Spheres of Guile, anything cool or just vibes you want to talk about?

[Ramza00]

Spheres of Guile is finally out, almost a month by now :smallsmile:

And I finally have it, and more importantly I have a little time in real life where I can start exploring it gradually. I am making this thread so people can share thoughts, cool things, vibes etc.

Some of SoG is on the Spheres of Power wiki, they are slowly adding it but it is not all up there at the moment. Anyway a pdf is a mere $25 for over 300 pages of content that has been playtested and worked through for the last 2 years :smalltongue:

[Seerow]

Spheres of Guile is finally out, almost a month by now :smallsmile:

And I finally have it, and more importantly I have a little time in real life where I can start exploring it gradually. I am making this thread so people can share thoughts, cool things, vibes etc.

Some of SoG is on the Spheres of Power wiki, they are slowly adding it but it is not all up there at the moment. Anyway a pdf is a mere $25 for over 300 pages of content that has been playtested and worked through for the last 2 years :smalltongue:

I haven't dropped the money on the PDF yet, been waiting to see if I actually like it or not. Which is tough given most of the spheres themselves aren't up yet.

I do really like the expanded skill rules, lots of extra baseline uses for skills that add a fair bit of depth and make things a bit more interesting. Actually remembering that these are all things you can do is probably the harder job, but overall there's some neat stuff in there, and I like the recommendations of doing things like free 1st level skill unlocks and background skills. (that said given all of your guile sphere give free skill ranks, adding in background skills as a bonus I can easily see some characters who just have every skill. I've already got a player in my current game playing a rogue-specced Hedgewitch who has something like 20 skills maxed out)

That said I have very real concerns with the bulk of the book. I'm not sure how much of it is just "This is all new to me and I am overwhelmed" so it may very well fade when I get more used to it... but just looking at the classes, it feels like there is so much to them, they feel overdeveloped and a kind of pidgeonholed flavor. Like someone looked at the Wraith and said "Yes, this is the ideal of what a class should be". I suspect I'll be a lot happier once I start seeing guile focused archetypes of regular classes, as I have similar problems with a lot of the unique classes from Spheres. And the one class I feel like I am missing is the Conscript/Invoker equivalent. I suspect that's supposed to be the Professional, but again the Professional has so many more specific mechanics tied to it than those other two.

I'm also not entirely sure how I feel about the talents that have been uploaded so far. Like I was looking through the Artifice sphere, and nothing stood out as particularly useful. Any utilities felt really niche, and combat capability isn't really there. Hoping this is just a bad first impression, and am looking forward to diving in more when more of the spheres are actually up, but the impression I get is that the Guile Spheres are here to give lots of minor utilities, while you rely more on your class to give direction for what you do with that utility (also explaining why the classes are more focused with more unique mechanics). Which would be fine if guile spheres are just an optional free add-on for everyone, but they're being presented as equal to Might and Power. I can have my Ranger give up their 4th level casting for low Spherecasting or low Guile progression. So I expect those 15 guile talents to be equivalent to the 10 magic talents the magic equivalent gets. Right now I have the impression that's not really happening, but there's a lot more content I haven't gotten to look at yet so I stand ready to be way off.

[Ramza00]

(that said given all of your guile sphere give free skill ranks, adding in background skills as a bonus I can easily see some characters who just have every skill. I've already got a player in my current game playing a rogue-specced Hedgewitch who has something like 20 skills maxed out)

Yeah Hedgewitch is an interesting level 1 “champion” dip with these new rules.

They will be an adroit skillcaster so their 1st level you can trade their class skills for 4 vocational trade talents making about 16 skills class skills for each trade talent usually is 4 skills or more.

Plus 2 Skill Talents. Throw in the racial Skill Talent for most of the races can trade the +2 to racial skills, or the Human Skill +1 they get for another Skill Talent and that is 3 Skill Talents and 4 vocational trade talents. And as soon as you multiclass to anything else that is 5 vocational trade talents for about 20 Favored Skills and 15 associated skill ranks. Not raw power but still nice skill monkey at low levels.

Hedgewitch is also a 3/4 caster and gets 2 paths at level 1. Martial Hedgewitches lose 1 path but get Martial Tradition for 4 of those SoM talents plus 1 more combat talent at level 1.

Take the Triple Goddess archetype with the 2nd path and you get your +2 casting talents from any casting tradition and +2 bonus talents but those bonus talents must be life, death, or fate related. Lastly while your CL is 3/4 for a 1 level dip with life, death, and fate your CL is 1 so you are full CL on those 3 spheres.

That is a whole lot for 1 level dip into Hedgewitch, easy to see someone multi classing out to Incanter, Sphere Witch, Sphere Wizard, Sphere Arcanist, etc.

(Just vibing and thinking things out)

[Kitsuneymg]

Between the facing rules (yes really) and the “optional variant” of limiting skill bonuses to 3/2 your level in the skill hero book, I regret kickstarting this piece of ****.

[vasilidor]

Between the facing rules (yes really) and the “optional variant” of limiting skill bonuses to 3/2 your level in the skill hero book, I regret kickstarting this piece of ****.

The facing rules make sense to me and they are situational based on the alertness level of the person if I read it correctly. What is the skill bonus limit thing? I think I missed that. If you got a page number that would be great.

[Ramza00]

The facing rules make sense to me and they are situational based on the alertness level of the person if I read it correctly. What is the skill bonus limit thing? I think I missed that. If you got a page number that would be great.

Page 31 and 32 of SoG.

First it is a variant and not required for SoG. The logic is with stacking 2 or more bonus sources you can easily surpass bonuses of 10+character level + 1/2*character level. Put it this way does a level 8 character need more than 8 ranks, plus 3 class skill, plus ability modifier plus bonuses plus circumstance / sitiuational? When with bonuses you can get alchemy, competence, enhancement, insight, luck, morale, profane, sacred, racial, trait. Do we think the general modifier for the character of level 8 should be higher than +22?







Second it is already listed on the skills of power srd / wiki here if you have not bought the book.

http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/skill-rules

Not going to quote all 2 pages and the surrounding context, I have faith you can find (Variant: Capped Total Modifiers) and it’s 1 paragraph and it’s surrounding context and the other variants it lists nearby. Remember it gives stuff for free with this trade. Returning to skills are “relevant” for auto success skills are effectively skills that do not exist unless you critically fail the d20 role.

[vasilidor]

I have the book.
At level 1 this means that a character would be limited to +11.
I am now going to take a look at the goblin. They get a +4 to stealth because they are small, another +4 for being goblin. then if they put a skill point in it and it is a class skill we get 12. And that is before we get into dexterity bonuses.
But this is listed as a variant rule, not a base assumption.
I run a spheres based game and I would not use that variant to be honest.

[AvatarVecna]

Behold, a filthy optimizer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/goblin/). Thank god he put his highest pre-race attribute into Str and didn't spent any skill ranks on Stealth, or he'd be hitting the limit!


I have the book.
At level 1 this means that a character would be limited to +11.
I am now going to take a look at the goblin. They get a +4 to stealth because they are small, another +4 for being goblin. then if they put a skill point in it and it is a class skill we get 12. And that is before we get into dexterity bonuses.
But this is listed as a variant rule, not a base assumption.
I run a spheres based game and I would not use that variant to be honest.

or trait bonuses, or masterwork tools, or (heaven forbid) Skill Focus. Let alone something so cheesy as some snazzy magic elf boots.

[Seerow]

I have the book.
At level 1 this means that a character would be limited to +11.
I am now going to take a look at the goblin. They get a +4 to stealth because they are small, another +4 for being goblin. then if they put a skill point in it and it is a class skill we get 12. And that is before we get into dexterity bonuses.
But this is listed as a variant rule, not a base assumption.
I run a spheres based game and I would not use that variant to be honest.

To be fair, outside of Stealth and Athletics(Jump) how many skills can you get over +11 on at level 1 normally? Unless you're regularly investing in Skill Focus, 9-10 is the highest you'll typically see. 11 is a trained class skill with a +5 stat and +2 trait.

That said I agree that I probably wouldn't use it myself. But I can definitely see the appeal of saying "Look this is the best a skill can be at this level" so that there is room to have challenges even for hyper specialized characters

[AvatarVecna]

To be fair, outside of Stealth and Athletics(Jump) how many skills can you get over +11 on at level 1 normally? Unless you're regularly investing in Skill Focus, 9-10 is the highest you'll typically see. 11 is a trained class skill with a +5 stat and +2 trait.

That said I agree that I probably wouldn't use it myself. But I can definitely see the appeal of saying "Look this is the best a skill can be at this level" so that there is room to have challenges even for hyper specialized characters

Lots of races have skill bonuses. Default human doesn't, but they get a bonus feat which makes Skill Focus take up a smaller percentage of your build resources; this also applies to Half-Elves, who get Skill Focus for free. Speaking of which, I think it's weird you're characterizing skill focus as something that's too much, just because it can make this arbitrary limit easy to pierce? The reason skill focus doesn't get taken frequently is because it's generally pretty garbage unless you're making an absolute skill specialist - if it were giving a big enough bonus to warrant a feat slot for non-specialists, it would be even bigger.

I also think it's kinda weird that Spheres frames this as a problem with non-core additions to PF, particularly by non-Paizo developers, as if half the problem isn't the core ability to make a magic item giving you a +30 to skills, and how that being on the table shapes expectations across the board. Extra weird because one of those non-Paizo developers handing out big skill bonuses is DDS in their Spheres material.

[Ramza00]

Behold, a filthy optimizer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/goblin/).

Did you just call Goblins … a chicken? Ba-gawk!

[exelsisxax]

I concur with Seerow. The guile content itself does not seem interesting, useful, or elegant. It does not in any way whatsoever fix the various problems with the PF skill system.

It looks like a massive explosion of the SoP to SoM problem. SoP was abusable, but it did an amazing job of completely replacing vancian magic with something that was simpler, more interesting, more flavorful and thematic, and more mechanically deep. SoM was a bit abusable, but it didn't replace anything. it just added an extra layer of feat+ on top of the extant feat system so that everyone could do martial combat without needing to wait to level 4 and had more access to both new and old secondary kinds of combat options. It didn't fundamentally change how martials worked as part of a plan to improve general combat mechanics.
Guile looks even worse. Virtually everything are conditional niche abilities that you accumulate in huge numbers rather than the punchy impactful ones you can find in SoP and SoM. So many huge lists of individual abilities with all kinds of bonus types, and tons of them are both temporary (because who doesn't love tracking 5 durations at all times?) and conditional (oh no that's only a bonus against nauseate, sicken, and poison!). And all of this is layered in smaller chunks with more unnecessary terminology, far exacerbating the bloat of SoP or SoM, on top of the existing skill system. The problem with skills was already that they were low-impact and filled with way too many individual uses, bonuses, relevant items, and feats! you can't fix that by adding more junk onto the pile!

I am not impressed. I've seen nothing in any guile sphere that doesn't feel terrible. The base rules have some good rule insights (precision of senses and degrees of awareness) combined with some wildly nitpicky new conditions, including all the anger scale. I'm going to trawl through the new skill uses and see if there's any hidden gems, but my expectations are low.

[vasilidor]

I like Envoys and their ability to literally talk someone to death (provided they take the thing that makes the base ability lethal)

[Thunder999]

I think the optional rule might be set a little low, but it's optional and I can see why it might be needed, anything that lets you use a skill check for combat stuff runs into the issue of just how much easier skills are to pump than anything else.
Particularly relevant since I imagine you'd want to just slot these classes/mechanics into a normal-ish game where NPCs are generally not built to care about most of their skills.

I like the plan rules, Brilliant Planner is a personal favourite 1pp feat, and I love the Time Talent that lets you retroactively buy stuff, though I suppose it'll come down to how good the relevant talents are.

[Ramza00]

This is just me but I think these rules work well if your DM allows what I am about to say

with secondary cohortsleadership sphere, SoM whose job is not to do things in battle (perhaps to provide drama and run away like sir robin) but instead to provide out of combat options. And since they are NPC they may generally help the party if treated well as full humanoids with respect, but also they are options for the DM to direct the plot and create conflict, backstories, gentle railroading that feels natural etc.

And you can make these cohorts be “students” from leadership sphere, and then focusing on their speciality like alchemy to heal the party, study and knowing 2 to 10 full knowledge skills, performancetoss a coin to your witcher, stealth and scouting, etc.

A shapechanging human who turns into a giant raven (small) but also knows some war paint to help one hide and see things, little hobbits to follow Gandalf around, the envoy who announces your royalty to a foreign court, a Virgil guide who introduces you to the foreign land since you are from out of town.pilgrims in a strange land.

The possibilities are endless.

————

Edit: oh god there is literal a talent and class chain for Talk No Jutsu in the communication sphere by itself and an upgraded version with Squad Operator (mastermind)

You establish rapport, and one of the thing rapport allows is the sharing of utility talents from the communication sphere.

Then squad operator allows the sharing of non communication sphere talents. A level 7 ability lets the SO Mastermind share talents from your ally to the people you are rapporting with you as a medium linking the participants in the rapport.

Let’s be friends, or let me give you the social skills to tell someone to metaphorically die as part of the plan! Now I invoked Naruto, but I could have invoked Cyrano de Beaurgic, and the scariest version is like something from Death Note.

[thethird]

Personally I need to do a lot more reading, but what I have read so far doesn't appeal to me that much. I'll try to articulate the sentiment.

I guess it's a problem of expectations, I was expecting skillfull use of skills in combat. Because at it's core the game is a combat simulator. But those apparently were already done in spheres of might (yes I expected stuff like the scoundrel or the scout sphere).

What I am seeing is a lot of niche skill use. Is it usable? Yes, certainly. Is it better than vanilla skill system? Well it's approaching skills like they are feats. That isn't terrible but character builds are more strained for feats than they are for skills. So basically most character builds won't have the resources to approach this because what they are getting is mostly skills that they could get without spending resources. Granted they won't be as focused in specific niches as with spheres of guile. But why would they want to?

So in summary. Is it giving potentially interesting out of combat use of skills. Yes. But those compete with in combat options, and when it comes to in combat options it seems unappealing (to me) and niche. It honestly feels like bloat.

That said, how I would approach this or might try to houserule it down the line. Each talent is worth 5 skill ranks, they give 5 skill ranks in a particular skill when taken. And I would say that the niche use of the associated talent compensates the not being able to put those talents wherever you want. So divide how many skill ranks you would get per level by 5 (any extra skill ranks you could allocate normally) and you get that many skill associated talents. That way it's not competing with your "combat" resources. The maximum skill ranks per talent are still there, so you can either diversity (getting more skills) or specialize getting more focused. Your choice. It's a pain at very low level (where you might rather just not bother with it) but I think it should be feasible starting at 4th? Maybe 5 isn't the magic number, maybe you prefer 4? Dunno. Haven't given it much of a spin.

Also, side note, as an optimizer I must say that the artifice sphere gave (to my knowledge) the first published option for making special materials alloys.

[Kitsuneymg]

a 32 page soft cover style book of 3.5 skill tricks would have been a better, more useful product. And I would probably not have felt like I wasted money on it.

[Ramza00]

I am thinking about the Otherworldly Audience sphere from the SoP Conjuration sphere. (and the 7 associated Conjuration Drawbacks)

With Otherworldly Audience you can have your Conjuration Allies be spirits inside your head, see through your senses, and then pass Int and Wis skills to you as long as those skills do not require motor movement.

Well this pairs real well with Spheres of Guile, especially the Study Spherefor the 6+4 Knowledge Skills, the Investigation Spherefor Sense Motive, the Communication spherefor Linguistics, and Sphere of Might’s Scout Spherefor Perception with the Great Senses talent, requires 2 Scout Spheres but like 4 Martial Traditions grant this.

In sum you can have a spirit know it all while your character plays the PoV protagonist who knows nothing. Quite easy to get 1 or more Spirits up to give you the 10 Knowledge Skills, a Perception, and Sense Motive roller. It even is good enough (not great / grand enough) to make you consider wanting to go Wis based for SoP for higher Will saves, or Cha based for better social skills since your hidden Conjuration Companion(s) provides the knowledge behind the scenes.

Here are the Int and Wis skills for people who do not immediately recall without looking it up.

10 knowledge (6 main and 4 background)
Many Linguistics
1 Spellcraft
1 Appraise
Many Craft

1 Perception
1 Sense Motive
1 Heal
1 Survival
Many Profession

Note Craft and Profession does not really work for it requires hands, likewise arguably half of Heal and Survival does not work.

Note Conjuration Companions are roughly 3/4 your HD and will not have magic items. Yet at CL 08 a 6 HD+3 class+3 sage companion+INT 16 equals a 15+1d20 to identifying monsters at level 8, and a 12+1d20 for basic knowledge. And since you can easily have multiple companions that 1d20 can easily become 2d20 or 3d20 and eventually 5d20 at HD11 and above with minimal investment on the main PC’s part (1 conjuration talent and you get to decide if you want to spend 1 or 2 feats for Homogenous Companion 1 and perhaps Homogenous Companion 2. If you take Homogenous Companion 1 you can have 3 hidden companions with a single talent investment+plus a feat w/ skillful companion and sage companion, with Homogenous Companion 2 you can have 5 hidden companions with a single talent and two feats.)

[A.J.Gibson]

a 32 page soft cover style book of 3.5 skill tricks would have been a better, more useful product. And I would probably not have felt like I wasted money on it.

This is *exactly* what I was thinking. Ever since DDS succeeded with SoP, it's been trying to reuse the sphere model, blindly copying itself when simpler solutions exist. 3.5 skill tricks were a good design (even if the tricks were not always useful) that could have been seemlessly been added to any PF game, but instead they added this entire subsystem.

[Thirdtwin]

This is *exactly* what I was thinking. Ever since DDS succeeded with SoP, it's been trying to reuse the sphere model, blindly copying itself when simpler solutions exist. 3.5 skill tricks were a good design (even if the tricks were not always useful) that could have been seemlessly been added to any PF game, but instead they added this entire subsystem.

I mean, I don't know why you'd go looking in a Drop Dead Studios product with the title format Spheres of _____ without expecting a whole new subsystem, they've been pretty consistent about their Spheres products entailing new systems. I'd have expected "skill tricks, again, but better" from Dreamscarred Press (RIP) but DDS have been pretty clear about this line of products being system expansions rather than retreaded 3.5e material. It kinda seems like you're getting mad at a schnauzer for not saying meow.

[vasilidor]

I view it as more an expansion on a subsystem rather than a new subsystem.
I think it is great overall.
I did not care for some of the archetypes. Kind of wish the fighter archetype was more compatible with other ones they made for instance, but that is a nitpick.

[Ramza00]

Nonmagical free action movement for an exceptional talent! (aka requires DMs permission)

Body Control‘s Subjective Gravity talent, gives you a DC16 Wis check you can make once a round as a free action you choose how gravity works under the subjective gravity rules. This DC16 Wis Check allows you to choose the ground to be anywhere in a 360 direction including diagonals. This in turn allows free movement that ends as soon as you are done with your move and standard actions you instantly start falling with style. Perfect free movement to use with archer, full attack and then let gravity get you away from your enemies. You can only do this gravity directional change once a round. Furthermoee have to be in a meditation prior, meditation is a swift action to start, under the larger category known as an approach. Approaches lasts till unconscious or you use a swift action to end an approach, or a swift action to do a different approach.) Put another ways approaches are like stances.





Subjective Gravity (control) (Su)

Prerequisites: Associated skill 5 ranks or Knowledge (planes) 5 ranks, Body Control sphere.

While meditating, you can control your effective direction of gravity, as if you were on a plane with subjective directional gravity. You also negate any height bonuses opponents above you would receive if you are standing on a horizontal surface. You can calculate the distance of your high jumps as if they were long jumps oriented in any direction. (As mentioned in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game GameMastery Guide, you can move normally along a solid surface by imagining “down” below your feet.

If suspended in midair, you fall in a straight line 150 feet in the first round and 300 feet in each succeeding round. To stop, you must change the designated “down” direction to counteract your fall, reducing your falling speed by one step each round.)

You can choose this talent a second time if you possess at least 10 ranks in the associated skill or Fly. When you do, you gain a supernatural fly speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability while meditating.




Subjective Directional Gravity

The strength of gravity on a plane with this trait is the same as on the Material Plane, but each individual chooses the direction of gravity’s pull. Such a plane has no gravity for unattended objects and nonsentient creatures. This sort of environment can be very disorienting to the newcomer, but it is common on “weightless” planes.

Characters on a plane with subjective directional gravity can move normally along a solid surface by imagining “down” near their feet. If suspended in midair, a character “flies” by merely choosing a “down” direction and “falling” that way. Under such a procedure, an individual “falls” 150 feet in the first round and 300 feet in each succeeding round. Movement is straight-line only. In order to stop, one has to slow one’s movement by changing the designated “down” direction (again, moving 150 feet in the new direction in the first round and 300 feet per round thereafter).

It takes a DC 16 Wisdom check to set a new direction of gravity as a free action; this check can be made once per round. Any character who fails this Wisdom check in successive rounds receives a +6 bonus on subsequent checks until he or she succeeds.

Meditate [approach] (Ex)

Adopting this approach is a swift action. While you maintain this approach, you gain some conscious control over your physiological processes and your emotional responses determined by the (control) talent you choose when you adopt the approach. You can endure certain effects listed in the talent when you fail an ability check, skill check, or saving throw against an effect permitted by your current (control) talent. To endure an effect, you attempt an associated skill check as a swift or immediate action. The DC and effect depend on whether it was an ability check, saving throw, or skill check.

Ability Check (twice the DC): If your skill check succeeds, you get a +2 insight bonus on the ability check, which can cause you to succeed instead of fail.
Saving Throw (DC 150% the save DC): If your skill check succeeds, you get a +3 insight bonus on the saving throw, which can cause it to succeed instead of fail.
Skill Check (DC 5 + the skill check DC): If your associated skill check succeeds, the failed skill check becomes a success. When you meditate, you may add up to two (control) talents to the approach, but you cannot have more than one unless at least one of those talents has the [utility] tag.

Approach

An approach represents the way you are thinking about your situation, granting you a passive effect. An approach can usually be activated (“adopted”) as a swift action, although individual talents might offer approaches activated in other ways. You can only benefit from a single approach at a time, but may switch to any approaches you know by adopting the new one; once the new one is adopted, you lose the benefits of any previous approach. You can also abandon an approach as a swift action without adopting a new one. Your current approach ends if you fall unconscious or die.

Reflexive Meditation

You can meditate as an immediate action to preempt the action of another creature. If you do so, you can endure an effect as part of the action to meditate and the meditation only lasts until the end of your next turn (it does not last long enough to use a (clarity) talent).



Of course you can halt that movement with a DC15 fly check using the hover rules with the fly skill. Gravity is always in the down direction (or up or diagonal or left or right) but a DC15 fly check means you are not moving down where gravity is. And for a DC16 Wis Check you change where gravity is once per round, moving the default to something useful combat wise. Likewise one can also take the reflexive meditation talent to now make your meditation an immediate action, pre-empting your enemy and moving 150 feet in any direction making it harder for them to melee you as an immediate+free action. Now this reflexive meditation does not really stop enemies who use the target rules under spells or archers but it can make you hard to hit with melee.

Imagine you are a rogue with a basic flight and this Body Control talent and reflex meditation. You were sitting down in a chair with a pub, enjoying a nice beer, and combat starts and you roll for initiative for there are unruly people who hate rogues. So you stand up out of your chair and fly a little up. Subjective Gravity was already active for it is an approach talent, but you do the DC16 Wis Check and throw yourself across the room out of reach, like a teleport but not a teleport. Now since you are indoors in the Pub one would take falling damage if one collides with a wall or ceiling within 150 feet, but hey a DC 10 Flying check fixes that. And why not make your fall / throw why not choose the ceiling as your landing spit for it can be out of reach of your enemies and now you can pelt them with arrows until they figure how they are going to get to you.

edit: I just realized this is a fabulous way to flavor spider-man’s web slinging or attack on titans three dimensional maneuver gear

====

Level 5 character designed to be combined with other things.

Aasimar Race for there is an option to give up spell like ability for 20 feet flight poor (there are also better flyer races for PC in pathfinder with no LA)

Good Natured makes you swap your skilled +2 racial skills for Communication sphere.

Titanspawn Aasimar makes you have +2 str and +2 int.

All together you get a very intimidating otherworldly creature who can share language with you without having a language with you as long as you are in an Unfriendly or Better relationship (not Hostile). And then if you do choose the path of conflict this warrior or spell caster plays with their own gravity surprising you with a readied grapple that also moves both of you 150 feet per round away from your allies.


Good-Natured: These aasimar are more vocal with their kind acts, and tend to be very talkative and upfront. These aasimar gain the Communication sphere as a bonus skill talent at 1st level. This replaces skilled.

[SangoProduction]

I'll be honest. I'm not going to be bashing them, because an expansion on the skills deal was kinda entirely what I was looking for. And that's sorta what they delivered. My "survivalist" SoM character was little more than "Well, I have ranks in Survival, and Craft (Traps). Oh and stealth. But really I just run in and bully things to the ground." Compared to the SoP mages, martials with SoM really felt rather soulless, with much less (mechanical) expression.

I will also probably be providing the universal "10 utility talents by level 20" idea to non SoG classes, and classifying the less useful talents as [utility].

The expanded conditions thing is almost entirely unneeded. Except that they attached Outwit to them. But that can be reworked.
It also includes expansions on the mechanics of Diplomacy, which is undoubtedly useful for those who prefer to rollplay in this roleplaying game. You know, so that there's mechanical bite to your rolling.

I will concur that a smaller, more focused expansion of skill rules would have been more efficient and effective. (Plus I think how it broke the symmetry of the wiki is a bit ugly, and it gets harder to convince new GMs to play with it as more and more subsystems are added.) But as mentioned, that's kinda Spheres's thing.

Are the talents super helpful? Perhaps not. Will I be expanding the Guile classes' Any talents to include SoM (and vice versa)? Yes.
I also love the [Plan] type talents, which just reeks of Heist movie nonsense.

[thethird]

Nonmagical free action movement for an exceptional talent! (aka requires DMs permission)

Body Control‘s Subjective Gravity talent,

Yes that's one of the ones I would go out of my way to grab. Even use feats for it if necessary. That's actually cool, unique, and powerful.

Also I like the trade talents from the vocation sphere, and how they add little things on top of class skills. Perhaps for ease I would have defined the "operative modifier" and gone with that instead of hardcoding the attribute change for the skill. Because hey I liked the whole caster / practitioner modifier from spheres of power and spheres of guile.

The more I look at this the more I find little situational dips that can enrich a character. Nothing too exciting to build a full character around it. But customized trade traditions and a couple of feats (at most) could probably give enough talents to enrich many characters.

[Ramza00]

Yes that's one of the ones I would go out of my way to grab. Even use feats for it if necessary. That's actually cool, unique, and powerful.
I think it is unnecessary for it is easy to hit a DC15 hover check (especially with a +5 competence item which should cost 2.5k, or the PFS Griffon Mane for 200 gp to a light armor for +2)

But it is amazing what Hover adds to this free movement allowing you to stop the movement anytime. Enough to take the monster feat hover, or the athletics sphere Powerful Wings. Enough to spend precious feat slots to grab subjective gravity and even to grab Hover though I think it is easy eventually to hit the DC15 fly check (perhaps not at level 5, but it will soon be easy enough)

Also I like the trade talents from the vocation sphere, and how they add little things on top of class skills. Perhaps for ease I would have defined the "operative modifier" and gone with that instead of hardcoding the attribute change for the skill. Because hey I liked the whole caster / practitioner modifier from spheres of power and spheres of guile.
Agreed 👍

The more I look at this the more I find little situational dips that can enrich a character. Nothing too exciting to build a full character around it. But customized trade traditions and a couple of feats (at most) could probably give enough talents to enrich many characters.
That is the way I am viewing it, and thus I am enjoying it.
If one was too optimistic and expecting the best of the best book (optimun) well it is not that. But it is much better than a complete book 1 or 2 (not all of them) from the 3.5 days.

[thethird]

I think it is unnecessary for it is easy to hit a DC15 hover check (especially with a +5 competence item which should cost 2.5k, or the PFS Griffon Mane for 200 gp to a light armor for +2)

I meant I would actually use a feat to take extra skill talent to grab it. If I am doing that I probably have a fly speed already, I have trouble remembering if it's 3.5 or it's also in Pathfinder, but with a fly speed can you fly in the direction of grabity for double speed?


That is the way I am viewing it, and thus I am enjoying it.
If one was too optimistic and expecting the best of the best book (optimun) well it is not that. But it is much better than a complete book 1 or 2 (not all of them) from the 3.5 days.

I think the problem with Spheres is that for the most part the best idea was in the first product. Spheres of Power is a great idea. It replaces vancian casting with spheres. Neat.

Key word being replaces. Spheres of might doesn't replace anything, feeling more dip-y. Like extra tricks to grab as a martial. I think my expectation was that spheres of guile would act more like spheres of power (being replacements) than spheres of might (being additions).

It's okay as it is, but to me it feels more like interesting dips around the edges of a character. Traditions and vocation sphere, are a good idea, and with customized traditions you can probably get some flavorful (and useful, if niche) abilities from the spheres proper.

[Rynjin]

The more I look at this the more I find little situational dips that can enrich a character. Nothing too exciting to build a full character around it. But customized trade traditions and a couple of feats (at most) could probably give enough talents to enrich many characters.

Yeah, this is my issue with it in a nutshell. Any Guile character is going to feel exceptionally weak. What's worse, they're going to feel weak even within their primary niche (being the skillmonkey) compared to SoM or especially SoP characters who can be 80% as good at skills but 2-3 times as good at everything else.

[Ramza00]

I meant I would actually use a feat to take extra skill talent to grab it. If I am doing that I probably have a fly speed already, I have trouble remembering if it's 3.5 or it's also in Pathfinder, but with a fly speed can you fly in the direction of gravity for double speed?

That is 3.5 rule

3.5 https://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm
PF: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/movement/

Do not actually read those links now, just glance over them and notice the movement in 3 directions from 3.5 was replaced with a small section on flight and then linking to a different section with the fly 3.5 skill.

The short of it all 5 movement maneuverability in 3.5 could fly down twice as fast, but flying up you had different ratios of movement depending on maneuverability. Pathfinder streamlined it via flight checks which made everything a different type of gradient since it is now a skill check. A skill check that is even easier with the Navigation sphere for you at level 5 can make tornado winds now be 2 levels lower with 7 ranks in Fly with the Acclamation Flight Package which is part of the base fly. Thus the same level a wizard gets imbue with flight allowing a magic carpet ride for 7 hours, an ally (it does not even need to be the wizard) can acclimate themselves plus a mental ability modifier number of alliesOperative Ability Modifier and vehicles 1 weather level plus 1 more weather level every 7 ranks for 24 hours.

Yes a weather witchgoddess / druid may want to take navigation base sphere, to allow them to fly with lesser penalties, while also conjuring mighty winds with vanican or the weather sphere, while the enemies feel the full magical peril. At the same time the navigation user blessed the wizard and the other allies to watch in comfortable terror the wrath of the weather witch on their magic carpet.

Laugh at the weather witch who also flies / falls 150 feet in any direction with style :smallamused:


I think the problem with Spheres is that for the most part the best idea was in the first product. Spheres of Power is a great idea. It replaces vancian casting with spheres. Neat.

Key word being replaces. Spheres of might doesn't replace anything, feeling more dip-y. Like extra tricks to grab as a martial. I think my expectation was that spheres of guile would act more like spheres of power (being replacements) than spheres of might (being additions).

It's okay as it is, but to me it feels more like interesting dips around the edges of a character. Traditions and vocation sphere, are a good idea, and with customized traditions you can probably get some flavorful (and useful, if niche) abilities from the spheres proper.

Yeah I think some people crave Legends of the Spheres will will have more archetypes and substitution options, and champions of the spheres content. But that is a different book that is coming out later to blend these 3 more thoroughly

[Local_Jerk]

The way DDS handles their content has been pretty weird ever since SoM came about. Why exactly are they so opposed to their various systems being mixed, unless it's in a separate sourcebook? Like, why would they still design Martial Archetypes thhat didn't use SoM after SoM came out? In SoP and SoM did they really think ppl would only want to use one of their systems? SoG is perhaps more divisive, but even then, why didn't they make options that allowed previous classes to integrate it, if they chose to? Seriously, this is more of a complete redesign of PF's skill system than anything else, it would work best already integrated with the other subsystems, not as its own separate thing, just like how skill tricks could be taken by anyone in 3.5

[SangoProduction]

The way DDS handles their content has been pretty weird ever since SoM came about. Why exactly are they so opposed to their various systems being mixed, unless it's in a separate sourcebook? Like, why would they still design Martial Archetypes thhat didn't use SoM after SoM came out? In SoP and SoM did they really think ppl would only want to use one of their systems? SoG is perhaps more divisive, but even then, why didn't they make options that allowed previous classes to integrate it, if they chose to? Seriously, this is more of a complete redesign of PF's skill system than anything else, it would work best already integrated with the other subsystems, not as its own separate thing, just like how skill tricks could be taken by anyone in 3.5

Have to say, I agree here. Also the reason why I am combining combat and skill spheres into the same category.

There are plenty of "Champion" archetypes, that basically just say "When you would gain a magic/combat talent, you gain your choice of either a magic or combat talent," and that's the whole thing, letting them be used with any other archetype.
In addition to the "variant progressions" that typically give you the "Low" progression for classes that don't normally have that Sphere's progression to them. The cost to do so tends to be remarkably low as well, though I've personally rarely used them.

[Ramza00]

The way DDS handles their content has been pretty weird ever since SoM came about. Why exactly are they so opposed to their various systems being mixed, unless it's in a separate sourcebook? Like, why would they still design Martial Archetypes thhat didn't use SoM after SoM came out? In SoP and SoM did they really think ppl would only want to use one of their systems? SoG is perhaps more divisive, but even then, why didn't they make options that allowed previous classes to integrate it, if they chose to? Seriously, this is more of a complete redesign of PF's skill system than anything else, it would work best already integrated with the other subsystems, not as its own separate thing, just like how skill tricks could be taken by anyone in 3.5

I do not know first hand, but my tea leaves reading is it is


a company that has user submitted content (aka multiple authors at DDS)
not all the authors like the other authors content, or they like the idea but would modify it somewhat
one way to handle disagreement is playtesting which invites more eyes outside DDS, and helps some people inside DDS better articulate feelings with numbers and game experience, talking more facts less values and emotional vibes. Yet playtesting slows everything down making a multiple year development to get new books out, and whether the Ultimate book which is a form of master errata
in sum I am describing committee work, and whether there is not one unified mind (which always occurs in groups, and if a person is not seeing their own mind is also divided / multi-valence than the material is either too weak or too strong and the creator can not see the unintended consequences the latency of the material and not just the intended manifest consequences.)
one way to deal with this is “compartmentalization” with committee work, it makes it easier to smooth out even if spheres feels less organic in a biological sense and more organic in a mechanical “organized” sense. (What I am trying to communicate with organs works better in different languages not English.)


Note this is much like DM work, where the best DMs have you on rails, you are being railroaded like a puppet, but with the best DMs you do not see the strings and you feel enough give to barely feel the strings. We are complaining (and rejoicing) for we feel the strings.

———

Edit: thethird you were asking can we improve subjective gravity even further?

There is a cheap pathfinder item good for 1 handed weapon users like spellcasters.


"Featherlight Compass
Source Planar Adventures pg. 53
Aura faint divination; CL 3rd
Slot none; Price 1,500 gp; Weight —
Description
This compass’s components are so fine that it is practically weightless. When held in the hand in an area of subjective directional gravity, the bearer automatically succeeds at Wisdom checks to change direction and can increase or decrease his falling speed by 30 feet during the first round after he changes his subjective gravitational direction.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, know direction; Cost 750 gp"


30 feet extra movement and no more wis checks.

[Ramza00]

Talking out loud thinking, looking at the Legends of the Spheres playtest (the stretch goal of SoG that is more champions stuff, it is still happening)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lPffQPtwWg5-depzEwu9fg1u1JYxNR__aJpnkgilAbI/edit#

And Battle-Born prodigies got a buff with more openers and links, just like the normal prodigy got a buff.

You can now start an opener as an immediate action, for example theorize from Study. Let your allies add links, and then do a finisher, followed by a new opener immediately after.

I can totally imagine a “pal” Battle-Born prodigy who donates their own standard action to allies via Battlefield Tactics (Squadron) feat, not caring since they do move attack action finishers (5 links doombringer) taking their own SoM attack action as a move action, and using Subjective Gravity to move around the battlefield as a free action so you are always in range of your allies to give bonuses. Throw on an oath to get magical gleaming (2 SP) and do a dumpster diving into Time and War for some Retry, Shift Time, Retroactive Preparations paid for by drawbacks, and 2 War Momentum Talents.

And since this is so talent minimalist it allows you to do lots of out of combat stuff with spheres of guile. Of course some people may find such a class to be boring, since you are a part enabler who does one thing every time, yet other people enjoy such a character.

[Thealtruistorc]

I do not know first hand, but my tea leaves reading is it is


a company that has user submitted content (aka multiple authors at DDS)
not all the authors like the other authors content, or they like the idea but would modify it somewhat
one way to handle disagreement is playtesting which invites more eyes outside DDS, and helps some people inside DDS better articulate feelings with numbers and game experience, talking more facts less values and emotional vibes. Yet playtesting slows everything down making a multiple year development to get new books out, and whether the Ultimate book which is a form of master errata
in sum I am describing committee work, and whether there is not one unified mind (which always occurs in groups, and if a person is not seeing their own mind is also divided / multi-valence than the material is either too weak or too strong and the creator can not see the unintended consequences the latency of the material and not just the intended manifest consequences.)
one way to deal with this is “compartmentalization” with committee work, it makes it easier to smooth out even if spheres feels less organic in a biological sense and more organic in a mechanical “organized” sense. (What I am trying to communicate with organs works better in different languages not English.)



This warrants some clarification.

When Spheres of Might was initially conceived, there was uncertainty over whether Spheres of Power players would want to commit to Spheres of Might or not. DDS didn't want to hedge its bets too much, so it designed Spheres of Might with the understanding that it could be used independently from Spheres of Power and vice versa. From what I understand, there are still a number of tables that prefer to only use one of the two systems rather than both, and there were instructions from the top to keep any interactions between the systems to a separate book (Champions of the Spheres).

A similar top-down order was set down with Spheres of Guile, as there were predictions that certain players would integrate aspects of Spheres of Guile without any prior knowledge of SoP or SoM. The intent behind this separation was to make onboarding easier, so that players and DMs could learn the systems of Power, Might, and Guile in any combination they wanted and at their own pace.

Now, have complications emerged in the past over multiple authors independently covering the same design space or arguing over how things should be handled? Yes. There are still issues such as calculating monster MSB/MSD in relation to CR that different creators have handled in different ways. That said, Spheres of Guile involved a lot of internal communication, far more than most of the other solo projects that DDS has released in the past.

[Ramza00]

Edit: Friday May 19th, the joys of a moving target. Some of my talents will have to be redone due to the errata changing some minor things. Thus I will be making different choices even if the errata spheres are still acceptable. *shrug* still about 70%

So this post is not done I am only about 70% done, but it is done for today :smalltongue: will edit with more info later.

A 4 level build designed to be the generalist who helps your party do everything, a friend for your friendsallies in need. Conscript 1, Prodigy 3. Prodigy is using the battle-born SoM and exploitant LoS champion playtest (SoG+SoM+SoP)

You are a "prodigy" that manipulates time to give your allies actions, and also gains sequence "tempo" (up to 5 links in the sequence) via your allies and your own actions . Allies must be within 30 feet to add to your sequence "tempo" via Battle-Born.

How do you use that sequence "tempo"
to boost your allies CL up to +2 as a free action, also boost your allies attack and damage by +2
or to finish your sequence "tempo" to shoot arrows at 5 things either allies to heal, enemies to hurt and debuff, or empty spaces to battlefield control. Alternatively you can finish that sequence "tempo" to allow your allies to have an extra standard action (at the expense of your move action and the allies immediate action.)

So I am going to edit this later on, with better formatting but since this is designed to be a skeleton framework but also teach people more SoM / SoG / SoP and Oaths I am going to repeat myself with EXCESS. By which I mean excess extra text for something that is automatic and unnecessary if you are already familiar in the systems.

[b]Oath
(forbidden knowledge and the melancholic depression knowing too much brings a slight sluggishness of the body yet an expanded mind and limited time magic and momentum magic)
Forbidden Knowledge gain 2 Oath Points as a “benefit” and take a lesser Madness as a “cost”
Melancholia, Lesser Madness. –2 penalty on initiative checks, and morale bonuses are halved (minimum +0)
1 Oath Point, Magical Gleaning (Su). gain Casting with 2 Talents, gain caster level equal to 1/2 your HD. Can take drawbacks to gain more spell points.
1 Oath Point, Skillful (Ex). All Skills are Class Skills
Human
studious racial trait, gain a study talent and lose Human’s skilled racial trait (+1 skill point per HD)
Tradition, Trade
(the two spheres are required, the vocations are up to you, this is a skeleton build after all. Such as choosing things for flavor, x to y stats, and so on. This is because Skillful makes all skills as class skills and gets the +3.)
artifice, gear package
faction, supply package
Vocation 1
Vocation 2
Vocation 3
Vocation 4
Vocation 5
Tradition, Martial
(canny hunter, you are a bowman who can do ranged attacks with far shot as an associated feat)
huntsman training
sniper, base
scout, base
scout, great senses
Tradition, Casting
time plus drawbacks
war! plus drawbacks
feat squadron commander feat from war drawback
Conscript
1 SoM talent you specialize in
2 SoM talents
feat battlefield tactics

Prodigy
3 SoG+SoM talents
1 Utility talents
5 links max sequence which opens up lots of things like barrage-Flurry, Arcane Apocalypse, Doombringer. Remember you can give up the action, our ally does an immediate action, and now your ally can do Arcane Apocalypse or Doombringer as part of the action.
steady skill



war! talent plus drawbacks
from where?
time talent plus drawbacks
from where?


momentum, damaging
tradition, casting
retry
tradition, casting


momentum, resilient
drawback benefit 2
shift time
drawback benefit 2


squadron commander feat
drawback benefit 3
retroactive participation
drawback benefit 3


commando
drawback cost 1
personal time
drawback cost 1


small unit strategist
drawback cost 2
altered time slow
drawback cost 2


squadron elite
drawback cost 3
altered time haste
drawback cost 3


study talent
from where?
faction talent
from where?


anticipate hostility
human studious racial trait
supply package
tradition, trade


artifice talent
from where?
performance talent
from where?


gear package
tradition, trade
charm, lively
feat, hd 01


chemical armaments
prodigy 1, SoG or SoM any
lament, dispiriting
prodigy 2, utility


greater trinkets
prodigy 2, moldable talent
lyrical mastery
prodigy 2, SoG or SoM any


_
_
flowing theatrics
prodigy 3, SoG or SoM any


_
_
anthem, assuring
drawback benefit 1


_
_
emotional performance
drawback cost 1


sniper talent
from where?
barrage talent
from where?


base
tradition, martial
base
conscript 1


scout talent
from where?
alchemy talent
from where?


base
tradition, martial
base, salve
conscript 1, alchemy specialization


great senses
tradition, martial
instant foam
conscript 1


_
_
any alchemy formulae
drawback benefit 1


_
_
any alchemy formulae
drawback benefit 2


_
_
expensive chemicals
drawback cost 1


_
_
mana chemistry
drawback cost 2


associated feat
from where?
associated feat
from where?


shot, far
huntsman training
shot, precise
sniper, base


shot, point-blank
barrage, base
shot, rapid
barrage, base


Things you have that are Open and I have not selected since this is a Skeleton build
(I am letting the 3 feats be up to you, since this is a skeleton build, in my various groups we play with flaws so this would be 5 feats total)
feat Human, open
feat HD 01, performance base sphere
feat HD 03, open
one theorize Talent which you get for free via human. You will always want to start combat with a swift action theorize as an opener for the prodigy’s sequence "tempo" sequence. But what you do with the theorize with talents and notions really does not matter. It is merely a swift action to start and open the sequence and to add 1 link.
I think it is common sense to always have two drawbacks for alchemy with expensive chemicals and mana chemistry for two more alchemy talents. But which alchemy talents you choose is up to you, there are many great choices.
Exploitants Insights from Prodigy-Exploitant is a class ability which you choose one the a) Moldable Talents or the b) Spontaneous Technique option. It does not matter which you pick whether you want 8 hour versatility with a SoM+SoG talent, or a more restricted version of Prodigy's Adaptation ability. Regardless it is more flexibility for you to do your thing.Originally I was going to leave this open, but I am now using it to get Greater Trinket by level 4. At later levels retrain this to buy Greater Trinket with a fixed Talent and allow the Moldable Talent to change every 8 hours.
3 traits (2 of them you get automatically and 1 drawback)
+2 cl war from gift for magic (magic)
+2 rounds for moral effects from community minded (regional)
open , while this is open I do like grabbing "clever wordplay (social)" to make a Cha skill into an Int Skill. Such as grabbing Disguise since none of the vocations make Disguise an X to Y trait.

Sample Starting Stats is (25 point buy)

STR
DEX
CON
INT
WIS
CHA


+0 points
+5 points
+5 points
10 points
+0 points
-2 points

10
14
14
18
10
08

__
__
__
+2 race
__
__

__
__
__
+1 hd
__
__

__
__
__
+1 item
__
__

10
14
14
22
10
08
10 spell points via 5 drawbacks (you choose the drawbacks)
4 spell points from 4 HD (drawbacks)
6 spell points from 22 INT

Casting

squadron commander (3 allies and yourself are in your squadron, 4 allies at 5 ranks of diplomacy or 5 CL)
0 spell points, sacrifice an action, any ally within your squadron gains the equivalent action (AoO, Swift, Move, Standard, or Full-Round). Can be used multiple times per round with how many actions sacrificed but your ally only gets 1 action type per round.
SoP abilities
2 spell points, immediate action, retry your turn.
1 spell point_, shift time and borrow a future action from next turn. Also costs a swift action if you borrow an move action or standard action, only takes a free action if you borrow a swift action.
1 spell point_, retroactive preparation as a standarad action gain a 200 gp or less item that ou could have accessed in the last two weeks. The cost of the item comes from your wealth.
1 spell point_, momentum pool create a momentum pool that last for 4 hours, the number of momentum points is +4+6=10 points.
allies must be within 30 feet in order to use momentum
2 momentum points, momentum, damaging as a free action add +6 damage to a weapon attack, natural weapon attack, or unarmed strike
1 momentum points, momentum, resilient as a free action reduce 6 damage

AWESOME FINISHERS

barrage-Flurry (finish): As a standard action the prodigy may make one ranged attack per link in her sequence, but no one creature may be targeted by a number of attacks greater than half the length of the sequence. These attacks are made at the prodigy’s full base attack bonus.
generic-Arcane Apocalypse: As a 5 link finisher, the prodigy may cast a sphere effect as a move action. Each sphere effect cast in this way must have a normal casting time of no more than 1 standard action.
generic-Doombringer 1: As a 5 links finisher, the prodigy may make an attack action in place of a move action. Each attack action must have an activation time of no more than a standard action.

Other Finishers

generic-Doombringer 2: As a 3 link finisher, the prodigy may make a single attack as a swift action. Each attack action must have an activation time of no more than a standard action.
generic-Focus: As a 3 link finisher, the prodigy may regain martial focus as a free action.
generic-Prodigy’s Reflexes: As a 3 link finisher, when targeted by an attack or forced to make a Reflex save, the prodigy may spend an immediate action to make an Acrobatics check and use the result in place of her AC or Reflex save. She must use the skill check result even if it is lower than her AC. If the sequence is at least 5 links, she may instead activate this ability as a free action usable even when it is not her turn.
generic-Resilience: If the prodigy has a sequence of at least 5 links, when failing a saving throw, she may end the sequence as an immediate action to reroll the save.
generic-Certain Strike: As a 3 link finisher, the prodigy may spend a swift action to resolve her next attack roll before the start of her next turn as a touch attack.
generic-Adroit Momentum: A prodigy may end her sequence as part of making a skill check to gain a competence bonus equal to the number of links in the sequence on that skill check.
generic-Executioner: As a 5 link finisher, the prodigy may spend a move action to automatically threaten a critical on the next attack roll before the end of her turn. If this attack misses, the ability is wasted. This effect may not be combined with any ability or effect that automatically confirms critical threats.
generic-Ironhide: The prodigy may end her sequence as a immediate action to gain temporary hit points equal to her level that last for a number of rounds equal to the number of links in her sequence. This finisher may be used after the result of an attack is revealed and may keep the prodigy from dying.
generic-Penetrating Magic: The prodigy may end her sequence as part of casting a sphere effect to gain a bonus equal to the length of her sequence on any MSB checks made to overcome spell resistance made as part of that effect.


Will use invigorating words at level 05?

[Ramza00]

still not done finishing explaining / changing the build above.

but I noticed something is Spheres of Guile that reminds me of a conversation me and SangoProduction had 2 years ago when Sango did a thread "there's a sphere for that with Spheres of Power.


A character using a sword cuts his opponent and inserts them into their past gaining knowledge and being their friend.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637070-quot-There-s-a-Sphere-for-that-quot&p=25217427&highlight=sword#post25217427


OH, now that's a fancy one.

Mind Sphere: Charming Strike - lets you cast Mind sphere effects on successful sword slice.
Subtlety - seamlessly places your charms into their subconscious, requiring a second save (if the first one is successful), or else they don't even know you attempted such a thing.
Amnesia + Enthrall (especially at Powerful Charm level) to make them forget any bad things about you, and regard you as a friend. Enthrall lasts at most 1 hour / CL (without advanced talents)
And finally Inception (also particularly are Powerful Charm) lets you implant memories indistinguishable from actual memories and "appear to fit the flow of continuity of their memories, but otherwise do not remove or alter previous memories."

So... without some double casting or otherwise combo-enabling tricks (like maybe a trap stuck onto your sword that triggers on failing Enthrall), it's going to take 3 stabs to get them to have all that. With Amnesia at the end, of course. So that they forget their stabbings. Life sphere would also be handy...for healing those stab wounds. Don't forget to Incept that you came to drive off bandits, and whisked your target into your arms and make them feel better.

You absolute psychopath.

Well now there is 1) Rattling Memory [plan] from Spheres of Guile and 2) Time-Crossed Plots [Champion feat] from Legends of the Spheres playtest.

1) Rattling Memory allows one to do all these Social Skills like Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff etc as a past thing but it does not "activate" till you say the magic word later as a move action, which is revealing the plan. For example one can say the key word where an enemy becomes your friend, or you activate a long plot. All of this "supposedly" happened in the past but the joy of plan talents is one does not need to reveal the sequence till now, it is magnificent bastarding in other words.
2) Time-Cross Plots is a Champions Feat from Legend of the Spheres (still in playtest) well it allows you to use time or divination sphere magic to do the thing even if that thing is "logically impossible" but somehow it magically gets done. For example a person you have never met before is a long lost friend that you met years ago but spend a key few hours at a tavern where they confessed their feelings for X for they were down in their luck and needed someone to talk to. You are warping reality with skills!

Throw in the Fabricate Memory (Bluster, Utility quip) plus taking Rattling Memory a second time and one can even add memories to a person. All for a move action, 1 sp, and taking a feat and some talents. Lie, Lie, Lie and it appears as true!!!

----

Also Human with Study Sphere (give up that racial skill point bonus) and the time sphere can do Time-Cross Plot at level 1 with the Human Racial Feat.

This is because the base Study Sphere gives you Prescient Study [plan] as part of the base talent. Thus you have 1 extra plan talent and for 1 SP you take 10 on any knowledge check for supposedly you did the research long ago at the library. And at HD 5 when you have 5 ranks in that Knowledge Skill now you can take 20 with that knowledge check if you decide to do a point of Skill Leverage.