What settings/genres are ripe for a new successful RPG?

[Pauly]

What settings/genres are ripe for a new successful RPG? If you were pitching a new RPG and hoping for it to be broadly successful what is the genre or setting you would use?

Some setting such as Fantasy Medieval Europe are already dominated by existing games, others such as Homeric Greece are too niche to attract a large audience. Other settings/genres such as sci-fi and superheroes have dominant IPs in the market that mean that if a dominant IP releases their own RPG then half your player base will immediately drop your product and migrate to the giant’s product, plus you can never fully exploit the fanbase because they’re interested more in someone else’s IP than your game.

I Also recognize that good writing and interesting rules can make an otherwise small niche product into a major player, examples include Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun and Blades in the Dark. But good writing and good mechanics have more room to broadly succeed in a large niche than a small one.

Some settings/genres that I feel are available. Not sure how many of these would attract a wide enough audience to be viable.

Urban Fantasy.
The supernatural is real, but living hidden alongside the real world.
Example sources: Twilight, Practical Magic, Constantine, Bewitched, Dracula in the context of its original publication, Teen Wolf.
Issues/Problems. The WoD series exists, but doesn’t really integrate all the different types of supernaturals into one game so I think there is room for an Urban fantasy RPG that lets you play all the supernaturals together in one party.
A setting problem is how to explain why the supernaturals haven’t taken over the world already. VtM already uses the idea that they have taken over the world but regular people don’t know so the in game logic needs to be different to make it something other than a VtM knockoff.
Another problem is what do you cut out, there is so much source material it can be overwhelming.

Dieselpunk (for want of a better word)
1930s type pulp heroes. Heroes are better than normal people and gain advantage either by being more skilled than humanly possible, treating low level magic/superpowers as a trainable skill or more advanced technology than was possible.
Example Sources. The Shadow, The Rocketeer, The Phantom,, **** Tracy, Laputa Castle in the Sky, Porco Rosso. Doc Savage, Indiana Jones
Issues/problems: How to differentiate the game from a street level superheroes game.
Has the genre gone stale? It had a resurgence in the 90s and early 2000s but doesn’t seem to be generating that much interest now.

Pixies and fairies.
The PCs are 6” high in a world built for 6’ people.
Example sources: Tinkerbell, Terry Pratchett’s Wee Free Men, the Smurfs. All the folktales about fairies, pixies, brownies, Trollz, the Borrowers. Also a lot of the problems for small people navigating a big world are seen in Toy Story and the Rescuers.
Issues/problems. The potential settings have a lot of flexibility as does the magic level.
There needs to be a compelling in universe reason for the PCs to remain hidden. If there isn’t it turns into a JADR (just another D&D ripoff).
Is the pitch going to be compelling to male gamers? traditionally these stories are primarily aimed at girls. Being Tinkerbell doesn’t grab my attention much, but being a Wee Free Man would have me signed up in an instant, but would someone who wants to play Tinkerbell want to be in the same game as a WeeFree Man? Balancing the traditional examples with transgressive examples is a design concern.

Anthropomorphic animals.
Example Sources: Zootopia, Sing, WD’s Robin Hood, The Wind in the Willows.
Problem - Furries. How to you ring fence the game to keep the toxic element out? I was designing a system for anthropomorphic animals and bailed out because I am sane and don’t want my name to be associated with furries in any way, shape or form.

Cool Brittania (Setting)
A nostalgic and idealized version of London of the 1960s.
Example Sources: The Italian Job, The Avengers, Lady Penelope and Parker from the Thunderbirds, Austin Powers, The Boat that Rocked, The Saint. Movies like the Kingsman and Guy Ritchies’ the Man from UNCLE heavily draw on this era’s cool and stylish heroes.
Issues/problems. Genre is something up for grabs, something heistish or spyish. I can see the PCs having ‘cool’ as a resource similar to the way CoC has ‘sanity’ as a resource, and losing your cool being a bad thing.
I think it may benefit from a MIB or “Paul” type conceit where hidden aliens are providing inspiration for the cool and stylish advances and as a hook to interest the RPG crowd.

Cops with Cars.
Where the car is more than a transport device but it’s own character that contributes to the plot. NB the PCs don’t have to be cops, it’s just the most common job for the human characters this genre.
Example Sources: Starsky and Hutch, Magnum PI, Miami Vice, the Professionals, The Sweeney, Knight Rider, Dukes of Hazzard, the A Team, the Blues Brothers, Mad Max, early Fast and Furious movies, Bullitt, Vanishing Point.
Issues/problems: Getting an RPG audience interest involves either sci-fi or a Shadowrun type alternate world.
Making car chases an integral and fun part of game play. How to make PCs who are not the driver feel like they are contributing in those scenes.
How to incorporate bonuses the car gives the PCs into gameplay other than straight up car chases. Options include improving certain charisma/social interactions based on the car you have. Giving a tactical advantage to scenes based on how quickly you make it from the previous scene. Cars can be rated on things like size, top speed, acceleration, agility, reliability and depending on the road you’re going on the car may be better or worse. E.g. small agile cars are better in the inner city while large fast cars are better on the open highway. I think cars from the late 60s to early 80s have the most appeal.

Me and my dragon.
The PC and a dragon are a symbiotic pair.
Example sources. Dragon riders of Oern. How to train your Dragon. The blonde chick with a shoulder dragon from GoT.
Issues/Problems. If you go full sized dragons you end up with the Mechwarrior problem of having a detailed “big” combat as well as a detailed regular size combat system. If the dragons are big how do they contribute to social/indoors events.
Shoulder dragons may be cool, but people want to ride big full size dragons in combat.
You could combine both and have shoulder dragons who transform into full sized dragons but that seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too and I see that it would be easy to lose immersion if you don’t get it perfect.

Modern Super spies/super assassins/super heists.
Example sources: James Bond, Jason Bourne, Mission Impossible, later F&F movies, Oceans 11,12,13. John Wick.
Issues/problems. It’s been tried before and never took off. Why?
How do you stop turning into a parody of the genre?
Keeping up with technology.
World building is a big thing here, you want to create your own vibrant world, not a pale copy and paste of bits and pieces from the source material.

Pirates, Ninjas and Vikings.
The staples of Saturday morning kids TV mashed together in Paranoia/Toon style light hearted romp.
Issues/problems. Writing comedy is hard.

All these examples are things that would pulque my interest if a GM pitched them to me as a campaign to play. At least enough to look into the setting and rules if not get me signed up straight away. Maybe I’m just a weirdo with odd tastes.

[LibraryOgre]

Pixies and fairies.
The PCs are 6” high in a world built for 6’ people.
Example sources: Tinkerbell, Terry Pratchett’s Wee Free Men, the Smurfs. All the folktales about fairies, pixies, brownies, Trollz, the Borrowers. Also a lot of the problems for small people navigating a big world are seen in Toy Story and the Rescuers.
Issues/problems. The potential settings have a lot of flexibility as does the magic level.
There needs to be a compelling in universe reason for the PCs to remain hidden. If there isn’t it turns into a JADR (just another D&D ripoff).
Is the pitch going to be compelling to male gamers? traditionally these stories are primarily aimed at girls. Being Tinkerbell doesn’t grab my attention much, but being a Wee Free Man would have me signed up in an instant, but would someone who wants to play Tinkerbell want to be in the same game as a WeeFree Man? Balancing the traditional examples with transgressive examples is a design concern.

There's an old wargame based on this. (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/12547/Fairy-Meat-Core-Rules?affiliate_id=315505)

[stoutstien]

I'd pay good money for a flushed out coalpunk setting.

[Lord Raziere]

of the things you wish these are what I know already exist:

Urban Fantasy:
Dresden Files Rpg Exists

"Dieselpunk":
Spirit of the Century exists

Pixies and Fairies:
Fairies A roleplaying game exists

Anthropomorphic animals:
Jadeclaw, Iron Claw, Pugmire, Monarchies of Mau all exist

I'm pretty sure I've seen a lot of spy rpgs on drivethrurpg, and thing is a lot of your "modern" genre stuff you want is covered already by something like Spirit of the Century or any other rpg doing general modern stuff, because spy or cop on its own is simply too niche to attract people, because the way DnD works and especially indie rpgs that try to do more with less? is that something like a spy or a police officer or whatever is just one archetype, much like how a thief or a warrior is one archetype. similarly "me and my dragon" is more of a class or subclass than something you dedicate an entire rpg to, if that makes sense, because its one archetype in a general fantasy world for people to play in.

[Maat Mons]

How about an isekai game? You'd pick a starting class based on various modern vocations, like engineer, chemist, or doctor. Later, you'd be able to pick up fantasy classes, like mage, priest, or warrior. But you wouldn't be able to multiclass into any modern classes except what you started with, because there's no where to learn those skills.

[KorvinStarmast]

Pirates, Ninjas and Vikings.
The staples of Saturday morning kids TV mashed together in Paranoia/Toon style light hearted romp.
Issues/problems. Writing comedy is hard.

There is already a game called Pirates and Dragons. I have it. It is based on a d6 system.

[False God]

How about an isekai game? You'd pick a starting class based on various modern vocations, like engineer, chemist, or doctor. Later, you'd be able to pick up fantasy classes, like mage, priest, or warrior. But you wouldn't be able to multiclass into any modern classes except what you started with, because there's no where to learn those skills.

Fundamentally, any setting can be an isekai game. The basic premise is just "IRL you is thrown into make-believe setting". Adjust the various knobs from thereon out to your liking.

----
On the subject of settings, I'd like a setting where the meta is real. XP is real, classes are real, the rules are real and the setting is aware of these things and how they work.

Seconding earlier, I'd like a coalpunk setting, though Deadlands is pretty gosh-darned close IMO. But I do love me some Deadlands so, more of that please and thank you.


Cops with Cars.
Can I turn this up to 11 and ask for a Patlabor setting? Cops with mecha.


The WoD series exists, but doesn’t really integrate all the different types of supernaturals into one game so I think there is room for an Urban fantasy RPG that lets you play all the supernaturals together in one party.
A setting problem is how to explain why the supernaturals haven’t taken over the world already. VtM already uses the idea that they have taken over the world but regular people don’t know so the in game logic needs to be different to make it something other than a VtM knockoff.
The various supernaturals exist fine side-by-side. They can be played in parties together just fine. I've actually never played in a strict "one book only" WoD game.
Also no, WoD doesn't assume supernaturals rule the world from the shadows. Some do(or try), some don't, their range of success in it varies greatly, but they're certainly not presented as the magical illuminati.
IME, VtM gives a lot of leeway on presentation. Yes there's lore and specifics, but there's levels to that lore, but the basic setup is applicable to to any level of monster population so long as it all takes place behind the veil.


Problem - Furries. How to you ring fence the game to keep the toxic element out? I was designing a system for anthropomorphic animals and bailed out because I am sane and don’t want my name to be associated with furries in any way, shape or form.
Furries themselves aren't by their very being toxic. And it's not like there's a magic ring that keeps toxic players out of any other system. If all you know of furries are them being dirty yiffers, then you probably ought to learn more. If weirdos be doing weird stuff at the table, kick their sorry butts out. If a bunch of weirdos get together and want to do a game just for their specific weirdoness, who are we to stop them? It's not like most "generic sci/fantasy" games aren't full of a plethora of animal-people and there's nothing stopping furries from setting up a good or bad animal-people-only game.(Star Wars, Rokugan, D&D, WoD can all do this fairly easily.)

[LibraryOgre]

How about an isekai game? You'd pick a starting class based on various modern vocations, like engineer, chemist, or doctor. Later, you'd be able to pick up fantasy classes, like mage, priest, or warrior. But you wouldn't be able to multiclass into any modern classes except what you started with, because there's no where to learn those skills.


Fundamentally, any setting can be an isekai game. The basic premise is just "IRL you is thrown into make-believe setting". Adjust the various knobs from thereon out to your liking.


I think this is a bit reductive; yes, I can run a D&D game as an isekai, but how do we represent my theoretical PhD in Chemistry? Does my graduate work in English poetry apply (Christopher Stasheff's "Her Majesty's Wizard")Is it a case of "Modern Person moves their own body to Fantasy World", or is it "Modern Mind inhabiting Fantasy Body" (as in Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame)?

[NichG]

LitRPG 'the game is actually a game in character' style stuff has been growing in popularity, either as a subgenre of isekai or as its own thing. I'm not sure it'd be to my tastes to actually play a tabletop game that's explicitly like this. Similarly (but for similar reasons also sort of eeh for me), a TTRPG about the MMO side of an in-setting MMORPG, played completely straight - no 'the MMO is actually real', 'players are locked into a death game in the MMO', etc stuff, just a way to emulate normal people playing a normal (if fantastically overbudgeted perhaps) MMO using a tabletop format. I probably wouldn't want to write or play either of these things, but they might have a niche...

Space-based sci-fi and its many subgenres are notably absent from the OP's list. While space opera has been done quite a bit as well as large-scale space military stuff, maybe something more focused like planetary colonization, xeno-archaeology, scientific expedition/exploration, or even hard sci-fi might have possibilities. Sci-fi seems to be a harder sell than fantasy though, more difficult for people to broadly just jump into...

Given the AI boom, one could do an AI-punk setting - not Asimovian agentic-but-rule-obeying AI, but stuff where the technologies of prediction, statistical inference, model construction, skill capture through data, feedback control, automatic generation of media, etc have been fully integrated into the tech of the society. Black Mirror as an RPG?

[Lord Raziere]

On the subject of settings, I'd like a setting where the meta is real. XP is real, classes are real, the rules are real and the setting is aware of these things and how they work.


could be interesting as long as it doesn't fall into a litrpg/isekai trap where the leveling system doesn't seem to change anything about the society of the world or just seems to exist to be exploited to make the protagonist powerful.

like.....you'd have to consider how people have lived with a system like this since the dawn of time. they probably would not see the whole leveling system in the same light as we do- videogames don't exist to them, this thing would be apart of their lives all around them, influencing everything they do. but also? it would depend a lot of specific details of the system to really make it work, for example: how do you get a class? are born with a class? do you acquire it? are there classes for every single profession? can you multiclass or change class? if people are born with their class, what if someone doesn't like their class they are born with? things like that will change a lot about how the world's society works and how people perceive it. you'd have to ask what specific direction you'd want to go with making the meta apart of it.

[Hrugner]

There is a tendency for isekai settings to transform magic around the science that's been brought back from modern times. It may not need an entire system, but retheming classes and power origins around technological influence on magic could be more effort than simply making a new game. You could need a robust spy vs. spy type system the hooked into technological advancement based on how open you were with your knowledge and how others used it.

I'm not aware of any systems that take a serious look at player influence on the game's themes and setting, usually that's handled by GM guidelines rather than player powers. It could be interesting.

[animorte]

If you know some equine lovers, Tails of Equestria exists.

[Pauly]

Re: existing games in the genres. I know games exist in these genres. My point is that there’s nothing compelling about them that makes me think they could preclude a well written game with new and interesting rules becoming popular. WoD had the urban fantasy slice locked up hard in the 90s and early 2000s but I don’t see it as the 800 pound gorilla anymore.

Re: ‘Single archetype’. Firstly I mainly play skill based games where archetypes either don’t exist or can be built by the player. Secondly there have been long running successful ‘single archetype’ games in the past such as Mechwarrior or Twilight 2000, so providing you can have sufficient variety of skills and equipment within the archetype it isn’t limiting.

Re Coalpunk: Space 1889 does it pretty well perfectly IMO.

Re Space Colonization. I love the idea. Survival computer games are a big thing. Lots of rooms for expansions with different types of worlds too. It would be nice to have a space game where combat isn’t a major concern, at least in the initial release.

Re Patlabor. Haven’t seen it, but it seems to be very similar to Dominion Tank Police. I was thinking more of RL cars because a lot of people have emotional attachments to them and there are a wide range of vehicles from hotwheels/matchbox/tomica to use as minis in game. As long as the vehicles are significantly different to each other, are useful for getting to the scene and useful for chases I suppose it doesn’t really matter what type of vehicle it is. What I think would make the genre different would be that the vehicle is a cool mode of transport with benefits, not a primary means of combat and most of the in world combat happens when the occupants get out.
[edit to add: In terms of anime, I think the closest to what I am referring to is Lupin the III even if that is more crooks with cars than cops with cars].

Re Isekai. As previously pointed out I think the main problem is not so much character creation, but what happens once the character is in world. Maybe if you allow the PCs to alter the rules of the game, explained in universe as exploiting the programming or by using their previous life skills, that could make it novel. If you think it sucks that fighters can’t fly you combine this with that and hey presto your fighter can fly, but now every other fighter can either fly or learn to fly. Obviously this would have to take a non trivial amount of resources.

[Pauly]

I think this is a bit reductive; yes, I can run a D&D game as an isekai, but how do we represent my theoretical PhD in Chemistry? Does my graduate work in English poetry apply (Christopher Stasheff's "Her Majesty's Wizard")Is it a case of "Modern Person moves their own body to Fantasy World", or is it "Modern Mind inhabiting Fantasy Body" (as in Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame)?

Well if we go back to the grandaddy of isekai - A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court, - the other problem is how do you stop modern knowledge overpowering and overrunning the setting?

[LibraryOgre]

Well if we go back to the grandaddy of isekai - A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court, - the other problem is how do you stop modern knowledge overpowering and overrunning the setting?

Actually a major part of Guardians of the Flame; one of the characters is an engineering student, so they start turning out black powder (and later guncotton) weapons, which force their enemies to make an equivalent (in a far more expensive fashion)

[Mechalich]

Re: existing games in the genres. I know games exist in these genres. My point is that there’s nothing compelling about them that makes me think they could preclude a well written game with new and interesting rules becoming popular. WoD had the urban fantasy slice locked up hard in the 90s and early 2000s but I don’t see it as the 800 pound gorilla anymore.

The problem here is that 'well-written' and 'interesting rules' are not the criteria that determine popularity of gaming systems. Rather it is factors like early entry, high production values, effective marketing, and resonance with the contemporary zeitgeist that matter the most. Early entry is still probably the most important, since even when a game publisher induces a massive disaster, like D&D 4e, the game that replaces is liable to simply replicate the functionality of the previous game, as happened with Pathfinder. Also, games in some sense never die. While the WoD no longer has the presence it once did, it is still most likely the single most popular urban fantasy game despite having existed broadly as a zombie production for almost twenty years.

The only real way to make a splash in the market is to tie a new game to a popular licensed IP. This, for example, allowed niche publisher Fantasy Flight Games to significantly expand by grabbing the Star Wars franchise, for example. New products, even from large publishers, rarely go anywhere. The recent type case being Starfinder, a highly publicized game, with high production values, from the second largest gaming company. Paizo put a huge amount of money behind it, targeted space fantasy (a very popular zone), and for all that managed to achieve maybe 0.5% market share.

[False God]

Well if we go back to the grandaddy of isekai - A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court, - the other problem is how do you stop modern knowledge overpowering and overrunning the setting?

Why do you need to?

Why can't the setting just change?

[Lord Raziere]

Why do you need to?

Why can't the setting just change?

Indeed.

putting such things into an isekai setting and....not doing anything with it is just normal fantasy. DnD already does that, artificers already can't change the tech level. fantasy is full of inventors whose inventions will never change the world because they're just there to be funny one-off tinkerers who make silly gadgets that blow up or fail. don't need a new system or anything for that.

[Pauly]

Why do you need to?

Why can't the setting just change?

There is no problem with changing the world, and in fact a primary assumption of the isekai format is that change is possible. The problem is immersion and believability. For example bringing in steam technology in King Arthur’s court handwaves an obscene amount of metallurgical development, development of precision tools and acquisition of unavailable resources (rubber).

Changing the setting is part of the core idea, but changing the setting should be hard work not a trivial jaunt.

[False God]

There is no problem with changing the world, and in fact a primary assumption of the isekai format is that change is possible. The problem is immersion and believability. For example bringing in steam technology in King Arthur’s court handwaves an obscene amount of metallurgical development, development of precision tools and acquisition of unavailable resources (rubber).

Changing the setting is part of the core idea, but changing the setting should be hard work not a trivial jaunt.

Sure I'm not arguing that. I think players underestimate just how much technological development comes between the sword and the tank, in large part because that's a lot of education to ya know, educate on.

But a setting being open to change is more important than the methodology that allows that change. D&D-style magic will bypass a lot of the technological development that would have been needed without it, you just need someone (the player) to think outside the settings box. But of course, the setting needs to allow that to happen first.

Most settings simply don't.

[Mechalich]

Sure I'm not arguing that. I think players underestimate just how much technological development comes between the sword and the tank, in large part because that's a lot of education to ya know, educate on.

But a setting being open to change is more important than the methodology that allows that change. D&D-style magic will bypass a lot of the technological development that would have been needed without it, you just need someone (the player) to think outside the settings box. But of course, the setting needs to allow that to happen first.

Most settings simply don't.

Publishers want to be able to utilize their settings across in-universe time. That means the setting must resist change. Medieval stasis, while in most cases ridiculous from a worldbuilding standpoint, is desirable from a publication one. Thios also increases flexibility. Settings that undergo significant change (which need not be technological) offer limited options. This is quite notable in the case of adapted epics, which are often only playable at specific points in time. The Wheel of Time, which was made in a d20 setting, is a pretty good example. It's basically playable during a roughly 10-year window.

The alternative, of trying to publish alongside a changing setting, mandates some level of metaplot, as the WoD did. The WoD, being nominally set in 'present day, present time' was obligated to update materials to adjust to real world events like wars, but this produced a hideous mess.

It's worth noting that the average isekai style light novel or webtoon is about breaking the setting, usually on the back of a cheat-y protagonist. That's fine single author fiction, but doesn't work in the framework of a TTRPG setting, which is supposed to be robust enough to produce a living world.

[Hrugner]

The world doesn't need to be static if you use the technology change as a part of leveling and challenge rating. You'd have to create base threats and progress paths for whatever technology was introduced, but that could be easier than a host of individual monsters. Rather than selling future supplements as an extension of the timeline, work sideways adding additional possible influences to the time that does happen. It's not like the published material of a game cares what the players do in that world. You probably need to throw in evidence of past time meddling to make the world seem lived in, or you need to make science magic, so that it decays when the isekai character disappears from the world, but it's a solvable problem.

[False God]

Publishers want to be able to utilize their settings across in-universe time. That means the setting must resist change. Medieval stasis, while in most cases ridiculous from a worldbuilding standpoint, is desirable from a publication one. Thios also increases flexibility. Settings that undergo significant change (which need not be technological) offer limited options. This is quite notable in the case of adapted epics, which are often only playable at specific points in time. The Wheel of Time, which was made in a d20 setting, is a pretty good example. It's basically playable during a roughly 10-year window.

The alternative, of trying to publish alongside a changing setting, mandates some level of metaplot, as the WoD did. The WoD, being nominally set in 'present day, present time' was obligated to update materials to adjust to real world events like wars, but this produced a hideous mess.
Okay? I'm not sure what your point is. The desire for money screws up good world-writing. Yeah I think we can all get behind that. Doesn't make it an argument against anything.


It's worth noting that the average isekai style light novel or webtoon is about breaking the setting, usually on the back of a cheat-y protagonist. That's fine single author fiction, but doesn't work in the framework of a TTRPG setting, which is supposed to be robust enough to produce a living world.
You do understand you aren't making an argument against anything I said right? Like, nothing in those lines says anything at all about how isekai doesn't work. Just that certain materials don't translate well into games. Uh yeah no duh some examples of literature don't translate well into video games. I could go off about how Sherlock Holmes or Bruce Wayne are OP protags, but that says nothing about the workableness of the detective or crime genre of tabletop gaming.

[Maat Mons]

I was actually figuring an isekai game wouldn't have a setting, per se. Instead, the cannon would be that there exists a multiverse so vast that every imaginable world exists. Every published adventure would detail its own, brand new world to break, disconnected from all others, save for the common lore about a mysterious force that keeps shuffling people between worlds.

[Ameraaaaaa]

Dieselpunk (for want of a better word)
1930s type pulp heroes. Heroes are better than normal people and gain advantage either by being more skilled than humanly possible, treating low level magic/superpowers as a trainable skill or more advanced technology than was possible.
Example Sources. The Shadow, The Rocketeer, The Phantom,, **** Tracy, Laputa Castle in the Sky, Porco Rosso. Doc Savage, Indiana Jones
Issues/problems: How to differentiate the game from a street level superheroes game.
Has the genre gone stale? It had a resurgence in the 90s and early 2000s but doesn’t seem to be generating that much interest now.



I can easily imagine such a game having 4 classes to represent the classical 3 hero types, action heroes, cunning heroes and science heroes.

A standard fighter class that is great in combat. Differentiated by fighting style and/or special weapons.
-good at fighting but not much else.

A skill monkey class that have the most skill points. Defined by what skills they sprnd the points on.
-is skill monkey

A science class that can invent solutions to problems given time. Specialized by their field of study.
-basically the prep time wizard meme but for real. Given tools and time can do anything.

And finally the gimmicks. Who are unique for their specific psychic/magic/superpowers. Like one guy could turn invisible and and guy's character can turn into any animal.
-one trick ponys that gotta utilise their one trick in clever ways to make the most use of them.

Example adventures might be stopping the arrival of a dark god or stopping the diamond from being stolen by a master thief.

I like this idea.

[Pauly]

I can easily imagine such a game having 4 classes to represent the classical 3 hero types, action heroes, cunning heroes and science heroes.

A standard fighter class that is great in combat. Differentiated by fighting style and/or special weapons.
-good at fighting but not much else.

A skill monkey class that have the most skill points. Defined by what skills they sprnd the points on.
-is skill monkey

A science class that can invent solutions to problems given time. Specialized by their field of study.
-basically the prep time wizard meme but for real. Given tools and time can do anything.

And finally the gimmicks. Who are unique for their specific psychic/magic/superpowers. Like one guy could turn invisible and and guy's character can turn into any animal.
-one trick ponys that gotta utilise their one trick in clever ways to make the most use of them.

Example adventures might be stopping the arrival of a dark god or stopping the diamond from being stolen by a master thief.

I like this idea.

To fit some example into the suggested classes.

Fighter: the Phantom. **** Tracy.

Skill Monkey - maybe better described as gentleman thief or gentleman detective in this era - Simon Templar (aka the Saint). The thin man.

The gimmick - the Shadow (who can cloud men’s minds)

Science guy - Doc Savage, the Rocketeer.

Although the heroes of this era tend to be very well rounded, so I think in character creation there should be a mechanism for rewarding breadth of skills over depth of skills. Hyper specialists like a D&D wizard or a D&D style low wis/int/cha fighter are generally the equivalent of NPCs in the source material.

[Ameraaaaaa]

To fit some example into the suggested classes.

Fighter: the Phantom. **** Tracy.

Skill Monkey - maybe better described as gentleman thief or gentleman detective in this era - Simon Templar (aka the Saint). The thin man.

The gimmick - the Shadow (who can cloud men’s minds)

Science guy - Doc Savage, the Rocketeer.

Although the heroes of this era tend to be very well rounded, so I think in character creation there should be a mechanism for rewarding breadth of skills over depth of skills. Hyper specialists like a D&D wizard or a D&D style low wis/int/cha fighter are generally the equivalent of NPCs in the source material.

The problem with generalist characters is that rpgs focusing on adventurers (like dnd or superheroes in general) are very much about niche protection. Plus it helps distinguish the cast. A 5 player group can have Johnny the master of the whip (fighter) Frank the wise cracking detective (the skill monkey) David the chemist (scientist) Sarah the mind reading dilettante and Jessica the invisible woman (both gimmicks) and all can contribute to the adventure.

Let's say they are investigating cult activity. Frank can do the bulk of investigating, Interrogating ect ect. While david can scan for fingerprints, while Jessica sneaks into guarded facilities to gather clues. Sarah can sense that somethings off about the residents and Johnny can deal with any cultists seeking to take them out in their sleep.

That's just one example.

[Pauly]

The problem with generalist characters is that rpgs focusing on adventurers (like dnd or superheroes in general) are very much about niche protection. Plus it helps distinguish the cast. A 5 player group can have Johnny the master of the whip (fighter) Frank the wise cracking detective (the skill monkey) David the chemist (scientist) Sarah the mind reading dilettante and Jessica the invisible woman (both gimmicks) and all can contribute to the adventure.

Let's say they are investigating cult activity. Frank can do the bulk of investigating, Interrogating ect ect. While david can scan for fingerprints, while Jessica sneaks into guarded facilities to gather clues. Sarah can sense that somethings off about the residents and Johnny can deal with any cultists seeking to take them out in their sleep.

That's just one example.

Maybe it’s because I’m a bit too close to the source material. What you say makes sense with regard to the difference between a single hero story and a party of RPGers. My expectation of the genre is that heroes should be highly capable in at least 2 or 3 areas rather than be locked into a niche.

[Ameraaaaaa]

Maybe it’s because I’m a bit too close to the source material. What you say makes sense with regard to the difference between a single hero story and a party of RPGers. My expectation of the genre is that heroes should be highly capable in at least 2 or 3 areas rather than be locked into a niche.

Sometimes genre expectations are sacrificed to the piller of good gameplay. I'm fine with that.

[Pauly]

Sometimes genre expectations are sacrificed to the piller of good gameplay. I'm fine with that.

Just thinking about the Shadow’s skills.
- Power to cloud men’s minds (overpowered stage hypnotism)
- expert pilot
- expert pistol shot
- high level boxer
- master of disguise
- break and enter specialist.
- competent lock pick
- organizer of a network of agents
- socialite (in his cover identity)
- psyops expert
Plus I’m sure I’m missing a few.
So yeah, that’s a full party’s worth of skills rolled up in one guy.

[Tanarii]

Sometimes genre expectations are sacrificed to the piller of good gameplay. I'm fine with that.
Highly specialized niche protection does not automatically equal good gameplay.

C.f. Shadowrun

[Ameraaaaaa]

Highly specialized niche protection does not automatically equal good gameplay.

C.f. Shadowrun

Fair enough. Shadow run is a mess.

[Quertus]

Hmmm… at the moment, I’m in the market for 2 RPGs: Isekai, and an excuse to play a good space combat simulator (of the “everyone has a ship or fleet” variety, not “we’re all crew aboard the same ship”).

Looking broader… I think that a Harry Potter RPG might do well.


How about an isekai game? You'd pick a starting class based on various modern vocations, like engineer, chemist, or doctor. Later, you'd be able to pick up fantasy classes, like mage, priest, or warrior. But you wouldn't be able to multiclass into any modern classes except what you started with, because there's no where to learn those skills.

I dunno, I think I could take levels in the “Couch Potato” class (among numerous others) in any genre. :smallamused:

Hmmm… to generalize this… each setting could have its own rules. Including supported classes and skills.

Each Isekai method (transferred bodily, reincarnated, shoved into a new body… any others?) could have their own rules.

Then you could run a D&D character bodily Isekai’d to modern Earth… or a Star Trek character reincarnated Isekai’d to Equestria… or even Sherlock Holmes Isekai’d in the body of a Transformer in Hogwarts.

Although Sherlock Holmes struggling to Detective Conan cases while trapped in an unfortunate body (“malfunctioning” Wand, someone’s familiar, whatever) actually sounds kinda fun…

(EDIT: yes, people most often think of Isekai as “themselves into fantastic world”; I intentionally chose examples to point out how the genre is much broader than that.)


Re Isekai. As previously pointed out I think the main problem is not so much character creation, but what happens once the character is in world. Maybe if you allow the PCs to alter the rules of the game, explained in universe as exploiting the programming or by using their previous life skills, that could make it novel. If you think it sucks that fighters can’t fly you combine this with that and hey presto your fighter can fly, but now every other fighter can either fly or learn to fly. Obviously this would have to take a non trivial amount of resources.

I’m really not getting why you think the Isekai’d characters need to be able to change the rules of the game in order for the action to be interesting.

[Tanarii]

Fair enough. Shadow run is a mess.
Specifically it's the "each person takes turns playing one mini game while everyone else goes and makes a sandwich" niche protection game play that's the biggest issue.

[NichG]

Oh, that reminds me, a dedicated cultivation/Xianxia RPG could easily be a thing.

[Lord Raziere]

Oh, that reminds me, a dedicated cultivation/Xianxia RPG could easily be a thing.

not gonna lie, it'd probably only rpg where a leveling system actually makes sense (yes I'm including Dnd in things where it doesn't), because the genre RUNs on explicit actual levels of enlightenment being a thing and the highest levels of enlightenment being like....actual omnipotence and such.

[Pauly]

I’m really not getting why you think the Isekai’d characters need to be able to change the rules of the game in order for the action to be interesting.

It’s about 2 things.
1) respecting genre tropes where the characters change the world they are in.
2) differentiating the game okay so it isn’t a JADR.


Fair enough. Shadow run is a mess.
But such an interesting and stylish mess..

[False God]

It’s about 2 things.
1) respecting genre tropes where the characters change the world they are in.
2) differentiating the game okay so it isn’t a JADR.

While I'm not sure what a JADR is, while changing the world is one of the tropes in some isekai, it does feel like there's a lot of hangup on that being the core idea of all isekai.

[MrStabby]

So I probably don't have the breadth of knowledge to really answer this, but I look forward to finding out what I have missed:

1) A Fairytale Horror game. Horror is poorly covered by a lot of RPGs. Things with more of a heroic fantasy bent just don't really work well. There is the missing visceral fear of real consequence on most actions, and a faint footstep heard means XP not "oh crap, we need to improvise an escape plan". And fairytales... because so many of them are badass and feature exeptional antagonists of great power and subtlety.

2) An old school D&D remake. XP comes from treasure, and the progression is through a heist type approach. Using the lessons learned from the past several decades of gaming, lets build that into a system where we care as much about avoiding combat as winning it.

3) An Excorcist game. Now kind of, you can do things like this with games like D&D or pathfinder. A nice monster of the week setup and a strong tradition of smashing down doors etc.. The issue is balance - with some classes being so much better against undead or demons and that kind of being their thing it would result in a lot of samey characters. Also, I would like a greater span of development and progression with less global strategic powers being in play. Strong elements of investigation, a little horror, quite a bit of combat...

[Pauly]

While I'm not sure what a JADR is, while changing the world is one of the tropes in some isekai, it does feel like there's a lot of hangup on that being the core idea of all isekai.

JADR = Just Another D&D Ripoff.

If all you’re doing with isekai is playing D&D but with a different back story then I don’t see why anyone wouldn't just play D&D instead.
But if you’re playing a game where you can alter the rules of the game, class features, setting etc. as a PC ability that occurs during gameplay then you’re playing something fundamentally different than a D&D clone.

I’m thinking about what is the unique and different gameplay experience a setting or genre can offer. Isekai broadly is either about reshaping the setting or being the chosen one accumulating a harem.

[Pauly]

Hmmm… at the moment, I’m in the market for 2 RPGs: Isekai, and an excuse to play a good space combat simulator (of the “everyone has a ship or fleet” variety, not “we’re all crew aboard the same ship”).
.

Have you tried adapting the Full Thrust wargame universe to an existing RPG? FT is probably the best space combat game out there and has an interesting fictional base. There was a conversion for making Traveller ships compatible with Full Thrust so if Traveller rocks your boat that may be up your alley.


So I probably don't have the breadth of knowledge to really answer this, but I look forward to finding out what I have missed:


3) An Excorcist game. Now kind of, you can do things like this with games like D&D or pathfinder. A nice monster of the week setup and a strong tradition of smashing down doors etc.. The issue is balance - with some classes being so much better against undead or demons and that kind of being their thing it would result in a lot of samey characters. Also, I would like a greater span of development and progression with less global strategic powers being in play. Strong elements of investigation, a little horror, quite a bit of combat...

Is this something Call of Cthulhu can handle? I know CoC is traditionally stronger on horror and lighter on combat, but the system seems quite capable of handling a higher mix of combat.

[Maat Mons]

I find Call of Cthulhu to be simultaneously too granular and not granular enough. Each time your skill goes up by one step, you get +1% chance of success, at most. That's too granular. Each time the difficulty of a task increases by one step, your odds of success are cut in half, or worse. That's not granular enough. Skill should take bigger steps, and difficulty should take smaller steps.

Also, your attributes are rolled randomly, and the number of points you can spend on skills is determined by your attributes, so you wind up some players in the same group having more skills than others... in a system where skills are pretty much everything. Really, they should have just given everyone a consistent number of points to work with at character creation.

[MrStabby]

Is this something Call of Cthulhu can handle? I know CoC is traditionally stronger on horror and lighter on combat, but the system seems quite capable of handling a higher mix of combat.

Maybe - its decades since I played CoC and even then I didn't really know what was happening! So whilst my experience doesn't jive with what I am looking for, it might just be the game I played rather than the system.

[False God]

JADR = Just Another D&D Ripoff.

If all you’re doing with isekai is playing D&D but with a different back story then I don’t see why anyone wouldn't just play D&D instead.
But if you’re playing a game where you can alter the rules of the game, class features, setting etc. as a PC ability that occurs during gameplay then you’re playing something fundamentally different than a D&D clone.

I’m thinking about what is the unique and different gameplay experience a setting or genre can offer. Isekai broadly is either about reshaping the setting or being the chosen one accumulating a harem.

I think you're fundamentally missing the point of what an isekai is.

There's value in recognizing the simplicity of the concept: It's you in another world. Altering the rules, changing the world, being the chosen one, accumulating a harem, the important point is your choices. How do you respond to your new life?

Pretty much everything can be emulated to a moderate level of success in D&D. I don't think "If it's not XYZ, why not just do it in D&D?" is a fair argument against anything at all.

[NichG]

Another form of isekai is the explicit metaknowledge type of isekai - you enter a story or plot you have prior knowledge of, and can use that to achieve a different outcome (often despite a lack of direct power in that subgenre).

[Tanarii]

2) An old school D&D remake. XP comes from treasure, and the progression is through a heist type approach. Using the lessons learned from the past several decades of gaming, let's build that into a system where we care as much about avoiding combat as winning it.
This one would be really cool if it wasn't just a D&D clone for classes. Ie not 4 classes of warrior guy, offensive spell guy, healer/warrior guy, and sneaky/trap lock guy.

Of course, this has been attempted many many times in a variety of formats, to one degree of success or another. For some very not-D&D-clone attempts: Dungeon World, Torchbearer, Blades in the Dark, and Forbidden Lands.

[Pauly]

I think you're fundamentally missing the point of what an isekai is.
.

I’ve been living in Japan for the last 10 years, I doubt I miss the point of Isekai. Isekai is a cry for help against the soul crushing conformity demanded of the Japanese school system and low level salaryman life.



There's value in recognizing the simplicity of the concept: It's you in another world. Altering the rules, changing the world, being the chosen one, accumulating a harem, the important point is your choices. How do you respond to your new life?

Pretty much everything can be emulated to a moderate level of success in D&D. I don't think "If it's not XYZ, why not just do it in D&D?" is a fair argument against anything at all.

There are reasons why being able to change the world, regardless of the specific process of how it’s done, is a core element of Isekai. The reasons lie within Japanese culture, and I don’t think I am able to elaborate further without risking running afoul of the forum’s rules.

Isekai is responding to a desire to change the rules people are being forced to play by IRL.

[Satinavian]

There are reasons why being able to change the world, regardless of the specific process of how it’s done, is a core element of Isekai. I don't really agree.

Sure, power fantasies are common. But you don't need a special system to have a power fantasy nor the ability to change game rules. And yes, another common occurance is that modern knowledge or whatever relatively unimpressing abilities the character had is now suddenly appreciated, admired and opens many gates instead of disregarded as in the real world. But again, that is not really something to craft a system from nor does it require any rule-changing during play.

I mean, look at a couple of popular Isekais : Re:Zero, Konosuba, Ascendance of a bookworm, Vision of Escaflowne, Overlord, My second life as villainess, Shield Hero.

How would you design a system that would be a proper fit for all of them ? Are the similarities really something that lends itself to rules while the differences are where no rules are needed and GM fiat would work best?

And is there even a single example where the Isekaid character actively changing the rules of the world instead of using/exploting them is a prominent theme?

I wouldn't really want to use D&D for most of them. D&D is crappy with skills and knowledge (= things the character takes from his world), bad at crafting not combat related things (introducing/emulating real world convenience is also a common theme ) and its magic system is too specific to emulate all the setting dependent ones (which is most of them).


But i don't think a system particcularly for Isekai would work well or that "PCs changing the game rules" should be an important part for it.


The problem with generalist characters is that rpgs focusing on adventurers (like dnd or superheroes in general) are very much about niche protection. Plus it helps distinguish the cast. A 5 player group can have Johnny the master of the whip (fighter) Frank the wise cracking detective (the skill monkey) David the chemist (scientist) Sarah the mind reading dilettante and Jessica the invisible woman (both gimmicks) and all can contribute to the adventure.

Let's say they are investigating cult activity. Frank can do the bulk of investigating, Interrogating ect ect. While david can scan for fingerprints, while Jessica sneaks into guarded facilities to gather clues. Sarah can sense that somethings off about the residents and Johnny can deal with any cultists seeking to take them out in their sleep.

That's just one example.As seen in another thread, actually enforcing one-trick-ponies is one of the reasons so many people have a problem with PF2.

And that matches my experience. Over many systems played and many groups my observation is that most players want to have a character who has competence in secondary and tertiary abilities as well. They don't need to excel in the same way as in their primary thing, but should still be useful and competent.

[LibraryOgre]

I briefly worked on a "run an association football club" setting for Savage Worlds. I haven't gone back to it in about a year, though.

[False God]

I’ve been living in Japan for the last 10 years, I doubt I miss the point of Isekai. Isekai is a cry for help against the soul crushing conformity demanded of the Japanese school system and low level salaryman life.

There are reasons why being able to change the world, regardless of the specific process of how it’s done, is a core element of Isekai. The reasons lie within Japanese culture, and I don’t think I am able to elaborate further without risking running afoul of the forum’s rules.

Isekai is responding to a desire to change the rules people are being forced to play by IRL.

Ironically, your stance on the subject comes off as soul-crushingly conformist. "Isekai must be this or its not isekai." Which makes me entirely uninterested in continuing talking to you.

[Pauly]

I don't really agree.

Sure, power fantasies are common. But you don't need a special system to have a power fantasy nor the ability to change game rules. And yes, another common occurance is that modern knowledge or whatever relatively unimpressing abilities the character had is now suddenly appreciated, admired and opens many gates instead of disregarded as in the real world. But again, that is not really something to craft a system from nor does it require any rule-changing during play.

I mean, look at a couple of popular Isekais : Re:Zero, Konosuba, Ascendance of a bookworm, Vision of Escaflowne, Overlord, My second life as villainess, Shield Hero.

How would you design a system that would be a proper fit for all of them ? Are the similarities really something that lends itself to rules while the differences are where no rules are needed and GM fiat would work best?

And is there even a single example where the Isekaid character actively changing the rules of the world instead of using/exploting them is a prominent theme?

I wouldn't really want to use D&D for most of them. D&D is crappy with skills and knowledge (= things the character takes from his world), bad at crafting not combat related things (introducing/emulating real world convenience is also a common theme ) and its magic system is too specific to emulate all the setting dependent ones (which is most of them).


But i don't think a system particcularly for Isekai would work well or that "PCs changing the game rules" should be an important part for it.
.

Isekai isn’t a power fantasy. It is a fantasy about changing the norms of the world, or at the very least not being required to conform. In a traditional power fantasy power is acquired to be successful in the world.
D&D, as do most western RPGs, is responding to the power fantasy. Changing the world is not part of the game for the PCs, it’s the GM who creates and changes the world..
An isekai RPG is responding to a different fantasy, which is that the character(s) is an agent for changing the world.


Ironically, your stance on the subject comes off as soul-crushingly conformist. "Isekai must be this or its not isekai." Which makes me entirely uninterested in continuing talking to you.

Well you have your own soul crushingly conformist take on what isekai must be. However I am open to continued discussion to get closer to a true understanding of what the core appeal of an isekaii RPG would be and how to implement it. I must admit I find it difficult to reconcile the proposition thar players should be free to and capable of changing anything they don’t l8me about the game with being an agent of soul crushing conformity. So a further explanation in your part would be appreciated much more than simply declaring yourself the winner then picking up your bat and ball and going home.

My take on isekai is rooted in my experience of living in Japan for an extended time. My perspective is therefore biased and may well be missing what appeal, if any, isekai as a genre has outside of Japan.

[Ionathus]

Me and my dragon.
The PC and a dragon are a symbiotic pair.
Example sources. Dragon riders of Oern. How to train your Dragon. The blonde chick with a shoulder dragon from GoT.
Issues/Problems. If you go full sized dragons you end up with the Mechwarrior problem of having a detailed “big” combat as well as a detailed regular size combat system. If the dragons are big how do they contribute to social/indoors events.
Shoulder dragons may be cool, but people want to ride big full size dragons in combat.
You could combine both and have shoulder dragons who transform into full sized dragons but that seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too and I see that it would be easy to lose immersion if you don’t get it perfect.

This sounds fun as hell.

If you've got the group dynamic for it, you can take this a step further: you're allowed to play either a dragon or a human, and most players at the table will pair up. Dragons are massive powerhouses but have no precision and massive social disadvantages (at least with the setting's humanoids). Humans (or humanoids) are squishy but also able to use tech, repair gear, and go inside buildings.

You might say "why would anyone choose to play the humanoid?" and that's a fair point but I think you could set it up in either the mechanics or lore such that it's a rewarding experience either way. Maybe dragons are second-class citizens, maybe they simply don't care about minutiae and consider the humans their pets that "do all the busywork," maybe the dragons are keepers of ancient lore and butt heads with these short-lived idiot mistake monkeys constantly. Dragon-human interactions in D&D are already a wonderful opportunity to play with ego and social dynamics, so imagine building the whole game around that!

I'm having a ton of fun brainstorming the mechanics here. You could have "rider mode" where the pair is together, and "separate mode" where they're split and fighting individually. Maybe if solo they both get a bonus to maneuverability, but they have lower defenses since they can't cover each other's weaknesses. When together, they have lower top speed and agility (gotta keep that useless human from falling off your back, after all), but they can also execute some sort of flashy combo system. Separating lets you "divide and conquer" and gives you each more actions, but if you join forces you get fewer actions with a bigger payoff and higher chance of success (sort of like rolling 2 attacks vs 1 attack with advantage in 5e).

The possibility of having an odd number of players isn't a bug, it's a roleplaying feature: play a dragon that lost their rider, or a young upstart rider who hasn't "earned their wings yet." There's no rule that says you can't swap riders, or have two humans ride a single dragon...maybe those scenarios open you up to new moves and options but come with their own drawbacks like poor synergy from a new pairing or being much slower thanks to the extra weight.

Other examples: I always think of Eragon as an extremely archetypal "D&D-style hero riding a dragon" example. It's derivative plot- and lore-wise, but it's also extremely straightforward and it sounds fun tbh, so I do think that's the closest to the vibe that many PCs would want to hit.

On the other end of the spectrum is something like the Temeraire series (dragonriders during the Napoleonic wars) which really took a nifty approach to this: dragons aren't limited to a single rider unless the dragon is, like, horse-sized. The captain is the one who has the "dragonrider's bond," but there's an entire crew if it can fit, and the biggest dragons have entire squadrons of bombers strapped to their underbellies and gunners strapped along their spines. You could do something creative with different sizes of dragons and their different breath weapons if you really wanted to introduce crunch.

At that point it basically becomes an airship building simulator though :smallbiggrin:

[NichG]

My take on isekai is rooted in my experience of living in Japan for an extended time. My perspective is therefore biased and may well be missing what appeal, if any, isekai as a genre has outside of Japan.

Even Japanese isekai is broader than what you're describing though. Certainly there is isekai that aligns with what you're saying.

But just as much there's, for example, isekai that has strong elements of bragging about the superiority of a particular cultural value or innovation by contrasting it with a primitive background either uncritically or ironically. GATE and Outbreak Company are explicitly this, as well as that one about highschool prodigies that effectively take over a country with mayonnaise and idol culture. As well as the various isekai cooking genre ones, which are all sort of 'here's this demon god/dragon god/princess/etc who is incredibly impressed by hamburger steak or ice cream or tonkatsu or whatever' - Restaurant to Another World is one, I forget what the other one was... As far as playing it ironically, there's for example an isekai where the protagonist basically starts their own black company using stuff they learned from being abused by such companies as a salaryman, and another currently simulcasting where the protagonist having grown up in (and was killed by) a cult ends up having to start a cult.

You also get more traditional power fantasy ones which fixate on the protagonist having a personally potent 'cheat skill', nowadays usually explicitly lampshaded by the protagonist's dialogue, rather than on the protagonist bringing about change via transforming society. Stuff like the Spider isekai for example (Kumo desu ga nani ka) is more LitRPG/powercurve stuff mixed with a bit of zombie genre/survival game ethos of learning to discard regular morality. Along those lines, there's a lot which is about the transformation of the protagonist e.g. discarding some particular social norms or values, rather than transformation of the society in the world the protagonist enters. Overlord does have transformation of the world, but it also largely has this sort of protagonist transformation element as well.

There's also a variety of isekai which is basically 'real life is hard, so lets relax by playing easy mode' - protagonists who specifically don't want to change the world or society or even be noticed or involved in things, but want some kind of vacation. The "I've been killing slimes for 300 years" one for example. The most extreme versions of this have things that cause things to go well for the protagonist without the protagonist even having to act or engage with the situation or make a choice, not just passive powerup but even passive success. In particular, current season, there's an isekai where the protagonist's sister also gets isekai'd, ends up OP, and basically does everything for him but encourages him to take the credit.

And there's also as I mentioned upthread the subset of isekai which focus on exploiting metaknowledge, the fantasy of entering a known story. Either because its actually a known story where the protagonist came from (Next Life as a Villainess, Taming the Final Boss), or through groundhog day/timeloop types of things as in Re: Zero.

So yeah, I think there's a lot of people trying to express different things in this genre of which social change is certainly one, and general exhaustion with day to day life in the real world another. But you could do other things as well while still having an isekai feel.

[Quertus]

Have you tried adapting the Full Thrust wargame universe to an existing RPG? FT is probably the best space combat game out there and has an interesting fictional base. There was a conversion for making Traveller ships compatible with Full Thrust so if Traveller rocks your boat that may be up your alley.

I, sadly, haven't played either. :smallfrown:

Hmmm... hmmm... bolting an RPG onto the best space combat game I have access to (yes, I did reverse that, on purpose, as the space combat game is the important part here)? I mean, I could even use D&D, and just say that the "Spelljammers" available / common / known in one crystal sphere (a crystal sphere which doesn't know the tech to get outside itself, and is far away from other spacefaring spheres) just happen to be completely different from the "standard" array, utilizing completely different rules, create some excuse like having everyone run an allied captain, and call it a day.


There's value in recognizing the simplicity of the concept: It's you in another world. Altering the rules, changing the world, being the chosen one, accumulating a harem, the important point is your choices. How do you respond to your new life?

Although I agree with the "choices" thing, even as kinda a general RPG principle, not just Isekai, to my mind, an Isekai character needn't be "me".


Another form of isekai is the explicit metaknowledge type of isekai - you enter a story or plot you have prior knowledge of, and can use that to achieve a different outcome (often despite a lack of direct power in that subgenre).

I... huh. I guess it is. I had thought of that as a factor present in some Isekai, while placing things where "changing an existing story" was the explicit intent in their own box. But, yeah, that's an artificial boundary that serves no good purpose.

[Pauly]

I, sadly, haven't played either. :smallfrown:

Hmmm... hmmm... bolting an RPG onto the best space combat game I have access to (yes, I did reverse that, on purpose, as the space combat game is the important part here)? I mean, I could even use D&D, and just say that the "Spelljammers" available / common / known in one crystal sphere (a crystal sphere which doesn't know the tech to get outside itself, and is far away from other spacefaring spheres) just happen to be completely different from the "standard" array, utilizing completely different rules, create some excuse like having everyone run an allied captain, and call it a day.
.

Full Thrust’s previous editions are available for free download on their website.
https://shop.groundzerogames.co.uk/rules.html
There also is the FT Light available for download too, maybe have a tinker with that and decide if it’s a system you and your players could use.

[gbaji]

Specifically it's the "each person takes turns playing one mini game while everyone else goes and makes a sandwich" niche protection game play that's the biggest issue.

It wasn't really "each person" though. Just "the party decker". But yeah. We'd literally all walk out of the room and go eat food, hang out, watch some TV, etc, while the one player was "doing their thing".


I find Call of Cthulhu to be simultaneously too granular and not granular enough. Each time your skill goes up by one step, you get +1% chance of success, at most. That's too granular. Each time the difficulty of a task increases by one step, your odds of success are cut in half, or worse. That's not granular enough. Skill should take bigger steps, and difficulty should take smaller steps.

Skill going up "by one step" is a bit of a misleading statement though. Exp gains go by D10%, which is equivalent to going up by up to +2 in a D20 game (ie: pretty darn significant increases, but then again... death rate is an issue here). I haven't actually played the newer rules for CoC, but yeah, I can see how the difficulty levels are not so granular. But it's pretty easy to just apply -% difficulties instead if you want more granularity (so -20%, -40%, or whatever).

I regularly use a modified opposed skill rule for any percentile games I play. Just roll for both skills, and whomever makes it by the most percentage points wins. Easy. You can actually think of it as "how much you make your skill by becomes the difficulty -% the other person has to overcome". Whcih makes both difficulty *and* opposed skills effectively use the same rules. And it provides the same granularity all the way through the system.


Isekai isn’t a power fantasy.

...

An isekai RPG is responding to a different fantasy, which is that the character(s) is an agent for changing the world.

Except that in Isekai, the character *is* the player (or a version of themselves). So yeah. It's about the player fantisizing about haivng the power to change the/a world.

And is in stark contrast to other forms of RPG where the player fantisizes about playing someone else who has the power to <do various things which could include changing the world, or not>. It's the difference between imaginging that you are someone else living their own lives and doing their own things versus imagining that *you* are capable of living that life and doing those things.


How that difference manifests in terms of game design/operation is probably subject to some debate. But recognizing that key difference is probably pretty darn important to the process.

[False God]

Although I agree with the "choices" thing, even as kinda a general RPG principle, not just Isekai, to my mind, an Isekai character needn't be "me".

I guess I generally find most RPGs give you mostly false choices.

No, the Isekai character in question doesn't have to be you. But playing "a made up person" who then gets isekaied is IMO, little different from the basic adventure format. IMO, playing yourself is what would make the Isekai "genre" stand out, in particular I find it useful when playing with highly skilled, highly educated or very meta-knowledgable players. I can leverage their IRL knowledge to make in-game decisions instead of just having them "roll to see if your character knows that".

[Tohron]

Interestingly, the "Original" isekai TRPG would arguably be Arneson's Blackmoor campaign, which was the direct inspiration for the original D&D. So isekai TRPGs have been around for a while.

[Hrugner]

The world changing stuff just happens to be a feature of some isekai that's hard to model in most current ttrpgs because it has it's own power curve and the world levels up with you as part of the in world narrative. It's specific enough that it certainly wouldn't work for many isekai stories, but it would need it's own system. Metaknowledge, timeloop, John Carter/cheat power, isekai could fairly easily be modeled in existing games, so it makes sense not to spend too much time thinking about them. "In another world denying the call for several years" type stories could need expansive downtime rules to make not adventuring interesting, and could probably be built up with similar rules to the world changing type as you're trying to flex your power without changing the world or attracting attention.

What other isekai types don't work in the standard plot format of ttrpgs. Or, which ones would work well enough for the world altering types that we wouldn't need a new game for it?

[Easy e]

Interesting topic and one that needs better discussion. Here are some general thoughts:

- A game that focuses on Fairy Tales/Fables with a mix of humans and animal characters available could be cool.

- Something with an Ancient History bend like Greek Heroes of Myth, Early Imperial of Republican Rome, or something set in a time frame we do not hear too much about, like Napoleonic Europe and the Med could be fun or pre-WWI European spies.

Honestly, I feel like Urban Fantasy, Sword and Sorcery, Weird Wild West, Supers, Moderns, and Weird World War II is pretty well represented

[Mordante]

of the things you wish these are what I know already exist:

Urban Fantasy:
Dresden Files Rpg Exists

"Dieselpunk":
Spirit of the Century exists

Pixies and Fairies:
Fairies A roleplaying game exists

Anthropomorphic animals:
Jadeclaw, Iron Claw, Pugmire, Monarchies of Mau all exist

I'm pretty sure I've seen a lot of spy rpgs on drivethrurpg, and thing is a lot of your "modern" genre stuff you want is covered already by something like Spirit of the Century or any other rpg doing general modern stuff, because spy or cop on its own is simply too niche to attract people, because the way DnD works and especially indie rpgs that try to do more with less? is that something like a spy or a police officer or whatever is just one archetype, much like how a thief or a warrior is one archetype. similarly "me and my dragon" is more of a class or subclass than something you dedicate an entire rpg to, if that makes sense, because its one archetype in a general fantasy world for people to play in.


Is the Dresden files RPG any good?

[Lord Raziere]

Is the Dresden files RPG any good?

I certainly think so, but I like Fate system in general. for you, it depends how much you like or understand the aspects/fate point stuff and thus the narrative stuff it does, working very differently from something like DnD. which is something only you can decide for yourself by checking and/or trying it out.

[MrStabby]

This one would be really cool if it wasn't just a D&D clone for classes. Ie not 4 classes of warrior guy, offensive spell guy, healer/warrior guy, and sneaky/trap lock guy.

Of course, this has been attempted many many times in a variety of formats, to one degree of success or another. For some very not-D&D-clone attempts: Dungeon World, Torchbearer, Blades in the Dark, and Forbidden Lands.

Ah, thanks. I have heard of each of these but never played. I should look into them.

[Quertus]

Maybe if you allow the PCs to alter the rules of the game,

That reminds me of my initial answer to the question, that I keep forgetting: with all the people mistaking the arts of common Wizards for “changing the rules of reality”, it feels like the market is ripe for a new system where characters actually change the rules of their reality.

EDIT: I’m not sure incorporating that into an Isekai RPG is necessary, but it is an interesting idea.

[Pauly]

That reminds me of my initial answer to the question, that I keep forgetting: with all the people mistaking the arts of common Wizards for “changing the rules of reality”, it feels like the market is ripe for a new system where characters actually change the rules of their reality.

EDIT: I’m not sure incorporating that into an Isekai RPG is necessary, but it is an interesting idea.

In some ways that concept interests me more than having house rules or campaign rules which are set by the GM with or without player input.

In the same vein the GM may also be required to spend an in game resource to make their own alterations to the game rules.

There probably be some kind of Calvinball rider to prevent players and GMs just cancelling each other’s rules changes.

[LibraryOgre]

It wasn't really "each person" though. Just "the party decker". But yeah. We'd literally all walk out of the room and go eat food, hang out, watch some TV, etc, while the one player was "doing their thing".


Mages, too, can wind up in this, though they're not as bad.

[gbaji]

Mages, too, can wind up in this, though they're not as bad.

Well. I think any type of character can wind up in this. Sometimes, it's the party face taking one on one time too. But that sort of "off table but sometimes on table" stuff can happen in any game system as the game is played. SR's decker's though, are pretty unique in that their one "niche thing" literally requires that it often be resolved during game play while everyone else waits. There's an entire mini-game related to hacking that both takes real table time *and* takes very little (more or less zero) time in the game. So yeah, you can literally be in the middle of the party fighting its way through some corp defenses, get to a security block, and then everything stops while the decker player and GM roleplay out the session of the security system hack. And sure, you could handwave that away or shorten it, but it's literally what deckers do in that game, so taking it away takes away their entire purpose as a character. Not playing it out is like just having everyone roll a "combat" skill and decide "you beat the other guys, here's your prize" instead of putting out minis, drawing the rooms, and actually playing out the combat using the items and skills the PCs have written on their sheets.

On the one hand, it's a plus for the game in that they actually went to the trouble of building an entire extra combat(ish) system for managing deckers and hacks. And frankly, it's why folks play deckers. They want to play through a hack. But on the flip side? Yeah. Everyone else waiting. It was the one aspect of that game that we just never found any good way around. You try to do whatever hacking off table that you can, but you just can't eliminate it entirely. And unfortunately, if you wanted to actually be good at hacking, you really had to focus skills and gear in that direction, which meant not a lot left over for being very useful at anything else.

Riggers were another class that was tricky. But usually enough stuff happened out on the streets that they at least got some action. Enough that the fact that they were pretty gimped when not operating their vehicles was usually made up for by the pretty massive amount of extra stuff available when they were. I fondly remember the scooby van complete with sensor package and rocket launcher on the roof. Good times!

[vasilidor]

Shadowrun did not originally have niche protection. That was built into it later and the game suffered as a result.
I would like to see more characters sporting trodes and going into the matrix that way. Using slow systems with high end sleaze and masking. Things are actually more affordable when you don't have high end response increases. But 5th & 6th edition of that game said no. They invented new niche protection for certain archetypes while making those archetypes hard to play at best, a mistake to play at worst.
2e Shadowrun is about the best version of the game, if you use 3e magic initiation rules.

Having a system that allows you to progress outside the initial niche your character starts in is not a bad thing, especially if the characters do not suffer from trying to diversify. Being able to learn new skills is a very real thing and I often find D&Ds attempts at trying to force hyper specialization disconcerting and immersion breaking. Niche protection just needs to go away.

[Pauly]

Interesting topic and one that needs better discussion. Here are some general thoughts:

- A game that focuses on Fairy Tales/Fables with a mix of humans and animal characters available could be cool.

- Something with an Ancient History bend like Greek Heroes of Myth, Early Imperial of Republican Rome, or something set in a time frame we do not hear too much about, like Napoleonic Europe and the Med could be fun or pre-WWI European spies.

Honestly, I feel like Urban Fantasy, Sword and Sorcery, Weird Wild West, Supers, Moderns, and Weird World War II is pretty well represented

For ancient history it’s been tried and failed as a TTRPG many times. Maybe if you go God of War style and be inspired by ancient history/mythology but isn’t that close maybe you could create something that gets a following. Me, I’d be happy getting into a historical game of political intrigue set in the time of the Marian/Sulla wars but I’ve never been able to get anyone else enthused about that campaign.

About the only historical genre that gets any traction is three musketeers/golden age of piracy, and even then it’s much more the game which gives a twist to the movie of the novel of the history.

I think urban fantasy and moderns are available providing that a compelling and coherent setting is written. A lot of the modern/near future stuff is under written and the urban fantasy ends up being incoherent because they try to put too much stuff in.

[Satinavian]

SR tries every single edition to completely rework the Matrix rules and make them fun. It never worked, but the issue surely was recognized.

As for mages, only astral projection is an issue. Personally i would get rd of it altogether as it is too powerful as well as it is not plausible for most antagonists to have a proper defense against it. Astral perception is good enough

But niche protection ? Nearly every single SR character i know is a hybrid and i have seen and even played every single common role as part of a hybrid. The system itself does not force niche protection all that much. It's all expectations and tropes.

[Pauly]

On the issue of Shadowrun.
It’s long been recognized that the rules and gameplay are a bit of a mess.
The genre it's going for [blend of cyberpunk and fantasy] is far from a mainstream.
So why is it popular and enduring?
For me it comes down to the excellent writing to create the setting and the very cool artwork which combine to create an extremely compelling environment to RP in.

[Easy e]

For ancient history it’s been tried and failed as a TTRPG many times. Maybe if you go God of War style and be inspired by ancient history/mythology but isn’t that close maybe you could create something that gets a following. Me, I’d be happy getting into a historical game of political intrigue set in the time of the Marian/Sulla wars but I’ve never been able to get anyone else enthused about that campaign.

About the only historical genre that gets any traction is three musketeers/golden age of piracy, and even then it’s much more the game which gives a twist to the movie of the novel of the history.



Yeah I was thinking more Mythological Ancient History or Fantasy History. From a wargaming perspective I was thinking a theme like Broken Legions only as an RPG....

https://ospreypublishing.com/us/broken-legions-9781472815132/



The Roman Empire rules the civilized world with an iron fist, seemingly all-powerful and limitless. And yet the power of Rome is secured not by its mighty legions but by small bands of warriors and agents fighting a secret war. Tasked by the Emperor to explore ancient temples, forgotten labyrinths, and beast-haunted caverns, they seek out artifacts hidden by the gods themselves, hunt creatures of myth, and face enemies that would use dark magic against the empire.

I think another RPG example could be Osprey Games Jackals. It is a Bronze Age skin with a Fantasy Historical setting. However, it is drawing from some Historical detail for a completely fantasy setting. So basically a twist like we see for Musketeer style games or for Pendragon style games.

[gbaji]

Shadowrun did not originally have niche protection. That was built into it later and the game suffered as a result.
I would like to see more characters sporting trodes and going into the matrix that way. Using slow systems with high end sleaze and masking. Things are actually more affordable when you don't have high end response increases. But 5th & 6th edition of that game said no. They invented new niche protection for certain archetypes while making those archetypes hard to play at best, a mistake to play at worst.
2e Shadowrun is about the best version of the game, if you use 3e magic initiation rules.


Ok. I think we mostly played 2nd/3rd edition (I don't remember edition numbers, but I do remember something coming out that significantly expanded on the magic rules, so I'm guessing that was 3rd?). So that may explain my slightly different perception of the game with regards to niche protection. Wasn't aware that they cranked that up to 11 later on.



On the issue of Shadowrun.
It’s long been recognized that the rules and gameplay are a bit of a mess.
The genre it's going for [blend of cyberpunk and fantasy] is far from a mainstream.
So why is it popular and enduring?
For me it comes down to the excellent writing to create the setting and the very cool artwork which combine to create an extremely compelling environment to RP in.

Honestly? For us, it was "Cyberpunk with magic and fantasy races". We played Cyberpunk previously (cause hey, who's not a fan of Gibson?). That game system had some serious problems though (which, honestly, I can't recall the details of, except that it had problems). When SR came out, we tried it out and were like "Huh. This is like 10x better and more fun". The skill/point advancement system was something relatively newish, so it was interesting as well (and actually worked). And the whole dice pools and target numbers dynamic was also somewhat new and interesting (and also worked). So yeah. It was a nice departure from "D&D clone with a different setting and slightly different rules" that was most games up to that point.


Oh. I suppose I should actually comment on the topic. Kinda agree on the whole "ancient/classic world" bit. I've seen it tried many many times. Not sure if I've ever seen one really take off though. It's a genre that *could* be interesting and exicting though.

I've also got a bit of a soft spot for "pre-history" (or "really really early history") type settings. Also haven't seen this really pulled off well though. But the idea of powerful gods (maybe take Gaiman's concept of gods and apply it here), and heroes, but in a world where the unknown is literally right there over the next hill. You can run Conan type stories, where adventures are running into the next city-state, with stuff that's maybe completely different from anywhere you've been previously. Unfortunately, every time I've seen this run outside of shortish campaigns, it does tend to devolve into a more stock fantasy setting over time. I just think that players are naturally "wired" towards world connectivity. They want to travel back and forth, and revisit places they've been and people they've seen (which makes a lot of sense really). So yeah. Tough setting to pull off well. But it can give a "sky's the limit" feel.

Not a huge fan of near-current or near-future stuff. Just too hard to keep fantasy and reality separate. And usually the game rules will never simulate a world that the players are familiar with very well. Which yeah, means game rules don't really simulate any world well, but the more familiar you are with what a real world in that genre looks like, the more aware of this you are.

Somewhat farther future works for me. I could see playing in an Expanse setting. Which, you know, makes sense given the source.

[vasilidor]

Early Shadowrun had the lore defined by the rules.
Street Samurai were scary because of how the rules worked.
Recent/new Shadowrun fails to emulate its own lore.
Street Samurai are now a joke because decker goes brrrr.
But you could have functioning multirole characters in the early editions.

The reason Shadowrun stuck around as long as it has is because of the good world building it started with. the 2050's to 2060's being about the most fun time to play in as far as world building goes for it. High fantasy blended near seamlessly with cyberpunk both in how the rules work and the lore.

[Sparky McDibben]

I recently discovered "flintlock fantasy" here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/flagbearergames/the-american-crisis-a-nations-and-cannons-adventure-for-dnd-5e

Their core rules are pretty interesting. You can also run the whole thing without fantastical options, too, for a straight historical experience.

[Pauly]

I recently discovered "flintlock fantasy" here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/flagbearergames/the-american-crisis-a-nations-and-cannons-adventure-for-dnd-5e

Their core rules are pretty interesting. You can also run the whole thing without fantastical options, too, for a straight historical experience.

The Flintloque wargame by Alternative Armies is the base I’d run off. There are some very nice miniatures and a an interesting enough backstory that matches the fabtasy races to the real life combatants.

[Sparky McDibben]

The Flintloque wargame by Alternative Armies is the base I’d run off. There are some very nice miniatures and a an interesting enough backstory that matches the fabtasy races to the real life combatants.

That sounds a little fraught if we're saying orcs = native Americans. Hopefully that's not the case. Furthermore, I'd argue that war games <> roleplaying games, and part of the fun of historical RP is getting to actually roleplay, not just fight.

[Pauly]

That sounds a little fraught if we're saying orcs = native Americans. Hopefully that's not the case. Furthermore, I'd argue that war games <> roleplaying games, and part of the fun of historical RP is getting to actually roleplay, not just fight.

The Austrians are gnolls (dogmen) as Napoleon famously referred to Austrians as dog-soldiers, well at least before Aspern-Essling.
The Prussians are dwarves, which fits the Nibelungenlied.
French are Elves, Spanish are Dark Elves (elves with suntans)
That kind of thing.

[False God]

That sounds a little fraught if we're saying orcs = native Americans. Hopefully that's not the case. Furthermore, I'd argue that war games <> roleplaying games, and part of the fun of historical RP is getting to actually roleplay, not just fight.

There's nothing functionally wrong with replacing IRL cultures and people with fantasy ones, provided that they're given fair treatment. If the Indigenous People are replaced with orcs because every time you turn around some human race has been replaced with some other fantasy race, then the key is proper representation.

If they're not human in order to justify violence against them by predominantly white European humans, yeah, you've got a problem.

If they're not human but they still retain defining cultures, traits, and behaviours that make them identifiably "human" and the game leaves the justification of violence up to the viewer then you don't have a problem.

"Dragons Conquer America" is a good example of pulling this off. Its also important that the game allows you to play both the invaders and the locals. It's often easy to fall into the trap of "the non-humans only exist to be killed" when the game only allows you to play one(usually the white, European human) faction.

[Sparky McDibben]

The Austrians are gnolls (dogmen) as Napoleon famously referred to Austrians as dog-soldiers, well at least before Aspern-Essling.
The Prussians are dwarves, which fits the Nibelungenlied.
French are Elves, Spanish are Dark Elves (elves with suntans)
That kind of thing.


There's nothing functionally wrong with replacing IRL cultures and people with fantasy ones, provided that they're given fair treatment. If the Indigenous People are replaced with orcs because every time you turn around some human race has been replaced with some other fantasy race, then the key is proper representation.

If they're not human in order to justify violence against them by predominantly white European humans, yeah, you've got a problem.

If they're not human but they still retain defining cultures, traits, and behaviours that make them identifiably "human" and the game leaves the justification of violence up to the viewer then you don't have a problem.

"Dragons Conquer America" is a good example of pulling this off. Its also important that the game allows you to play both the invaders and the locals. It's often easy to fall into the trap of "the non-humans only exist to be killed" when the game only allows you to play one(usually the white, European human) faction.

I don't necessarily agree here, but I also don't want to derail this topic with "problematic." I'll just take y'all's points and drop the matter. Thanks for the feedback, and thanks for the civility!

[Pauly]

Inspired by another thread.
There apparently is a market for solo/1 player 1 DM games.

I think a “spymaster” either cold war era or maybe some sci-fi or fantasy universe could satisfy.

Basically the game would be the director of the black ops of a small to medium power and the player would be tasked with. The resources would be 2 to 3 operatives and then your relationships with other departments (Internal security, diplomatic service, army intelligence, navy intelligence, air force intelligence, special forces military, counterparts in other country’s spy services, rival departments within your spy agency, etc.
Challenges include
- Choosing which operative(s) to send or to rely on normal field agents.
- maintaining a reserve to respond to emergencies.
- planning missions
- fending off pressure from other departments to run operations.
- gaining influence/favors by running missions for other entities
- choosing which other agencies to bring in
- dealing with counter-intelligence from the enemies.
- keeping your operatives happy and willing to do the dirty job someone has to
- finding a replacement for any lost operatives

The reason for setting in a lesser power is that resources are limited and the number of relationships to keep track is manageable.

[SimonMoon6]

Well if we go back to the grandaddy of isekai - A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court, - the other problem is how do you stop modern knowledge overpowering and overrunning the setting?

Well, in that story, there was no magic. In D&D games, guns are usually way weaker than fireballs, so it doesn't make much sense to bother trying to invent gunpowder and guns and bombs when a fireball is way more effective. I mean, the one advantage is that mundane humans can use guns and stuff whereas only wizards (etc) can use fireballs, but one solution is to do silly Starfinder stuff like "Oh, sorry, that's a level 12 bomb and you're only 1st level, so you can't use it, even if the basic mechanics behind the bomb are the same as a level 1 bomb. Inexplicably, this bomb just doesn't work for you." (At least that's what I've heard Starfinder is like; I haven't actually read the rules.)




Re Isekai. As previously pointed out I think the main problem is not so much character creation, but what happens once the character is in world.

I have run manyself-insert games. I have also played in a few (but the ones I played in never lasted very long). Generally, I have found little problem with the game itself. The PCs are stuck in a world where the rules are different from what they know. Perhaps gunpowder doesn't even work in this world. It's not the real world after all. Try all the science you like, it's not gonna work. That's why everyone uses magic.

If this then seems like just another fantasy game with no isekai elements, keep in mind a few things: First, there is motivation. Self-insert PCs have different motivations than generic PCs, so that leads the game into different territories. Most noticeably with self-insert PCs, characters end up considering morality quite a bit more and can often disagree quite strongly. It's one thing for Blandy McBland the paladin to kill goblin babies for the greater good, but would RealWorld Guy kill them?

Also, a big thing that I don't see addressed is that self-insert PCs often (but not always) want to get back to the real world. So, that's a motivation that's unlike regular PCs. And then, we need to have questions like "Is it possible to get back to the real world and what are the rules behind doing so?" or "Does the story end when the PCs get back to the real world?"

For example, one such game that I was running in 3.0 (when it was new) was going to build up to a demon lord finding out about the "real world" that the PCs came from. He was going to invade with a huge army of demons who would mostly be immune to the mundane damage of the Earth's military might. Only the PCs stood any chance of their saving the real world from a demon invasion.

Basically, I see self-insert games as just a smaller less interesting version of a plane-hopping multiversal TORG style game (it doesn't have to have a full invasion like in TORG, but to be able to go to worlds with different rules is a big deal. And yes, TORG doesn't let the PCs do a lot of plane-hopping but that's because the other realities have come to Earth, so their rules are in various parts of Earth already.)

So, that's what I think the RPG market lacks. A *good* (so, for example, not RIFTS or GURPS) game that can handle different realities with different rules structures where things that work in one world will not work in another. And it needs to cover ways to travel between the various worlds.
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[Maat Mons]

Actually, in Starfinder, you can use items of any level. It's just that NPC vendors can sense your character level, and will refuse to sell you anything that's too high level for you.


In Starfinder, all armor, equipment, and weapons (whether magic, technological, or hybrid) are assigned an item level. While characters can utilize items of any level, Game Masters should keep in mind that allowing characters access to items far above their current level may imbalance the game.

An object’s item level represents the scarcity and value of the technology and/or magic employed in its construction—higher-level items generally incorporate more advanced technology or mystical forces. An object’s item level also determines its hardness and Hit Points (see Breaking Objects on page 409) and is an indicator of the level at which a character should typically expect to both have access to the item and be able to craft it (see Crafting Equipment and Magic Items on page 235).

Item level also helps convey the fact that buying equipment is more involved than just placing an order. Even finding the items you desire isn’t always easy, and those who have access to things such as powerful weapons and armor tend to deal only with people they trust. Legitimate vendors don’t want to get reputations for selling hardware to pirates or criminals, and even criminal networks must be careful with whom they do business.

Rather than meticulously track every arms dealer, contact, guild, and license a character has access to, the game assumes that in typical settlements you can find and purchase anything with an item level no greater than your character level + 1, and at major settlements items up to your character level + 2. The GM can restrict access to some items (even those of an appropriate level) or make items of a higher level available for purchase (possibly at a greatly increased price or in return for a favor done for the seller).

[Sapphire Guard]

I wonder how useful ordinary person future knowledge would be. How much of it is dependent on things you either don't know how to make, can't do yourself, or materials that have to be sent from unfeasibly far away?

No idea how to do this mechanically, but it would be interesting to see someone try and do the thing where seers are trying to alter the timeline against either each other or fate? You have to find the right places to apply the butterfly effect to get the changes you want, and stop other entities from doing the same thing to you.