OOTS #1279 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[enq]

Fair warning, we will have to have an OotS Trivia question about strips in which Roy doesn't use utensils.

Frankly, it should count as chaotic to eat out of the bowl.

[Peelee]

The title for this one was fantastic.

[ZhonLord]

Fair warning, we will have to have an OotS Trivia question about strips in which Roy doesn't use utensils.

Frankly, it should count as chaotic to eat out of the bowl.

It's not like the mimics can become small eating implements, like they can extra stools. Besides, would you really WANT to eat using a mimic-spoon?

[Lord Torath]

Poor Sunny! And the poor postal worker as well.

Thanks, Rich!

[X-tra]

Fantastic as always!

Though I do not post often here, I feel like I should point out the very minor typo on panel 7, in Roy's speech bubble. "[...] for us to enter then final dungeon."

"Then" should be "the" there, right?

[enq]

It's not like the mimics can become small eating implements, like they can extra stools. Besides, would you really WANT to eat using a mimic-spoon?

Come now, Serini has like a dozen bowls but no spoons? I am unable to suspend my disbelief.

Oh also, she says her memory is perfect, but that's not what she said here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1250.html). Call her out on it, Haley!

[Deuce]

At night, the ice weasels come . . .

Great reference

[Coppercloud]

I wasn't expecting the phrase "asking if your booty got trolled" would appear in my favorite comic. I'd wager no one has ever asked that exact question in the history of civilization (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html), but I don't own any quatloo to bet.
I have a feeling Serini not having checked on her Gate in years is going to be a plot point. Maybe it was somehow already destroyed, or someone already went there and... I don't know, but I can't wait to find out!
Also, I'm afraid I don't get the title. Does it refer to the mailman? Never mind, I get it now. And I feel kind of stupid, especially since the pun works in French (my first language) too.

[Psyren]

I wish I had room for "Why are you like this? Just take your damn soup" in my sig :smallbiggrin:



...Come to think of it, hasn't the downfall of most of the Scribble defenses been not keeping up with the rules times?

[Peelee]

...Come to think of it, hasn't the downfall of most of the Scribble defenses been not keeping up with the rules times?

I don't think even knowing what was happening as it happened would have helped the Draketeeth. And the Sapphire Guard had pretty good modern intel.

[Tzardok]

I don't think even knowing what was happening as it happened would have helped the Draketeeth. And the Sapphire Guard had pretty good modern intel.

Also, Familicide is propably one of these old spells that haven't been seen in ages, or something like that. Can't imagine Haerta being a newly dead soul without anything being mentioned about it.

[Doug Lampert]

Belkar, he's like this because he's been associating with you for a couple of years and it's started to wear off.

Either that, or he was a pedant prior to meeting you. But where's the fun in that?

[Coyote0715]

At night, the ice weasels come . . .

Great reference

The Far Side?

[hamishspence]

Interesting to see how it works - just stasis traps everywhere.

[Ivrytwr]

Hee-hee-hee "Post Mortem"
And ice weasels!
Thanks Giant.
A lot of info and a lot of funny.

[Precure]

Similar feel to this strip:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html

[Psyren]

I don't think even knowing what was happening as it happened would have helped the Draketeeth. And the Sapphire Guard had pretty good modern intel.

Well... they had great passable (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) intel from the outside, but where they failed was managing their internal affairs. Not just the mental state of their high-ranking members like Miko (though that certainly didn't help), but also the relations among their nobility that Shojo only barely kept in line through faking senility, despite the cosmic importance of the rulers' mission.

[Peelee]

Well... they had great passable (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) intel from the outside, but where they failed was managing their internal affairs. Not just the mental state of their high-ranking members like Miko (though that certainly didn't help), but also the relations among their nobility that Shojo only barely kept in line through faking senility, despite the cosmic importance of the rulers' mission.

And yet they imprisoned Miko once she was shown to be a danger, and also still were able to rebuff and destroy Xykon and Redcloak had she not escaped.

[Psyren]

And yet they imprisoned Miko once she was shown to be a danger, and also still were able to rebuff and destroy Xykon and Redcloak had she not escaped.

They got closer than the others for sure.

[Connington]

Five gold says that the fact that nobody has laid eyes on the Gate since sealing it up is going to be relevant before the end of the book.

[herrhauptmann]

Random thought.

Why not just pop up and throw a dispel magic at Xykon et al. As the lowest level active spell, it should disappear first; then even if they finish the gauntlet it won't matter since one or more of the marks are gone.

[Metastachydium]

1. Now I'm wondering if the unreasonable amount of glee I'm feeling right now at the expense of all those wonderful people who suggested back when that [engage malicious paraphrasis mode] "Serini is a rogue, so it would make sense for her to build defenses auto-beaten by rogues" just standard issue bad Schadenfreude, or some egregiously bad sort?
2. Were she alive and, um, not NG, Lirian would be so proud of Sunny for feeding postpeople (useless paraphernalia of this overrated thing called "civilization", I say!) to those poor weasels! And Leeky would certainly be proud.


Come now, Serini has like a dozen bowls but no spoons? I am unable to suspend my disbelief.

Maybe those are Belkar's stuff? That wouldn't surprise me for a second.


Random thought.

Why not just pop up and throw a dispel magic at Xykon et al. As the lowest level active spell, it should disappear first; then even if they finish the gauntlet it won't matter since one or more of the marks are gone.

Do we know that the effect is not instantaneous? (Because if it can just be effortlessly dispelled, the good guys… Might have a problem (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1244.html).)

[Wintermoot]

Random thought.

Why not just pop up and throw a dispel magic at Xykon et al. As the lowest level active spell, it should disappear first; then even if they finish the gauntlet it won't matter since one or more of the marks are gone.

Although the core spell used by the tattoo trap is probably arcane mark (0th level), the trap upcasts it with a 9th level slot specifically to circumvent this apparent defect.

[Peelee]

Random thought.

Why not just pop up and throw a dispel magic at Xykon et al. As the lowest level active spell, it should disappear first; then even if they finish the gauntlet it won't matter since one or more of the marks are gone.

And you think that wouldn't be suspicious at all?

[MReav]

Man, people with cold resistance must be pretty expensive if they send someone who would freeze to death before they'd hire one of them.

[Crusher]

Belkar really is always the most fun.

[Metastachydium]

Man, people with cold resistance must be pretty expensive if they send someone who would freeze to death before they'd hire one of them.

Maybe the local postal service is just… Evil, or something? (Also, they apparently don't actually maintain a presence in the general area, seeing how they sent a human.)

[Rinazina]

Greenhilt, please, don't bring V to the final dungeon, or the IFCC would screw up.
keep hir outside as a distraction, bomb the dudes with spells and waste spell slots, but please, don't bring hir to the mcguffin shelter.

[Reboot]

Man, people with cold resistance must be pretty expensive if they send someone who would freeze to death before they'd hire one of them.

Eh, they were walking along with the letter in-hand as if about to hand it to someone, not the position of someone expecting to freeze solid/to death. They probably got hit with something like a cone of cold by a passing wizard who thought they were a random encounter :p

[ZhonLord]

Greenhilt, please, don't bring V to the final dungeon, or the IFCC would screw up.
keep hir outside as a distraction, bomb the dudes with spells and waste spell slots, but please, don't bring hir to the mcguffin shelter.

That's the exact opposite of the concern at hand. The IFCC can't actually use V to actively screw anything up. All they can do is take the elf out of the action temporarily, leaving an indestructible empty shell behind.

I suppose that the 3-minute option could work if they time it so V falls on a stasis-unlocking trap as a result of their soul getting pulled away, but that's the worst harm that could occur there.

No, the much bigger threat is if V gets removed right when the good guys need wizardly assistance. Removing him from the fight before the fiends can, gives the fiends even more of what they want - an elf-less party.

[Metastachydium]

Eh, they were walking along with the letter in-hand as if about to hand it to someone, not the position of someone expecting to freeze solid/to death. They probably got hit with something like a cone of cold by a passing wizard who thought they were a random encounter :p

To be fair, it's like Belkar's 1d3 dire camels: her being a random encounter would make more rather than less sense.


No, the much bigger threat is if V gets removed right when the good guys need wizardly assistance. Removing him from the fight before the fiends can, gives the fiends even more of what they want - an elf-less party.

Dunno. Do they want a V-less party or a party that seems to have V, but nonetheless can not have V the exact moment it'd matter? A Schrödinger's Elf, if you will.

[Peelee]

Man, people with cold resistance must be pretty expensive if they send someone who would freeze to death before they'd hire one of them.
Or they don't deliver there often enough to justify the cost of hiring a specific creature like that and they can easily replace the dead one.

Greenhilt, please, don't bring V to the final dungeon, or the IFCC would screw up.
keep hir outside as a distraction, bomb the dudes with spells and waste spell slots, but please, don't bring hir to the mcguffin shelter.

The only thing the IFCC can do to V is take them out of the action. Roy taking them out of the action pre-emptively just does the IFCC's work himself, for free. That's not a good strategy.

[Metastachydium]

Or they don't deliver there often enough to justify the cost of hiring a specific creature like that and they can easily replace the dead one.


The only thing the IFCC can do to V is take them out of the action. Roy taking them out of the action pre-emptively just does the IFCC's work himself, for free. That's not a good strategy.

Dunno. Do they want a V-less party or a party that seems to have V, but nonetheless can not have V the exact moment it'd matter? A Schrödinger's Elf, if you will.

[Rinazina]

Random thought.

Why not just pop up and throw a dispel magic at Xykon et al. As the lowest level active spell, it should disappear first; then even if they finish the gauntlet it won't matter since one or more of the marks are gone.

that's a good idea, but 1) to be a fair competition someone needs to capable to win 2) when someone say "permanent tatoo" i don't believe a low level spell can undone it.


Five gold says that the fact that nobody has laid eyes on the Gate since sealing it up is going to be relevant before the end of the book.

yeah I want to bet with you. the Snarl can't be so predictable. still I want to believe crazy theory as Laurin is the 6th gate (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?511748-Laurin-Shattersmith-is-a-gate-of-the-Snarl)

[Peelee]

Dunno. Do they want a V-less party or a party that seems to have V, but nonetheless can not have V the exact moment it'd matter? A Schrödinger's Elf, if you will.

Solution: make a plan that includes V but does not rely on them. Which Roy already figured out a while ago.

Again, leaving V out just does the IFCC's job for them without them even needing to use their finite, limited ability to take V out. Its the worst possible course of action Roy could take regarding V's deal.

[Metastachydium]

that's a good idea, but 1) to be a fair competition someone needs to capable to win 2) when someone say "permanent tatoo" i don't believe a low level spell can undone it.

If it is permanent, a Dispel can undo it. But given how Serini was hit by a Dispel earlier and doesn't seem to be bothered too much by that, I'd say it's either high level or instantaneous.


Laurin is the 6th gate (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?511748-Laurin-Shattersmith-is-a-gate-of-the-Snarl)

…
That. Makes. Too. Much. Sense.


Solution: make a plan that includes V but does not rely on them. Which Roy already figured out a while ago.

Again, leaving V out just does the IFCC's job for them without them even needing to use their finite, limited ability to take V out. Its the worst possible course of action Roy could take regarding V's deal.

Yup. That's what their "never do anything important again" comment is, in part, about. But the paranoia factor and how they can't rely on the only wizard they have available is a part of the deal. For the record, I'm not saying the Order should bind and gag V. That would achieve, well, less than nothing. Nor am I saying that allowing them to enter the Final Room is inherently dangerous. It isn't. The IFCC can't use the body. It's just, the fiends' plan has a lot more wicked nuance than "we want V out of the game".

[Rinazina]

The only thing the IFCC can do to V is take them out of the action. Roy taking them out of the action pre-emptively just does the IFCC's work himself, for free. That's not a good strategy.

yeah that is what Roy knows, but we know there is an artifact (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) in play. And also an appropriate vessel! I root with my readers eye even if I talk to an unknowing PC.

The question is of course if this would be entirely unrelated to V...
... but I don't believe so. out of my 20 oots-virtual-crypto-currency, I can bet 7 of those

[Metastachydium]

yeah that is what Roy knows, but we know there is an artifact (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) in play. And also an appropriate vessel!

…which can't be V. Since Sabine is supposed to fetch it (them?).

[Doug Lampert]

Random thought.

Why not just pop up and throw a dispel magic at Xykon et al. As the lowest level active spell, it should disappear first; then even if they finish the gauntlet it won't matter since one or more of the marks are gone.

The tatoo is almost certainly an instantaneous effect and thus immune to dispel.


Although the core spell used by the tattoo trap is probably arcane mark (0th level), the trap upcasts it with a 9th level slot specifically to circumvent this apparent defect.

1) Arcane mark is immune to dispel magic, it's in the description of the arcane mark spell. Level 0 is more than good enough.

B) 3.5, upcasting does not help at all against dispel. It's a caster level check, not a spell level thing at all. Assuming that neither spell is immune, a level 3 dispel magic is exactly as good at taking down a level 9 spell as a level 0 spell from the same caster. No better, no worse.

[Joe the Rat]

Ice weasels.
:smallbiggrin:

[Provengreil]

To bring a topic over from the last thread, theories counting Serini's gate as having good long term defenses just took a big hit. Her explanation of the Final Dungeon's defenses includes the phrase "if Lirian had played ball."

So one of the people she was counting as the most likely to help refused to do so right from the design stage. Given Girard's general distrust, Soon's oath, and the fact that she was taking monsters from Dorukan's castle without letting him know she was there, I'm not really sure any of the scribblers would have actually answered the call. Most likely they'd have double checked their own defenses and just kept their ears to the ground.

Unrelated to all that, Roy's obviously thinking to jump to the FD ahead of Team Evil, slip past the stasis monsters without waking them, and basically be TE's final boss. It'd make a pretty neat bookend to His and Xykon's first meeting.

[DavidSh]

The Far Side?

A cursory Googling suggests Matt Groening, Life in Hell.

[Rinazina]

Unrelated to all that, Roy's obviously thinking to jump to the FD ahead of Team Evil, slip past the stasis monsters without waking them, and basically be TE's final boss. It'd make a pretty neat bookend to His and Xykon's first meeting.

wow this is a majestic forecast, the kind of surprise I would like to see too. With no irony i see in you a certified bardic genius (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1178.html)!

[Daibhid C]

Come now, Serini has like a dozen bowls but no spoons? I am unable to suspend my disbelief.

Oh also, she says her memory is perfect, but that's not what she said here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1250.html). Call her out on it, Haley!

"Didn't you say earlier that you couldn't remember your children's names?"
"Didn't you say earlier that you thought that was part of a massive bluff?"

[Jay R]

Man, people with cold resistance must be pretty expensive if they send someone who would freeze to death before they'd hire one of them.

"Only when it's funny."
-- Roger Rabbit


Greenhilt, please, don't bring V to the final dungeon, or the IFCC would screw up.
keep hir outside as a distraction, bomb the dudes with spells and waste spell slots, but please, don't bring hir to the mcguffin shelter.

That's keeping V out of the finale just as the IFCC would do, only longer.

The only method that would have worked to prevent the IFCC part of the plot from occurring would have been to kill Vaarsuvius. Then a wizard of the right level and equally ambiguous gender would have been found in the next tavern, and Suubstitutius wouldn't be under control of the IFCC.

[The only problem with this plan is that the author of the strip is not trying to prevent Rich's plot from occurring.]

[Provengreil]

yeah that is what Roy knows, but we know there is an artifact (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) in play. And also an appropriate vessel! I root with my readers eye even if I talk to an unknowing PC.

The question is of course if this would be entirely unrelated to V...
... but I don't believe so. out of my 20 oots-virtual-crypto-currency, I can bet 7 of those

Sabine is getting the vessel as part of mixing business and pleasure. That probably means luring someone into a trap via seduction. If the marker for "appropriate" is related to V, that shortens the list considerably, and makes it pretty likely that the artifact is to be used during one of the time outs. There are only 4 people that are at all likely in that circumstance, of which only one is at all likely to be taken in by seduction: Inkyrius.

That said, I don't really think it's going that way. It would be retreading old ground with the fiends using them being in danger to emotionally manipulate V.

[OvisCaedo]

Unrelated to all that, Roy's obviously thinking to jump to the FD ahead of Team Evil, slip past the stasis monsters without waking them, and basically be TE's final boss. It'd make a pretty neat bookend to His and Xykon's first meeting.

It would be dramatic, but this... also sounds like the biggest risk they could take. Having their big final battle right near the actual gate seems like it's what everyone involved MOST wanted to avoid. Or, at least Serini wanted to avoid. (and went about terribly)

[Shining Wrath]

"My name is Starshine".

And beware the ice weasels!

But I'm beginning to see the possibility of problems. Serini didn't actually go through the gate post Xykon, we aren't sure it goes where it's supposed to; and Haley has set herself up to not spot one of Serini's traps because that's much funnier than if she finds them all.

[Emberlily]

this page would already be well dense enough with text (it does simulate the auditory chaos of a cafeteria well in that regard) without the 5th panel (Roy and Belkar) and that panel doesn't seem to be a semi-punchline put in for comedic pacing (4th panel already has several jokes), so its inclusion seems very deliberate.

in part it does obviously touch upon Belkar's arc and his evolving relationship with Roy and the others (and the way that deals with change and growth of a person in general), and probably touching a bit on the way our heroes have had to reconsider things in the past several hours, but I think it also might be a bit of a call for the audience to take a moment to see if they have or should changed their mind on anything about the story recently? a lot of new light has been shined on things this recent arc

also I might be focusing on that panel a lot bc it made me laugh a bunch, but it seemed fairly pointed beyond its humor value alone

[Precure]

I take it as a hint that Rich himself might have changed some of his ideas.

[The MunchKING]

Man, people with cold resistance must be pretty expensive if they send someone who would freeze to death before they'd hire one of them.

I mean they DO SAY "Rain or sleet or shine", That guy is just so Lawful he'd rather DIE than let mail go undelivered on his watch.

[Provengreil]

It would be dramatic, but this... also sounds like the biggest risk they could take. Having their big final battle right near the actual gate seems like it's what everyone involved MOST wanted to avoid. Or, at least Serini wanted to avoid. (and went about terribly)

Roy agreed with that plan, at first. So did everyone with a speaking line at the time. However, that was discussed before they knew TE was powering through the entire gauntlet in like a day. They are not going to be able to move the confrontation to a place of choice, unless that place is the valley outside. At this point, the best option is to hit them when they are lowest on magic: right at the end. It's even been foreshadowed. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1275.html)

[TuringTest]

Oh also, she says her memory is perfect, but that's not what she said here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1250.html). Call her out on it, Haley!

I'm getting a feeling that Haley and Serini might end up getting along really well, possibly better than Belkar, even if they got off to a bad start.

They have so much in common, and rogues are typically not the type to make bonds with their peers; double so for Haley and her inherited distrust of anybody non-family. But here they are, working together in a real end-of-the-world scenario.

Serini with her antiquated traps and her huge pile of XPs and epic adventures could prove to be a wonderful mentor figure (maybe the tragic kind that ends badly, to doubly subvert our expectations (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0931.html)).

[KorvinStarmast]

Five gold says that the fact that nobody has laid eyes on the Gate since sealing it up is going to be relevant before the end of the book. can't bet against that.

Deeply gratified to see that the ice weasels have a home in the frozen tundra.
“Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come.”
I like the ref to a cartoon writer ... my first exposure to MG was his comic strips, in an Austin newspaper, lwell before the Simpsons ever existed.

[Peelee]

Five gold says that the fact that nobody has laid eyes on the Gate since sealing it up is going to be relevant before the end of the book.

What the hell, I'm in.

[KishouTheBadger]

Wow a lot of text in this here page.

"Living in a cave at the north pole" has the same energy as "living in a van down by the river", and I love it. Also, RIP mail carrier.

[elros]

At night, the ice weasels come . . .

Great reference
Thanks for pointing out it was a reference (https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/matt_groening_158819)!

[pearl jam]

Or they don't deliver there often enough to justify the cost of hiring a specific creature like that and they can easily replace the dead one.

Which is why it's so important that essential services like mail delivery not be tied to profit motive... :smallannoyed:

[Fyraltari]

*Sees the title* Oh, back with Xykon so soon?
*Opens the strip* nope, still with the Order, I'm expecting an ominous transition.
*Reads the strip* How is this going to connect with Xykon.
*Reads last panel* Ha! I get it.

[BloodSquirrel]

Five gold says that the fact that nobody has laid eyes on the Gate since sealing it up is going to be relevant before the end of the book.

That occurred to me at the time, but now that it's being brought to my attention afresh I'm wondering if the Gate is even still there. The Snarl may have broken through it already, except without the expected result of destroying the world. Yet.

Which leads to another interesting question- if the world within the rifts is new, and wasn't part of the previous cycles, what's different this time? Is this the first time anyone has tried sealing it with gates? Is the purple quib someone involved? Or have the Gods just never noticed it before because they were keeping it at a distance?

I've got to say, it's amazing how many plot threads are leading into this finale, how intertwined they all are, and how OOTs has been able to manage it's plot threads so consistently well that everyone seems to have total confidence that they'll all tie in together satisfyingly.

[Nembrotha]

So... Depending on how the magic butt-tattoo works, might be all Xykon needs to do is drag Serini through a tunnel with him and the portal will open for her, letting him in as well?

[Shining Wrath]

So... Depending on how the magic butt-tattoo works, might be all Xykon needs to do is drag Serini through a tunnel with him and the portal will open for her, letting him in as well?

I wonder if she even needs to be alive. Or whole - just bring her butt, leave all other parts behind.

[137beth]

The amount of detail to how the traps work we're getting in this page seems like a pretty clear indication that it's going to matter.

[Mic_128]

yeah I want to bet with you. the Snarl can't be so predictable. still I want to believe crazy theory as Laurin is the 6th gate (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?511748-Laurin-Shattersmith-is-a-gate-of-the-Snarl)

I dunno, the point of the gates was to seal up fractures in reality. They already said that they couldn't be moved (hence why a huge castle was built up to lock away the tiny rift that had formed up high in the sky) so having her be a gate doesn't seem to be likely, nor the slightest bit effective. You could argue she was a rift, but then the snarl should be trying to burst out of her. I suspect that she - and maybe Myron? - could end up becoming helpful at sealing the desert rift.

[elros]

That occurred to me at the time, but now that it's being brought to my attention afresh I'm wondering if the Gate is even still there. The Snarl may have broken through it already, except without the expected result of destroying the world. Yet.

Which leads to another interesting question- if the world within the rifts is new, and wasn't part of the previous cycles, what's different this time? Is this the first time anyone has tried sealing it with gates? Is the purple quib someone involved? Or have the Gods just never noticed it before because they were keeping it at a distance?

I've got to say, it's amazing how many plot threads are leading into this finale, how intertwined they all are, and how OOTs has been able to manage it's plot threads so consistently well that everyone seems to have total confidence that they'll all tie in together satisfyingly.
I predict the OOTS will see the final gate and there will be something inside it (maybe a planet or ocean), and Serini will say that was not how it was before. It will set a reveal where we learn more about the Snarl and what is beyond the gates.

[Windscion]

I predict the OOTS will see the final gate and there will be something inside it (maybe a planet or ocean), and Serini will say that was not how it was before. It will set a reveal where we learn more about the Snarl and what is beyond the gates.

Given that the snarl is a macguffin not a character (WoG), I think the gates are responsible for the planet. I have no idea how -- I would expect the gates to use the conceal and/or banish seeds, neither of which should generate a real (or illusory) planet.

[Lumix19]

Given that the snarl is a macguffin not a character (WoG), I think the gates are responsible for the planet. I have no idea how -- I would expect the gates to use the conceal and/or banish seeds, neither of which should generate a real (or illusory) planet.

I think there's a decent chance that the Snarl is responsible for the planet.

Sure it's a MacGuffin, but I interpret that as it having no agency within this story, nor really a point-of-view that is going to end up shaping the outcome of the series.

It's not an inanimate object though, or a non-sentient character (as far as we know). I imagine it can still do things, if off-screen, and it seems more likely to be doing things than an actual inanimate object (the Gates).

[Windscion]

I think there's a decent chance that the Snarl is responsible for the planet.

Sure it's a MacGuffin, but I interpret that as it having no agency within this story, nor really a point-of-view that is going to end up shaping the outcome of the series.

It's not an inanimate object though, or a non-sentient character (as far as we know). I imagine it can still do things, if off-screen, and it seems more likely to be doing things than an actual inanimate object (the Gates).

I would agree except that the snarl is a thing of chaos, and a planet is orderly (on its own scales).

Also, I came up with a theory about how the conceal seed could generate the planet: if the concealment causes the snarl to lose track of some bits, those might coalesce into something like their original form. (Normally that wouldn't work, but the snarl is ... unusual.)

[danielxcutter]

So, defaults to funniest body part? Why do I have the feeling that the butt stamp trap was the most complex* effect?

*Complex, not (necessarily) high-level or whatever. Multiple low-level spells and/or feats and stuff put together would be more complex than say, a single Meteor Swarm trap.

[Provengreil]

So... Depending on how the magic butt-tattoo works, might be all Xykon needs to do is drag Serini through a tunnel with him and the portal will open for her, letting him in as well?

As I theorized before, this is a great reason for Serini to have been so tight lipped before. If she tells the order and Xykon finds out, he's coming straight for her.

[Darkhands]

That was a lot of effort put into the comic about soup. Suspiciously a lot.

Oh man, is there still amnesia potion in that pot? Is the whole party and Serini going to lose their memories of this plan?

[The MunchKING]

That was a lot of effort put into the comic about soup. Suspiciously a lot.

Oh man, is there still amnesia potion in that pot? Is the whole party and Serini going to lose their memories of this plan?

I mean it got knocked over pretty hard (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1251.html). If there's any left, it's probably just a bit in the bottom that would make them forget how good the meal was or something. :smallcool:

[gatemansgc]

Also, Familicide is propably one of these old spells that haven't been seen in ages, or something like that. Can't imagine Haerta being a newly dead soul without anything being mentioned about it.

makes sense. who knows how long the IFCC had been sitting on those souls?

[DaOldeWolf]

Maybe the local postal service is just… Evil, or something? (Also, they apparently don't actually maintain a presence in the general area, seeing how they sent a human.)

Isnt that always the case? Between damaged and lost packages and how slow it goes. I though being evil was part of the requirement of any postal service. :smalltongue:

Moving along, I wonder if this is set up for something else. The Malack and Durkon drinking tea while talking about religion pops to mind for some reason with this strip. It really sounds like something is being set up but I am not 100% sure what it could be.

[TuringTest]

That was a lot of effort put into the comic about soup. Suspiciously a lot.

Oh man, is there still amnesia potion in that pot? Is the whole party and Serini going to lose their memories of this plan?

Now that you mention it, Serini mentioned a cleaning wand but we didn't get to see it in panel being used in the cauldron. :smallconfused:

It wouldn't be out of character for the Order to forget that little detail, to compensate for the consistent efficiency that they have recently demonstrated.

[Silencer]

"Lord Coccyx" is a hilarious name for a Lich

[Peelee]

Isnt that always the case? Between damaged and lost packages and how slow it goes. I though being evil was part of the requirement of any postal service. :smalltongue:

Quite frankly, i see at least one postal service are very specifically Good.

[Provengreil]

Now that you mention it, Serini mentioned a cleaning wand but we didn't get to see it in panel being used in the cauldron. :smallconfused:

It wouldn't be out of character for the Order to forget that little detail, to compensate for the consistent efficiency that they have recently demonstrated.

I think Belkar has the group's backs on this one. He's in full blown chef mode, an unclean cookpot is anathema to that.

[faustin]

So Serini has a non renewable supply of monsters in stasis to fill the dungeon.

Does that mean Team Evil could have exhausted such supply by sheer persistence?

[danielxcutter]

If they'd tried to, maybe. Probably not though, and Oona's already told them that the monsters come back eventually but not soon, so they wouldn't have any reason to try that.

[Wintermoot]

So Serini has a non renewable supply of monsters in stasis to fill the dungeon.

Does that mean Team Evil could have exhausted such supply by sheer persistence?

that's not what is happening.

the Monsters frozen in stasis in the final dungeon have been there from the beginning and remain there.

The "refilling" of the outer dungeons are done with external assets. We see Serini recruiting some in an earlier strip.

[brian 333]

Man, people with cold resistance must be pretty expensive if they send someone who would freeze to death before they'd hire one of them.

The postmaster had an in-law looking for a job, and it is well known that someone has to die before a position in civil service opens up.

[Metastachydium]

Isnt that always the case? Between damaged and lost packages and how slow it goes. I though being evil was part of the requirement of any postal service. :smalltongue:


The postmaster had an in-law looking for a job, and it is well known that someone has to die before a position in civil service opens up.

Heh. These ones get it.


that's not what is happening.

the Monsters frozen in stasis in the final dungeon have been there from the beginning and remain there.

The "refilling" of the outer dungeons are done with external assets. We see Serini recruiting some in an earlier strip.

I wonder how that was supposed to work out while the plan was still Serini walking the earth, free of earthly cares and troll flesh grafts.

[littlebum2002]

I don't think even knowing what was happening as it happened would have helped the Draketeeth. And the Sapphire Guard had pretty good modern intel.

Having people who weren't Draketeeth guarding the pyramid would have helped, though.

[Wintermoot]

I wonder how that was supposed to work out while the plan was still Serini walking the earth, free of earthly cares and troll flesh grafts.

One can "walk the earth, free of earthly cares" and still check in periodically to see if the tomb needs restocking. They are not mutually exclusive. I work Monday to Friday, but Weekends? Weekends are allllll Wintermoot-time.

Besides, we see her having a Purple Worm delivered in the crayons of time, so there is apparently contractors you can use to purchase stock if you don't want to get them yourself.

Shop Smart. Shop S-monster-Mart.

[faustin]

One can "walk the earth, free of earthly cares" and still check in periodically to see if the tomb needs restocking. They are not mutually exclusive. I work Monday to Friday, but Weekends? Weekends are allllll Wintermoot-time.

Besides, we see her having a Purple Worm delivered in the crayons of time, so there is apparently contractors you can use to purchase stock if you don't want to get them yourself.

Shop Smart. Shop S-monster-Mart.

Do dungeon contractors exist in the Stickverse? Because that should be a very lucrative market.

[BloodSquirrel]

Having people who weren't Draketeeth guarding the pyramid would have helped, though.

Only due to a very unforeseeable contingency that specifically targeted their bloodline.

Otherwise, it was a flawed, but not totally logically unreasonable security measure. I find it kind of funny how people try to credit Serini for being a genius for maintaining operational secrecy in ways that made no sense and very, very predictably proved counter-productive, but never give the rest of the Scribblers credit for their far-more effective measures to maintain secrecy (Cloister, the SG, pretty much everything Draketooth did).

Going all-in on obscurity wasn't a bad plan. Yeah, it had its weaknesses, and Girard's supposition that family was fundamentally more trustworthy than hand-picking honorable paladins was flawed. But given how Xykon has been able to break all of the other gates' defenses (except for Dorukan's glyph) given enough time, it's completely reasonable to suppose that preventing him from finding the gate in the first place was a better defensive measure than just throwing a bunch of monsters at him. Meanwhile, a lot of other security measures that he could have used might have compromised said obscurity. Having more people involved means having more people who can talk. Having additional spells/structures creates additional dependencies that require maintenance that could be tracked back to you. Having a larger temple to accommodate more monsters and traps would make hiding it with illusions harder. And all of the resources needed to maintain those would have had to come out of the budget being used for the illusions. And it's also reasonable to point out that Xykon only found the other gates in the first place because of Serini's journal, so it wasn't a family member who ultimately failed him.

But to get back to the original point- the fundamental weakness of all of the gates' defenses was that the Scribblers over-relied on their specialty because they couldn't work with each other. But that's subtly different from leaning into your strongest suit when you're an epic spellcaster and every other option you have available would be an order of magnitude less powerful. Most of the gates' defenses were still very, very good, and the flaw that allowed Xykon to crack them was a tragic flaw that he had to work to exploit, not just some obvious gaping hole. Working together might have made them even better, but there's a big difference between Dorukan putting his glyph on all of the gates and Girard hiring a mid-tier wizard to try to do the same.

[Peelee]

Having people who weren't Draketeeth guarding the pyramid would have helped, though.

Sure, but that's not an intel problem.

[Provengreil]

Do dungeon contractors exist in the Stickverse? Because that should be a very lucrative market.

I'm quite sure there's a thriving grey market dungeon industry in such a rules-aware universe. Miners, builders, enchanters, trappers, monster ranchers...You'd find someone if you knew what shadows to ask.

[Ionathus]

Having people who weren't Draketeeth guarding the pyramid would have helped, though.

And there it is: "Familicide was a predictable vulnerability" -- mark your Scribbler Discussion bingo cards, folks! :smallbiggrin:

Jokes aside, I still take the same thing from this discussion as I have from all other recent comparisons between the Scribblers' gate defenses: some of them were better than others, some were more future-proofed, but they all had weaknesses, and despite those weaknesses they were all Epic-level defenses, and the moral of the story remains the same: they all relied on their individual values & abilities instead of the strength of their team, and that is ultimately why each failed.

[Peelee]

Do dungeon contractors exist in the Stickverse? Because that should be a very lucrative market.

Looks about as lucrative as real-world contractors (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

[LtPowers]

Why do I get the feeling this is Chekhov's Soup?


Powers &8^]

[bunsen_h]

The postmaster had an in-law looking for a job, and it is well known that someone has to die before a position in civil service opens up.

Or had a disliked in-law doing delivery, and got a bright idea for where to send them.

[Metastachydium]

Do dungeon contractors exist in the Stickverse? Because that should be a very lucrative market.

Not when random locations just get dungeonized automatically and free of charge (or at negative cost, after accounting for the drapes). (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html)


One can "walk the earth, free of earthly cares" and still check in periodically to see if the tomb needs restocking. They are not mutually exclusive. I work Monday to Friday, but Weekends? Weekends are allllll Wintermoot-time.

Besides, we see her having a Purple Worm delivered in the crayons of time, so there is apparently contractors you can use to purchase stock if you don't want to get them yourself.

Shop Smart. Shop S-monster-Mart.

I mean, I've always read the whole "left it to fend for itself" thing (which she confirmed was the plan) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html) as a tad more than taking vacation days and having Serini time at the weekends.

[Wintermoot]

I mean, I've always read the whole "left it to fend for itself" thing (which she confirmed was the plan) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html) as a tad more than taking vacation days and having Serini time at the weekends.

Great. I've always read it as something akin to "Will check in periodically (once a year, once every couple years) to restock the dungeons if needed. Which seems like a working solution when there isn't a epic level adventuring party engaged at working their way through the line up. Seems like most average level adventuring parties would be wiped out by whatever can challenge team evil.

Seems like a large vast grey sea between two equally valid ways of reading it.

[brian 333]

And there it is: "Familicide was a predictable vulnerability" -- mark your Scribbler Discussion bingo cards, folks! :smallbiggrin:

Jokes aside, I still take the same thing from this discussion as I have from all other recent comparisons between the Scribblers' gate defenses: some of them were better than others, some were more future-proofed, but they all had weaknesses, and despite those weaknesses they were all Epic-level defenses, and the moral of the story remains the same: they all relied on their individual values & abilities instead of the strength of their team, and that is ultimately why each failed.

Lirian's defense did not fail; the gate was destroyed during the attempt to capture it.

Dorukon's defense didn't fail; the gate was destroyed after it was used to destroy Xykon.

Soon's defense didn't fail; the gate was destroyed moments before its defenders completely and utterly destroyed Team Evil.

Girard's defense didn't fail. After the Vector Legion was faked out of looking deeper into its hiding place, Roy intentionally destroyed the gate on the assumption that TE would not fall for the same gambit that defeated the VL.

So, the failure rate of the defenses in every scenario is 0%. None of the gates have so far been defeated by the bad guys.

[CantRecoverOld]

A cursory Googling suggests Matt Groening, Life in Hell.

I have all of Goening's Life In Hell books. But they are in boxes. I am not remembering, though. Someone please remind my leaky memory?

[DavidSh]

I have all of Goening's Life In Hell books. But they are in boxes. I am not remembering, though. Someone please remind my leaky memory?

Actual pointers to the panel that contains the quote all seem to be copyright violations, but it can be described as a set of several quotes about love, falsely attributed to various philosophers. This one, given below, is attributed to Nietzsche.


can't bet against that.

Deeply gratified to see that the ice weasels have a home in the frozen tundra.
“Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come.”
I like the ref to a cartoon writer ... my first exposure to MG was his comic strips, in an Austin newspaper, lwell before the Simpsons ever existed.

[Wintermoot]

Lirian's defense did not fail; the gate was destroyed during the attempt to capture it.

Dorukon's defense didn't fail; the gate was destroyed after it was used to destroy Xykon.

Soon's defense didn't fail; the gate was destroyed moments before its defenders completely and utterly destroyed Team Evil.

Girard's defense didn't fail. After the Vector Legion was faked out of looking deeper into its hiding place, Roy intentionally destroyed the gate on the assumption that TE would not fall for the same gambit that defeated the VL.

So, the failure rate of the defenses in every scenario is 0%. None of the gates have so far been defeated by the bad guys.

What exactly is your definition of failure?

Because its very different than mine.

The purpose of the "gate" is to KEEP THE RIFT FROM GROWING LARGER AND THE SNARL FROM CROSSING THROUGH IT. Period.

The purpose of the "gate defenses" is to keep the gate safe and free to do its job. Meaning, very primarily, not being destroyed.


Lirian's Gate and Dorokun's gate were both destroyed. We know that Dorokun posited that the Gate could theoretically be used to weaponize the rift, but he didn't posit that until after they have built the gates. When he posited it, he decided to put in a self destruct option. We can assume or not assume that he told Lirian and that's why she set hers up to be destroyed as well. If you want to give them that, then their gates "being destroyed" can theoretically be seen as "not failing" But not being destroyed is undeniably preferable to being destroyed. So saying "their gate defenses didn't fail" becuase they rigged a "gate being blown up if all else fails" as a win-factor. I don't agree with that assertion, but I'm not going to argue it either.

The fact that Miko and Roy "had" to destroy the gate to emulate that self-destruct failsafe, doesn't mean the gate or gate defenses in Soon or Girard's complexes "succeeded" either.

[Precure]

Liroan, Dorukan (and maybe Soon as well?) serms to believe that destroying the gate is better option than let it be used by someone evil. Hence they planned their defense in that way.

[Vikenlugaid]

Even if they planned to destroy the gates before someone weaponizes them, that destruction is preferable only in one scenario: after all the defenses have failed.

[brian 333]

In all four cases the defenses succeeded. The gates were not captured by the bad guys.

It was, in every case, the gate defenders who destroyed the gate. Treants who didn't know how to extinguish fire, a boy-child who couldn't resist playing with buttons, a self-appointed judge of right and wrong, and an adventurer who could not trust anyone but himself, all of whom had assumed a personal responsibility to protect the gates and the world, were responsible for actually destroying the gates. Team Evil never even got close to their ultimate goal because of the gate defenses in all but the last case.

[danielxcutter]

Or had a disliked in-law doing delivery, and got a bright idea for where to send them.

You know what they say; the difference between outlaws and in-laws is that outlaws are wanted!


Even if they planned to destroy the gates before someone weaponizes them, that destruction is preferable only in one scenario: after all the defenses have failed.

If the Scribblers could agree on one thing, it’s that getting the world taken over or destroyed due to the Rifts was a fail state.

[Rrmcklin]

I find it interesting that Lirian wouldn't play ball with Serini. For the most part the strife seemed to be between the male Scribblers, and I don't think we've gotten anything really implying her position on the whole separation thing at all.

[Ruck]

I find it interesting that Lirian wouldn't play ball with Serini. For the most part the strife seemed to be between the male Scribblers, and I don't think we've gotten anything really implying her position on the whole separation thing at all.

I don't think we have either (other than what we know of her relationship with Dorukan). I think the Giant mentioned in a commentary, though, that at some point this book we would learn more of the full story behind the separation of the Scribble, and we have one living member left now who's with the Order to tell it.

[Larsaan]

I find it interesting that Lirian wouldn't play ball with Serini. For the most part the strife seemed to be between the male Scribblers, and I don't think we've gotten anything really implying her position on the whole separation thing at all.

As a general rule, druids tend to be quite opposed to using their powers to create wholly artificial systems, just on the principle that it goes against the concept of "untamed nature".

[spruce56]

Don't know if it's just something funky with cookies/cache, but for me, 1279 isn't showing up on the main https://www.giantitp.com/ page, but it appears if I click a particular comic page like https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1278.html

[Provengreil]

As a general rule, druids tend to be quite opposed to using their powers to create wholly artificial systems, just on the principle that it goes against the concept of "untamed nature".

Start of Darkness spoiler:

But Lirian has done exactly that at least once. Her gate defense was the only one that outright scored a victory against Xykon, and she imprisoned him in just such a situation. So she's not against it, at least where gate defenses would have been concerned.

[Vikenlugaid]

In all four cases the defenses succeeded. The gates were not captured by the bad guys.

It was, in every case, the gate defenders who destroyed the gate. Treants who didn't know how to extinguish fire, a boy-child who couldn't resist playing with buttons, a self-appointed judge of right and wrong, and an adventurer who could not trust anyone but himself, all of whom had assumed a personal responsibility to protect the gates and the world, were responsible for actually destroying the gates. Team Evil never even got close to their ultimate goal because of the gate defenses in all but the last case.
SPOILERS OF START OF DARKNESS
Well, in Lirian's case, the defenses didn't succeded at all, they were all obliterated.

[Cryos]

HA! Ice Weasels!

[brian 333]

SPOILERS OF START OF DARKNESS
Well, in Lirian's case, the defenses didn't succeded at all, they were all obliterated.

In Lirian's case, in TEs first attack her defenses worked 100%. TE was defeated and imprisoned.
In TE's second attack, the guardians of the gate ripped it to shreds before TE could capture it.

[Vikenlugaid]

In Lirian's case, in TEs first attack her defenses worked 100%. TE was defeated and imprisoned.
In TE's second attack, the guardians of the gate ripped it to shreds before TE could capture it.

Winning the first assault bit then losing the second is still failing. And the defenses failed, is not like vs Soon, or Dorukan's sigil, where Xykon couldn't get the gate BECAUSE of the defenses, in Lirian's case the defenses didn't stop Xykon, and only an accident caused by Redcloak "saved the day", not the defenses, the defenses totally failed there.

[Provengreil]

Winning the first assault bit then losing the second is still failing. And the defenses failed, is not like vs Soon, or Dorukan's sigil, where Xykon couldn't get the gate BECAUSE of the defenses, in Lirian's case the defenses didn't stop Xykon, and only an accident caused by Redcloak "saved the day", not the defenses, the defenses totally failed there.

Going 1 for 2 is hardly "obliterated/didn't succeed at all", especially when the enemy comes back the second time with near-perfect knowledge of, and hard counters to, your primary defense mechanisms.

Also, the fact that Kim Soon himself agreed that destroying his gate was a good thing, plus Dorukan outright having a self destruct rune, suggests to me that the treants breaking the gate was intentional, as a denial mechanism. If an epic druid can't handle a fairly regular fire, even mid-combat, the threat is so great that the security of the gate is at risk, and is therefore broken. So I don't consider the fire to have "saved the day" by accident, but rather as one permutation of an intentional self-destruct feature.

[Vikenlugaid]

Going 1 for 2 is hardly "obliterated/didn't succeed at all", especially when the enemy comes back the second time with near-perfect knowledge of, and hard counters to, your primary defense mechanisms.

Also, the fact that Kim Soon himself agreed that destroying his gate was a good thing, plus Dorukan outright having a self destruct rune, suggests to me that the treants breaking the gate was intentional, as a denial mechanism. If an epic druid can't handle a fairly regular fire, even mid-combat, the threat is so great that the security of the gate is at risk, and is therefore broken. So I don't consider the fire to have "saved the day" by accident, but rather as one permutation of an intentional self-destruct feature.

But the defenses failed anyway, destroying the gate is just the last resource to use only when everything else have failed, if the defenses would have succeded there wouldn't be any reason to destroy the gate.
In Soon's and Dorukan's gates, the defense were operative and still some idiot/fanatic destroyed the gate, the defenses didn't failed there. But Lirian's case is different, the defenses were defeated.

I mean, if that counts as a succes then better don't succes at the fifth gate

[brian 333]

But the defenses failed anyway, destroying the gate is just the last resource to use only when everything else have failed, if the defenses would have succeded there wouldn't be any reason to destroy the gate.
In Soon's and Dorukan's gates, the defense were operative and still some idiot/fanatic destroyed the gate, the defenses didn't failed there. But Lirian's case is different, the defenses were defeated.

I mean, if that counts as a succes then better don't succes at the fifth gate

The defenses defeated Team Evil. Lirian declined to kill them quickly, and an extraordinarily rare, virtually inconceivable event occurred: Redcloak, in the absence of the acouterments (120,000 gp value and all the laboratory/temple requirements for crafting magical items,) usually needed to create a phylactery was able to turn a dying sorcerer into a lich.

Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to claim that something that happened in the story should not have happened. What I am saying is that it was something nobody could have anticipated occurring.

Attack #2 was successful, but Team Evil did not capture the gate because, as I said in my original post, those charged with defending it destroyed it instead.

To date, Team Evil has not captured, nor have they destroyed, any gate.

[Provengreil]

But the defenses failed anyway, destroying the gate is just the last resource to use only when everything else have failed, if the defenses would have succeded there wouldn't be any reason to destroy the gate.
In Soon's and Dorukan's gates, the defense were operative and still some idiot/fanatic destroyed the gate, the defenses didn't failed there. But Lirian's case is different, the defenses were defeated.

I mean, if that counts as a succes then better don't succes at the fifth gate

The point of the defenses of the gates is to keep them out of the hands of those who would cause extreme harm by controlling them, and keep the snarl contained so long as even one still exists. If Lirian's defenses had failed, then Team Evil would have a gate. Its destruction may be the worst possible success state, but in terms of the main goal it's still a success.

However, succeeding in the same way is no longer possible because the second failure condition is now in play, that no more gates would remain. This was explicitly discussed in the strip just a few comics back.
EDIT: typo.

[Liquor Box]

It seems a bit semantic to argue whether the gate being destroyed is a success or a failure. Obviously the preferred outcome for the defender is that any attacker is defeated with the gate left intact. The worst outcome is the gate falling into the hands of someone like Xykon. The gate being destroyed sits somewhere between those two outcomes. It means neither the best, nor the worst outcome was achieved. Whether you view that as a success or failure just depends on perspective.


A couple of points on LIrian's.
First, I don't think its destruction was planned by Lirian. It was presented as if the gate wouldn't have been broken if Redcloak hadn't cast a fire spell - certainly Xykon blames Redclaok for it.
Second, I just want to remake the point that, although Xykon and Redcloak's solution to Lirian's disease/imprisonment attack was creative and required an unusual confluence of circumstances, it wasn;t the only solution. There were lots of solutions that might have rendered attackers immune from the disease, or allowed them to escape. It's not like Xykon becoming a LIch was the only possible way. For example, Redclaok suggests that Heal might have worked if he had been high enough level to cast it (as he is now).

[Vikenlugaid]

The defenses defeated Team Evil. Lirian declined to kill them quickly, and an extraordinarily rare, virtually inconceivable event occurred: Redcloak, in the absence of the acouterments (120,000 gp value and all the laboratory/temple requirements for crafting magical items,) usually needed to create a phylactery was able to turn a dying sorcerer into a lich.

Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to claim that something that happened in the story should not have happened. What I am saying is that it was something nobody could have anticipated occurring.

Attack #2 was successful, but Team Evil did not capture the gate because, as I said in my original post, those charged with defending it destroyed it instead.

To date, Team Evil has not captured, nor have they destroyed, any gate.

I never said that it was fair for Lirian, but the defenses failed anyway, the defenses didn't defeated team evil, only won the first assault, but not the full battle. Again, the gate should be destroyed only when everything else have failed, obviously, and that's not part of the defenses, the definition of "defense" is to protect something from harm or danger, not to destroy it yourself. Even if they planned to destroy the gates before letting someone use them, that's something apart from the defenses and only to use it when the defenses have failed, because if not, it is absurd to destroy a safe gate.

I mean, if my PC has a virus, the defense is the antivirus, and if it fails defeating the virus, i should format the PC. Ok, at the end I win, but the defense failed, I won only because I did a drastic action once the defense failed, an action I wouldn't have needed to do if the defense wouldn't have failed.


And yes, Xykon has been denied of his price til now, but that's not really a victory for the world, the gods were really really near of destroying the world anyway, and they would have destroyed it if it wasn't because some of the northen gods think this cicle is special because of the purple quiddity and that.

And there is still the debate if the world can survive long time with some gates destroyed, their rifts opened, even if some other gates were still intact. If only one gate intact is enough, why take so much trouble finding, sealing and defending 5.

[unbeliever536]

I think panel 5 is my favorite in the extremely high quality "Roy and Belkar obliquely discuss character development" series of exchanges.

[Emberlily]

the dynamic between those two since the godsmoot has given us a lot of good lil exchanges

[Mic_128]

Shop Smart. Shop S-monster-Mart.

Man, I hadn't thought of Monster Mart in ages (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/13p7/)


Start of Darkness spoiler:

But Lirian has done exactly that at least once. Her gate defense was the only one that outright scored a victory against Xykon, and she imprisoned him in just such a situation. So she's not against it, at least where gate defenses would have been concerned.

Yeah, but that was a singular prison that only contained the villains and mushrooms. Serini wanted (multiples?) those for a huge number of innocent creatures. I can see why she'd refuse.

[joosy]

Why do I get the feeling this is Chekhov's Soup?


Powers &8^]


Until I see Serini actually consume the soup I am going to assume they were able to sneak something into it to incapacitate the party. I don't believe Serini is willing to play ball this easily.

[Kish]

Why do I get the feeling this is Chekhov's Soup?


Powers &8^]


Until I see Serini actually consume the soup I am going to assume they were able to sneak something into it to incapacitate the party. I don't believe Serini is willing to play ball this easily.
10 gold says the soup is just soup cooked by Belkar.

(Another 10 gold says Serini's pronouns are she/her.)

[Oromin]

That is way too much soup for that many people. Clearly the soup will be the key to the Monster in Darkness fully switching sides.

[danielxcutter]

10 gold says the soup is just soup cooked by Belkar.

(Another 10 gold says Serini's pronouns are she/her.)

Joosy may have meant “they” as Sunny and Serini. Idk.

[Mic_128]

I don't believe Serini is willing to play ball this easily.

They ambushed and nearly taken out, fled on a chase that included more ambushes and secret passages, fought to a draw in a bluff-off, had her get eaten by a celestial shark, tied her up, and only when Belkar reminded her how self-serving the Gods are did she start to share information.

That's not what I'd describe as "this easily".

[Rizzer]

Nice shout out to firefox (https://www.pcworld.com/article/419749/iceweasel-will-be-renamed-firefox-as-relations-between-debian-and-mozilla-thaw.html) :)

[Rizzer]

Nice shout out to firefox (https://www.pcworld.com/article/419749/iceweasel-will-be-renamed-firefox-as-relations-between-debian-and-mozilla-thaw.html) :)

Well, maybe Matt Groening. Or Nietsche. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_IceCat)

[Throknor]

Not when random locations just get dungeonized automatically and free of charge (or at negative cost, after accounting for the drapes). (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html)


Huh. How prescient this is: "There's simply no way a bunch of random monsters could ever defeat the three of us."

Obviously, it can be argued whether the monsters being stocked qualify as 'random'. But the point can be made that Rich knew they'd be running a gauntlet like this all the way back then and, more importantly, dropped some explicit foreshadowing as an apparent throwaway line.

The question becomes whether or not the last panel means that Roy is destined to break his sword again...

[Diachronos]

Also, Familicide is propably one of these old spells that haven't been seen in ages, or something like that. Can't imagine Haerta being a newly dead soul without anything being mentioned about it.

The souls that the IFCC offered up for the Soul Splice might not even be from the current world at all. We already know that the gods use the souls of their worshipers to sustain themselves between the death and creation of each world, but nobody's ever said that they can't hold onto some of those souls for other purposes.
It's possible that the IFCC are gods themselves (or at least close enough to it that they can survive the transfer to a new world after the Snarl gets loose) and they're holding onto those particular souls just in case they have an opportunity to further their goals by offering a Soul Splice to a mortal.

[Peelee]

The souls that the IFCC offered up for the Soul Splice might not even be from the current world at all.
This isn't an infrequent suggestion, but it has zero backing, any that which can be offered without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

It's possible that the IFCC are gods themselves (or at least close enough to it that they can survive the transfer to a new world after the Snarl gets loose).

It's not possible they are gods, or even "close enough".

[DavidSh]

It's not possible they are gods, or even "close enough".
Wasn't there something about Outer Planers getting their memories wiped when a new world is created? That would imply that they survive the interval, but their schemes would not.

[Peelee]

Wasn't there something about Outer Planers getting their memories wiped when a new world is created? That would imply that they survive the interval, but their schemes would not.

Sure, but that has nothing to do with them being gods or "close enough" to gods. They dont rely on belief for their existence - at least, we're not told they do. And regardless, as you point out, we're explicitly told outsiders survive and get mind-wiped, so positing deific status as it relates to surviving to the next world doesn't really work.

[KorvinStarmast]

Actual pointers to the panel that contains the quote all seem to be copyright violations, but it can be described as a set of several quotes about love, falsely attributed to various philosophers. This one, given below, is attributed to Nietzsche.
Which is not likely to be correct, since Nietzsche lived and died before snowmobiles were ever a thing.

(Another 10 gold says Serini's pronouns are she/her.)
As for the cauldron, Freud might offer this suggestion: sometimes a cauldron of soup is simply a cauldron of soup.

That is way too much soup for that many people. Clearly the soup will be the key to the Monster in Darkness fully switching sides. Hard to bet against that. He did, IIRC, enjoy the buzzard dish that Belkar whipped up outside of Azure City (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html).

[Peelee]

Which is not likely to be correct, since Nietzsche lived and died before snowmobiles were ever a thing.

Matt Groening could easily have jokingly attributed it to Nietzsche. Fits with his style, really.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I feel like Rich missed an opportunity to make a joke about fantasy characters always eating stew

Vinny Gambini : So, Mr. Belkar, how could it take you five minutes to cook your stew, when it takes the entire stew-eating world two hours?

Belkar : I don't know. I'm a fast cook, I guess.

Vinny Gambini : I'm sorry, I was all the way over here. I couldn't hear you. Did you say you were a fast cook? That's it?

[Belkar nods]

Vinny Gambini : Are we to believe that boiling water tenderizes meat faster in your kitchen than on any place on the face of the earth?

Belkar : I don't know.

Vinny Gambini : Well, perhaps the laws of physics cease to exist in your camp. Was this a magic cauldron? I mean, did you buy them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans?

Belkar : Yes it magical, and I got it for free with my pocket size ten-foot pole.

Jude Haller : That better not be a euphemism.


I wonder if she even needs to be alive. Or whole - just bring her butt, leave all other parts behind.Xykon apparently doesn't need to be alive.

Although I do think it'll require her whole hole.

[Laurentio III]

I'm the only one bothered by the assumption that Serini could time-freeze Team Evil? If she has the amount of magic to put in stasis a whole hundred of (albeit short but monster-filled) dungeons, what would it take to put intruders "under ice"?

[Kish]

Temporal Stasis (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm).

For the benefit of non-D&D players, aside from the touch requirement and one standard action (and thus one round) needed per victim, assuming Serini has a literally unlimited number of scrolls which she can use with her Use Magic Device...

Xykon, like all undead, is immune to any effect that allows a Fortitude save unless (like Disintegrate) it specifies "can target objects"; he's completely immune to Temporal Stasis.

Though I suspect the rooms of stasised monsters are not really something that has a D&D mechanical exception at all, but, like Soon's Ghost-Martyrs, something epic Serini was just able to do, and the answer to why she can't extend the effect to her enemies is: she can't because she can't, and anyone can accept that or not but calling Rich a SCRUBBED because of it has been empirically proven to result in banning.

[Laurentio III]

Temporal Stasis (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm).

For the benefit of non-D&D players, aside from the touch requirement and one standard action (and thus one round) needed per victim, assuming Serini has a literally unlimited number of scrolls which she can use with her Use Magic Device...

Xykon, like all undead, is immune to any effect that allows a Fortitude save unless (like Disintegrate) it specifies "can target objects"; he's completely immune to Temporal Stasis.

Though I suspect the rooms of stasised monsters are not really something that has a D&D mechanical exception at all, but, like Soon's Ghost-Martyrs, something epic Serini was just able to do, and the answer to why she can't extend the effect to her enemies is: she can't because she can't, and anyone can accept that or not but calling Rich a SCRUBBED because of it has been empirically proven to result in banning.
I'm not expecting it to happen. Serini wouldn't be worried of intruders if she could just push the pause button and take a nap.

Let me rephrase it.
"I'm the only one bothered by the fact that Serini stated to be able to keep a whole set on dungeons under time statis and no one - not even Vaarsuvius - felt the urge to discuss this information?"

It's some insane level of magic, and she is a rogue. I would raise the point with an healthy dose of "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!".
Actually, knowing Mr. Burlew, it will either discussed in the following page (hope not, the pace is slow enough) or handwaved in a single panel "Can't do it at will, it's an automatic feature based on a set of strict-worded wishes and spells by contractors". I understand that the info was needed to esplain how Serini keeps the monsters under check, but would require to much space to explain without killing the final panel, which was very much needed.

[Doctor West]

Point of order: The stasis traps under discussion are only stated to be in the final dungeon, which is sealed off with nowhere for the monsters to eat or eliminate. Not, presumably, all the gauntlets leading up to it.

[Kish]

Indeed, I didn't catch that. So Monster Hollow has monsters who live behind the doors--with presumably some movement both in and out. The final dungeon has monsters who animate and attack you when you trigger (or disarm, in some cases) a trap.

[Laurentio III]

Indeed, I didn't catch that. So Monster Hollow has monsters who live behind the doors--with presumably some movement both in and out. The final dungeon has monsters who animate and attack you when you trigger (or disarm, in some cases) a trap.
Me neither, indeed. So, the last dungeon is rigged with pop-up monsters held in stasis traps while all other dungeons are living in real time.
This raises some different questions, but anyway answers to my specific concern. Thanks.
* Cover myself in a cloak and disappear *

[ZhonLord]

As to how: arcane runes. Based on what we've seen, Serini has some incredible skill with Use Magic Device related rolls. She also has a Craft skill of some kind in order to set up the swapovers. Putting them together though, takes time and presumably expensive ingredients.

Therefore stasis runes are only practical on a small scale after she'd poured everything else into the swapovers and "room cleared" tattoo system for guarding the Final Dungeon. She's invested so much into everything else about Kraagor's Tomb that it's unlikely she had many resources left when all was said and done.

Plus, the regular doors are set up to be attacked and cleared. Which means they need to be restocked. which means putting those regular monsters in stasis would need to be reset, over and over again, when she could instead just recruit them, leave them active, and be done. Conservation of effort, especially on a project of this magnitude.

[danielxcutter]

Also, she could have hired contractors to do the construction. Heck, Dorukan did that, and he’s a wizard.

[gbaji]

I mean, if my PC has a virus, the defense is the antivirus, and if it fails defeating the virus, i should format the PC. Ok, at the end I win, but the defense failed, I won only because I did a drastic action once the defense failed, an action I wouldn't have needed to do if the defense wouldn't have failed.


Well. To follow the "PC with a virus" analogy, the gates act collectively as a system to prevent the snarl's spread. So it's more like a network with multiple PCs acting as gateways for the rest of the network you are protecting (which is "the whole world" in this analogy). As long as any one of these 5 systems is operating, then the whole network is safe.

In that scenario, a defense of "shut down this one PC to protect the network from infection" is absolutely a successful methodology. In fact, it's exactly the sort of anti-viral method used on larger networks (including an anageous "come back later and rebuild the one we scrapped because it was infected" follow up method). Even dropped down to a lower level, files that trigger virus scanners are quarantined if possible, or just deleted if not, even if those actions may cause failures of software that uses those files. Same deal. You always choose "keep the rest of the network safe" ahead of "make sure this one system or file remains functional".

So yeah. When taken as a whole system of "defense against the snarl", I would say that an individual gate being destroyed counts as a "success". Obviously, this assumes that these methods don't occur with such rapidity that the gates can't be repaired and brought back online before all 5 are destroyed, but that's always a limitation wtth this sort of approach. And yeah, even better is "defended against the snarl" *and* "didn't need to be destroyed", but that's not always possible.

[Throknor]

Another crazy thought: what if the monsters in every dungeon are in stasis until triggered, whether by the door or runes or whatever? Would help explain why they don't just eat each other.

[Provengreil]

I never said that it was fair for Lirian, but the defenses failed anyway, the defenses didn't defeated team evil, only won the first assault, but not the full battle. Again, the gate should be destroyed only when everything else have failed, obviously, and that's not part of the defenses, the definition of "defense" is to protect something from harm or danger, not to destroy it yourself. Even if they planned to destroy the gates before letting someone use them, that's something apart from the defenses and only to use it when the defenses have failed, because if not, it is absurd to destroy a safe gate.

I mean, if my PC has a virus, the defense is the antivirus, and if it fails defeating the virus, i should format the PC. Ok, at the end I win, but the defense failed, I won only because I did a drastic action once the defense failed, an action I wouldn't have needed to do if the defense wouldn't have failed.


And yes, Xykon has been denied of his price til now, but that's not really a victory for the world, the gods were really really near of destroying the world anyway, and they would have destroyed it if it wasn't because some of the northen gods think this cicle is special because of the purple quiddity and that.

We don't even need the metaphors though. Dorukan had the self destruct and Kim Soon personally stated that the destruction of a single gate to deny it to Team Evil counted as defending it. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) Serini was less straightforward (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1254.html) (second to last panel), I still read that as agreement to the main point.

I personally use the previous points to inform my assumptions that Lirian's "weaknesses" in the gate were intentional, as seizing the gate without spooking or killing the creatures involved would have been damn near impossible. For the same reason, I also assume Girard left standing orders to break the gate, but obviously there's no way to prove anything about that.

Now, if you want to claim that Xykon not getting control of the gates yet isn't a victory for the world as a whole, fair enough...but you're conflating the scales of conflict here. Control(in Xykon and Redcloak's minds)/Survival(on everyone else's) of the world is the war, and each gate is a battle. The world as a whole and the Order in particular can only win the war if Xykon dies, while TE can only win if they successfully control a gate. That's the war, and it's undecided. Each gate has the same objectives, but "Delay Team Evil" is an optional, better outcome than "Die and lose the world", and is the outcome seen at every gate so far. The good guys buy time but the war continues.

The gods being ready to flip the table present new circumstances though. Now the Order who cannot win with a delay, and must either kill Xykon or lose.


And there is still the debate if the world can survive long time with some gates destroyed, their rifts opened, even if some other gates were still intact. If only one gate intact is enough, why take so much trouble finding, sealing and defending 5.

As for your question of sealing all the rifts when only one is "necessary", just look at how tense things are now, as well as the size of the Azure City rift. You wouldn't hang all your eggs in one basket here, plus there are very good reasons not to let the other rifts fester. Can the world survive a while? I dunno, it's been holding on since Elan pressed that rune, but if the snarl gets free the world's got like half an hour according to Shojo's backstory. I don't think it matters though, because the gods seem pretty much ready to pull the plug the second Xykon or the Snarl can threaten anything.

[brian 333]

Let's be careful we don't overanalyze this too much. I'm sure The Giant put more thought into this than I put into my first dungeon, (a series of rooms in a dungeon, each a tactical problem for a four-man team, with zero consideration given to what the occupants ate, where they defecated, or what they did when adventurers were not around to slay them.) I'm not certain he put the degree of thought into it that we have been.

Besides, I'm convinced that he reads my guesses then changes his intended story to something else just so I'll be wrong. The alternative would be that I'm a bad guesser, and that's just... No.

[Psychronia]

Man. This was obvious already, but that Lirian comment really sells to me how much more effective the Scribble could have been if they had just worked together. Or heck, at least have some kind of emergency alarm that alerts all gate protectors that one of them is being breached, so they could all pop in and absolutely merc the incoming threat.

What do we have?

Lirian wouldn't have fallen if she had literally any of the other party members around, because they'd either have defenses against an unnatural abomination or be practical enough to kill attempted intruders. (Or at least deprive their cell of ingredients and not let them share. I mean...c'mon.)

Dorukan was powerful, but he was kind of the single asset and linchpin. Even if Xykon didn't get him, what...was his plan once old age did him in? He didn't even seem to have apprentices or successors. Leaving aside Lirian to have successors the Draketooth way, keeping a few members of the Sapphire Guard around to deal with any threats that were immune to magic wouldn't have been a bad idea.

Kim Soon's ultimate flaw is more Azure City's general corruption, politics, and twisted ideals that got planted in Miko. Just having someone around to keep them grounded and honest would have been great, but ironically, the Draketooth clan-or at least Sereni would have been so helpful for dealing with people like Kubota.

Girard's clan got suckerpunched by a super-spell they probably couldn't have known about, to be fair, but also, I don't recall any measures against beings straight up immune to illusions. Basically the same issue as with Dorukan, except with less firepower and more longevity. Having any non-family involved could have kept the protection going, and having reliable meatshield paladins or the like around would have made the illusions all the more effective.

Funnily enough, Kraagor's Tomb is one of the most effective precisely because it isn't relying on only one member of the Scribble. Sereni built it on behalf of Kraagor, but also added in some of that Rougish spice to cover up some of the weak points. And even then, her plan was to actually call her former party for help when things got bad.

[danielxcutter]

While I agree on the actual point, I'm fairly sure that the Draketooths had spells besides illusions. Still, that's why a lot of people don't really use that school a lot outside Shadow Evocation/Conjuration once True Seeing and Mind Blank become common.

[Psychronia]

While I agree on the actual point, I'm fairly sure that the Draketooths had spells besides illusions. Still, that's why a lot of people don't really use that school a lot outside Shadow Evocation/Conjuration once True Seeing and Mind Blank become common.

That's true. It's probably not fair to fault a bunch of dead people for not fighting. Especially when there were still actual traps in the pyramid. I guess if they did a lot of rogue stuff, illusions would make it Sneak Attack central, as long as it worked.

[danielxcutter]

Most probably weren't rogue multiclass builds, but as with most editions of D&D indirect approaches via magic are even more horrendously powerful than direct approaches. Such as battlefield control. I recall some of those illusion spells being quite high level; if they had any non-illusion spells even remotely that high - or Shadow Conjuration and Evocation since those actually do work even against something with True Seeing and mind-affecting immunity - then hit-and-run tactics combined with action economy and homeground advantage alone would have made them at least a headache for Team Evil to fight.

Mind, I still think that Xykon'd have been able to blast all the way through, but to be fair to the Draketooths that's basically what he's done for every other Gate besides Azure City anyways.

[Psepha]

This isn't an infrequent suggestion, but it has zero backing, any that which can be offered without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Wait this gets suggested a lot? If they were from another world they probably wouldn't be stick figures

[Vikenlugaid]

Well. To follow the "PC with a virus" analogy, the gates act collectively as a system to prevent the snarl's spread. So it's more like a network with multiple PCs acting as gateways for the rest of the network you are protecting (which is "the whole world" in this analogy). As long as any one of these 5 systems is operating, then the whole network is safe.

How is that? I think it is not suposed to work that way, based on the gods being really nervous even with one gate still perfectly operative. And the Snarl going really out trough Girard's destroyed gate. I don't think the world is safe with just one gate.

[Liquor Box]

How is that? I think it is not suposed to work that way, based on the gods being really nervous even with one gate still perfectly operative. And the Snarl going really out trough Girard's destroyed gate. I don't think the world is safe with just one gate.

Before the Scribble sealed them all five rifts were open, and the Order were said to have weakened the fabric of the universe when they destroyed the second of the five gates.

I think the world is safe with all five gates intact. But for each gate that is destoryed there's an increasing chance of the snarl escaping. So even if the fifth gate were destroyed the world wouldn't end immediately (other than the intervention of the gods), but the risk would just be higher.

[Doug Lampert]

Before the Scribble sealed them all five rifts were open, and the Order were said to have weakened the fabric of the universe when they destroyed the second of the five gates.

I think the world is safe with all five gates intact. But for each gate that is destoryed there's an increasing chance of the snarl escaping. So even if the fifth gate were destroyed the world wouldn't end immediately (other than the intervention of the gods), but the risk would just be higher.

Agreed: Presumably there have been five open rifts at once, prior to the scribble starting their quest. The gods discussed it (a god's moot then has been mentioned), and at that time decided not to pull the plug just yet. So, five rifts is not neccessarily automatic immediate destruction, but the rifts grow and the snarl could claw a new rift tomorrow, so any open rifts are a risk.

[ZhonLord]

Agreed: Presumably there have been five open rifts at once, prior to the scribble starting their quest. The gods discussed it (a god's moot then has been mentioned), and at that time decided not to pull the plug just yet. So, five rifts is not neccessarily automatic immediate destruction, but the rifts grow and the snarl could claw a new rift tomorrow, so any open rifts are a risk.

On top of that it was expressly stated that the shattering of a gate destabilizes its rift (as evidenced by Azure City - I mean Gobbitopia). So if all five rifts are destabilized together, it could rend reality weak enough for the Snarl to finish tearing through.

[Provengreil]

On top of that it was expressly stated that the shattering of a gate destabilizes its rift (as evidenced by Azure City - I mean Gobbitopia). So if all five rifts are destabilized together, it could rend reality weak enough for the Snarl to finish tearing through.

Now that you mention that, didn't Girard's rift look pretty big to have been housed within the pyramid? Especially with them originally sizing the gates to the size of the rifts, hence the Sapphire of Azure City?

[Peelee]

Now that you mention that, didn't Girard's rift look pretty big to have been housed within the pyramid? Especially with them originally sizing the gates to the size of the rifts, hence the Sapphire of Azure City?

We only saw pre-gated Girard's Rift in crayon, which is not necessarily a 100% reliable representation. Post-gate, the size need not correlate to pre-gate size, as we can see with Soon's Rift.

[danielxcutter]

It does suggest that the more Gates are destroyed, the faster the Rifts expand.

…Oh god. Just how big are the ones that Lirian and Dorukan were watching over now? :eek:

[ZhonLord]

So... I just noticed the "Character Appearances by Page" thread isn't on the front page anymore. Anyone have the thread link to it?!

[Peelee]

It does suggest that the more Gates are destroyed, the faster the Rifts expand.

…Oh god. Just how big are the ones that Lirian and Dorukan were watching over now? :eek:

I dont see any indication of that. Soon's rift was originally tiny and when the Gate blew became exponentially larger, while Girard's Gate blew and left a rift that doesnt seem all too outsized, and could probably fit in the lead box that enclosed the Gate.

[danielxcutter]

I dont see any indication of that. Soon's rift was originally tiny and when the Gate blew became exponentially larger, while Girard's Gate blew and left a rift that doesnt seem all too outsized, and could probably fit in the lead box that enclosed the Gate.

Yeah, but that Rift was only open for like a couple hours at that point. Soon's grew to that size over the span of a couple months. The other two Rifts, especially the one Lirian was guarding, has been open for YEARS.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Also, she could have hired contractors to do the construction. Heck, Dorukan did that, and he’s a wizard.He did it like any good wizard, by using the right words in the right circumstance combined with a material component.

It's just, in this case the words of power were "I'll pay" and the material component was 1 million GP worth of gold.

[Peelee]

Yeah, but that Rift was only open for like a couple hours at that point. Soon's grew to that size over the span of a couple months. The other two Rifts, especially the one Lirian was guarding, has been open for YEARS.

... And? We're also told that Soon's stopped growing after those few months.

We have a single data point here for that, we can't extrapolate a pattern from it. Maybe Soon's rift was the only one to grow at all. Maybe it was the only one to stop growing. There's no way to know, because again, single data point for rift size over time, and it may not be the same for the rest of them.

[bunsen_h]

On top of that it was expressly stated that the shattering of a gate destabilizes its rift (as evidenced by Azure City - I mean Gobbitopia). So if all five rifts are destabilized together, it could rend reality weak enough for the Snarl to finish tearing through.

Strictly hypothetically... it may be that if the rifts had been left alone, the Snarl wouldn't have paid much attention to them for a long time. But the magic involved in plugging them up got its attention. It had the immediate benefit of locking up the Snarl, with the downside of having it primed to jump out as soon as the gates failed.

There's the example of the rift discovered by the goblin mage, where his attempt to use divination magic on the rift got the Snarl's attention.


It does suggest that the more Gates are destroyed, the faster the Rifts expand.

…Oh god. Just how big are the ones that Lirian and Dorukan were watching over now? :eek:

Once upon a time, there used to be a forest there. :smallfrown:

[Vikenlugaid]

Before the Scribble sealed them all five rifts were open, and the Order were said to have weakened the fabric of the universe when they destroyed the second of the five gates.

I think the world is safe with all five gates intact. But for each gate that is destoryed there's an increasing chance of the snarl escaping. So even if the fifth gate were destroyed the world wouldn't end immediately (other than the intervention of the gods), but the risk would just be higher.
Agreed with everything except the last phrase, cause we have word of god on the matter, if the last gate is destroyed the Snarl comes put in like ten or fifteen minutes (maybe less, considering that Loki is making an argument about how that is more than enough time for them to react).
The rifts now are not the same than were innthe past, Azure City's rift was very tiny and now is colosal.

[World Illusion]

Soon's rift was the smallest. Small enough to be contained within a single gem. Remember, while destroying a gate destabilizes the rift it's built around, potentially exponentially increasing it's size, the gates are physical objects built around the rifts. The size of each gate before it's destruction is a great indicator of the size it's respective rift was at before it was built.

So Soon's rift-and gate were the smallest- small enough for a single gem, and dorukan's lirian's, and girard's where all about the same size, before they were sealed. Also girard's did get noticeably bigger even just days after the gate's destruction. Going from the size of a room to the size of a house when we see the snarl push through.

[danielxcutter]

I always thought it was less days and more hours with the Rift in Girard's Gate. Even if my fears are overblown and the Rifts that Lirian and Dorukan were guarding aren't the size of mountains by now I do think we'll probably get some exposition/update/etc. about what state those two are in now.

[Peelee]

I always thought it was less days and more hours with the Rift in Girard's Gate.
Same. The fight took place during the day, the Snadl scene took place at dusk, and no indication of days passing between the two. Its almost certainly hours.

And in those few hours, it looks about the same size.

I always thought it was less days and more hours with the Rift in Girard's Gate. Even if my fears are overblown and the Rifts that Lirian and Dorukan were guarding aren't the size of mountains by now I do think we'll probably get some exposition/update/etc. about what state those two are in now.
Not sure about that. In Gobbotopia, it is a sword of Damocles hanging over the entire city. The others are out in the wilderness, already blown, with nobody around to comment om them and no currently known need to comment on them. What would their size matter? The Snarl already unleashed itself through the much smaller rift in the desert, after all, and nobody in thr strip has commented on the size in any way except for Redcloak, and even then only when he was in Gobnotopia living underneath it every day.

[Metastachydium]

and dorukan's lirian's, and girard's where all about the same size

In actual fact, Dorukan's was specifically called out as being the largest. Not that it matters much now; Elan made sure there remained precious few possible eyewitnesses to its growth when he tore it wide open.

[BloodSquirrel]

So I was thinking- this strip kind of debunks one of the common speculations regarding why the gates' defenses were set up the way they were. People have been suggesting that the gates might need to be accessed occasionally for maintenance, but Serini seems to indicate here that she has never seen the need to go back and check on the gate. There was never any direct evidence for the idea in the first place, although it did seem plausible on the surface.

But, really, is it? You'd think if the gates would need eventual reinforcement there would be more apparent concern over that. At least if the Scribblers were aware of it. But instead we've now gotten a direct indication that this isn't the case.

[Provengreil]

So I was thinking- this strip kind of debunks one of the common speculations regarding why the gates' defenses were set up the way they were. People have been suggesting that the gates might need to be accessed occasionally for maintenance, but Serini seems to indicate here that she has never seen the need to go back and check on the gate. There was never any direct evidence for the idea in the first place, although it did seem plausible on the surface.

But, really, is it? You'd think if the gates would need eventual reinforcement there would be more apparent concern over that. At least if the Scribblers were aware of it. But instead we've now gotten a direct indication that this isn't the case.

I don't recall much suggestion that the gates themselves needed maintenance, just their defenses.

Lirian would have needed to attend to the ents but the rest didn't need to do anything like that. Sure enough, two of them didn't: Accessing Girard's gate required tearing out a wall(a secret door no one saw is admittedly plausible though), and Serini only still has access because the tattoos are permanent. In Soon's case it was likely more of a conscious choice to keep it openly visible, which is in line with how most paladins would think with a charge to protect it.

With this line of thinking, Dorukan is really the only standout for keeping his gate in the open. Unless the seal needed recasting every now and again a la cloister (plausible, but wholly unsupported and IMO unlikely), it's just more of his arrogance shining through. He could have sealed it deeper but chose not to, relying instead on his own raw power.

[BloodSquirrel]

I don't recall much suggestion that the gates themselves needed maintenance, just their defenses.

Lirian would have needed to attend to the ents but the rest didn't need to do anything like that. Sure enough, two of them didn't: Accessing Girard's gate required tearing out a wall(a secret door no one saw is admittedly plausible though), and Serini only still has access because the tattoos are permanent. In Soon's case it was likely more of a conscious choice to keep it openly visible, which is in line with how most paladins would think with a charge to protect it.

With this line of thinking, Dorukan is really the only standout for keeping his gate in the open. Unless the seal needed recasting every now and again a la cloister (plausible, but wholly unsupported and IMO unlikely), it's just more of his arrogance shining through. He could have sealed it deeper but chose not to, relying instead on his own raw power.

It was given as a reason not to just have the gate completely sealed away in a room with no entrances or exits (ie, why Serini even has a portal that leads to it).

[Provengreil]

It was given as a reason not to just have the gate completely sealed away in a room with no entrances or exits (ie, why Serini even has a portal that leads to it).

Ah. I always put that down to rules baked into the setting: It's a self aware adventure universe, there MUST be a way for someone to complete the dungeon and access the gate, implausible as it might be.

We've had multiple plot-relevant events and even an entire arc where the villain (Tarquin) functioned on that self awareness.

[BloodSquirrel]

Ah. I always put that down to rules baked into the setting: It's a self aware adventure universe, there MUST be a way for someone to complete the dungeon and access the gate, implausible as it might be.

We've had multiple plot-relevant events and even an entire arc where the villain (Tarquin) functioned on that self awareness.

I don't think it was ever really much of an issue for the other gates- Serini was the only one who went out of her way to ensure that there was a mechanic to allow access to her gate, and I've always found it to be perfectly in-character for her defenses to be more clever than strictly logical. The others were more of a case of "If you've gotten this far, a few feet of solid stone isn't going to stop you".

[Mic_128]

Ah. I always put that down to rules baked into the setting: It's a self aware adventure universe, there MUST be a way for someone to complete the dungeon and access the gate, implausible as it might be.

Going from the last comic, it's also something to stop divination spells telling people "Go to this spot and start digging straight down" or other more 'brute force' methods when they ask something like "How do I get to this dungeon?"

[gbaji]

Going from the last comic, it's also something to stop divination spells telling people "Go to this spot and start digging straight down" or other more 'brute force' methods when they ask something like "How do I get to this dungeon?"

That was my impression as well. And that also somewhat ties into the whole "self aware plot" stuff (which, frankly, fantasy divination type stuff thrives on). Such things (including Oracles as well), instead of being straightfoward like "here's the exact coordinates", will say stuff like "here's the things you need to do, bypass, overcome, etc, to find what you seek". It's very narrative driven. But yeah. More or less exactly how a GM might run some sort of divination within an actual game.

We might even further speculate (and again applly the "self aware" bits here), that if you *don't* put some sort of achievable set of obstacles in front of something like this, but just hide it somewhere, then divinations will just give coordinates. But if you do put it at the end of a bunch of dungeons, or deep in your own dungeon behind a glyph, or hidden by illusions in the desert, or guarded by the denizens of the forest, or protected by the Saphire Guard, or whatever, then that's all a divination will ever reveal. And that, effectively, allows you to control the means by which anyone may find/access what you are trying to protect.

[Hopeless]

Is it possible that each of the other gates was interlinked until Soon's gate was broken and what is being seen on that city is the cumulation of all three gates so far destroyed?

Then there's the Draketooth gate that last seen looks out over what appears to be a body of water and its located on their side in the middle of a desert.

A handy resource if Draketooth knew how to access it without letting the Snarl get through.

However I was wondering that world we saw is their own and the reveal is that the Snarl is locked up inside their world and breaking that last gate merely returns the populace to their true world thats been altered to imprison the Snarl with those portals looking out over their world rather than an entirely different world dated from a previous era?

I'm just wondering if that temporal stasis might be a bit more important than anyone realises with Serina and the Order unaware the Gods used something similar on the Snarl?

[brian 333]

"Where is Girard's gate?"
"Between Girard's butt cheeks."

I often wonder if two nearby hills were named 'Girard's Buttcheeks' by Girard specifically so this would be a true, misleading, and very annoying answer to divination attempts.

[ZhonLord]

"Where is Girard's gate?"
"Between Girard's butt cheeks."

I often wonder if two nearby hills were named 'Girard's Buttcheeks' by Girard specifically so this would be a true, misleading, and very annoying answer to divination attempts.

The center of the gate is also directly between the butt cheeks of his statue in XY coordinates - it's just a good ways downward on the Z axis.

[Peelee]

"Where is Girard's gate?"
"Between Girard's butt cheeks."

I often wonder if two nearby hills were named 'Girard's Buttcheeks' by Girard specifically so this would be a true, misleading, and very annoying answer to divination attempts.

Why? It was already answered as "in the desert (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html)".

[bunsen_h]

It was given as a reason not to just have the gate completely sealed away in a room with no entrances or exits (ie, why Serini even has a portal that leads to it).

When I put a gadget I've built into a sealed container, I prefer to do it in such a way that it can be opened up again with the proper tools. I have enough experience with things that "can't go wrong" that I assume that I may still need to go in there for some reason which I haven't figured out in advance. In the case of the gates, one reason to try to permit access by the "right people" is to permit the gate's destruction if that seems to be preferable to its being taken by the "wrong people". That made sense for any of the gates so long as (most of) the rest of them were intact.


Why? It was already answered as "in the desert (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html)".

There's no particular reason not to add as much confusion as possible, to counter more advanced forms of divination. Especially if it adds to the butt humour in the world, or so some people would have it.

[whitehelm]

In actual fact, Dorukan's was specifically called out as being the largest. Not that it matters much now; Elan made sure there remained precious few possible eyewitnesses to its growth when he tore it wide open.

We've also seen Dorukan's gate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html), it's about 4 times the size of Xykon and Redcloak. Lirian's was only about the same size as them (seen in SoD). We didn't see Girard's gate in full but the rift afterwards is about 3 times the size of everyone.

[Mic_128]

"Where is Girard's gate?"
"Between Girard's butt cheeks."

I often wonder if two nearby hills were named 'Girard's Buttcheeks' by Girard specifically so this would be a true, misleading, and very annoying answer to divination attempts.

Keep in mind the exact phrasing was "Where is Girard's rift?"




Then there's the Draketooth gate that last seen looks out over what appears to be a body of water and its located on their side in the middle of a desert.

However I was wondering that world we saw is their own and the reveal is that the Snarl is locked up inside their world and breaking that last gate merely returns the populace to their true world thats been altered to imprison the Snarl with those portals looking out over their world rather than an entirely different world dated from a previous era?



That feels overly complex. We have been told from a number of sources that the planet itself is the prison, but it's more like a dimensional lock, trapping the snarl. It's not hanging out on an island in the stickworld, just chilling.

[Bacon Elemental]

Keep in mind the exact phrasing was "Where is Girard's rift?"


Been reading since 2010 and them trying to interrogate the mummy was already a fave panel and I never quite got the butt joke before now hah

[F.Harr]

Why is he like this? It's funny. :)