Help Bard Virtuoso Build

[SkyfireIT]

Hi all, I have a problem with this build:

bard 8/virtuoso 2/sublime chord 2/virtuoso 8

I see this build online and theoretically it should allows you to cast as a 10th level Sublime Chord but my master disagree.
In Complete Adventurer, Virtuoso reports:
"If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells.
per day and spells known."
Before taking Virtuoso I only have the bard, so either I raise the bard or nothing, certainly not the Sublime Chord. Is there something I'm missing? So how can the build works?
Thanks a lot to everyone

[lylsyly]

Your Build is a very common one. By strict RAW your DM is probably correct. So if you can't talke him into it you can always just do Bard 10/Sublime CHord 10 if you want the spellcasting. Could be a good topic for the Simple RAW Thread.

[Inevitability]

Beginning at 2nd level, a virtuoso gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

The bolded rule gives the general case. Every time you gain a level, you pick an arcane casting class that you belonged to before taking- that specific level -, and advance its casting. This rule already gives you permission to pick any of the classes you belonged to before that specific level of virtuoso.

The underlined rule simply reminds you that if you had two or more classes, it doesn't let you advance casting of both. It is, strictly speaking, unnecessary, because the singular in the first line already implied what this line outright states. The underlined rule is certainly not giving you permission to do anything you otherwise wouldn't be able to do.

Alternatively, think of it like this: the triggering clause for the last line 'if he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso' does not apply for you, because you didn't have more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso. The text thus simply states:


Beginning at 2nd level, a virtuoso gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

Is Sublime Chord an arcane spellcasting class that you belonged to before adding your 3rd and subsequent Virtuoso levels? Yes, so you get to advance Sublime Chord casting. The last line is utterly irrelevant because its antecedent never triggers.

Some prestige classes really do work as your dungeon master claims, but not this one.

[Biggus]

Some prestige classes really do work as your dungeon master claims, but not this one.

Which ones do you mean?

[Inevitability]

Which ones do you mean?

Some classes, like Fiend-Blooded, have the subtly different wording of:


Spellcasting: At each new fiend-blooded level except for 10th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adopting the prestige class. You do not gain any other class benefit a member of that class would normally gain, except that your fiend-blooded levels also stack with any other arcane spellcaster levels for the purpose of determining familiar abilities. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a fiend-blooded, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

By strict RAW, if you're a bard and take a level in fiend-blooded, then take a level in sorcerer, your subsequent fiend-blooded levels cannot advance sorcerer, because sorcerer is not 'a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adopting the prestige class'. The key part is whether it talks about the level or the whole of the class.

Again, I'd like to stress this wording is not common, and most PrCs don't work this way.

[lylsyly]

Sounds to me like by RAW the build would have to be Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Cord 1 or 2/ then Finish off with Virtuoso. Run that by your DM.

[Chronos]

I don't think this is really a RAW issue. I think this is the DM deciding that this particular build is too unbalanced, and not allowing it on that grounds. And if so, the DM has a point, because the build described loses almost nothing compared to a pure bard, but gains much more spellcasting, and is therefore unbalanced compared to pure bard.

If the actual nature of the disagreement is on balance grounds, then no amount of RAW arguments will change the DM's mind.

[SirNibbles]

The bolded rule gives the general case. Every time you gain a level, you pick an arcane casting class that you belonged to before taking- that specific level -, and advance its casting. This rule already gives you permission to pick any of the classes you belonged to before that specific level of virtuoso.

The underlined rule simply reminds you that if you had two or more classes, it doesn't let you advance casting of both. It is, strictly speaking, unnecessary, because the singular in the first line already implied what this line outright states. The underlined rule is certainly not giving you permission to do anything you otherwise wouldn't be able to do.

Alternatively, think of it like this: the triggering clause for the last line 'if he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso' does not apply for you, because you didn't have more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso. The text thus simply states:



Is Sublime Chord an arcane spellcasting class that you belonged to before adding your 3rd and subsequent Virtuoso levels? Yes, so you get to advance Sublime Chord casting. The last line is utterly irrelevant because its antecedent never triggers.

Some prestige classes really do work as your dungeon master claims, but not this one.




Spells per Day/Spells Known: Beginning at 2nd level, a virtuoso gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.


Complete Adventurer, pages 91-92


Fully agree, the bolded section means that since you had the arcane spellcasting class before you took that specific level of Virtuoso, you can apply it to that class.