or is this too evil to run against my players in the first place? Personally, I quite like the idea of the Lich perverting such a harmless spell as a finisher to prevent resurrection, if only for the style points.

I mean, it could work if the Lich has enough incense on hand, but so would casting any spell to destroy the corpse. Even a cantrip could put a corpse beyond the reach of Revivify, depending on the cantrip.

[Lord Vukodlak]

First off if I had DM pulled that trick I'd consider it a **)*)* move.
Secondly no evil god accepts an already dead person as a sacrifice. It feels silly to me. The act of killing them would be the sacrifice which would leave the body intact. Or some body part is burnt as part of the ritual, heart, eyes, brain etc.(which would ruin raise dead even without the spell).

[GloatingSwine]

A corpse that isn't yours is hardly a sacrifice at all.

Sacrificial offerings are not trash disposal.

If you want to kill off a player character just eat them.

[Chronos]

ProsecutorGodot, most of the equipment packs offer a package discount over buying all of their components individually. So unless we know how much of a discount the priest's pack gives, we can't use that to constrain the price of incense.

Ironically aside from the priest's pack, it doesn't much matter in-game how much incense costs, because most references to it are by price, anyway: 10 GP worth of incense costs 10 GP. But if we do want an estimate, we can look to real-world values: A quick Google shows frankincense essence at around $6000 per liter, and given an estimate of 1 GP = $200 (which is at least in the right ballpark, though of course currency conversions are always somewhat fuzzy), that'd be around 15 GP per pound.

Back to the OP, though, I'm not sure spell components work that way. When a spell component is "consumed", it means that they're altered sufficiently that they can't be resold or used for another spell, not necessarily that they're utterly annihilated. A lot of spells with consumed components describe how the components are consumed, and it's usually not annihilation: They might be eaten, or rubbed into the skin, or poured out on the ground, or burned, or dissolved, or whatever. A corpse sacrificed to an evil deity probably couldn't be used to make an undead (which would be a genuine sacrifice for a lich, even if they don't "own" the body), but it'd still leave some amount of remains, which could be used for Resurrection.

[Keltest]

A corpse that isn't yours is hardly a sacrifice at all.

Sacrificial offerings are not trash disposal.

If you want to kill off a player character just eat them.

This is where I stand as well. An already dead body is no sacrifice, its just a mess.

[LibraryOgre]

A corpse that isn't yours is hardly a sacrifice at all.

Sacrificial offerings are not trash disposal.

If you want to kill off a player character just eat them.

What you actually need to do is KIDNAP the player character, then use them as a sacrifice.

Great way to get an unwanted PC out of the game (i.e. the player wants to switch), and up the stakes for the character. I'd use it for something slightly grander than a 4th level spell, though.

[Unoriginal]

Note that lore-wise, it's going to be hard for a Lich to have thst kind of divine power.

If a deity wants you to stay active in the world, there are much better options than having you become a Lich, and few deuties are going to give juice to a mortal who's actively trying to keep their soul out of the god's hands.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Note that lore-wise, it's going to be hard for a Lich to have thst kind of divine power.

If a deity wants you to stay active in the world, there are much better options than having you become a Lich, and few deuties are going to give juice to a mortal who's actively trying to keep their soul out of the god's hands.

Many liches end up serving Orcus for knowledge on the process. Vecna might be an option too, depending on if your setting treats him as a deity or not. A lich having a god who's interest lie more in having powerful servants that unlive forever isn't out of the question.

Otherwise, this is a pretty good point - Divination (the spell) isn't a Wizard spell, so you would also have to be a Divine Caster of some kind able to cast up to 4th level spells. A Lich granted such powers by their evil god would be very different from a standard Lich.

[Unoriginal]

Many liches end up serving Orcus for knowledge on the process. Vecna might be an option too, depending on if your setting treats him as a deity or not. A lich having a god who's interest lie more in having powerful servants that unlive forever isn't out of the question.

Indeed, it's not impossible, just pretty uncommon.

Orcus is not a deity in 5e, though.



Otherwise, this is a pretty good point - Divination (the spell) isn't a Wizard spell, so you would also have to be a Divine Caster of some kind able to cast up to 4th level spells. A Lich granted such powers by their evil god would be very different from a standard Lich.

Yeah. Or the Lich could have found a way to go "I'm not asking" and is forcing the god to give them the power one way or another, which would be even more different.

[LibraryOgre]

You know, a Bard could do this.

[Greywander]

So....would this even work?
I want to say "no" but I can't find any reason it wouldn't work.

The action economy makes this less of a sure thing. Since Divination is an action casting time, the lich most likely won't be able to kill and cast Divination on the same turn.


Or is this too evil to run against my players in the first place?
It could be a tactically sound move if the players are Revivifying mid-combat and sending the resurrected character back into combat. Otherwise, if the character is no longer a threat (at least for the rest of the fight), then it comes off as especially spiteful when the lich could be using its action to target remaining PCs instead. It says that the lich cares more about pissing off the players than it does about winning the fight. YMMV on if you want an antagonist who is that spiteful.

This could actually fit well with the action economy issue. The lich wants the players to scramble to Revivify the dead PC, just so they can kill them again on their next turn. It wants to give them just enough hope that they can somehow find a way to win, only to rip that hope away. It wants them to choose to abandon their party members in order to focus on killing the lich. This is basically the villain that knows it isn't enough to simply beat the hero, they want to subvert the hero and turn them into a villain. I can't help but think of Slade from Teen Titans and how he tried to corrupt Robin.


Note that lore-wise, it's going to be hard for a Lich to have thst kind of divine power.
Do you need to be an arcane caster to become a lich? Death clerics would be good candidates for lichdom. Considering that deities like Orcus know the secret to becoming a lich, it would fit pretty well for a cleric of Orcus to become a lich.

[Unoriginal]

Do you need to be an arcane caster to become a lich?

In 5e? The MM's entry makes clear Liches are wizards and need to do an arcane ritual for their transformation. Also, they need to use the 9th level spell Imprisonment to feed souls to their phylactery, and being a wizard is the most straightforward way to get the spell.

Alhoons are Psionic Liches, though, so hypothetically others could develop, discover or be granted their own variant.

However, it goes into the other point...



Death clerics would be good candidates for lichdom.

As I said above, it's not impossible for a god to want to empower a mortal who explicitly refuses to come join them once their lifetime is up (or for the god to be forced to give the power one way or another), but it'll be an extremely rare set of circumstances. Perhaps the Lich is the Cleric of an ideal who cares not about such thing, though

Also as I said above, if a god/ideal wants a mortal to stay on the mortal world, they have better methods than lichdom to do it.



Considering that deities like Orcus know the secret to becoming a lich, it would fit pretty well for a cleric of Orcus to become a lich.

Orcus isn't a deity in 5e, and cannot empower Clerics. He wishes to become a god, though

[solidork]

Divination is a Wizard spell as of Tasha's. It's simple enough to make them unable to resurrect in a more mundane way, or even raise their dead friend as a minion, so if you're going to be doing anti-resurrection stuff I don't see a reason to not do it this way.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Divination is a Wizard spell as of Tasha's. It's simple enough to make them unable to resurrect in a more mundane way, or even raise their dead friend as a minion, so if you're going to be doing anti-resurrection stuff I don't see a reason to not do it this way.

This reminds me once again that I despise that DND Beyond doesn't include mentions of Tasha's expanded spell lists in the actual spell search menu, you have to go directly to the class page or the Tasha's sourcebook.

Disintegrate is usually a good option for accomplishing both of the lich's goals here.

[Willowhelm]

What you actually need to do is KIDNAP the player character, then use them as a sacrifice.

Great way to get an unwanted PC out of the game (i.e. the player wants to switch), and up the stakes for the character. I'd use it for something slightly grander than a 4th level spell, though.

Exactly. Who needs it to be a corpse for a sacrifice?

Of course… you could also sacrifice the bbeg if you allow this. No save.

[Damon_Tor]

I'm confused. The lich can't just cast disintegrate?

But really, the very best way to prevent resurrection is to keep the soul captive. And there are plenty of ways to do this.

You could also subvert all of this by resurrecting them YOURSELF. Make clones of the party, remove the clones' hands, feet, and tongues, and lock them away someplace you can make sure they will never die but also cannot ever harm you. Then once you kill one of the party the soul will wind up in one of the clones, and when their teammates try to res them it will necessarily fail.

[Unoriginal]

I'm confused. The lich can't just cast disintegrate?

Well the Lich can just cast an object-damaging cantrip on the corpse that makes it too damaged for Revivify or other "mid-combat" revival options, if they're willing to spend one action the turn after they killed a PC on making sure they don't come back this fight.

[JackPhoenix]

Well the Lich can just cast an object-damaging cantrip on the corpse that makes it too damaged for Revivify or other "mid-combat" revival options, if they're willing to spend one action the turn after they killed a PC on making sure they don't come back this fight.

Evem better, liches can use cantrips as legendary action. No need to waste their regular actions.

[LibraryOgre]

Exactly. Who needs it to be a corpse for a sacrifice?

Of course… you could also sacrifice the bbeg if you allow this. No save.

Problem with that is "Will your PCs deity take a humanish sacrifice?" Bhaal, the Lord of Murder, is probably fine with a human sacrifice. Eldath, the Goddess of Peace, is probably not going to be down for it.

[GloatingSwine]

Problem with that is "Will your PCs deity take a humanish sacrifice?" Bhaal, the Lord of Murder, is probably fine with a human sacrifice. Eldath, the Goddess of Peace, is probably not going to be down for it.

Yeah, though I can't think of many gods that would accept a corpse as a sacrifice. Maybe Nurgle, but only if it had a really interesting disease.

It's the act of killing that makes the sacrifice, not the waste disposal.

[herrhauptmann]

Yeah, though I can't think of many gods that would accept a corpse as a sacrifice. Maybe Nurgle, but only if it had a really interesting disease.

It's the act of killing that makes the sacrifice, not the waste disposal.
Absolutely. Unless it's a spell that requires x pounds of meat, I think BoVD had a few.

Also why do some tables seem to focus on Orcus for liches? Yeah he's undead or whatever, but there are so many paths to lichdom.

I don't think this is a good strategy for mid combat by the way. It's just a big F.U. to the players since you're giving up actions almost guaranteeing your defeat, but removing players from the game. Of course if you *win* and do this to the captive or a person making death saves while everyone else flees, that would probably be okay.

[LibraryOgre]

"I have a variant of magic missile that I use a lot; it's not a lot more powerful, but it has the material component of 'the corpse of one of your enemies.'"

[Unoriginal]

Also why do some tables seem to focus on Orcus for liches? Yeah he's undead or whatever, but there are so many paths to lichdom.

5e explicitly notes that Orcus is the most common source for the knowledge to become a lich.

There are far fewer paths to lichdom this edition.

[herrhauptmann]

5e explicitly notes that Orcus is the most common source for the knowledge to become a lich.

There are far fewer paths to lichdom this edition.

Thank you.

[Chronos]

Also remember that even if a lich is defeated, it still comes back (provided that those pesky adventurers don't find its phylactery). From a lich's point of view, permakilling one party member and then getting ganked yourself is a win, because now when you come back for Round 2, they'll be down one combatant. Repeat a few times, and you've TPKed them.

[herrhauptmann]

Also remember that even if a lich is defeated, it still comes back (provided that those pesky adventurers don't find its phylactery). From a lich's point of view, permakilling one party member and then getting ganked yourself is a win, because now when you come back for Round 2, they'll be down one combatant. Repeat a few times, and you've TPKed them.

What's the current timetable for coming back? A couple of days? That might not be worth it if they could conceivably find and destroy it in the interim.

Plus, now they've got a lot of your stuff.

[Chronos]

Quoth herrhauptmann:

Plus, now they've got a lot of your stuff.
Well, maybe. If this is all going down in the heart of the lich's lair, then yeah, they do get most of your stuff, and a good chance at finding your phylactery as well. But if you're being pro-active and ambushing them on the road twenty leagues before they get to your lair, then they're probably not getting much more than one suit of clothes and a component pouch. Especially if you went out to meet them on the road with the expectation that you might be trading one of your lives for one of theirs.

[herrhauptmann]

Ahh, yeah big difference there.

Does 5e have a simulacrum spell still?

As the DM it would be important to keep it fair if you're using scry and die tactics. So if they're all warded against scrying, you need agents to find and identify them. Which can be its own subplot.