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Storm Bringer
2007-12-05, 11:09 AM
Is it me, or are genuine, outright evil dwarves a real rarity in campgain settings? Off hand, I can think of a grand total of two major settings that have evil dwaves, niether of them part of DND:

1) Warhammers chaos dwarves, with a sumerian theme (and hats as big as they are)

and

2) Guild Wars, where the xenophobic dwarves form the mook brigades in the games winterland.

in every other well known setting i can name, the dwarven culture is always a paragon of lawful good behavior. I struggle to think of any dwarven culture that is evil in the way drow are evil. There is the duergar, but they appear to be unfailingly self centered netural.

hell, i can't even think of a single memorable evil dwarf, let along a culture.


what is it about dwarveness that makes them so infallibly good alinged?

SoD
2007-12-05, 11:10 AM
It's some sort of conspiricy! They slip something into the Ale, I tell you...THE ALE!!!!!

Keld Denar
2007-12-05, 11:12 AM
Ummmm...core D&D has both Derro and Duergar. Derro tend to be very chaotic and almost exclusively evil. Their more powerful cousins, duergar, tend more toward law, forming a rather mock dwarven culture similar to drow. Fear a pre-combat enlarged deurgar strike team suddenly coming out of invisibility around you, hitting you from all sides, properly reinforced by a duergar battle-cleric. Their racial spell-like abilities put drow to shame as far as combat usefulness.

I dunno about any other settings, but both of these races are pretty core to D&D, as far back as 1st or 2nd edition.

-Cor-
2007-12-05, 11:13 AM
what is it about dwarveness that makes them so infallibly good alinged?

Work ethic?

Obsessive compulsive stoicism?

Santa Claus Beards?

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-05, 11:13 AM
See Duergar (AKA Gray Dwarves)

For literature involving them, see Streams of Silver and other Drizzt novels. They are typically found enslaved to or working for more powerful evil stuff.

hobbitguy1420
2007-12-05, 11:21 AM
I think it may be because, in the literature the archetypal dwarf was drawn from (Lord of the Rings and its ilk) the Dwarves are part of the League of Really Good Guys trying to stop That One Bad Guy And His Minions. There are exceptions, even within associated literature (there're nasty dwarves in the Silmarillion, for example), but they tend to be the exception, rather than the rule.

'Sides, if the culture were evil, the Dwarves wouldn't be as viable as a player race (as the game seems to have been built with the assumption that most parties will be good or neutral).

Ralfarius
2007-12-05, 11:27 AM
Traditional Scandinavian mythology has dwarves as not necessarily evil, but very vindictive and often shady individuals. They craft all the best weapons and other items, live underground, and collect wealth. However, cross one and you'll have a curse on you that'll end with your entire family killing each other down to the last generation.

Also, Dueregar and Derro. They're extremely prominent in any setting with an Underdark (i.e. where all the evil humanoids live).

Swordguy
2007-12-05, 11:27 AM
Amusingly, before Tolkein, Dwarves in literature were almost unfailingly evil - or at least heavily neutral greedy (Snow White being a major, major exception). See the the Ring Cycle for more detail.

Toliudar
2007-12-05, 11:29 AM
I'd also refer you to the Scarred Lands setting, and the enslaving-and-warmaking Charduni dwarves.

Evil dwarves have a VERY long folkloric tradition, going back (at least) to Alberich in the Norse/Wagnerian Siegfried saga. In D&D terms, the dark side of all dwarves is represented by Laduguer, the god of greed, gold-lust and other things that make you snigger and rub your hands together.

Morty
2007-12-05, 11:40 AM
The best way is to throw the racial alignments out of the window and never think about them again. Seriously, alignment system is preety bad when applied to individuals, but when it's applied to whole races it's ridiculous. After getting rid of it, DM can actually make dwarven societies and individuals belivable.
As for why dwarves are LG, I have no idea. Especially since dwarven stereotypes tend to present them like worst kind of either LN or CN.

Larrin
2007-12-05, 11:48 AM
In computer game-land both Baldurs gate 2 and neverwinter nights 1 had evil dwarves, the BG2 one was a blood thirsty, wench bottom slapping, ale drinking murderer, very dwarfy, the NWN1 one was kind of not really a dwarflike evil dwarf.

RA salvatore has a nicely evil dwarf, Athrogate, that shows up in the sellword trilogy.

Evil dwarves are bawdy drunkards that kill things first and never even ask questions.

Wraithy
2007-12-05, 11:50 AM
Dwarves are one of the major good aligned races in the game, like elves. unlike elves however, they have far fewer people who play them.
Dwarven characters tend to either be archetypal (sorry about the spellig) clerics of *insert dwarven patron deity here*, or characters that go against the grain, eg: the many dwarven rogues that can be found if you look hard enough, this type of character is generally made quite lovable to make up for their non-traditional proffession (so basically you get a halfling dwarf).
So in the end you get the people who want to play a proper traditional dwarf, and the people who think they are being different by playing dwarven halflings, leaving very few people who play as dwarves left over to occupy all of the remaining dwarven characters that could be played.
In the end, evil dwarves have to fight over miniscule table scaps with all of the unmentioned dwarf characters, the odds just aren't in their favour.

Sleet
2007-12-05, 11:54 AM
Dragonlance has a couple of evil dwarf subraces, the... uh... Klar, I think is the name of one, and there are at least one or two others.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-05, 11:58 AM
It's some sort of conspiricy! They slip something into the Ale, I tell you...THE ALE!!!!!
Yeah, more alcohol :smallwink:
The bastards are usually too drunk to think about being evil!

Technically, there's very few evil elves other than drows, also. And evil halflings or gnomes? Unheard of (I really scared my party with an evil assassin halflling npc once.... lol)

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-05, 11:59 AM
There's always Jerren for evil halflings. Those + Vashar = Evil races full of win.

Alex12
2007-12-05, 12:01 PM
The best way is to throw the racial alignments out of the window and never think about them again. Seriously, alignment system is preety bad when applied to individuals, but when it's applied to whole races it's ridiculous. After getting rid of it, DM can actually make dwarven societies and individuals belivable.
As for why dwarves are LG, I have no idea. Especially since dwarven stereotypes tend to present them like worst kind of either LN or CN.

We just play that culture can nurture evil over good, but the ultimate choice is up to the individual.
On a side note, mindless undead should be TN (as we play), and sentient undead have as much choice as any living being of the same intelligence. NEGATIVE ENERGY ISN'T EVIL, DAMMIT!

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-05, 12:03 PM
According to the PHB, it is.

Toliudar
2007-12-05, 12:04 PM
Evil halflings? How about the Dark Sun setting (shudder).

Closet_Skeleton
2007-12-05, 12:07 PM
Evil dwarves have a VERY long folkloric tradition, going back (at least) to Alberich in the Norse/Wagnerian Siegfried saga. In D&D terms, the dark side of all dwarves is represented by Laduguer, the god of greed, gold-lust and other things that make you snigger and rub your hands together.

Alberich as an evil Dwarf was invented by Richard Wagner in 1848. He isn't even in the Volsung Saga.

Alex12
2007-12-05, 12:07 PM
According to the PHB, it is.

Perhaps I should rephrase that. Negative energy shouldn't be evil. It's just a form of energy that happens to animate certain types of creatures and be harmful to other kinds.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-05, 12:09 PM
Agreed on that. Negative energy SHOULDN'T be evil, no other energy gets that distinction, and for a reason.

Swooper
2007-12-05, 12:15 PM
Dwarves are one of the major good aligned races in the game, like elves. unlike elves however, they have far fewer people who play them.
I beg to differ - I remember taking part in very, very few games that had no dwarf PC (and occasionally we've had two), but elves are much rarer in my group. And then, it's usually me playing the elf. Of course, that might not be the norm, but that's what I'm used to.

On the alignment of dwarves, I've always seen them as the LN types as a whole rather than LG. Individuals, of course, tend to be anything from LG to TN, but as a norm they're LN.

Evil dwarves exist, as others have pointed out, but both Duergar and Derro are really underused most of the time because they live very deep underground, or in the Underdark if the setting has one. And players don't go there very often.

Now I must put a duergar villain in my next campaign... :smallamused:

Mordokai
2007-12-05, 12:20 PM
http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg2/encounters/npcs/korgan/korgan.jpg

Herein be spoilers. (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Korgan_Bloodaxe)

'Nuff said.

Toliudar
2007-12-05, 12:21 PM
Alberich as an evil Dwarf was invented by Richard Wagner in 1848. He isn't even in the Volsung Saga.

Thanks, CS! I learn new things every day.

Inyssius Tor
2007-12-05, 12:24 PM
Perhaps I should rephrase that. Negative energy shouldn't be evil. It's just a form of energy that happens to animate certain types of creatures and be harmful to other kinds.

Ah, I love the Tome of Necromancy (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=684). It's just so cool.


As for evil dwarves: hm. Are there any actual options for the derro or duergar--like the kuo-toa stuff in the MMV? Because it seems like an evil race of dwarves, as the actual villains instead of just short mooks for the real villains, would be pretty awesome if it had any details.

....
2007-12-05, 12:24 PM
Anyone else think that the Duregar are GIANT dwarves?

Just stop a moment and think about it.

Giant dwarves.

Giant invisible dwarves.

InfiniteMiller
2007-12-05, 12:29 PM
Dark Iron dwarves from Warcraft are evil. Enemies to both the Alliance and Horde. And the world around them generally.

BRC
2007-12-05, 12:30 PM
Dark Iron dwarves from Warcraft are evil. Enemies to both the Alliance and Horde. And the world around them generally.

ACtually, though they have been evil for awhile, they are enslaved by ragnaros.

Inyssius Tor
2007-12-05, 12:36 PM
ACtually, though they have been evil for awhile, they are enslaved by ragnaros.

Y'see that? Short mooks, I tell ya!

Arioch
2007-12-05, 12:42 PM
If dwarves were evil, the trees would get them.

While we're on the subject of dwarf stereotypes, why are dwarves always Scottish (or what directors and game designers think is scottish)?
Humans have different accents, but all dwarves can understand one another perfectly, even if from different worlds, because they speak the same language with the same accent.

The Mormegil
2007-12-05, 12:55 PM
Well, for meself, I got started a setting with evil dwarves not long ago. They are lawful evil bastards with a great mind-controlling organization and enslaving as a life goal. They are cunning little evil bastards with occasionally the few barbarian evil bastards yelling all the way round...

Apart from that, never heard of Niebelheim dwarves? (Well, I'm not that sure they are called dwarves and not gnomes in english, but...)

kjones
2007-12-05, 01:12 PM
And evil halflings or gnomes? Unheard of (I really scared my party with an evil assassin halflling npc once.... lol)

Bah! Rank amateurs compared to the vampiric halflings with rogue levels that I pitted against my players. Hampires, I called them, and they learned to fear that word as they fear the Devil himself.

Though obviously ineffective at the grappling bit (a weakness easily overcome by the myriad ways in which they can immobilize people) nothing strikes terror into your heart like the pitter-patter of little feet... followed by fifty pounds dropping onto your neck from above and draining the hell out of you, since these guys had like a plus bajillion to Move Silently and so would never be heard unless they wanted to.

Swooper
2007-12-05, 02:12 PM
While we're on the subject of dwarf stereotypes, why are dwarves always Scottish (or what directors and game designers think is scottish)?
Humans have different accents, but all dwarves can understand one another perfectly, even if from different worlds, because they speak the same language with the same accent.
The dwarves in my CS (see link in sig) are communists that speak with a russian accent, not a scottish one :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2007-12-05, 02:16 PM
Y'see that? Short mooks, I tell ya!

Evil dwarves always seem relegated to mooks for some dumb reason.

Of course, this is the approximate quality of lore in Warcraft over the years...

- Warcraft 1: Story? What story.
- Warcraft 2: Okay, it's time for REVENGE!
- Warcraft 3: ...Wait, what? Okay, I guess these new orcs are kinda cool.
- World of Warcraft: Wait, what just happened to that whole partnership at the end of the last game?
- WoW: Burning Crusade: Story? Which story! We have a hundred of them at once with wildly varying versions of events!

Doresain
2007-12-05, 03:12 PM
and why do all dwarves half to be lawful miners that live underground? the dwarves for the campaign im trying to make are sailors and explorers, much like vikings...drinking, however, is still a major part of their culture

puppyavenger
2007-12-05, 03:17 PM
According to the PHB, it is.

Realy, the DMg says the nbegative energy plane is unaligned.

Maelstrom
2007-12-05, 04:18 PM
Mini-me? Does he qualify as an evil dwarf ;)

Studoku
2007-12-05, 04:25 PM
Mini-me? Does he qualify as an evil dwarf ;)
No, because he changed sides in the third film and is a halfling anyway.

Sequinox
2007-12-05, 04:27 PM
Yay guild wars! Oh, and it would just be wrong to have evil dwarves. Thats why they make the perfect villains! ... So yeah, I would like to see more evil dwarves.

Morty
2007-12-05, 05:02 PM
What really puzzles me is how are dwarves notorious drinkers if they live underground? Do they make alcohol from mushrooms?

Tormsskull
2007-12-05, 05:18 PM
Actually, dwarves were always thought to be evil, but then they unionized and protested the way they were being treated in fantasy cities all around Imagination Land. They even hired Cochran Graybeard, an imfamous dwarven lawyer. He got them an agreement that required that for every evil dwarf portrayed, 10 good dwarves had to also be portrayed. That is why the balance between good and evil is so staggering.

streakster
2007-12-05, 05:21 PM
You want evil dwarves? You should have played against the Enlightened, a race of psychic dwarves our DM sent against us.

"They strike in the light, when all dwarfs are blind!"

They were evil as all get-out.

Weirdlet
2007-12-05, 05:21 PM
If dwarves are viking-like...

then they should go out raiding, being fierce little knee-stabbers intent on owning above-ground and below, owing to too many sons and not enough land that all goes to the first born. From the fury of the underground, O Lord, deliver us! Not stalwart allies, but enemy conquerors!

Shades of Gray
2007-12-05, 05:44 PM
What really puzzles me is how are dwarves notorious drinkers if they live underground? Do they make alcohol from mushrooms?

I never thought of that...

well maybe they make beer out of lichen and fungus.

Or maybe they have *shudder* Soylent Beer!

Jerthanis
2007-12-05, 06:33 PM
I find it hard to imagine any society that openly celebrates evil not falling apart really quickly.

Still, I find it easy to imagine an evil dwarf individual. A dwarf who double-crosses his friends to steal the giant diamond for himself, because he knows those human patsies wouldn't appreciate its true value. A dwarf who delights in the thrill of battle, having been raised on dwarven war songs, not admiring his heroes for how dedicated to the clan they were, but admiring them for how good at killing they were.

There's more variation within one society than just a single archetype that every single individual falls under. Dwarves may tend toward duty to the clan and so forth, but that's really just because their living conditions are so arbitrarily harsh. (Who lives inside mountains anyway? There's plenty of room under the open sky! You can actually grow food there too!) An individual is whoever they are.

warmachine
2007-12-05, 07:09 PM
There are no evil dwarves because the writer that suggested it made the artistic director snap, who then beat the writer to death with a copy of the Ramayana shouting "Use some imagination! Use some imagination! Use some imagination!" He promptly crawled into an air duct and hasn't been seen since. The idea has not been mentioned again for fear he might return.

Alyosha
2007-12-05, 08:00 PM
It doesn't seem to me that an evil dwarf would be too hard to come by. I figure you can get an evil dwarf without looking to normally evil dwarf sub-races.

Examples:

A healthy respect and drive for the betterment and safety of one's community can turn into fascism.

A love of stone and metal work can turn into extraordinary greed.

Extreme fanaticism for a patron diety might turn into persecution of neighbors.

Even a dwarf who was wrongly exiled from his community might succumb to evil and seek revenge on his clan.

Jolly Steve
2007-12-06, 06:27 AM
In the Narnia stories, from memory, a lot of the Dwarves represent materialist/atheists (presumably because they're associated with earth and stone, they're metaphorically 'solid' and 'grounded'). Given the outlook of these stories, this makes them tend towards evil.

random11
2007-12-06, 06:41 AM
I think the problem is that in most campaigns, humans have multiple cultures, with a variety of alignments and motives within the cultures.
Non humans on the other hand, seem to have only a single culture each race.

For some reason many DMs feel an urge to create a new sub-race if they want a slightly different culture for non-humans.
And God forbid if you have a person within that culture that doesn't share the same alignment or ideals. It's such a rare event that automatically creates a famous NPC.

Vael Nir
2007-12-06, 07:09 AM
RA salvatore has a nicely evil dwarf, Athrogate, that shows up in the sellword trilogy.

Athrogate is awesome. Probably outfights Entreri with his glassteel Morningstars and speaks in rhyming couplets... genius.

The Duergar also come up a lot in the War of the Spider Queen books... as mercenaries and as a race to fear in their own respect.

AstralFire
2007-12-06, 09:36 AM
Athrogate is awesome. Probably outfights Entreri with his glassteel Morningstars and speaks in rhyming couplets... genius.

The Duergar also come up a lot in the War of the Spider Queen books... as mercenaries and as a race to fear in their own respect.

Athrogate was the only enjoyable part of those books for me.

Miraqariftsky
2007-12-06, 09:45 AM
Dragonlance has a couple of evil dwarf subraces, the... uh... Klar, I think is the name of one, and there are at least one or two others.

Hey! The Klar are mostly CN, if you're looking for evil dwarves in Krynn, you're lookig for the Daergar and the Theiwar, basically whole clans of assassin-dwarves and sorcerer-dwarves.

MrNexx
2007-12-07, 11:04 AM
What really puzzles me is how are dwarves notorious drinkers if they live underground? Do they make alcohol from mushrooms?

If it ferments, you can make liquor out of it; mushrooms will most definitely ferment, given proper conditions. The ones without good tolerances to messed-up alcohol died out a long time ago, leaving only those with a +1 to save per 3 1/2 points of Constitution.

Sleet
2007-12-07, 11:14 AM
...if you're looking for evil dwarves in Krynn, you're lookig for the Daergar and the Theiwar...

Yes! That's it. Thanks!

bosssmiley
2007-12-07, 11:35 AM
Hey! The Klar are mostly CN, if you're looking for evil dwarves in Krynn, you're lookig for the Daergar and the Theiwar, basically whole clans of assassin-dwarves and sorcerer-dwarves.

Daergar = Krynnish gibberish for Duergar
Theiwar = Krynnish gibberish for Derro
(source: "Dragonlance Adventures" 1st Ed. hardbound)

IIRC Krynn had 7 types (clans, cultures, w/e) of dwarves. And surface dwellers couldn't tell any one from any another without dissecting them ("that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it").

The interminable tedium of the Dwarfgate War - probably the single worst part of the "Legends" series. An epic battle that split a culture fought over someone forgetting their house keys. :smallannoyed:

(Raistlin/Fistandantilus: "...and then I'll wizardnuke a nearby mountain into a kewlzorz skull shape to make them shut up for a minute.")

Sleet
2007-12-07, 11:39 AM
An epic battle that split a culture fought over someone forgetting their house keys. :smallannoyed:

Well, that's not a great characterization. It was fought, as most real wars are, over access to limited resources (food and shelter, in this case).

Lolth
2007-12-07, 11:53 AM
Our online campaign (feel free to check us out!) is set in the Underdark, so we get a lot of use out of various sorts of evil Dwarves. Actually, most races are represented, and amusingly, it's the Humans who tend to be single culture, since the entrance to the setting is beneath a desert oasis.

And yes. Mushroom beer, lichen wines, etc.

For some reason, the surface race PCs coming to play bring their own booze with them.

littlechicory
2007-12-07, 02:07 PM
I think the problem is that in most campaigns, humans have multiple cultures, with a variety of alignments and motives within the cultures.
Non humans on the other hand, seem to have only a single culture each race.
For some reason many DMs feel an urge to create a new sub-race if they want a slightly different culture for non-humans.
And God forbid if you have a person within that culture that doesn't share the same alignment or ideals. It's such a rare event that automatically creates a famous NPC.

I agree with this comment so much. Why not make human subraces? *hesitates, considers that statement... pulls out the drawing board...*

Also, mind if I sig?

Storm Bringer
2007-12-07, 02:16 PM
I agree with this comment so much. Why not make human subraces? *hesitates, considers that statement... pulls out the drawing board...*

Also, mind if I sig?

mainly for the same reason that Redcloak can claim not be racist, dispite hating humans et al: that doing so would invole saying that 'humans with skin colour X have different abilities to humans with skin colour Y". People don't really see it as "safe" to do.

random11
2007-12-07, 02:30 PM
I agree with this comment so much. Why not make human subraces? *hesitates, considers that statement... pulls out the drawing board...*


Actually, there is one. The barbarian.
Take all the entire low-tech cultures, stick them with "dumb-strong-shouting-warrior" class.


Also, mind if I sig?


No prob.

Sleet
2007-12-07, 02:40 PM
I agree with this comment so much. Why not make human subraces?

Some settings do. I hate to keep pointing at Dragonlance, but its Races of Ansalon sourcebook details several.

littlechicory
2007-12-07, 02:40 PM
mainly for the same reason that Redcloak can claim not be racist, dispite hating humans et al: that doing so would invole saying that 'humans with skin colour X have different abilities to humans with skin colour Y". People don't really see it as "safe" to do.

But it's okay to do with nonhuman races?

EDIT:

Some settings do. I hate to keep pointing at Dragonlance, but its Races of Ansalon sourcebook details several.

Oooh. Will have to pirate acquire that one, then; I don't think my local gaming stores carry Dragonlance books other than the novels.

Ghal Marak
2007-12-07, 02:45 PM
I am planning to put evil dwarves in a homebrew world I've been building. Story goes, they used to be normal, and then a Demon Prince went and died in the middle of their lands. It corrupted them, and they proceed to build a vast skyscraper over where it died. They also killed off all the gnomes. I was going to homebrew them, but now I think I'll just use the standard dwarf statistics for 'em. :smallbiggrin: Man, are they going to be so evil.

Jayabalard
2007-12-07, 03:00 PM
And yes. Mushroom beer, lichen wines, etc.These always strike me as absurd. I'm don't believe that that mushrooms have enough in the way of sugars/starch to be a good base for an alchoholic beverages at all. You could use mushrooms to flavor a beer... it's just not going to be very useful as the base.

Mr.Moron
2007-12-07, 03:02 PM
These always strike me as absurd. I'm don't believe that that mushrooms have enough in the way of sugars to be a good base for an alchoholic beverages at all. You could use mushrooms to flavor a beer... just not as the base.

Well certainly not many mushrooms I can think of in our world. However I can't see it being something too far-fetched to be in a fantasy world. I think if we can accept giant lightning-breathing flying lizards, fermentable mushrooms aren't that much of a stretch.

daggaz
2007-12-07, 04:05 PM
Yeah, more alcohol :smallwink:
The bastards are usually too drunk to think about being evil!

Technically, there's very few evil elves other than drows, also. And evil halflings or gnomes? Unheard of (I really scared my party with an evil assassin halflling npc once.... lol)


Wha?? All my gnomes are evil. All of them.

And as for halflings, I have only one word. Belkar. Belkar the sexy shoeless god of war.

Wardog
2007-12-07, 08:01 PM
Wha?? All my gnomes are evil. All of them.

And as for halflings, I have only one word. Belkar. Belkar the sexy shoeless god of war.

And don't forget Monteron from Baldur's Gate.

Leon
2007-12-08, 10:08 AM
Why not make human subraces?

While being optional - IK has Human Subraces and they make the game much better than being "Generic Human #3" from Khador when you can play as a Kard, Kossite, Skirov, Umberan - each with its pluses and minuses

Kami2awa
2007-12-08, 11:56 AM
Traditional Scandinavian mythology has dwarves as not necessarily evil, but very vindictive and often shady individuals. They craft all the best weapons and other items, live underground, and collect wealth. However, cross one and you'll have a curse on you that'll end with your entire family killing each other down to the last generation.

Also, Dueregar and Derro. They're extremely prominent in any setting with an Underdark (i.e. where all the evil humanoids live).

Indeed, why no GOOD races in the Underdark?

littlechicory
2007-12-08, 12:46 PM
While being optional - IK has Human Subraces and they make the game much better than being "Generic Human #3" from Khador when you can play as a Kard, Kossite, Skirov, Umberan - each with its pluses and minuses

IK standing for which supplement now? D:

Attilargh
2007-12-08, 03:21 PM
Iron Kingdoms, the 3rd party campaign setting from Privateer Press.

Zenos
2007-12-08, 03:42 PM
I am planning to have a campaign where ALL the races are mostly Evil, with only a few Good and Neutral people.

Collin152
2007-12-08, 03:46 PM
... Derro are dwarves now?

TheElfLord
2007-12-08, 04:06 PM
Indeed, why no GOOD races in the Underdark?

Snerfneblin (sp) the underground gnomish race are good, aren't they?

Also in addition to aformentioned evil dwarf from BGII, Baldur's Gat I had an evil dwarf NPC who's name escapes me.

Leon
2007-12-09, 10:10 AM
Snerfneblin (sp) the underground gnomish race are good, aren't they?


Gnomes dont count

Attilargh
2007-12-09, 10:32 AM
Snerfneblin
Svirfneblin.

Dullyanna
2007-12-09, 10:55 AM
@TheElfLord: You're thinking of Kagain (Lawful Evil). That greedy old codger was actually pretty cool. He's lazy, apathetic, whiny, and only concerned with two things: Gold, and his own skin. Also, he has a CON score of 20 (Basically impossible in 2Ed), which gives him regeneration.

Edit:@ Leon: TheElfLord was referring to a good-aligned underdark race, not a good underdark dwarven race.

Dervag
2007-12-09, 10:57 AM
If dwarves were evil, the trees would get them.

While we're on the subject of dwarf stereotypes, why are dwarves always Scottish (or what directors and game designers think is scottish)?
Humans have different accents, but all dwarves can understand one another perfectly, even if from different worlds, because they speak the same language with the same accent.My dwarves are often German.

When you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. They're orderly, industrious, good at manufacturing,... hmm.

That actually suggests a natural type of evil dwarf: the Nazi Dwarf!

Karaswanton
2007-12-09, 11:02 AM
Eevil dwarves are present both in the Chronicles of Narnia, and in the Banned and the Banished series by some other guy whose name I can't remember.

Although, the dwarves in that are

possessed by the ultimate evil (who isn't actually all that evil at the ened of the series) so I'm not sure if one could consider them evil dwarves or not.

Also, they have two hearts, making them harder to kill.

Smeik
2007-12-09, 12:03 PM
You could say that the Deep Downers in Terry Pratchett's "Thud" would make a rather good example for an evil sub-race of Dwarves.

But if you say that, the Committee for Equal Heights will get you faster than you can say "lawn ornament".

Aquillion
2007-12-09, 12:42 PM
Indeed, why no GOOD races in the Underdark?Because, for the most part, the evil races kill them?

EvilJames
2007-12-09, 11:37 PM
... Derro are dwarves now?

They've always been dwarves:smallconfused:

Jayngfet
2007-12-10, 12:31 AM
still trying to homebrew my first campagne world, the dwarves would've split cuz the south didn't agree with thier king in his methods of war with the semi-egyption goblins over a gold rich mountain, with an international and civil war the army was strechted thin, the goblin pharoh gets an electrum crapper, dwarf king gets half a country, 60% evil, 30% neutral, 10% good, and mushrom beer with a psycadellic side effect

Duke Malagigi
2007-12-10, 01:59 AM
My dwarves are often German.

When you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. They're orderly, industrious, good at manufacturing,... hmm.

That actually suggests a natural type of evil dwarf: the Nazi Dwarf!

My thoughts exactly. With their Lawful Evil orc allies.

The Professor
2007-12-10, 02:06 AM
While I've never read the books... Aren't Narnian Dwarves evil?

#Raptor
2007-12-10, 09:17 AM
My dwarves are often German.

When you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. They're orderly, industrious, good at manufacturing,... hmm.

You forgot something.


Weird beards. :smallbiggrin:

No, really. Think about those prussian beards arround WW 1. I think they went out of style among with the piked helmet, but still... heck, there are even CLUBS that revolve arround wearing and growing prussian-style beards. I am serious. (http://www.jb-photodesign.de/neueSeiten/bart/bart.html)

But who would the Lawful Evil orc allies be? Italy i view as too chaotic, and japanese aren't big enough. Although japanese soldiers were often displayed with somewhat globlinoid features in american propaganda in WW 2.
But goblins are chaotic. Hobbos?

Btw... nazi dwarfes: http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip262.html (looks like you're not the only one who had this idea... :smallwink: )

Duke Malagigi
2007-12-10, 12:56 PM
For orcs, think of a combination of Celtic culture complete with poetry, music, visual arts and regular humanoid sacrifice with Spartan style militarism, social structure and Heliot-like slaves.