New UA Sorcerer [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Boverk

2023-04-29, 09:09 PM

I've put a lot of thought into the sorcerer, and I'm a fan for the most part. I'm curious what other subclasses they will have.

For the new spells:

Sorcerous Burst - Very flavorful, love the choice of damage type. If you face a lot of enemies with weaknesses and resistances, it will probably be worthwhile, otherwise damage will be a little low. I like how the subclass feature augments this.
Sorcerous Vitality - Self Heal of 2d6 + cha that clears Blind Deafened and Poisoned...the healing is a little low for a 3rd level spell slot (Cure wounds at 3rd level heals 3d8 + stat) but the Sorcerer shouldn't be as good at healing as clerics.
Sorcery Incarnate - 5th level spell, gives advantage on spell casting attacks, restores 1d4 sorc. points, can double up metamagics...I like this quite a bit, its flavorful, its a nice powered up state, let's you be the Avatar...Also, it looks like subclass features will interact with this, which could be fun (the wing beats is kinda weak, but maybe otherstuff will be fun?)

For metamagic, Twinned Spell got gutted...they need to tweak how this works or else rename it to something else.

I wouldn't mind seeing another metamagic which enhances the sorc. only spells:

Sorc Burst rerolls 5's and 6's, Sorc. Vitality heals you and those around you, Sorc. Incarnate makes metamagics cost half (but this would need to be appropriately expensive in sorc. points)

The cap stone is very strong, but a good fit for Sorc. Casting any 8th or lower spell with no material components fits, and its just really strong overall...I hope they buff other classes rather than nerfing this one

Hurrashane

2023-04-29, 10:28 PM

I'm curious what other subclasses they will have.

My guess is Draconic, wild, storm, and then something new

Draconic and Wild (which might have ways to manipulate their new chaotic class spells) because they were in the 5e PHB, and people like the flavor of the Wild Magic Sorc.

Storm because it's probably one of the least liked sorcerers (from the little data I have; hearsay) and could probably use another pass.

And something new because IIRC they said once that there'd be a college of dance bard in the PHB so I figure for classes that didn't have 4 subclasses in the PHB they might go for redos of the PHB subclasses, retune of something people don't like (if there's room anyway), then something brand new.

Hael

2023-04-29, 10:36 PM

Don’t get me wrong, this is a powerful class now. But it is so functionally similar to the wizard at this point, that it wouldnt be hard to make one of these be a subclass.

The spells arent super strong mechanically, but I at least like the direction of giving unique spells to classes.

Kane0

2023-04-29, 10:54 PM

Still of the opinion Spell Points would be more elegant than spell slots + sorcery points.

The spells seem okay, not great not terrible

Wish as capstone is hilariously strong, I think i'd prefer a lesser 'Anyspell' version, casting any spell up to 5th level

Metamagics seem alright. The imported tashas one still feels overpriced. Twinned should be renamed to Repeat. Still missing one that expands AoE size.

Liking the dragon bloodline changes for the most part, but sad at the loss of permenent wings

Schwann145

2023-04-29, 11:06 PM

I mostly like the Sorcerer changes, tbh.

The addition of more "spells known" is greatly appreciated. You still lack the diversity of a Wizard or a Divine (and now Primal) caster, but you no longer feel like you can't "represent" as a full caster.

Though I'm very strongly against this push to turn class abilities into spells, I think in the Sorc's exception it works well - you have a "well of power" (ie: spell slots) to draw from that fuels your spells, and as a Sorc you can instead draw from that well to do more generic, arcane, things that studied casters can't because they *aren't* magic in the same way that you *are* magic.
•Sorcerous Burst: Feels pretty weak, but it's free and serves to provide an option for, essentially, any enemy type so the added versatility makes up for it. While you and the Wizard will both have Firebolt, you won't feel as bad about it when the party encounters Fire Resistant/Immune enemies, and so fourth.
•Chaos Bolt: Eh. The "lol so random" spell should really be attached to the Wild Magic subclass, not the core Sorcerer. I don't have a problem with the spell, I just think it's inappropriately placed.
•Sorcerous Vitality: I like the take that Sorcerers are more "hearty" than other casters, since magic is part of them instead of a pursuit of knowledge as it is for the other casters. The idea that your magic can be used for more than just blasting, but also can be turned inward for some restoration, fits this theme. Mechanically, it's pretty decent healing for an Arcane caster and the ability to end Blinded/Deafened on yourself is pretty awesome (since they're both so much trouble for casters).
•Arcane Eruption: Builds on the idea that you can just "explode with arcane power" as an alternative to "casting a rote spell," and I'm a fan of that. Power-wise, it seems pretty good too; 6d6 isn't good for 4th level but 6d6+condition feels good. The fact that you'll likely be able to pick from a substantial amount of condition options is great.
•Sorcery Incarnate: Seems like a neat effect. Not sure how desirable it will be with a 5th level cost.

Like with most features that follow this trend, I think Metamagic should include "+Cha Mod" to your total available. At later levels it doesn't matter much, but we all know most gameplay happens at earlier levels, and as Metamagic is *the* draw of the Sorcerer class, it feels bad if you feel like you should be conserving points instead of spending them freely.
Two Metamagic thoughts in particular:
•Additional Metamagic feels like it comes very late at level 13. 11 levels is a long time to wait for your primary feature to expand at all.
•Twin Spell is just wrecked. I understand their concern that it was basically a better version of Quicken Spell in a lot of instances, but the Concentration limitation is just so strict that being able to work around it, even just a little bit, was very fun (such as Haste-ing two people instead of just one). I feel like their primary concern is blasting, so IMO, they should just scrap Twin Spell entirely and rebuild it into it's previous effect but only for spells with Concentration. De/Buffing just feels awful in 5e (because of the fear of repeating CoDzillas from 3.X) but having a little work around again would be great.

Arcane Apothesis is... It's just dumb. Straight dumb. It looks like a bunch of fun to have "perfect Wish," but it's bad for the game. Wish shouldn't exist on anyone's spell list, period. It should be a plot device only.

Pex

2023-04-30, 12:33 AM

People can and will nit pick personal pet peeves, which is fine, but I think overall New Sorcerer is really cool. It's almost perfect, but why it's almost is the angriest reason - the uncalled for not needed decision of nerfing Twin Spell to uselessness. I can't say there's no reason to have it, but to take it means not choosing a different metamagic and they all have more worth.

Everyone is happy with more spells known, but the idea was to give them bloodline spells. What they have is stronger since you can choose your spells freely instead of a specific list swapping one and only one out every level for a restricted list. It's not bad, but ironically this is one situation where WOTC gave too much power and players would have been happy with something less. Bloodline related spells are more immersive, but I won't be unhappy if what they have survives the playtest.

Schwann145

2023-04-30, 12:58 AM

Everyone is happy with more spells known, but the idea was to give them bloodline spells.
Frankly, I think they should do both.

What they have is stronger since you can choose your spells freely instead of a specific list swapping one and only one out every level for a restricted list. It's not bad, but ironically this is one situation where WOTC gave too much power and players would have been happy with something less.
A Cleric or Druid knows every single Divine/Primal spell that WotC decides to print.
A Wizard, by default, knows (10+lvl*2) spells, with a ceiling of "every Arcane spell that WotC decides to print."
A Sorcerer knows... 22+5. Ever. With no way to grow that number.
Even doing my preference of also including Bloodline-specific spells, they're still so far behind the curve you can't even see them anymore. :smalltongue:

Kane0

2023-04-30, 02:01 AM

I dont really care how many spells you can potentially choose from, but I would rather the list available at a given moment hover around a dozen. If that feels limiting then some quick swapping is fine, just not wothin a given scene.

Leon

2023-04-30, 05:07 AM

Storm because it's probably one of the least liked sorcerers (from the little data I have; hearsay) and could probably use another pass.

Storm things almost always disappoint in D&D for some reason. 3.5 had many classes or Prcs that were storm themed and they all pretty much were terrible. One would think it easy to do a good storm based class or subclass but apparently its not in WotCs less than capable hands to do so.

Sindal

2023-04-30, 07:34 AM

Generally quite positive

-Getting our own cantrip that is mutli element freeze up some space for a bit more unity for the rest if that's your thing. And if it's not your thing you can just take firebolt.
-Vitatlity is a neat clense effect. Having the option to remain alive is always good to have on the table.
-Chaos bolt for free is a free spell. May acutally end up using it because lord knows i wouldn't atke it on it's own
-Arcane eruption is another one of those 'it's nice to have this adaptable tool' spell. Decent Aoe damage with a potentially battlefield warping rider. theres better options for damage, but yuo can take them if you want them and hold onto this in your back pocket
-Sorcery incarnate is pretty cool 'stance' upgrade for the sorceror. a 5th levle spell slot is pretty costly but advantage on attack rolls is always nice. Could see some interesting metamagic mixing but hard to say at this time.

It's a sidenote, but the fact that the above are all spells means they interact with metamagic. Which is a nice interclass feature. You could extend your incarnation to keep you from losing yuor form and staying in it longer if need be or quicken your vitality so you can still use your action to dodge or disengage in a rough splot. Empower a sorcerous blast if you REALLY want to fish for that crit explosion (not an amazing use, but the options there)

on that note: The tweats to the meta magci options almost entirely buffs. Goodbye to iconic interactions like twinned haste, but if it's stuff like that that's been keeping us from all the other quality of life power boost stuff we're getting then I will gladly take that offer personally. I'll extend my hastes instead, make DAMN sure i don't lose concentration on my buddy so they don't feel the recoil.

An extra metamagic and getting it earlier is nice and the offical abiltiy to shuffle them on long rests is nice. Thank you.
Extra spells known, thank lord.

Subclasses:
-Its a neat thing that the subclass features appear to interact with the sorceror featured spells. how useful will they be? Hard to tell in white room but again, having the option mingled in is always kudos
-They probably shifted away from the 'bloodline' termnalogy because too many peopel were making jokes about having a bard as a dad...
-Wild magic doesn't seem like it's gonna survive given that a lot of our basic kit is now partially wild magic already.
-Dragonic seems solid as ever.
-I'm personally hoping Divine sorcerer makes the cut, given how popular they. It would be interesting to see how the 'access to divine magic' will be treated if it is
-The other two, i'd wager aberant is getting through (For the psychics out there) and either shadow or clockwork

Pex

2023-04-30, 10:15 AM

-I'm personally hoping Divine sorcerer makes the cut, given how popular they. It would be interesting to see how the 'access to divine magic' will be treated if it is

What made Divine Soul popular was Twin spell. Some people like Extend Spell for Aid, but Twin Healing Word, Twin Guiding Bolt was gold. Twin Revivify Twin Raise Dead is there for desperate wonder, but at high level play there's Twin Heal. NotTwin Spell is garbage lessening the value of Divine Soul, but I think they'll keep Divine Soul anyway. I'm thinking Draconic, Wild Magic, Divine Soul, Shadow.

Sindal

2023-04-30, 11:00 AM

they went out of their way to mentione aberrant mind and clockwork when explaining why they're calling it 'draconic sorcery' instead of 'dragonic bloodline'

So either that's a hint, or it just happens to be the most recenlty released sorcery subclasses

Amechra

2023-04-30, 12:24 PM

Arcane Apotheosis is such a massive power spike at 18th level, and I kinda love it.

Boverk

2023-04-30, 12:29 PM

Arcane Apotheosis is such a massive power spike at 18th level, and I kinda love it.

Same, I hope the other classes are buffed to this level rather than nerfing this.

starwolf

2023-04-30, 01:07 PM

I'd like to see the original twin meta return, however I'd also like to see this new one stick around, but with a new name.
With the targeting restrictions gone you could now 'twin' any spell.
Slot Fireball, followed by a SP Fireball.

Veldrenor

2023-04-30, 01:42 PM

I really dislike NuTwinned for a number of reasons.

They've misjudged Twinned Spell. The 2014 version is one of the better metamagics, sure, but the targeting limitations, sorcerer spell list, and sorcery point cost drastically limited it. It's main strength wasn't two spells in a turn unless you were a Divine Soul. It wasn't the sorcery point discount (1-2 SP, hooray). Both of those were nice, but it's main strength was that it let you concentrate on two spells at the same time, which this new version doesn't do. If they're worried that Twinned was too powerful and stepped on Quickened's toes, then they should focus nuTwinned on the double-concentration aspect.
The circumstances where NuTwin as written will be useful are fairly niche. The battlefield changes round-to-round, and D&D battles typically last 3-5 rounds, so how often are you in a situation where you want to drop the same leveled spell two rounds in a row? T1 Fireball is great when there are a whole bunch of enemies and they're all clumped together, but T2 they'll be scattered, some will be dead, some will be injured badly enough that it's more efficient to mop up with cantrips/your allies' attacks. T1 Dominate Person takes out a threat, T2 you don't want to be casting it again unless you've either failed a concentration save or the T1 casting failed (in which case Heightened on T1 would have been a better, more efficient use of your time/SP).
The sorcery point discount is nice, but perhaps overvalued given the metamagic's limited niche. This metamagic saves you a maximum of 2 sorcery points, and it only gives you that discount if you already have sorcery points. If you're trying to convert slots mid-battle it doesn't really save you anything. If you're out of SP and want to twin a fireball you either have to spend multiple rounds before the fireball converting lower-level slots, break a higher level slot (in which case why not upcast Fireball?), or you have to convert a 3rd-level slot into sorcery points which is the same as just casting a second fireball normally.
NuTwin's templating feels weird. Most metamagics are about what's happening now. I'm casting Fireball now but I want cold, so I transmute it. I'm casting Charm Person now but don't want to be noticed, so I subtle it. I cast Chromatic Orb but it's about to miss, so I seeking it. NuTwin is more about what happened in the past than what's happening now. I'm casting Fireball now, but I can't Twin it because I didn't cast Fireball last turn.
The name is wrong. "Twin" is associated with having two of the same thing at the same time, which this isn't.

Personally, I'd make two metamagics. Twinned would let you cast and concentrate on a spell that you're already concentrating on, and NuTwin would become:
Echoing. When you cast a spell of 1st-5th level, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level. Once before your next Long Rest you can cast the spell again at the same level without expending a spell slot.

I don't care for Arcane Apotheosis. I dislike Wish as a spell that players can learn. In stories, wishes are rare. They're something you quest for. They're rewards of rare cosmic circumstance or for pure-intentioned desires. They should not be something that players can wield on a daily basis. I might be ok with it if Wish were renamed and were limited to replicating an 8th-level or lower spell.

Otherwise, I'm on board with pretty much everything else. I'd like Sorcery Incarnate better as an ability than as a spell solely because it's going to suck when it gets dispelled, but that's not a huge issue.

RSP

2023-04-30, 03:39 PM

Contrary to what’s often posted, I’ve never really thought spells known was the Sorc problem, rather it’s everything running off the same limited resource (Sorc Points/Spell Slots).

Moving Subclass features to spells only exacerbates this issue.

Further, I’ll second Kane0 in they should make Sorcerers default run off Spell Points - it’s a slight boost in efficiency over Font Of Magic, which actually helps their resource issue.

It also gives them a distinct identity apart from Wizards.

Kane0

2023-04-30, 04:10 PM

Looking at Sorcery Incarnate a bit more closely

5th level, action to cast, uses concentration. This better be good, because thats automatically competing with the likes of Wall of Force
You get 1d4 SP, which doesnt cover the cost of the spellbut rather reduces its overall cost down to a 3rd or 4th.
You get advantage on attack rolls. Attack roll spells stop around 2nd level, so this will really only be benefitting sorcerous burst, chaos bolt and maybe something like an upcast, metamagicked scorching ray by the time you get access to this.
You can use a second metamagic when casting. Given you are already concentrating on this spell which cost you a slot and an action, you could have just cast two spells with a metamagic each anyways. Also, Empower already lets you do this.

Upon further inspection it looks really niche. Id have made it a bonus action to cast, or removed the concentration in favor of manually extending with a bonus action out to 10 mins or even an hour like with the new barbarian rage.

Or just remove the SP generation and drop down to a lower level spell. Chaos bolt as a 1st, recovery as a 2nd (the healing is tiny and lesser resotration is a 2nd), incarnate as 3rd and eruption as 4th.

Amechra

2023-04-30, 04:24 PM

sambojin

2023-04-30, 09:08 PM

I really like the new sorcerer. It seems to "fit" into DnD1 with everything we've seen so far, outside the Wizard class (which I think they flubbed, because giving wizards more options for spells and preps is a "bad thing" imo).

Draconic seems fine as the base subclass to judge it from. A bit of HP/ AC, a resistance, a touch more damage with their chosen element, all good. Adding a few things to a spell I may not use is weird, but not a problem. You're a good full caster by then anyway. Use them or don't, it's auto-prepped anyway. Essentially unlimited mini-dragons breaths at lvl10 isn't bad (and you can Empower or Seeking it, I think, to reroll damage for 6's, or hits for hits. I'm almost certain you're not meant to be able to Distant it though (10lvls*30'+15'basic cone? 315' cone dragon breath? Probably not intended for 1 Sorc point)).

Agree that the lvl13 +3metamagics comes on a bit late, but you've already got three that you can change every day, and they're good, so it's not a huge problem. I'd probably give them +1 at lvl7, and +2 at lvl13, just so it feels like more of a progression, rather than big lumps or not-at-all. Fits into most campaigns easier.

I'd weirdly enough give "you also get the benefit of a full meal and water" with each use of Sorcerous Vitality. Or maybe "lower exhaustion level by two levels". So you're literally living off magic. But I understand why they didn't, it might hamper survival campaigns, I just like the idea of it. A catch-all for conditions, healing, and exhaustion, not great at any, but you've always got it there for any troubles ailing you. Arcane doesn't get healing or lesser restoration or anti-exhaust, but you do as a Sorc, but as a lvl3 slot. Seems fine. Really easy to have a celestial subclass just add +lvl+2 healing and have it be 60' range too. Covers both current and future stuff, and is useful in many campaign types.

I really like Arcane Eruption at lvl7. You should get a range of options each casting, and even a low roll is a good roll (incapacitated is brutal as a rider on a 1). Just really good design as a class ability spell in general. Con save is annoying, but it's a lot easier to use as a balancing tool. Can be meta'd for disadvantage vs one target as well, so still fine vs bbegs :)

The auto-preps are good enough and variable enough to see use, so you've always got something to do. Just slightly less constrained on spells known, even if none of the class spells are spectacular, you've always got a backup option, no matter what you did choose to learn. I guess you're the "damage caster", so this does that, while letting you do other things as well.

Still got "relearn a different spell" on level-up, so you can broaden your higher level spells a bit, or reshuffle your list a little if you misread the campaign type, or your spells known compared to the sort of Sorc you want to be. Alongside more spells known in general, this is good, and the extras known early might be vital for a well-rounded caster.

Overall, I think Sorc is probably going to be my new favourite class for casting in 1DnD from what I've seen. No DM fiat needed, doesn't feel cheesy, plenty of options on the fly, and just enough spell and metamagic versatility that I won't feel too locked-in to either a singular path or a "you must have just these spells to function in a wide range of situations" like a Sorc used too.

Balanced, but powerful, but nice. Probably the best thing WotC has done on a UA for this so far. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good.

(Pretty sure I'd go Extended, Subtle and Transmuted as my standard metas, because they fit pretty much every situation. But I'd probably swap 1-2 of them on any given day, just for funsies. Careful fireballs, heightened saves or sucks, doing weird stuff with distant cantrips, etc. There's enough ways to have plenty of fun, doing what you do, as a Sorc)

GeoffWatson

2023-04-30, 09:34 PM

Kane0

2023-04-30, 11:23 PM

Can you rephrase that last point, Kane0? I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.

Going off what I can see, though... there's a world of difference between being able to use Empower + another metamagic option and being able to double-up on metamagic in general.

(Also, I feel like you're being a little dismissive of an upcast, metamagic'd Scorching Ray...)

Derp, I misread. It's a bonus action and not a full action to cast. Okay that makes it a little better, you can still get a sorcerous burst or something off on the same turn, with advantage even.
But it still eats up your concentration, so if your plan was to use this to double metamagic a killer spell that also happens to use concentration then you're dropping sorcery incarnate as soon as you do so, burning a turn and a 5th level slot to perform this little maneuver. It's not like you get a huge window to pre-cast this with that 1 minute duration.

I think it would be better off as a 3rd level spell without the sorcery point reimbursement (which thinking about it directly disincentivises you casting this when you are at full SP, so early in the adventuring day when you are more likely to have that 5th level slot still).

Oh nah, upcasting Scorching Ray is great fun in the right circumstances. I'm just pointing out that attack roll spells just die off after tier 1, so the amount of use that part will give you is limited (which also applies to the (overpriced) seeking spell metamagic, but that can be swapped out with a LR)

sambojin

2023-04-30, 11:29 PM

Kinda really liking the Draconic lvl10 ability. Or rather, it at lvl11. I know it's not great, but an attack roll 15' cone, exploding 6's off 3d6 (potentially with rerolls off Empowered) does sound like a fun little "you've just got this ability regardless" thing. Dumb, and not super damaging, but about as good as anything martials could ever get (plus you've got spells too).

Psyren

2023-04-30, 11:36 PM

My only remaining issues with Sorcerer:

1) They present it as a prepared spells caster when really it's still a spells-known caster, because you can only change your preparations on level up - and even then, only one at a time. I would let them swap out a few more than one on level up (maybe Cha mod?) to alleviate the punishment that they were worried about for inexperienced players.

2) Twin Spell was fine, it didn't need to be nerfed so drastically, and its unique functionality of double concentration should be preserved. The design note says it's undercosted relative to creating spell slots with those points, and that's an easy fix if true - just make it a bit more expensive. Say, 2+spell level sorcery points to twin something instead of +spell level.

they went out of their way to mentione aberrant mind and clockwork when explaining why they're calling it 'draconic sorcery' instead of 'dragonic bloodline'

So either that's a hint, or it just happens to be the most recenlty released sorcery subclasses

They're not the most recent, Lunar is

sambojin

2023-04-30, 11:48 PM

Agreed with both of these. We always fixed Sorcs in 5e with 2 floating known spell slots per day at lvl1, and 3 at lvl11 (or earlier) and it worked fine. Even with their lack of known spells or changeable metas compared to 1dnd.

I'd probably give them something like that. Sorta something like lvl5 "Sorcerous Whimsy": you can cast Memorise Spell for free, once per day, during a short rest. Or something. I hate that mechanic anyway, the above was easier and worked fine. One free floating would work well in 1DnD, whether it's a quick levelling campaign, a slow, a 5min workday, or a long and grindy. Just maybe make it a 1/day on a short rest, instead of on a long.

But Cha-mod changed spells on level-up works fine too. Not thematically, but it works. Seems like a lot, where-as 2-3 floating never did each day. Weird.

But I'm pretty sure Sorcs will work fine in 1dnd. Twin was nice though, and there was very little reason to remove it, or change it that much. (There are less buffs on the Arcane list now though. Some did get shifted to Divine or Primal only. Which means there's even less reasons for Twinned to be nerfed).

Hurrashane

2023-04-30, 11:55 PM

I didn't even think about that by having Arcane Eruption, sorcerous burst, vitality and sorcery incarnate be spells they're subject to metamagic.

Extended Sorcery Incarnate might be pretty good. Hard to break 20 minute long buff, could last from one combat to the next.

The draconic sorcerer using a Subtle Sorcerous Burst Draconic Exhalation to really be like a dragon. Empowered and careful on it would be pretty good too.

Careful arcane Eruption, distant arcane Eruption, subtle Arcane Eruption? Just bam! You're all incapacitated now and don't know who did it!

sambojin

2023-05-01, 12:10 AM

Just Empowered Arcane Eruption is pretty sweet. Need damage? Reroll. Need a particular status effect? Reroll. You'll probably be at +3-4Cha by then, so you've got reasonable chances to get something close to what you want, for 1Sorc point.

6d6 damage, 3-4 damage rerolls, a condition effect chart coming off damage rolls, is very good. Not *great*, but it's a catch-all mini-fireball+ lockdown, that you always know.

Works with other metas too, but Empowered is really nice. Change the damage and/or the rider. Like I said, a really good design of a class spell, that's internally consistent and pretty awesome as well.

(The rider is until the end of your next turn as well. Which is amazing. It's actually one of the few things I'd use the new Twinned meta on, to stack debuffs like nothing else could. Con saves, yes, but I do save a Sorc point.
Strangely upcastable too, for a smidge more damage, and more reliability of condition rider. Every extra damage die just makes incapacitated more likely, especially Empowered. And who doesn't like free no-hits-back from an enemy for a turn or two?

Stats/dice wise, if you reroll 2's and 3's, hoping for 1's 5's and 6's with Empowered, it's a pretty amazing spell. Damage-wise or condition inducing wise. Considering getting another 2 or 3 isn't a *bad* thing on your choice of riders for the spell. It has variance, but almost every variance is *good* as a 1 action spell, even without going for specific results with rerolls.

It's sorta funny that you only want 1 damage roll of 1, and then the rest being 4-6. But that's mathable, even with rerolls. But you only want 1 of them. But even if you don't snag it, 2's to 5's are fine. And 6 is great at damage. Lol)

Kane0

2023-05-01, 12:53 AM

Extended Sorcery Incarnate might be pretty good. Hard to break 20 minute long buff, could last from one combat to the next.

Nah, two minutes.

The draconic sorcerer using a Subtle Sorcerous Burst Draconic Exhalation to really be like a dragon. Empowered and careful on it would be pretty good too.

Careful wouldn't help, since you make an attack against everyone in the cone and careful saves people from saving throws.

Hurrashane

2023-05-01, 01:08 AM

Nah, two minutes.

Careful wouldn't help, since you make an attack against everyone in the cone and careful saves people from saving throws.

You're right on both counts. I misread the duration on Incarnate and forgot that careful was just for saves.

Making incarnate harder to break is nice

sambojin

2023-05-01, 01:45 AM

Still, Extended will be nice if we get Summon Draconic Spirit, because dragons. Ridable ones, by lvl9.

But even simple stuff like Expeditious Retreat or Fog Cloud or Jump or Disguise Self or Enlarge/Reduce or Invisibility. There's stuff, regardless, of what you want your Sorc to do. Nothing like 2x duration, for goods on a spell. Just about every metamagic has a truly powerful thing to do, and a fair few less powerful things to do as well.

It's kinda weird. Sorcerer is the "not f'd" one on this UA. It's kinda fine. Warlock players don't like the new warlocks. No-one likes the new Wizards, because wizards have always been broken, and still are with this UA, maybe even more than they ever were (I'd just Hard Ban Wizards, and be done with it. Want to cast magic? Here's your Sorcerer....).
Meh. It's easier and better. Sorcs break things, but not your world. Martials don't get "Make your own permanent magic weapon, choose your thingies". Sorcerers don't get permanent spells, they need to use resources every time (or maybe cast Wish at lvl17-18, for it to be "a thing" in your world, which is probably at about the level a character can start naming spells after themselves).

Sorcs are cool, and pretty damn powerful, but without extra bs. Yay!

(Yes, WotC is very broken to everything that isn't a "Wizard". It's a horribly and obviously narcarcistic thing in their corporate culture, because they seem to think they are "Wizards", and everything else is beneath them. It's a pity.
Plus, we don't buy playing cards, that have 2,000-800,000,000 times the value, or more, than their cost of printing, on them. F* MtG. Its a C* of a thing. And hugely predatory on pricing. Worse than any mobile game could ever do, on pay-to-win.
And Wizards of the Coast, they don't like doing good work, to sell an actually good product, in the market that it would be sold in. This is a Hasbro thing as well, so extended rage upon them too, is reasonable)

Jerrykhor

2023-05-01, 03:21 AM

sambojin

2023-05-01, 04:55 AM

Meh, when you see the interactions with spells, and metamagics, you'll probably do a second take on it.

It's not like Twinned spell was all a Sorc was before this. And this is way more for a Sorc than it was in 5e.

(Hey, they're better than Druids or Clerics as casters, so there's that. Waaaayyyyyy better. And good enough that they'll probably just get tweaks, not massive nerfs or rewrites. Yay!
So we've got, ummm, Rangers and Sorcs that are ok so far, and don't need significant changes. Ok, Ranger needs subclass changes. But other than that, ok'ish. Well done WotC!)

Sindal

2023-05-01, 06:30 AM

I find it interesting that twinned being changed is what is being the deal breaker.
Though I suppose a lot of the discourse that's shown up for almost all the classes is 'this is no longer as beneficial as it was, or is different to the way it fundamentally functioned'

On a class level the sorceror is 'arguably' much better with what it can access now, which means peopel REALLY liked the twinned spell metamagic...

Kane0

2023-05-01, 07:25 AM

I wasnt all that broken up about it. It did in some way break the 'no more than one levelled spell per turn' thing (despite really being more like '+1 target' much like some upcast spells), but I think this version deserves a more accurate name like 'Repeat spell'. Not that i'd use it, but its valid for conserving resources when you're reasonay sure you're going to be casting the same thing multiple times in the one combat

KorvinStarmast

2023-05-01, 07:36 AM

I can cast wish and no suffer the risks/consequences
Bad idea, they over corrected

Spells known at 20 = 22. Good change.

Domain Spells: hmm, pretty OK

Meta magic changes: so far not a fan, but I'll look through them again.

They will have draconic, wild, storm and either shadow or divine soul. (but I suspect Divine Soul may have to wait for a splat book)

Leaning into elemental schtick: OK with me.

Further comments after another review.

IsaacsAlterEgo

2023-05-01, 07:55 AM

I would much rather sorcerers get additional spells based on their subclass, rather than just more spells known, as it opens the possibility for having fitting spells on other spell lists granted to them, but any improvement is good, I suppose.

Apotheosis is broken. A lot of DMs ban Wish anyway, so it's going to be very unfortunate if you manage to get to such a high level as a sorcerer in such a campaign. I'd prefer another ability that doesn't break campaigns wide open with no consequences on the players part, personally.

Twinned should probably go back to how it was. I don't think increasing the cost is really even necessary, twinned isn't exactly broken as it currently stands and it's one of the most unique mechanics of the Sorcerer that no other class can really replicate.

Psyren

2023-05-01, 09:35 AM

I plan on downvoting NuTwin, but even if they don't change it I'm much happier with this sorcerer than the previous one. And even though I failed to get my gish vision for it, Draconic got hugely buffed. 10+Cha+Dex AC is much better than 13+Dex (it'll be the same at level 1, and starts pulling ahead as early as 4); Elemental Affinity is passive instead of needing sorcery points to fuel it for an hour at a time; and Dragon Wings no longer destroys your clothing. You lose Draconic Presence, but that sucked anyway, and you get Draconic Exhalation in exchange.

I also don't mind the Wish capstone. Sorcerers ARE magic, especially by the time they hit 18th level.

Hurrashane

2023-05-01, 11:40 AM

And even though I failed to get my gish vision for it, Draconic got hugely buffed. 10+Cha+Dex AC is much better than 13+Dex (it'll be the same at level 1, and starts pulling ahead as early as 4); Elemental Affinity is passive instead of needing sorcery points to fuel it for an hour at a time; and Dragon Wings no longer destroys your clothing. You lose Draconic Presence, but that sucked anyway, and you get Draconic Exhalation in exchange.

On it's own it can't gish, but a Sorcerer/Fighter multiclass that uses the draconic sorcerer would be more durable than other arcane casters. If Battlemasters will still key off various attributes they could make good use of the cha too. And there's also Sorcadin which is made tougher through Draconic sorc.

Psyren

2023-05-01, 11:42 AM

Right, or they could dip bladelock for Cha to hit and damage and Extra Attack, and more casting progression than fighter 5. I was hoping for dragony claws though.

verbatim

2023-05-01, 12:20 PM

Storm things almost always disappoint in D&D for some reason. 3.5 had many classes or Prcs that were storm themed and they all pretty much were terrible. One would think it easy to do a good storm based class or subclass but apparently its not in WotCs less than capable hands to do so.

I feel like there is room to do it right here. Perhaps some sort of central pushing ability that scales up how far you push and how big of an enemy you can push based on sorc level.

pb # of times per long rest = pb * 10ft push.
1 sp to do it more after you run out of normal uses.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-01, 01:16 PM

I've never reliably played a Sorcerer in 5e, they always felt too limiting. But here's my thoughts on the 1DND acknowledging I'm just looking at it, not comparing it to 5e.

For Spells:

Chaos burst is fun but it's specifically Wild Magic, not sure why it's everywhere, but it's powerful and interesting. Much like Guiding Bolt I think there's enough there to make it worth considering over a Cantrip.

Sorcerous Burst: Love this. Exploding Dice makes it occasionally devastating and picking damage type solves a lot of issues I've had in the past where there's no real way to just pick an element. Makes Sorcerers desirable if you want to be a "Lightning mage" or the like.

Sorcerous Vitality: Neutral, a spell to heal is nice, it seems functional. Gives Sorcerer's a bit more self sustainability.

Sorcery Incarnate: I like the idea, will have to playtest to give more details.

Class itself: Looks the same at base, More Cantrips and spells known is a solution to why I would never play the class before. Like that we can experiment with metamagic more. Be happy to shift through and be able to change if it's not working out.

Love Wish, so having it at capstone is cool IMO. Love that you can't lose it and that at least 1/day you essentially have an open 1-8th level spellslot for literally anything.

ZRN

2023-05-01, 03:00 PM

I would much rather sorcerers get additional spells based on their subclass, rather than just more spells known, as it opens the possibility for having fitting spells on other spell lists granted to them, but any improvement is good, I suppose.

Agreed here. Like this probably means that when they revamp Clockwork Soul and Aberrant Mind they'll get rid of the extra spells, and some of those spells were cool flavorful things NOT on the arcane list. I also like the idea of sorcerer subclass shaping a lot of how you play - a draconic sorcerer should feel a lot different than an aberrant mind, and having a chunk of your spells come from a subclass list helps with that.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-01, 04:46 PM

Hot garbage. They have absolutely gutted Twinned Spell, and for some reason they thought its great to design Draconic around rubbish spells like Sorcery Incarnate. Its like if Tempest Cleric was designed around Witchbolt.

Actually they already lost me at the new Twinned, so i can't be bothered.

Sorry, just read this. Won't comment on Twin Spell since, again, haven't played with it in 5e to come from a place of any real experience. But I have used the Draconic Bloodline subclass on another class (House rule).

Let's look at the differences and similarities.

Level 1/Level 3: Both get +1 HP/Level. Your AC is better, instead of 13+Dex you have 10+Dex+Cha. You are able to communicate with all dragons, but no longer have Expertise when dealing with dragons. All in all, you are mechanically stronger.

Level 6: Same ability but now you just always have resistance instead of having to spend SP on it. All in all, mechanically stronger.

Level 14: Previously you got wings, period, and flight. Now you have wings when you are using a specific 5th level spell and also gain free damage each round. Mechanically stronger in combat but I'd prefer keeping the wings all the time personally. I will let PCs choose but personally would push to keep just the wings instead of the new setup.

The Actual change.
Now at level 10 your standard attack cantrip, which at this point is 2d6+Cha can be a multiattack against everything in a 15' Cone.
Before at level 18 you got a 5 SP cost Fear or Charm effect.

Are we really lamenting that we get a version of Multi Attack at level 10 instead of an Expensive Fear/Charm as a Capstone?

How many other PCs can guarantee an attack on realistically 2-3 but up to 8 or maybe more creatures depending on how the Cone is interpreted at level 10? In one more level a Warlock can hit 3 targets for 1d10+Cha. A Fighter can hit 3 targets for up to 2d6+Str. At level 11 the Dragon Sorc can hit 2-8 Targets for 3d6+Cha.

They have a spammable, functioning breath weapon.

Like, I have a 1DND Tomelock I want to playtest that is an Amethyst Gem dragon and reflavoring all my EB's and such as force. Just now reading this I might run the Sorc instead.

RSP

2023-05-01, 06:07 PM

Psyren

2023-05-01, 06:21 PM

Chaos burst is fun but it's specifically Wild Magic, not sure why it's everywhere, but it's powerful and interesting.

Per Crawford, there's a bit of chaos/wildness/uncontrollability built into every sorcerer. He cited this passage:

"Sorcerers are rare in the world, and it’s unusual to find a sorcerer who is not involved in the adventuring life in some way. People with magical power seething in their veins soon discover that the power doesn’t like to stay quiet. A sorcerer’s magic wants to be wielded, and it has a tendency to spill out in unpredictable ways if it isn’t called on."

I imagine that unpredictability will be much more pronounced in WM sorcerers but now there's some of it in all of them.

So any party with an 18 Sorc is going to be Resistant to every damage type, given a week of downtime:

“You grant up to ten creatures that you can see resistance to a damage type you choose.”

This used to be an interesting option given the risk of losing Wish, now it’ll just be a given…

You still undergo the rest of the Stress. The other effects are pretty debilitating if you're in an 18th level campaign, unless your DM is giving you a pile of downtime to do nothing, in which case... why is the campaign still going anyway?

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-01, 06:30 PM

So any party with an 18 Sorc is going to be Resistant to every damage type, given a week of downtime:

“You grant up to ten creatures that you can see resistance to a damage type you choose.”

This used to be an interesting option given the risk of losing Wish, now it’ll just be a given…

So first, is your party getting Damage resistance at level 18 really significant there? They're already practically gods and unstoppable without severe threats.

Secondly, you act like Wish didn't unmake all challenge and risk from the get go. Have you thought through what you can already do risk free?

With a combination of Mighty Fortress, Druid Grove, Temple of the Gods, Hallow, Forbiddance, Private Sanctum, and Guards and Wards, you can take a little slice of creation and make it so permanently yours that very little short of a deity will be able to so much as knock on your door unless you want it to. Awaken all the nearby plants so you can have conversation partners as you while away the millennia growing clones and wondering why anyone ever resorted to something as awful as lichdom to achieve immortality.

As a level 17 party. The only thing ever at risk is your magical items and equipment. Not your lives, not your personal safety or ability to be safe in your home... I have a level 18 Genie Lock in an active campaign. The only thing of concern to him is potential loss of some pretty potent magic items and Outright threat on his child's life. Even then, the Child is functionally immortal, the genie just doesn't want said child suffering pain or stress.

OvisCaedo

2023-05-01, 06:38 PM

You know what DOES sound significant at 18th level? Getting to cast Hex for free! Now THAT would be a gamebreaking capstone. Luckily everything else is in-line with Apotheosis.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-01, 07:14 PM

You know what DOES sound significant at 18th level? Getting to cast Hex for free! Now THAT would be a gamebreaking capstone. Luckily everything else is in-line with Apotheosis.

Not sure why you're trying to derail a Sorcerer thread to complain about the Warlock but... Sure. Let's look at all the Capstones and see the power scale.

Barbarian: +2 Str and Con with maxes of 22 in each.
Bard: 2 extra Bardic Inspiration Dice per Encounter.
Cleric: Summon God 1/2-8 days
Druid: 1 Extra Channel Nature per Encounter.
Fighter: 4 attacks a round, so an added 2d6+Str possibly.
Monk: Unknown
Paladin: 1 extra Channel Divinity per Encounter.
Ranger: Hunter's Mark deals 1d10 instead of 1d6.
Rogue: 1 Nat 20 Skill check per Short Rest
Sorcerer: Wish with boosts
Warlock: Hex at will, so an added
Wizard: 2 extra 3rd level spells per day.

Hmm, So... It's almost like the level 18's aren't balanced against each other but instead towards the class itself.
3 Classes get Damage boosts: Fighter, Ranger, Warlock
1 Gets full Stat Increases: Barbarian
5 Get super uses of their iconic abilities a few times a day: Bard, Druid, Paladin, Rogue, Wizard
2 Break Reality: Cleric, Sorcerer.

RSP

2023-05-01, 08:51 PM

So first, is your party getting Damage resistance at level 18 really significant there? They're already practically gods and unstoppable without severe threats.

Secondly, you act like Wish didn't unmake all challenge and risk from the get go. Have you thought through what you can already do risk free?

You can cast any spell, yes. But if you’re not being challenged at 18th level, then your DM isn’t being creative enough. Giving the party+pets (up to 10 total) resistance to all is a significant buff for the party, however, it essentially just makes the DM’s job tougher, unless running a premade.

You still undergo the rest of the Stress. The other effects are pretty debilitating if you're in an 18th level campaign, unless your DM is giving you a pile of downtime to do nothing, in which case... why is the campaign still going anyway?

The rest of the stress, after a LR, is Str 3. Not great, but, again, not a show stopper if getting the entire party, and probably some pets, damage resistance across the spectrum. This is accomplished with 13 days of downtime.

A gauntlet of ogres strength makes it so your strength doesn’t even drop.

Psyren

2023-05-01, 09:10 PM

So all you need is a highly specific magic item, one of your attunement slots, and 13 days of the BBEG doing nothing in a level 18 campaign. Practically free!

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-01, 10:21 PM

You can cast any spell, yes. But if you’re not being challenged at 18th level, then your DM isn’t being creative enough. Giving the party+pets (up to 10 total) resistance to all is a significant buff for the party, however, it essentially just makes the DM’s job tougher, unless running a premade.

And how is giving everyone resistance a bad making the DM's job tougher but making it so the DM is completely incapable of killing the PCs, sneaking into their base with anything dangerous or posing any real danger to them not bad making the DM's job tougher?

Theodoxus

2023-05-01, 11:12 PM

Arcane Apotheosis is such a massive power spike at 18th level, and I kinda love it.

Same, I hope the other classes are buffed to this level rather than nerfing this.

I see the PunPun players :smallwink:

Looking at Sorcery Incarnate a bit more closely

5th level, action to cast, uses concentration. This better be good, because thats automatically competing with the likes of Wall of Force
You get 1d4 SP, which doesnt cover the cost of the spellbut rather reduces its overall cost down to a 3rd or 4th.
You get advantage on attack rolls. Attack roll spells stop around 2nd level, so this will really only be benefitting sorcerous burst, chaos bolt and maybe something like an upcast, metamagicked scorching ray by the time you get access to this.
You can use a second metamagic when casting. Given you are already concentrating on this spell which cost you a slot and an action, you could have just cast two spells with a metamagic each anyways. Also, Empower already lets you do this.

Upon further inspection it looks really niche. Id have made it a bonus action to cast, or removed the concentration in favor of manually extending with a bonus action out to 10 mins or even an hour like with the new barbarian rage.

Or just remove the SP generation and drop down to a lower level spell. Chaos bolt as a 1st, recovery as a 2nd (the healing is tiny and lesser restoration is a 2nd), incarnate as 3rd and eruption as 4th.

Or, just use Arcane Apotheosis to wish all those annoying aspects away, for 'free'.

Seriously, not having wish-borne stress is just broken good.

Sulicius

2023-05-02, 12:56 AM

Does the sorcerer need to be stronger?

Wasn’t it a problem that spellcasters are too strong and martials too weak? This would be the chance to rein their power in, right?

Kane0

2023-05-02, 01:13 AM

Does the sorcerer need to be stronger?

Wasn’t it a problem that spellcasters are too strong and martials too weak? This would be the chance to rein their power in, right?

Yes, but as predicted the solution the devs went with was make the sorc better like all the other casters rather than bring all the other casters back closer to the sorc.

PhoenixPhyre

2023-05-02, 02:40 PM

Yes, but as predicted the solution the devs went with was make the sorc better like all the other casters rather than bring all the other casters back closer to the sorc.

Yeah. It's obvious that the devs want casters to be stronger and martials to be weaker (relative to casters). Which is one reason I have little desire to do anything with OneD&D.

Psyren

2023-05-02, 03:21 PM

Seriously, not having wish-borne stress is just broken good.

You do still suffer the Stress, it just won't stop you from losing the ability to cast the spell.

I wouldn't mind if it had a hard cooldown built in like the Cleric capstone though.

Does the sorcerer need to be stronger?

Wasn’t it a problem that spellcasters are too strong and martials too weak? This would be the chance to rein their power in, right?

The sorcerers having meager spells known and a truncated list wasn't actually weakening them, it just meant every sorcerer picked the same spells unless they weren't trying to optimize.

But yes, if you're looking for martials and spellcasters to be on the same footing, that's not really the kind of game D&D is.

PhoenixPhyre

2023-05-02, 03:54 PM

But yes, if you're looking for martials and spellcasters to be on the same footing, that's not really the kind of game D&D is.

And this is an attitude I abhor and one reason that OneD&D holds zero interest for me. The oozing caster supremacy, as if casters being supreme was the natural and just order of things, somehow inherently obvious. The attitude that some people should just "win the game" (so to speak) at character creation because they chose the right class, unlike all those peasants who chose martials.

And the sad part is that, unlike 4e, the devs now seem to share that attitude. Whether consciously or unconsciously. Every good thing must be a spell; if it's not a spell it's at best a QoL change and must be held strictly within narrow bounds, every "buff" balanced (at least in part) by a nerf. Whereas wizards and sorcerers just get absurd new strength with no counterveiling nerfs. Buffing the strong. Yes. That's how balance and working systems are achieved. Pour more power into and remove more limits from those who are already breaking the system over their knees when played with an eye toward power. While making marginal changes to anyone who doesn't cast spells or even nerfing them (poor rogues).

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-02, 04:01 PM

And this is an attitude I abhor and one reason that OneD&D holds zero interest for me. The oozing caster supremacy, as if casters being supreme was the natural and just order of things, somehow inherently obvious. The attitude that some people should just "win the game" (so to speak) at character creation because they chose the right class, unlike all those peasants who chose martials.

You're putting a LOT of extra emphasis and emotion that no one here has presented...

The reality is that there would be a fundamental difference between someone who can warp reality and someone who has mastered the sword. With the exception of 4e sorta the game has always had that disparity. The issue is that the game's not designed around "In a vacuum is the fighter as strong as the wizard?" It's designed around the party balance and dynamic. The Fighter can't re-shape reality, but they can dish out a lot of damage and force the attention of the monster being fought. That type of thing. I wouldn't want to be in a party without a martial, rather that's a Barbarian, Fighter, Artificer, etc.

Can't recall if you're a CR fan or not, but just looking at the PCs there. Who's stronger, Vax, Caleb or Orym? Not by the level they're currently at but in a theoretical 20 level set up. The answer is Caleb without question. But are Vax and Orym important to their respective parties? Are they less impactful overall or fun to play or integral because they're not as mechanically powerful in a white room?

It's such a weird thing to stick on, because it only exists if someone puts it there.

Psyren

2023-05-02, 04:13 PM

And this is an attitude I abhor and one reason that OneD&D holds zero interest for me.

Does 5e also not interest you? Because what I said isn't some new thing unique to OneD&D by any stretch of the imagination :smallconfused:

Can't recall if you're a CR fan or not, but just looking at the PCs there. Who's stronger, Vax, Caleb or Orym? Not by the level they're currently at but in a theoretical 20 level set up. The answer is Caleb without question. But are Vax and Orym important to their respective parties? Are they less impactful overall or fun to play or integral because they're not as mechanically powerful in a white room?

It's such a weird thing to stick on, because it only exists if someone puts it there.

Right. When I look at CR / LVM, everyone gets to contribute and everyone gets to win. Just because Keyleth and Pike and even Scanlan have more raw power than Vax and Grog and Percy, doesn't mean the latter don't get their chances to shine.

PhoenixPhyre

2023-05-02, 04:33 PM

You're putting a LOT of extra emphasis and emotion that no one here has presented...

The reality is that there would be a fundamental difference between someone who can warp reality and someone who has mastered the sword. With the exception of 4e sorta the game has always had that disparity. The issue is that the game's not designed around "In a vacuum is the fighter as strong as the wizard?" It's designed around the party balance and dynamic. The Fighter can't re-shape reality, but they can dish out a lot of damage and force the attention of the monster being fought. That type of thing. I wouldn't want to be in a party without a martial, rather that's a Barbarian, Fighter, Artificer, etc.

Can't recall if you're a CR fan or not, but just looking at the PCs there. Who's stronger, Vax, Caleb or Orym? Not by the level they're currently at but in a theoretical 20 level set up. The answer is Caleb without question. But are Vax and Orym important to their respective parties? Are they less impactful overall or fun to play or integral because they're not as mechanically powerful in a white room?

It's such a weird thing to stick on, because it only exists if someone puts it there.

The bold is exactly the kind of argument by assumption I find repellant. The idea that casters are intrinsically "warping reality" and martials are just "mastering the sword". That's presumption. And unnecessary presumption. It's exactly the "well, but magic is allowed to break the rules" attitude. But only some magic, that tiny sliver of all magic called "spells".

In a fantasy world like D&D, everything is "magic". I find no conceptual reason why someone who trains their body and their mind one way should have necessarily different power levels than those that train their body and mind a different way. Spells are not special. There is no reason in the underlying fantasy why they should be so, other than the legions of wizard-supremacists who take it as their gods-given right to do everything and who take not getting massive buffs at every turn as "game-breaking" nerfs.

And it's not just conceptual--this attitude poisons worlds and development, and spirals over time. It's also incredibly deceptive--everything written in the system presumes that a level X person of class Y should be comparable to a level X person of class Z. That martial options are just as valid, from a system/encounter/scenario design perspective as caster options. What you and Psyren are saying, in essence, is that the devs are inherently lying about that. That they've told everyone that martials are equal, but with their fingers crossed. Some animals are more equal, it seems. And that's toxic.

If they came out and said "yes, casters are supposed to be more powerful and supposed to get all the cool toys without limits, while martials play cleanup and servant" (aka Ars Magica), that might work. But they haven't. So saying "D&D assumes that casters are more powerful and martials can suck it up" is not actually born out. And I'd bet that if you asked the devs if the classes were supposed to be basically[1] balanced, they'd say yes, they are. That's why this attitude is so toxic--it creeps in and poisons everything.

Edit: As far as I'm concerned, either everyone should be able to warp reality or no one should. In the first case, a barbarian's Rage should literally be able to change things, including bringing back the dead (where appropriate) or wish-level changes. A fighter's training should let them literally cut Death. Or cut holes in reality. Etc. In the latter case, those high-power shenanigans are entirely up to (one or more of) plot, items, rituals (that anyone can do), etc. But having a system where some get carte blanche to warp reality to their whims and others are stuck being mundane is unsupportable.

Beyond that, talking about characters and contributions--I hate when players feel they have to self-nerf or play below capacity. In fiction, it seems totally condescending. "Oh yeah, I could have solved that with a flick of my wrist, but I wanted you to feel needed. Even though you weren't." Or like the characters were holding the idiot ball. Conversely, when the scenario writer has to come up with more and more convoluted ways to spotlight the weak players, it causes massive fridge logic issues for me. This is the problem that ensemble superhero media has--it has to come up with increasingly implausible reasons why Superman (et al) don't just snap their fingers and solve the problems. And the worldbuilding falls apart if you look at it funny. It's no good at either a worldbuilding or play level.

[1] note I do not say precisely balanced. There's a huge difference between BMX Bandit vs Angel Summoner (which is exactly the course you're championing) and "basically balanced".

Theodoxus

2023-05-02, 04:45 PM

It's such a weird thing to stick on, because it only exists if someone puts it there.

And yet, nearly every thread devolves into exactly that battle in one form or another.

Magic is so much less interesting when it's just an 'I-Win' button. When it replicates anything a martial can do, both in and out of combat, including tanking (through summons or whatever) better than a martial can, what's the point?

While I liked 4th Ed and thought bringing balance to the classes via identical mechanics if not identical powers was pretty bold, I get that it rubbed too many people the wrong way. But maybe taking a beat from the edition and curbing the overall encounter ending mechanics that casters get would go a long way. I still contend that 6th+ level spells are stupid strong and should be relegated to rituals at a minimum (if not just tossed out completely).

Half-casters is where the power level really should be. Wizards getting Fireball at 9th level is far more equitable to martial classes. I'm also a big proponent of making casters use multiple stats to get full value out of their spells, and make them the same across the board. Maybe Int to Hit; Cha boosts Spell DC; Wis provides bonus spells prepared/known. If you're using mostly save or suck spells, you might let Int lag; if you know exactly what spells you want, only boost Wis to the exact mod you need. If you want to be King of the Casters, then work on getting all 3 up as high as possible.

Aren't you glad I'm not a WotC developer... all your magic would be powered down.

Psyren

2023-05-02, 04:55 PM

And yet, nearly every thread devolves into exactly that battle in one form or another.

Because the people who feel strongly about it (in either direction) tend to self-select onto D&D forums.

Magic is so much less interesting when it's just an 'I-Win' button. When it replicates anything a martial can do, both in and out of combat, including tanking (through summons or whatever) than a martial can, what's the point?

If your martials can't tank better than a caster's summoned creature, and your casters can win every encounter with a single spell, then the problem is not the caster.

Theodoxus

2023-05-02, 05:06 PM

If your martials can't tank better than a caster's summoned creature, and your casters can win every encounter with a single spell, then the problem is not the caster.

You're right, it's the game/spells they have access to. Which was my point...

Psyren

2023-05-02, 05:11 PM

You're right, it's the game/spells they have access to. Which was my point...

No, I think the martial's build (or lack thereof) as well as the encounter design bear the blame there.

But to answer your previous question - It's not that I'm glad that anyone specific is or isn't a designer, so much as I understand why the current designers approach the game the way they do. This aspect of it, at least.

PhoenixPhyre

2023-05-02, 05:13 PM

You're right, it's the game/spells they have access to. Which was my point...

Exactly. And it's a continuously moving target--every single new book pushes casters further down the power track while not significantly changing martials.

You can't balance unbounded against bounded. And lying about what you're doing isn't a great look. So the options are
1) explicitly say "screw balance, casters win." And then build around that. Probably ends up either abolishing martials or with troupe play, a la Ars Magica.
2) put bounds on the casters. Significant binding constraints on what spells are allowed to do in that system. And then enforce those. Not piddling little resource constraints--that never works. Nor by adding inconvenience--those types of limits are the first to be discarded. Actual system level definitions of what spells can do and what (most importantly) they can't.
3) Unbound the martials. Ditch the silly "martials have to be realistic but casters don't" brain worm. Let everyone be fantastic. The cost is that you end up in "shonen anime" territory pretty darn fast, which has its own set of thematic and mechanical consequences.

Personally, I think #2 is the only way that makes sense long term.

Short term, the answer to "sorcerers are weak compared to wizards" isn't to make sorcerers busted like wizards are. It's to rein in wizards. OG, PHB 2014 sorcerers were just about in the sweet spot for power and versatility. Could do a lot, but required special building. Sure, there were some issues around multiclassing. But that's inherent in level-by-level multiclassing.

The answer is not to hand them 1x/day wish without meaningful consequences. You want fewer people to play T4 because handling it becomes much harder? That's one good way of doing so.

Psyren

2023-05-02, 05:24 PM

There's also Option 4: Keep doing what they're doing, keep both martials and casters, make incremental changes to keep things fresh, remain the #1 TTRPG on the planet.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-02, 05:27 PM

The bold is exactly the kind of argument by assumption I find repellant. The idea that casters are intrinsically "warping reality" and martials are just "mastering the sword". That's presumption. And unnecessary presumption. It's exactly the "well, but magic is allowed to break the rules" attitude. But only some magic, that tiny sliver of all magic called "spells".

That's not... assumption. A Level 11 Fighter can spin their blade to connect 3 times a round reliably, upwards to 6, they are more in tune with their weapon than almost anyone and their training has allowed them to hone their own nature to a razor's edge (More ASI and Feats). A Level 11 Wizard Can turn a 100'x30' area into a trash compactor for every living thing in it...

That's not just D&D, either.
World of Darkness, a Werewolf is super strong and fast and powerful and a mage... Can alter the weather of the globe. A Brujah vampire can punch through steel and move via flash step, while a Ravnos can break reality to such a degree that their illusions are real.
7th Sea: A Soldani Swordsman can rip through swarms of men, holding their own against a flood of people with their training and swords. A Zerstorung Sorcerer controls Time.
Deadlands: A Master Gunslinger can take out a target the size of a pin at 100 paces, meanwhile the Junker has put the spirit of a Blood Pressure Machine into a Semi Sized pile of garbage and created a Goa'uld Sarcophagus.

I could step away from Table Top. Mistborn, Stormlight, Recluce, Spellsong, Wheel of Time, etc, etc, etc. Why is the idea that some powers are stronger than others in a vacuum a big deal and why does that somehow make one "Better" than the other in a cooperative game?

In a fantasy world like D&D, everything is "magic". I find no conceptual reason why someone who trains their body and their mind one way should have necessarily different power levels than those that train their body and mind a different way.

So. What power resulting from honing their mind and body in a "different way" equates to Wish? They gave magic powers to martials in 3.X, they were awesome, they still weren't as powerful as a raw Wizard or CoDzilla.

In 5e as a whole the Fighter is actually a very cool, very useful and impactful class. And the Cleric meanwhile can summon God.

If they came out and said "yes, casters are supposed to be more powerful and supposed to get all the cool toys without limits, while martials play cleanup and servant" (aka Ars Magica), that might work. But they haven't. So saying "D&D assumes that casters are more powerful and martials can suck it up" is not actually born out. And I'd bet that if you asked the devs if the classes were supposed to be basically[1] balanced, they'd say yes, they are. That's why this attitude is so toxic--it creeps in and poisons everything.

Because they balance against how much a class brings to the party, how fun it is to play and how impactful it is to the story being told. They don't and never have balanced one class against another.

Let's look at the Big Three heroes in Wheel of Time.
Mat is an expert Gambler and Military Tactician with preternatural luck and some minor magic immunity (Magic can't directly touch him but you could magic a building to collapse and fall on him type thing.)
Perrin has enhanced sense, the ability to communicate and command wolves and the ability to enter the Dream world where he can do anything, in the flesh and then exit otherplaces.
Rand can erase things from existence, change the weather, heal injuries, devastate armies, teleport large groups of people and god knows what else.

In the vacuum Rand is superior strength wise. In the actual story without all three the heroes fail. Rand can't do what Mat or Perrin can and vice versa. What they all bring to the table is what lets the heroes win.

Beyond that, talking about characters and contributions--I hate when players feel they have to self-nerf or play below capacity. In fiction, it seems totally condescending. "Oh yeah, I could have solved that with a flick of my wrist, but I wanted you to feel needed. Even though you weren't." Or like the characters were holding the idiot ball.

Examples? Cause while in a white room a Wizard can "Solve anything" any other class does, in reality PC wizards tend to take skills other than what the party already covers. Not to "Let them feel useful" but because it means they can broaden the scope of what the group can accomplish.

And yet, nearly every thread devolves into exactly that battle in one form or another.

Magic is so much less interesting when it's just an 'I-Win' button. When it replicates anything a martial can do, both in and out of combat, including tanking (through summons or whatever) better than a martial can, what's the point?

Because being able to solve a problem via more than one class in a vacuum or test chamber isn't the same as a coherent party. You're literally forcing the same "fight" that I just pointed out doesn't need to be there and that you I think agree with my sentiment on?

Yeah, a Summoner Wizard might be able to put bodies in place to do what a Fighter normally could. So the party doesn't need a Fighter, instead it can have an Artificer, or even just a different kind of fighter. It's akin to saying "The Fighter has the Urchin background and Thief tools, how dare they rob from the rogue" vs just then assuming either redundancy for more likely success or that the group now doesn't need a Rogue.

I'm also a big proponent of making casters use multiple stats to get full value out of their spells, and make them the same across the board. Maybe Int to Hit; Cha boosts Spell DC; Wis provides bonus spells prepared/known. If you're using mostly save or suck spells, you might let Int lag; if you know exactly what spells you want, only boost Wis to the exact mod you need. If you want to be King of the Casters, then work on getting all 3 up as high as possible.

In practice it just leads to extra min maxing in my experience. For instance, the Deadlands Huckster works like that. You have a "Hexslinging" skill which determines how many dice you roll which increases your likelihood of casting a spell, but every spell uses one of the 12 stats total, not just Knowledge or Spirit. In theory this means you have to be wide ranging in your stats to be good, meaning balance and less super stats. In practice is means most Huckster players chose one or two abilities and stuck to those categories.

Aren't you glad I'm not a WotC developer... all your magic would be powered down.

I am indifferent to you being a developer. I'm not against systems with lower power scale, I play quite a few. But even there, the Magic is stronger than the Mundane. (Deadlands, 7th Sea, L5R, WoD)

Psyren

2023-05-02, 05:36 PM

That's not just D&D, either.
World of Darkness, a Werewolf is super strong and fast and powerful and a mage... Can alter the weather of the globe. A Brujah vampire can punch through steel and move via flash step, while a Ravnos can break reality to such a degree that their illusions are real.
7th Sea: A Soldani Swordsman can rip through swarms of men, holding their own against a flood of people with their training and swords. A Zerstorung Sorcerer controls Time.
Deadlands: A Master Gunslinger can take out a target the size of a pin at 100 paces, meanwhile the Junker has put the spirit of a Blood Pressure Machine into a Semi Sized pile of garbage and created a Goa'uld Sarcophagus.

I could step away from Table Top. Mistborn, Stormlight, Recluce, Spellsong, Wheel of Time, etc, etc, etc. Why is the idea that some powers are stronger than others in a vacuum a big deal and why does that somehow make one "Better" than the other in a cooperative game?
...
I am indifferent to you being a developer. I'm not against systems with lower power scale, I play quite a few. But even there, the Magic is stronger than the Mundane. (Deadlands, 7th Sea, L5R, WoD)

Loving the non-D&D examples, keep it up :smallsmile:

Because they balance against how much a class brings to the party, how fun it is to play and how impactful it is to the story being told. They don't and never have balanced one class against another.
...
Examples? Cause while in a white room a Wizard can "Solve anything" any other class does, in reality PC wizards tend to take skills other than what the party already covers. Not to "Let them feel useful" but because it means they can broaden the scope of what the group can accomplish.
...
Because being able to solve a problem via more than one class in a vacuum or test chamber isn't the same as a coherent party. You're literally forcing the same "fight" that I just pointed out doesn't need to be there and that you I think agree with my sentiment on?
...
Yeah, a Summoner Wizard might be able to put bodies in place to do what a Fighter normally could. So the party doesn't need a Fighter, instead it can have an Artificer, or even just a different kind of fighter. It's akin to saying "The Fighter has the Urchin background and Thief tools, how dare they rob from the rogue" vs just then assuming either redundancy for more likely success or that the group now doesn't need a Rogue.

All of this. And again, none of this is new to OneD&D, so swearing off OneD&D because it's... continuing 5e's design? That thing they promised to do from the start?... Doesn't make sense to me.

PhoenixPhyre

2023-05-02, 06:59 PM

Loving the non-D&D examples, keep it up :smallsmile:

Except it's cherry picking and ignoring the wealth of cases where there isn't the divide. You can get to any conclusion if you cherry pick hard enough.

All of this. And again, none of this is new to OneD&D, so swearing off OneD&D because it's... continuing 5e's design? That thing they promised to do from the start?... Doesn't make sense to me.

Not just continuing. Doubling down on the things that have gone badly. The 2014 PHB was in a much better state in that regard. All the stuff later that I've decried? Yeah. Has gone more and more down the "only casters matter, everyone else is their bag man" route. And there comes a point at which enough is enough.

In my own games I've already taken steps to ignore a lot of the added power creep[1] and blatant caster-favoritism. But the benefit, to me, from moving toward a system that does exactly what I don't want even harder and doesn't do anything I happen to want[2] is...well...limited. This isn't the only reason to avoid OneD&D, but it is among the reasons.

[1] creep is the wrong word. Power gallop might be better. And it's 99.95% in favor of spells and spell casting.
[2] Currently there are exactly zero things in any of these UAs that have gotten above "nice idea, bad implementation" for me. There are many "WTF were you thinking" ideas, a bunch of "meh ideas", and a few "ok, that could be good...except your implementation is as boring and pointless as possible". Nothing actually done well. So it's 100% cost, 0% benefit in my eyes.

Psyren

2023-05-02, 07:02 PM

Except it's cherry picking and ignoring the wealth of cases where there isn't the divide. You can get to any conclusion if you cherry pick hard enough.

Oh I'm sure there are tons of examples where the disparity doesn't exist. I might have even heard of some of them!

Not just continuing. Doubling down on the things that have gone badly.

Gone badly according to who? The market doesn't seem to agree with that.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-02, 07:06 PM

Except it's cherry picking and ignoring the wealth of cases where there isn't the divide. You can get to any conclusion if you cherry pick hard enough.

Except I'm not. I'm sure there ARE systems where everything is on equal foot. I don't know of any, but I'm not arguing there are.

It's just a list of things I've played in 20 years. If you want the complete list we add Savage Worlds, ShadowRun, Legend of the 5 Rings, Mutants and Masterminds and various d20 games like Spycraft, Wheel of Time, Stargate-SG1. About the only big systems I've never played are BESM, Palladium and Gurps. Do any of those not have disparity between full out magic and mundane? I was lead to believe they didn't even really have classes.

Could you list some game systems that don't have a disparity between what Magic can do and what everyone else can that also then include significant magic? (IE I can point out there's no magic class that overpowers the martials in Stargate, but there's no magic at all so... yeah?)

Not just continuing. Doubling down on the things that have gone badly. The 2014 PHB was in a much better state in that regard. All the stuff later that I've decried? Yeah. Has gone more and more down the "only casters matter, everyone else is their bag man" route. And there comes a point at which enough is enough.

Again, actual examples and discussion? Cause I haven't experienced any of that and never felt Martials or non casters were unimportant or weak.

Sindal

2023-05-02, 11:48 PM

It doesn't speak to the mechanical aide of things

But I always love when the martials and casters have a symbiotic relationship in universe, as it tends to happen in parties who build relationships.

Usually both parties can back up their side.

It's also funny whenever a sorceorer or wizard has to make a strength check of any kind, the wizard necromancer awkwardly asks if they can help them up this rope.

Thr paladin asks why they don't just get their 50 skeletons to do it. The wizard just sheepishly smiles and says they ran out of mana counterspelling that banish spell that was coming at them earlier.

Kane0

2023-05-03, 12:25 AM

But I always love when the martials and casters have a symbiotic relationship in universe, as it tends to happen in parties who build relationships.
Usually both parties can back up their side.
It's also funny whenever a sorceorer or wizard has to make a strength check of any kind, the wizard necromancer awkwardly asks if they can help them up this rope.
The paladin asks why they don't just get their 50 skeletons to do it. The wizard just sheepishly smiles and says they ran out of mana counterspelling that banish spell that was coming at them earlier.

I've seen that sort of situation, always funny at the table.

Paladin: "Sorcerer, can't you teleport us or something? Maybe conjure a creature to do it"
Sorcerer: "When have you EVER seen me do either of those things? I can move things with my mind, that is the extent of my abilities"
Warlock: "I can portal us over"
Barbarian: "...wait since when? That would have been great last week!"
Warlock: "Daybreeze was *real* angry after her favourite Druid died"
Rogue: "See, should've just let me use the poison arrows"

RSP

2023-05-03, 08:59 AM

On the martial/caster balance thing, it’s not that they need to be balanced against each other, they need to be able to excel at about the same rate at what they’re each supposed to do.

I find the idea that martials without magic should be able to do what people with magic can do, goes against the definition of “magic”: the definition entails it’s something outside of what can be done without it.

“Powerful” is a subjective term. If non-casters at level 20 can do their jobs as well as casters at 20 do their jobs, then they could be equally “powerful”.

Or view it this way: the best basketball player in the world isn’t going to be able to do the same things as the best hockey player in the world, or the best cellist in the world; yet they’re each equally good at what they do.

Deciding you’re going rate how good the cellist is by comparing them to what the basketball player can do, is a horrible way to rate what a cellist can do.

Hurrashane

2023-05-03, 09:33 AM

Trask

2023-05-03, 09:53 AM

PhoenixPhyre

2023-05-03, 10:11 AM

5e martials can get savaged by a dragon and brush it off like it's nothing, and can take down giant sized foes with what amounts to a toothpick to the huge creature.

High level barbarians can drop from orbit at least twice and be fine.

Monks can potentially deflect a projectile from a siege weapon.

Like, I dunno, martials seem pretty fantastic.

Exactly. D&D does not feature mundane martials. Or mundane characters of any stripe. Everybody's already fantastic. Freed from the bounds of what the real world considers possible (especially the cramped view that many people take on what is plausible).

On the other hand, just being fantastic does not mean that anything goes. A perfectly valid option would be to constrain everyone to a lower level of fantasticness. There's no need for people to be able to warp reality at a thought--that's a design choice. And it has consequences. IMO bad ones, but that's opinion. So there's no fundamental reason why non-spell-casting[1] characters must be fundamentally weaker than spell-casting ones. You've got lots of options. So why pick the "those guys are special and can do everything the other guys can plus a bunch of things" option?

Personally, I think the game would work much better, the worlds would make much more sense, and in general everyone would be better off if they focused on one and only one power level. Either everyone is reality warpers or no one is. Don't try to juggle multiple power levels and fake some kind of "balance" that's obviously fake. No need to come up with convoluted reasons why the "cheat characters" (in the isekai sense) can't just trivially solve all the problems with their OP nonsense so the regular folks can contribute. That works in authored fiction, but not so much at the game level.

And no, you can't say that there are different niches and casters can have more raw power while not superseding martials--every time this discussion comes up it's a major point that no, you don't need martials around as anything other than decoration. People trot out all their "better than martials at swording" builds that are also full wizards, etc. If that was the chosen route (actual niche protection), then there'd be a lot more limits on casters. Limits that have been continuously eroded over the course of this edition and previous ones, because caster-supremacists whined and complained that it wasn't fair that they couldn't sword just as well as the fighter did. While also saying it's only right and true that they don't have give up any of their casting prowess to do so. Remember the standard for a gish in 3e? 9ths and a full set of attacks (at minimum)? Yeah.

Maybe if casters couldn't cast in melee at all, couldn't wear any armor at all (in fact had hard limits on AC), automatically failed all physical saving throws and ability checks, and couldn't use any weapons at all, maybe then you could balance that way (niche protection). But you know what? That would suck. I don't want to balance that way. So the only other viable option is to lower the overall power level. And it doesn't take much--if every caster were like the 2014 sorcerer and you trimmed/fixed a few (like ~10) of the worst-offending spells and fixed a few things with martials, things would be basically tolerable as far as I'm concerned. But no. They're going in just the opposite direction--larding more and more power into the most broken pieces and not fixing anything that's actually wrong (just putting a coat of paint over it).

[1] "magic" isn't the right word. Specifically it's spell casters and spells that are considered to be superior. Because the Tempest Barbarian is outright magic, yet doesn't get all the cool stuff.

Theodoxus

2023-05-03, 10:19 AM

Exactly.

It's like you read my mind and saved me minutes of typing.

100% this.

The more I've dug into the UA and these various threads, the more I'm leaning to making the new Warlock the chassis for all casters. It's less about martials needing a boost and far more about casters needing to be curbed back. Since the most reality warping spells are in the upper half, they should be NPC facing abilities and possibly cooperative rituals on the player side.

RSP

2023-05-03, 11:18 AM

PhoenixPhyre

2023-05-03, 11:34 AM

I’m still unsure what people want “mundane” characters to do, that isn’t already doable in the 5e system. As posted up-thread, Monks can do fantastic things, Barbs can withstand punishment well beyond anything remotely feasible to a real-world person. Fighters are able to go toe-to-toe with giants, dragons and demons.

I don’t see how any system can have “magic” without it being outside of what “non-magic” can do.

Here's the thing. I reject the "martials have to be non-magic" idea wholesale. Everyone is magic. Because being fantastic? That's the only workable definition of magic.

But that doesn't mean that magic === casts spells. That's the root of the brainworm. People insist that only if you cast spells can you go outside and have all power. And that's just not so.

So yes, magic > non-magic. But no one is mundane/non-magic. Everyone (PCs at least) breaks the bounds of what is normally possible in different ways.

Why do you consider casters “superior”? Why don’t you consider Tempest Barbarian’s stuff “cool”? Isn’t all that just relative to what kind of character you want to play for a given campaign?

As I see it, 5e supplies lots of little puzzle pieces, various different things classes can do for a PC.

If the only “missing piece” is “I want my PC to do more than other PCs” then that’s not what the game is designed for, in my opinion.

That last sentence? It's exactly what I'm decrying. The insistence that spell-casters be superior to non-spell-casters in every possible way. That spell-casters naturally deserve to be better. My point is that they shouldn't be. That everyone should get cool stuff. In approximately the same quantity, although differing in details. If one class gets to casually warp reality on a whim (aka Apotheosis), then every class should be able to. But the attitude of Psyren et al is that it's totally fine for sorcerers and wizards to causally warp reality, but martials need to stay in their lane and only hit things. That it's fine that casters get crap tons of power dumped on them for free and martials get counterbalancing nerfs and limited changes. That the strong get stronger and the weak basically stay the same.

In a world where a sorcerer gets free castings of wish without consequences, a tempest barbarian should be able to literally summon storms and ride lightning bolts. At will. At minimum. Or, as is my preference, we should all be quite a bit more limited than that.

Psyren

2023-05-03, 11:52 AM

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-03, 11:57 AM

Personally, I think the game would work much better, the worlds would make much more sense, and in general everyone would be better off if they focused on one and only one power level. Either everyone is reality warpers or no one is. Don't try to juggle multiple power levels and fake some kind of "balance" that's obviously fake. No need to come up with convoluted reasons why the "cheat characters" (in the isekai sense) can't just trivially solve all the problems with their OP nonsense so the regular folks can contribute. That works in authored fiction, but not so much at the game level.

Then run those games, no one's arguing against it, but that's not really where high fantasy sits. As for "Makes much more sense" Not really, your entire argument, as we'll touch again in a minute, stems from the idea that because a Caster can, in theory, have a spell that solves a certain issue, then there's no reason to ever have any other method to solve it. Which is not a smart choice from a practical standpoint, and assumed that the Caster will specifically want to fill that roll vs choosing something else.

And no, you can't say that there are different niches and casters can have more raw power while not superseding martials--every time this discussion comes up it's a major point that no, you don't need martials around as anything other than decoration.

Only in a vacuum where the goal is "Take the Rogue's Job" or some such. I have yet to see anyone take a Sword Bard or Sword Wizard because "It's better than an actual fighter at swording" I've seen them taking that path because they want to be a Fighter but for game purposes or character fantasy want to be a Wizard or want to be able to inspire and buff their allies. A Bladesinger is one of my favorite Subclasses, but it's not BETTER than a Fighter as a swordsman. In fact, optimization views say taking Bladesinger boils down to an AC and Concentration Check boost with the ability to fight if you really have to. But let's be honest. An AC of potentially 20(24) with DPR of 1d8+Dex+Int + 4d10 and a stack of d6 HD is NOT a better Tank than the AC of Potentially 21(25) with DPR of 4d8+Strx4+8 and a stack of d10 HD. Or a better DPS than the AC of Potentially 19 with DPR of 8d6+Strx4+40.

The wizard has no way to force casual disadvantage the way a Cavalier Fighter or Ancestors Barb does. They have no way to open a locked door or trap carefully and without making noise without expending multiple spell slots and taking more time than the rogue needs.

Sorry, please pick the thing you think the Caster actually does better? You mentioned summons? Less HP, less DPR, rare to no tanking ability. I see the above mentioned Knock constantly, 2nd Level spell slot and you make a lot of noise. Unless you also cast Silence in which case, spending two significant resources to match the Rogue's casual action is just.. Yeah, that's not superior.

That last sentence? It's exactly what I'm decrying. The insistence that spell-casters be superior to non-spell-casters in every possible way.

No one is insisting that and at least I am adamantly saying that you're focus on what is "Most powerful" in a white room or theoretical situation is not a useful or accurate discussion. I am not as powerful, impactful, whatever as a Professional Martial Artist, or a Surgeon, but when they get in a Car Accident suddenly I'm VERY important (Claims Adjuster). That they're "more powerful" than me is an irrelevant thing.

That spell-casters naturally deserve to be better. My point is that they shouldn't be. That everyone should get cool stuff.

They aren't. More powerful is not automatically better and everyone does get to do cool stuff. In the campaign my spouse runs, my most "powerful" character is a Lore Bard, my favorite character is an Oath of the Crown Paladin. They're also the semi hero of the story, the leader of the adventuring group, the heart and passion and force behind most of my Role Playing. Sure, they can't cast Wish like the Lore Bard, but who cares, they can inspire people, they can stand toe to toe with an arch wizard and make that wizard run or feel impotent. Wait, so it's not even automatically powerful either, hmm. (and to be clear, this was an 11th level character with only two magic items, albeit one designed for casters (+1 Flail, Spellguard Shield) who stood in front of an angry wizard trying to show how powerful they were and said "No"... So much for Spellcasters are better.

In approximately the same quantity, although differing in details. If one class gets to casually warp reality on a whim (aka Apotheosis), then every class should be able to.

I agree, how dare classes be different! I am so offended that the Rogue can have a +7-+9 Ability to disarm traps and open locks at level 1 but my fighter can't. EVERYONE needs to be able to do everything all the time!

But the attitude of Psyren et al is that it's totally fine for sorcerers and wizards to causally warp reality, but martials need to stay in their lane and only hit things.

As an aside, I can't help but notice you accused me to cherry picking TTRPG systems to support my point, but I've asked you to share examples that don't have magic as stronger than martials in the way D&D does and... None?

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-03, 12:19 PM

Delete Request: Apologies for double post.

PhoenixPhyre

2023-05-03, 12:22 PM

Whereas I reject "non-spell magic and spells should be on the same footing." Spells have inherent restrictions. Spells have special rules and requirements. Spells can be interfered with in more ways. Spells come almost exclusively from scholarship, sponsorship, or pedigree. Yes, you can access the background magic of the world via martial means, but the whole point of spellcasting is that it is both the broadest and deepest means of interfacing with that (super)natural force.

By all means, give martials access to magic, but to say they should have that to the same degree as characters that focus primarily or even exclusively on magic itself is farcical.

Everyone has inherent restrictions. And in D&D, spells have teh fewest inherent restrictions.

And I reject your last statement in its entirety. Spells are a surface access path, picking the low-hanging fruit. Mortal spells are the shallowest and narrowest form of access to the underlying magic, because they have to go through only approved APIs.

Then run those games, no one's arguing against it, but that's not really where high fantasy sits. As for "Makes much more sense" Not really, your entire argument, as we'll touch again in a minute, stems from the idea that because a Caster can, in theory, have a spell that solves a certain issue, then there's no reason to ever have any other method to solve it. Which is not a smart choice from a practical standpoint, and assumed that the Caster will specifically want to fill that roll vs choosing something else.

Only in a vacuum where the goal is "Take the Rogue's Job" or some such. I have yet to see anyone take a Sword Bard or Sword Wizard because "It's better than an actual fighter at swording" I've seen them taking that path because they want to be a Fighter but for game purposes or character fantasy want to be a Wizard or want to be able to inspire and buff their allies. A Bladesinger is one of my favorite Subclasses, but it's not BETTER than a Fighter as a swordsman. In fact, optimization views say taking Bladesinger boils down to an AC and Concentration Check boost with the ability to fight if you really have to. But let's be honest. An AC of potentially 20(24) with DPR of 1d8+Dex+Int + 4d10 and a stack of d6 HD is NOT a better Tank than the AC of Potentially 21(25) with DPR of 4d8+Strx4+8 and a stack of d10 HD. Or a better DPS than the AC of Potentially 19 with DPR of 8d6+Strx4+40.

The wizard has no way to force casual disadvantage the way a Cavalier Fighter or Ancestors Barb does. They have no way to open a locked door or trap carefully and without making noise without expending multiple spell slots and taking more time than the rogue needs.

Sorry, please pick the thing you think the Caster actually does better? You mentioned summons? Less HP, less DPR, rare to no tanking ability. I see the above mentioned Knock constantly, 2nd Level spell slot and you make a lot of noise. Unless you also cast Silence in which case, spending two significant resources to match the Rogue's casual action is just.. Yeah, that's not superior.

Go tell that to all the people insisting otherwise in the multitudinous other threads. They're the ones making that assertion.

As an aside, I can't help but notice you accused me to cherry picking TTRPG systems to support my point, but I've asked you to share examples that don't have magic as stronger than martials in the way D&D does and... None?

That's because your statement contains a false assumption that assumes its conclusion. "magic" and "martials" are not disjoint sets that can be compared. Everyone is magic. Martials are just as much magic as casters. Just differently. That's my entire point.

For example, in Mistborn, there are certainly "magic" users. But everyone of consequence is a magic user. There are no mundanes among the "playable" cast.

But for a concrete example of non-casters being as strong or stronger, take Bleach. Where the "spell-casting" is actually one of the weakest forms of power and people with big freaking swords (even if those swords aren't actually swords) are the strongest. Or Dragon Ball. Where intense training and getting really mad makes you literally able to 1v1 the gods and win. Or any number of other similar properties.

The idea that there are "magic people" (who cast spells and can break laws at will) and "martial people" (who are just regular joes with swords, bound by the laws of earth reality) is entirely a D&D-ism. And it's a bad one. It's not even inherent in D&D, it's just accreted like a toxic barnacle. Everyone is magic. Spells are not special. Spells are not some rule-breaking force in a D&D world. They're just one of many routes to power.

Psyren

2023-05-03, 12:37 PM

But the attitude of Psyren et al is that it's totally fine for sorcerers and wizards to causally warp reality, but martials need to stay in their lane and only hit things.

You crammed an awful lot of straw into one sentence :smallconfused: No, I don't think what spellcasters do is "casual", and I definitely don't think martials should "only hit things." And no martial in 5e does.

Everyone has inherent restrictions. And in D&D, spells have teh fewest inherent restrictions.

Bold is nonsense. Martial magic doesn't need components, it doesn't need slots, it generally doesn't need to be prepared in advance, it generally doesn't need concentration, it can't be countered, it can't be dispelled, it usually isn't dependent solely on vision, it doesn't interact with things like Mage Slayer etc. Spells have tons of restrictions that other forms of magic don't.

For example, in Mistborn, there are certainly "magic" users. But everyone of consequence is a magic user. There are no mundanes among the "playable" cast.

"Casters aren't superior in a game where everyone is a caster" is a tautology, not a counterargument.

But for a concrete example of non-casters being as strong or stronger, take Bleach. Where the "spell-casting" is actually one of the weakest forms of power and people with big freaking swords (even if those swords aren't actually swords) are the strongest. Or Dragon Ball. Where intense training and getting really mad makes you literally able to 1v1 the gods and win. Or any number of other similar properties.

D&D is not trying to evoke shonen anime tropes. There are other TTRPGs for that.

Amechra

2023-05-03, 12:40 PM

I don’t see how any system can have “magic” without it being outside of what “non-magic” can do.

And that's before getting into the fact that the distinction is fundamentally arbitrary, since D&D-style "only a tight subset of character types get proper, highly-versatile magic" is actually pretty uncommon outside of the D&D family of games. Usually you either everyone gets some amount of magical nonsense (so "magic vs. mundane" is basically "player vs. nonplayer"), it'll be a really niche thing that's not really something most characters want, or it'll have the dreaded drawbacks that modern D&D is so utterly allergic to.

Like, take Ars Magicka as an example — magic is absurdly powerful in that game, and yet you need non-wizards around because wizards have an aura of "HATE ME!" that tanks their ability to get anything social done (and because Wizards would much rather be back in their lab doing research, because that's how you get better at magic — the game handles this by giving everyone a rotating cast of characters to swap between, letting the Wizards get their sweet, sweet downtime). Or Unknown Armies, where being good at magic requires you to have a crippling addiction or social issue that makes it almost impossible for you to also hold down a job/keep your life together.

D&D (and I'm counting games that aren't actually called D&D here, but which are clearly within the same subgenre)'s actually a bit of an outlier for effectively going "THIS is the only subsystem that grants maximum agency in this game... and it's restricted to only these characters". It just doesn't feel like an outlier because D&D itself is such a massive presence in the hobby, but it's still mostly a D&D thing.

Theodoxus

2023-05-03, 12:40 PM

Pixel, were you around when the Book of Nine Swords came out for 3rd Edition? Did you wade through myriad threads about 'how can you create fire by swinging your sword very fast'? Or any of the other "omg, fighters creating spell-like effects is sooo broken"...

And then 4th Edition came along and expanded on the concept, while simultaneously mirroring martial and caster power sets; so while some casters had AOE and long distance abilities, some martials did too. And people continued making threads about "omg, fighters creating spell-like effects is sooo broken"...

And then D&D Next was announced as a semi-crowd sourced edition and the MASSIVE backlash from the player community was basically "We want Linear Warriors and Quadratic Casters!"

And WotC obliged. The closest martial characters get to feeling magical is healing overnight and sometimes attacking more often than most earthly mortals are capable of (yes, we've all seen the videos of the archer tossing out a dozen arrows in 6 seconds - but when maybe 1 billionth of the humans on our planet are capable of such a feat, that's not the same as a PC).

I'm not going to go through every combination of spells that outclass mundane capabilities; but take any blaster and they all outpace martials. Then take utility spells. Flight, teleportation (from misty step through dimension door through T-Circle and TP itself), phantom steed et al; then all the QoL 'camping' spells from LTH through Magnificent Mansion and all the rest... None of these are things a martial character is remotely close to being capable of doing; much less multiple times a day (and quite a few as resource free rituals!)

Speaking of rituals, Silence can be cast thusly. So, unless you're in a massive time crunch, a Wizard can easily spend 11 minutes getting Silence up and running before pulling out Knock.

PhoenixPhyre

2023-05-03, 12:45 PM

And that's before getting into the fact that the distinction is fundamentally arbitrary, since D&D-style "only a tight subset of character types get proper, highly-versatile magic" is actually pretty uncommon outside of the D&D family of games. Usually you either everyone gets some amount of magical nonsense (so "magic vs. mundane" is basically "player vs. nonplayer"), it'll be a really niche thing that's not really something most characters want, or it'll have the dreaded drawbacks that modern D&D is so utterly allergic to.

Like, take Ars Magicka as an example — magic is absurdly powerful in that game, and yet you need non-wizards around because wizards have an aura of "HATE ME!" that tanks their ability to get anything social done (and because Wizards would much rather be back in their lab doing research, because that's how you get better at magic — the game handles this by giving everyone a rotating cast of characters to swap between, letting the Wizards get their sweet, sweet downtime). Or Unknown Armies, where being good at magic requires you to have a crippling addiction or social issue that makes it almost impossible for you to also hold down a job/keep your life together.

D&D (and I'm counting games that aren't actually called D&D here, but which are clearly within the same subgenre)'s actually a bit of an outlier for effectively going "THIS is the only subsystem that grants maximum agency in this game... and it's restricted to only these characters". It just doesn't feel like an outlier because D&D itself is such a massive presence in the hobby, but it's still mostly a D&D thing.

Right. This is what I mean by it's not inherent in the concept of magic.

Pixel, were you around when the Book of Nine Swords came out for 3rd Edition? Did you wade through myriad threads about 'how can you create fire by swinging your sword very fast'? Or any of the other "omg, fighters creating spell-like effects is sooo broken"...

And then 4th Edition came along and expanded on the concept, while simultaneously mirroring martial and caster power sets; so while some casters had AOE and long distance abilities, some martials did too. And people continued making threads about "omg, fighters creating spell-like effects is sooo broken"...

And then D&D Next was announced as a semi-crowd sourced edition and the MASSIVE backlash from the player community was basically "We want Linear Warriors and Quadratic Casters!"

And WotC obliged. The closest martial characters get to feeling magical is healing overnight and sometimes attacking more often than most earthly mortals are capable of (yes, we've all seen the videos of the archer tossing out a dozen arrows in 6 seconds - but when maybe 1 billionth of the humans on our planet are capable of such a feat, that's not the same as a PC).

I'm not going to go through every combination of spells that outclass mundane capabilities; but take any blaster and they all outpace martials. Then take utility spells. Flight, teleportation (from misty step through dimension door through T-Circle and TP itself), phantom steed et al; then all the QoL 'camping' spells from LTH through Magnificent Mansion and all the rest... None of these are things a martial character is remotely close to being capable of doing; much less multiple times a day (and quite a few as resource free rituals!)

Speaking of rituals, Silence can be cast thusly. So, unless you're in a massive time crunch, a Wizard can easily spend 11 minutes getting Silence up and running before pulling out Knock.

Agreed. And it's getting worse with every book published--they all contain buckets of new spells giving all sorts of new capabilities, plus new non-spell features (cough Twilight Cleric), plus "QoL" fixes that undo the limitations (cheap easy ways to be CHA-sad anyone?). While non-casters get...peanuts. And sometimes nerfs disguised as buffs or fixes (CF the UA rogue).

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-03, 12:59 PM

Go tell that to all the people insisting otherwise in the multitudinous other threads. They're the ones making that assertion.

No thank you, I asked for an example, if you're not willing to make your own argument then there's not much more to be said.

For example, in Mistborn, there are certainly "magic" users. But everyone of consequence is a magic user. There are no mundanes among the "playable" cast.

False on two levels. The first is the surface. Dockson is not a Metalborn of any sort, neither is Elendil until Book three. On the second, deeper level, they aren't all equal, not at all. Wax can Soothe emotions, nothing else, Ham has super strength and healing, Clubs can hide magic use from magical senses, Spook has enhanced senses. Meanwhile Kelsier, Vin and Marsh can do ALL of those AND telekinesis AND stoke emotions AND sense magic AND see the future AND.... Yeah... Then we have Sazed with an entire suite of it's own that's both different and unique from the other.

The idea that one of the individuals can match Vin or Kelsier or Marsh is utter nonsense and yet, everyone is important to the group and the goal, including the Non-Magic character.

But for a concrete example of non-casters being as strong or stronger, take Bleach. Where the "spell-casting" is actually one of the weakest forms of power and people with big freaking swords (even if those swords aren't actually swords) are the strongest. Or Dragon Ball. Where intense training and getting really mad makes you literally able to 1v1 the gods and win. Or any number of other similar properties.

You're incorrectly insisting because you think something doesn't look like a spell it's not a comparable state. The most powerful Zanpaktou shown are outright Kido using blades. Aizen's, Yamamoto's, Ichibei's, Yumichka's, etc. Meanwhile Kido is shown to be RIDICULOUSLY powerful, but no one learns it. Aizen's Black Coffin is frightening, Yumichka is "Weak" because he refuses to use Kido. Barragan crushed everything before him until he ran straight into Hachigen who's kido allowed him to win.

As for Dragonball. You're going to complain Spells are more powerful than others and that's not fair and then bring in the show where if you didn't get lucky enough to be born Saiyan you're useless after a while? That's... Interesting... Also, Goku, Vegeta and Gohan couldn't stand up to Whis or Beerus.

Pixel, were you around when the Book of Nine Swords came out for 3rd Edition? Did you wade through myriad threads about 'how can you create fire by swinging your sword very fast'? Or any of the other "omg, fighters creating spell-like effects is sooo broken"...

I was and I don't care what was argued in 3.5, we're talking now, with what folks like myself or Psyren are saying. I wouldn't begin to claim NO ONE has an attitude that Spellcasters should be superior. The world is big. I'm saying they aren't superior, just different and that being "more powerful" doesn't mean superior or that the non casters are bad. And funny enough, no one is actually proving me wrong. I see a lot of "Your argument is flawed because" but not a lot of hard examples. You're about to suggest one hard example, it's incorrect and we'll talk about that.

Speaking of rituals, Silence can be cast thusly. So, unless you're in a massive time crunch, a Wizard can easily spend 11 minutes getting Silence up and running before pulling out Knock.

Yep, so long as the Wizard has more than 11 minutes they can match the ability the rogue can do in 6 seconds. Truly a bastion of power.

DM: You reach the end of the hallway, there's a door, it has a complex series of locks and wires running across it, it doesn't open. On the other side of the door you hear voices. If you force the door they'll be ready for you.
Wizard: I begin drawing complicated runes on the ground, give me about ten minutes here..
Rogue: I just picked the lock, what are you doing?

DM: A great Cyclops stands in your way, lifting a massive club it advances on you.
Wizard: Stand back, Fighter, with my infinite control of magic I will summon a creature to face this Cyclops! (Summons Undead)
Fighter: Alright, it can hit the Cyclops in the back while I'm holding it's attention, good job helping. (Proceeds to use Unwavering Mark and the Cyclops now has to focus the Cavalier or take essentially a -5 to hit everything else).

Hurrashane

2023-05-03, 01:55 PM

Also silence has verbal components, so have fun chanting for 10 mins. Oh and Knock has verbal components so it can't be cast within silence.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-03, 02:02 PM

So it's even worse than I thought. There's literally no way to unlock a door quietly except with Thief Tools meaning that it's something anyone can have but traditionally lies with the Rogue. The only "magic user" that can match a rogue is an Artificer at level 6, a Bard or Ranger with the Urchin background at level 3 or 1 with optional features. And it only lets them match the rogue, not surpass.

Meanwhile the Wizard trying to replicate this echoes a loud knock out to 300' away. Completely removing the ability to be stealthy.

Oh, Wait, if a Sorcerer takes Sublte Spell AND spends a Feat on Ritual caster they could then use a 2nd level spell slot. Or if you want to avoid Ritual caster you just need to be a Sorcerer Multiclass with Bard, Cleric, Druid, etc and cast 2 2nd level spells.

Theodoxus

2023-05-03, 02:04 PM

I see a lot of "Your argument is flawed because" but not a lot of hard examples. You're about to suggest one hard example, it's incorrect and we'll talk about that.

Way to bypass all the hard examples... so, no counter to all the QoL options? Glad we can at least agree on that.

Also silence has verbal components, so have fun chanting for 10 mins. Oh and Knock has verbal components so it can't be cast within silence.

I mean, it was Pixel's example... but apparently we've already modified and created the V-less Knock spell.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-03, 02:17 PM

Way to bypass all the hard examples... so, no counter to all the QoL options? Glad we can at least agree on that.

I asked for examples of Caster doing Martial jobs better than a martial. If the only answers you have is "Well they can do it almost as well while doing other things" Yeah, that's not showing superiority. I asked for clear examples of things where a Martial's job can be done better.

The only examples I've seen tossed around are using Summons to replace a Tank or Knock to replace a Rogue. Neither of which actually work.

Theodoxus

2023-05-03, 02:29 PM

I asked for examples of Caster doing Martial jobs better than a martial. If the only answers you have is "Well they can do it almost as well while doing other things" Yeah, that's not showing superiority. I asked for clear examples of things where a Martial's job can be done better.

The only examples I've seen tossed around are using Summons to replace a Tank or Knock to replace a Rogue. Neither of which actually work.

Seriously?

"I'm a fighter, with my paladin buddy and monk girlfriend. We've been tasked with transporting this wagon from Waterdeep to Amn. It's gonna take a few weeks."
"I'm a wizard, I could teleport that for you, but I think the trip will build character."

"I'm a barbarian, I've been riding hard from the deserts wastes. My horse is nearly dead and I'm going to need to take a few days here to let it recover."
"I'm a wizard, I just summon a horse for free that never tires. Too bad I didn't know you when you started."

"I'm a 12th level fighter acolyte of Torm. I'm building a new temple here in the wilderness to look over this trade route. It's going to take a year at least. Oh, and like 40,000 gold."
"I'm a Cleric of Torm, I could have permanently created a Temple of the Gods and centered a Forbiddance upon it in the same amount of time, for the low low cost of 1000gp of ruby dust."

But ok.

Hurrashane

2023-05-03, 02:33 PM

I mean, it was Pixel's example... but apparently we've already modified and created the V-less Knock spell.

Then I say kudos to the wizard for being prepared. Though if I had a rogue in the party I personally wouldn't bother with having a spell for what they can do, seems like a waste of a spell slot. It could prove useful if seperates or if the rogue goes down, I suppose.

Seriously?

"I'm a fighter, with my paladin buddy and monk girlfriend. We've been tasked with transporting this wagon from Waterdeep to Amn. It's gonna take a few weeks."
"I'm a wizard, I could teleport that for you, but I think the trip will build character."

"I'm a barbarian, I've been riding hard from the deserts wastes. My horse is nearly dead and I'm going to need to take a few days here to let it recover."
"I'm a wizard, I just summon a horse for free that never tires. Too bad I didn't know you when you started."

"I'm a 12th level fighter acolyte of Torm. I'm building a new temple here in the wilderness to look over this trade route. It's going to take a year at least. Oh, and like 40,000 gold."
"I'm a Cleric of Torm, I could have permanently created a Temple of the Gods and centered a Forbiddance upon it in the same amount of time, for the low low cost of 1000gp of ruby dust."

But ok.

Hope the wagon fits in a 10ft cube or else it's not going anywhere.

Barbarian can call his horse by whistling, wizard needs to spend a slot and a minute or like, 11 mins. Not great for fast get aways. And said horse can be dispelled and disappears if it takes any damage. The Barbarian likely rides his into battle.

Takes the same amount of time to get that temple up and running if you want the magic one there permanently. And wouldn't you need 30,000gp of ruby dust as you need to cast the spell 30times? Also better hope there's no powerful enemies of your faith as that spell made temple goes poof of it's hit with disintegrate.

Psyren

2023-05-03, 02:43 PM

Seriously?

"I'm a fighter, with my paladin buddy and monk girlfriend. We've been tasked with transporting this wagon from Waterdeep to Amn. It's gonna take a few weeks."
"I'm a wizard, I could teleport that for you, but I think the trip will build character."

"Have you ever been to Amn?"
"Nah but how hard could it be?"
*appears in Anauroch desert*

(Also - why is a Tier 3 character transporting wagons?)

"I'm a barbarian, I've been riding hard from the deserts wastes. My horse is nearly dead and I'm going to need to take a few days here to let it recover."
"I'm a wizard, I just summon a horse for free that never tires. Too bad I didn't know you when you started."

"I'm a wizard, my horse disappears every 10 miles so I keep stopping to do 11 minutes of loud chanting. Also I have to travel alone. Bandits? Nah, never heard of them. "

"I'm a 12th level fighter acolyte of Torm. I'm building a new temple here in the wilderness to look over this trade route. It's going to take a year at least. Oh, and like 40,000 gold."
"I'm a Cleric of Torm, I could have permanently created a Temple of the Gods and centered a Forbiddance upon it in the same amount of time, for the low low cost of 1000gp of ruby dust."

But ok.

"I'm a Tier 3 cleric, and rando construction jobs are the best thing I can think of to do with an entire year of downtime. Good thing I have no Tier 3 enemies that can disintegrate all this hard work."

But ok.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-03, 04:03 PM

People have already poked holes, but let's try to look at the actual spells in question.

"I'm a fighter, with my paladin buddy and monk girlfriend. We've been tasked with transporting this wagon from Waterdeep to Amn. It's gonna take a few weeks."
"I'm a wizard, I could teleport that for you, but I think the trip will build character."

Teleport is a 7th level spell, so we're talking a 14th level group. Teleport specifies either up to 9 willing participants or 1 Object. So, no teleporting the wagon driver WITH the wagon, or the party. Hope someone is there waiting for the item. I suppose the Wizard could teleport the rest of the party there, take a long rest, then teleport the object and hope no one attacks them while they're alone...

Or did you mean Teleport Circle? That one requires set destinations and wouldn't allow the wagon. Hope everything can be carried on the people's own person.

"I'm a barbarian, I've been riding hard from the deserts wastes. My horse is nearly dead and I'm going to need to take a few days here to let it recover."
"I'm a wizard, I just summon a horse for free that never tires. Too bad I didn't know you when you started."

Phantom Steed has to be recast every hour. And you can't cast it for everyone without severely impacting it's usefulness. Do you really think using real horses is less effective than the Wizard chanting for 40 minutes for the group of four, traveling for 20, then starting the process over again? I guess if you're that stingy on buying grain and such at level 5.

"I'm a 12th level fighter acolyte of Torm. I'm building a new temple here in the wilderness to look over this trade route. It's going to take a year at least. Oh, and like 40,000 gold."
"I'm a Cleric of Torm, I could have permanently created a Temple of the Gods and centered a Forbiddance upon it in the same amount of time, for the low low cost of 1000gp of ruby dust."

Whelp, you got me. The Cleric has an easier time and.. What's that? Per RP logic the actual full on Priest of the god who has regular conversations and can even potentially summon said god has an easier time making a temple than a layperson?

Edit: I missed something key here. Why are you comparing a 12th level Fighter to a 14th level Cleric? And Also, as said, it'll cost 30k of Ruby Dust. And THEN it'll cost whatever it costs to actually furnish and supply the place. So looks like it's not even really that much of an edge to the actual servant of the god with more experience levels than the fighter.

Beyond all that, I specifically asked examples of Martials doing Martial things or Rogues doing Rogue things (Or what have you) that a Wizard replaces.

You know, like some folk insisting Summons replace Tanks. Because at level 5 a creature with about 14 AC, 30 HP and 1 attack per round with some sort of rider is the equivalent of something with 18+ AC, 50+ HP, 2 attacks a round and an ability that forces the enemy to take disadvantage if they go after anyone other than the tank.

What the examples keep showing, over and over again, is that Spellcasting can be used as a poor substitute if it has to, but all in all each class has a place to shine and things they do better than anyone else. Which, let's be honest, is why I'm asking for example. It seems that so much of the supposed superiority is based on either theoretical white room PVP or casual reading of things. Like the above. Magic Horse that never gets tired sounds great, but did you think about the fact that it takes 11 minutes to cast and you can't provide it to a party easily? Those permanent base spells are great, But did you notice the whole Disintegrate ends the entire thing no matter what?

Kane0

2023-05-03, 04:31 PM

There's the MacGuyver thread in RP of anyone wants to participate, make a couple builds and see what sort of situations they can and can't tackle well

Pex

2023-05-03, 10:08 PM

Nitpick

Forbiddance spell specifically says that upon casting the spell for 30 days to make it permanent the components are consumed on the last casting. It is not used up before then, so it only costs 1,000 gp, not 30,000.

Still, one disintegrate spell destroys the temple, so it's not completely safe.

Witty Username

2023-05-03, 11:53 PM

Not just continuing. Doubling down on the things that have gone badly. The 2014 PHB was in a much better state in that regard. All the stuff later that I've decried? Yeah. Has gone more and more down the "only casters matter, everyone else is their bag man" route. And there comes a point at which enough is enough.

I find this framing odd, 90% of what people complain about with casters are related to the phb, broken interactions with warlock and/or sorcerer mechanics, most of the spells powerful enough for people to complain about (shield, Conjure animals, simulacrum).

Most of the power creep has been in subclass options, which with a couple exceptions has favored martials not casters. Rogues best subclasses are in Tasha's as are monks. Barbarian, Fighter, ranger, best in Xanathar's. Wizard, PHB, Druid, PHB, Bard, PHB. The only exceptions are sorcerers which get progressively stronger every book printed, and also warlock and cleric, which warlock has hexblade (still not overpowering in comparison to the other casters outside of sorcerer interactions) and cleric the Tasha's sub-classes.

The game is better balanced with the inclusion of Xanathar's and Tasha's, not less. There is an affordance to be had for new spells, but those still tend to be weaker on the whole than those in the PHB. The Tasha's summons spells are generally a more table friendly version of the PHBs conjure spells for example.

Hurrashane

2023-05-03, 11:59 PM

RSP

2023-05-04, 12:16 AM

Here's the thing. I reject the "martials have to be non-magic" idea wholesale. Everyone is magic. Because being fantastic? That's the only workable definition of magic.

But that doesn't mean that magic === casts spells. That's the root of the brainworm. People insist that only if you cast spells can you go outside and have all power. And that's just not so.

So yes, magic > non-magic. But no one is mundane/non-magic. Everyone (PCs at least) breaks the bounds of what is normally possible in different ways.

I understand that perspective, but I think it makes discussing 5e difficult. Yes, the beings in the fantasy world are “magical” in the sense of “they aren’t our, real world normal”; but I’d not like referring to them all as magical in 5e, otherwise they should all cease being when exposed to Anti-Magic; which isn’t the intent of the system.

But in-game, the fact that any person sleeping for 8 hours completely recovers from all injuries isn’t “magical” to the masses: it’s mundane, and it occurs even in an AMF.

That’s different than casters getting spells, which by definition “must do more than non-magic”. Spells and casters in general just provide options for players to fit their made up character into a 5e “body”, same as martials.

It’s not “casters must be better than martials, so give them more stuff”; it’s that “mundane martials” is already fairly well covered, in terms of providing options to Players to fit the imaginary character they’re creating. So you get new Fighter, Rogue, Barb and Monk subclass that can do “magical things”, rather than new “mundane options” (because they’re suitably covered.

stoutstien

2023-05-04, 06:11 AM

I find this framing odd, 90% of what people complain about with casters are related to the phb, broken interactions with warlock and/or sorcerer mechanics, most of the spells powerful enough for people to complain about (shield, Conjure animals, simulacrum).

Most of the power creep has been in subclass options, which with a couple exceptions has favored martials not casters. Rogues best subclasses are in Tasha's as are monks. Barbarian, Fighter, ranger, best in Xanathar's. Wizard, PHB, Druid, PHB, Bard, PHB. The only exceptions are sorcerers which get progressively stronger every book printed, and also warlock and cleric, which warlock has hexblade (still not overpowering in comparison to the other casters outside of sorcerer interactions) and cleric the Tasha's sub-classes.

The game is better balanced with the inclusion of Xanathar's and Tasha's, not less. There is an affordance to be had for new spells, but those still tend to be weaker on the whole than those in the PHB. The Tasha's summons spells are generally a more table friendly version of the PHBs conjure spells for example.

Spell creep and stacking.

They are incapable of putting out splat books to that don't include spells and in order to make the new spells worth consideration they need to either do something new or better than what came before.
Sure the PHB had some questionable content but they have extended it rather than walk back. Summons are annoying and don't mesh with action economy? Have a Shepherd druid. Clerics have a lack of decent direct damage spells? Summon a fighter. Don't want damage? Here's a half dozen new action economy manipulation options with a selection of saves to target. I see your sim and raise you magens armies on top of it.

It doesn't matter if the new caster subclasses are not as good because spells are pluggable in the old ones.
They have little limits in regards to always taking the better options and avoiding the less wanted pick where martials are packaged paths.
It doesn't matter if they put out better nonspell based option if everything via moving up in step. That's the very definition of creep. Until they sit down and actually put limitations on spell casting they're never going to be able to out published this cycle.

Kane0

2023-05-04, 06:17 AM

Until they sit down and actually put limitations on spell casting they're never going to be able to out published this cycle.

Sure they can, just make a new subsystem in each splatbook and never expand on it afterwards. Happened a bunch in 3.5 which annoys me to this day but that's neither here nor there.

stoutstien

2023-05-04, 06:24 AM

Sure they can, just make a new subsystem in each splatbook and never expand on it afterwards. Happened a bunch in 3.5 which annoys me to this day but that's neither here nor there.

I think even with setting specific, or better theme grouped, rules/options they need to put some limits on what spell can handle. Having space that is definitely not spells gives you space to make alternative options to fill that void.

*And For the Love of All things, every Gap doesn't need to be filled in every single sub system. That's what make choices interesting.*

Amechra

2023-05-04, 01:35 PM

Sure they can, just make a new subsystem in each splatbook and never expand on it afterwards. Happened a bunch in 3.5 which annoys me to this day but that's neither here nor there.

That's not entirely true... but you have to pay attention to stuff they published online. From what I recall, the only subsystems that were never expanded on in any way were Shadowcasting, Truenaming, Martial Initiating, and Meldshaping. There was a TON of cool psionics stuff that was only online, if I remember correctly.

Thinking about it, I'm honestly a little bummed that D&D keeps going for vancian casting (which has inherent structural problems, let's say) and keeps ignoring other, better systems it has stumbled on. Like, I actually think Martial Initiating would be a better starting point for spellcasting in "beginner friendly" 5+E:

You have X slots, and can cast any spells you know through them. One slot = one spell.
Long-term buffs have a framework they can fit into (Stances) that can easily be borrowed by other classes (for familiarity sake).
Spells have prerequisites, meaning:

You can't just snipe the one overpowered Illusion spell (Simulacrum) and call it a day.
You end up with tighter thematics within your spell list, making questions like "what can you do?" more manageable.

(That would actually be a fun little game — pick two "discarded" subsystems from before 5e and imagine what an edition of D&D that was built around those subsystems instead of Vancian casting would look like. I think 4e Psionics + 3.X Meldshaping would actually be really interesting...)

MadBear

2023-05-04, 01:57 PM

Theodoxus

2023-05-04, 02:12 PM

This is why I prefer the Spells Swords and Sorcery books. In that series all PC's are inherently magical. The difference lies in the ways they utilize said magic. A wizard directly interacts with magic and uses it for spells. A rogue uses the same inherent magic of the world, but utilizes it for extreme stealth, and all the roguey things they're doing. A pugilist is pumping magic into their hands in order to be able to accomplish tasks no mere mortal could do without said magic. It's the reason a barbarian at sufficiently high level can drop from orbit and not die, even if landing on a spike that should impale/kill them.

This isn't to say all classes need to be inherently equal, and I'll be one of the first to point out that a white room wizard always looks significantly different from one in real play. I definitely don't buy into the "wizards can do a better job as a fighter then a fighter can". That just simply never pans out. What is frustrating is that abilities outside of combat are often given to casters that just don't exist for other classes. A high level wizard can use their spells that are normally used in combat to solve an out of combat issue. This disparity grows as new splat books give them more spells. The same isn't true of martials. A champion isn't gaining new things they can access with new splat books. As a result, they have almost exclusively combat abilities, and never gain anything new. Sure a new subclass might come out, but that's not gonna help the champion. We have seen a small degree of this with new battlemaster maneuvers and it's something I wish they'd lean into more, because that does to my eyes help the issue.

Anyways, I've definitely lost my train of thought in here, so I might as well stop.

Haven't read that series, but from the sound of it, it reminds me of Shadow and Bone, at least for the 'PC types.' It's how I'd also prefer the fantasy to be portrayed, and one reason I think every class should have a core mechanic that could be at least fluffed as magic, if not actually called out as such. It's one reason I've always thought that maneuvers should be a core fighter mechanic. Rage should provide a little more to barbarians than just strength boosts and damage resistance. I think part of the problem is spells just become bandaids instead of the hard job of actually thinking up a new subsystem. Paladins are cool, but how do we create the feel of a Holy Warrior? A new smite system and some kind of chastisement subsystem? That sounds cool, but so hard, lets just create smite spells and then give them the rest of Cleric. /done. Copy/paste for Ranger; slightly modify the same for Fighters and Rogues, but put it in at the subclass level. /yawn

Psyren

2023-05-04, 02:44 PM

Witty Username

2023-05-05, 10:55 PM

More spells doesn't mean better spells. Tasha's summons are mostly interesting for games that don't use the conjure versions. Immolate is an insult to spellcasting. Most damage spells are giving unrepesented damage types some existence (black dragon sorcerer gets some love I guess).
The gains in the spell list direction have been small, and generally in support of the worst archetypes.

There are a few spells (absorb elements, mind sliver, etc.) That do actually increase build strength generally, but the bulk of the power of spellcasting is the old favorites (spirit guardians is still the cleric pub stomper, fireball is still the best damage spell in the game, polymorph is still polymorph).

Psyren

2023-05-05, 11:52 PM

Tasha's summons are mostly interesting for games that don't use the conjure versions.

Conjures are stronger for games where the DM is willing to provide level-appropriate creatures - but even when they are, they bog down gameplay like nothing else, which makes them suboptimal even if they crush raw damage and defense.

It's definitely nice to play a Sorcerer who can summon things at least!

Schwann145

2023-05-06, 01:17 AM

But for a concrete example of non-casters being as strong or stronger, take Bleach. Where the "spell-casting" is actually one of the weakest forms of power and people with big freaking swords (even if those swords aren't actually swords) are the strongest. Or Dragon Ball. Where intense training and getting really mad makes you literally able to 1v1 the gods and win.

Two terrible examples, actually. :smalltongue:

Bleach:
Kidō is not only incredibly powerful (it was the only way to stop Aizen, for example), but one of *the* primary ways of deciding who is more powerful is how proficient they are with Kidō.
Captain Unohana
Hachigen
Tessai
Kisuke Urahara
Captain-Commander Yamamoto
Aizen
Ichibe Hyosube
All the most powerful Kidō users just "happen" to be some of the most overall powerful characters in the series? Not a coincidence.

Dragonball:
Terrible example, mostly because the writing is all over the place and magic barely exists. But where it does exist, it's *massively* powerful. For example:
The creation of the Dragon Balls and subsequent wishes granted by said Dragon Balls.
The creation of Majin Buu.
The ritual used to make Goku a Super Saiya-jin God.
Heck, the most powerful technique in the whole franchise is a spell that Master Roshi uses: the Mafūba (Evil Containment Wave).

Even when stepping into Shonen, which D&D is absolutely not trying to emulate, we still see magic coming out on top.

Psyren

2023-05-06, 09:55 AM

Two terrible examples, actually. :smalltongue:

Bleach:
Kidō is not only incredibly powerful (it was the only way to stop Aizen, for example), but one of *the* primary ways of deciding who is more powerful is how proficient they are with Kidō.
Captain Unohana
Hachigen
Tessai
Kisuke Urahara
Captain-Commander Yamamoto
Aizen
Ichibe Hyosube
All the most powerful Kidō users just "happen" to be some of the most overall powerful characters in the series? Not a coincidence.

Dragonball:
Terrible example, mostly because the writing is all over the place and magic barely exists. But where it does exist, it's *massively* powerful. For example:
The creation of the Dragon Balls and subsequent wishes granted by said Dragon Balls.
The creation of Majin Buu.
The ritual used to make Goku a Super Saiya-jin God.
Heck, the most powerful technique in the whole franchise is a spell that Master Roshi uses: the Mafūba (Evil Containment Wave).

Even when stepping into Shonen, which D&D is absolutely not trying to emulate, we still see magic coming out on top.

Adding to this - in DBZ, the only ways to have a prayer of keeping up with the power scaling are:

- Be born an alien/god
- Magic (summon or turn yourself into an outsider)
- Technology (create or turn yourself into an Android Cyborg)

No amount of push-ups or ki will let a human compete otherwise.

Boverk

2023-05-06, 10:21 AM

Witty Username

2023-05-06, 11:28 AM

Adding to this - in DBZ, the only ways to have a prayer of keeping up with the power scaling are:

- Be born an alien/god
- Magic (summon or turn yourself into an outsider)
- Technology (create or turn yourself into an Android Cyborg)

No amount of push-ups or ki will let a human compete otherwise.

Its the same in Bleach, more or less,
- Need to be born either a soul reaper, or Quincy.
- Need to be attacked by a hollow and survive
-Tech, be an artificial spirit like Kon or Nemu.

I think the only human outside that spectrum is Don Kenoji, who is magnificently weak.
--
Also, to replicate things in those series, we would more or less need spell design (not necessarily spells, nine swords stuff from 3.5, or 4e powers would work) as nearly everything done in those series are desrcrite named effects with set parameters of how they function.

More importantly for me, any imbalance between martials and casters is impossible to solve without giving martials Tier 3 and 4 abilities (Brutal Critical doesn't count). The only class on the martial side that gets this is monk, and they sacrifice alot of functionality in Tier 1 & 2 to get it.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-06, 03:51 PM

And to repeat again, all the strong "Martials" ie the powerful Zanpaktou, with only like three exceptions the scary swords are the ones that do magic, not the ones that cut better.

On the strong Martial side we have:
Zangetsu, super speed and sharpness.
Nozarashi: Can cut literally anything.
The rest are all some variant of "Hit hard" with glaring weaknesses.

Meanwhile on the strong Kido side we have:
Kyoka Suigetsu: Perfect Illusion casting and we don't even know what the Bankai is...
Ryujin Jakka: Controls Flame, creates flame, summons undead, binds spirits, I don't remember the rest but yeah...
Hyorimaru: Controls water, ice, temperature, weather.
Katen Kyokotsu: Reality Warping.

Heck, it's even shown outside the Soul Reaper stuff. Chad hits things hard and shooters lasers and basically tops off really fast. Meanwhile Orhime alters reality and is blatantly shown to only be "weak" because she doesn't want to be the type of person it takes to be strong.

Psyren

2023-05-06, 04:10 PM

+1 Pixel, Witty, and Schwann.

But Krillin still shows up! (I assume, I haven't seen Dragonball Super)

He's indeed the strongest human* - but it doesn't mean much.

*Depending on how you classify Tenshinhan and the weight you place on author statements

Trask

2023-05-06, 04:11 PM

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-06, 05:14 PM

Um, we're all specifically saying D&D does NOT set to Shonen rules or anime.

Also, the Anime came up because one poster claimed Bleach and Dragon Ball as "Perfect examples of how Magic doesn't trump martials" And the conversation continued with the logical errors in that statement.

No one is comparing playstyle to Anime, no one is saying D&D is like anime.

Amechra

2023-05-06, 05:44 PM

I think its telling how much of this discussion has turned to anime. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but it's a certain aesthetic preference that I would prefer Wotc didn't assume we all share.

I mean, not only has it turned to anime, but it has turned to a very specific kind of anime — namely, Shounen stuff that emphasizes fighting a succession of ever-more-powerful magical weirdos using (oftentimes literally) flashy mystical powers as a core thing. Which... yeah, that's honestly a pretty good summary of post-TSR D&D. The rapid power-scaling fits pretty well. :smallbiggrin:

(I agree that it's very much not my preference, tonally... but it is what you get when you make a combat focused game where the vast majority of your options are magical in some way.)

Witty Username

2023-05-07, 09:21 PM

Meanwhile on the strong Kido side we have:
Kyoka Suigetsu: Perfect Illusion casting and we don't even know what the Bankai is...

My headcannon is Aizen never unlocked his, and he faked his captain exam with illusions.

--
To discuss the actual topic, I still am not a big fan of sorcerer but I feel the UA is more new player friendly with some quality of life changes. 22 spells good, careful spell working with damage spells and the unique spells being flexible blast spells, very good. It feels like the doesn't really know what their doing caster and rewarded for short term, high power effects. Feels on brand.
Twinned spell should be renamed Repeat spell.
I am much happier with people recommending this take on the class to new players, and I would think this delivers better on sorcerer thematically (that theme is still dumb and bad, but this isn't really aimed at me, is it)

Joe the Rat

2023-05-09, 08:24 AM

Having spent way too much time digging into Cultivation stories, the fundamental flaw is assuming shonen martials an casters are different. Within a given milieu, the strongest punch guy and the strongest finger-waggler are fundamentally powered by the same mojo, and are correspondingly strong. The guys who can handle the earth (or whatever element) -shaking spells also tend to be ones who can punch/slash/burn/stare planets into submission. It's the form in which you specialize (or what your particular inborn power schtick is, if you are in a one-trick setting). While it is possible to clever your way around a weaker state, or to edge out your opponent, or to have a power set with more flexibility, Fire-Throwing Guy and Sword Swinging Guy are on a level field.

This is not the D&D model, other than 4th.

---

So, about them Sorcerers...

It was interesting that they felt Quickened and Twinned were operating in the same resource region - making being the "cast two spells on a turn" option (if you like cantrips), and Twinned being "spells at a discount." nuTwin is an interesting piece, since it affects a spell you are about to cast, but targets a spell you already cast. In trade for the time delay of the duplicated effect, you aren't limited to "one target" (thanks, Ice Knife). Oh, and you can have metamagicked the spell you are twinning. Including twinning. You could cast fireball, and then spend 3 sp every turn to keep casting fireball until you run out of sorcery points or get bored and do something else.

Amechra

2023-05-09, 11:28 AM

Having spent way too much time digging into Cultivation stories, the fundamental flaw is assuming shonen martials an casters are different.

Cultivation stories and shonen fighting stories are different genres, though. Which is beside the point that you're trying to make, but *waggles hand at genre tropes being a thing*.

The issue is that early D&D already had clean tiers of play that worked pretty well... but it did it by making Tier 3 "you have your own fief now, with all the resources that entails". Which wasn't that much of a swerve in context — by Tier 2 you had a ton of money that you couldn't really spend on yourself, so a lot of it ended up going towards projects or hiring people to bulk up your squad. The Fighter getting "you have a keep and 4d6 loyal men-at-arms" makes more sense when you look at it as "you no longer have to pay for mercenaries or worry about their loyalty to you!"

Then WotC decided to refocus on original Tier 2 (which was the popular one), but didn't get rid of spellcasters' Tier 3 options (there's a reason why the big summoning and divination spells start showing up at the levels that they do, and why high-level magic tends to lean more towards "plot magic" than low level magic does). And now, to add insult to injury, people suggest that non-spellcasters should make up for the cool stuff that got stolen from them by copying the spellcasters' cool stuff!

Witty Username

2023-05-09, 12:28 PM

Hm, building something like a 6 man brute squad into fighter's class progression would actually be pretty cool. Maybe at 9th level to share space with indomitable and set the tone of tier 3?

Theodoxus

2023-05-09, 12:51 PM

Hm, building something like a 6 man brute squad into fighter's class progression would actually be pretty cool. Maybe at 9th level to share space with indomitable and set the tone of tier 3?

A very cool, but massive, headache.

It's bad enough when the players want sidekicks. I couldn't imagine the logistics and 4 hour fights when the party Fighter adds six additional mooks on top of it all.

Snowbluff

2023-05-09, 02:14 PM

I kinda wish that Repeat Spell (which is what I'll call ODD Twinned) let you stack the concentration from both, so you could buff two friendlies like old twinned did. I think costing an extra action makes up for it.

Also if we had a version of Twinned that didn't allow concentration to reduce the value as a forked nerfed version, it would be nice. I'll miss twinned cantrip, which I felt was often better than first level spells thanks to cantrip scaling.

Not having the option to pick old Twinned in some shape or form means you actually should just play Wizard as Wizards of the Coast intended. :smalltongue:

Also Sorcery Incarnate is hilariously bad and terribly offensive. It's a trap option. It is a spell, it takes a bonus action (which is means you can't follow up with a leveled spell), it is 5th level which is way overcosted even with subclass benefits, and takes concentration. It buffs attack rolls for spells, of which I cannot name 5 of that are on the sorcerer list and also are leveled. It shouldn't be a spell, it shouldn't take concentration, and I think we can immediately discard "spells as a feature" as well as the merging of the spell lists. They can just copypasta the wizard spell list, add some sorcerer specific spells, and the write some actual class features for sorcerer. :smallmad:

So all in all, not noob friendly. 3 out of the 4 new sorcerers are kinda bad. The only good one is kinda nice for incapacitation, but that's about it.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-09, 02:30 PM

Not having the option to pick old Twinned in some shape or form means you actually should just play Wizard as Wizards of the Coast intended. :smalltongue:

Not having that single option makes the entire class unplayable does it? Weirdly, this is the first time I've ever been excited to play a Sorcerer (Just started one last Sunday). Twinned never crossed my mind. Picked Quicken and Heighten and Subtle and am perfectly happy with my options.

Also Sorcery Incarnate is hilariously bad and terribly offensive. It's a trap option. It is a spell, it takes a bonus action (which is means you can't follow up with a leveled spell), it is 5th level which is way overcosted even with subclass benefits, and takes concentration. It buffs attack rolls for spells, of which I cannot name 5 of that are on the sorcerer list and also are leveled.

It clearly is meant to be combined with whatever the Subclass gives and will add up to a more powerful option but all will share the base of giving back some SP and giving Advantage on spell attacks.

With the Subclass we do see, let's see. On the round I cast it I can now fly to position well and on that round, since I already cast a spell, let's toss a Sorcerous Burst. Which, thanks to my level 10 ability, is an attack roll against everything in a 15' cone (which, again, flight means I can angle into spheres and other fun shenanigans). Each of which I get advantage on for 3d6-8d6 damage and then an additional +5 against one target and then another +5 against anything around you. Seems not bad for a setup. Then next round start tossing bigger spells.

Considering a lot of "Build up" rounds consist of casting the spell and... waiting. This one let's you cast the spell, blast a group of enemies and have better positioning.

So all in all, not noob friendly. 3 out of the 4 new sorcerers are kinda bad. The only good one is kinda nice for incapacitation, but that's about it.

I assume you mean 3 of 4 spells? Since we don't have 4 new sorcerers... But just looking at them at a quick glance.

They now have a cantrip with potentially huge damage and changeable damage types meaning they can always work around resistance and immunity.

They have a level 1 that was always a fun spell, but now it can chain hop from one target to another.

Their level 3 is a self targeted level 2 Cure Wounds+Lesser Restoration.

Their level 4 is a localized Fireball with adjustable damage types and a rider. I think that's worth the loss of 2 dice overall.

We already talked about Incarnate.

Snowbluff

2023-05-09, 03:01 PM

Not having that single option makes the entire class unplayable does it? Weirdly, this is the first time I've ever been excited to play a Sorcerer (Just started one last Sunday). Twinned never crossed my mind. Picked Quicken and Heighten and Subtle and am perfectly happy with my options. It's not uplayable, it's just that WotC decided that a key value maker, and easily the metamagic with the most complex and varied applications, was the one that should be axed. It formed a large justification of sorcerer's relative value, and I don't think a lot of the metamagics really make spells stand out. Most of them, like heighten, just have you play the spell you normally would.

Also quicken is often overvalued. Seriously try Twinned sometime, maybe even tried the nerfed forking of the Twin/Repeat spells I suggest. You can get a lot of mileage out of them for a variety of ways that are unique to sorc, like being able to duplicate concentration buffs.

They now have a cantrip with potentially huge damage and changeable damage types meaning they can always work around resistance and immunity.

They have a level 1 that was always a fun spell, but now it can chain hop from one target to another.

Their level 3 is a self targeted level 2 Cure Wounds+Lesser Restoration.

Their level 4 is a localized Fireball with adjustable damage types and a rider. I think that's worth the loss of 2 dice overall.

We already talked about Incarnate.

Ok jees, I think I understand why you think Incarnate is good now. Here's the problem, the cantrip is bad. Well, not good at least. The exploding dice are not as valuable as you would think, probably a couple of damage. Think closer to a point of damage per die. Here is Treantmonk going over the average values of the exploding dice. (https://youtu.be/8ziHV1MbbL4?t=280)

Chaos bolt always did that and always sucked. 1/8 chance to bounce is not good.

The firebally one is, IMO, the good one.

For your combo that you have suggested with Incarnate, you could have just cast fireball, it would have done more damage, and saved your concentration and used a lower level slot. 8d6 would be the ceiling for the burst cantrip on a lucky roll, but for the fireball, that's the basic value.

EDIT: Oh wait you are right I did forget the healing spell. It's aight. It's not 2 cure wounds good (that would imply more healing), but I would hope spanning the gap from a 2nd to 3rd level and suffering a targeting limitation would cause a little more healing, or maybe be a bonus action.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-09, 03:43 PM

It's not uplayable, it's just that WotC decided that a key value maker, and easily the metamagic with the most complex and varied applications, was the one that should be axed.

Again, it was one option, one I never really saw a huge amount of talk about and while it had uses in general I saw people take Quicken and Heighten give or take.

Ok jees, I think I understand why you think Incarnate is good now. Here's the problem, the cantrip is bad. Well, not good at least. The exploding dice are not as valuable as you would think, probably a couple of damage. Think closer to a point of damage per die. Here is Treantmonk going over the average values of the exploding dice. (https://youtu.be/8ziHV1MbbL4?t=280)

Except it's not. It's weaker than Eldritch Blast but I'd say stands even with Firebolt. It is 2 damage lower on average, 4 on max, but you'll never once run into a situation where you can't use it as an attack option. Also, in that particular sublcass it's a single cantrip that attacks 1-6 or sometimes 8 targets. We'll have to see how the other subclasses work out, but so far so good.

It's a SP refresh, a buff going forward and it still lets you get a cantrip off. Compared to casting Haste or Mirror Image or any other buff or set up spell where unless you spend points on Quicken you... Cast your buff and do nothing.

Chaos bolt always did that and always sucked. 1/8 chance to bounce is not good.

It's a first level spell that deals 3-22 damage and can hit more. Compared to Chromatic Orb that just deals a flat 3-24, Magic Missile which deals 6-15 on an Auto Hit. Or Burning Hands that deals 3-18 to a few targets. It's comparable and even with other options at the level, exactly what is the issue?

For your combo that you have suggested with Incarnate, you could have just cast fireball, it would have done more damage, and saved your concentration and used a lower level slot. 8d6 would be the ceiling for the burst cantrip on a lucky roll, but for the fireball, that's the basic value.

You seem to think I'm valuing the exploding more than I am, but let's look at the options.

Yours:
Round 1: Cast Fireball, deal 40 Fire damage to some critters and 20 to some others. Then do something on your Bonus Actions and you're done.
Round 2: You still have no buffs, act as you wish.

Mine:
Round 1: Cast Sorcery Incarnate, gain 1d4 SP back, fly up taking myself out of potential melee range. Move over targets, make attack rolls with advantage against them for 3d6 each with an extra +5 to one of those, some extra damage here and there where the dice do explode, then another 5 damage to everything around me.
Round 2: Continue to deal 5 damage to everything around you, get advantage on all spell attacks and be able to apply multiple Metamagics as you see fit. This will continue 8 more rounds after.

Edit for your edit. :)
It's a level 3 Spell that gives the equivalent of 2 level 2 spells. A level 2 cure wounds heals 2d8+Stat this heals 2d6+stat, it's a tiny dip that can probably go away, And it then casts Lesser Restoration. It's not broken or OMG OP, but it is a very solid self sustain option. It's not as good as what a Cleric could provide, but it shouldn't be.

Hurrashane

2023-05-09, 03:47 PM

Ok jees, I think I understand why you think Incarnate is good now. Here's the problem, the cantrip is bad. Well, not good at least. The exploding dice are not as valuable as you would think, probably a couple of damage. Think closer to a point of damage per die. Here is Treantmonk going over the average values of the exploding dice. (https://youtu.be/8ziHV1MbbL4?t=280)

Maybe not as valuable but it looks like a lot of fun.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-09, 04:07 PM

Maybe not as valuable but it looks like a lot of fun.

Exploding Dice don't need to be steadily reliable to be awesome at the table.

I run a Deadlands Classic game. Long Story Short stats and skill checks involve rolling 1-5dX and taking the single best die, but dice explode. So in general you have a steady range of "Please roll Cognition" with results of 5, 7, 3, 9... Or "Please make a shooting roll as you attack" "I got an 8." "Alright, that hits."

But then every so often you get "I got a 47!" And the table laughs and the Game Master now has to figure out how to handle this ridiculous level of success and luck.

In a lesser note, I will likely not explode dice often. My damage will steadily be in the 3-4 per dice range with a slightly less common 9 per dice. But every once in a while the DM is going to ask me to roll damage and I'm going to get to say "I dealt 36 X damage" off a cantrip.

Also, again, with the new Sorc Bloodline. At level 10 I'm attacking everything in a cone, so more attacks = more chances for dice to explode = more chances for amusingly high numbers.

Snowbluff

2023-05-09, 04:10 PM

Again, it was one option, one I never really saw a huge amount of talk about and while it had uses in general I saw people take Quicken and Heighten give or take.

Compared to casting Haste or Mirror Image or any other buff or set up spell where unless you spend points on Quicken you... Cast your buff and do nothing. This might be a pretty good example of using twinned (which probably deserves nerfing but not removal). You probably shouldn't be casting Mirror Image mid combat for a variety of reasons, and probably never cast haste on yourself unless you're a bladesinger(and/or probably TWFing/Xbowing to drop the lost attacks on turn 1 to 1). If you're a caster, throwing a *twinned* haste on 2 of your more stabbing oriented friends is both very cost efficient, but also quite potent in general.

Heighten is good though, I don't don't think it changes how I would weigh different spells against eachother.

It's a first level spell that deals 3-22 damage and can hit more. Compared to Chromatic Orb that just deals a flat 3-24, Magic Missile which deals 6-15 on an Auto Hit. Or Burning Hands that deals 3-18 to a few targets. It's comparable and even with other options at the level, exactly what is the issue? I think a large part of the problem is that you have to hit and that it is only a single target. Thunderwave and Burning Hands both can hit multiple targets without modification, and will basically always do at least some damage. Considering now Chaos Bolt, which will have a 1/8 chance to bounce, and then you have to roll to hit *again* to do damage to a second target.

Also you can take the averages of the dice to reduce confusion. Chaos bolt does 12.5 (4.5x2+3.5) damage on average. Magic missile does 10.5 ((2.5+1)x3) And doesn't have to hit. Mind you, I don't think first level spells are very good for shooting people to begin with.

Maybe not as valuable but it looks like a lot of fun. I agree, which is why I think exploding dice should be a class feature instead of a separate, pretty meh spell.

Kane0

2023-05-09, 04:50 PM

I agree, which is why I think exploding dice should be a class feature instead of a separate, pretty meh spell.

Oh now thats an idea. Any sorcerer spell or class ability roll can explode as a class feature...
That would make for some interesting blaster and healer builds, plus would add value to empower metamagic. Even stuff like sleep, false life and clockwork's bastion of law

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-09, 05:03 PM

This might be a pretty good example of using twinned (which probably deserves nerfing but not removal). You probably shouldn't be casting Mirror Image mid combat for a variety of reasons, and probably never cast haste on yourself unless you're a bladesinger(and/or probably TWFing/Xbowing to drop the lost attacks on turn 1 to 1). If you're a caster, throwing a *twinned* haste on 2 of your more stabbing oriented friends is both very cost efficient, but also quite potent in general.

Except we're talking about the comparison of using Sorcerous Incarnate vs just a blast spell or another buff, so the discussion is moot, unless you're ceding the point and moving on, in which case cool.

But even with your set up. two martials getting one extra attack each for 10 rounds vs guaranteed damage, flight and advantage on all my spell attacks for 10 rounds.

Heighten is good though, I don't don't think it changes how I would weigh different spells against eachother.

The quote comment was me comparing Heighten to Twinned. Nothing to do with weighing spells against each other.

I think a large part of the problem is that you have to hit and that it is only a single target. Thunderwave and Burning Hands both can hit multiple targets without modification, and will basically always do at least some damage.

So just to be clear you feel Chromatic Orb is also bad? For the record they all have some limitation on purpose. Running down the 1st level damage options (I might miss one or two).

Chromatic Orb: Spell Attack, Variable Damage Type, 3d8 Damage.
Chaos Bolt: Spell Attack, Variable Damage Type, 2d8+3d6 Damage with a chance to hit more targets.
Magic Missile: Guaranteed Hit, Force Damage, 3d4+3 Damage divided amongst 1-3 targets.
Burning Hands: 3d6 Fire damage, some guaranteed damage but a 15' range means essentially moving into Melee. Realistically only going to hit 2 Targets.
Earth Tremor: 10' from you must save for 1d6 Bludgeoning Damage and Prone.
Ice Knife: Attack roll for 1d10 Piercing and then a small AOE for 2d6 Cold.
Tasha's Caustic Brew: 30' Line deals 2d4 damage for 10 rounds. Or until they give up an action to stop it.
ThunderWave: Con Save for 2d8 Thunder, but against must be in Melee.
Witchbolt: Spell Attack for 1d12 damage and then can use action to auto hit 9 more times over 1 minute.

So looking at ALL damage Options. Chromatic Orb is the Highest at 3-24 and takes a Spell Attack. Chaos Bolt is just barely below that at 3-22. Ice Knife is possibly 3-22 but essentially requires two rolls. Meanwhile the AoE and Save spells all require you to be very close no matter what.

I'm just not seeing why the spell is so bad in your eyes.

Considering now Chaos Bolt, which will have a 1/8 chance to bounce, and then you have to roll to hit *again* to do damage to a second target.

Which, again, is an extra that you're taking the chance for in exchange for 1 damage on average compared to Chromatic and still significantly higher than the other Spell Attack options.

Snowbluff

2023-05-09, 07:39 PM

Oh now thats an idea. Any sorcerer spell or class ability roll can explode as a class feature...
That would make for some interesting blaster and healer builds, plus would add value to empower metamagic. Even stuff like sleep, false life and clockwork's bastion of law
Yep. Imagine being allowed to combine your spells with your class features, and for each new spell option to have things unique or at least fun to do with it as a sorcerer. Also if Draconic Exhalation could be used with any attack roll cantrip, I would much prefer it. Breathing Ray of Frost on people would be rad.

The same applies to the other features that are spells basically. These would be better as class features.

Except we're talking about the comparison of using Sorcerous Incarnate vs just a blast spell or another buff, so the discussion is moot, unless you're ceding the point and moving on, in which case cool.

But even with your set up. two martials getting one extra attack each for 10 rounds vs guaranteed damage, flight and advantage on all my spell attacks for 10 rounds.I chose not to comment on your sorcerous incarnate statement because the math didn't pan out in Incarnate's favor. Fireball Does 27 damage. Draconic Exhalation would do, taking into account exploding dice, would be 12.6 (4.2x3). If we add the *fifth level spell* Incarnate you're on a 14th level caster, that's 17.6. Oh and one person is taking 22.6 damage which is still less than a fifth level, subclassless sorcerer. It gets sillier when you look at how monster saves can scale, and by 14th level you have an 18 save DC on your fireball, so you're not really concerned with monsters hitting the 15% chance for half.
(https://old.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/anxn5e/average_monster_save_bonuses_by_cr_mtof_not/)

Of course, I think making it a class feature and moving the associated subclass features down would give it more parity.

The quote comment was me comparing Heighten to Twinned. Nothing to do with weighing spells against each other. I was using the point to illustrate why twin was good.

I'm just not seeing why the spell is so bad in your eyes.

Which, again, is an extra that you're taking the chance for in exchange for 1 damage on average compared to Chromatic and still significantly higher than the other Spell Attack options.
Again, I'm not a fan of most 1st level blasting spells. Chromatic Orb has the benefit of being able to choose its damage type without randomness, however. The application I see for Orb most is on draconic sorcerers so they can get a little bit of bonus damage for their subtype. Chaos Bolt has like a 1/4 chance of whiffing the bonus damage, sadly.

Also I hope I don't have to tell anyone why Witchbolt is pretty obviously bad, right? :smalltongue:

Amechra

2023-05-09, 07:45 PM

You could cast fireball, and then spend 3 sp every turn to keep casting fireball until you run out of sorcery points or get bored and do something else.

Unfortunately it does specify that you had to spend a spell slot on the spell, so 3sp Fireball spam is not in the cards. :smallfrown:

A very cool, but massive, headache.

It's bad enough when the players want sidekicks. I couldn't imagine the logistics and 4 hour fights when the party Fighter adds six additional mooks on top of it all.

I'm assuming that you're also on the "summoning massively slows down the game" side of things? Because it's essentially the same thing.

Hurrashane

2023-05-09, 07:47 PM

I don't mind the sorcerer's ones being spells. Means they can metamagic them

Snowbluff

2023-05-09, 08:13 PM

I don't mind the sorcerer's ones being spells. Means they can metamagic them

I mean, you could just metamagic a spell that's under the effect of a "Chaotic Exploding Dice" or "This Spell is Now also Chaining like Chaos" or "Sorcery Incarnate but it's a 3 SP" class feature. Sorcery Incarnate in particular neither upcasts nor really benefits from most metamagic itself, so I don't see an upside to it being a spell.

I can see someone actually upcasting or metamagicking the self heal and the 5e Wings of Flurry, however.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-09, 08:19 PM

Yep. Imagine being allowed to combine your spells with your class features, and for each new spell option to have things unique or at least fun to do with it as a sorcerer. Also if Draconic Exhalation could be used with any attack roll cantrip, I would much prefer it. Breathing Ray of Frost on people would be rad.

Would support that.

I chose not to comment on your sorcerous incarnate statement because the math didn't pan out in Incarnate's favor. Fireball Does 27 damage. Draconic Exhalation would do, taking into account exploding dice, would be 12.6 (4.2x3). If we add the *fifth level spell* Incarnate you're on a 14th level caster, that's 17.6. Oh and one person is taking 22.6 damage which is still less than a fifth level, subclassless sorcerer. It gets sillier when you look at how monster saves can scale, and by 14th level you have an 18 save DC on your fireball,

Yes, Fireball does more damage than using Sorcerous Burst with Dragon Breath. I'm starting to question this debate with how you seem to singularly focused on 1 round damage.

My argument is NOT "Sorcerous Incarnate + Sorcerous Burst does more damage than fireball". My Argument is a 5th level spell casting a combination of the Fly Spell (3rd level) AND Dealing some AOE Damage (1st level spell equivalent) AND giving Advantage to EVERY attack roll (+5 essentially to attacks) AND gives you 1-4 more Sorcery Points to use later. AND lets you double up on Metamagic is not weak or bad.

If you genuinely only play in games that involve throwing big numbers with no combat complexity or tactics or positioning, cool, Fireball always wins. But If you have to move, have things to consider other than throwing big DPS the spell works very well.

Your argument is akin to sitting there and going "Eladrin's Fey Step is garbage, it can only deal 6 amage at best to like 4 creatures, Dragonborn Breath deals 1-4d10 to up to 8 creatures."

Of course, I think making it a class feature and moving the associated subclass features down would give it more parity.

If it's a Class ability it can't benefit from Metamagic.

I was using the point to illustrate why twin was good.

I don't believe anyone said Twin was bad, only that losing it wasn't the super death blow of the Sorcerer as you stated, nor did it mean Wizards doesn't want people to play Sorc.

Again, I'm not a fan of most 1st level blasting spells. Chromatic Orb has the benefit of being able to choose its damage type without randomness, however. The application I see for Orb most is on draconic sorcerers so they can get a little bit of bonus damage for their subtype. Chaos Bolt has like a 1/4 chance of whiffing the bonus damage, sadly.

Not being a fan of the spells in general is not the same as acknowledging if they're weak or not on the curve of other spells that do the same. As an aside, I've rarely seen a Dragon Sorc lean into Chromatic orb for those reasons, there's better options if you want to theme a specific damage type. But I have seen it as an option that can cover literally any damage vulnerability or immunity or resistance.

Also I hope I don't have to tell anyone why Witchbolt is pretty obviously bad, right? :smalltongue:

Not at all, it was listed along withe very other 1st level spell that deals damage. Though you taking a dig there does suggest something.

Snowbluff

2023-05-09, 08:34 PM

My argument is NOT "Sorcerous Incarnate + Sorcerous Burst does more damage than fireball". My Argument is a 5th level spell casting a combination of the Fly Spell (3rd level) AND Dealing some AOE Damage (1st level spell equivalent) AND giving Advantage to EVERY attack roll (+5 essentially to attacks) AND gives you 1-4 more Sorcery Points to use later. AND lets you double up on Metamagic is not weak or bad.

If you genuinely only play in games that involve throwing big numbers with no combat complexity or tactics or positioning, cool, Fireball always wins. But If you have to move, have things to consider other than throwing big DPS the spell works very well.

No, I would say that spending a 5th level slot is probably not worth it compared to quickening Fly either. That also comes online long before Sorcery Incarnate before the pretty ridiculously huge gap that the subclass improvement comes up. Mind you, you still lose time not being immediately effective and buffing yourself, but fly also lasts 10x as long. You would be more able to cast it ahead of time, before combat. My point is, it's not a good damage combo for the cost, which we both agree is absurd.

If it's a Class ability it can't benefit from Metamagic. What metamagic would you use on it? Most of them already apply. It doesn't do damage, it's already a bonus action, it can only be countered because it is a spell, and repeating it would be a net negative on spell points.

Not being a fan of the spells in general is not the same as acknowledging if they're weak or not on the curve of other spells that do the same. As an aside, I've rarely seen a Dragon Sorc lean into Chromatic orb for those reasons, there's better options if you want to theme a specific damage type. But I have seen it as an option that can cover literally any damage vulnerability or immunity or resistance.

Not at all, it was listed along withe very other 1st level spell that deals damage. Though you taking a dig there does suggest something.

I don't think every energy type has equallygood coverage for spell damage. Lightning has Witchbolt, which is marginally better than a cantrip until level 5.

Hurrashane

2023-05-09, 09:11 PM

What metamagic would you use on it? Most of them already apply. It doesn't do damage, it's already a bonus action, it can only be countered because it is a spell, and repeating it would be a net negative on spell points.

Extend to make it last longer and be harder to knock you out of, also good if you're using it to fly.

Subtle so you can cast it unnoticed before combat starts.

Repeating if you cast it last turn and then got your concentration broken.

Also subtle sorcerous burst with the exhalation subclass ability so you can mimic a real dragon

Subtle arcane eruption could make for one hell of a combat starter.

Witty Username

2023-05-09, 09:19 PM

Unfortunately it does specify that you had to spend a spell slot on the spell, so 3sp Fireball spam is not in the cards. :smallfrown:

I expect that will be pretty common houserule/uncaught play mistake. Maybe something to mention in the surveys (If you are willing to shell out for Beyond), since that would be a pretty easy one to argue on speed of play or intuitiveness.

Snowbluff

2023-05-09, 09:56 PM

Speaking of speed of play, I dunno how I feel about rolling to hit each person in the cone of Draconic Exhalation. That could make it take a fair bit longer to resolve on your part. If you crit, would you have to roll the extra damage dice separately for each crit?

Repeating if you cast it last turn and then got your concentration broken.
But it being broken would be a consequence of it being a spell. If it wasn't a spell, I wouldn't have to concentrate on it. .-.

Also subtle sorcerous burst with the exhalation subclass ability so you can mimic a real dragon
Finally, our dreams become realized.

Witty Username

2023-05-09, 10:32 PM

Kane0

2023-05-09, 10:43 PM

It is already the (admittedly kinda weird) expectation that damage is rolled once for spells when it effects multiple creatures. Rolling one attack is probably a pretty safe rulling, even if it is not the actual rules.
I am pretty sure that is how 4e did it, and I know that is how Star Wars Saga did it. It didn't make stuff all that more or less powerful.

Yeah in 4e attacker usually rolled, saving throws turned into NADs (not-AC-defenses), which was 10+ bonus same as AC. Felt a bit wierd when you fired off your first Int vs Reflex fireball, but after that was good.

Hurrashane

2023-05-09, 10:53 PM

But it being broken would be a consequence of it being a spell. If it wasn't a spell, I wouldn't have to concentrate on it. .-.

That's fair.

I wonder if it'd be too strong as a class ability. Counterless, concentrationless, free sorcery points and a buff. Like even if you don't want to use it in combat you could use it to grant sorcery points. How often would or should you be able to do this as a class ability? Once for free then any additional times with a spell slot of 5th or higher? PB/LR? Cha/LR?

Sindal

2023-05-09, 11:51 PM

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-09, 11:53 PM

It's a 15' Cone for Sorcerous Burst as a Breath Weapon. I'm pretty sure the max possible set up is 8 targets. So same as a Action surging Fighter. But usually I imagine you'll get between 2-5 and that's not unreasonable to roll those.

Witty Username

2023-05-10, 12:12 AM

Yeah in 4e attacker usually rolled, saving throws turned into NADs (not-AC-defenses), which was 10+ bonus same as AC. Felt a bit wierd when you fired off your first Int vs Reflex fireball, but after that was good.

Its one of the few things I understood (mostly) in 4e because its how Star Wars Saga did it, the only difference was Saga also removed AC (Ref def was what Saga used instead, with armor replacing the classes Ref def bonus, unless they had a talent that allow them to stack).

Kane0

2023-05-10, 12:34 AM

Out of interest

What are thr level 5 arcane spell bombs in everyone's opinion

I haven't spent too much time in that power level ans I'm curious what people generally cast for arcane casters around that level

Asking because I want something equivalent to compare incarnation with.

Ive used bigbys hand myself, but animate objects is a big one. Synaptic static and Wall of Force also deserve special mention.

Cone of cold and cloudkill ive seen used by enemies/NPCs mostly, theyre kinda mediocre.

Immolation is hilarious, but not terribly effective. Best used to stunt on people.

Theodoxus

2023-05-10, 11:17 AM

Out of interest

What are thr level 5 arcane spell bombs in everyone's opinion

I haven't spent too much time in that power level ans I'm curious what people generally cast for arcane casters around that level

Asking because I want something equivalent to compare incarnation with.

In my experience, it's mostly upcast spells. For arcanists, a 12d6 Fireball is the go to for a typical 5th level combat slot, unless Cone of Cold would be better (fire resistance is a thing, after all). For clerics, it's almost always an upcast Spirit Guardians, which I suppose is relevant for this discussion for Divine Souls.

Pixel_Kitsune

2023-05-10, 12:12 PM

Out of interest

What are thr level 5 arcane spell bombs in everyone's opinion

I haven't spent too much time in that power level ans I'm curious what people generally cast for arcane casters around that level

Asking because I want something equivalent to compare incarnation with.

Aside from Bigby's I think the big ones are Hold Monster, Summon Draconic Spirit and Telekinesis. And I do think those are a bit more useful than just the base Sorcery Incarnate. Though even there there's places where the extra SP or the Advantage on all Spell Attacks would be very useful.

But I do think it's meant to be a small buff at level 9 and then a larger buff at level 14 with whatever the subclass brings to it. (I don't think the Draconic Sorcery will be unique).

Sindal

2023-05-11, 04:50 AM

Hmm

Doing a bit of theoretical make believe

It appears sorcerors will get their features at lvl 3, 6, 10 and 14 (instead of 1, 6, 14 and 18). The features are mostly thr same but tweaked.

Assuming divine soul (my favourite) makes the initial cut, the revamp could be:

Lvl3: acces to divine(or some of it) spell list. Sorveror is allowed a one time ability to switch any number of arcane spells known with divine spells. Favoured by the gods can fit in too.

Lvl6: empowered healing mostly unchanged, though perhaps removing the sp requirement or increasing it's range . Or perhaps a unique interaction with sorceror vitality

Lvl10: this is where dragons got their breath sorceror blast. Radiant or necrotic damage types added maybe? Explosive dice sometimes smite?

Lvl14: divine souls get wings at this feature ad well, so I imagine it carries over. Perhaps they also get a beneficial aura of some kind, or a repeatable action based heal while in this form.

Back to incarnation itself though
Spells like telekinesis, animated objects, bigby and the like can be pretty impacted. Incarnation doesn't have its own specific purpose because magicing a little better, but I think it's still worthwhile to have in your toolbox incase what incarnation does is what you need. Which is the natural for spells in general I think.

I more think the idea itself is really cool. I appreciate the option being available