DMs: Paladin and Cleric trapped in Shadowfell, want to make a deal with a Yugoloth

[Vorenus]

DMs:

[spoilers for players, be advised]

The player characters in one of my groups have been trapped in the Shadowfell. Several Shadar-Kai told them that if they remove a group of former adventurers who have become local warlords and are causing problems for the Raven Queen, then the Raven Queen will facilitate their return to the Prime Material Plane. The local warlords are a thorn in the Raven Queen's side. She could destroy them on her own, but she is already busy with a war on two fronts against Orcus and Vecna, so it is not convenient for her to deal with the warlords at this time. (By the way, the players have learned that the local warlords, who call themselves the "Lords of Shadow" are the dark mirror versions of the players' own characters! But that is a tale for another day.) The PCs accepted the offer and are trying to take down the warlords. Unfortunately for them, two of their new enemies have teleportation magic, and the PCs are worried that they won't be able to kill them fast enough before they teleport away and come back with reinforcements or make it impossible for them to fulfill their side of the bargain with the Raven Queen. (To be clear, the PCs have not met the Raven Queen yet, only her servants, the Shadar-Kai.) So the PCs came up with the idea of hiring a Yugoloth--specifically, a Canoloth, which has the ability "Dimensional Lock" that can prevent teleportation within a 60 foot radius. They plan to hire two Yugoloths, one for each side of the battlefield.

The party consists of a Half-Orc Barbarian (Totem Warrior), a Wood Elf Ranger (Hunter), a High Elf Rogue (Arcane Trickster), an Aasimar Paladin (Oath of Devotion), and a Hill Dwarf Cleric (Life Domain).

My question for my fellow DMs: How sanguine would you be if the cleric and paladin in your group wanted to make this deal? Would you be cool with it? When I pressed them on it, both players basically said that since they were trapped in the Shadowfell, "What happens in the Shadowfell stays in the Shadowfell," and "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend."

Should they suffer some consequences? Or would you just be cool with it? Thanks for your advice.

Best,

--Vorenus

[JackPhoenix]

With clerics, it's entirely dependant on their god of choice.

Tenets of the Oath of Devotion don't directly forbid dealing with fiends. As long as the paladin aknowledges the possible consequences and acts honestly, it's not an issue. Personal views is a different matter, and if they are unfortunate enough to play in FR (or other setting that requires paladins to have a patron deity), see cleric above.

[Psyren]

So the PCs came up with the idea of hiring a Yugoloth--specifically, a Canoloth, which has the ability "Dimensional Lock" that can prevent teleportation within a 60 foot radius. They plan to hire two Yugoloths, one for each side of the battlefield.
...
My question for my fellow DMs: How sanguine would you be if the cleric and paladin in your group wanted to make this deal? Would you be cool with it? When I pressed them on it, both players basically said that since they were trapped in the Shadowfell, "What happens in the Shadowfell stays in the Shadowfell," and "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend."

I'd say any consequences for this depend entirely on how the party enlists the Canonloths' aid and what they want in return. You have tools at your disposal to figure this out; Canoloths are pretty close to animals in terms of intelligence (in fact, their very name and appearance suggests they are roughly equivalent to dog-daemons of a sort) so it's unlikely to take much to get them on board, e.g. some tasty treats should do it. I wouldn't consider that to be much of a transgression, it's not like you need to sign a Pact Certain or anything.

The bigger challenge might be keeping them from wandering off. In fact, rather than make a deal with them at all, the party may instead opt to merely bind or restrain them nearby in some way.

[J-H]

Do they have any other viable options? It sounds like they feel like they don't have any other choices or options. Surely a Shadar-Kai spellcaster could be hired, or an item crafted for a one-time effect, or something else?

[Psyren]

Do they have any other viable options? It sounds like they feel like they don't have any other choices or options. Surely a Shadar-Kai spellcaster could be hired, or an item crafted for a one-time effect, or something else?

Counterspell is the usual means of preventing teleportation, but their party composition doesn't appear to have access, and the monsters' means of teleporting away may not be a spell even if they did.

Dimensional Anchor/Lock are no longer spells in 5e, hence the Canoloths.

[Angelalex242]

I think they should avoid dealing with fiends. Call up a Celestial, by all means, but don't call up fiends.

[Mastikator]

I wouldn't do consequences for hiring fiendish mercenaries. They're just expensive.
However canoloths are lazy and won't engage in combat directly, merely provide dimensional lock.

I'd add that since canoloths are dumb and lazy they may need a yugoloth steward who also wants to be paid and will not fight unless they're paid for that as well.
A nycaloth or arcanaloth can act as a steward.

They'll want thousands of gold for their service. Or a magic item of rare quality. It should work as expected but be expensive.

[Lord Torath]

Do they have any other viable options? It sounds like they feel like they don't have any other choices or options.I'll second this. Have you as DM given them any non-possibly-falling options for escaping the Shadowfell? If not, you're asking if they should be punished for taking the only option you've given them. If that's the case, then no, no penalties.

I'm of the opinion that there should never be 'gotcha' falls. Any cleric or paladin (or whatever class) that falls should be required to make a "Yes, I know this action will cause me to fall and I want to do it anyway" statement before they fall.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

It doesn't violate the tenets of the Paladin's oath as long as they honor the terms of the deal, so they are fine.

The cleric might offend their god, depending on who it is, but likely only in a way that has narrative consequences rather than mechanical ones, as 5e doesn't really have a mechanic for clerics "falling", and they don't seem to actively be working against their gods interest in doing this, anyway, just accomplishing their goals in a way that might be distasteful.

[kazaryu]

DMs:

[spoilers for players, be advised]

The player characters in one of my groups have been trapped in the Shadowfell. Several Shadar-Kai told them that if they remove a group of former adventurers who have become local warlords and are causing problems for the Raven Queen, then the Raven Queen will facilitate their return to the Prime Material Plane. The local warlords are a thorn in the Raven Queen's side. She could destroy them on her own, but she is already busy with a war on two fronts against Orcus and Vecna, so it is not convenient for her to deal with the warlords at this time. (By the way, the players have learned that the local warlords, who call themselves the "Lords of Shadow" are the dark mirror versions of the players' own characters! But that is a tale for another day.) The PCs accepted the offer and are trying to take down the warlords. Unfortunately for them, two of their new enemies have teleportation magic, and the PCs are worried that they won't be able to kill them fast enough before they teleport away and come back with reinforcements or make it impossible for them to fulfill their side of the bargain with the Raven Queen. (To be clear, the PCs have not met the Raven Queen yet, only her servants, the Shadar-Kai.) So the PCs came up with the idea of hiring a Yugoloth--specifically, a Canoloth, which has the ability "Dimensional Lock" that can prevent teleportation within a 60 foot radius. They plan to hire two Yugoloths, one for each side of the battlefield.

The party consists of a Half-Orc Barbarian (Totem Warrior), a Wood Elf Ranger (Hunter), a High Elf Rogue (Arcane Trickster), an Aasimar Paladin (Oath of Devotion), and a Hill Dwarf Cleric (Life Domain).

My question for my fellow DMs: How sanguine would you be if the cleric and paladin in your group wanted to make this deal? Would you be cool with it? When I pressed them on it, both players basically said that since they were trapped in the Shadowfell, "What happens in the Shadowfell stays in the Shadowfell," and "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend."

Should they suffer some consequences? Or would you just be cool with it? Thanks for your advice.

Best,

--Vorenus

generally speaking this is a question that can really only be answered by you and the players. if the player characters are saying something along the lines of 'what happens in the shadowfell stays in the shadowfell' then...i mean that right there is both untrue, and also a surefire sign that they believe that what they're doing is wrong, but they're going to do it anyway. For a cleric that may not be a problem. if their god doesn't mind them hiring fiends, then it doesn't have to matter that the cleric thinks its wrong and is rationalizing. if their god doesn't care, then so be it.

the paladin on the other hand...paladins powers doesn't come from speaking the words of an oath, in fact, arguably the words of the oath don't really matter. a paladins power comes from their earnest belief in the philosophy that their oath represents. To give a simplified example: a devotion paladin is empowered by swearing to not lie. they're empowered because they earnestly believe that honesty is always the best policy, and are wilfully committing to pursuing that belief as a lifestyle. so for a paladin to be willing to waver on their beliefs like that...well that is an entirely different matter. a paladins power comes from conviction...and this displays an incredible lack of conviction. it doesn't matter whether his oath, or any real in world morals would condemn this action. What matters is what the paladin believes, and how strongly they believe it. If they're jumping to rationalizing, then they clearly believe that hiring a devil would be wrong...and are willing to do so anyway.

that being said i think a far more poignant question is would your players find it fun to have their powers interfered with and have to do some kind of redemption arc which really depends on how much your players enjoy the roleplay aspects of the game. not the acting aspects (i.e. having silly conversations in character). but the actual roleplay, consequences of my, personal, actions. How much they care about things like character development and what not. and remember, this is something different from group consequences. like, just because they may enjoy 'oh, suddenly there's this new threat that rose as a result of your party's choice to steal from that one merchant' doesn't mean they'll enjoy 'hey, now you're temporarily powerless until you figure out how to atone'. and your players reaction to the question *might* indicate that they don't really care about that, they're just using the classes for their mechanics. and there's nothing wrong with that. but you gotta be sure about this. because what you're considering doing could really harm your players fun if they're not really that into the roleplay aspect of the game.

One way to have your cake and eat it too would be to, if you believe it reasonable you can impose the consequences, but be prepared to have it fixed tout suite depending on how the players react.

other than that you'd try to go in with an idea for how much they'd like it too. You might even explicitly talk to them about it. but thats all on you, you know them better than i do. if they really don't seem like they'd enjoy that type of consequence then no harm no foul, don't impose it. or if you really feel it necessary (for your own fun...remember, that is important too) then be prepared to not have it be any kind of a drawn out process. ideally resolved over the course of a single session i think. something like that. it may even give them a taste for it, and maybe they find it fun enough that next time they're more welcoming of going a bit deeper...idk.

[Vorenus]

Thank you to everyone for your suggestions.

I'm using my 3D printer to print out a couple of canoloth models. Hopefully I'll have them painted by the next session, which is next week. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to read my initial post.

[KorvinStarmast]

I wouldn't do consequences for hiring fiendish mercenaries. They're just expensive. Yes. When they get back to the material plane, how much atonement or repentance the cleric and paladin may need to engage in needs to be arrived at based on the overall arc of the campaign. I agree with Lord Torath on the following.
I'm of the opinion that there should never be 'gotcha' falls. Any cleric or paladin (or whatever class) that falls should be required to make a "Yes, I know this action will cause me to fall and I want to do it anyway" statement before they fall.


It doesn't violate the tenets of the Paladin's oath as long as they honor the terms of the deal, so they are fine.
This too.

[Vorenus]

I failed to mention this in response to someone's previous comment: The Paladin serves the god Helm, and the cleric serves the god Moradin. The campaign is set in Forgotten Realms--other than their extraplanar jaunts, like their current sojourn in the Shadowfell.

I was able to get the Canoloth models printed on my 3D printer. Hopefully I'll get them painted before game day on Saturday.