[3.PF] Pre-Scripting Mass Combat

[Drakevarg]

For context, my campaign's next mission involves a militia platoon marching out to reclaim a local lord's estate that has been sacked by mercenaries. This means combat involving dozens of NPC combatants, which is a known no-no for tabletop encounters since it basically involves sitting around while the DM does bookkeeping for three hours. The books I checked had two suggestions, neither great:

- DMG II has the mob template, which could turn the militia platoon into effectively a single swarm creature. Not viable, since it basically precludes anything resembling military tactics.
- Heroes of Battle simply suggests that if the outcome of a particular skirmish is relevant, roll it out ahead of time (deviating where the PCs get involved). This battle is too small to outright reduce the combat to background noise, but big enough that it would be a pain to roll out in detail.

So, I'm a bit stuck. I don't want to manually script out an encounter of 60+ NPCs, but I still need a general idea of what's going on in case the PCs are caught in the middle. Does anyone have some quick-and-dirty tips and tricks for resolving situations like this without being entirely arbitrary about it?

[Palanan]

Will the PCs be leading the militia platoon? If so, could you give each of the PCs command of a squad within the platoon?

Also, have you looked at Pathfinder’s troop subtype (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterSubtypes.aspx?ItemName=Troop)? Troops were introduced in Ironfang Invasion, and allow you to use a single set of stats for a small unit of soldiers, from 12-30 according to the description. Subdividing the militia into several troops could help split the difference for your dilemma.

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[Drakevarg]

Will the PCs be leading the militia platoon? If so, could you give each of the PCs command of a squad within the platoon?

Yes and no. The estate in question is the home of one of the PCs, so the operation is in effect happening on their behalf. But the troops aren't directly under their command, and the PCs are about equal in skill level to the platoon's squad leaders. So the militia is probably inclined to listen to the party's advice, but not necessarily their orders.


Also, have you looked at Pathfinder’s troop subtype (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterSubtypes.aspx?ItemName=Troop)? Troops were introduced in Ironfang Invasion, and allow you to use a single set of stats for a small unit of soldiers, from 12-30 according to the description. Subdividing the militia into several troops could help split the difference for your dilemma.

Hm. Looks like a refined version of the mob template from DMG II. It does have a similar problem in that it assumes that the collective will be acting as a blob of swords. These troops will have melee weapons, but they're primarily crossbowmen. I suppose it could at least simplify health considerations. It's a start.

[Palanan]

Another possibility is to play out the full encounter here in the Playground’s PbP section, dividing the platoon into smaller squads with each squad controlled by a separate forum player. That would give it an organic feel, with tactical decisions made by each player that could have an effect on the ebb and flow of the combat. The PbP approach would also give you a detailed text record of the combat as a ready-made script for your live game.

The downside would be time constraints—if this is something you need to work out in the next few days, that wouldn’t work well with a typical PbP timescale.

[Drakevarg]

Another possibility is to play out the full encounter here in the Playground’s PbP section, dividing the platoon into smaller squads with each squad controlled by a separate forum player. That would give it an organic feel, with tactical decisions made by each player that could have an effect on the ebb and flow of the combat. The PbP approach would also give you a detailed text record of the combat as a ready-made script for your live game.

The downside would be time constraints—if this is something you need to work out in the next few days, that wouldn’t work well with a typical PbP timescale.

Could be an interesting approach, never tried anything like that before. I've got at least two weeks until I need to have this in front of my players. More, if they get caught up with other stuff.

[Palanan]

How exactly are you planning for this combat to play out? Will this be a straight-up fight between the militia and the mercenaries, and what role will the PCs have in all of this?

Also, will there be any spellcasting on either side?

[Drakevarg]

How exactly are you planning for this combat to play out? Will this be a straight-up fight between the militia and the mercenaries, and what role will the PCs have in all of this?

Not a straight-up fight; the mercenaries know that a militia response will be coming, and have taken steps to prepare. The first encounter I have planned is on the road leading into the estate. Since wandering zombies are a problem in the setting, the fields are enclosed in barbed-wire fencing, which will basically force the militia to enter via the main road (walking through crop fields would be functionally equivalent to marching through undergrowth and would give poor visibility, which would make it comparatively easier for the mercs to pick them off from stealth).

In anticipation of this, the mercs have littered the road in with caltrops and positioned a camouflaged squad in the fields. There are giant mosquitos [stirges] in the area that'll swarm whenever they smell bloodshed, so the mercs are hoping to let them pick off (or at least weaken) a few of the militia before they have to open fire. Since this first mercenary squad is outnumbered 5-to-1, they're just hoping to soften the platoon up before falling back to more defensible areas.

The mission will presumably continue to play out in this pattern, with a dwindling militia party gradually forcing the mercenaries further and further back into their defenses until they give up and rout (or wipe out the militia). The party might be assisting or they might decide to go in stealthy-like while the militia keeps the mercs occupied. Hard to say this early in the planning stages.


Also, will there be any spellcasting on either side?

No spellcasters, except maybe the party Inquisitor. (Who I don't think has cast a spell yet this campaign besides detect magic.) NPCs are all Fighters, Rangers (low-level, so no magic) or Gunslingers.

[Lacco]

For context, my campaign's next mission involves a militia platoon marching out to reclaim a local lord's estate that has been sacked by mercenaries. This means combat involving dozens of NPC combatants, which is a known no-no for tabletop encounters since it basically involves sitting around while the DM does bookkeeping for three hours. The books I checked had two suggestions, neither great:

- DMG II has the mob template, which could turn the militia platoon into effectively a single swarm creature. Not viable, since it basically precludes anything resembling military tactics.
- Heroes of Battle simply suggests that if the outcome of a particular skirmish is relevant, roll it out ahead of time (deviating where the PCs get involved). This battle is too small to outright reduce the combat to background noise, but big enough that it would be a pain to roll out in detail.

So, I'm a bit stuck. I don't want to manually script out an encounter of 60+ NPCs, but I still need a general idea of what's going on in case the PCs are caught in the middle. Does anyone have some quick-and-dirty tips and tricks for resolving situations like this without being entirely arbitrary about it?

I'd check abstract mass combat rules. Riddle of Steel (Flower of Battle) has a detailed one, but a simple one for d20 has been presented in By This Axe (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/140878/By-this-Axe). It's a two page at the end of the rules. Don't know if it will suit you.

It can be pre-rolled, but if players can influence tactics, it can be prepared so you just have a roll or two and then some bookkeeping after combat.

You calculate the strength of the two forces, decide if any strategems/tactics shall be used and then you roll.

Roll decides if you have a victory or loss on your side. Followed by casualty rolls for both sides - so it's more like actual battle where you rout the enemy or make him leave (or same thing opposite way).

Three rolls, some bookkeeping (losses).

The Riddle of Steel mass combat system is very similar with hourly rolls for both sides, some speeches up front and so on. It's a good read, with actions for heroes (e.g. someone can stay in the tactics tent, healers provide their healing powers, someone leads the charge), but much more detailed for bigger battles.

[pabelfly]

I've had some experience running a large-scale combat with between 30-50 enemies. Here are some tips:
- A regular combat sessions is around an hour, but a large-scale combat will run 2-3 hours. Don't expect to do much else in a mass combat session.
- Keep enemies in squads of equal numbers, and give each member of the squad the same initiative score and preferably the same stat block. Also try to have them target the same enemy. This speeds up turn order and makes movement, tactics and rolling attacks etc easy.
- You can have several enemy types, including a few stronger bosses for combat variety, and give the stronger characters something to aim at.
- Keep attack strategies simple for all but boss characters. The more complex it is, the longer it takes to go over rules and the more easy it is to forget. Martials just run in and attack from various sides, or maybe throw spears. Casters have simple, easily-remembered spells like Magic Missile or Fireball.

A large combat is quite a fun change of pace, have fun and enjoy

[Drakevarg]

- Keep enemies in squads of equal numbers, and give each member of the squad the same initiative score and preferably the same stat block. Also try to have them target the same enemy. This speeds up turn order and makes movement, tactics and rolling attacks etc easy.

This is kinda-sorta how Star Wars FFG handles minions, seems like a decent approach. Turns the encounter from being a 60-person mess to something that is hypothetically a much more manageable 5v3.

[pabelfly]

This is kinda-sorta how Star Wars FFG handles minions, seems like a decent approach. Turns the encounter from being a 60-person mess to something that is hypothetically a much more manageable 5v3.

Let's say you have a squad of nine Fighters attacking one PC. You're still moving nine people, doing nine attack rolls, players attacks can only target so many enemies and so forth, it's just that doing nine people at once helps make sure you don't miss people or wasting too much time working out turn order and such.

[DrMartin]

in my kingdom-management focused campaign I've used variations of the pathfinder army rules, of the army rules from Red Tide, from Die Men! (a supplement for Reign), and the War system from Spellbound Kingdom.

They all worked, to some extent. The one I am more satisfied with is the Spellbound Kingdom system, but that maybe because it's the last I tried and all previous experiences contributed to it.

When i used the pathfinder native system, I had a small secondary battlefield with the units and their stat noted down, and prepared a few "set" encounters for the players to play through that would either take parts of the defending army off the scene, or give bonuses to their army. The inspiration for these came from some house rules on the paizo forum for Rivers Run Red, the second module in Kingmaker - look for "Hargulka's Monster Kingdom" if you want to dig deeper.

Red Tide has a "fractal" approach to army units. If a "unit" in your skirmish or army scene is made of 12 or 60 soldiers, then that many soldier have the same stats of a single individual member of that unit, but now they fight at army scale, and insta-gib anything not at army scale. PCs can get special treatment or not, depending on the tone of the campaign - they might scale to army-size to give you vibes of old-school warhammer fantasy battle and mow down dozens of soldier with each swing, or be just as vulnerable as regular non-army size creatures to military unit and be essentially unable to engage military units head on.

Die Men! is really good and easy to set up. It is written as a generic warfare system, that can be plugged in a roleplaying game as needed but can work also by itself for very simple wargaming. Player's characters contribution are mainly in being able to override a single units strategy, essentially leading small groups of men within the larger army on elite missions.

Spellbound Kingdom is also very easy to set up, but requires some more conversion to either balance pathfinder power level to its dice system, or to replace its resolution system with pathfinder's. Not a huge amount of work, but work nonetheless, and something gets lost in translation. What it does have is a good system for when the character go "hero time!", which in my experience maps very well to a Pathfinder/DnD table.

[aglondier]

I've run this in a game or two. My suggestion for handling mass combat is to do it cinematically in the background, while the players take centre stage.
You know the npc forces, you created them. Militia vs mercenaries. If there was no player involvement, you know which side will win, and what the repercussions will be. Do a very open play by play for how this fight would go down. You know where the leaders are. You know where the choke points are. You know where ambushes and strategy are in play.

Now ask the players what they want to do.

Are they going to assassinate the npc leader? Cast aoe spells into the combat? Scout out the opposition and bring their plan back to the other force? Snipe anyone issuing orders mid fight? Heal the injured, allowing them to return to the fight?

Let them make the kind of difference you would expect a highly trained special ops team would make on a regular combat. The players can do their thing in individual engagements while the battle carries on in the background. If they choose well, it can tip the balance of the battle in their favour, or their choices may result in their side losing. This is the PCs story, and players like to know they made a difference...

[Drakevarg]

Well I'm happy to report that I have at least two more weeks to figure this out, because tonight's session only just got past the epilogue of the last mission. Was a fun fight, but if eight level 1 cultists in stealth took a full session to deal with, a full-sized battle (even a relatively small one) remains a bit daunting.

[Crake]

I would just narrate it and let the players roll dice when they want to participate, letting their actions affect my narration, but I wouldnt bother with dice rolls or miniatures beyond that.

[Raven777]

Heroes of Battle simply suggests that if the outcome of a particular skirmish is relevant, roll it out ahead of time (deviating where the PCs get involved). This battle is too small to outright reduce the combat to background noise, but big enough that it would be a pain to roll out in detail.

This is the best, most cinematic, least disruptive way to go in my opinion. I expanded upon a similar conundrum a bit for Curse of Strahd's big final all stars showdown, let me dig it up.


Setpieces and DM fiat.

Don't have everyone brawl in the foyer at the same time. It can certainly start that way, Quantin Tarantino all-hell-breaks-loose style, but the battle must spread out to the entire castle. A good way for that is to have Strahd book it with Ireena, and the PCs must pursue, while everyone else on either side keeps everyone else from intervening. Plus, some NPCs are totally gonna have a go at each other to settle some scores. Victor is almost certainly going to single out Fiona, Kasimir has probably some choice words for Rahadin, and so on.

Then, don't actively track anything that's not in the PCs' sight. Decide ahead of time on some cool setpieces of specific NPCs battling it out in specific rooms, and only resume that battle (or decide on its aftermath, if you are tight on time) when the PCs arrive in the room. You can also have some other NPCs crash in on an ongoing fight, like the two werewolf leaders crashing through a ceiling, or Ludmilla punting in Van Richten through the chapel's window. You want to give an impression that everyone is actively fighting.

The atmosphere you want is that the entire castle has descended into chaos (and Mordenkainen is having the time of his life), but you certainly don't want to track every subpart of it.

Caveat: that much action going on, even if not all tracked, means that the entire battle is absolutely a slog. Be sure your players (yourself included) are on board with a giant "storming of the castle" battle that will almost certainly take more than one session.

[Lacco]

Another thought:

Run the scenario without the PCs. Note the result.

Anything the PCs do could (and maybe should) make a difference: they kill an enemy, that's one less casualty on player side. They make a smart maneuver, they save multiple lives. You can write down/note major events during the battle and use them as flavor - or decision points (e.g. a boss monster arrives on turn 7 and by turn 9 it has caused massive casualties before being taken down; if the players take it on, it causes no casualties and if they manage to take it down, it will be a turnover in the battle).

So basically: scenario - PCs = baseline. You evaluate just the delta caused by the players.

[rel]

How about breaking out your tabletop wargaming rules of choice?
Or at least adapting some of the common mass combat abstractions from said system.